Party of One: Unpopular TV Opinions

[DoctorAtomic]

Firefly is good, but not as great as fandom thinks. I liked it. I think a lot of it is the meddling by the network and people think it had the potential to be something better had it had the chance, and I think that's fair. It did have enough moments where I think that's justified. I mean, me and six other people watched Fringe, and with seemingly no interference, and in the same timeslot, it ran 5 seasons. It was fantastic. 

It may be that a show like Firefly was better suited to the streaming landscape we have now than a network show. With less pressure on ratings from a netflix or hbo max, it might have had a good run. 

Farscape was minute to minute better than Firefly for me hands down. 

[Wiendish Fitch]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Farscape was minute to minute better than Firefly for me hands down. 

Babylon 5 was, to me, 1,000 times the show Firefly was. You know what I've also noticed? The characters on Babylon 5 were also 1,000 times better than the ones on  Firefly. The men weren't a bunch of toxic, posturing assholes, and the women weren't a bunch of male fantasies made flesh.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: Marcus Cole could wipe the floor with Mal Reynolds (though I suspect Vir Cotto could easily hand Mal's ass to him).

[DoctorAtomic]

I'm not defending Firefly, but it is a bit unfair, as you're talking vastly different shows. Really, the only commonality is space. I brought up Farscape because both at least featured a main cast of outlaws. 

To be fair, Londo is my favorite on B5, but he did kind of start out a womanizer. 

[BlackberryJam]

3 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I'm not defending Firefly, but it is a bit unfair, as you're talking vastly different shows. Really, the only commonality is space. I brought up Farscape because both at least featured a main cast of outlaws. 

To be fair, Londo is my favorite on B5, but he did kind of start out a womanizer. 

Londo had three wives that he treated like crap and thought Narns were inferior beings. He was a misogynist and a racist, but yeah, he learned and got better. He had a lot of charm and self-awareness, which made him likable, but “kind of a womanizer” is putting it mildly.

I loved me some B5, and I really enjoyed Londo and G’Kar. 

Unpopular opinion, Farscape was fine. Just fine, but nothing remarkable. 

[Danny Franks]

20 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Firefly is good, but not as great as fandom thinks. I liked it. I think a lot of it is the meddling by the network and people think it had the potential to be something better had it had the chance, and I think that's fair. It did have enough moments where I think that's justified. I mean, me and six other people watched Fringe, and with seemingly no interference, and in the same timeslot, it ran 5 seasons. It was fantastic. 

It may be that a show like Firefly was better suited to the streaming landscape we have now than a network show. With less pressure on ratings from a netflix or hbo max, it might have had a good run. 

Farscape was minute to minute better than Firefly for me hands down. 

If Firefly had run for multiple seasons, people would have the same love/hate relationship with it that they have for most long-running shows.

There was some problematic stuff in there that would have really begun to grate, if it had been allowed to grow - 

Inara and Mal, for one. A 'will they, won't they' set up with explicit and clear reasons it can never, ever work - she's a sex worker who isn't ashamed (although she was apparently going to be revealed to have some incurable disease, because sluts gotta be punished, right?) and he was a prude who though her occupation was disgusting.

Whedon would have fucked with Zoe and Wash, he would have drawn out Kaylee and Simon, because he advocates "never give the fans what they want, always give them what they need."

River would have been an odd character to develop. What is there for her after the Alliance is done hunting her? How does she grow and change without just becoming a quirky girl who beats people up?

I also really think there's only so long you can show a plucky but down-on-their-luck crew of misfits before you have to change the dynamics - they need to win, not just to scrabble and survive, or it gets depressing to watch.

 

[DoctorAtomic]

I don't know. I didn't get love/hate with Farscape. There's some elements to criticize, but I think they did fairly well. 

25 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

I also really think there's only so long you can show a plucky but down-on-their-luck crew of misfits before you have to change the dynamics - they need to win, not just to scrabble and survive, or it gets depressing to watch.

That's fair, and, again, why I liked Farscape. They were nuclear terrorists by the end of the fourth season. 

[Danny Franks]

3 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I don't know. I didn't get love/hate with Farscape. There's some elements to criticize, but I think they did fairly well. 

That's fair, and, again, why I liked Farscape. They were nuclear terrorists by the end of the fourth season. 

With Farscape, by season 4 I had stopped caring about John/Aeryn. The angst had been too heavy and it had just killed the relationship for me. I wanted them both to move on, although it was obviously not going to happen.

I also really, really hated everything with Jothee, and the way the show slowly ruined Sikozu after introducing her as such an interesting character.

