S01.E01: Pilot Part 1

[Sakura12]

I think Sara just had more of fuck it attitude. She was dead and missed a whole year of her life. She was brought back and is trying to live again. 

 

I also think she just adapts to any situation. They went back in time to the 70's why not go out and party.  

[Chicago Redshirt]

Chronos gets something of an upgrade from the comics -- I bet the actor is glad he doesn't have to wear the traditional green/yellow/red/white/black outfit.

 

Chronos in the comics is particularly an enemy for the Atom. I wonder if they will play that up with this version.

 

One of the things that stuck out though is it seems pretty pathetic that all of our Legends working together could not harm Chronos. I mean, among them, they have 5 with ranged weapons (Firestorm, Rip, Cold, Heat, Atom), 4 that can fly (the Hawks, Atom and Firestorm)  and, oh yeah, they have a ship, which presumably has some defense mechanisms to it (albeit an AI too stupid to take defensive measures without Rip's OK, or to contact Rip and get that OK.)

[sjohnson]

The decision making with the writers on these shows baffle me. How can they not see how things look?

 

I also don't know why we needed a reluctant one in the first place. Jax could've questioned it, then showed up at the last minute. 

Yeah, I find the Reluctant Hero trope to be kind of tired, especially when he was first kidnapped by Hunter in the act of heroizing. After that, it seemed so arbitrary that this guy would automatically duck out that chemical reversal didn't seem as outrageous as it really is. 

[catrox14]

 

Sara was a party girl before everything happened to her when she got on that boat with Oliver.  It might have been an effort for her to get back to normal and she did seem to be enjoying herself.

 

My comment was not a criticism of Sara's portrayal. Just saying that the differences between Arrow!Sara and Legends!Sara could be explained by the Lazarus Pit. They don't really know how it will affect her but she won't be the same. That was said in Arrow about anyone being put into the Pit.

[nksarmi]

Eh, regarding Stein drugging Jax - I think they covered it well enough.  I seem to remember that Stein actually studied and theorized about time travel.  This is something he probably never even dreamed he'd get a chance to do.  It goes way beyond being Firestorm. It was so compelling that he pulled a total selfish and dick move.  But it's believable.

 

As others have mentioned - their motivations aren't totally pure, "let's go be heroes" and I kind of like that.  From Rory on down, this isn't a self-sacrificing journey.  Heck, the closet to having a noble reason might actually be Jax and Sara.  He wants to part of a team and she wants to serve a good purpose.  But Rory wants revenge and a better future, the Hawks want their immortal enemy dead, Heat wants to kill people, Cold wants to pull off some major capers, Ray wants to matter to the world, and Stein wants the adventure of his dreams.  I like this because the audience can relate to one or several of these motivations.  It makes them all more real.

[Moya the Leviathan]

Cisco should really just open up a business where he makes costumes and weapons for a living, everyone and their momma goes to him for a clothes and weapons.

Meta-morphosis Marqueta.  Personal brand management, couture and scientific apparati. 

 "When you need an incredibly special vibe, you need Meta-morphosis Marqueta."

Cisco Ramon, very personal consultant

[Primal Slayer]

That training scene was better then half of the fights in S4 thus far. They did a good job with stunt work, incorporating Katie into it, A+.

[nksarmi]

I would say it's very clear that KC's has been working out as well.  Sure, she isn't up to Caity's level, but I can't deny she looks a hell of a lot better than she did in season two and tougher than she did in season one.  Honestly, seeing her now - it just makes me so sad that they didn't just give both sisters a martial arts background in high school.  I mean they played up the whole cop dad makes daughters take self-defense class early on - why not just say he pushed them into becoming black belts in high school.  It would have made Laurel's journey so much more palpable.  But oh well.

 

I honestly think this was their best moment as sisters like ever.  Too bad it came way too late.

[GirlvsTV]

It was kind of meh for me. I liked Sara and Rip. And I enjoyed Cold and Heatwave more than I expected to, since I quit watching The Flash last season. Really don't care for the Hawks. Hate their backstory and the truly terrible flashbacks - which brings me to the main problem: Vandal Savage.

I don't find Savage scary or even remotely interesting. And since his character is motivating all the action on this show, I'm not sure that is an issue LOT can overcome for me - unless they bump him off early and introduce another Big Bad.

