S06.E08: Season 6, Episode 8

[SusanSunflower]

 

All that makes it impossible that Mary's motivation was nothing else than malice and a will to destroy Edith's chances for happiness and, even more, have a position above her own. She probably didn't actually plan it, but when the chance became, she took it.

This callousness was an aspect of Mary's personality I had never seen before ... she didn't just want to  "get a dig in" at Edith, she was trying to ruin Edith. Since Bertie did.not.know and had been "betrayed" by Edith's secret, Mary was opening to door to Edith's eventual ruination -- which, considering that Mary did not -- in fact -- know the truth or the whole story about Marigold (even if she assumed she did) her actions were incredibly reckless and hateful, not just spiteful (you're happy, I'm not -- I'll make you cry). 

Edith has now told Bertie "everything" ... but I'm not certain Mary has been privileged with knowledge (beyond her assumptions) wrt the "whole story" about Edith and Gregson and Switzerland, etc.  

Edith might have thrown herself from the roof or in front of a train or run away to London to turn on the gas -- leaving Marigold safe to be raised by Cora. 

Carson and Robert were rebuked for playing "fast and loose" with Thomas' life and wellbeing. Mary got called a bitch, but she was not called out wrt her reckless disregard for Edith's and Marigold's (and the family name etc). Spitefulness is usually shallow and mean-spirited.  Mary was playing with fire wrt Edith.  eta: And Mary got off easy wrt Edith's returning to be sisterly in attending the wedding and wishing her a happy future. (only on TV) 

Edited February 22, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Roseanna]

Fellowes did an amazing job on this episode, I think one of the best since Season 1. I loved:

 

-the poignant speech of Edith about sisters

 

 

I am just of the opposite opinion. To me it was complete rubbish and, before all, illogical.

 

Mary had just showed herself to be a person who in the midle of her thirties is still the same as she and Edith were in their early twenties when they stabbed one another's back. Then they at least had a reason (to revenge what the other had done) but now Mary acted for no other reason than to prevent her sister to be happy and outrank her, even if it was entirely in her power to call Henry back and she has in Downton more actual power, having the position that is usually that of the man, than Edith would have as a wife of a Marques.

 

​So why on earth would Edith want to remember the past with her sister, or even ever meet her when she has shown that she can't be trusted at all and has just done all she could to cause her misfortune (although Edith with Bertie quite rightly took the responsibility only to herself)?

 

Instead, to me family means to sticking together when you need compassion and help most. You may not like your sibling, but if she lose her job or especially someone she loves, or her child has problems or becomes sick, you try to show compassion and help her. Or at least, if you can't do that, you are at least silent and don't behave like Mary did after Gregson's death.

 

Also as a drama, it wasn't simply right that it was Edith who would come to do amends for it would rob Mary a chance to redeem herself. After all, Violet's advice to make a peace with herself and her sister. But what Mary did was call Henry back and he did. She should have first to make a contact with Edith and try to get Bertie to come to his senses (although I don't like the idea, I think he should do it on his own) and only after that go to Henry in London, unknowing if he is willing to take her any more.   

[Andorra]

This callousness was an aspect of Mary's personality I had never seen before ... she didn't just want to  "get a dig in" at Edith, she was trying to ruin Edith. Since Bertie did.not.know and had been "betrayed" by Edith's secret, Mary was opening to door to Edith's eventual ruination -- which, considering that Mary did not -- in fact -- know the truth or the whole story about Marigold (even if she assumed she did) her actions were incredibly reckless and hateful, not just spiteful (you're happy, I'm not -- I'll make you cry). 

 

I think it was out of character. As you wrote: Mary has never been so downright mean and out to destroy Edith. She has been nasty to her and bitchy, but to ruin her life? That was out of character for me. Especially since Mary is in her 30s now. Where does this absolute hate come from all the sudden? In series 1 we saw them both bitching and nasty, then in season 2, they actually got along quite well, in season 3 as well and then all the sudden in season 5 and 6 Mary becomes a total monster towards Edith. 

[madfortv]

For the seasons I watched (first season and recent seasons), Mrs Hughes seemed like a strong character, but something was lost after she became engaged to Carson. It was great to see her back in form this episode. She was more in charge and I liked that.

 

Sometimes I wish there would have been a flash back to show the root cause of the problems between Mary and Edith. Was there one incident?  Did Mary resent having a little sister?  Was Mary always favored causing her to set up in her own esteem. I've seen an example of that in real life where the older favored child ended up acting very much like Mary.

 

 

[Roseanna]

This callousness was an aspect of Mary's personality I had never seen before ... she didn't just want to  "get a dig in" at Edith, she was trying to ruin Edith. Since Bertie did.not.know and had been "betrayed" by Edith's secret, Mary was opening to door to Edith's eventual ruination -- which, considering that Mary did not -- in fact -- know the truth or the whole story about Marigold (even if she assumed she did) her actions were incredibly reckless and hateful, not just spiteful (you're happy, I'm not -- I'll make you cry). 

Edith has now told Bertie "everything" ... but I'm not certain Mary has been privileged with knowledge (beyond her assumptions) wrt the "whole story" about Edith and Gregson and Switzerland, etc.  

Edith might have thrown herself from the roof or in front of a train or run away to London to turn on the gas -- leaving Marigold safe to be raised by Cora. 

Carson and Robert were rebuked for playing "fast and loose" with Thomas' life and wellbeing. Mary got called a bitch, but she was not called out wrt her reckless disregard for Edith's and Marigold's (and the family name etc). Spitefulness is usually shallow and mean-spirited.  Mary was playing with fire wrt Edith.  eta: And Mary got off easy wrt Edith's returning to be sisterly in attending the wedding and wishing her a happy future. (only on TV) 

 

Mary did not ruin Edith - as we were shown, she was not crushed but instead she was strong enough to continue her career in her magazine. It's unlikely that Bertie, a gentleman, would reveal to the others Marigold being Edith daughter - and only that information made public would cause a scandal. And even then Edith had an option: sell her magazine and flat, change her name and move to America with Marigold.

