S06.E02: Season 6, Episode 2

[Artymouse]

According to my mom, my grandmother, who got married around 1915, always called my grandfather Mr. Lastname. So maybe it was the era.

What was strange to me was Carson calling his fiancée Mrs. Hughes when they were alone, away from the house, and discussing the wedding. Maybe he's waiting til their wedding night to call her by her first name.

[SusanSunflower]

wrong thread -- sorry 

Edited January 12, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[pbutler111]

The storyline with Mrs. Drewe might make a bit more sense if she didn't already have a clutch of children of her own. But for a woman with several children to raise and a farm to run, having her obsessing over a child she fostered for a while makes no sense whatsoever.

[shipperx]

I'll just state that to Me Mrs Drewe has always seemed to verge on hysterics. A mother of three (four?) who has a child dropped in her lap is unlikely to become so instantly involved with the foundling that she ignores the well being of her other children which she did almost from the first as she was rejecting Edith's offer for financial help with Marigold and her future. A tenant farmer only has so much money. Dividing it between three, four, or five children makes a difference, so Mrs Drewe's immediate and constant rejection of Edith financial help was essentially depriving Marigold as well as her biological children of resources. Rejecting those resources by essentially offending her husband's boss's daughter was also repeatedly tempting fate (and the consequences finally visited upon them this episode).

From the first Mrs Drewe has overreacted, be it jealousy when nothing was romantic shenanigans were happening, to assuming kidnapping when Edith had never left the grounds, to going to the mansion to tell the boss's wife with word of potential scandal in an effort to extort the child back after knowing that this was Edith's biological child. Mrs Drewe has been shrill to Edith in every single scene the two have ever shared from the very first. Not once. Not ever. Mrs Drewe tore Marigold's birth certificate to shreds. That always bothered me. Not only was it an action trying to deny reality, it was an attempt to suppress the truth, and it was the willful destruction of something someone else treasured.

Mrs Drewe has been shown to be high strung from the first. Defensive and suspicious in virtually all instances. More demonstrably attached to a newly arrived foundling than she has ever been shown to be to her own children. Vindictive in both the birth certificate shredding and in her actions with Cora. Now she deliberately stole the child and, no, she is not a reliable narrator with regards to Marigold having been 'ignored'. Marigold was on an outing with the family. Mrs Drewe absconded with her at the first opportunity. And still she seems to refuse to recognize the truth that Edith is the biological mother-- as she did when she shredded the birth certificate.

It just seemed to me that all the sympathy is on Mrs Drewe's behalf to the point that her flaws are completely dismissed. She's been high strung all along. She was hyper-possessive. She was reckless both in her confrontation with Cora, her 'barring the landowner's daughter' from the tenant farm, to shredding the birth certificate in the face of the bio mom, to absconding the child. Even her husband approached her as though uncertain of her stability.

In theory, yes, I have sympathy for Mrs Drewe and think her situation sucked. But she never struck me as stable. She's been an odd duck all along.

I just think Mrs Drewe is often treated as though she is unflawed when I have never considered her to be close to that.

[CeeBeeGee]

A second daughter of a rusticated Earl in the north?  A five second sensation until the Prince of Wales got on with another married woman, the dashing (and shades of Prince William at his best) Duke of Kent got his picture in the paper or more news of the Happy Valley set which was starting up yet again.  

 

Prince William or Prince Harry? William has been pretty strait-laced, it's Harry who get caught in Vegas with his trousers down.

[Roseanna]

If she had stayed with the Drewes, she would have lived as the adopted child of her adoptive parents, so she would not be living a lie.

 

Yes she would because she would believe that she is orphan. If she found out that her mother lives and who she is, she would feel that she has been abandoned by her and robbed from the opportunities to education etc. she would have given her.

[Roseanna]

 

This episode again highlighted how much Mary  cares.  Mrs. Hughes may not be a fan of a wedding at the Abbey, but in all honesty, I think Mary knows Carson better than his bride-to-be does.   The Abbey is his shrine.  There is nowhere on earth that he would rather hold his reception.  Mary's kindness meant the world to him.  Of course, he and Mrs. Hughes must both like their reception site, but Mary's offer came from the heart. 

 

It was not Mary's offer that was faulty but her manner of making it. She assumed that she knew best, and best only to Carson, not to Mrs Hughes. She didn't ask, she ordered. The matter that should have decided solely between Carson and Mrs Hughes, was decided by Mary and agreed by Carson.

Edited January 12, 2016 by Roseanna

[Roseanna]

I don't think it has anything to do with being romantic or prudish.  Edith saw it as a perfect way to seriously stick it to Mary (and possibly ruin her life) since the two sisters already despised each other and Mary always seemed to have the upper hand.

 

It was a combination of both. One must remember that Edith didn't know the circumstances: that Pamuk came to Mary's bed and threatened her verbally to "consent". From Edith's POV Mary had behaved highly "immorally" by bedding the man she had just met.

 

Also, Edith wrote the letter after being several times humiliated and belittled by Mary. 

[SusanSunflower]

Edith only knew what Daisy had witnessed -- the three women -- Cora, Mary and Anna dragging/transporting Pamuks body back to his room, but 

We did not witness Daisy telling Edith. 

I never understood why Edith did not also lash out at Cora, who certain demanded proper behavior from her while privately aiding and abetting utterly wanton behavior from her sister -- with an exotic foreigner at that ... 

Edith wanted -- she said, perhaps honestly -- for Pamuk's father to "know the truth" that Pamuk did not die in his sleep in his own bed. Beyond that, I don't remember ... but I don't remember any rub-off of the incident in Edith's relationship with either Anna or Cora -- the anger at the hypocrisy only applied to Mary.  -- and it was never mentioned again because Edith's betrayal was so unforgivably wicked (in JF's world).  Meanwhile, as I recall, Thomas had contributed to the understair's community grapevine ... and Carson had been warned by a colleague in another house that there was gossip .... 

The matter of Thomas "helpfully" showing Pamuk the way to Mary's room and unlocking the door (and taking the key back to its hook) was also never mentioned. 

 

WRT Mrs. Drewe and the birth certificate, I recall wondering at the time if she could, in fact, read ... regardless, unlike other people who put 2+2 together, Mrs. Drewe had actually seen evidence that Marigold was Edith's illegitimate child -- possibly even that Marigold's father was Gregson, i.e. the illegitimate child product of Edith's relationship with a married man ... which "might" give her the power to ruin to Edith ... or at least blackmail/convince Edith to be conciliatory ... but that aspect was never explored ... a real H-bomb of a weapon to be used only in extreme emergency, when all hope had passed ... 

Mr. Drewe's insistence in Keeping Edith's Secret was part of why Mrs. Drewe worried about her husband's fidelity ... I wondered that she didn't question if HE was Marigold's father ... but then I realized in the world of JF, she was alternately much too crazy and/or too stupid to have such deep thoughts. 

[Roseanna]

it was never mentioned again because Edith's betrayal was so unforgivably wicked (in JF's world).

 

I think that the reason Edith's letter has never been mentioned is that Mary got her revenge in the end of S1 by lying to Strallan. The sisters were even and then came the war which put such things as sibling rivalry to a perspective as Mary herself said before singing.