Also, the only moment that had any emotional impact for me was hearing Rip talk about his family. Not a terribly original backstory, but I still found it compelling enough to hope he gets to see his mission through.

PS. I still find Ray Palmer incredibly irritating. Like, really really irritating.

PPS. I need to just accept the fact that no matter what kind fight scene they put Oliver in, he will never ever return to his former badass glory until he takes those stupid turtle shells off his shoulders.

[Sakura12]

Fighting, even stunt fighting takes more than working out, it takes training and skill. That's where KC is failing. You can clearly see the stunt double and when it is KC you can see how out of her element she is up against CL. Which in turn shows how far behind Laurel actually is. However that was probably the best scene for Laurel. But I will be happy to never her see her again. 

 

https://twitter.com/mimbomike/status/690396779930607616

This is a BTS vid of the rehearsal for the bar fight. It's Caity fighting with the stunt doubles for Cold and Heatwave. 

 

I haven't found Damien Darhk all that threatening on Arrow either. Ra's was a joke, Malcolm should've been gone seasons ago. So they've never really impressed me with their villains. It's a good thing I'm not watching the show for that. I could care less about the big bad. For me he's just a plot device to bring everyone together, I'm going to enjoy watching the character interactions in the different time periods. 

[Primal Slayer]

I loved Katie in this scene, they need to do this more often on Arrow with their stunt fighting.

[Netfoot]

I'm Un-following.  Too much comic-book talk for me.

[Check Sanity]

Sorry Cold, you're just not her type.  They were playing up Snart having a thing for Sara.

She dated Oliver before and after Nyssa, so I don't think we can rule out a Sara/Cold pairing if the writers decide to go down the route of more than friends.

 

Captain Cold and Heatwave not being remembered historically strongly suggests they were successful at getting away with their thieving, which should be very flattering to them. It's getting caught that makes thieves well-known! And White Canary should be pleased that her career as an assassin stayed out of historical records too. Is the show really trying to tell us the whole team is motivated by a lust for fame? Seriously?

There's a clip from The Flash of Cold saying something like "always happy to meet a fan", I think he's got a bit of an ego. Being remembered historically as thieves doesn't automatically mean they were caught. Though they were caught and spent time in jail, even if they ended up escaping, their names/nicknames are known. Having their names/nicknames known and leaving signatures, such as evidence of their respective guns could lead to a type of infamy, which is just as flattering. However, they didn't seem to care about that revelation one way or another. Neither did Sara, considering she's the one that pointed out the whole changing their futures thing to Ray. So, no, all of their motivation is not for fame. Cold wants to steal stuff, Heatwave wants to kill people, play with fire, and steal stuff, and Sara wants to be useful in a different way than she has in the past. 

The show was fun, I tend to keep an eye on the plot and watch episodes here and there of Arrow and The Flash based on how much my favourite characters are in it or what the story arc is, I'll do the same here. Right now I'm most interested in seeing how Sara, Snart, and Kendra evolve. I enjoy Heatwave as comic relief but don't know that he's a fully realized character yet. Ray I liked when interacting with Felicity, so until he finds someone in the group to banter with I don't know that I care. I'm not bothered by Hawkguy, but I kind of would like to see Kendra not fall in love with him and change things up. I like Victor Garber, but I didn't watch any of the episodes of The Flash involving him so I don't have any opinions on the character yet. The others are alright until something about them sparks my interest.

 

Edited January 23, 2016 by Check Sanity

[Sakura12]

I also don't think Sara's interested in fame, she's interested in having a purpose with her new life. Ray's the only one interested in the fame of it. 

[Mars477]

I think the best word for this show is uneven.  Cold, Heatwave, and Sara are pretty awesome together.  Jax and the Hawks are the worst of the bunch.  Actually, Hawkbro needs to go stat, but at the very least the Hawks need to be separated.  And pilots being pilots, some of the exposition dialogue was absolutely cringeworthy.

 

I don't have any problem with Dr. Stein drugging Jax.  Dude's an amoral jackass and that is A-okay.

 

I'm glad they didn't show Laurel defeat Sara in their sparring match.  That's something I was a little worried about seeing the trailers.

 

And damn, that bar fight was pretty awesome.

