S06.E13: The Same Boat

[Unusual Suspect]

... Was that the preview of next week? I missed that bit.

[Eyes High]

... Was that the preview of next week? I missed that bit.

It was when Carol and Maggie were having their little tete-a-tete before their Saviour BBQ. A lot of the dialogue in this episode was hard to hear.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I'm hoping this won't follow the Terminus arc - seven episodes of foreplay building and building, then wad blown in seven minutes flat.

 

Its kind of a turn-on when you talk dirty like that.  :P

 

 

.... and yes, that's^ most likely what he/she said.   *sneaks out side door*

[Ronin Jackson]

So far the body count in this battle between Camp Rick and Camp Negan, it's about 35-0 in favor of Rick's camp (and no, that's not an exact count-- I'm sure someone with more time would be willing to get an exact count) I suppose they are trying to lull the audience into a false sense of security or something but it's also somewhat absurdly one sided given they are establishing a new threat. 

[Happy Harpy]

I found the three Savior women more interesting than 90% of the Alexandrians. I, too, hoped that they could get Michelle on their side (Krista is one of my favorite characters on the Night Shift and after seeing this episode, I think I really like Jeananne Goossen as an actress).

 

Maggie and Carol were both fantastic. They were the mothers of all badass, but still human and not without fear.

 

Maggie has been great and showing imo all her potential for two episodes in a row. She had gotten so far, she wanted to finish the job so that the moral cost wouldn't be wasted and that's what, for me, made her so ruthless. I cheered when she went after Rat Bastard.

 

Like some other posters, I didn't know when Carol was faking it at times, and I think that at times, it was a mix of both. Her turmoil was real, but she used it to her advantage, too. And she still got the job done. The only moment when I yelled "No, you didn't!" at my TV was when she told the Saviors that Maggie was pregnant. It could have made her a designated victim for maximum effect on CDB, or gotten her killed on the spot for the evulz.

I find it only normal that Carol is reaching her breaking point, and questions herself and what she does/had to do. I agree, it's like this since Lizzie (and since Lizzie's presence endangered my lovely Judith, you bet that Carol was 100% justified in my eyes). Again, she's only human even though she was terrific, and she wouldn't be interesting in my eyes if she wasn't.

I do believe that Morgan has something to do with her attitude, but he didn't instigate it. He just represents an option and imo, Carol thought that she might feel more at peace with herself if she tried to be less ruthless. It was, I think, appealing to her because she doubts, and Morgan doesn't.

For me, she needs care for her PTSD (hello, Denise!) rather than to reconsider her principles for survival, but maybe after this episode, she realized it.

The rosary surprised me, maybe because I didn't watch the first seasons but I never noticed that Carol was religious.

 

It was nice to see a moment of closeness between Carol and Daryl. I don't ship them, but I like their friendship a lot and I'm glad it isn't MIA anymore.

 

Also, I appreciated that an almost all-female episode didn't shy away from violence, and didn't portray women as meeker or more prone to dialogue or more eager to find a peaceful solution than men. They were women, the writing didn't ignore it, but they were survivors/adversaries/people first and foremost. The pregnancy wasn't made into mere "girl talk", even when Maggie mentioned dying in childbirth it was linked to general survival, too. Imo, every female character on screen had a personality, and was a badass for better or for worse.

 

And Badass Rick in the end was a nice cap to the general badassery.

 

I must say that I'm impressed so far with this half-season.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Happy Harpy

[looksee]

I kept yelling "bitch, you don't know who you're messing with!" Every time Negan's women threatened Carol.

Carol did not disappoint.

*smokes cigarette*

*coughs like a maniac cuz I don't smoke*

[Nashville]

Fucking, Morgan, you better not have broke Carol.

Best line of the night.

 

I thought she was faking it, but nope. She was really having a moment of weakness. There are people that deserve mercy; those people were not the ones.

 

It was a mix.  On the front end it was pure Scarol:

• Hooking the rosary and crucifix off the walker corpse.
• Playing "poor widdle shivery me" Carol to defuse perception of herself as a threat.
• Inventing a religious pretext so as not to be deprived of the closest thing she'd managed to acquire in the way of an escape tool.

 

I don't think Carol's moral confusion really started kicking in until Paula started talking, and Carol realized how much her and Paula's lives paralleled.

In Paula I saw a mirror of Carol as she was around the time of the Wolf attack - defending her own fearlessly and without conscience.  I think Carol saw her reflection in that same mirror, which is when her moral confusion began to set in. 