 

Mary did not even ruin Edith's chance of marriage and happiness, either - remember, Edith said to Bertie that she herself threw it away. Mary "only" ruined Edith's chance to tell Bertie herself which was bad enough for it would at least offered a chance that he would have accepted her as her wife but that wasn't by no means certain in that age.

 

Instead, Edith making a suicide was a real possibility that Mary should have considered when Edith disappeared in the end of S5 after learning about Gregson's death - but then Mary was completely indifferent and even Violet reproached her for it.     

[Avaleigh]

I knew they were going to rewrite history so that only Mary is to blame for their difficult relationship. They have both contributed to this toxic relationship, but somehow now Edith is just a poor victim. What a disappointment.

Seriously. It goes both ways and it did at the breakfast table. Tom even saw what Edith was doing and told her not to go there but Edith couldn't help herself. Edith likes needling Mary and she likes to gloat when she can. She did it here this season, at the end of last season, in seasons 4, 2, and 1. Even Edith acknowledges that it's a feud that's a long time in the making so she knows she participates but since we're near the very end people are going to remember this more. Plus, it overshadows the sweet scene where Edith explains why being sisters matters and is so important because most viewers are still upset over what happened with Bertie. 

 

Edith was an idiot, too. She should have told Bertie of course, but she's a coward as usual. 

Pretty much. I will give her credit for recognizing that the biggest reason she isn't with Bertie is because she didn't trust him. In her own words, she tried to "trick" him and she understands why he's hurt by that. The breakfast scene would have played out in an entirely different way if she'd trusted him with the truth because he already understands what kind of person Mary is and how she treats her sister. He's not letting Mary come in between them it's all about him reacting to how he feels Edith treated him.  

I guess I'm in the minority here because I think Bertie was too hard on Edith. Surely he could understand how difficult it would be for a woman in her station to admit that she had an illegitimate child. And how dense was he that he couldn't pick up on the signals that there was something in her past bothering her? I too think that before megabitch Mary opened her mouth Edith was still trying to figure out how to break the news. To me, Bertie's reaction was all about him.

I cheered when Mrs. Hughes mentioned all of the adulterers who had dined upstairs at the Grantham's table. Touché!

I feel like this is expecting the character to be incredibly modern and forward thinking and he's been established as being very traditional. Edith has been lying to him the entire time and while it's understandable that she start off with the cover story for the sake of appearances, once he started talking about how he'll have new life that's on display I think she owed it to him to be honest so that he could make an informed decision on whether or not this would be something that they could weather together. Edith didn't trust that he would want to be with her anyway and that hurt his feelings and understandably. He looked wounded when she admitted that she didn't trust him. 

[Roseanna]

I think it was out of character. As you wrote: Mary has never been so downright mean and out to destroy Edith. She has been nasty to her and bitchy, but to ruin her life? That was out of character for me. Especially since Mary is in her 30s now. Where does this absolute hate come from all the sudden? In series 1 we saw them both bitching and nasty, then in season 2, they actually got along quite well, in season 3 as well and then all the sudden in season 5 and 6 Mary becomes a total monster towards Edith. 

 

Well, I would not have written Mary's character thus but Fellowes has and there is a real pattern since S5. 

 

After Mary had herself chosen not to marry Gillingham, she deliberately hurt Edith who was mourning over Gregson. Putting "kindly", she couldn't stand Edith's grief as it reminded her of her own grief over Matthew. Putting it less kindly, she thought that Edith couldn't have as great as sorrow as herself. Or she couldn't stand her own misery, thinking that she had no chance to find a new love, and must revenge it on Edith.

 

Also, as I said above, Mary was totally indifferent when Edith disappeared although any sensible person would have been afraid of suicide, like her or not.

 

Now, Mary has said to no to Tony and she is angry when he had actually believed her words and left, and Edith is for the first time better off than her - I don't say Mary actually planed it but given her history of meanness, it was no surprise. 

  

Plus, Mary's self image has always based on the assumption that she is better than Edith in everything which was indeed true in their youth. She has never realized that Edith has changed. She couldn't believe that no man could be interested in Edith, although every sensible person knows that one can't predict who falls in love with whom. She couldn't stand that Robert praised Edith when she edited her magazine. She couldn't figure out Marigold although the clues were right before her nose. She was hurt that her family, most of all Tom, hadn't told her because they didn't trust her. She believed that Bertie would abandon Edith when he became a Marquess.

 

All in all, Mary has underestimated Edith in every way but instead of admitting to herself that it was due to her hubris and try won her basic character fault, she reacted by trying to put Edith back in the place she was in their childhood.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Roseanna

[Milburn Stone]

I love Bertie and love Bertie-and-Edith, but Edith really dodged a bullet. You can see in that last, luminous shot that she will be just fine without him. The lighting was practically beatific.

I said on last week's thread that going to Brancaster with Bertie would mean that Edith would have to take Marigold away from her home yet again. Away from George and Sybbie, with whom she seems to have a fine and happy relationship. Edith would have to leave her magazine. Marigold would be different from any children of Bertie and Edith because even though Bertie could adopt her, she could not have a title. Edith still has to work through how and when to tell Marigold the truth, but Robert was likely prophetic when he said she "could be one of the interesting women of the day" without marrying Bertie.

Edith and Marigold would also have had to contend with Bertie's mother, apparently a pill. I think Our Lord Creator threw the difficult future mother-in-law cliche at us so that we wouldn't feel too badly over Edith's loss.

 

I love this post, because it actually changes me from feeling "oh no, this is awful, they must make Bertie come back to Edith in the Christmas episode," to "OMG, I hope they don't make Bertie come back to Edith in the Christmas episode."

