S06.E02: Season 6, Episode 2

[rur]

Perhaps they can resolve it by marrying at DA (and avoiding the issue of "which church") and then having a reception in town. 

[RedHawk]

My guess is that Cora and Mrs. Hughes are supposed to be in their mid to late 50s while Carson is in his early 60s.

[beeble]

I want Shonda Rhimes to come in a guest-write just one episode of this show so something will actually happen.

---------------------

Oh, God! Imagine the speeches! That could be a fun project for some writer/producer to pitch to Buzzfeed or Upworthy or something.

(I realize the OP is probably not reading at this point.)

 

She'd kill everyone! But at least Thomas might get laid again. Poor guy is too hot to go without as long as he has.

Edited January 14, 2016 by beeble

[blackwing]

Good point.

Speaking of, where are they getting married?

I ask because statistically speaking, Carson is most likely a member of the Church of England and Mrs. Hughes is most likely a Presbyterian.

Sorry, can you elaborate? Are you just going by last names? "Carson" = English name = Church of England and "Hughes" = Protestant Irish? Are most of them Presbyterian?

For that matter, is "Branson" an Irish name? Is he Catholic? For some reason I seem to think this was one of his conflicts with the family but maybe I am making it up.

[Kohola3]

Mrs. Hughes is from Scotland which is where the Presbyterian faith began.

 

And Branson is indeed a Catholic.  Conflict arose around having Sybbie baptized a Catholic.  Luckily Sybil had made Mary promise that Sybbie would be raised Catholic before she died.

[Dejana]

Perhaps they can resolve it by marrying at DA (and avoiding the issue of "which church") and then having a reception in town. 

 

You couldn't just get married anywhere you wanted in England back in 1925, or for many, many years later, in fact:

 

The Marriage Act 1994 (c. 34) is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom. Introduced as a private member's bill by Gyles Brandreth, it amended the Marriage Act 1949 to allow marriages to be solemnized in certain "approved premises". Prior to the act, marriage ceremonies could only be conducted in churches and register offices.

 

 

 

She'd kill everyone! But at least Thomas might get laid again. Poor guy is too hot to go without as long as he as.

 

Again? Wasn't the last time Thomas was shown kissing someone who reciprocated back in 1912? I do like the actor but very little in the story justifies Thomas sticking around Downton the last five years or so.

Edited January 14, 2016 by Dejana

[beeble]

 

Again? Wasn't the last time Thomas was shown kissing someone who reciprocated back in 1912?

 

By "again" I meant that he's no virgin, but yes, it was way back in 1912 that he had any fun at all.

Edited January 14, 2016 by beeble

[caligirl50]

It's so interesting to read all these posts.  I think some folks need to go back and re-watch some of the episodes you are referring to. There is a lot of editorializing as to what actually happened.  Someone wrote that there are many conversations between characters that are either not on camera or only part of the conversation is shown. I think there are assumptions being made that we don't really know for sure what was said or what the character was thinking.  But it's a great read!

[ZoloftBlob]

Sorry, can you elaborate? Are you just going by last names? "Carson" = English name = Church of England and "Hughes" = Protestant Irish? Are most of them Presbyterian?

 

Carson tends to be whatever the Crawleys are and the Crawleys are Church of England. To be fair, Carson has never stated his religion but it's a good assumption.

 

Hughes has always seemed more faintly Scottish than Irish and the Scots tend to be Presbyterian. Again its clearly a guess as Hughes has never stated a religion but it's really not a bad guess considering what little we know.

 

Branson, despite his not entirely stereotypical name, was clearly meant as a broad Irish stereotype and that means he's a roman catholic.

[Mrsjumbo]

I must have missed it, but who is interested in Edith?

Was it the end of season 5 that they were shooting birds & Edith was with a guy that might have been a real estate agent? And later they danced at the house?

See I should tape & rewatch these episodes.

[Llywela]

Hughes has always seemed more faintly Scottish than Irish and the Scots tend to be Presbyterian. Again its clearly a guess as Hughes has never stated a religion but it's really not a bad guess considering what little we know.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'seems more faintly Scottish than Irish'. She is Scottish. Not Irish at all.

[wineaux]

It's so interesting to read all these posts.  I think some folks need to go back and re-watch some of the episodes you are referring to. There is a lot of editorializing as to what actually happened.  Someone wrote that there are many conversations between characters that are either not on camera or only part of the conversation is shown. I think there are assumptions being made that we don't really know for sure what was said or what the character was thinking.  But it's a great read!

 

LOL!  True that.  :-)   I think that it's just so easy to get wrapped up in the characters and the stories (they feel so real!), and then some completely forget that ALL of the characters, stories, dialogues, etc come from one man's head....Julian Fellowes (with the help of a couple of playwrights).  Bravo to them all!  My favorite is when someone asks "why doesn't (fill in name) do such-and-such?"  Um, because Julian didn't write it like that.  :-D   :-D   It's all good, though.  And amusing.  Truth be told, I even have to catch myself sometimes. 

[jrlr]

Was it the end of season 5 that they were shooting birds & Edith was with a guy that might have been a real estate agent? And later they danced at the house?

See I should tape & rewatch these episodes.

Ah, a very faint memory of that - thank you.  Obviously, I should rewatch them too!  

[Roseanna]

And this doesn't have anything to do with why she's not a kidnapper, but I don't think Mrs. Drewe took Marigold with the intention of not returning her. She took her to her home, which she had to have known was the first place people would look, and as soon as Mr. Drewe showed up, she handed her over. I think she was just infuriated that Edith, who purportedly loves Marigold so much, was paying so little attention that anyone could have walked off with her. And I think Edith is a garbage bag, but I don't fault her for that; a parent can't stare at her child every second of the day like a psycho. Nevertheless, Mrs. Drewe was right that no one was paying attention to Marigold for at least long enough for Mrs. Drewe to walk away with her, put her in the car, and drive away.