[Wiendish Fitch]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

If Firefly had run for multiple seasons, people would have the same love/hate relationship with it that they have for most long-running shows.

There was some problematic stuff in there that would have really begun to grate, if it had been allowed to grow - 

Inara and Mal, for one. A 'will they, won't they' set up with explicit and clear reasons it can never, ever work - she's a sex worker who isn't ashamed (although she was apparently going to be revealed to have some incurable disease, because sluts gotta be punished, right?) and he was a prude who though her occupation was disgusting.

Whedon would have fucked with Zoe and Wash, he would have drawn out Kaylee and Simon, because he advocates "never give the fans what they want, always give them what they need."

Too true! Joss seems to operate under the same mindset as the Game of Thrones writers: "Always leave 'em disappointed!"

I really hate the characters on Firefly more and more in hindsight. Mal was misogynistic scum, and Inara was too good for him. Jayne and Simon sucked, too (just in different ways), and Wash was, at best,  blandly amusing (though Alan Tudyck is a good voice-over actor). Shepherd Book... eh, who cares?

Kaylee was a nauseating little Cool Girl, and don't get me started on my deep-seated LOATHING of River.

Zoe was fine, I guess. 

 

 

[Annber03]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

If Firefly had run for multiple seasons, people would have the same love/hate relationship with it that they have for most long-running shows.

Yeah, this is one thing I think it's always good for fans of shows that didn't last very long to keep in mind. As much as we may want these shows to last longer (and I'm the sort who can still manage to find things to enjoy about all seasons of my favorite long-running shows, myself, no matter how goofy they get as time goes on), sometimes it is for the best that they didn't stay on very long. 

[proserpina65]

3 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

If Firefly had run for multiple seasons, people would have the same love/hate relationship with it that they have for most long-running shows.

There was some problematic stuff in there that would have really begun to grate, if it had been allowed to grow - 

Inara and Mal, for one. A 'will they, won't they' set up with explicit and clear reasons it can never, ever work - she's a sex worker who isn't ashamed (although she was apparently going to be revealed to have some incurable disease, because sluts gotta be punished, right?) and he was a prude who though her occupation was disgusting.

Whedon would have fucked with Zoe and Wash, he would have drawn out Kaylee and Simon, because he advocates "never give the fans what they want, always give them what they need."

River would have been an odd character to develop. What is there for her after the Alliance is done hunting her? How does she grow and change without just becoming a quirky girl who beats people up?

I also really think there's only so long you can show a plucky but down-on-their-luck crew of misfits before you have to change the dynamics - they need to win, not just to scrabble and survive, or it gets depressing to watch.

 

All of this may be true, but maybe not, and we'll never know.  I do absolutely agree with the last sentence though.

2 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Zoe was fine, I guess.

Zoe and Wash made the show for me.  I'll never forgive Whedon for what he did to Wash in the movie.  Never.

 

1 hour ago, Annber03 said:

Yeah, this is one thing I think it's always good for fans of shows that didn't last very long to keep in mind. As much as we may want these shows to last longer (and I'm the sort who can still manage to find things to enjoy about all seasons of my favorite long-running shows, myself, no matter how goofy they get as time goes on), sometimes it is for the best that they didn't stay on very long. 

True.  This way we can ponder how the show might have developed its potential without ever being disappointed if it didn't.

[DearEvette]

2 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

If Firefly had run for multiple seasons, people would have the same love/hate relationship with it that they have for most long-running shows.

There was some problematic stuff in there that would have really begun to grate, if it had been allowed to grow - 

This is so true true. If Sleepy Hollow has gotten cancelled after Season 1, I would still remember it fondly and re-watch it happily.  But it went on and really ruined itself so that it also has retroactively ruined my desire to even go back and watch season 1.

I am a fan of the Firefly, mostly because of Zoe and Walsh. But it was definitely problematic in places most especially in regards to the women.  They each fulfilled, imo, a male fantasy archetype.  Even when it was on tv and happening in real time, I had major issues with how the Companions/sex workers were positioned in the show.  For me that was the biggest waste of opportunity, imagination and world building.  If Joss were a real feminist the perception and treatment of Inara would have been very different in show.  But that is a whole other topic.  LOL.

 

[BlackberryJam]

Isn't this the same with My So Called Life? The show was fine, just fine, but because it ended so quickly it has status it likely doesn't deserve.

I enjoy Firefly because of the possibility of what it could have been, not the reality of what it actually was.

I feel the same way about Sleepy Hollow. 

But back to unpopular opinions, while I sort of enjoyed Elementary, I don't like most Sherlock adaptations, and thought the Benedict Cumberbatch version was dull. 