 

There has never been so much as a hint that Mary nurtures a revenge against Edith because of the letter. When she began to snipe again it was much like originally in S1 but much more cruelly, the bottom line being: you are nothing, no man can be interested in you, you are silly to mourn a man as you should have known long ago he is death (remember than downstairs only Thomas said the same), and finally in CS being left alone with you in Dowton after Rose and Tom leaves is a fate worse than death.

[txhorns79]

The storyline with Mrs. Drewe might make a bit more sense if she didn't already have a clutch of children of her own. But for a woman with several children to raise and a farm to run, having her obsessing over a child she fostered for a while makes no sense whatsoever.

 

In fairness to Mrs. Drewe, she was under the impression she was raising the girl as her daughter, so it could have been pretty devastating when she was taken away.  Having said that, I agree that her current reaction to the situation is pretty over the top.   

[Andorra]

Funny how people seem to hear only Mary's snide remarks towards Edith and never Edith's towards Mary. Of course Edith never hits the mark while Mary always does, but she is no less nasty in her attempts to put her sister down. She usually does it when there're other people around and usually decorates it with a little "I'm the poor, poor victim and it's all her fault" remarks, too, but you'll find examples of it in nearly every episode. Still for many viewers Mary is the monster and Edith is the innocent victim of her cruel sister. 

 

I can't see that at all, sorry. For me Edith has always been much more selfish and much more underhand than Mary. Mary is nasty to her sister all the time, but she's honest to a fault. Edith is sneaky. She has no problem at all telling lies for her benefit and IMO she has no feeling for anyone else but herself.

 

Just an example that shows the difference between the sisters:

Mrs Drewe thinks she has an affair with her husband? Who cares! Edith sure doesn't. The main thing is that Edith's lie is covered.

 

Mr. Bates had to leave Downton and Anna, because Vera blackmailed him with Mary's secret? Mary instantly goes and confesses to Richard Carlisle and brings herself into the hands of that man who threatens to use the information against her if she's not the good wife for him. 

[JudyObscure]

I'm Team Mary all the way!  She can be witch at times, but if you are her friend, she will have your back no matter what.  She is the Dowager Countess all over again.  Sure she is highhanded, but she has stepped in to help the servants time and time again.  When William's mother was dying, it was Mary who made sure he got to see her.  When Carson got sick, Edith complained about the inconvenience while Mary went to visit him and made sure he was being cared for.  When Sybil married Tom, Mary (and Matthew) befriended him.  When Anna went to jail, Mary put her own reputation on the line to visit her.  If I had to choose between working for Edith and working for Mary, I would choose Mary in a heartbeat.  She rewards loyalty.  

 

This episode again highlighted how much Mary  cares.  Mrs. Hughes may not be a fan of a wedding at the Abbey, but in all honesty, I think Mary knows Carson better than his bride-to-be does.   The Abbey is his shrine.  There is nowhere on earth that he would rather hold his reception.  Mary's kindness meant the world to him.  Of course, he and Mrs. Hughes must both like their reception site, but Mary's offer came from the heart.  And Mary did not simply make an appointment for Anna or pay for her visit to the doctor.  Instead, she went with her so that she would not have to face the news alone.  

Yet, note that all Mary's loyalty and kindness is toward those much lower than her in the social scale.   With her contemporaries, it's all competition and cleverly snide remarks.  I think Mary is kind to the servants the way we might be kind to our pets.  She is sympathetic to sick or troubled servants, but she also expects complete loyalty and absolute subjection of their own feelings in favor of her desires when a conflict of interest arises. 

 

For example, the awful way she talked to Carson when he refused to go with her as butler when she was going to marry away from Downton.  She fully expected Anna to put her own feelings and morals aside when she told her to buy the contraceptives for her.  She clearly never sees them as anything approaching equals.  The Carson/Hughes wedding is a good example, in her mind she is being wonderfully generous in allowing them to marry at Downton, but her imagination could never stretch to the notion that Mrs. Hughes might actually prefer something like a country-style, outdoor wedding behind the village hall with wild flowers in her hair and dandelion wine at the reception.  I think Mary is very typical of the  Lady Bountiful aristocrat of her period and her patronizing kindness is certainly better than cruelty or indifference, but I think Mrs. Hughes, unlike Carson, sees it with all it's limitations.

[Roseanna]

Funny how people seem to hear only Mary's snide remarks towards Edith and never Edith's towards Mary. Of course Edith never hits the mark while Mary always does, but she is no less nasty in her attempts to put her sister down. She usually does it when there're other people around and usually decorates it with a little "I'm the poor, poor victim and it's all her fault" remarks, too, but you'll find examples of it in nearly every episode. Still for many viewers Mary is the monster and Edith is the innocent victim of her cruel sister. 

 

I can't see that at all, sorry. For me Edith has always been much more selfish and much more underhand than Mary. Mary is nasty to her sister all the time, but she's honest to a fault. Edith is sneaky. She has no problem at all telling lies for her benefit and IMO she has no feeling for anyone else but herself.

 

Just an example that shows the difference between the sisters:

Mrs Drewe thinks she has an affair with her husband? Who cares! Edith sure doesn't. The main thing is that Edith's lie is covered.

 

Mr. Bates had to leave Downton and Anna, because Vera blackmailed him with Mary's secret? Mary instantly goes and confesses to Richard Carlisle and brings herself into the hands of that man who threatens to use the information against her if she's not the good wife for him. 

 

Do you really believe that this a fair comparison? Mary acted for Anna and her Bates. She wouldn't do it for someone who was a stranger to her like Mrs Drewe. In fact, she wouldn't even have given Mr Drewe the farm, unless Robert had insisted on it.

 

I can't see how honesty makes a bully less a bully. Even generally, honesty isn't always virtue.

 

Also Mary has been completely capable to be sneaky (lying to Strallan,  opening Swire's letter to Matthew). 

 

Of course Edith is selfish - she has never got what what she wants (and what Mary has had all her life), so it's natural to want to it. Her means are not always good, but selfless person seldom gets anything.  But after the letter S1 Edith has never tried to take anything from Mary. Instead, Mary is selfish in the way that she must have all and Edith must have nothing.

 

Finally, I found mysterious that Mary - after a period of relative peace between sisters in S2 and S3 - returned her old behavior to belittle Edith in CS although Mary was happily married with Matthew and Edith had done nothing to provoke it (unless having an admirer is seen a provoke). And after Matthew's death Mary has become more and more cruel and mean towards Edith as shown that she didn't cease it even when the final news Gregson's death came. It was hardly a coincidence that Mary commented it in the same way as Thomas who is the character most lacking decency and empathy in the show.

 

In their interaction Edith usually says something which it true although less flattering about Mary. Instead, Mary usually says something which isn't true about Edith although it might have been true before the war. 

Edited January 12, 2016 by Roseanna

[Avaleigh]

Edith probably resented Mary's constant needling of her and catching Mary in not only a lie but also immorality, she saw a chance..  It was wrong of Edith to do it but that's really the last time I remember Edith being nasty to Mary whereas Mary is constantly putting her down.  She includes Tom but not Edith in her sibling things and even last episode, she "corrected" Edith that it was  Gregson's apartment not hers.When Edith learned that Gregson died, Mary was insulted that people were paying attention to Edith rather than her own new look.

