S31.E14: Lie, Cheat, And Steal / S31.E15: Live Reunion

[LanceM]

I don't know if this has been addressed about the money but I know the winner gets a million dollars.  How much do the 2nd and 3rd win?  What do they win if they get no votes like what happened last night?  Do they share 2nd and 3rd prize money or get nothing?

They combine the second and third place winnings and then split it in half.

Second place: $100,000

Third place: $75,000

Combined total of $175,000, so Tasha and Spencer each received $87,500

Edited December 17, 2015 by LanceM

[Ms Blue Jay]

Also, is Jeremy saying his second chance is all about his family and his new baby, really all that different from Spencer saying he's learning to be a real boy?  What is so offensive about the former that is not offensive about the latter.  They're both stories that might warm the heart.  I don't think it changed anyone's mind at all.  Second chancers are smart enough to vote for the best game by now.  If they're so stupid that a new baby makes them award Jeremy for the million, then he deserves it.  But I really, really don't think they are.  Except maybe Savage.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Ms Blue Jay

[sadiegirl1999]

The scene of Jeremy trying to get Keith's attention is probably one of my favorite Survivor scenes of all time.

 

 OMG so much this.

 

At one point, he *almost* broke the 4th wall too when he kind of put his hand up in exasperation.

 

It truly was the best scenes of the night/ever.

[Oscirus]

Absolutely right. Spencer outplayed Jeremy top to bottom and Jeremy had no thoughts that weren't given to him by Spencer. The only strategy Jeremy had was "Val, I wuvs you!!" Ridiculous.

It would be nice if once in a while juries would vote based on gameplay rather than emotions.

 

 After the second tribal,  Spencer spent the majority of his time pre-merge either in trouble  or not even in the know of any of the boots that happened afterwards. He damn there got blindsided twice on his way to the merge. And I love that somehow Jeremy was following Spencer's lead despite the fact that Jeremy and Spencer weren't aligned until at best, the Kelly boot.  

 

I think this jury was quietly one of the most bitter juries ever. It seems that in recent seasons juries have been much less bitter, voting for players like Natalie, Cochran and Tony who had outsmarted and blindsided many of them.

 

 

Didn't watch SJDS but as for the other two, one humiliated an old lady by having her pull out her teeth for a possible jury vote and made it blatantly obvious that they were purposely ignoring the third person.  Tony's jury had people laying down life lessons to Woo about not picking the right person to the end. Those two juries were way more bitter.

 

Stephen said that many on the jury thought Tasha was doing Jeremy's dirty work.  Implying that the jury knew that Jeremy didn't have to do the work himself.  So why was he rewarded with a landslide vote?

 

You just answered your own question. If another person is actively working to advance someone else's game, why should they get rewarded with a vote? Tasha really needed to differentiate her own game from Jeremy and Spencer's at the final tribal, but she failed to do so.

 

Regarding whether he could have won without the "my wife is pregnant" card.  That might very well have been the case.  But if that was the case, the fact that he felt the need to pull it out was just unnecessary.  In addition, the very reason why he didn't want to tell anyone about it in the first place is because he was afraid that people would use it against him.  "We have to get Jeremy out, because if the jury knows his wife is pregnant, he will be unbeatable."   So what does he do?  Get to the final tribal and then on the very last question, conveniently sob that his wife is pregnant  Thus proving that he wasn't above the shame of using it to garner sympathy.

 

So despite the fact that this information definitely would've been used against him, he wasn't allowed to use the information to benefit himself? Sounds like a bit of a double standard.

 

I didn't like Jeremy winning to be honest, I didn't think he did anything to deserve it other than enjoying Joe's wins in immunity challenges pre merge and following Spencer's lead after merge

 

 

He formed the power alliance, avoided even being targeted despite not being with his alliance during the second swap, came to the merge, maintained a working relationship with both alliances post merge, once again avoided being targeted until f6 despite the fact that he was named as one of the heads of the broliiance,  had people come to him when it came time to decide who was getting booted, managed to stay in power the majority of the time on the island. That's not even mentioning the two hidden idols he found.

 

Calling Spencer the mastermind when Jeremy listened to him for the Kimmi boot is laughable. Might as well call Tasha the mastermind as well since the Joe boot was clearly her idea.  Just because not every idea that was implemented wasn't Jeremy's doesn't diminish his case for winning.

[ratgirlagogo]

 

I really, really hope that Val being pregnant isn't what swayed the jury (and I don't think it was). I don't understand how someone choosing to have children makes someone more "deserving" than someone else. They need it more?

Of course that's how it will be perceived.  The odd thing here being that Kimmi, Keith, Kass, Ciera, Terry, Kelly Wiglesworth and I think Savage all have children also.