It also accounts for Carol's reluctance to shoot Paula (a reluctance notably absent in dealing with Molls or 'Chelle, BTW); shooting Paula was, in essence, shooting herself.

 

 

2. She took away Paula's walkie talkie and did a credible imitation of Paula to lure the other Saviours, all over Paula's screams of agony.

 

To be fair, Carol waited until after Paula's screams had subsided before responding to the radio call....

[Caelicola]

I feel like this episode was pretty emblematic of Gimple's whole tenure as showrunner; writing that swings wildly between clumsy and heavyhanded and gorgeous and flowy, major pacing issues (talk talk talk talk taaaaaaaaalk STAB STABBITY STAB!!) but women get to -mostly- rock. Darabont is a much better storyteller, but he didn't really give a shit about women (the only truly independent and meaningful chioice a woman got to make in the first season was Jacqui choosing to die on her own terms...), and Mazzara had a slightly better understanding of what pacing is but he outright did dirty to most women (he completely demolished Andrea, Michonne was just a mute Magical Negro, Maggie's only storyline was about her attempted rape). So, all things considered, as a woman I enjoy Gimple's stewardship for the same reason I enjoyed this episode: women get to DO STUFF and grow as characters because of it.

I hope they show us how Negan inspires such a cultish devotion in his followers...we are all Spartac-sorry, Negan.

I know he won't appear until the season finale, I just hope all the hyping up and painting him as a sort of mythical figure doesn't end up annoying me more than amping up the tension and anticipation.

I overall love what they're doing with Carol, though, and I don't really think it's motivated by Morgan. She hasn't really been ok since Lizzie, maybe even since Karvid, maybe even since Sophia. I found her going from "you ok?" "Gotta be" to "no" one of those flowy, meaningful and graceful moments of writing. She needed this, as a person and as a character, because ruthlessly willing to do what's necessary but being destroyed emotionally by it makes for a much deeper character than emotionless killing machine, and it's so freaking rare on tv to have that storyline given to a woman.

[Anela]

The guys showing up at the end, were like the sirens of police cars and ambulances, in any other show. 

 

I liked the episode. I don't mind Alicia Witt, either, and she looked so happy that she got to be a part of it for one episode, on Talking Dead, that I'm glad she got to do it. 

 

I liked seeing them pull it together, and get out of there. I could have done without the last, "I am Negan. We are all Negan" guy - I hoped he was just going to say something about the man, rather than leaving them in the dark. 

[DEL901]

I went back and forth all episode on whether or not Carol's distress was real.. I think it was fake at first, but the more Paula talked, the more she saw herself and what she could become (and add in all the work Morgan's been doing on her) and she started freaking out.  Cold, calculating Carol wouldn't have told the Saviors that Maggie was pregnant.  I was expecting one of them to kick Maggie in the stomach just for fun.

 

I think that thus endeth her fling with Tobin and her attempts at normalcy.  It almost got Maggie killed.  She's not going to be weak like that again.  And it's going to keep eating her up inside

 

Only 3 episodes left in the season... 

[Bad Example]

This Negan build up is very lackluster at best. You would think as much as his crew talks him up Negan would have better trained or prepared his crew to be badasses and stop wasting so much time talking. That's all they do is talk.

 

It would be interesting to discover that Negan is a talker and they're emulating their Beloved Leader. 

 

Like some other posters, I didn't know when Carol was faking it at times, and I think that at times, it was a mix of both. Her turmoil was real, but she used it to her advantage, too. And she still got the job done. The only moment when I yelled "No, you didn't!" at my TV was when she told the Saviors that Maggie was pregnant. It could have made her a designated victim for maximum effect on CDB, or gotten her killed on the spot for the evulz.

 

The rosary surprised me, maybe because I didn't watch the first seasons but I never noticed that Carol was religious.

 

It was nice to see a moment of closeness between Carol and Daryl. I don't ship them, but I like their friendship a lot and I'm glad it isn't MIA anymore.

 

And Badass Rick in the end was a nice cap to the general badassery.

 

I must say that I'm impressed so far with this half-season.

 

1-  I had a moment of panic when Carol mentioned Maggie's pregnancy, too, for those same reasons.  But I think what I forgot is that no one can read a room like an abuse victim.  

 

2- The rosary came off the Walker that was dragged out.  Carol picked up some convenient Catholicism.  

 

3- Carol and Daryl: I loved seeing that, too.  The characters are just so good for each other and it was nice to pick up on their bond again.  