 

It's not quite the same though. You're not a servant at the hotel and I presume you go home at night.  For Mrs. Hughes, Downton Abbey is where she's a servant and lives all the time and people give her orders and just once, on her wedding day, she'd like to forget all that and be the mistress. If she's still having to bow to the Crawleys in their own home, then she still feels like a servant.

 

Just how careful the servants  have to be with regards to their behaviour among the gentry was highlighted by Daisy expecting to be fired for speaking out to the new owner of the other property.  She was on her own time, she didn't do anything illegal or even offensive but Daisy, Carson and probably a number of other servants and gentry expected her to be fired for speaking up.  Servants  have to be careful how they behave and speak around their employers, even on their own time and place.

I remember that incident being the other way around. I remember Edith throwing a fit because Mary had the nerve to get a haircut after Edith found out about Gregson even though Edith hadn't seen Gregson for years and Mary had and still has no idea about the depth of the relationship. Edith had an outburst in front of everyone after Mary came in smiling. She told Mary off, told the family that they were wrong for still wanting to go through with the fun weekend they had planned, and she stormed out of the room. Mary didn't snap at Edith until after Edith had gone after her--as is usually the case with the two of them.

 

Since season 1 Edith will say something to get under Mary's skin. She'll be rude, insensitive, and combative and then cue the sad face when Mary gives it back to her. I can only think of two occasions where Mary needled Edith first and not the other way around and one was at Duneagle when Mary was pregnant and being nasty about Gregson. 

 

I never understood why Edith did not also lash out at Cora, who certain demanded proper behavior from her while privately aiding and abetting utterly wanton behavior from her sister -- with an exotic foreigner at that ...

It is surprising that Edith wouldn't pout about this but maybe some tiny part of her gets that Cora wasn't only thinking about Mary when she helped her to cover up the scandal. 

Edith wanted -- she said, perhaps honestly -- for Pamuk's father to "know the truth" that Pamuk did not die in his sleep in his own bed.

 

 

I didn't believe that Edith gave a damn how Pamuk's father felt. I thought it was all about revenge. Even the way she cozies up to Daisy to get information by acting like she cares about Daisy seemed sneaky like something O'Brien would have done. 

The matter of Thomas "helpfully" showing Pamuk the way to Mary's room and unlocking the door (and taking the key back to its hook) was also never mentioned.

 

 

Who knows to mention it other than Thomas? I've always thought that Thomas is incredibly lucky that people don't even know the half of it when it comes to him yet he still inspires nonstop sympathy because of his nonexistent love life. 

[MakeMeLaugh]

This episode was pretty boring--hence all the discussion here about long ago events vs what actually happened on this episode.

The whole drawn-out and boring Drewe plotline is just a device to allow stupid Daisy's FIL fired storyline to have a resolution. Hilarious that little Marigold was comatose when she was found with Mrs. Drewe--so was I by that time.

I would hate to have Edith as a boss.

How magnanimous of the family to insist the wedding be held at the mansion--a gesture that costs them very little. Blah.

I agree with the above poster about some of the clothing--when Mary stripped down to her lace and silk skivvies, they were absolutely gorgeous (and comfortable-looking) and I wonder/hope if one of the lingerie companies will be marketing a line based on DA.

Edited January 12, 2016 by MakeMeLaugh

[txhorns79]

Who knows to mention it other than Thomas? I've always thought that Thomas is incredibly lucky that people don't even know the half of it when it comes to him yet he still inspires nonstop sympathy because of his nonexistent love life.

 

Seriously.  For all the nastiness sometimes directed at Thomas for being gay, he's still a fairly awful person.  I suppose it is a chicken and egg thing: Is Thomas nasty because he can't be open about his desires, or would he just be a jerk no matter the circumstances?  It's almost comical how Baxter tried to be kind to Thomas a few times during the episode, and each time she tried, he responded to her nastily.  Heck, even Mrs. Patmore tried to be kind to Thomas, telling him rather politely that he should back off on his crush, and he responded to her in a nasty fashion.      

 

How magnanimous of the family to insist the wedding be held at the mansion--a gesture that costs them very little. Blah.

 

I don't know.  Does a gesture only mean something if someone spends a lot of money?  I think within the context of the show, it would be considered a very big honor for the family to offer their home to two of the servants as a place for their wedding.     

[ShadowFacts]

 

Who knows to mention it other than Thomas? I've always thought that Thomas is incredibly lucky that people don't even know the half of it when it comes to him yet he still inspires nonstop sympathy because of his nonexistent love life.

 

He is lucky that some of his deeds are never uncovered, and I think that is how he has been able to escape being fired.  But I don't think he gets nonstop sympathy --maybe from some fans, but not in-show.  He gets some sympathy from Anna and Baxter, but others' reactions to him run the gamut from tolerance or indifference to revulsion and hostility.  I think the fact that he is essentially an outsider is what inspires the sympathy both in- and out of show.  Sure, he's a creep a lot of the time, but that is tempered with some instances of goodness and selflessness, and that also evokes empathy, along with the shitty things people like Carson say to him.

[fishcakes]

Mrs. Drewe attacked Edith?

 

No, she never did. That's another fiction like, "she neglected her own children" and "she was obsessed with Marigold" that for some reason has taken hold in order to justify Edith's heinous behavior. There's never been any evidence of any of that either onscreen or discussed by other characters.

 

 

Yes she would because she would believe that she is orphan.

 

And with Edith, she still believes she's an orphan, just one who's been adopted by Edith instead of the Drewes.

Edited January 12, 2016 by fishcakes

[stillshimpy]

Heh, maybe it's because I don't have a sister, but the pitting of Mary and Edith against each other in the "who was worse/who was better" games always tends to end in a tie for me and I don't really have a dog in that hunt.  I like both characters for different reasons, but judging by how often they are discussed in relationship to one another, I think it's probably the most successful and resonant relationship Julian Fellowes created in the entirety of the show.  Again, I could be wrong because (long story, but I didn't grow up with my brother) I have never had a sibling relationship.  Just watching the debate over the years it really seems to cut very close to the bone for a lot of people.   Seems like that relationship, above all others in the show, has the most readily accessible emotional authenticity for most viewers.  Far more so than any of the romantic relationships on the show. 

 

It looks like both characters are set to embark on jobs/careers of sorts.  Edith as a newspaper editor and Mary managing the estate in a more formalized fashion.  

 

I think the point with the way the editor was talking to Edith is that he'd never have dared risk speaking to his male employer in that fashion.  Mary in amongst the pigs was the mostly delightfully bizarre image, since she has such chilly elegance in almost everything she does.  Hard concept to marry to "....and there she is, by a very furry pig...hmmm....odd sight."  

 

Agreeing with whoever observed that the hospital subplot is so boring, it committed the unforgivable sin in Downtonverse:  rendering Violet dull and uninteresting.  Bad hospital plot, bad. 