[Duke Silver]

Not as horrid as I truly expected it to be (since it is the spawn of TPTB behind Arrow & Flash, shows I used to like & no longer watch).  Given how interwoven all the DC series are, it's highly unlikely I'll follow LoT beyond the first couple episodes.  I have no time to spend on what I assume will end up being a trainwreck in no time. It was still cool to see Sara kicking ass again on my screen.

[HighwayFlower]

I actually liked Jax. It was only the Hawks that I found annoying. Hopefully with the negative feedback, the show will background them a bit and focus more on the other characters. Heat/Cold & Sara are gold!

[HighwayFlower]

It is disappointing, because while they didn't have that many scenes, I loved Sara's friendship with Felicity on Arrow and had hoped to see her and Hawkgirl have a strong friendship. I wanted to like Kendra, but I don't.

[johntfs]

I wonder if they're going to address the idea that a goodly portion of "the past" really sucks donkey balls for people who looks like Kendra and Jax.  If it turns out that the team has to get some doodad out of a plantation house in 1850s Alabama, that's not going to be awesome for them.  Unless Jax as Firestorm nukes the house Django style.

[BkWurm1]

I mostly like it. I'm willing to give it a chance.

 

Though I have one point that keeps gnawing at me.  If the Rogues and Sara were to stay on the ship, where did they get money to go to the bar? Most likely their money is current, especially the paper money. And I haven't seen a pre-1990's coin in a while. What are the chances their money all had 1975 and earlier years on them?  Since Heat grabbed them, I'm thinking some guy didn't just get them cuz Sara's hot.  I know, I'm overthinking.

I had to ponder this as well.  Decided either it was a case of single dollar bills really haven't changed in appearance and the bartender just grabbed them and tossed them in the cash resister without noticing the dates or maybe Rip had a stash of appropriately dated cash just hanging around.  Or the even more likely option, they robbed someone and used their cash.  I mean, they stole a car and started a bar fight.  Yeah, they probably just swiped someone's wallet. 

 

The thing that gets me though is that we see Oliver talking with Ray and there is NOT ONE MENTION of the fact that Felicity was just paralyzed and that Ray's nanotechnology might be helpful here. NOT ONE MENTION.  This is why sometimes the cross-overs don't work for me. 

 

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how nanites that dissolved a blood clot would be helpful with a spinal cord injury. 

 

I had a problem with Stein forcing Jax to go against his will and no one questioning whether the passed out guy really wanted to time travel or not. I also thought it was disturbing when Mick Rory made some comment about getting some more of the drug Stein used. I think (hope) he wanted the drug so he could use it to steal things from passed out people and not so he could use it to, well, "get his Bill Cosby on" as someone said upthread. 

I took it as Mick was just looking to get his buzz on. 

 

Chronos gets something of an upgrade from the comics -- I bet the actor is glad he doesn't have to wear the traditional green/yellow/red/white/black outfit.

 

Chronos in the comics is particularly an enemy for the Atom. I wonder if they will play that up with this version.

 

One of the things that stuck out though is it seems pretty pathetic that all of our Legends working together could not harm Chronos. I mean, among them, they have 5 with ranged weapons (Firestorm, Rip, Cold, Heat, Atom), 4 that can fly (the Hawks, Atom and Firestorm)  and, oh yeah, they have a ship, which presumably has some defense mechanisms to it (albeit an AI too stupid to take defensive measures without Rip's OK, or to contact Rip and get that OK.)

The Hawks flew at him but they didn't have long range weapons.  Rip took a few shots at him but seemed out gunned.  Firestorm was split and Ray didn't have his suit.  The ship took a bunch of hits so by the time Ray and Firestorm were of any use they seemed to be more there to make it possible for the Waverider to escape (with heavy damages and a dude that needed medical attention) then with the intent to take out Chronos.  It all seemed reasonable to me.  

 

Not as horrid as I truly expected it to be (since it is the spawn of TPTB behind Arrow & Flash, shows I used to like & no longer watch).  Given how interwoven all the DC series are, it's highly unlikely I'll follow LoT beyond the first couple episodes.  I have no time to spend on what I assume will end up being a trainwreck in no time. It was still cool to see Sara kicking ass again on my screen.

From what the show runners are saying, LoT won't be heavily connected to Arrow and Flash due to the time travel stuff.  More likely to get a cameo here and there rather than any attempt at following the timeline of what's happening with either of the other shows. 

[foreverevolving]

First off - I loved it.