 

4- I'm conflicted on Rick shooting Primo.  It seemed premature.  I wonder if he did it because he tagged "I'm Negan" as a lie and knew he wasn't going to get anything truthful out of the guy?  

[ACW]

Rather than wetting her hair to downplay the actress' looks, maybe fuck up her face a little with makeup or prosthetics and give her a scar or two?

They made up for it later. ;)

[Bec]

I was expecting (dreading) someone important would die, so I’m seriously relieved that didn’t happen. Killing important characters off is so routine by now, not doing it is actually better and more surprising. I don’t care how “unrealistic” it is. I don’t watch this show for the realism.

 

I’m still expecting a big death before the end of this season, so I hope the show surprises me and don’t do what I’m expecting.

 

They're all alive to deal with consequences, which is more entertaining at this point, imho.

Amen to that. *high-five you with a bloody rosary in my hand*

 

I thought it was interesting that the Negan people were humanized a bit. They were competent and apparently not totally evil, yes, it was like a mirror image of CDB, a bizarro CDB if you will. And then CDB still killed them. I’m interested in how this affects CDB afterwards.

 

Interesting that Carol was having problems killing to protect herself, but immediately put down the woman who cut Maggie.

Seems to me this has been the way Carol rolls since the prison. She doesn’t hesitate to kill for her people’s survival. For all the people she’s killed, some under questionable circumstances as they may be, she hasn’t been doing it for her own benefit.

 

My only curiosity about Negan is why he/they didn't just wipe out Hilltop, or conquer it and rule from there. Beyond that, eh.

Somebody has to do the farming, and it ain’t going to be Negan. I think keeping people alive to do scut work shows Negan is not just a maniac. Does it make him (or her?) a good guy? Nah. But I always find it more interesting when the enemies CDB encounter aren’t simply out-and-out crazy-ass villains.

[ACW]

My only curiosity about Negan is why he/they didn't just wipe out Hilltop, or conquer it and rule from there.

Why would he want to? Getting 50% from multiple places is better than getting most of one place.

I'm getting the feeling that Negan is actually a multi-level marketing scheme. AKA feudalism, and it's good to be the king. But you have to deal harshly with lese majeste'.

[Timetoread]

Basically this was a well done episode. I liked Carol's waffling, it is about time she examined herself.  I have been the lone voice who had no time for "badass" Carol.  Carol has never been badass.  She has always been a desperate, panicked, slightly pathetic character who went from one extreme of total victim to the Terminator.  Never a whole person.  This was a step forward in my book.  Willingness to kill to save loved ones is not the same as a desire to kill. 

 

Loved Maggie in this one (I've never not liked Maggie or L.Cohan's acting).  Although I am becoming more and more incensed at this new (clearly patronizing) line that this was all brought to you by some magical force known as MOTHERHOOD.  Carol can only fight - because she's a mother.  Maggie can only fight - because she's a mother.  Michonne is a warrior...wait for it...because she's a mother.  Can we please stop with the women are useless unless they are fighting for their cubs drivel.  Last I checked, Sasha and Rosita can hold their own and they don't have kids.  I didn't see a "new" Maggie because she is pregnant.  I saw the same Maggie, who is battle tested and war weary and yes, her pregnancy gives her a new motivation but her ABILITY was always there.  I saw Hershel's Daughter in this episode moreso that Glenn's BabyMama.  Even Hershel used to say that Maggie was the tough one.  I think that this episode clearly showed that CDB has spawned warriors individually - it is why they have survived.  Each one of them very strong in body and mind and that they have lost all naivete.  But I also liked that it showed the distinction between Carol and Maggie and Rick.  It bears repeating that Rick was a cop.  Some of it is training and some of it is archetype that a cop views people in terms of who is a threat and who is not.  Threats need to be neutralized.  Cops don't give a benefit of the doubt about how low a threat can go, the fact that their arrow points down is evidence enough.  Rick is not an indiscriminate killer but he is able to sleep with his decision making.  It is why, even if ill thought out, I do agree with his plan to try to neutralize the Negan threat.   

[CletusMusashi]

Hey, where was Carol's trench knife this week? I mean, these were some very talky villains. I think if they' found a knife that looked like that on somebody who looked and acted like Carol, there is no way they wouldn't be playing with it and commenting. But if they didn't search her, which seems even more unlikely, she should have been using it. So did she just randomly decide to go into combat, surrounded by zombies, without her favorite weapon? I'm not buying that. Even with her current morgangst going on, there are still zombies out there to worry about.