 

That Mrs Drewe said so, and probably believed it, doesn't make it true.

 

We saw earlier that that Marigold was in Edith's lap but we didn't see the disappearing scene. We don't even know if Marigold was wandering around or if she was just standing near the Crawleys. The family had no special reason to worry for knew that they were among the people they know and could trust. Quite soon somebody who would have seen the wandering Marigold would have fetched her and brought her to them - if Mrs Drewe had acted first. In irl there would have witnesses but this was a show.   

 

She was talking complete nonsense to defend her act instead of admitting she did wrong.

Was it the end of season 5 that they were shooting birds & Edith was with a guy that might have been a real estate agent? And later they danced at the house?

 

 

Yes, in CS. Mary had also a new admirer.  

[Andorra]

Mrs Hughes is Scottish and not Catholic, because otherwise we would have heard so when they discussed the Catholics at the servant's dinner table back in season 3. Carson said disapprovingly that the Catholics were very "unenglish"  and Alfred said he was happy that he was COE. IMO Mrs Hughes probably is COE, too. 

[SusanSunflower]

Calling what happened with Marigold and Mrs. Drew kidnapping is a serious exaggeration. She took the (bored, "neglected") child home and relinquished her immediately when demanded. She should have told someone or gotten permission. She was deeply inconsiderate but probably not in her "right mind." Knowing her mental state wrt Marigold and the fact that she was obviously present at the livestock show, I'd look in askance at both Edith and Mr. Drewe for not keeping an eye on both. There was no apparent malice in her taking Marigold home for a nap and a snuggle which was done - afaict - openly. Delusional? possibly. I didn't "get" grief stricken, in fact, the whole thing seemed inexplicable and doubtful. Any sane person would anticipate bad and serious consequences, at least an ugly row. Could/should have been more explicitly written -- say, found with the child on the road to London after running out of gas ... or found at the train station, dithering, without the needed fare ... If the idea, alternatively, was that Mrs. Drewe was demonstrating to Edith what a bad mother she was in punishing fashion (I'll show you what can happen when you leave your child unattended) it failed. Mrs. Drewe's mental state uncertain. Cartoonish.

Edited January 14, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Andorra]

I think Mrs Drewe simply is in a deep depression,which is pretty normal after losing a child. No matter how many children you have, losing one (and that's what it feels like for Mrs Drewe) is the hardest thing in the world. No wonder the poor woman is depressed. 

 

She is not nuts nor vicious. And Edith is responsible for pushing the poor woman where she is now. Edith didn't do it intentionally, nor did her husband, but those are the two people who brought her into this and used her badly.

 

What I demand from Edith is simply compassion and thinking about the consequences of her own behavior. No one asks her to give Marigold back to Mrs Drewe, but just ignoring the woman's pain is selfish, cold and heartless. 

[SusanSunflower]

yes, and Edith is failing to accept the reality that Mrs. Drewe is, in fact, not okay with the current situation and is not reliably going to help Edith keep her secret ... Edith is still more worried about Mary finding out the truth (and losing face with Mary) than with protecting Marigold ...

Arrive at the livestock show, see Mrs. Drewe, turn around and LEAVE ... avoid a scene and most importantly avoid Marigold being placed in the middle ... it's not good custodial behavior ... kids aren't beanbags to be tossed about.

Oh, and yes, the child Marigold is wan and strangely apathetic. I'm glad this is the last season so that we won't have to watch Edith fail to cope with Marigold's apparent developmental delays and emotional problems -- What, oh what will Mary think? How Mary will gloat.

[ZoloftBlob]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'seems more faintly Scottish than Irish'. She is Scottish. Not Irish at all.

 

I was alluding to her accent which instead of being a heavy Scots brogue, is a more muted and softened Scot accent, I agree, she's not Irish and her accent in particular is the giveaway. Whereas Allen Leech has an Irish accent but again, doesn't seem to be emphasizing it. Its actually something I like about both shows, that the different accents sound natural and not forced.

[Misstify]

I think the show cast a very docile child as Marigold because they didn't want to give her any lines or spend time wrangling an active child on set. I actually found myself wondering if they had dosed her with Benadryl before the Mrs. Drewe scene.

[ShadowFacts]

 

And this doesn't have anything to do with why she's not a kidnapper, but I don't think Mrs. Drewe took Marigold with the intention of not returning her. She took her to her home, which she had to have known was the first place people would look, and as soon as Mr. Drewe showed up, she handed her over. I think she was just infuriated that Edith, who purportedly loves Marigold so much, was paying so little attention that anyone could have walked off with her. And I think Edith is a garbage bag, but I don't fault her for that; a parent can't stare at her child every second of the day like a psycho. Nevertheless, Mrs. Drewe was right that no one was paying attention to Marigold for at least long enough for Mrs. Drewe to walk away with her, put her in the car, and drive away. I think her motivation was partly that she wanted to have Marigold back for just a little while and partly that she wanted to rub Edith's face in it a bit, like, "oh you're a better mum than me? You don't even pay any attention to your child."

 

I agree, of course she knew she would be found right there and could not keep Marigold.  And even Lady Mary bought the cover story she was told.  So it could have just blown over as far as anyone else was concerned.  Margie did not anticipate they would be turned out of their farm, just as Tim never anticipated his kindness would blow up in his face.  The Drewes get the shaft, Marigold is a little pingpong ball who must feel some insecurity/confusion, and Edith gets what's "all for the best".  Except she can't live her life honestly, and Marigold has a big surprise in store some day in the future. 

[fishcakes]

That Mrs Drewe said so, and probably believed it, doesn't make it true.

 

The fact that no one noticed that Marigold was gone until after the fact is what makes it true.

[ZoloftBlob]

The fact that no one noticed that Marigold was gone until after the fact is what makes it true.

 

In fairness, if we judged every parent who momentarily loses track of a child as harshly, we'd all be calling CPS a lot more.