[JudyObscure]

At least now I'm not sad about the series coming to and end. I'll never watch anything written by Sir Fellowes again.

For a few minutes, halfway in, I thought my wildest dreams for Edith would be met. She would marry happily and out rank her parents who admittedly "never talked about Edith," because they were sure she would be an old maid and her sister who was never anything but snide and cruel to her. Mary's sabotage of the engagement with Bertie was nothing new, it was a repeat of her sabotage of Edith's pending engagement to Sir Anthony at the fete at the start of WWI. Mary intercepted Strallen on his way to propose to Edith, lying to say that Edith was hiding from some old man who was going to propose.

That Fellowes let us see Mary destroy Edith's future and then expected us to be crying tears of joy for her a few minutes later, shows he is just not the writer for me. Mary has been a hateful bitch from day one. Sneering at Matthew for not knowing what fork to use, sneering at Edith for crying over the death of their cousin, turning down Matthew's proposal because it looked like he might not inherit Downton, marrying Matthew and keeping him firmly under her thumb making sure he went against his principles about his inheritance so as to be "on her side." Aside from a few kindnesses to servants she's been a snotty bitch everyday all day, not even showing a moment's sympathy to the injured soldiers. Yet, we're supposed to love her and root for her and rejoice at her happiness? Why? Because she's the prettiest one?

We Edith fans may get a bone thrown to us at the Christmas special but Edith-and-Bertie are sort of ruined now that she didn't get a chance to tell him about Marigold before Mary did. I thought Edith was trying to, when they were whispering at the top of the stairs, but she needed time and privacy to tell him the whole story about Grayson going to Germany to get a divorce, the baby in Switzerland and so on. I think, particularly with Cora's strong advice, that she would have told him everything that morning but she didn't get the chance. Now neither Bertie nor Edith can ever be sure she would have found the courage. Seeing Edith smiling at the children didn't say to me that that was all she needed because I don't think children alone are ever all a person needs.

[roomtorome]

Thinking about it this morning - I think Mary got exactly what she deserved for all her crappy, self-centered, nasty behavior:  a shallow husband with an uninteresting mind and career as well.  Worse, someone with zero sense of humor (that we have seen anyway) and someone who is as shallow as she is - great love? phffftttt....Phooey and baloney!  But - good for her - may they live well picking at each other until death they do part.  

 

I still don't understand why so many people fully believe Edith was not going to tell Bertie - she did NOT accept his proposal and while she did have some opportunities to tell him, it is the sort of thing that does take time to explain and we don't know what her ultimate decision might have been.  But, I was pleased to see her not wallowing in her hurt but getting involved in her work and being in generally good spirits.  

 

If there is one thing that Fellowes simply cannot do at all is subtle.  

[Andorra]

Well, I would not have written Mary's character thus but Fellowes has and there is a real pattern since S5. 

 

After Mary had herself chosen not to marry Gillingham, she deliberately hurt Edith who was mourning over Gregson. Putting "kindly", she couldn't stand Edith's grief as it reminded her of her own grief over Matthew. Putting it less kindly, she thought that Edith couldn't have as great as sorrow as herself. Or she couldn't stand her own misery, thinking that she had no chance to find a new love, and must revenge it on Edith.

 

I completely disagree about this scene. Mary simply didn't see the depth of Edith's grief in the "haircut scene". And since Edith had also deliberately lied to her family about the nature of her relationship with Gregson, I understand why Mary didn't see it. 

Then in the actual scene Mary got a haircut and it wasn't just Mary who was "insensitive". Edith's whole family planned a picnic an Edith was mad about this already before Mary appeared. So when Mary came down with her haircut, Edith threw a major scene. From her perspective the family was insensitive, but from the family's perspective Edith was over dramatic. They didn't know Edith was in love with Gregson, they didn't know they wanted to marry, they didn't know he was married to an insane woman and that Edith had a daughter with him. For them he was just an acquaintance that Edith had a crush on and he was gone for over a year. 

[Roseanna]

Seriously. It goes both ways and it did at the breakfast table. Tom even saw what Edith was doing and told her not to go there but Edith couldn't help herself. Edith likes needling Mary and she likes to gloat when she can. She did it here this season, at the end of last season, in seasons 4, 2, and 1.

 

That Edith stings a needle on Mary, doesn't really explain why Mary reacts by hitting her with a hammer, and especially not why Mary started this behavior again in S5. 

 

However, there is one clue: in CS Edith's needling that Mary can't stand when the others moved on probably hurt Mary because it was true (although not kind) as it was true now that Mary couldn't stand Edith being better off than her.

 

Mary "couldn't help herself" even if she with her reaction proved that what Edith said was true. It was odd because Mary is proud and most proud persons wouldn't react in the same way, if only because if they did, they couldn't respect themselves.  

[AndySmith]

I have a feeling Bertie will be back. Given how predictable things have been (Mary telling Bertie about Marigold, Thomas's suicide, Mary and Henry hooking up), I'm sure Bertie will be back with Edith in the CS with the engagement back on and/or married by the end of the episode. Of course, there is also Isobel, and given that GF wants everything and everyone (besides Tom, it seems) wrapped up in a nice big bow, she also has her thing with either Lord Merton or Dr. Clarkson. Then again, although I still like Isobel with Dr. Clarkson, I'm guessing that ship has sailed. If so, we'll either have Edith married and Isobel engaged to be married, or vice versa. Unless JF just says fcuk it and we get a double wedding?

 

It would be interesting if Isobel married Lord Merton. While she wouldn't outrank the Crawley's or Bertie, who would have thought of all people Isobel would have ended the series with a title?

 

Speaking of Bertie...his inheritance of the title probably caused the plot contrivance fairy to work the most overtime she's worked since Matthew inherited Lavinia's fortune to save Downtown in season 3.