[Crs97]

For the plethora of parts she gets, I assume most people think Lucy Liu is a talented actress.  My belief is that she must have a treasure trove of compromising photos of people in power.  Has she ever shown a second emotion?  Or a first for that matter?  Not a fan.

[DoctorAtomic]

37 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Isn't this the same with My So Called Life? The show was fine, just fine, but because it ended so quickly it has status it likely doesn't deserve.

I'm not sure. It was a well regarded show at the time iirc. I mean, Jordan Catalano. How he leans.

15 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

For the plethora of parts she gets, I assume most people think Lucy Liu is a talented actress.

She was great on Futurama.

[Mabinogia]

4 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

I don't like most Sherlock adaptations, and thought the Benedict Cumberbatch version was dull. 

Blasphemy! Kidding. I love the BenBatch version, mostly because I have a disturbingly elaborate fantasy life revolving around Mark Gatiss' Mycroft but I will say, as much as I loved the show, it probably would have been better served not having the final season. You want to talk about a show going completely off the rails, down the river, over the shark and then around the bend... Euros might be the biggest mistake any show runners ever made. 

I never watched Elementary though, or the Robert Downey Jr movies, or any other adaptations really, now I think of it, though I love the books. Hmm. 

[Stats Queen]

The B5, Firefly and other shows:

Our late cats were named Talia and Lennier from Babylon 5

We have 3 cats now:

Malcolm - from Firefly

Jack - after Jack Harkness from Doctor Who

Rory - from Doctor Who.

So now we have 2 captains and a bat-shit crazy cat 

[elle]

8 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

But back to unpopular opinions, while I sort of enjoyed Elementary , I don't like most Sherlock adaptations, and thought the Benedict Cumberbatch version was dull. 

I initially was skeptical about Elementary but came around to really enjoying their take on Holmes/Watson.  

When I saw what the Benedict Cumberbatch version did to the Irene Adler character, I was furious.  If I could have thrown the tv, I would have.

And yes, the other show also changed Irene, but they kept her spirit of being Sherlock’s equal who could get the better of him.  Even with the mishmash, they didn’t assassinate her character as did the BBC.

7 minutes ago, Stats Queen said:

Rory - from Doctor Who.

That must mean he is the sweetest, most loyal cat you could ever want to have.
 

[Stats Queen]

6 minutes ago, elle said:

That must mean he is the sweetest, most loyal cat you could ever want to have.

Yes, Rory is indeed a sweetheart and is definitely most loyal to me.

He is also bat-shit crazy

Rory is my avatar. If you Zoom the picture you will realize those are not his actual back legs, but legs from a stuffed cow that he’s laying on.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Stats Queen

[sistermagpie]

13 minutes ago, elle said:

When I saw what the Benedict Cumberbatch version did to the Irene Adler character, I was furious.  If I could have thrown the tv, I would have.

 

Seconding this. It was like a little boy deciding to "fix" the story by explaining that Irene once put Sherlock in a slightly silly position that he himself didn't care about much, but then she fell in love with him and he caught her and he didn't love her back and eventually he saved her when she got herself into stupid trouble and she was forever besotted with him and trying to get his attention and he was just nice to her out of pity or something.

[elle]

24 minutes ago, Stats Queen said:

Yes, Rory is indeed a sweetheart and is definitely most loyal to me.

He is also bat-shit crazy

Aw!

Considering, what Dr. Who Rory went through (he’s plastic!), it is surprising that he didn’t go that way.

[elle]

15 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Seconding this. It was like a little boy deciding to "fix" the story by explaining that Irene once put Sherlock in a slightly silly position that he himself didn't care about much, but then she fell in love with him and he caught her and he didn't love her back and eventually he saved her when she got herself into stupid trouble and she was forever besotted with him and trying to get his attention and he was just nice to her out of pity or something.

I didn’t get that far into the story.  Once I heard of her new profession, I was so disgusted.  It was as if the writer couldn’t handle the strong woman as written by ACD and just picked up on the “oh, she was an actress “ let’s take that to the extreme demeaning implication of that term and then let’s make her an accomplice/victim of Moriarty.  Not enough suns to express my hate.

Irene Adler was never a victim.

[Hiyo]

Quote

Irene Adler was never a victim.

And was never romantically involved with Sherlock either.

Quote

They each fulfilled, imo, a male fantasy archetype

Joss does usually seem to have a preference for 3 types, the warrior goddess, the "loose" woman, and the socially awkward but super smart woman-child (with slight variations to each archetype).

[Ubiquit0us]

12 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Zoe and Wash made the show for me.  I'll never forgive Whedon for what he did to Wash in the movie.  Never.