[Haleth]

I kept thinking Carol must be faking it.  She's fierce, she will jump Paula any minute and stab her in the eye.  That's the Carol we know.  But, nope.  She's done a 180 from killing Karen and David, now she's begging her adversaries to run so she doesn't have to kill them.  I'll miss the bad ass warrior woman (if she is indeed gone) but New Carol has more depth.  This character continues to evolve and Melissa is knocking it out of the park.

 

I thought Alicia Witt did a good job as Paula.  She was charming on Talking Dead.

 

I hope CDB realizes that they didn't wipe out all the Saviors.  If Paula was talking to some guys who weren't killed in the last episode there are likely others around.  Don't feel safe yet!

[ghoulina]

I don't think Caryl is or will be romantic, but the bit at the end with Carol and Daryl reminded me of an early X-Files episode (second season). Scully had narrowly escaped a maniac who had held her captive, Mulder lifted her chin, she broke down, and they hugged.

 

I LOVE the relationship between them, and I don't think it has to be romantic either. I just think Daryl is the one person who Carol can most be herself with. And I love seeing a male and a female being such close friends, without it having to go "there". 

 

So has anyone else been psyching themselves up for a big death the last couple of episodes, and then when it doesn't happen you're left not knowing how to feel?

 

 

YUP. It's not that I WANT anyone to die, but I keep feeling like it's supposed to happen, and it hasn't, and I'm all confuzzled. 

 

-  You don't give Carol any kind of fashionable weapon or prison-escape object, or let her keep one if she has it.  Wait, yes you do.  Thanks dumbies.  She played your asses, when it mattered.  Newbs.

 

I couldn't believe they let her keep that rosary. My first thought was that she was going to garrote someone with it. 

[Bad Example]

Although I am becoming more and more incensed at this new (clearly patronizing) line that this was all brought to you by some magical force known as MOTHERHOOD.  Carol can only fight - because she's a mother.  Maggie can only fight - because she's a mother.  Michonne is a warrior...wait for it...because she's a mother.  Can we please stop with the women are useless unless they are fighting for their cubs drivel.  Last I checked, Sasha and Rosita can hold their own and they don't have kids.  

 

I do not get that at all.  Motherhood informs their actions, and it absolutely should, just as every experience informs them.  With Maggie pregnant, it's something that looms especially large right now.  I find nothing patronizing about that.  But I see no evidence that it is the ONLY reason either of them (or Michonne) can fight, or the only reason that they do so.  

Yes, for both Carol and Michonne, losing children acted as a catalyst for who they have become.  By the same token, it was the threat against Carl that made Rick his most ferally violent, so it's not just a motherhood thing.

And I don't see any evidence that there has ever been anything "less than" about the women who don't have kids.  They have different layers.  Not better, not worse, just different.  Sasha's crisis wasn't less significant because she's not a mother.  Rosita... well, Rosita's mostly gotten short shrift, but her procreation status doesn't have anything to do with that.  

Motherhood certainly never gave Lori any superpowers, that's for damn sure.  

[peach]

It's funny that for all of Carol's shaking and hesitation towards the end of the episode, she did some truly cold shit:

 

1. She didn't bother to put Paula out of her misery when she was being eaten alive about a foot away from her.

2. She took away Paula's walkie talkie and did a credible imitation of Paula to lure the other Saviours, all over Paula's screams of agony.

3. She confided in Maggie about her guilt over creating this situation by not killing Donnie...right before burning five people alive. (I'm also pretty confident that the plan to burn them alive was Carol's.)

 

I mean, it was clearly causing her a great deal of pain to do those things, but...

 

I think that's part of Carol's struggle.  She's not just willing to kill, she's smart and can think of excellent and clever ways to do it.  Who knows what ruthless thoughts cross her mind that she has to dismiss.  If she decided to turn evil, she would be devastating.

 

 

With all that said, as Carol realized, this whole situation was created by her decision to shoot Donnie in the arm instead of the head. Poor Carol. She hung back with Maggie to avoid killing. She shot Donnie in the arm to avoid killing. As a result of those two decisions, nine people are dead.

 

Well, that was inevitable.  That group was all right there in the woods.  If she'd killed Donnie with the first shot, the rest would have been on top of them anyway, and there would have been a firefight.  The mission was kill'em all and let God sort'em out.

[ghoulina]

1-  I had a moment of panic when Carol mentioned Maggie's pregnancy, too, for those same reasons.  But I think what I forgot is that no one can read a room like an abuse victim.