[nora1992]

I remember that incident being the other way around. I remember Edith throwing a fit because Mary had the nerve to get a haircut after Edith found out about Gregson even though Edith hadn't seen Gregson for years and Mary had and still has no idea about the depth of the relationship. Edith had an outburst in front of everyone after Mary came in smiling. She told Mary off, told the family that they were wrong for still wanting to go through with the fun weekend they had planned, and she stormed out of the room. Mary didn't snap at Edith until after Edith had gone after her--as is usually the case with the two of them.

 

Regarding this: the entire family went into a self-imposed exile for 6 months after Matthew's death.  That meant Edith gave up six months of seeing Gregson.  Then the day after receiving the news that all hope was lost, she did not fall into raptures because her sister got a new haircut.  Is this overreacting?  Before you answer, consider the house party in season 4.  Remember when Mary, Tom, Rose and others went dancing in the hall?  Remember how the dancing ceased when Mary realized that the gramophone in use had been a wedding present to Lavinia and Matthew?  Everyone looked at Mary with sympathy.  Seven months later, the site of a gramophone that had been given to her dead husband's dead fiancée?  The poor unfortunate widow!  Twenty four hours later, hating Edith because she didn't bounce back as quickly as Mary did?  That bitch!

 

Edith can only be happy when Mary is.  When Mary is miserable, the one thing that gives her solace is knowing that Edith is even more miserable.  Remember Valentine's Day in Season 4?  Edith got a Valentine's, and was walking up the stairs, happy.  She sees Mary on the steps.  Mary, who has spent six months moving silently throughout the house, rouses from her grief to question Edith's happiness.  Mary made Edith feel awkward for having a brief moment of happiness, and Edith felt for her sister, not rubbing Mary's nose in it.  Edith fights for survival; Mary demeans because that is the only way she knows how to survive.  Her last resort has always been: at least I'm better than Edith.  Remember that when you consider the sisters.

[Andorra]

 

Yet, note that all Mary's loyalty and kindness is toward those much lower than her in the social scale.

 

Since when is it important to whom a person is kind? Mary is kind to her father, to Tom, to Anna, to Bates, to Matthew, to Lavinia, to Sybil, to Wiliam etc. She is kind to  many people. Actually the only person she is NOT kind to is her sister and sometimes her mother. And which daughter doesn't have a problem with her mother from time to time? It's family!

 

She is well liked by a lot of people, too and that should tell us something. Are they all blind and stupid? Or maybe Edith is the one being biased?

 

She is the one having a problem with her sister, but it is not at all one sided. It is not Mary's fault that Edith is not the most admired sister. It is not Edith's fault that she has many suitors and Edith hasn't. It is also not Mary's fault that Edith made her mistakes and yet Mary gets all the blame just for being more popular, more beautiful and more confident.

 

I hate Edith's victim card. Even now: She has Marigold, she has a newspaper, she has a beautiful flat in London. And what does she do? Moan about her life. Poor, poor Edith. 

 

The haircut scene is the same. Edith hasn't told anyone about her relationship with Gregson. They knew he was a friend and that Edith was devastated that he disappeared, but they didn't know they were lovers, they didn't know they wanted to marry. He was gone for two years and so IMO Mary couldn't be expected to see the whole intensity of Edith's feelings when he died. Yes, displaying her haircut was tactless, but was it malicious? 

 

When has Mary ever done anything to destroy Edith's life besides telling a lie to Anthony Strallan for revenge? Nothing. When has she ever done anything to destroy ANYONE'S life? Where does the expectation come from that Mary would go and destroy Edith if she found out about Marigold? Just because she and Edith don't get along well and because Mary is usually the winner when it comes to snide remarks?

[Alonzo Mosely FBI]

What did Anna mean when in the adoption convo w/Bates "You're tribal, and there aren't that many members left in the tribe." I didn't follow that. ??? 

[Andorra]

 

the entire family went into a self-imposed exile for 6 months after Matthew's death.  That meant Edith gave up six months of seeing Gregson.  Then the day after receiving the news that all hope was lost, she did not fall into raptures because her sister got a new haircut.  Is this overreacting?

 

Yes it is, because for one the family itself mourned for Matthew. Mary not only lost her husband, they lost a surrogate son, a brother a father. The important difference is though: WE knew the depth of Edith's feelings for Gregson, but the family didn't. They met the man twice. Once in Scotland and then at the house party. They thought Edith and he were mainly colleagues. No one knew they were going to get married, they weren't engaged and they certainly didn't know they were lovers.

 

As far as they were concerned they were friends. They might have even known that Edith had been in love with him, because she was so unhappy when he disappeared, but they had no idea she was mourning the love of her life. WE knew, but the family didn't know at all. 

What did Anna mean when in the adoption convo w/Bates "You're tribal, and there aren't that many members left in the tribe." I didn't follow that. ??? 

 

I think he is the last of his family and that would be why he would like to have a son to perserve the "tribe". 

[Avaleigh]

Funny how people seem to hear only Mary's snide remarks towards Edith and never Edith's towards Mary. Of course Edith never hits the mark while Mary always does, but she is no less nasty in her attempts to put her sister down. She usually does it when there're other people around and usually decorates it with a little "I'm the poor, poor victim and it's all her fault" remarks, too, but you'll find examples of it in nearly every episode. Still for many viewers Mary is the monster and Edith is the innocent victim of her cruel sister. 

 

I can't see that at all, sorry. For me Edith has always been much more selfish and much more underhand than Mary. Mary is nasty to her sister all the time, but she's honest to a fault. Edith is sneaky. She has no problem at all telling lies for her benefit and IMO she has no feeling for anyone else but herself.

 

Just an example that shows the difference between the sisters:

Mrs Drewe thinks she has an affair with her husband? Who cares! Edith sure doesn't. The main thing is that Edith's lie is covered.

 

Mr. Bates had to leave Downton and Anna, because Vera blackmailed him with Mary's secret? Mary instantly goes and confesses to Richard Carlisle and brings herself into the hands of that man who threatens to use the information against her if she's not the good wife for him. 

I feel like it's a combination of Mary having icier lines on top of Edith being self-pitying in general that makes some viewers think that Edith isn't still an equal participant in the rivalry. Every time I see the claim that Edith hasn't done anything to Mary since season 1 I wonder why Edith's behavior towards Mary in seasons 2-5 is so consistently ignored. 

 

Mary is taken to task for not figuring out that Edith had a sexual relationship with Gregson. When Mary begins a sexual relationship with Gillingham, it's Edith who has questions and doubts about the "sketching" holiday because she knows it's bs and she wants to make Mary feel uncomfortable in front of the family. Edith's instinct is to needle Mary about this and to annoy her and bring everyone else's attention to it. That's the sort of sister that Edith is to Mary and Mary knows it perfectly well. During the season 5 Christmas Special you have Edith being snotty and saying in front of everyone other people including Mary that everyone else is getting on with their lives except for Mary. When Mary starts talking about being the agent we get a shot of an obvious eyeroll from Edith. I think Edith's attitude about Mary being the estate agent is similar to Mary's attitude towards Edith and the paper.