 

I'm one of the few who like Mary and Henry, it seems, and also likes the chemistry between the actors. As with many things on this show, they are let down by the writing. Everything in this episode felt so rushed. It needed more time to develop and play out, even if I did like the final result. I also felt the Bernie/Edith relationship needed more time too. It would have been better had there been more time in-between his proposal and him finding out about Marigold. I felt it would have been better seeing Edith wrestle with telling him a bit more, plus it would have given her not telling a bit more heft had she been quiet about it for a longer period of time as an engaged couple. I also would have liked to see more scenes of Thomas trying to find work outside of working at family homes. Seeing him get rejections from hotels and/or restaurants would have made his hopelessness and bleakness at his future more palatable.

 

But no, lets have lots of boring scenes about the hospital merger drama and Baxter's off-screen legal whatevers and Denker & Spratt's not interesting game of Tom & Jerry instead.

 

I'm not sure if Mary would have blurted out Edith's secret if Edith hadn't stirred the hornets nest. Also...why were they waiting for Mary to break the news but Robert had just left and...nobody could wait for Cora either? I guess the plot contrivance fairy worked overtime for this scene as well.

Edited February 22, 2016 by AndySmith

[Roseanna]

I completely disagree about this scene. Mary simply didn't see the depth of Edith's grief in the "haircut scene". And since Edith had also deliberately lied to her family about the nature of her relationship with Gregson, I understand why Mary didn't see it. 

Then in the actual scene Mary got a haircut and it wasn't just Mary who was "insensitive". Edith's whole family planned a picnic an Edith was mad about this already before Mary appeared. So when Mary came down with her haircut, Edith threw a major scene. From her perspective the family was insensitive, but from the family's perspective Edith was over dramatic. They didn't know Edith was in love with Gregson, they didn't know they wanted to marry, they didn't know he was married to an insane woman and that Edith had a daughter with him. For them he was just an acquaintance that Edith had a crush on and he was gone for over a year. 

 

Actually we saw already in the beginning of the episode that both Robert and the servants were expecting that Edith would take the news (and they knew the news were going to be bad as they were delivered in person) and that Robert wanted to be with her for that reason. We saw also Mary joking about that  Gregson couldn't live in a tree so coldly that even the loyal Anna was shocked. And we saw that Robert told Cora that Edith must have loved Gregson. We saw also that the servants were full of sympathy towards Edith and only Thomas reacted like Mary. 

 

As Anna said, to Edith Gregson died today. As an empathic person Anna knew that even if she had lost Bates before they were married, she would have mourned him deeply, although to the others it would have been a "crush".

 

Even if Mary was the only one in the house that didn't realize the depth of Edith's feelings, any normally sensitive person would have felt empathy even towards a neighbor whose dog had died, not to speak of a family member's friend being murdered.  Or she would have at least said "I am really sorry" after she had realized that she had been wrong and that the other was really mourning.

 

As for Edith reacting "overly dramatic", Mary was a real drama queen in S1. She even left the room and wept when Robert praised Matthew, that is, of sheer jealousy.

 

Interpreting "kindly", Mary couldn't stand Edith grief because she was still grieving for Matthew and/or because she has decided to dump Gillingham and didn't believe if she ever found a new love. 

 

Then as now Edith was a suitable scapegoat for Mary who is completely unable to handle her own emotions.

[Peanutbuttercup]

Here is my incredibly important, deep, and insightful comment on this show: based on my personal experience with gastrectomy, you are not eating scones (or more than a couple bites of them), ever, and no way in hell are you asking for seconds especially what is probably just a couple of months after surgery. It would be more realistic for Lord Grantham to be eating a tiny dish of broth or custard even months after surgery.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Peanutbuttercup

[proserpina65]

Edith's far more forgiving than I would've been, but at least the reconciliation didn't come down to "we're sisters, we love each other really" but rather "someday we'll be the only ones who remember the people we've loved and lost and it'd be easier if we didn't hate each other".  That was far more in character for both Edith and Mary than anything else would've been.

[terrymct]

Mary, how do I hate thee?  Let me count the ways.  It was nice finally to see everyone but Carson basically tell her she's horrible, including her father.   Mary hasn't really grown much in the whole series, except in that she'll accept a suitor who is beneath her social level.  That's not substantial growth.  It's not like Talbot is a hobo.  Mary's weak a$% apology to Edith was as much a product of Mary losing face with everyone (maybe more so) than it was feeling empathy for Edith.  Edith's not a treat (ruining the Drewe family's lives, for instance) but she's grown tremendously since the series began.   She should have told Bertie, but didn't deserve being slut shamed over the breakfast table.   I'm unhappy that Mary gets her happy ending, but Fellows seems to really like that character no matter how bad he has her be.

 

Carson needs to have some darn come-uppance.  He's a sour old bastard in these last few episodes, more one dimensional than he used to be.  I wonder if Thomas' attempted suicide will really give him the change of heart that was hinted at at the end of the episode.

 

Spratt as an agony auntie is awesome and hilarious, the first time I think I've liked the character.   Hopefully that takes him out of the Dowager's service.

[Roseanna]

I'm not sure if Mary would have blurted out Edith's secret if Edith hadn't stirred the hornets nest.

 

It's possible but Mary was already angry and hurt after learning that Henry had left although she had anew said no to him. In addition, Mary deliberately send Carson out of room to fetch more coffee. In short, Mary was a volcano ready to disrupt.

 

But the basic reason was her character as both Tom and Edith said.

[AndySmith]

No, it's just as possible she'd have just sat there and sulked and side-eyed if Edith hadn't kept poking her.

Edited February 22, 2016 by AndySmith

[lovinbob]

All the awards to Laura Carmichael tonight. You could practically see an invisible line physically pulling her toward Bertie in their scenes.

Molesley made my eyes sting, too, when he was taking to the kids about the importance of education. What a decent man. It's hard to believe he used to be such a pathetic figure.