 

Carol is just so SO gifted at being able to read people and situations and figuring out which persona is going to work in that moment. She immediately became a clueless suburban housewife in ASZ. When the Wolves arrived, she quickly deduced that she needed to go undercover to take them out. And with these women, she didn't act the way she did because she thought they would feel sorry for her, it was because she thought they wouldn't take her seriously. 

 

2- The rosary came off the Walker that was dragged out.  Carol picked up some convenient Catholicism.

 

But is it possible that Carol was quite religious pre-ZA? I remember her praying fervently in that church when Sophia was missing. When she told Paula that her faith got her through the loss of her daughter, I thought it was actually the opposite - that that's when she lost it. But I kind of got the impression that there was a religious background for Carol. 

[nachomama]

It was a mix.  On the front end it was pure Scarol:

• Hooking the rosary and crucifix off the walker corpse.
• Playing "poor widdle shivery me" Carol to defuse perception of herself as a threat.
• Inventing a religious pretext so as not to be deprived of the closest thing she'd managed to acquire in the way of an escape tool.

 

I don't think Carol's moral confusion really started kicking in until Paula started talking, and Carol realized how much her and Paula's lives paralleled.

In Paula I saw a mirror of Carol as she was around the time of the Wolf attack - defending her own fearlessly and without conscience.  I think Carol saw her reflection in that same mirror, which is when her moral confusion began to set in. 

It also accounts for Carol's reluctance to shoot Paula (a reluctance notably absent in dealing with Molls or 'Chelle, BTW); shooting Paula was, in essence, shooting herself.

 

I agree, I don't think Carol questioned anything she did up until Paula would't run, Paula said "double digits" which Carol is already well into. And Carol doesn't necessarily do a lot of "pre meditated" murder, mostly she reacts, but she has had to make terrible choices and when she told Paula to run, she meant it, she doesn't like to have to, which is the difference. She hated killing Lizzie but LIzzie was a threat. She hated having to mercy kill the poor smoking neighbor and I kinda laughed how much they've been putting smoking into the story these days. 

[peach]

But is it possible that Carol was quite religious pre-ZA? I remember her praying fervently in that church when Sophia was missing. When she told Paula that her faith got her through the loss of her daughter, I thought it was actually the opposite - that that's when she lost it. But I kind of got the impression that there was a religious background for Carol. 

 

Yes, and in one of Carl's worst moments, they argued about Sophia going to heaven.  But Sophia's death did crash her faith.

I felt like the rosary itself was chosen for this episode because it also ties into the motherhood theme of the last couple episodes.

[nodorothyparker]

There was a lot of good here that I mostly liked but it did really begin to drag in the middle.  Some of the ideas they were attempting to explore here were good ones, about whether our people can really even consider themselves good guys anymore after last week's premeditated bloodbath, that while we may all have cheered when Daryl used Chekov's RPG there were people on the other side of that who lost something beyond the assholes in the road, that it's very easy to become a warped funhouse version of yourself when you stop counting the cost.  Still, there was a point in all the talking where you knew there was no way everyone was going to walk away from this and you just wanted them to get on with it.

 

Both Melissa McBride and Lauren Cohen did really lovely work here.  We've seen Carol fake it enough now that I know I assumed that's where she was setting up shop only to slowly realize I really wasn't sure and Maggie wasn't either.   Maggie sometimes bores me when she nearly buckles under the weight of being Herschel's Daughter and Good Guy Glenn's Wife with every measured noble thing those things imply, but she's also got some real violence and hardness in her that I don't think we've truly seen since season 3 and it nearly broke her here as well.

 

It's pretty telling that both women ultimately did the hard things to get to a place where they could both acknowledge not being okay to only then have Rick put a bullet in someone's head two feet from them seemingly without any feeling about it at all.  They can both say they don't want to do this anymore but it's not over.

Edited March 14, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[ghoulina]

Loved Maggie in this one (I've never not liked Maggie or L.Cohan's acting).  Although I am becoming more and more incensed at this new (clearly patronizing) line that this was all brought to you by some magical force known as MOTHERHOOD.  Carol can only fight - because she's a mother.  Maggie can only fight - because she's a mother.  Michonne is a warrior...wait for it...because she's a mother.  Can we please stop with the women are useless unless they are fighting for their cubs drivel.

 

I'm really not seeing that at all. Andrea was the most competent woman early in the series and she didn't have kids. On the other hand, the two mothers (Carol and Lori) were fairly useless for the first two seasons. Carol was certainly not all "fierce mother" when a walker went after Sophia. No, she had to get there after many months and many losses. That was her personal journey, and yes, motherhood is tied up in that. But that's because that's who she is. 