 

There's a long list of moments but Mary is generally considered to be the sister who is mean to her sister and I've always maintained that they basically treat each other the same way. I think of Sybil's "not like my sisters" comment to Gwen back in season 1 and I think that Sybil actually saw them as being very similar.

 

Finally, I found mysterious that Mary - after a period of relative peace between sisters in S2 and S3 - returned her old behavior to belittle Edith in CS although Mary was happily married with Matthew and Edith had done nothing to provoke it (unless having an admirer is seen a provoke).

I think what's often overlooked here is that it was odd that Gregson had followed them when he wasn't invited to stay and it reeked of him possibly being a social climber like Richard Carlisle. I never saw anything unusual about Mary being suspicious about this guy possibly being an interloper.

[proserpina65]

I don't know.  Does a gesture only mean something if someone spends a lot of money?  I think within the context of the show, it would be considered a very big honor for the family to offer their home to two of the servants as a place for their wedding.

 

It would, if it was offered and both members of the couple accepted it.  Mrs. Hughes doesn't want to be married at the Abbey.  Carson knows that, and yet won't tell Lady Mary the truth about it.  And Mary, being the steamroller she is (sometimes to the good, admittedly), won't accept no for an answer, possibly because she hasn't been told the real reason for Mrs. Hughes' refusal.  I'd like to see the scene of Mary talking to Mrs. Hughes and finding out the actual situation; maybe then Mary would back off.

[Andorra]

 

There's a long list of moments but Mary is generally considered to be the sister who is mean to her sister and I've always maintained that they basically treat each other the same way. I think of Sybil's "not like my sisters" comment to Gwen back in season 1 and I think that Sybil actually saw them as being very similar.

 

Exactly!

[Constantinople]

Regarding this: the entire family went into a self-imposed exile for 6 months after Matthew's death.  That meant Edith gave up six months of seeing Gregson.

 

I don't recall the family going into self-imposed exile for six months, any more so than they normally are given that pretty much everything has to take place in or around Downton Abbey.  Season 4 started 6 months after Season 3 and Mary, Matthew's widow, and Isobel, Matthew's mother, were still in mourning.  It would have been difficult to get away in the first few weeks after Matthew's death and George' birth.  Afterwards, I don't see why Edith couldn't have seen Gregson.

[Roseanna]

I remember that incident being the other way around. I remember Edith throwing a fit because Mary had the nerve to get a haircut after Edith found out about Gregson even though Edith hadn't seen Gregson for years and Mary had and still has no idea about the depth of the relationship. Edith had an outburst in front of everyone after Mary came in smiling. She told Mary off, told the family that they were wrong for still wanting to go through with the fun weekend they had planned, and she stormed out of the room. Mary didn't snap at Edith until after Edith had gone after her--as is usually the case with the two of them.

 

 

Mary had on purpose chosen to have a new hair on the same day as Edith learned the sad news. She came in and demanded everyone praise her hair. Edith rose, evidently to go out of the room. Mary didn't let her to be but asked "you don't approve". And it was only after that Edith got what you call a "fit". Anybody would have reacted and most of us with a much stronger way!

 

One doesn't have to know how deep the other's relationship is to feel empathy for her sorrow  - or at least be silent if one has nothing positive to say. That applies even to a person whom one doesn't particularly like when he has lost his old dog. Even if one doesn't like dogs at all, one doesn't say things like that "but you know that dog will eventually die" or "but you have said anything about my new hair".

 

As for Gregson being missing for a year, Anna said downstairs that he died only today for Edith. And for once Anna didn't approve Mary's remarks even alone with her.

[ShadowFacts]

 

Heh, maybe it's because I don't have a sister, but the pitting of Mary and Edith against each other in the "who was worse/who was better" games always tends to end in a tie for me and I don't really have a dog in that hunt.  I like both characters for different reasons, but judging by how often they are discussed in relationship to one another, I think it's probably the most successful and resonant relationship Julian Fellowes created in the entirety of the show.  Again, I could be wrong because (long story, but I didn't grow up with my brother) I have never had a sibling relationship.  Just watching the debate over the years it really seems to cut very close to the bone for a lot of people.   Seems like that relationship, above all others in the show, has the most readily accessible emotional authenticity for most viewers.  Far more so than any of the romantic relationships on the show.

 

I think you've really hit on something here.  I mean, just look at the keystrokes we devote to this relationship.  I think in a way Fellowes has overdone it inasmuch as the relationship sort of sucks the oxygen out of other things going on.  It does not help that I can't get extra worked up over the Hughes/Carson wedding, and as has been said, the hospital conflict with Isobel and Violet is kind of falling flat.  This sibling rivalry resonates for lots of people, I am sure.  I never had a sister, but several brothers, and I can attest that the sibling relationship can bring out the best and worst in people.  I've read that two same-gender sibs close in age often have the worst rivalries, if that is even the right word.  It does describe Mary and Edith.  They're both mean to each other, that much is clear.  It gets old.  The point has been made in the show over and over. 

[Avaleigh]

Regarding this: the entire family went into a self-imposed exile for 6 months after Matthew's death.  That meant Edith gave up six months of seeing Gregson.  Then the day after receiving the news that all hope was lost, she did not fall into raptures because her sister got a new haircut.  Is this overreacting?  Before you answer, consider the house party in season 4.  Remember when Mary, Tom, Rose and others went dancing in the hall?  Remember how the dancing ceased when Mary realized that the gramophone in use had been a wedding present to Lavinia and Matthew?  Everyone looked at Mary with sympathy.  Seven months later, the site of a gramophone that had been given to her dead husband's dead fiancée?  The poor unfortunate widow!  Twenty four hours later, hating Edith because she didn't bounce back as quickly as Mary did?  That bitch!

Regarding the comment in bold:

 

I was responding to a poster who was saying that Mary threw a fit because Edith wasn't all happy and complimentary about her haircut and that isn't what I remember happening. I don't think anybody was expecting Edith to get excited over Mary's haircut. 

 

Where I thought Edith was overreacting was the way that she wanted the family to magically understand the depth of her relationship to Gregson when she actively kept it a secret and went out of her way to hide it from them. Edith is the one who chose to downplay it because Gregson was married and Matthew had given his opinion that Gregson should get out of the picture because of this. Matthew was the only one to know about the marriage so Edith was able to carry on with the relationship but she still kept the depth of it a secret. Rosamund specifically caught Edith having spent all night with Gregson so Edith knew there was no point in hiding the truth from her. One of the reasons Rosamund has been an ideal person for Edith to talk to is because she's in possession of all the facts. 

 

I also think that it's unfair to compare the family reaction for Matthew to Gregson when the family had every reason to feel the blow of Matthew's death more. The family didn't know all of the facts about Gregson on top of not being close to him or knowing him well. Even Rosamund admits that she didn't know Gregson and she was the most in the loop. 

 

I thought Edith's reaction was out of proportion given the information that her family had at the time. 

Edited January 12, 2016 by Avaleigh

[DrSparkles]

Remember when Robert had a heart scare a while back, and it turned out to be an ulcer?  I wonder if he has another episode of this and the old fashioned hospital doesn't work for him?  That would be an interesting side story to the Isobel and Violet controversy.  

 

Did Daisy consummate her marriage ?  I don't think they ever did because he was going to die and everyone knew it.  