 

Agree about Laura Carmichael, and also about Molesley. At first I was worried that they set him up to end up a buffoon yet again--I was so thrilled when (unrealistically) the children all came around.

[roomtorome]

For anyone who has been reading The Guardian's delightful reviews of the episodes - this is yet another one on this episode (no spoilers about the final episode) - it is, as always very amusing and a good read pretty much catching much of what posters here have been saying: 

http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2015/nov/08/downton-abbey-recap-series-six-episode-eight-uncle-julian-finally-pulls-it-off

 

Enjoy!  I am really looking forward to reading the one after the final episode....  Oh, and do take a peek if you have time at the comments to the article - some may seem very familiar

 

Golden eyebrows all around I suspect - 

Edited February 22, 2016 by roomtorome

[Roseanna]

turning down Matthew's proposal because it looked like he might not inherit Downton,

 

Actually Mary didn't do it, she only didn't give him her answer yet. First, the reason was that Mary wanted to tell about Pamuk as she didn't want to deceive him even if the marriage had solved her problems. Then became Cora's pregnancy and in spite of it Mary had almost decided to marry Matthew until Rosamund made her hesitate by saying that Sybil would be happy in a cottage but not she. In  fact, Mary was only reasonable to ponder the matter before the marriage, for if she hadn't been contended in an upper middle class circumstances, she would have made also Matthew unhappy.

Remember also Violet's advice that she should accept Matthew now when he could be "poor" for then he would always love her but she could dump him if Cora's child were a boy. Wouldn't that be much worse what Mary actually did - hesitation? And it was Matthew who couldn't accept it because he wanted to be sure - but if she had accepted Violet's advice, his sureness would be founded on the sand. Isobel saw it already then that even if Mary made a mistake, Matthew made another mistake.

 

In a way, Bertie has now the same dilemma as Matthew had: he wants to be sure. And Edith was as honest as Mary was: both said that they believe that they had done what Bertie and Matthew wanted, but as there was no chance to prove that, they couldn't be sure.

 

In fact, Bertie blames Edith that she wouldn't trust him. But if Bertie had trusted Edith, he would have accepted her word and understood that the fact that she did not accept him as he assumed in the corridor and that she indeed offered him his freedom after he became a Marques, proves that she did not want to "trick" him.

[teddysmom]

Goddammit Fellowes!! You wait til the penultimate episode to start writing fantastic stories again!??!! 

 

I don't know what I enjoyed more. Mary & Anna laughing hysterically at Mrs Patmore, Edith FINALLY putting Mary in her place, Mosesley winning over the students.  And then Mary goes to Matthew's grave. OMFG. 

 

The Henry/Mary wedding was a little ridic, but I'll allow it because we got to see a yellow lab puppy chewing on a basket. 

 

All of this is why I fell in love with this show the very first episode.  I didn't even mean to record it back then, I just had Masterpiece on auto record and Downton Abbey showed up and I thought, hmmm let's see what this is about.

 

What a ride.  BANANAS!

Edited February 22, 2016 by teddysmom

[amensisterfriend]

As others have said, the pacing of this episode was just so egregiously awful. 

 

Speaking of egregiously awful: I used to like and defend Mary, but she's a disgusting person, and I don't want her to be happy. I'm pretty close to actively wanting her to be UNhappy. 

 

Tom's pointless role throughout this season as the chubby, asexual, what-is-he-even-still-doing-there?! wingman has me embarrassed for the character and the actor who was stuck playing him. 

 

I feel like they keep clunkily *telling* us Henry is strong, clever, etc. through other character's dialogue, but I honestly haven't seen much of it from Henry himself. He's always sort of just THERE for me. And I just don't see the overwhelming attraction and sex appeal. 

 

I actually liked a lot of this season, but this episode was almost enough to retrospectively ruin it for me. When the reveal that Spratt is the secret advice columnist is the undisputed high point for me, that doesn't say much for my feelings about the rest of the episode :) 

[Eolivet]

Of course Edith should have told Bertie, but then there would be no drama.

 

Before all, Mary was in the same situation in S1 and she didn't tell Matthew (after that became Cora's pregnancy) and S2 she told him only after Robert was told by Cora why Mary didn't break with Carlisle and Matthew figured out there must be some reason and asked her and in that situation they weren't lovers.

 

I'm not sure why this isn't getting discussed more, because it stuck out to me like a sore thumb: Mary is seeing a replaying of her exact situation in season 1 -- she's lost love, and there's a scandal that has a chance to ruin a relationship. Only this time, they're not both happening to her. She's getting the chance to see what alternate path she could've taken: (seemingly) stay silent about the secret and keep the man she loved (her situation was slightly more complex with the heir, but it started out the same). She's seeing years of unhappiness she suffered for ostensibly doing the right thing, and seeing Edith (seemingly) do the easy thing. And also like 1x07, Mary has seen her chance for happiness slip away, so she decides to ruin Edith's. The more things change, etc.

 

Of course, this is all inference based on past seasons, but I think Fellowes had a chance to make this a more multi-dimensional story if he'd signposted it more -- if Matthew wasn't such a persona non grata, invoking him or having someone else invoke him (Cora or Robert or someone who was there) might've made Mary slightly more sympathetic. It's like her life was replaying itself again, 10 years later, and seeing a version of what it could've been compared to what it is now.

 

But I give Mary a little latitude here because Fellowes clearly used her as a plot device. He wasn't even really trying with this story -- Edith actually said "I've ruined everything" to Bertie, and I think even the same "caught him with a lie" phrase to Cora that Mary used with Cora (again, where is Cora's memory? She acts like "my daughter has a scandalous secret that could ruin her future marriage" is brand new information). The circumstances weren't identical (since Bertie knew the secret, and it was an interesting reversal with "heir potentially loses prospects" to "man with no prospects inherits title"), but the whole Scandal Gets in the Way of Love has certainly been done before, and Mary was certainly involved then.