 

I don't see it as any different than Rick fighting as hard as HE does, because of HIS two children. If Rick didn't have Carl, and now Judith, to protect, he might have had a very different path in the ZA. Hershel did everything he could to protect his daughters. The Governor's entire journey in the ZA was because of the madness that came over him when he lost his daughter. 

 

Also, I think they have shown Rosita and Sasha as two of the most capable women on the show currently, and they're not mothers. 

 

Personally, I think having a loved one period, whether it's a child or a spouse or a sibling, gives you something to fight for. And I think a lot of our characters have gone through things because of other people. 

[nodorothyparker]

I've always thought had Carl and Judith died when Lori did or anytime around the whole prison arc that Rick probably would have become the Governor.  It's been shown over and over that his kids have at times been his only tenuous tether to reality.

[bentley]

I thought Carol violated rule number one of being a hostage: do not volunteer information. Why would she tell tNegan's group that her people are the ones who took out the motorcycle gang on the road. Why let them know exactly how dangerous your group is? Why potentially incite additional anger? Some men in that group could have been husbands, lovers or just good buddies of the women. In fact, one of them was, although it turned out Chelle didn't seem to care all that much. Even her sharing about Maggie's pregnancy backfired. Chelle knew exactly where to aim when they were fighting.

[peach]

I do not get that at all.  Motherhood informs their actions, and it absolutely should, just as every experience informs them.  With Maggie pregnant, it's something that looms especially large right now.  I find nothing patronizing about that.  But I see no evidence that it is the ONLY reason either of them (or Michonne) can fight, or the only reason that they do so. 

 

Agree.  Motherhood has been A theme the last couple episodes, but it doesn't negate the other themes, other characters, or the last 5 1/2 seasons.  It's just an element.

[TattleTeeny]

All I hav eto say is thank goodness Paula is gone--what an annoying character she was! Ugh, she was like an obnoxious internet commenter who can't come up with anything but, "Oh yeah? You're stupid." Good riddance!

[Primetimer]

For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.

Read the story

[SimoneS]

I've always thought had Carl and Judith died when Lori did or anytime around the whole prison arc that Rick probably would have become the Governor.  It's been shown over and over that his kids have at times been his only tenuous tether to reality.

 

I think that if Carl and Judith died and there was no one to hold onto him, Rick would have had a complete mental break like Michonne and Morgan did when they lost their children. They are fundamentally good people who became lost in themselves out of grief, guilt, and despair. This was theme of the episode, "Clear" where Morgan was Rick's mirror, not Phillip, the psychopath.

[Bad Example]

 

But is it possible that Carol was quite religious pre-ZA? I remember her praying fervently in that church when Sophia was missing. When she told Paula that her faith got her through the loss of her daughter, I thought it was actually the opposite - that that's when she lost it. But I kind of got the impression that there was a religious background for Carol. 

 

I agree about all of that... I'm just not so sure that a rosary was part of her particular brand.  <g>  Came in handy, though!  

[CrashTextDummie]

This episode was a good showcase  for Carol and MMB, but more importantly it was a long overdue and desperately needed showcase for Maggie and LC. Maggie has for a long while now ostensibly been one of the main inner circle characters, by virtue of carrying the entire legacy of season 2 of the show and having the only meaningful and well developed romantic relationship, but the writers seem to really struggle to give her material that goes beyond worrying about her hubby. There was a half-assed storyline of her working with Deanna, but really she has never been given center stage the way Daryl, Carol, Glenn, Michonne or even Abraham have. Even during the Beth fiasco, the show was more about Daryl's angst than about Maggie's, her only living relative. So even though this episode may have had unfortunately unsubtle "fierce mamma bear" undertones, I'm just glad she got to carry one and carried it well.

 

Other than that, the episode was very much "get to know thy enemies". I thought these saviors were a sufficiently interesting bunch and I continue being impressed by how the writers are slowly building up the conflict between Team Negan and Team Rick without tipping their hand early with the introduction of maniacal supervillain #7. This may still devolve into a been-there-done-that situation, but for now things are still feeling fresh. This is shaping up to be perhaps the shows strongest half-season.

Edited March 14, 2016 by CrashTextDummie

[AngelaHunter]

Yes, for both Carol and Michonne, losing children acted as a catalyst for who they have become.  By the same token, it was the threat against Carl that made Rick his most ferally violent, so it's not just a motherhood thing.