Agreed. That is one reason I cannot be bothered ro watch Firefly again.

[Mabinogia]

17 hours ago, elle said:

I didn’t get that far into the story.  Once I heard of her new profession, I was so disgusted.

It just made me sad. original Irene Adler was a great, strong character who was a woman. I was just so disappointed that Moffat and Gatiss' idea of a strong woman had to involve sex. Like, the only way women can be powerful is if they control men by flashing their vag. I did burst out laughing at her nude scene though. Talk about desperate. I tend to skip that ep when I rewatch. 

[proserpina65]

On ‎02‎/‎24‎/‎2021 at 3:19 PM, DearEvette said:

This is so true true. If Sleepy Hollow has gotten cancelled after Season 1, I would still remember it fondly and re-watch it happily.  But it went on and really ruined itself so that it also has retroactively ruined my desire to even go back and watch season 1.

I didn't think it ruined itself.  Yes, Season 2 got taken over by the awfulness that was Katrina, although there were still episodes which I enjoyed.  But it righted itself pretty well with Season 3, and if Season 4 wasn't nearly as good, it still was mostly good and had some clever moments.  I did hate the ending, though.  I mean, yeah, Season 1 was rather like lightning in a bottle, but the rest was still enjoyable to me, even if it didn't reach the same level.

I realize that this is often a highly unpopular opinion in certain sectors of the Sleepy Hollow fandom.  I'm fine with that.

On ‎02‎/‎24‎/‎2021 at 3:26 PM, BlackberryJam said:

But back to unpopular opinions, while I sort of enjoyed Elementary, I don't like most Sherlock adaptations, and thought the Benedict Cumberbatch version was dull. 

I liked some of the Cumberbatch episodes, but not enough to ever rewatch them, and I hated their Moriarty.  I did enjoy the first Sherlock Holmes movies, but the second one was crap.

On ‎02‎/‎25‎/‎2021 at 3:37 AM, Ubiquit0us said:

Agreed. That is one reason I cannot be bothered ro watch Firefly again.

I occasionally rewatch it, but I do lament Wash's ending whenever I do.

Edited February 26, 2021 by proserpina65

[BlackberryJam]

Just now, proserpina65 said:

I liked some of the Cumberbatch episodes, but not enough to ever rewatch them, and I hated their Moriarty.  I did enjoy the first Sherlock Holmes movies, but the second one was crap.

 

I really just don't enjoy the Sherlock character. He's so much of a pretentious snotrag that I just want the villains to win. And Cumberbatch just doesn't impress me. 

I always think of Michael Freeman as the porno guy from Love, Actually. 

[proserpina65]

4 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

I really just don't enjoy the Sherlock character. He's so much of a pretentious snotrag that I just want the villains to win. And Cumberbatch just doesn't impress me. 

I always think of Michael Freeman as the porno guy from Love, Actually. 

I liked Watson far more than Sherlock.  But not enough to keep watching after they made Mary some government superagent and then killed her off.

Martin Freeman, but yeah, me too.

[Wiendish Fitch]

Re: The depiction of Irene Adler on Sherlock.

How in the ever living hell did 2000s Irene Adler manage to be more old-fashioned and less interesting than OG Irene Adler, a female character written by a dude in the 1800s???! The mind reels. 

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

I really just don't enjoy the Sherlock character. He's so much of a pretentious snotrag that I just want the villains to win. And Cumberbatch just doesn't impress me. 

I like Cumberbatch fine as an actor, but I loathe his portrayal of Sherlock as a tiresomely smug, arrogant sociopath. ACD's Sherlock wasn't necessarily a saint, but he was at least reasonably civil, and he did give a crap about his fellow human beings!

I didn't appreciate what a spineless wet blanket they made Watson, and Moriarty was just embarrassing. It doesn't help that I don't like Andrew Scott.

[proserpina65]

3 minutes ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

It doesn't help that I don't like Andrew Scott.

The only thing I've ever liked him in was Pride.  And he was far enough from a main character in that.

[DoctorAtomic]

I think they did a good job with 'competent' Watson in the latest version. I don't like when they have him just 'there'. He basically was the one getting the cabs, the train, shooting people when he needed. I know he largely provided exposition to the reader, but I always so it as him thinking out loud off Holmes to kind of stimulate Holmes' train of thought - in terms of 'ruling out what is possible to get to the impossible.' I always thought Watson 'got' what Holmes was doing. 

In this one, I liked that Holmes had confidence in Watson to have his back so he could take some risks. 