[proserpina65]

Mary also said something incredibly rude to her father upon hearing of Thomas's suicide attempt. She was deliberately cruel to him in the presence of her mother and aunt. Edith would have never done such a thing. Say what you will about Edith's cruelties to Mary way back in season one, but Mary continues to be selfish and mean to others to this day. She wins the Queen Bitch title hands down. I'm relieved that Tom didn't end up with such a terrible woman.  

Edith actually grew up and changed as a character.  Mary, not so much.  She's still pretty much the spoiled bitch she was in season one.

[AndySmith]

http://www.theguardi...ly-pulls-it-off

 

Coffee Man...heh.

 

Fellowes clearly used her as a plot device

 

The problem is the plot seems to be driving the characters, not the other way around. The whole breakfast revelation was really clunky. Why were Bertie and Edith waiting for Mary, of all people, to arrive, to make their announcement, and only after Robert left and not even wait for Cora?

 

For all the talk of Mary being JF's favorite, he really miscalculated this scene. There were so many other ways he could have had Coffee Man find out about Marigold via Mary. He could have overheard Mary and Cora having a discussion about it and put two and two together. He could have have done it Soap Opera Style and had Mary and Edith arguing, thinking they're alone, and have Coffee Man walk in at the exact moment Mary mentions Marigold is Edith's daughter. This was just a badly written episode, plot wise.

Edited February 22, 2016 by AndySmith

[SunnyBeBe]

Mary can be as mean as she wants and it will be overlooked.  It frustrates me, but I really wonder if she's more than a narcissist.  Is she a sociopath? Really.  Some people are too toxic to share your life with. Edit can't see that.  

 

I do think that Tom should share in the blame though.  He KNEW that confirming the truth about Marigold would launch Mary on a mission to harm Edith.  He should have WARNED Edith that Mary had figured it out the day before.  THEN he has the nerve to encourage Bertie to proceed with the announcement at the breakfast table KNOWING that Mary was super steamed.  He couldn't have set it up to blow any more if he were trying to sabotage Edith.  Not good, IMO.  

[Artymouse]

My gosh, I couldn't believe how much I hated Mary by the end of the episode! She was just venomous, and Tom's takedown of her was spot-on, so bravo for him. By the end, I didn't care whether she married Henry or not, but I did like Edith's gracious return for the wedding and what she said to Mary about why she came back. I really and truly hope Bertie reconsiders and marries Edith. Never mind love; I want Edith to outrank Mary.

 

Looks like almost everyone here called it that Thomas would attempt suicide; very thankful that he didn't succeed. This season, in particular, Baxter has become one of my favorite characters. She has so much kindness, and I was glad she was the one who found and saved Thomas.

 

"Golly gumdrops!" is my new favorite expression. 

[MakeMeLaugh]

I am so in love with Edith right now. Such a complex situation (and she really had opened the door to telling Bertie by saying her life is so complicated. A simple "How so?" from him in response, and she might have told him all). Laura Carmichael is amazing and she ultimately has had the best storylines of the show and of the sisters, even though she is still "Poor Edith." Poor Michelle Dockery must be so sick of playing arch and having pretty much nothing happen to her character except one beau after another. Would she marry Henry, wouldn't she marry Henry--who cares, there would just be another beau if she didn't. I look forward to seeing her in other roles.

I think Marigold looks just like Bertie. No one would even think she wasn't his daughter.

Mrs Hughes is playing so much younger and Carson is playing so much older now that they are married. He is a pill, isn't he? And asking Robert if he is sure he wants to go have tea in Mrs Patmore's B&B&House of Ill Repute? Rather presumptious of him to question M'lord like that!

I have been reading about Brendan Coyle's struggles with alcohol and noticing how few lines Bates had in this episode--in the first season he was a main character and now he is hardly a character at all.

I am spoiled about this show (on purpose--yeah, I like the double reveal) so knew Thomas did not commit suicide, but I had no idea he was going to attempt it. So shocking, that bloody bathtub. That scene, starting with Baxter bolting from Molesley's side to Andy kicking in the bathroom door, was riveting.

Loved the Cassandra Jones reveal. Bananas!

Edited February 22, 2016 by MakeMeLaugh

[SusanSunflower]

Agree -- in hindsight, Tom definitely should have sought out Edith and warned her.  Mary managed to quickly descend into Cruella DeVille territory, despite our speculations that she'd be sobered or "hurt" to find out she'd been kept in the dark.  Did Tom merely acknowledge Marigold ....?  Too bad we weren't allowed to see that conversation (if it occurred) between Tom and Mary since it makes Mary's lashing out at Edith even worse. 

Yes, also that this sort of business whereby Bertie makes it "impossible" for Edith to finish a sentence much less "tell him about Marigold" is also tedious ... and if not Bertie, someone else would have interrupted their "moment" ... but, no Edith was not just going to slip Marigold's "real identity" into conversation ... standing in the hall, saying good night.  Edith's back-to-work "recovery" from Bertie's departure was simply absurd, imho. Gregson had been gone and then was missing for an extended period during which all hope was lost before being declared d.e.a.d.  Bertie was still out there, about to fly to "exotic" Tangiers and she's  trying to act like he's just stepped out to buy some cigarettes and she's over it and they will never speak again.... because teevee. 

 

ETA:  James-Collier got very badly short-changed by being unconscious for his big close-up all  handled much too perfunctorily ... not a tear was shed by anyone. 

Edited February 22, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[abbyzenn]

I cringe every time I hear one of the actors talk about what a fabulous writer JF is.  This episode was just such a mishmash much like the whole season.  Too much time wasted on story lines (the hospital) or characters virtually no one cares about (Denker).  Inside of spending so much time on that (and I'll include the racing scenes, Baxter and the court, first scene of Moseley teaching, how many visits with Larry Grey's finance and a whole host I can't list) JF could have developed a reasonable Henry/Mary story line.