 

I agree with this. I think the protection of their young  is the strongest instinct in every species, after self-preservation. Even a bunny rabbit will attack to protect its babies. As Rick said, "I would have done anythang (to protect Carl)." I think there's little a normal parent wouldn't do in defense of her/his child, and that probably includes the unborn.

[ghoulina]

I thought Carol violated rule number one of being a hostage: do not volunteer information. Why would she tell tNegan's group that her people are the ones who took out the motorcycle gang on the road. Why let them know exactly how dangerous your group is? Why potentially incite additional anger?

 

Well, the ladies wanted to know why they had come to take out Negan's group. I guess Carol thought making it seem like it was out of retribution/fear of that random incident on the road was better than letting them know they were working with Hilltop and had a much bigger plan in mind. 

[VLove]

 

Also does anyone else think the Fear the Walking Dead plane episodes are more interesting than the actual Fear the Walking Dead?

 

without question.

[nachomama]

I thought Carol violated rule number one of being a hostage: do not volunteer information. Why would she tell tNegan's group that her people are the ones who took out the motorcycle gang on the road. Why let them know exactly how dangerous your group is? Why potentially incite additional anger? Some men in that group could have been husbands, lovers or just good buddies of the women. In fact, one of them was, although it turned out Chelle didn't seem to care all that much. Even her sharing about Maggie's pregnancy backfired. Chelle knew exactly where to aim when they were fighting.

I thought that more about Maggie's baby. I know throwing out information about Rick was to stall her, or make her question whether they should try and take them out themselves. The only thing we learned from it is that they weren't completely sure who or what happened to that group, and yes, she just let them in on it. (In theory killing all the people who heard that would keep Negan in the dark but there will be a convenient way that Negan gets the info) But the instant she let them know Maggie was pregnant was going to make Maggie the more valuable asset, hurting Maggie was a catalyst. 

[RustbeltWriter]

I'm already over the cult of Negan or whatever the showrunners are setting up. I understand there will be bad people in the apocalypse but our group seems to attract them like flies.

 

The only thing I really like about this whole Negan set up so far is that the Saviors die quickly with their smug grins firmly plastered on their faces until the last moment.

[uoflfan]

Mole chick has to be the worst interrogator ever. Was she trying to talk Maggie to death? She could have used some torture lessons from Shane, Merle, the Governor or Rick. Negan's crew are dumber than rocks.

[oakville]

Wasn't she responding to Red's "all hands on deck" order to go find Rick and Co. when she realized how close they really were? I got the feeling they got together to make a plan to fight, believing that the bound hostages were not a concern.

 

OK Thanks!. That makes sense.

[Boofish]

I thought Carol violated rule number one of being a hostage: do not volunteer information. Why would she tell tNegan's group that her people are the ones who took out the motorcycle gang on the road. Why let them know exactly how dangerous your group is? Why potentially incite additional anger? Some men in that group could have been husbands, lovers or just good buddies of the women. In fact, one of them was, although it turned out Chelle didn't seem to care all that much. Even her sharing about Maggie's pregnancy backfired. Chelle knew exactly where to aim when they were fighting.

Hostage rule #1 - try not to let your capture move you to a secure location. If that is not possible

Hostage rule #2 - introduce yourself; tell life stories. You need to come off as human to them and try and penetrate what if any humanity they have left. Your first order of business should be giving yourself a name and a reason to be sparred (i.e. Maggie is pregnant. And it worked!). Lots of people resort to begging but this rarely works; it just gives them more power. 

 

As far as the other information it could have been two-fold. We are dangerous but honor our word; make the deal and everybody goes home safe. I think it was good to let them know that their group weren't the Hilltop and don't just give away all they have worked for without a fight. Carol had already convinced them they had taken the two weakest members of the group - a scared old lady and a pregnant chick so their chances of survival with them was probably looking 98-2.

 

Chelle was "fighting back" Fighting dirty but fighting back. Don't think that slash would have happened had the fight not started. She had Maggie in a room bound and alone. If she wanted to hurt her she had plenty of chances.

[Tony]

I actually am a little sick of the non-stop violence. What kind of world can they rebuild if everyone becomes a savage killer? 

 

With what these people have all gone through, I don't think rebuilding civilization is in their minds at this stage.

[Ottis]

TWD has become far too caught up in the minutia of "characterization" and is now virtually bankrupt when it comes to anything meaningful happening.