 

Margie did not anticipate they would be turned out of their farm,

 

Again, I am sympathetic to Margie but this is a class regimented society. Mess with the rich and power, and the rich and powerful bite back. Lord Grantham is generally a pretty nice guy but Marge snatched his grandchild. That, more than anything, is why I think she slipped a gear or two - Lord Grantham is not going to let that continue. If there was a genuine concern that Marigold was roaming the fair alone, its not as tho the Drewes don't know who she lives with now and the normal response to finding a wandering child you know is to take the child in hand and find their parents... not take her home with you. As unfair as it is, Margie just pushed the point to where Robert had to do something because instead of it just being awkward, now Robert has to worry that the second Marigold is alone or off the Abbey grounds that Margie is going to snatch the kid away.

 

Margie has pretty much lost this particular war and lost it long before this. Edith is the biological mother, she has a birth certificate, she has witnesses in the formof Rosamunde and Violet that she was pregnant. There's no doubt she bore the child. If Tim Drewe tells the truth, then he has to admit he knew that he was being paid by Edith to take the mystery child in. At the point of the child snatching, Margie knew who she was fighting - the family of local lords. While I allow she was probably suffering mentally, she didn't appear to have lost track of reality. This is a society where the squeeky wheel isn't oiled, it gets replaced.

[Roseanna]

Knowing her mental state wrt Marigold and the fact that she was obviously present at the livestock show, I'd look in askance at both Edith and Mr. Drewe for not keeping an eye on both.

 

I don't remember that Edith even noticed her. Mr Drewe did. He has asked her to come.

 

What I demand from Edith is simply compassion and thinking about the consequences of her own behavior. No one asks her to give Marigold back to Mrs Drewe, but just ignoring the woman's pain is selfish, cold and heartless. 

 

Your demand can only be fulfilled by a saint. It's easy to be nice when there are no conflicting interests. If they are, most people are selfish - if they aren't, they never get anything in the world. 

 

 

Margie did not anticipate they would be turned out of their farm,

 

Then he was very stupid, even if Mr Drewe hadn't told her his conversation with Robert. As we have seen with Mr Mason, the landlord had every right.

[fishcakes]

In fairness, if we judged every parent who momentarily loses track of a child as harshly, we'd all be calling CPS a lot more.

 

Yes, I agree and said earlier that I don't fault Edith for that. Children wander off all the time and it's no big deal. I was just responding to the OP who suggested that Mrs. Drewe wasn't telling the truth when she said no one was paying attention to Marigold. Obviously no one was; otherwise, Mrs. Drewe wouldn't have been able to leave with her.

[TheGreenKnight]

I was so hoping sleepy little Marigold had actually been poisoned to death by Mrs Drewe, who would then pull out a carving knife and go after who ever tried to take Marigold from her (I know it was Mr Drewe but more fun if it was Edith). Now there's a plot development for us!

Tbh, I knew nothing was going to happen on Downton, but on a different show, I would've expected Mr. Drewe to find Mrs. Drewe rocking Marigold's corpse, chanting, "Nobody can take my little girl away now."  

 

And I have no qualms in saying Mrs. Drewe is crazy. Yes, it's an awful situation to be in (one that her husband largely caused) and I feel for her, but it's not like Edith took the only child she had. Mrs. Drewe didn't even have Marigold that long. Was it worth risking her entire family's security and well-being over a child that's ultimately with it's biological mother who loves her? No.

 

I don't see Robert as any kinder than the rest of the family irt the Drewes. I've always found the pained "I understand your pain" expression he makes when paying off or screwing over someone below him condescending.

[Andorra]

Your demand can only be fulfilled by a saint. It's easy to be nice when there are no conflicting interests. If they are, most people are selfish - if they aren't, they never get anything in the world. 

 

No, I don't think so. We see Mary, who according to so many viewers is cold and selfish, go to Carlisle and confess her own shame, just because her servant is unhappy for the loss of her beloved. Is Mary a Saint then? 

I don't think she is. I just think she's not a coward, not as selfish as Edith and, unlike her sister, takes responsibility for her actions.  

 but it's not like Edith took the only child she had. 

 

So you're basically saying if I lose my daughter today it's not that bad, because I have son, too? One child can replace the other?

 

I find such sentences very weird indeed. 

[TheGreenKnight]

A child that you've only had around a year, that you know isn't yours? Yes, I do think having a mental breakdown over that one child is very odd.

[Kohola3]

A child that you've only had around a year, that you know isn't yours? Yes, I do think having a mental breakdown over that one child is very odd.

 

Well call me odd but I fostered a dog for 4 months and almost went into mourning when she was adopted to her forever home.  I cried an ocean after spending two weeks taking care of a litter of puppies and had to see them adopted out.  I guess some of us bond in different ways.  No way in hell I wouldn't flip out after having a foundling in my life for a year and then having it wrenched away.

[Roseanna]

I did some resercah in Wikipedia about the event's timetable:

- S4 Ep4: April 1922 - Edith becomes pregnant before Gregson leaves for Germany
​- S4 Ep7: July 1922 - Edith decides to have an abortion but changes her opinion in the last minut

- S4 Ep8: August 1922 - Rosamund decides to go to Switzerland
​(January 1923 - Edith is delivered a baby girl and breastfeeds her some time before giving her to a Swiss couple)
- CS​4: summer 1924 - Edith and Mr Drewe make a deal about Marigold
​(November 1923 - Beer Hall Putsch - Gregson dies)

 

Unfortunately there are no months in the episodes of C5 , only a year 1924. We know that Edith visited Drewes farm many times and finally, after learning that Gregson had died, fetched Marugold.

 

CS 5 when Sinderbys invite Crawleys  to hunt happens in September 1925. So Edith probably fetched Marigold sometime in the summer. The child lived with Drewes around a year.