I liked the modernized update with the use of cell phones, and the younger LeStat, again competent. To be fair, Holmes was written as kind of condescending - 

3 minutes ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

I like Cumberbatch fine as an actor, but I loathe his portrayal of Sherlock as a tiresomely smug, arrogant sociopath.

I actually liked it, and I think Cumberbatch nailed it. This portrayal of Mycroft was nearly exactly as I imagined him when I read the stories. Holmes has been reimagined a billion times, and will (should) continue to do so. Maybe next time he's a more close-to-the-vest-guy in public, but more friendly privately with Watson and LeStat. 

I think if anything, this latest version had to do All The Things. Irene. Silverton. Moriarity. The Falls. It almost gets in the way of telling the stories. 

I'd like to see something in a different time period next, and maybe more original stories. 

I actually used Holmes' monologue about 'backward reasoning' from A Study in Scarlet last class on Monday to illustrate inference in statistics. 

[supposebly]

I've been re-reading the originals recently and it made Moffat's Sherlock even more insufferable. They lamp shaded it, but he was an ass. I liked the first 2 seasons but these days, I can't remember why. The incessant queer-baiting, the terrible plots that made no sense, what they did to Mary, Irene Adler, and that stupid ending of season 3.

The Sherlock Holmes in the stories was kind. He didn't suffer fools lightly and made fun of stupidity (for example with the King of Bohemia or the red-haired man who was tricked into leaving his shop so the bad guy could dig into the vault of a bank). He was arrogant, and often impatient when Watson took his time to catch up, but he wasn't a sociopath. He ran when he thought a female client somewhere in the countryside was in danger and sometimes, he was wrong, or too late.

[BlackberryJam]

Also, Mark Gatiss will forever be that hilarious guy from The League of Gentleman. 

“Semen is such a persistent stain.”

[Crs97]

I have always been frustrated with the movie portrayals of Sherlock because he is essentially nice to his clients in the stories.

11 minutes ago, supposebly said:

The Sherlock Holmes in the stories was kind. He didn't suffer fools lightly and made fun of stupidity (for example with the King of Bohemia or the red-haired man who was tricked into leaving his shop so the bad guy could dig into the vault of a bank). He was arrogant, and often impatient when Watson took his time to catch up, but he wasn't a sociopath. He ran when he thought a female client somewhere in the countryside was in danger and sometimes, he was wrong, or too late.

Exactly.

I love Benedict Cumberbatch, but I don’t love their version of Sherlock.

[JimmyJabloon]

I refused to watch Sherlock for the longest time because I thought the actor looked like a reptile. But then I watched anyway. While I thought the show was fine, this was my least favourite Sherlock. Also, don’t get the hype around this moriarty either. He was alright but nothing great IMO.

 

A very unpopular GOT opinion- I never liked Daenerys. Also rhaegar. The guy humiliates his wife in front of hundreds and then abandons her and their kids because he wanted a teen. Glad Robert killed him. 
 

edited to add- I also didn’t hate the finale of GOT. Although that might have something to do with my sheer hatred for Dany and all Targaryens.

Edited February 26, 2021 by JimmyJabloon

[magicdog]

2 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

I really just don't enjoy the Sherlock character. He's so much of a pretentious snotrag that I just want the villains to win.

I'm curious on your thoughts on Basil Rathbone's portrayal of the character.  He's been my favorite older interpretation of the character, although I hated that Watson (Nigel Bruce) was made to be a doddering fool half the time.

[Kel Varnsen]

On 2/23/2021 at 2:52 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

Firefly is good, but not as great as fandom thinks. I liked it. I think a lot of it is the meddling by the network and people think it had the potential to be something better had it had the chance, and I think that's fair. It did have enough moments where I think that's justified. I mean, me and six other people watched Fringe, and with seemingly no interference, and in the same timeslot, it ran 5 seasons. It was fantastic. 

I feel like Fox gets way too much shit thrown at them over their treatment of Firefly. I think that even if they had given it their best timeslot, played the episodes in order and done a bunch of promotion it still would have been a hard sell to make that show a hit or even something that would likely get a second season. Plus as I hav mentioned before if you look back at the network schedule for that year there were no better timeslots.

On 2/24/2021 at 3:26 PM, BlackberryJam said:

Isn't this the same with My So Called Life? The show was fine, just fine, but because it ended so quickly it has status it likely doesn't deserve.

Maybe Freaks and Geeks too. I watched it again last summer and it is still amazing and I think if they had gotten a full 22 episode season they could have done some interesting stuff. But reading some of what Paul Feig wanted to do for season two some of it doesn't sound very good.