 

Someone upthread made mention of Marigold's looks and I have to agree that I thought the child was weird looking and I wondered if she might just be mentally challenged.   While I know that Edith is not a raving beauty, Gregson was a very nice looking man, but they, IMHO, have made Marigold to be a not so cute child.  

Her head is HUGE.

[PRgal]

She had no choice because the Dowager and Rosamund were about to spirit her away to a "school" for little embarrassments. Whoever got to raise her, it wouldn't be the Drewes. 

 

Well, if it's that "old house in Paris that was covered with vines," then it would be pretty cool :P (but considering how UNRESPONSIVE Marigold is, she is most definitely NOT Madeline (not to mention, she's not ginger)). 

[JudyObscure]

Since when is it important to whom a person is kind? Mary is kind to her father, to Tom, to Anna, to Bates, to Matthew, to Lavinia, to Sybil, to Wiliam etc.

 

Of course kindness is always a good thing but when one's kindness includes an element of patronage then it's a little bit tainted to me.  I wouldn't include anyone but the servants in your kindness list.  Mary often belittles her father in front of others,  she disparages Americans in front of her Mother, was civil to Lavinia but didn't fully honor her engagement, and Matthew was only in good graces with her as long as he was "on her side," and let her have her way about everything.  It's not often mentioned, but I thought one of the worst things she did was insist he go against his principles regarding the inheritance.

 

It's true that both sisters have been cruel to each other, but from the very first episode, when Mary just had to prove to Edith that she not only always had the most attention of men, she could take away the interest of the one and only man in the room who was talking to Edith.  That's just such bad grace in victory.  Her father pointed it out and seemed rather proud of May for it.  From the moment Edith was old enough to look around her she must have seen that Mary, due to her greater beauty, had already won in life.  The two most important men at Downton were devoted to Mary to the near exclusion of anyone else.  Mary and the rest of the family should have made extra effort to keep Edith from being always constantly aware of her lower status in the all important beauty rankings, but instead they did just the opposite and kept it in front of her at all times.  If Edith grew up a little bitter and self pitying it's not surprising.

 

I don't have any sisters, but I've had girlfriends who weren't as popular as I was and I always downplayed it as much as possible, ("Oh, they're all just asking me to dance because they think I'm easy,") sort of thing. Mary wont do anything like that for her own sister and I just find it totally self-centered and cruel.

[Roseanna]

Since when is it important to whom a person is kind? Mary is kind to her father, to Tom, to Anna, to Bates, to Matthew, to Lavinia, to Sybil, to Wiliam etc. She is kind to  many people. Actually the only person she is NOT kind to is her sister and sometimes her mother. And which daughter doesn't have a problem with her mother from time to time? It's family!

 

She is well liked by a lot of people, too and that should tell us something. Are they all blind and stupid? Or maybe Edith is the one being biased?

 

She is the one having a problem with her sister, but it is not at all one sided. It is not Mary's fault that Edith is not the most admired sister. It is not Edith's fault that she has many suitors and Edith hasn't. It is also not Mary's fault that Edith made her mistakes and yet Mary gets all the blame just for being more popular, more beautiful and more confident.

 

I don't think it's a benefit to be nice to people who are nice to you and/or with whom you have no collision on interests. Everybody can do it without any trouble.

 

The only exception in Mary's list is Lavinia from whom she didn't even try seduce Matthew. Perhaps it would have better if she had, and succeeded, for then Lavinia wouldn't have to die.

 

Of course it was not Mary's fault that she was beautiful, witty and admired by men. But it was her fault that success made her arrogant and that she lacked grace. If you have just realized that somebody you have overlooked is in fact an interesting young man, why on earth does it annoy that your ugly sister glees over the conquest of a man you aren't interested in, so that you can't help showing that you will get him too.

[Crs97]

And Mary, being the steamroller she is (sometimes to the good, admittedly), won't accept no for an answer, possibly because she hasn't been told the real reason for Mrs. Hughes' refusal.  I'd like to see the scene of Mary talking to Mrs. Hughes and finding out the actual situation; maybe then Mary would back off.

 

 

Yes to this!  They don't know the real reason for her refusal.  Carson said they would be laying a claim to which they weren't entitled.  We know it's code for "OMG, no!" but to their ears it must have sounded like, "We are just lowly servants and don't deserve the great hall."  Of course Mary declared they must have the reception at the Abbey; she thinks they really want it there but just don't want to presume to say yes.  I hope we get to see Mary and Mrs. Hughes talk about this!

 

 

Mary had on purpose chosen to have a new hair on the same day as Edith learned the sad news.

 

 

I don't understand this.  Mary found out about Gregson's death and called her hairdresser so that she could get her new cut that same day?

 

Yet, note that all Mary's loyalty and kindness is toward those much lower than her in the social scale.

 

 

 

It's interesting that that is considered a bad thing here.  When I dated, I paid particular attention to how my date treated wait staff, car attendants, ushers, etc.  I always believed someone's true character can be revealed in how they treat someone who might be perceived to be in a subordinate role in a given situation.

[Avaleigh]

Mary had on purpose chosen to have a new hair on the same day as Edith learned the sad news. She came in and demanded everyone praise her hair. Edith rose, evidently to go out of the room. Mary didn't let her to be but asked "you don't approve". And it was only after that Edith got what you call a "fit". Anybody would have reacted and most of us with a much stronger way!

 

One doesn't have to know how deep the other's relationship is to feel empathy for her sorrow  - or at least be silent if one has nothing positive to say. That applies even to a person whom one doesn't particularly like when he has lost his old dog. Even if one doesn't like dogs at all, one doesn't say things like that "but you know that dog will eventually die" or "but you have said anything about my new hair".

I don't recall Edith factoring into Mary's decision to get a haircut. Mary wasn't sitting in front of her mirror thinking 'Hmm, how can I take away attention from Edith since she's just found out that that guy she was interested in years ago died?' She was looking at her reflection and was wondering if she was starting to look frumpy. She knows she's going to be seen in public soon and she wants to remind the suitors of what they're missing. I don't recall Mary purposely getting her haircut to thumb her nose at Edith. 

 

Edith was angrily leaving the room because Mary came in happy and people were complimenting her and paying attention to her. Edith getting up in a huff made it obvious to everyone that she was upset and looking to be acknowledged.

 

I think of Violet's comment about how they can't go to pieces over the death of every foreigner and I think that part of that attitude is why the family would continue to follow through with their weekend plans. Unless it's official mourning then they're going to try to continue on as they normally would, Mary included. 

 

Edith didn't seem to cut her family any slack for not knowing how serious her feelings were for Gregson. They're blamed for not knowing even though it was Edith's decision to keep the truth from everyone. This is an example of what I mean when I feel like Edith's choices are a large part of the reason why she's ended up finding herself dealing with various situations. 