 

S6 Ep2 happens in April 1925, which means that Mrs Drewe has had around 9 months to cope with her loss but she hadn't.

 

I find it rather strange that Mrs Drewe has given sympathy to grieve so long for a child she fostered about one year, but Edith woudn't earlier have the same right although she had to bear at the same time the two-fold stress: first worrying about the fate of her child's father and then mourning for his death.

 

Only a saint would have had mental resources enough to care of other people's grief. In order to survive in circumstances like those one must be selfish. Otherwise your fate is decided by others, as in Edith's case Rosamund and Violet tried to do.

 

That doesn't mean that Edith didn't do wrong especially towards Marigold, removing her several times from home and caretaker. But one didn't know the child psychology at that time as we do now.

 

Also, the usual practice to give the baby for a foster home and have an agreement from the beginning that after a few years you would claim her as a ward when nobody didn't remember "a trip to Switzerland" would have been the best decision in the difficult circumstances. But then there would have no plot because there would be no conflict.

 

Somebody already said above that Violet and Rosamund had decided to send Marigold to a school abroad in order to avoid gossip. So there was never a possibility that Mrs Dreww could have kept Marigold, although she didn't know it herself. The options for Edith were only to lose Marigold - or to take her to herself. 

  

 

 

 

 

 

[Roseanna]

No, I don't think so. We see Mary, who according to so many viewers is cold and selfish, go to Carlisle and confess her own shame, just because her servant is unhappy for the loss of her beloved. Is Mary a Saint then? 

I don't think she is. I just think she's not a coward, not as selfish as Edith and, unlike her sister, takes responsibility for her actions.  

 

Mary didn't go to Carlisle only for Anna and Bates, but also - and at least as much - to protect herself from a public scandal. She revealed her "shame" to Carlisle to ask him to prevent it to be published - and he did just that by paying and silencing Mrs Bates.

 

As you see, there was no conflict between Mary's interests and those of Anna and Bates but their interests were the same. I am not saying that Mary wasn't brave but before of all she had intelligent enough to know that she had only one option - that she she would win Carlisle over. She never had to chose which was more important to her: her reputation or Anna.

 

As for Edith, Mrs Drewe is not her friend but a woman who, although she cared well for Marigold, refused her to meet her daughter and finally kidnapped her, i.e. an opponent and a danger.

 

Edith has shown courage and an ability to take responsibility of her actions. She bore an child outside a wedlock and she finally took that child to herself.

 

It's true that she has not shown empathy towards Mrs Drewe but it's due to her own twofold stressful time and a conflict of interests with Mrs Drewe.  During WW1 Edith showed disinterested empathy towards soldiers who were strangers to her.

[SusanSunflower]

I think Mrs. Drewe's prolonged "mourning" is unlikely and badly written. Marigold is alive and well-cared for. The reality is that Edith's "claim" trumps Mrs. Drewe's and, because of the class system, Edith would win any contest. There is a birth certificate. Edith is bio-mom.

Again, if Mrs. Drewe had been stalking Marigold -- for a glimpse, hug, peck on the cheek -- as we hear about often enough in child custody cases (and this was written to fit those stereotypes) -- we'd be worrying about her other children and her sanity in jeopardizing her husband's position/farm. But it wasn't credible because she wasn't "nutz" and she had not.a.chance.in.hell. of regaining custody of Marigold, ever. If Fellowes had let Margie SPEAK FOR HERSELF, we would doubtless better understand; for example, if she had decided to get her revenge on her husband, to revenge herself on Edith, by publicly ruining Edith's reputation by announcing to the village that she'd seen the birth certificate and Marigold was Edith's bastard child; if she had even decided to kidnap and then murder/suicide ... instead, we have mush... and mush that doesn't leave me terribly sympathetic to Madwoman Drewe ...

Edited January 14, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[guilfoyleatpp]

I have a half-formed idea. 

Instead of making this Edith vs. Mrs. Drewe, what if JF is trying to show us that they are both powerless and oppressed in different ways?

Mrs. Drewe is more obvious because of her economic standing and reliance upon Edith's family for her family's living.

 

But Edith is just as oppressed. Mary is representative of society at general who would be alternately disdainful and snarkily condescending of Edith and her illegitimate child. Marigold and Edith could find themselves barred from social events or certain schools (as PP mentioned). Edith values her way of life and her social standing. In that way she's very conventional.

 

I think that we've come so far in this arena that the judgement leveled against those who had "bastards" has been collectively forgotten. Growing up middle class in California in the 70's, you'd think that it wasn't a big deal.  But it sort of was. People whispered about it. 

 

Edith does not have the social standing or the wealth to force others to forget this transgression against convention, should it become public. The family is not placed high enough or wealthy enough to force others to socialize or be stigmatized themselves. There is ample evidence of this middling existence throughout the series - The Merton boy sneering at Tom Branson, the collective cooling off of invitations for Mary once the Parmuk rumor was circulated, the idea that other families' servants could get away with being rude to members of the family without real censure. 

So Edith is also acting out of limited choice. Not as limited as Mrs. Drewe, but Edith seems to rely heavily upon her identification with her family of origin. It's sort of a clinging, desperate, identification, but she values it highly. Her desire to remain within the cocoon of this family limits her options.

 

ETA:
Last night I had some season 5 eps running in the background. In them, Mrs. Drewe is shown as growing more irrational and territorial about Marigold. It could be in reaction to the desperate vibe that Edith seems to give off, but I feel like JF was setting up this mental break for a while. 