 

The only issue I have is the idea that Hawkgirl and the ATOM are "insignificant" when the Flash's Gideon has a newspaper article of them fighting the Reverse Flash along with BC, GA, and the Flash.  I also have a hard time believing Firestorm doesn't make an impact as a hero.

 

But I'm still going to go with it because generally speaking - I loved it.

If I were to hazard a guess I would say that their known contribution is seen as insignificant because they were time traveling - which mean they had to remain on the low key- and therefore had left little impression to the timeline after 2016.

 

 

About the episode: it was good for the most part, everyone were good.. except the Hawks- i'm just not feeling them. there were a few cheesy and awful lines but the majority of it was good.. also, I guess Gideon is portrayed by a different actress- since you know she has an accent? does this mean Gideon, like Siri, can change her accent depending on where the program owner lives? or is this just a timeline thing and in the future she speaks once again in American accent like she did for thawne?

[kathyk24]

I liked it except for Hawkgirl, I loved Hawkgirl on Justice League where she was a badass. The writers need to consult with Bruce Timm to write her properly. As a bonus he also has written episodes featuring Vandal Savage as well.

[jhlipton]

Pretty fun and as long as they keep showing Ciara Renee in tight shirts and in profile, I'll keep watching.
 

Also who is Amy Pemberton? She was listed in the credits.

She's the voice of Gideon. ("The Voice of Gideon" is my next band!)
 
 

It was a decent pilot if you've watched Arrow/Flash.  Somewhat of a confusing one if you haven't.

I don't watch either (or Dr Who for that matter). It took me a minute to figure everyone out, since their backstory was minimal, but that's fine.
 
 

What I don't grasp, is how a Time Master (?) could grab up eight people in 2016, and tell them that they were going to travel back and forwards in time, fighting evil... and nobody spoke the word Tardis?

 
 Maybe Dr Who doesn't exist in this timeline/universe, Yay!

[transgojobot]

It was delightful and a bit messy. Not unexpected, considering it's a pilot episode. I found many parts of it fun. Most of the fun as a result of Wentworth Miller and Dominic Purcell enjoying the scenery like a fine dining experience.

 

Also, special shout-out to Peter Francis James' engaging delivery of all that clunky exposition as Dr. Boardman. A good strong baritone always helps. 

 

Lastly, Caspar Crump is just as horrible here as he was in those Flash/Arrow episodes. I'm sure the man is a decent actor, but he's just not Vandal Savage. Not at all. The man does not come across as menacing or dangerous. Am I really suppose to believe this guy ruled the world? 

[Lokiberry]

I liked it except for Hawkgirl, I loved Hawkgirl on Justice League where she was a badass. The writers need to consult with Bruce Timm to write her properly. As a bonus he also has written episodes featuring Vandal Savage as well.

Bringing in Bruce Timm would improve the Flarrowverse 394,000%.

[InsertWordHere]

Maybe Dr Who doesn't exist in this timeline/universe, Yay!

The trouble is, on Arrow, when speaking about Ray, a character once mentioned that he had seen every episode of Doctor Who (which is actually close to impossible).

 

Maybe Doctor Who in this universe is a show about an actual doctor and not a time traveling alien. Scary. 

[Jediknight]

I had to ponder this as well.  Decided either it was a case of single dollar bills really haven't changed in appearance and the bartender just grabbed them and tossed them in the cash resister without noticing the dates or maybe Rip had a stash of appropriately dated cash just hanging around.  Or the even more likely option, they robbed someone and used their cash.  I mean, they stole a car and started a bar fight.  Yeah, they probably just swiped someone's wallet.

They didn't start the bar fight.  The big guy grabbed Sara and said "Maybe you didn't understand my request bitch", it was a pretty obvious threat and Sara responded.

[diebartdie]

 

I thought the Stein kidnapping of Jax was disgusting, did no-one see a problem with it being the black guy being kidnapped by a white guy and ripped from his home against his will, and forced into this? Because it was really what the white guy wanted. The fact he changed his mind in the end is irrelevant.

 

Hackman basically beating Hawkgirl into going was a bit dubious too.

I wonder if they're going to address the idea that a goodly portion of "the past" really sucks donkey balls for people who looks like Kendra and Jax.  If it turns out that the team has to get some doodad out of a plantation house in 1850s Alabama, that's not going to be awesome for them.  Unless Jax as Firestorm nukes the house Django style.