 

It's true that both sisters have been cruel to each other, but from the very first episode, when Mary just had to prove to Edith that she not only always had the most attention of men, she could take away the interest of the one and only man in the room who was talking to Edith.  That's just such bad grace in victory.  Her father pointed it out and seemed rather proud of May for it.  From the moment Edith was old enough to look around her she must have seen that Mary, due to her greater beauty, had already won in life.  The two most important men at Downton were devoted to Mary to the near exclusion of anyone else.  Mary and the rest of the family should have made extra effort to keep Edith from being always constantly aware of her lower status in the all important beauty rankings, but instead they did just the opposite and kept it in front of her at all times.  If Edith grew up a little bitter and self pitying it's not surprising.

I saw this scene in such a different way. I saw Edith as being the one who couldn't be happy with her victory that evening. Edith had received attention and praise from her mother and from Sir Anthony that evening and that wasn't enough for Edith. It didn't feel good for her without also rubbing Mary's face in it.

 

Mary wouldn't have given Sir Anthony another thought but Edith had to be smug and gloat and challenge Mary. Edith was being completely obnoxious for no reason. She was snarking about Mary sharing a giggle with Matthew over the salty pudding and being overall unpleasant with Mary. So Edith challenges Mary and Mary is wrong for accepting the challenge. I agree that Mary shouldn't have let Edith get to her because it ended up stalling her relationship with Matthew but again, I feel like there's this idea that innocent Edith didn't do anything wrong here and it's Mary just being mean to be mean and it wasn't like that from my perspective. Edith instigates and pricks at Mary and gets sad when Mary ultimately gives it back to her. 

 

From the very first episode of the show we saw how the dynamic was between the sisters. Edith was reading Mary's private correspondence to Evelyn Napier. Edith implying that Mary is lacking because she doesn't read the papers enough and then looking offended when Mary responds that she's too busy living her life. 

[Roseanna]

Regarding the comment in bold:

 

I was responding to a poster who was saying that Mary threw a fit because Edith wasn't all happy and complimentary about her haircut and that isn't what I remember happening. I don't think anybody was expecting Edith to get excited over Mary's haircut. 

 

Where I thought Edith was overreacting was the way that she wanted the family to magically understand the depth of her relationship to Gregson when she actively kept it a secret and went out of her way to hide it from them. Edith is the one who chose to downplay it because Gregson was married and Matthew had given his opinion that Gregson should get out of the picture because of this. Matthew was the only one to know about the marriage so Edith was able to carry on with the relationship but she still kept the depth of it a secret. Rosamund specifically caught Edith having spent all night with Gregson so Edith knew there was no point in hiding the truth from her. One of the reasons Rosamund has been an ideal person for Edith to talk to is because she's in possession of all the facts. 

 

I also think that it's unfair to compare the family reaction for Matthew to Gregson when the family had every reason to feel the blow of Matthew's death more. The family didn't know all of the facts about Gregson on top of not being close to him or knowing him well. Even Rosamund admits that she didn't know Gregson and she was the most in the loop. 

 

I thought Edith's reaction was out of proportion given the information that her family had at the time. 

 

 

The family had no need to know the "facts" (although Robert began to suspect as he had been present when Edith learned the news and told Cora and both felt sympathy). They had only to use their eyes and see that Edith was low-spirited.  

 

The servants also felt sympathy, except Thomas, although they knew even less.

 

You can mourn deeply also a friend, especially one who made your talents blossom and gave you a chance to begin a career. Plus that friend was murdered. 

[Roseanna]

I don't recall Edith factoring into Mary's decision to get a haircut. Mary wasn't sitting in front of her mirror thinking 'Hmm, how can I take away attention from Edith since she's just found out that that guy she was interested in years ago died?' She was looking at her reflection and was wondering if she was starting to look frumpy. She knows she's going to be seen in public soon and she wants to remind the suitors of what they're missing. I don't recall Mary purposely getting her haircut to thumb her nose at Edith. 

 

I think it was quite obvious. First Mary wonders to Anna how the sad news can be a surprise to Edith ("does she think that the man has being living in a tree") and even the loyal Anna thinks that is malicious and asks her mistress not to say that in public and Mary says of course not, but evidently it was only a formality and not heart-felt.

 

After that ​Mary begins to think of new hair without realizing that it wasn't proper way to behave in the day like that. Not a thought how comfort her sister which any normal person would have done, even if it was "only" her friend who had died.

 

Either Mary couldn't stand that Edith would get more attention than her from the rest of family even a single day (for in fact Robert had shown his concern in being present when Edith learned the news). Or (a kinder version) Edith's sorrow reminded her of Matthew's death and she couldn't stand it, so she had to make the day jolly.

[Roseanna]

I think what's often overlooked here is that it was odd that Gregson had followed them when he wasn't invited to stay and it reeked of him possibly being a social climber like Richard Carlisle. I never saw anything unusual about Mary being suspicious about this guy possibly being an interloper.

 

I must confess that I can't understand that kind of behavior.

 

First, Gregson had made his success himself and I find that kind of man much more worthy than Crawleys who had inherited the title and estate. And after Tom married Sybil and they had got to know him, they should have learned that one must value a man according to his character and merits, not his rank. Second, Gregson had given Edith a chance to begin a career of her own, so the family should have grateful to him. Third, even if he was "only" Edith's friend and she spent a lot of time with him, a normal family would have invited him with pleasure in order to get to know him.

[jumper sage]

Ugh, Mary and Mr. Carson annoy me!

I have always thought that something would come of that relationship.  Don't we know that Rosamund was in the same situation as Edith at one time and that's how she knew what to do?  Just going out on a limb here.........Rosamund/Carson illicit affair and then Mary needs a home and taken it by Lord Granthem??????

 

It would make for a good story line and shut the Mary up right quick.  Her son would still be the "actual" heir since the lineage is with Rosamund.

 

Manor of Speaking site.

Edited January 12, 2016 by jumper sage

[Roseanna]

I have always thought that something would come of that relationship.  Don't we know that Rosamund was in the same situation as Edith at one time and that's how she knew what to do?  Just going out on a limb here.........Rosamund/Carson illicit affair and then Mary needs a home and taken it by Lord Granthem??????

 

It would make for a good story line and shut the Mary up right quick.  Her son would still be the "actual" heir since the lineage is with Rosamund.

 

Manor of Speaking site.

 

George is the heir, because he is Matthew's son. Who George's mother is, doesn't matter one bit.

 

The general rule is that legally the father of a child born in wedlock is the mother's husband. Even if somebody else is a biological father doesn't matter so long if the husband doesn't legally object.

[CeeBeeGee]

I have always thought that something would come of that relationship.  Don't we know that Rosamund was in the same situation as Edith at one time and that's how she knew what to do?  Just going out on a limb here.........Rosamund/Carson illicit affair and then Mary needs a home and taken it by Lord Granthem??????

 

It would make for a good story line and shut the Mary up right quick.  Her son would still be the "actual" heir since the lineage is with Rosamund.

 

Manor of Speaking site.

 

George would be the heir no matter what--his claim is through Matthew, not through Mary. Nobles titles go through the male line, not the female. If Matthew had married Lavinia and sired George, he would still be the heir to Downton.

[skyways]

There's a long list of moments but Mary is generally considered to be the sister who is mean to her sister and I've always maintained that they basically treat each other the same way.