 

Which actually makes it maybe not so hard to understand why as parents they would vote for the expectant father in the final three. 

Edited December 17, 2015 by ratgirlagogo

[Alapaki]

Alliances are relatively permanent or at least have a facade of permanence.

Voting blocs are more openly temporary.

 

 

But I think that's just a difference of degree, not of kind.  And, in reality, the alliances shifted so much, IMO, because returning players always come into the game with pre-existing alliances.  This time the show threw more curve-balls at them to thwart that.  But rather than making that explicit, they're pushing this "evolution" bullshit on us.

 

As far as Goats, I don't think Tasha was destined to get no votes.  I think she demonstrated a lot of hustle, and was one of the players whose game was screwed-with more than almost any other by the game-twists.  

 

Ultimately I think every juror casts the vote that will make them feel the best about themselves.  Sometimes that means voting sentimentally.  Sometimes it means voting against someone else getting $1 million.  Sometimes it means voting for the player who eliminated you because, in a weird way, being eliminated by ultimate player makes your own elimination feel better.

 

Tasha's personality, though, tends to grate, I think.  She makes it easy for jurors to want to vote against her for spite.  

 

Likewise, Spencer comes across as a robot.  And the only thing worse than a non-human robot is a robot trying to act human.

[Ms Blue Jay]

So what if they all have children?  How does that make them more sympathetic?  In fact they should be thinking, so what Jeremy?  We all f---ing have kids here.  What makes yours more special than anyone else's?  We're going to reward the person in the final 3 with kids?  Really?

 

And I loved Spencer's disdain to Wiglesworth's final Tribal question.  Did Spencer ask a question in Cagayan, or did he just preach to the world about how Tony is the better player over Woo (which of course I agree with, he was just such a snot about it.)

 

To me to say that his kid reveal did anything other then move the few wavering votes to his side is to minimize how good Jeremy actually was. Hell even the kid reveal showed another part of his game in that he sat on that information for 39 days so that he wasn't a threat ( he spent his time in the game actually building a strategy in order to get to the end as opposed to using his unborn kid as currency).

 

I agree, it wasn't told to make the jury sympathetic or flip their vote.  It was told to make the jury marvel, wow, this guy made it all the way to the end, and he did so without drawing any attention to himself, his idols, what he was going through at home, and his deep passion about getting to the end and why.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Ms Blue Jay

[calico]

But he did play two immunity idols at perfect moments.

 

 

As long as Probst was pulling rules out of his ass during the 'unprecedented' TC l would have liked one of them to be that if there is more than one HII in play then only the first one played counts.  I doubt Jeremy had any intention of playing his until Kelley pulled out hers since he was convinced Kimmi wasn't going to flip despite Spencer's accurate assessment of the situation.  These HII have become really problematic IMO.  It's way too easy to find them, and every season it makes me suspicious when [what appears to me to be] the producer pick manages to stumble across them.  Sometimes more than once!  I'd like to see them go back to just providing clues that can't be figured out in 5 seconds and that need some stealth to procure.  And then once the HIIs are played that's it - no more endless recycling.  The HIIs have swallowed up this game. 

[fishcakes]

I'm glad Jeremy won, but I wish Spencer had picked up a few votes because I think he played a good game too and certainly better than Tasha's. Jeremy's strong social game was just too much to overcome. I didn't feel like his FTC performance was manipulative (for manipulative, I would point to Jaclyn's FTC speech on San Juan del Sur, which was 10% about the game and 90%, "I should win because I don't have a uterus"). On the contrary, I think it was a genuine outpouring of emotion from him and that's what people responded to. Hell, if Spencer had been able to vote, I think even he would have voted for Jeremy after that.

 

I never like the pick a number question. It comes across to me as bitter and disrespectful, and and I seriously doubt that the person asking it uses it to decide who to vote for. But I especially disliked it last night because Wiglesworth seems to believe it was the deciding factor in her losing a million dollars. Greg Buis has more than once said that he was voting for Rich no matter what. Maybe she really hasn't come to terms with her loss yet.

 

When Jeff was talking to Spencer about his regrets this season, what was the deal with Kelley Wentworth?  They cut to her with a look on her face and swishing her hair.

 

I'm guessing that Kelley is always making a face and swishing her hair. I've tried to overcome my dislike of her because she really is a very good player and during the reunion, I was thinking, oh, she's not so bad when she's out of the game. But then Jeff commented on Keith being emotional about Kimmi, and Kelley had to jump in with, "WE'RE ALL EMOTIONAL. WE'VE ALL BEEN EMOTIONAL ALL DAY," and all my dislike for her came rushing back because God forbid someone stop paying attention to her for five minutes. That moment was about Keith and Kimmi; why she had to start yelling over Keith is just more of her relentless camera mugging. She's a great player and a fan favorite so I know we're going to see her and her Nellie Oleson face for a third time, but FFS I wish she'd give it a rest.