These two items. I was really pissed off that the old white guy drugged, kidnapped and basically forced into working with him the young black guy. That was some bullshit right there. THEN Hawkgirl (why cant she be hawkwoman?) and Hawkman (why does he get to have the adult name?), people that to my eye at least look like a mixed race couple apparently went to NORTH CAROLINA during Jim Crow era with their child and lived until they were murdered by Vandal Savage. Im sorry but down here during Jim Crow Vandal Savage would have had to take a number to murder them, the KKK would have done it first. Ugly but true. Im getting really sick of this distorted, fucked up myopia regarding how race works in America. As Frank Zappa said, "I'm not black but there's a lot of times I wish I could say Im not white". Also, I loathe Hawkdude, loathe how he treats Hawkwoman, loathe the idiotic look on his face, loathe his line readings......but I really love his hawk outfit. He sucks and I want him to die asap. Hawklady should stay, there are not enough women on this show. Finally, Ive always loved Sara Lance, always loved that she is portrayed as a bisexual person who isnt ashamed of that, always loved how messed up her story is but she keeps trying to make the best of it, she's a great character. Ive always suspected Captain Cold to be gay so to me, I dont see any sexy chemistry between Cold and Canary but if Im wrong and they do end up making the sex....well at least they're pretty!

[cambridgeguy]

 

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how nanites that dissolved a blood clot would be helpful with a spinal cord injury.

The nanites might not be useful but Ray Palmer, the scientific genius who invented the Atom suit and all sorts of other things, would be incredibly useful.  At the very least he could design a hover chair.  Oliver seemed way too chipper for this to be after the shooting though. 

[LisaM]

I liked it a lot - with the exception of the Hawks, who I didn't like when they were on Arrow/Flash earlier either.

 

Just the right amount of snark. Particularly like Professor Stein (except for the drugging), Atom and Cold/Heat. So glad that the real Canary is back. I never saw Doctor Who but I know Arthur Darvill from Broadchurch. Nice to see him again.

 

Liked the Cisco references too.

[tessaray]

After waiting so long for the show, I ended up having to wait until last night before watching.  :-)  

 

My reaction was typical, it seems.  Some of it I loved, some of it I chalked up to being a pilot and then there are the Hawks.  I can't wait for him to be gone. I would hate to get rid of her, because the cast is so lopsided but unless they start pairing her up with better actors, she can go too.  (And I liked Kendra on The Flash.) 

Edited January 24, 2016 by tessaray

[KirkB]

I watched the episode again, and I have to wonder if Rip is reconsidering his team choices. He needs the Hawks (bland as the actors may be) because one of them has to kill Savage or else he'll just come back. But he had Atom, Firestorm, Cold and Heat and Sara, plus himself and the Hawks all fighting together, albeit for the first time but still, and they couldn't even take down Cronos. And Savage is supposed to be much worse. Right now at least, Heat and Cold are the only ones who have a semblance of any actual teamwork.

[savinggrace]

This show has potential but I think they need to trim some fat. I could do without the Hawks since I find them cheesy. Plus the actors playing the Hawks are horrible and her teeth and his face are distracting. I hope they have Savage kill them off quickly. They can be resurrected periodically if needed -- but I hope they aren't.

A core group of Firestorm, Snart, Heatwave and the Canary would be just fine.

I did find myself wishing Hunter was played by Tom Mison from Sleepy Hollow.

[johntfs]

I watched the episode again, and I have to wonder if Rip is reconsidering his team choices. He needs the Hawks (bland as the actors may be) because one of them has to kill Savage or else he'll just come back. But he had Atom, Firestorm, Cold and Heat and Sara, plus himself and the Hawks all fighting together, albeit for the first time but still, and they couldn't even take down Cronos. And Savage is supposed to be much worse. Right now at least, Heat and Cold are the only ones who have a semblance of any actual teamwork.

 

One problem I see for the show is that there's just too damn many regular characters.  Counting "Gideon" there's ten beings on the Waverider alone.  Then there whatever guest stars including who/what eight super-people have to fight in any episode.  If it where me, I'd cut Jax, Hawkman and Professor Stein from the show.  I know everyone loves "Spy-Daddy" but collectively Firestorm has the weakest motivation to remain ("I like a footballish team."  "I want to time travel some.").  Meanwhile Victor Garber is expensive and so are Firestorm's special effects.  Meanwhile, Hawkman's line reading are just dire and the character overshadows Kendra and keeps her from coming into her own.  I want to see Kendra develop more as the priestess instead of "the other winged person who hits things."