 

 Case closed. Those who see Edith as only a recipient of Mary's tongue or Mary as the only vicious one have probably had Mary somewhere in their lives and couldn't match up or spit back. But that IS NOT Edith. She gives as good as she gets ( but probably hates that she can't fully take Mary down) but she'll keep trying. Both do not like each other.

[Kohola3]

I'm confused.  Isn't this discussion supposed to be about the most recent episode?

 

I, too, cannot work up a lather over the hospital thing.  Seems like just a reason for Violet and Isobel to argue and that's falling pretty flat.

[Roseanna]

 

It's interesting that that is considered a bad thing here.  When I dated, I paid particular attention to how my date treated wait staff, car attendants, ushers, etc.  I always believed someone's true character can be revealed in how they treat someone who might be perceived to be in a subordinate role in a given situation.

 

Of course it's good sign per se. But the crux of the matter is that Mary treats well only the servants but her relationships with middle class (Matthew "the sea monster") and equals, especially her own family, is lacking, She confides to her maid who can't ever criticize her not to a woman friend who could if needed. Of course it can be due to the show's budget, but what we have seen of Mary, she is the type of woman whom other woman doesn't particularly like because she wants to keep men in thrall simply in order to show her power (Strallan, Gillingam). Rose doesn't quite qualify as an equal woman friend because she is so much younger that Mary took the role of guardian. It would have interesting to see they compete about the same man but for some reason Fellowes missed this plot.

[Almost 3000]

The storyline with Mrs. Drewe might make a bit more sense if she didn't already have a clutch of children of her own. But for a woman with several children to raise and a farm to run, having her obsessing over a child she fostered for a while makes no sense whatsoever.

I agree and would add it sounds like more of a recipe for abuse than love. The story has never made any sense to me but for just being a story of the Abby life and so I'll just go with it because I like the Downton pretty.

[Roseanna]

But that IS NOT Edith. She gives as good as she gets ( but probably hates that she can't fully take Mary down) but she'll keep trying. Both do not like each other.

 

That was true in S1. But Edith did not even try rub Mary's face to dirt when Matthew was MIA, nor when he died. Granted, Edith liked Matthew too, but a really mean person would have done it nevertheless, simply not to miss so good a chance.

 

And there is another significant difference: Edith wants equality, or at least something. Mary wants to have all and Edith to have nothing.

 

It's also Edith who made an offer of peace when Sybil died and who took Mary's hand in CS when they were with Tom in the nursery and remembered together Sybil.  

[TheGreenKnight]

It’s easy for Mary to be nice to Anna and Carson, because they serve her needs and always make over her. She also had to depend on Anna because of the secret with Pamuk, which naturally would build a strong bond. If it became a case of choosing Anna's needs over Mary's needs--would Mary still be understanding? I personally think the answer is no. In fact, she did force Anna to buy her birth control despite Anna not wanting anything to do with it in season 4.

 

The reason Edith doesn’t have a relationship like Mary does with Anna/Carson is because she didn’t have a personal maid (that we see) and none of the servants made over her like Carson did Mary. The only close relationship we've seen with Edith (outside of love interests) is with Rosamund and Marigold. That said, we never see Edith be cruel to any of the servants either, like Mary has dressed down both Anna and Carson before (I can’t remember the particular instance with Anna, but I remember her reminding Anna that she and Bates are still employees expected to do their jobs; she told Carson he should not have approached her after Matthew's death and was cold to him when he refused to uproot and follow her to her new home during season 2). The only time she's been kind to someone not personally connected to her is with Lavinia in the second season, but Lavinia isn't exactly an easy target if Matthew is deciding to marry her and Matthew takes over Downton. Edith also showed incredible kindness in caring for the wounded in season 2.

 

I don't judge Edith any harshly for her treatment of the lower class than I do all of them. They all do and have done this kind of thing whenever someone becomes a problem for them--throw some money at them or abuse their power over them (either at Downton or in the community at large) to get them out of the way.

 

As for Edith fearing repercussions Mary could cause by knowing about Marigold--it makes complete sense to me, and apparently to the other characters as well. Nearly all of the family have agreed. Violet talking to Mary about her lack of compassion at the end of 5, both Robert and Cora agreeing it's probably best not to tell Mary in this episode, Rosamund asking why Edith wants to stay at Downton only to be swiped at by Mary. Both Sybil and Matthew interceded to protect Edith from Mary and Robert over the years. The fact that even Robert apologized to Edith at the end of 5 for no particular reason seems to be building up the fact that Mary is still being cruel to Edith even after all these years.

 

I don't really agree that Edith "starts" things either.  This episode, Edith is talking casually to Robert, who brought the subject of the man wanting to speak with the manager of the estate up, about how there is nobody. She doesn't make the comment maliciously, and is probably referring to the fact that Tom is no longer there--only to be corrected snobbily by Mary, to which Edith rolls her eyes. Last episode Mary interrupts Edith's conversation with Robert to talk about the flat Edith inherited and throws out a remark during Edith's moment with Cora when they're getting out of the cars. Edith was reacting in all of these situations.

Edited January 12, 2016 by TheGreenKnight

[blackwing]

It would, if it was offered and both members of the couple accepted it.  Mrs. Hughes doesn't want to be married at the Abbey.  Carson knows that, and yet won't tell Lady Mary the truth about it.  And Mary, being the steamroller she is (sometimes to the good, admittedly), won't accept no for an answer, possibly because she hasn't been told the real reason for Mrs. Hughes' refusal.  I'd like to see the scene of Mary talking to Mrs. Hughes and finding out the actual situation; maybe then Mary would back off.

But Mary doesn't know how Mrs. Hughes feels.  Mary is very close to Carson, he has been at the house all of her life.  She is appalled that her father would offer their head butler to have the wedding in the dungeon, and makes what seems to me to be a very generous offer to have the wedding in the Great Hall.  She is not a mindreader, she can't be expected to know how strongly Mrs. Hughes feels about it when no one has really told her.  I don't think it's her job to find out.  I think it is up to Carson to explain it to her.  The problem is that I think Carson secretly would love nothing more than to be married in the great house in which he has spent so many years.  He has spent his life as a servant, making the rich folk comfortable, and for one day at least, it will be all about him.  I fully understand why he feels like that.  I think Mary feels like Carson is too embarrassed and that's why he wanted to decline out of graciousness, but there she was saying that he is like family, and will be treated with honor.

 

Regarding the whole constant Edith/Mary kerfluflle... I blame Edith for most of it.  Even at breakfast, when Mary was talking about being the estate agent, didn't Edith make a snip at her?  Edith never resists the opportunity to put Mary down, and vice versa.  I think back to when Sybil died, and Mary told Edith that they only had each other, and could they be kind to each other, and I think the conclusion was probably not, but they would try.  I don't see much trying.  I think there will always be sibling rivalry.  Mary will always think of Edith as this dowdy troll and Edith will always be jealous of the glamorous, first born Mary.

 

The haircut incident was just another in a long line of examples of how the family always cares more about Mary than they ever did about Edith.  It certainly wasn't Mary's fault she got a haircut when she didn't even know that Edith and Gregson were together.  And the fact that Edith is continuing to hide the issue of Marigold's maternity from Mary speaks volumes.