Henry came with a marriage license??????  How many times have they actually met?  This series took place over a very short time not a year so that relationship just doesn't make sense.

I would have preferred it ending with Mary getting Downton - which has always been her goal since Season 1 - and maybe seeing Henry - not rushing into marriage.

Edith has no one to blame except herself.  She had numerous chances to tell Bertie but she didn't.

Edith did gloat at the breakfast table - Tom even tried to tell her to back off - but she didn't.  She did say SHE WAS GETTING MARRIED and Mary couldn't stand to see her happy.  Sounds like even if she hadn't told Bertie before she accepted his proposal at that breakfast table.

Plus the Bertie/Edith relationship was also very rushed.  It seems like it was only the second time they were together and he said he was in love with her.

Edith rushes off to London once again without Marigold. 

[LadyintheLoop]

Such a complex situation (and she really had opened the door to telling Bertie by saying her life is so complicated. A simple "How so?" from him in response, and she might have told him all).

 

 

I think Edith was trying to get there in stages. First, when Bertie proposed, she implied that she and Marigold were a package deal; then in the corridor, I think she was winding up to tell him that she wasn't a virgin. If he'd accepted that, the last step would have been a lot easier.

 

When Edith told Mary that she and Henry were  right for each other, I hope she meant, "You're two shallow, creepy a-holes who need to marry so that you can make two people miserable instead of four." I'd love to see the CS play out that way (I know, fat chance).  

[ShadowFacts]

 

We Edith fans may get a bone thrown to us at the Christmas special but Edith-and-Bertie are sort of ruined now that she didn't get a chance to tell him about Marigold before Mary did.

 

Even though Edith is still on my shit list regarding how badly she used the Drewes, I won't feel like her love story is ruined if Bertie reconsiders, because they still will have triumphed over Mary's unbelievably hateful behavior.

 

I don't necessarily think Mary has the happy ending here, she had a wedding, which is a different thing.  Not only do she and Henry not know each other well/long enough, he is a thrill-seeking risk-taker, and what else?  Empty suit, but then she may have gotten what she deserves.  On the other hand, Edith notably did not fall completely to pieces.  She was able to joke with her editor, be happy for Mary, give a speech about sisterhood that Mary should have actually given Edith, and generally act like an adult.  I'll take her ending, if it is, over Mary's any day.

[JudyObscure]

Several posts seem to be saying that Edith "started it," at the breakfast table, but I actually think Mary started it with her screaming silence after Bertie's announcement. Tom expressed his pleasure and then Bertie looked pointedly at Mary for a long minute. All Mary had to do was mutter a cold, "Congratulations," but she wouldn't do even that, causing Bertie to look at Edith for an explanation. Maybe if Edith wasn't put on the spot by both Mary and Bertie she could have come up with a tactful explanation for her sisters shocking rudeness, but as it was she blurted out the truth.

The "Bitch," scene was entertaining but didn't begin to satisfy me. Mary really doesn't care what Edith thinks of her and so a quick bit of name calling wouldn't have hurt her. I'm really sorry Edith was in London when Mary and Henry announced their engagement so Edith would have had the opportunity to say to Henry, "Oh, so you've forgiven Mary for her past!" and given a recap of Mary's history from Pamuk through the hotel holiday with Toni Gillingham, assuming Edith had sussed that out. Now that might actually have hurt Mary, particularly if Carson had been present.

[txhorns79]

On the other hand, Edith notably did not fall completely to pieces.  She was able to joke with her editor, be happy for Mary, give a speech about sisterhood that Mary should have actually given Edith, and generally act like an adult.  I'll take her ending, if it is, over Mary's any day.

 

I suppose once you have been left at the altar, and have your paramour mysteriously vanish/end up murdered (after you have birthed his child!), you take a broken engagement in stride. 

[AndySmith]

but I actually think Mary started it with her screaming silence after Bertie's announcement

 

Edith started pushing when she kept insisting that Henry dumped Mary.

[Capricasix]

, if the sisters want a fight, cool, go to the yard and pact a duel in the morning

This just gave me a hilarious vision of Mary and Edith on the lawns of Downton, 20 paces apart, with pistols drawn :D

[FineWashables]

 

I wonder if Bertie's mother will play a role in the Christmas Special. Maybe she'll go head to head with Violet.

Yes.  I want this!  Wouldn't it be wonderful if they cast Joan Collins for the role?  I'd love to see Violet smack her down.

[izabella]

I think Edith was trying to get there in stages. First, when Bertie proposed, she implied that she and Marigold were a package deal; then in the corridor, I think she was winding up to tell him that she wasn't a virgin. If he'd accepted that, the last step would have been a lot easier.

 

Edith had at least one other scene with Bertie after he came back to Downton when she could have told him about Marigold, before the corridor discussion.  It had been a while since he first proposed to her, she had plenty of time to give it thought even before his cousin died and he became the Marquess.  After he arrived at Downton, he and Edith went for a walk and were alone outside sitting on a bench - that's when she should have been honest with him if not sooner.  But she chose to continue her lie.

 

I think that's why she made peace with Mary.  She knew she'd had a chance to be honest with Bertie and wasn't, so all Mary did was bring to light her lies - she was the one who lied, however.

I wonder if Bertie's mother will play a role in the Christmas Special. Maybe she'll go head to head with Violet.

 

Cora should have taken Edith aside for a moment and had a conversation with her about difficult mothers-in-law.

Edited February 22, 2016 by izabella

[Constantinople]

The idea that no one in the family other than Edith knew that Bertie was the heir to Hexham seems a little unlikely.

 

These people, and Carson, are obsessed with social position and don't have a lot to do.

 

In Season 1, there was talk about cracking open the books to check on Mary's various suitors.