[Sakura12]

I could do without both Hawks, providing they introduce another woman to the show. I guess we can see how Vixen does, but I wasn't impressed with that actress in other things I've seen her in. 

 

Still crossing my fingers for Zatanna and Lady Blackhawk. I also think they would be cheaper effect wise as well.

[jmonique]

Was I the only one distracted by Sarah's hair? She also looked like she was sucking on a lemon for most of the episode.

 

I did find it weird that Rip would round up a house party full of people, then bench half of them to go chat with a professor. He really needed a squad for that?

[nksarmi]

I could do without both Hawks, providing they introduce another woman to the show. I guess we can see how Vixen does, but I wasn't impressed with that actress in other things I've seen her in. 

 

Still crossing my fingers for Zatanna and Lady Blackhawk. I also think they would be cheaper effect wise as well.

 

I still think Rip's reference to "one of them" must deliver the death blow means we will lose Hawkman at some point.  I suspect Hawkgirl will get more interesting when that happens. But I would love, love, love Lady Blackhawk or Zatanna if they get a second season.

[Sakura12]

How can they not have Lady Blackhawk. Going to World War II is a must for any time travel shows. They can be the ones to bring her into modern times. 

[CletusMusashi]

1. Since it can not possibly be said enough times, Rip is totally a poor man's Doctor Who.

And not in the good way, like Inspector Spacetime was.

 

2. Why are all of these heroes so easy to shoot with knockout guns? How do they know the gun doesn't shoot hawktomite? Or anti-atomium? Or just... really good bullets or rays utilizing alien/alternate/futuristic technology?

If Rip has the superpower to tell people: "I'm not here to kill you," and then shoot them, why not use that mojo on the bad guys?

 

3. Doesn't the distant future somehow have technology that allows you to show holograms to a group of people... without also giving a lightshow to any Muggle or bountyhunter who happens to be outside at the moment? Or looking out a window? 

 

4. So Hawkman settles his girl disagreeing with him by saying she can do what she wants... if she wins the fight. And then she does things his way, after he wins the fight. Yeah, that's a nice message. But, see, it's okay, because ultimately she decided he was right. After he made her try it his way. Apparently by beating the shit out of her. To establish that her way was wrong. God forbid they just spent that off-camera time talking, and then explained what convinced her. Nope. Just get her off-camera, and start punching. Wrong superhero name, Cockman.

 

5. So did "Arrow" actually finally turn into a real superhero show? I watched... most of Season 1, might even have finished it, but it was often so dull that I'm not actually sure, and it seemed determined to name-drop as many DC characters as possible, while making all of its villains as flatly un-comic'y as possible, while taking great pains to insure that the main story arc moved at an abysmally glacial pace. But this show made it look like it's actually fun nowadays. If so, I approve.

 

6. Vandal Savage sucks. The Renaissance didn't arise from the Dark Ages. There are over half a dozen CENTURIES between those time periods! I could just say "writers are dumb," but I prefer to say "Savage is an egomaniac who has interpreted everything in history through his own sense of how he thinks the world works." Either that, or "He knows how little understanding of history the average man has, so he doesn't even bother trying to do plausible lies any more, because on the rare occasion that they raise an eyebrow he'll just kill them." Time will tell which interpretation I go with, if either. But I like having personal peeves to hate him for. Because "Hard to kill, wants to rule the world, has lots of power," just isn't that interesting to watch. What are we, chopped liver? Would it kill ya to put on a funny costume?

 

7. I'm surprised by the number of posts from people going into the this series relatively cold and honestly liking it. To me, it felt like a spinoff from a show I've never seen had a baby with a show that I lost interest in years ago. Hopefully it will find its own schtick, and focus on guest characters that I am not supposed to know as well from the others. I like the idea of liking it, but I'm not hooked yet, and if next week is the same I'll probably see a shiny object somewhere and wander off.

 

8. Enjoyed the bar fight as much as everybody else. Come on, what's not to love?

 

9. Really wish I didn't feel like once a numbered list of points gets past four it has to reach ten.

 

10. So it won't.  But overall, I fell like this was, for me, not as accessible a pilot as it could have been. And I understand perfectly well why they don't want to rehash character points that many if not most viewers have already spent time learning. But that doesn't change the fact that the "Oh, it's a spinoff! They already know who Angel and Mork and Weezie are!" loophole is getting a little bit stretched with modern comic shows.