Edited January 14, 2016 by guilfoyleatpp

[ShadowFacts]

I think to not have rather grave emotional consequences over the loss of a child, birth or adopted, would be a signal of oddness to put it mildly.  A year is a long time to care for a child 24/7.  I am a mother and I cannot imagine the depth of pain this situation would cause.  I also have come to love in just a few months a very troublesome abused dog that we adopted.  In an evolutionary sense, that sort of bonding has to happen.  As to her thought process about taking Marigold home from the stock show, we are all speculating about the motivations of fictional characters, so one thought is as good as another.  Mine is that while she may have secretly wanted to be gone from the place where the painful memories are, she wouldn't have wanted to have her husband lose his family's heritage place, and have the family thrown into immediate economic insecurity.  But maybe she was just that far over the edge of frustration and powerlessness that she planned out a scenario that would get them thrown off.  I doubt it, I think she didn't think of that at all.  I am probably overthinking the whole thing, because it is mainly a plot device to get them out of the way and Mr. Mason in the tenancy.  Though he seems quite near retirement age, so maybe it is in Daisy's near future. 

[TheGreenKnight]

Well call me odd but I fostered a dog for 4 months and almost went into mourning when she was adopted to her forever home.  I cried an ocean after spending two weeks taking care of a litter of puppies and had to see them adopted out.  I guess some of us bond in different ways.  No way in hell I wouldn't flip out after having a foundling in my life for a year and then having it wrenched away.

I’m not saying her being sad or even depressed about this child she’s had for a year is weird. But going full-on crazy and kidnapping the child after the child has her biological parent back? Yes, I do think that’s odd. Especially since she’s risking the loss of contact with her other three children, which could have been a consequence of her actions. If Mr. Drewe’s friend had miraculously appeared (according to the story he gave her), would she have kidnapped the child from them when they took her back?

[Artymouse]

I have a half-formed idea. 

Instead of making this Edith vs. Mrs. Drewe, what if JF is trying to show us that they are both powerless and oppressed in different ways?

 

 

Interesting observation! It makes a lot of sense when you think about it. In a different social climate, Edith would not have felt compelled to go through all these machinations to keep a daughter born out of wedlock. And if she'd kept Marigold, Mrs. Drewe wouldn't have become attached to her. 

 

But there's plenty of blame to go around. Edith and Mr. Drewe made a big mistake by conspiring to make Marigold's parentage a secret from Mrs. Drewe. That doesn't excuse Mrs. Drewe from taking the child to her house when she knew everyone would be looking for her. And it definitely doesn't excuse Edith for being so insensitive to the Drewes' feelings and for snatching Marigold back from Mr. Drewe without so much as a thank you.

[LadyintheLoop]

The reality is that Edith's "claim" trumps Mrs. Drewe's and, because of the class system, Edith would win any contest. There is a birth certificate. Edith is bio-mom.

 

 

I'm not even sure how much the class system factors in. If Drewe really had brought home a friend's "orphaned" child, and if that child's unwed, working-class mother had shown up with a birth certificate, would that scene have played out any differently?

 

The mother-child bond trumped everything else. Even Charlie's grandparents needed Ethel's permission to take him, and she was a prostitute.

[jordanpond]

I'm Team Mary all the way! She can be witch at times, but if you are her friend, she will have your back no matter what. She is the Dowager Countess all over again. Sure she is highhanded, but she has stepped in to help the servants time and time again. When William's mother was dying, it was Mary who made sure he got to see her. When Carson got sick, Edith complained about the inconvenience while Mary went to visit him and made sure he was being cared for. When Sybil married Tom, Mary (and Matthew) befriended him. When Anna went to jail, Mary put her own reputation on the line to visit her. If I had to choose between working for Edith and working for Mary, I would choose Mary in a heartbeat. She rewards loyalty.

This episode again highlighted how much Mary cares. Mrs. Hughes may not be a fan of a wedding at the Abbey, but in all honesty, I think Mary knows Carson better than his bride-to-be does. The Abbey is his shrine. There is nowhere on earth that he would rather hold his reception. Mary's kindness meant the world to him. Of course, he and Mrs. Hughes must both like their reception site, but Mary's offer came from the heart. And Mary did not simply make an appointment for Anna or pay for her visit to the doctor. Instead, she went with her so that she would not have to face the news alone.

Although I think you make some nice points, one of the problems with the help that Mary gives to servants is that she picks a very specific type of solution, and insists that the person accept. Rather than ask the person if she/he wants help, Mary usually picks a specific solution, and insists that the person take the offer, even if the person has concerns. For example, Mary insisted that she was going to help Anna avoid seeing Mr. Green again by having a discussion with Tony. Anna didn't like the idea, and expressed some of her fears, but Mary insisted and that was that. Mary is not alone in this. When Mrs. Patmore was losing her vision, Robert came up with a solution (that I assumed would be handled at his expense and thus was quite generous.) Yet Mrs. Patmore was forced to accept the offer exactly as is, and Robert either didn't consider or didn't care that Mrs. Patmore was terrified of having surgery on her eyes, may have wanted a different traveling companion than the one he had chosen, etc. And again with Anna's fertility problem, not only was Anna not alliwed to change the terms of Mary's offer, I don't think declining the offer was considered an option.

So despite the fact that I believe Mary is motivated by kindness, these offers are essentially commands, even when they are potentially frightening or embarrassing or painful.

Edited January 14, 2016 by jordanpond

[seacliffsal]

Upon consideration, I do think Edith needs to stay away from the tenants and the farms as the whole thing with Marigold is not the only time that tenants have had to beware of Edith. In an earlier season Edith started driving a tractor and working with the tenants and tried to 'woo' a married farmer. Now with Marigold she gets Mr. Drew to take on Marigold but becomes too inconsiderate of the family (her visits which supercede whatever activity in which the family was involved). Now, a family is having to leave their tenancy due to a scenario that Edith created.

When the series first started I was on Edith's side, but as the series has progressed and especially with these two episodes of this season, I have realized that Edith creates a victimhood for herself that she seemingly does not want to end. In this episode, Rosalind really encourages Edith to move to London and to take control of her magazine (after the editor yelled at Edith, Rosalind said that they would return after lunch [to allow Edith to reassert herself with the editor] and Edith just stated that she would not return after lunch). It seems that Edith has no desire to improve her life and try to find happiness. She fell in love with a married man, got pregnant, had a baby, and ended up getting back her baby. Is she happy? No. She had a huge inheritance as a result of her relationship. Is she taking advantage of it and moving to London? No. It's unclear how she will ever be happy if she doesn't allow herself to be happy.