 

How many times do we need to see Rick and company encounter a new group, the new group is bad in some way (sometimes obviously, sometimes more subtly), conflict ensues, Rick and group learn a lesson (and if they don't learn it, the lesson come back with worse consequences). Yes, these encounters keep changing our main characters. Carol is a conflicted bad ass, Rick is a broken leader, etc. So ... yay?

 

It's reached the point that I miss Eugene pretending that he knows of a cure. At least that provided a direction.

 

At this stage I now just read the previously.tv TWD summaries and some of the comments, and if anything of actual interest happens, I go back and skim the DVR'd episode.

 

I actually am a little sick of the non-stop violence. What kind of world can they rebuild if everyone becomes a savage killer? I was happy to see Carol act a bit more human-I don't want any of the characters to lose their humanity; then they just become avatars on a video game.

 

 

Agree, tho it isn't just the violence. It's the repetitive nature of the show. 

Edited March 14, 2016 by Ottis

[AndySmith]

"You're not the good guys. You should know that."

- 'Chelle to Maggie -

 

So are the Saviors like, the Others or something?

[piequinn35]

That's why they are in the same boat, all of them are not the good guys :> :> well no more "good guys" in ZA just badasses :))

 

This episode should be titled "Girl Power"

 

Ha! Alicia Witt had only one episode.

[Eyes High]

Chelle was "fighting back" Fighting dirty but fighting back. Don't think that slash would have happened had the fight not started. She had Maggie in a room bound and alone. If she wanted to hurt her she had plenty of chances.

Maggie played Chelle pretty well; Carol would be proud. Chelle's "LYING BITCH!" when attacking Maggie seemed genuinely outraged and betrayed.

 

Ha! Alicia Witt had only one episode.

If I were an actor, and had the opportunity for a one-off episode on The Walking Dead, Paula would be exactly the kind of role I would want: get some good villain speeches and get a gloriously gory demise.

 

So are the Saviors like, the Others or something?

Ugh, let's hope not.

 

She could have used some torture lessons from Shane, Merle, the Governor or Rick. Negan's crew are dumber than rocks.

Didn't Daryl torture that rapist for information several seasons ago?

 

...You know, thinking about this whole Saviours business, we've been given enough hints that they're truly awful people to put the lie to any suggestion that Rick and co. are being confronted with people Just Like Them, and, similarly, that Hilltop seems to be made up of people who are flawed but not as terrible, who are as weak as they appear and genuinely in need of assistance. Yawnsville.

 

What would have been way more interesting to me is Jesus being some sort of mastermind concocting a story about the Saviours being bad people to fool Rick into taking them out and grabbing their food and supplies, and Rick realizing only when it was too late that he'd massacred a bunch of people for nothing. Now, granted, the reason Rick was trigger-happy with the Saviours had a lot to do with Daryl, Abe and Sasha's experience, but it would have been a way more interesting story than "Ambiguously good dude is good after all, bad dudes are bad after all."

Edited March 14, 2016 by Eyes High

[poppy-]

Mole chick has to be the worst interrogator ever. Was she trying to talk Maggie to death? She could have used some torture lessons from Shane, Merle, the Governor or Rick. Negan's crew are dumber than rocks.

She wasn't interrogating Maggie as she was ordered to. Mole was defying those orders and was trying to get info so she could learn where Maggie came from and escape to there herself.

[lulee]

That's why they are in the same boat, all of them are not the good guys :> :> well no more "good guys" in ZA just badasses :))

This episode should be titled "Girl Power"

Ha! Alicia Witt had only one episode.

She and Ethan Embry can get Tshirts that say, "I'm an actor who's a big fan of The Walking Dead, and all I got was one Season Six episode and this lousy t-shirt."

[Diane M]

When I first saw the smoker gal, I thought Roseanne Barr was making a guest appearance.

[LeeMoon]

She wasn't interrogating Maggie as she was ordered to. Mole was defying those orders and was trying to get info so she could learn where Maggie came from and escape to there herself.

 

I had the same feeling. Mole was the less lucky version of Maggie and I have the feeling she wasn't happy where she was.

 

I'm conflicted about this episode. The violence is getting harder for me to watch. Burning a group of people alive, letting a person get eaten and do nothing to end her misery.  How many of those people were evil and how many were like Mole? Was the guy Rick captured a doctor? why kill him in cold blood instead of talking to him to try and find out where he came from and how many people they have?

 

The group is emotionless about killing. At least Carol had a moral crisis, Rick had no reaction to shooting a man in the head.

Edited March 14, 2016 by LeeMoon