 

In Season 2, Carson remarked that Lavinia Swire was not in Burke's Peerege or Burke's Landed Gentry.

 

Violet knew that there were about 40 strong, healthy men between Talbot and the Earldom of Shrewsbury.

 

But no one has any idea that Bertie was the heir?

[teddysmom]

Mary also said something incredibly rude to her father upon hearing of Thomas's suicide attempt. She was deliberately cruel to him in the presence of her mother and aunt. Edith would have never done such a thing. Say what you will about Edith's cruelties to Mary way back in season one, but Mary continues to be selfish and mean to others to this day. She wins the Queen Bitch title hands down. I'm relieved that Tom didn't end up with such a terrible woman. 

Edith actually grew up and changed as a character.  Mary, not so much.  She's still pretty much the spoiled bitch she was in season one.

 

I forgot about her awful comment to Robert about Thomas.  I did yell at the tv - "You just can't stop being a bitch, can you?"

 

My sister and I have a relationship very much like Mary & Edith.  She has said things to me that even her husband has chastised her for.  I finally got fed up and did exactly what Edith did, and finally got some respect.  With people like Mary, if you're a doormat, they'll treat you like one.  

[Eyes High]

I didn't realize the word "bitch" was used to refer to people like Mary back then!!

 

1936 is not 1925, but The Women, a play written by Clare Boothe Luce in that year, alluded to this insult:

 

"And by the way, there's a name for you ladies, but it isn't used in high society...outside of a kennel."

[Alonzo Mosely FBI]

Bananas! I loved how much "happened" in this episode as much as I hate Mary.

 

Concerned on where Barrow is going to go. I like him. I want him to find a cushy job in service with someone who is a liberal thinker- much as Bertie seemed sympathetic to his cousin in Tangiers maybe he could go there. 

 

"A house of ill REPUTE?" haha Mrs. Patmore steals the show gettin' the vapors. LOL 

 

Maybe the gist of the whole 6 seasons was that Mary will get the shaft in the long run with a miserable marriage to Talbot, and maybe Edith the happy ending. 

[fishcakes]

I wish we could have seen Bertie's cousin, if only to see how frail a man would have to be in order for Bertie to consider him frail.

 

Edith didn't start it at the breakfast table. She started it sometime before 1912 when she was trying to take Patrick away from Mary, later when she tried to take Matthew away from Mary, when she tried to ruin Mary's chances of every marrying anyone, and when she only became interested in Strallan because their parents intended him for Mary. Everything Edith said to Mary this episode, about how she was nasty and jealous and a bitch and can't stand it when things are going better for her sister than for herself, applies more to Edith and always has than it does to Mary. Mary telling Bertie about Marigold was a terrible thing to do and after Edith's "Henry abandoned you. I'm getting married and you lost your man and you can't stand it," on top of everything else she's done to Mary over the years, it was absolutely deserved. Mary's not a nice person, but the list of people that Edith has wronged is as long as your arm and it includes her own daughter. I have no doubt that Bertie is going to come back to Edith and she'll get her happy ending, but Bertie won't. He'll be stuck with that self-pitying viper forever.

[RedHawk]

Now that I've had time to think about it, I'd enjoy seeing Bertie return and carry Edith off to be Marchioness of Hexam, but if he doesn't then I'm fine with seeing her become the publisher of the most popular women's magazine in Britain and proud single mother of her child. Either way, Edith wins.

Edited February 23, 2016 by RedHawk

[Eyes High]

I wish we could have seen Bertie's cousin, if only to see how frail a man would have to be in order for Bertie to consider him frail.

 

Edith didn't start it at the breakfast table. She started it sometime before 1912 when she was trying to take Patrick away from Mary, later when she tried to take Matthew away from Mary, when she tried to ruin Mary's chances of every marrying anyone, and when she only became interested in Strallan because their parents intended him for Mary. Everything Edith said to Mary this episode, about how she was nasty and jealous and a bitch and can't stand it when things are going better for her sister than for herself, applies more to Edith and always has than it does to Mary. Mary telling Bertie about Marigold was a terrible thing to do and after Edith's "Henry abandoned you. I'm getting married and you lost your man and you can't stand it," on top of everything else she's done to Mary over the years, it was absolutely deserved. Mary's not a nice person, but the list of people that Edith has wronged is as long as your arm and it includes her own daughter. I have no doubt that Bertie is going to come back to Edith and she'll get her happy ending, but Bertie won't. He'll be stuck with that self-pitying viper forever.

 

If you truly think Mary is the more injured party in the Mary/Edith relationship...I don't know what to tell you, honestly, other than to suggest you rewatch the series.

 

It was nice to have Mary called out as the bully, coward, and despicable human being that she is. It took a long time, but it was delicious.

Edited February 22, 2016 by Eyes High

[fishcakes]

If you truly think Mary is the more injured party in the Mary/Edith relationship...I don't know what to tell you, honestly.

 

I don't think Mary is the more injured party. I think Edith is the more injured party and that she brought it on herself.

[SusanSunflower]

Actually, Edith was tickled that Mary was so startled, even shocked, to discover that Henry had simply left and without saying goodbye ... in that sense, it's not difficult to understand why she thought that Henry had "dumped" Mary ... and yes, that gave me a smile as well (to be followed by dismay when he so promptly returned, arms figuratively outstretched, when summoned)

[izabella]

Now that I've had time to think about it, I'd enjoy seeing Bertie return and carry Edith off to be Marchioness of Hexam, but if he diesn't then I'm fine with seeing her become the publisher of the most popular women's magazine in Britain and proud single mother of her child. Either way, Edith wins.

 

Edith is not, and would never be, a proud single mother.  She would never openly acknowledge Marigold is her daughter while she's single.  Marigold's parentage would still be a shameful secret to be kept from everyone but her family at Downton.