[SusanSunflower]

Well, rather than "drama" the main trend on Downton Abbey for the last seasons has been to make virtually every character we once cared about unlikeable ...

I'm very sympathetic to Edith, but she is becoming unlikeable (and her likability has never been overwhelming.) I liked her for her courtesy toward Strallan when he was Mary's discard and invited her to take a drive ... she even became conversational wrt agriculture ... I liked her willingness to learn to drive a tractor when that skill was needed and her willingness to work in the hospital, to reach out to fake-Patrick (and the blind gay soldier, what that her as well?) when it was rather clearly not her natural inclination to "get dirty." I liked her willingness to put herself and her name out there attached to her column and to investigate Gregson, meaning she learned he was married and to deal with that.

Deer in the headlights Edith -- unable to decide about moving to London, unable to cope with the editor or Mary or Mrs. Drewe -- is Edith not only backsliding, but regressing to a helpless Edith I don't think we have seen before. As with Mrs. Drewe, if only she could/would speak for herself.

Edited January 14, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[helenamonster]

I don't think anyone will ever switch from Team Mary or Team Edith.  Maybe Fellowes will have all of us loving or hating both of them with his writing by the time the series finale rolls around.  But I kind of doubt it!  

 

I have. For the first three or so seasons I loathed Mary and while she still doesn't crack the list of my favorite characters, I've come to appreciate and understand her more and have been able to retroactively evaluate my feelings for her. Meanwhile, Edith was my second favorite character after Anna, up until the S4 CS when she decided to take Marigold back from the Swiss family. Since then I feel she's been regressing at an alarming rate and she's basically trash to me now.

 

I must have missed it, but who is interested in Edith?

 

The land agent for Hogwarts...er, whatever the name of that castle was in this show where the Crawleys went up to go shooting with the Sinderbys in the S5 CS. I think his name was Bertie Pelham? Or am I pulling that out of my ass?

 

By "again" I meant that he's no virgin, but yes, it was way back in 1912 that he had any fun at all.

 

I think he might have been able to get some when he went to America with Robert in S4. When he came back, Molesley and Jimmy asked him how it was and I forget his response but it made me think his dry spell was over.

 

I did some resercah in Wikipedia about the event's timetable:

- S4 Ep4: April 1922 - Edith becomes pregnant before Gregson leaves for Germany

​- S4 Ep7: July 1922 - Edith decides to have an abortion but changes her opinion in the last minut

- S4 Ep8: August 1922 - Rosamund decides to go to Switzerland

​(January 1923 - Edith is delivered a baby girl and breastfeeds her some time before giving her to a Swiss couple)

- CS​4: summer 1924 - Edith and Mr Drewe make a deal about Marigold

​(November 1923 - Beer Hall Putsch - Gregson dies)

 

Unfortunately there are no months in the episodes of C5 , only a year 1924. We know that Edith visited Drewes farm many times and finally, after learning that Gregson had died, fetched Marugold.

 

CS 5 when Sinderbys invite Crawleys  to hunt happens in September 1925. So Edith probably fetched Marigold sometime in the summer. The child lived with Drewes around a year.

 

S6 Ep2 happens in April 1925, which means that Mrs Drewe has had around 9 months to cope with her loss but she hadn't.

 

I think some of these dates are wrong. Edith and Mr. Drewe's deal happened summer of 1923, while Rose's debut was happening. And the S5 CS took place from September to Christmas of 1924. We're in 1925 now.

 

I liked her willingness to learn to drive a tractor when that skill was needed and her willingness to work in the hospital, to reach out to fake-Patrick (and the blind gay soldier, what that her as well?)

 

No, that was Sybil with Thomas.

[TheGreenKnight]

Upon consideration, I do think Edith needs to stay away from the tenants and the farms as the whole thing with Marigold is not the only time that tenants have had to beware of Edith. In an earlier season Edith started driving a tractor and working with the tenants and tried to 'woo' a married farmer. Now with Marigold she gets Mr. Drew to take on Marigold but becomes too inconsiderate of the family (her visits which supercede whatever activity in which the family was involved). Now, a family is having to leave their tenancy due to a scenario that Edith created.

I have to disagree with this perspective. For one, Edith didn't woo the farmer she offered to drive the tractor for--he kissed her. And the Drewes aren't leaving the farm because of Edith, but because of Mrs. Drewe's own actions. If it was because of Edith, they would've been booted out of the story at the end of season 5.

 

About Edith not knowing what decision to make between moving to London and living at Downton, I think that the thing about growing up a "victim"--and I personally think she has been a victim to her upbringing and family--is that it's hard to break out of that mold once it's stamped into your head. I hope she'll be able to build up to moving away so she can finally become independent and separate herself from the "lesser, ugly sister" role that the Crawleys preordained for her.

[Roseanna]

I think some of these dates are wrong. Edith and Mr. Drewe's deal happened summer of 1923, while Rose's debut was happening. And the S5 CS took place from September to Christmas of 1924. We're in 1925 now.

 

Yes, sorry.

 

I think that most harmful to Marigold was that Edith, after breastfeeding her maybe 2-3 months, gave her first to a Swiss couple and then fetched he back after about 3-4 months. Marigold was then about 6 months when separation was most harmful. She couldn't have any memories about her biological mother although Edith had evidently strongly bonded with her daughter.

 

Marigold lived with Drewes about a year from (perhaps) 6 months to 1,5 years. Harmful though the separation from Mrs Drewe no doubt was to her, she at least knew Edith who had visited her constantly. All this was of course unknown to Edith.