2 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

I really just don't enjoy the Sherlock character. He's so much of a pretentious snotrag that I just want the villains to win. 

I have liked watching Sherlock but I started to realize while watching the last few episodes on Netflix last year that Sherlock Holmes on that show reminds me too much of an old boss I had and it is annoying. The boss was super smart at his job, but he was also super arrogant, super pretentious, had terrible social skills and couldn't be bothered to his it if he thought someone wasn't as smart as him.

On 2/24/2021 at 11:42 AM, Danny Franks said:

I alsoreally think there's only so long you can show a plucky but down-on-their-luck crew of misfits before you have to change the dynamics - they need to win, not just to scrabble and survive, or it gets depressing to watch.

 

Whedon (and the discount available Whedon) somehow managed to pull that shit on Agents of Shield for 7 seasons. The main team was somehow underdogs, even when they basically had a magic jet/space ship, an Avengers level super hero and two scientists who were like the smartest people in the world.

[scarynikki12]

6 minutes ago, JimmyJabloon said:

Although that might have something to do with my sheer hatred for Dany and all Targaryens.

I think the Targaryens are one of the creepiest families in all of fiction. Even within the world of the show they were creepy as fuck and I never rooted for their restoration.

I am a Dany fan but that's due to her Villain's Journey. I went back and forth for the first couple of seasons because it seemed like the show was doing that thing where we were supposed to ignore any awful things she did because she was also on the receiving end of awful things. Season 3 was when I realized she was on the Villain's Journey and it made me love her. It also made me appreciate her earlier seasons more than I originally had. And I love that our expectations were turned against us. There are so many shows that take a character with a shit life or circumstance and say that it excuses their actions going forward no matter what they do. Or they do the Dexter thing where, yes, the character is killing people but their victims are equally awful or worse so it's ok!

The one thing I wish the show had changed is by having Dany burn a character who we knew to be unequivocally good or the audience loved when she arrived in Westeros. Instead it was the Tarlys who we didn't like. 

I also would have liked so see how she would have reacted to Grey Worm or Missandei requesting to leave. Jon and Davos were skeptical when Missandei insisted that Dany's followers could leave her any time they wished and she'd send them off with her blessing and we never got a follow up. When Grey Worm was injured at Casterly Rock I was hoping he would make such a request. I think that, at that point in the show, Dany would have said no. She may have dressed it up as wanting them to stay until she was on the throne but she would have said no. That would have been important for her character's progression and foreshadowing for the audience.

It is a shame the book series will never be finished.

[JimmyJabloon]

51 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

I think the Targaryens are one of the creepiest families in all of fiction. Even within the world of the show they were creepy as fuck and I never rooted for their restoration.

I am a Dany fan but that's due to her Villain's Journey. I went back and forth for the first couple of seasons because it seemed like the show was doing that thing where we were supposed to ignore any awful things she did because she was also on the receiving end of awful things. Season 3 was when I realized she was on the Villain's Journey and it made me love her. It also made me appreciate her earlier seasons more than I originally had. And I love that our expectations were turned against us. There are so many shows that take a character with a shit life or circumstance and say that it excuses their actions going forward no matter what they do. Or they do the Dexter thing where, yes, the character is killing people but their victims are equally awful or worse so it's ok!

The one thing I wish the show had changed is by having Dany burn a character who we knew to be unequivocally good or the audience loved when she arrived in Westeros. Instead it was the Tarlys who we didn't like. 

I also would have liked so see how she would have reacted to Grey Worm or Missandei requesting to leave. Jon and Davos were skeptical when Missandei insisted that Dany's followers could leave her any time they wished and she'd send them off with her blessing and we never got a follow up. When Grey Worm was injured at Casterly Rock I was hoping he would make such a request. I think that, at that point in the show, Dany would have said no. She may have dressed it up as wanting them to stay until she was on the throne but she would have said no. That would have been important for her character's progression and foreshadowing for the audience.

It is a shame the book series will never be finished.

Your reply has made me realize that maybe my hatred for targs and dany had more to do with her blind followers (in and out of the show) than their own actions. 

 

Never got the hype around their dynasty. Anyone can be a "conqueror" with pet nukes on their side. They had no talent or skill whatsoever. Just their incestuous bloodline. 

Even from show point of view I never understood why anyone would want targs back on the throne. They were crazy foreign invaders who caused more damage than anyone else.

 

 

As for dany, as I mentioned above maybe it was because it frustrated me that people couldn't see what she was becoming and still kept rooting for her. Her preachy nonsense about making, baking, icing and eating the wheel didn't help.

Also probably why I preferred last season dany because she was finally unabashedly doing what she really wanted.