[Athena5217]

Was I the only one distracted by Sarah's hair? She also looked like she was sucking on a lemon for most of the episode.

I did not like the slicked back hair look, but I'd take Sarah with bad hair over Laurel with good hair any day. I think the lemon sucking face was a result of her realizing she would be stuck on a ship with Hawkman.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Athena5217

[johntfs]

6. Vandal Savage sucks. The Renaissance didn't arise from the Dark Ages. There are over half a dozen CENTURIES between those time periods! I could just say "writers are dumb," but I prefer to say "Savage is an egomaniac who has interpreted everything in history through his own sense of how he thinks the world works." Either that, or "He knows how little understanding of history the average man has, so he doesn't even bother trying to do plausible lies any more, because on the rare occasion that they raise an eyebrow he'll just kill them." Time will tell which interpretation I go with, if either. But I like having personal peeves to hate him for. Because "Hard to kill, wants to rule the world, has lots of power," just isn't that interesting to watch. What are we, chopped liver? Would it kill ya to put on a funny costume?

 

 

I like what I've seen of Vandal Savage so far except for the name.  Vandal Savage is a silly-ass name for what this guy is and does.  He's a very long-experienced person who has adopted the philosophy that conflict makes humanity as a whole stronger to justify what he was going to do anyway.  Plus, if he's done right, Vandal Savage could take "long term planning" to a whole different level.  When the team goes after him early in his life, he could set up "temporal booby traps" for them across human history.  Maybe we learn that Vandal Savage introduced slavery into American culture as a way to screw with the Hawks and give Jax a hard time.

Like:

 

Cold: Why are we being chased by the Spanish Inquisition?

Rip: Because Savage overheard your partner mention we were going to Madrid.

Cold: So he told the Inquisition to hunt for us?

Rip: No, he started the Inquisition to hunt for us!

Edited January 24, 2016 by johntfs

[CletusMusashi]

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

Edited January 25, 2016 by CletusMusashi

[diebartdie]

No but I was expecting cheese and thankfully, I got some!

[jhlipton]

1. I was really pissed off that the old white guy drugged, kidnapped and basically forced into working with him the young black guy. That was some bullshit right there.

 

2. THEN Hawkgirl (why cant she be hawkwoman?) and Hawkman (why does he get to have the adult name?), people that to my eye at least look like a mixed race couple apparently went to NORTH CAROLINA during Jim Crow era with their child and lived until they were murdered by Vandal Savage. Im sorry but down here during Jim Crow Vandal Savage would have had to take a number to murder them, the KKK would have done it first. Ugly but true. 

 

Per MarkHB: "Having said that, discussions as to how she, or any other cast member, identifies and whether that counts as diverse are off-limits, incredibly offensive and will be deleted", so I'm not sure how much we can talk about Hawkgirl (hereafter HG) and Jax but...

 

1. That was definitely messed up.  Jax is just a lackey of Stein.  And Hawkgirl comes because Hawkman beats her into it.  There's something that separates these two from the rest of the cast.  If only I could put my finger on it...

 

2. I don't know about North Carolina, but Loving vs Virginia was won in 1967 and they weren't killed.  I think that if they had lived in one of the more progressive (larger and younger population), they might have gotten death threats, but the KKK would leave them alone.  I didn't live in the area at the time, so I can't be sure, though.

 

4. So Hawkman settles his girl disagreeing with him by saying she can do what she wants... if she wins the fight. And then she does things his way, after he wins the fight. Yeah, that's a nice message. But, see, it's okay, because ultimately she decided he was right. After he made her try it his way. Apparently by beating the shit out of her. To establish that her way was wrong. God forbid they just spent that off-camera time talking, and then explained what convinced her. Nope. Just get her off-camera, and start punching. Wrong superhero name, Cockman.

 

6. Vandal Savage sucks. The Renaissance didn't arise from the Dark Ages. There are over half a dozen CENTURIES between those time periods! 

 

7. I'm surprised by the number of posts from people going into the this series relatively cold and honestly liking it. To me, it felt like a spinoff from a show I've never seen had a baby with a show that I lost interest in years ago. 