 

Mrs Drewe's assumtion that Marigold who is now 2 years 3 months remembered her after nine months' separation was complete fantasy. She was a total stranger to the girl when she kidnapped her.

The land agent for Hogwarts...er, whatever the name of that castle was in this show where the Crawleys went up to go shooting with the Sinderbys in the S5 CS. I think his name was Bertie Pelham? Or am I pulling that out of my ass?

 

The estate is Brancaster and it is owned by the Marquis of Hexham. The land agent, Bertie Pelham whom we saw, is his third cousin.

[blackwing]

Edith has shown courage and an ability to take responsibility of her actions. She bore an child outside a wedlock and she finally took that child to herself.

 

It's true that she has not shown empathy towards Mrs Drewe but it's due to her own twofold stressful time and a conflict of interests with Mrs Drewe.  During WW1 Edith showed disinterested empathy towards soldiers who were strangers to her.

I don't think she's shown courage or responsibility at all.  Courage and responsibility would have been to have addressed the situation head-on as soon as it happened.  She could either have stood up to society, who cares what people think, etc.  Or she and her parents could have crafted a story that she and Gregson were married abroad.  There was no internet in the 1920s and it would have been a lot harder for any nosy busybody to uncover the truth.  And that's assuming anyone cared enough about Edith to even bother, and the way Edith has been portrayed, she has been this lifelong sad sack also-ran to her beautiful and glamourous sister.  Nobody cares about Edith.

 

Courage and responsibility would have been to tell her entire family the truth immediately.  Not to just tell her aunt and hide the truth from her parents and sister.  Then when she returned from abroad, and then says she has this child of a dead friend that she wants the pig farmer and his wife to take care of... I'm sorry, but that's not courage and responsibility to me.  She was just spinning more and more lies.  I don't find the act of taking her child back anything to applaud when she should have owned up to everything in the first place.

 

Of course one has a right to mourn for somebody one has loved and lost, but a grief can also become rather selfish if one forgets others one still has living. Mary's sorrow over Matthew was such and especially Robert even indulged it instead of saying sternly that she had a son and a duty towards him. 

Was there evidence that Mrs. Drewe was neglecting her other children?  If there was any mention of them not being fed and clothed or taken to school, I missed it.  Just because she loved Marigold and missed her doesn't necessarily mean she ignored her other children.

[iMonrey]

 

With Thomas, he just doesn't read signals from other guys well. I'm pretty sure he attempted to get close to Pamuk, & that led to Pamuk saying he was going to get him fired unless he got him in Mary's room. Then there is the misreading of Jimmy signals... So yes, I did think he was testing Andy out but Andy has made it clear he wants nothing to do with him. Yet Thomas keeps trying.

 

I can't decide if Thomas is just trying to prove himself useful or if he's maybe interested in Andy. Remember, he walked in on the tail end of the conversation between Robert and Carson, and overheard Robert say "Honestly who has an under-butler these days?" So he knows his job, in particular, is probably marked for elimination. He wanted to show Andy how to wind the clocks, because he wanted to prove he was still needed for something. And he volunteered to serve tea after the stock show and Carson shot him down and ordered Andy and Molesly to do it instead. He asked "When will I be needed then?" and Carson shot back "When, indeed?" So all this point to him just trying to make himself useful.

 

On the other hand, he also offered to show Andy around in the woods, which wouldn't do anything to bolster his necessity, and wanted to show Andy how to play that bowling pin game and the stock show and Andy shot him down both times, so that kind of makes it seem like he's after Andy, as Mrs. Patmore seemed to surmise. Maybe it's a bit of both, or maybe it's just a case of him trying to take Andy under his wing because we wants to feel that someone needs him.

[SusanSunflower]

I just watched this episode last night (I thought I had already seen it). Thomas was deliberately instigating opportunities for people to reject him. Andy is wary of Thomas' attentions, solicitous offers of help, so Thomas doubled-down. After rejecting Baxter's friendly conversation, concern, advice, he also doubled-down being ruder and ruder. I wasn't not entirely clear why Carson was quite publicly rejecting Thomas' offers of help as if his employment was superfluous, even a burden, hardly needed in the running of the house. Because Thomas had an interview for another position when Downton was downsizing and Thomas' chance of advancement was low?? No, I didn't understand it. Carson should be glad that Thomas is looking ahead, going for interviews and hopefully soon to depart Downton (liking Thomas has nothing to do with it) ... or I'm missing something. 

[kassa]

About Edith not knowing what decision to make between moving to London and living at Downton, I think that the thing about growing up a "victim"--and I personally think she has been a victim to her upbringing and family--is that it's hard to break out of that mold once it's stamped into your head.

 

 

I think you could make an argument that it's also generational.  Edith might have been as outwardly focused as Sybil had she been born a few years later.  Temperamentally she isn't as open as Sybil was, but intellectually she seems to be, and while she proceeds cautiously, she is interested in the outside world and thinks she has a place in it.  

 

While Mary may adopt the latest hair styles and clothes (and the occasional affair), in many ways she's very old school in her outlook.  She's interested in being current so as to be cool more than because she feels any drive to change The System.  So long as the Abbey is locked down for her and her child, she's pretty good with The System.  

 

Edith is more worldly, while still being held back by what was likely a very limited education and exposure to the greater world.  She's finding her way, though.  Sybil not only had the advantage of being the indulged baby of the family, but was born just later enough to come of age when differences between generations were becoming more dramatic than ever -- not just clothes and musical tastes, which have always distinguished one generation from the next --but adoption of household technologies and other new fangled things like cocktails and dance clubs and the suffrage movement, etc. Violet lived a life more similar to her grandmother and Robert like his own grandfather than any of the Crawley girls' lives will be to their own parents.

 

The only blueprint these girls have for living their lives is the one their class has imprinted on them from the day they were born -- only the Labor movement and the Great War pretty much blew that blueprint to smithereens, so they're all figuring it out as they go.  