 

I agree, I would have also liked to see someone we love being at the end of dany's wrath. But I guess at that point most characters we loved were int he north and they couldn't find anyone last minute. But it still worked a little bit, atleast to me because the tarly's hadn't really done much to be burned alive except reject her. Dickon's only fault was following his dad. 

And yes, I would have loved to see her reaction to her most loyal followers leaving. This rushing was really my one of the few gripes with the season.

 

Sorry if my reply doesn't make a lot of sense. I'm not very articulate.

[Blergh]

On 2/24/2021 at 2:26 PM, BlackberryJam said:

Isn't this the same with My So Called Life? The show was fine, just fine, but because it ended so quickly it has status it likely doesn't deserve.

 

 

Yes, I definitely think that it lived up to the old adage of 'leaving them wanting more instead of sticking around long after everyone's sick of it' ! It's hard to imagine that Angela would have stayed friends with Rayanne much longer than that initial year without either seriously attempting to give  Rayanne some kind of 'intervention' OR wondering if  she'd ultimately get dragged down staying friends with her  (and whether she truly would have accepted in the longterm Rayanne having slept with Jordan as a one-time fluke or even decided that that was IT for both her onetime bestie and love interest). Somehow not seeing those scenarios get depicted made the show more thought-provoking and real. 

[BlackberryJam]

3 hours ago, magicdog said:

I'm curious on your thoughts on Basil Rathbone's portrayal of the character.  He's been my favorite older interpretation of the character, although I hated that Watson (Nigel Bruce) was made to be a doddering fool half the time.

Well, seeing as my loathing of Sherlock started with the books, I don't watch every adaptation and I don't spend much time comparing them. It's all "Oh another Sherlock, miss me with that." I'm certain I saw the Hound of the Baskervilles though, and hated it. But that was like 35 years ago when I was a teen and my loathing of the smarter-than-everyone male detective was in its nascent stage.

 

3 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

I think the Targaryens are one of the creepiest families in all of fiction. Even within the world of the show they were creepy as fuck and I never rooted for their restoration.

I am a Dany fan but that's due to her Villain's Journey. I went back and forth for the first couple of seasons because it seemed like the show was doing that thing where we were supposed to ignore any awful things she did because she was also on the receiving end of awful things. Season 3 was when I realized she was on the Villain's Journey and it made me love her. It also made me appreciate her earlier seasons more than I originally had. And I love that our expectations were turned against us.

[SNIP]

It is a shame the book series will never be finished.

The Targaryens were terrible. I mean, their motto was basically "Let us burn people and watch them bleed" and they did it for kicks. Dany was on a Villain's Journey and it drives me nuts that people didn't see it.

On the other hand, is it really a shame the book series will never be finished? Is it? Because I'm not sure I could slog my way through 2000 pages of Greyjoys and the history of House Cerwyn just to end with that pile that was the last 15 minutes of the show. 

[scarynikki12]

3 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

On the other hand, is it really a shame the book series will never be finished? Is it? Because I'm not sure I could slog my way through 2000 pages of Greyjoys and the history of House Cerwyn just to end with that pile that was the last 15 minutes of the show. 

Bestie 1’s sister is convinced that Dany: wins the throne, marries Jon, has healthy children, and all of Westeros cheers her on. She refuses to believe that any part of Dany’s story after she leaves Essos made it onto the show. I want the final books for her. 

[BlackberryJam]

5 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

Bestie 1’s sister is convinced that Dany: wins the throne, marries Jon, has healthy children, and all of Westeros cheers her on. She refuses to believe that any part of Dany’s story after she leaves Essos made it onto the show. I want the final books for her. 

You mean crazyass Dany who burns people and has a family tree that's a straight line will marry her nephew and have normal, noncrazy healthy children and the people of Westeros are going to be grateful that she brings her weapons of mass dragonstruction to down to literally burn the place down? 

I appreciate stanning that hardcore.

If I have my stan-ending, we go with Jaime, the first impression of which from Jon is "that's what a king should look like," taking the throne after everyone decides Dany is crazy, Jon won't be accepted, the Starks are too dour and quite frankly, he's the only one whose been raised to be a king, and he'll marry Brienne and they'll have a passel of honorable blond warrior children with strong moral centers and diverse genes. *stans hard*

[Annber03]

7 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

I didn't think it ruined itself.  Yes, Season 2 got taken over by the awfulness that was Katrina, although there were still episodes which I enjoyed.  But it righted itself pretty well with Season 3, and if Season 4 wasn't nearly as good, it still was mostly good and had some clever moments.  I did hate the ending, though.  I mean, yeah, Season 1 was rather like lightning in a bottle, but the rest was still enjoyable to me, even if it didn't reach the same level.