 

10. But that doesn't change the fact that the "Oh, it's a spinoff! They already know who Angel and Mork and Weezie are!" loophole is getting a little bit stretched with modern comic shows.

 

4. Covered above.  We got a nice view when HG took off her coat, but I think it would have been better if HG had a good reason for agreeing.  (Funny how they had a "fight" but neither showed any sign of it.   He gets to hit her, but even TPTB are aware of what it will look like if she shows up with bruises.

 

6. The Renaissance immediately following the Middle Ages is a pretty common mistake, not one limited to this show.  So I don't have a problem with that.  It would have been nice if there was a hint that Harry Lime was an acolyte of Savage as both believe that conflict leads to progress: "n Italy, for thirty years under the Borgias, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace – and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock." 

 

7. Nice description.  I was able to take it on it's own merit, in that I could appreciate the characters for who they were, without the backstory from Arrow and Flash. 

 

10.  Not just comic shows, but this has been going in comic books for quite some time. You'll be reading along in 'Lectric Blanky Boy and EBB will say something.  There will be a note from the editor to see The Adventures of Captain Toast, Issue 127.  It's gotten much worse, with a single story being told across multiple titles, so you have to pick up all of them to follow the plot.

[tarotx]

Yeah I think Vandal will be an ok villain. I too am thinking of him more as this cheesy pest who throughout time is persuading influential people that violence is the way to go. It would be an interesting twist if our time is the one that really pushes him to make big evil things happen. 

[Ltg.jon]

The name drop of Per Degaton made me wish he was the main villain. It just seems odd to have a group of time travelers fighting a guy who's going through time in a purely linear way. Like, a lot of the times they meet Savage, it'll be the first time he's met them, from his point of view. Unless a future version of Savage steals a time machine and starts chasing them.

[scarynikki12]

Discussing racial implications of Stein drugging Jax, how Kendra came to be on the team, and whether or not the Hawks hiding in North Carolina during the Jim Crow era was smart are allowed.  We just ask that you not go off topic.  If you find yourself posting about this topic more than the episode/spoilers/media/etc., then you need to give your fellow posters a head's up and go here, the Race and Ethnicity thread at the Everything Else TV forum, which covers all shows and is better suited for the more in depth discussions.  The same is true if you find yourself posting about any topic that isn't specifically about the thread you are currently in.

 

Also, please remember to read the Mod Notes when we post them.  They're meant to provide information that we feel you need to know in general.  The relevant one is here and, as you can see, doesn't say that we object to race discussions but that we object to discussions on how the actors self-identify.  That wades into personal attacks territory and we're not going to allow that.  If you feel that you need clarification, or have follow up questions, please send either of us a PM.

[jhlipton]

Thanks for the clarification!

[terxav]

It will be interesting seeing how long it will take for this group to become a team. <br /><br />I really wished they had done the firestorm joining the team as a decision made by Dr. Stein & Jax. I wonder if Jax will call Stein out in the fact that Jax agreeing to be firestorm is what keeps Stein alive. What if Jax has a reason to stay in his current time, girlfriend, family or a desire to live in his hometown? <br /><br />Including Jax in the field trips would have gone a long way in giving him a reason to stay vs. I feel like part of a team .<br /><br />However what I am confused about most is what are the hawk's powers / abilities - in the episodes on Arrow and thr Flash I never gained an understanding of what these two could do besides sprout wings.

[johntfs]

It will be interesting seeing how long it will take for this group to become a team. <br /><br />I really wished they had done the firestorm joining the team as a decision made by Dr. Stein & Jax. I wonder if Jax will call Stein out in the fact that Jax agreeing to be firestorm is what keeps Stein alive. What if Jax has a reason to stay in his current time, girlfriend, family or a desire to live in his hometown? <br /><br />Including Jax in the field trips would have gone a long way in giving him a reason to stay vs. I feel like part of a team .<br /><br />However what I am confused about most is what are the hawk's powers / abilities - in the episodes on Arrow and thr Flash I never gained an understanding of what these two could do besides sprout wings.

 

So far they've mostly shown two main "abilities."  They can sprout wings to fly and they have at least some memories of their past lives, Hawkboy remembers more than Hawkwoman.  Figure that they're both probably stronger than they look when they "manifest."  I suspect that we'll see them do stuff like grab somebody, fly up fairly high and the drop his ass.