 

Or she and her parents could have crafted a story that she and Gregson were married abroad.  There was no internet in the 1920s and it would have been a lot harder for any nosy busybody to uncover the truth.

 

 

Burke's Peerage was way worse than the Internet.  Her marriage status would have been noted and the groom investigated so his info could be put in there.  I don't think they would have missed the fact that he was already married.  The obvious solution would have been to go to America and have a sadly short marriage to a man who died tragically, then return home a year later with a kid whose birthdate she fudged by a couple of months. Unfortunately -- Burkes strikes again, even in America. 

 

Literally the only thing I could see working would have been to throw herself at Strallan and beg him to marry her because he had loved her once and he could now feel like she was not throwing her life away but rather that he was her knight in shining armor.

Edited January 15, 2016 by kassa

[SoSueMe]

I dislike Edith way too much for a fictional character. I really feel for the Drewes, all of them, including the kids who will be wrenched from their home, I assume.   

[Roseanna]

When the series first started I was on Edith's side, but as the series has progressed and especially with these two episodes of this season, I have realized that Edith creates a victimhood for herself that she seemingly does not want to end. In this episode, Rosalind really encourages Edith to move to London and to take control of her magazine (after the editor yelled at Edith, Rosalind said that they would return after lunch [to allow Edith to reassert herself with the editor] and Edith just stated that she would not return after lunch). It seems that Edith has no desire to improve her life and try to find happiness. She fell in love with a married man, got pregnant, had a baby, and ended up getting back her baby. Is she happy? No. She had a huge inheritance as a result of her relationship. Is she taking advantage of it and moving to London? No. It's unclear how she will ever be happy if she doesn't allow herself to be happy.

 

In CS Edith said she was happy a day after Robert had told her he knew about Marigold and they both asked other's forgiveness. 

 

I think you forget how the timetable and the way the story is told influence how we see the characters.

 

Mary was in complete mourning over Matthew’s after six months his death. She was unable to do anything, even be interested even in her son. But we were shown her excessive sorrow only in one episode where she finally “chose life” after several people had urged her to do it. Yet, even after 3,5 years, although she has work and power in Downton and could have remarried if she chose and  it is clear that she is not happy. She has completely lost softness she had with Matthew.

 

Instead, we were shown Edith’s story in many episodes. Then it’s easy to forget that she learned of Michael Gregson’s death only about nine months ago and only after this she inherited his magazine and flat. It’s not unreasonable to assume that she needed time to cope and couldn’t at once decide what to do with them.

 

As the new season is just begun, the audience was reminded by Rosamund that she has now options. The trouble with her editor showed that she has new duties in which she can either succeed or fail.

[sark1624]

 

While Mary may adopt the latest hair styles and clothes (and the occasional affair), in many ways she's very old school in her outlook.  She's interested in being current so as to be cool more than because she feels any drive to change The System.  So long as the Abbey is locked down for her and her child, she's pretty good with The System.  

 

Edith is more worldly, while still being held back by what was likely a very limited education and exposure to the greater world.  She's finding her way, though.  Sybil not only had the advantage of being the indulged baby of the family, but was born just later enough to come of age when differences between generations were becoming more dramatic than ever -- not just clothes and musical tastes, which have always distinguished one generation from the next --but adoption of household technologies and other new fangled things like cocktails and dance clubs and the suffrage movement, etc. Violet lived a life more similar to her grandmother and Robert like his own grandfather than any of the Crawley girls' lives will be to their own parents.

 

The only blueprint these girls have for living their lives is the one their class has imprinted on them from the day they were born -- only the Labor movement and the Great War pretty much blew that blueprint to smithereens, so they're all figuring it out as they go.  

 

Exactly, Mary is despicted as a "strong" woman, but she is strong only in Downton, with Carson and Anna flattering her 24/7, in a little rural and conservative village, where everybody know his place; we must remember her shock face when the police said to her: "i dont care if you are the queen of the upper nile"  after she said full of confidance "i am lady Mary Crawley" because nobody in Downton would talk to her in that way. Also its easy being strong when you know that you have all the family always flattering, and servants like Anna and Carson. Edith in the other hand has endured more a lot of shit without many help from others, she refused the abortion, she spend her pregnancy alone with her aunt in a another country, giver her baby, take back her daughter, keep working with the magazine, knew that the body of the man she loved was almost unrecognizable. So, in the end is ovbious that you are going to have a person who cannot think all her decisions rationally (the Drewes is the perfect example) and that looks sad, but if you didnt look sad after all that events i think that you are psyco.

 

Many fans find Mary strong, but where are her strongs points? doing snarky comments in a enviroment where anybody is going to tell her that such thing is rude? A new hair style? that is only a fashion thing, working the HER estate? that is her Obligation, also in the estate she works with people who also is not only her employees they also are people who for generations had been docile to the Crawleys and in the end is self preservation to wich she must be persuaded to do by Tom, Violet, Carson, Anna, her Mother, even Edith!. Edith went to London to work with people who dont have any connection with the Crawleys, the editor is rude to her, and in the end she tries to cope with that; even a few days later of knowing Gregson´s death, Mary spend 6 months moping around. With the blackmail attemp she was being strong but also insensitive to Gillingham and his wife, to his son, and Robert pointed that. 

 

And regarding the Drewe situation, the plan was bad designed and had bad results, but many asks that Edith could have been more sensitive in the moment she is reunited with Marigold (in the car scene), right, 5 minutes after you take back your daughter after a kidnapping your are going to go down and have tea with that person...she was almost in shock, in fack i think that when Robert when suggested that she should stay in the car was because he knew that Edith maybe could adopt ninja mode and torn to pieces Mrs Drewes for the scare she provoked in her. The only sensitible thing that Edith could do is ask for a private meeting with Mr Drewe apologize to him and to his family and give him a check to help him or tell  him that if he needs help he could contact her anytime. 

Edited January 14, 2016 by sark1624