I realize that this is often a highly unpopular opinion in certain sectors of the Sleepy Hollow fandom.  I'm fine with that.

I'll join you at this table. I'm inclined to agree with this take on the show. 

I totally get why some just up and left, though ,especially after season 3. 

[Zella]

Sherlock is the show I immediately think of when I think of shows that seemed to be more interested in screwing with its fans than actually telling a story. I remember really looking forward to season 3 after that agonizing finale for season 2. My friends and I talked and talked and talked about that show and were so psyched for it finally deliver. And then they basically shit the bed with that opening episode, and I never could finish it. I never could rewatch it. It was just ruined for me. I know people talk about Game of Thrones being ruined for them. Well, I saw through Dany pretty early and kind of enjoyed being right about her more than is probably strictly nice, so though I think the last season experienced a drop in quality, it didn't bother me or retroactively ruin the show for me. But I didn't see through Sherlock until season 3, and it's dead to me. 

I didn't mind Cumberbatch as Sherlock, but I do agree that the depiction doesn't match up with the original books (which were a huge favorite for me as a teen). I'm always a little baffled by shows that take a Sherlockesque figure (House was terrible for this) and their takeaway is that he needs to be a massive dick to people. Sherlock could be eccentric and have his moments, but he wasn't an asshole just to be an asshole. 

I think Martin Freeman should get more kudos for making Sherlock watchable and making Watson more than a longsuffering sidekick, but even then, when I think of him as an actor, I tend to think of his character in Fargo. 

Edited February 27, 2021 by Zella

[JimmyJabloon]

Some dany fans had hypocrisy dialled up to max.

 

Eww Joffrey! Product of incest!
Yay Dany The Targaryen sandwich!

 

Eww Jaime and Cersei do incest!

Yay Jonarys! They’ll have beautiful babies.

 

Eww. Joffrey and Tommen are terrible rulers.

So what if Dany doesn’t know how to rule.

 

Pre S8- We love GOT because it doesn’t give Disney ending.

Post S8- Where my Disney ending?

 

And I don’t get the hate for season 1  Sansa. She’s a teenager being a teenager. If she really was evil or didn’t care about her family, she would have thrown Arya under the bus in the second episode.

 

[kathyk24]

I'm tired of the dead wife and mom trope that seems to be all over tv right now. There are more children living with single moms than single dad in real life but you wouldn't know that from watching tv right now. If an actress wants to leave a show there is nothing wrong with recasting the role. Soap operas have been doing that for decades.

[Haleth]

16 hours ago, JimmyJabloon said:

Never got the hype around their dynasty. Anyone can be a "conqueror" with pet nukes on their side. They had no talent or skill whatsoever. Just their incestuous bloodline. 

Book storyline:  That's why I'm rooting for Fake Aegon.  He was educated to understand what it means to rule.  

Unpopular opinion?  Some of the best storylines and characters from the books never made the show.

[ABay]

Late and echoing a lot of what's been said, but...When Sherlock used texting and or did the quickfire set of would-be clients who were allusions to untold cases Watson mentioned in the canon, I enjoyed it. They completely alienated me with what they did to Irene and the woman with the crush on Sherlock, and completely lost me with the horrible, cringe-inducing, unwatchable Moriarty. As some said upthread, it was embarrassing. His parents calling Mycroft Mike was the only bright after the Irene travesty. I got that secondhand because I'd already stopped watching

[Llywela]

On 2/26/2021 at 6:02 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

Whedon (and the discount available Whedon) somehow managed to pull that shit on Agents of Shield for 7 seasons. The main team was somehow underdogs, even when they basically had a magic jet/space ship, an Avengers level super hero and two scientists who were like the smartest people in the world.

I feel the need to point out here that although they kept Joss's name on AOS for all 7 seasons, he had basically nothing whatsoever to do with the show beyond helping his brother shape the initial concept. He wasn't involved in the writing or production of the show. He had his name in the credits because the name Joss Whedon is a draw, in effect.

Being run by his brother, the show leaned into a lot of standard Joss tropes, but pulled them off much better than Joss ever did, imo.

[SmithW6079]

On 2/27/2021 at 1:36 AM, kathyk24 said:

If an actress wants to leave a show there is nothing wrong with recasting the role. Soap operas have been doing that for decades.

"The role of So-and-so is now being played by New Actor" and the story just continues. 

I miss those days (although even soaps were starting to go to ridiculous lengths when a popular actor wanted to leave but TBTB didn't want the character's arc to end).