 

I think Spencer and Tasha deserve some credit.  Granted Jeremy had an idol, but they essentially saved the alliance and him by noticing Kimmi's move.  Jeremy didn't want to believe it, but they were right. 

 

I think Kimmi also deserves some credit. Jeremy trusting her so completely is the payoff for her building loyalty with him from early on, cemented by the Monica vote, which she was so lambasted for. And I know this is where people come in and say, "well, if she'd voted off Spencer instead of Monica, then he wouldn't have been able to out her to Jeremy." Which is true, but also incorrectly assumes that everything else stays the same. If Spencer had gone instead of Monica, that would have changed the whole dynamic of the game. It doesn't mean that Monica would have gotten to the end, and maybe it means Kimmi wouldn't have gotten as far as she did. I think Kimmi played a good game from the beginning, and if she'd made no move against Jeremy at the end, she probably would have gone to at least F4 and maybe F3. And had she been a little more subtle in talking to Kelley and Keith, she definitely could have gotten to F3. I doubt she would have won in either case, but she played a solid, under-the-radar game and made it a lot farther than anyone expected her to.

 

Even better than Jeremy trying to get Keith's attention was Keith looking startled and a little frightened when he noticed.

 

Such a great, fun season. But here's hoping we never again have to see Savage, Abi, Tasha, or Jeff's Tony Manero hairdo again.

Edited December 17, 2015 by fishcakes

[Miss Scarlet]

Heck, BRob never changed in all the seasons he played. That didn't stop Probst from brining him back and bringing him back until he finally found the right combination of idiot newbies and a steady diet of the kind of ICs that BRob likes best. The jury didn't care that he was the same box of rocks as he was his first season.

Very true. People like to claim that Parvati had a lot of personal growth in the seasons she played, but she didn't. Strategic growth, maybe. Social and personal growth? No. The only difference between Cook Islands and her other season is that she got a better edit because her placement was different. If she hadn't gone to the end both times I think more Cook Islands type moments would have been edited in. There was a clip from H vs. V where she whines and cries at the merge about how no one was paying attention to her. It was very Cooks Islands Parvati-esque. I'm sure there were moments like that in Micronesia too that just weren't included in the show.

 

I think it's interesting that Jeremy and Spencer got a ton of airtime this season, but Tasha got comparatively little. She finished in the same place as Spencer. She should have gotten similar airtime. I feel like there were whole episodes after the merge where we heard almost nothing from her. And I don't even particularly like her.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Miss Scarlet

[Miss Scarlet]

 

I thought Jeremy's BEST moment in the reunion was when he interrupted Stephen's motormouth rant about golden boy Joe - to point out the obvious.  JEREMY was the golden boy of this season that Stephen had handed everything to, AGAIN.  Same goes for Spencer - no wonder he stopped watching the season.  All these strategic masterminds and they all focused on the WRONG golden boy.

I thought their blindspot about this was really interesting. I wonder why that was. Is it because Joe is younger, single and wins every challenge and Jeremy is a bit older, a family man and good at challenges, but not amazing at them? Or is it because Joe has that white-bred All-American image?

 

I don't fully buy Spencer's monologues about needing to have emotions. I think he's a bit socially inept and maybe not the best at expressing them, but I think a lot of them was him trying to repackage those issues into something that sounded cooler and more "badass". 

[Neerbeena]

 

I'm not so sure. Kimmi was really upset with him, she looked like she was crying as soon as she sat down. But she is a mom, so I bet she just gave him her vote because of the pregnant card.

 

Kimmi was a lock for a Jeremy vote even without the pregnant card.  Not only was she his number one ally from the start, I think they became pretty good friends, which was why Jeremy couldn't believe she would try to vote him out.

 

I was surprised at the Spencer shut out, but see now how much better Jeremy's social game was than his.  It definitely would have been a closer vote with Wentworth at final three.  She had Abi, Ciera for sure, possibly Joe and maybe Keith, but I still think Jeremy would have won.

[MissEwa]

The final 5 tribal council was insane, as everyone else pointed out (it was fun to read the "live" reactions from all y'alls!) - I too was confused by the fact that if no concencus was reached, Kimmi and Tasha would be immune and Keith would be voted out. I don't remember this rule at all. I assumed they'd go to rocks, but I guess not. 

 

 

I was not surprised Tasha didn't get votes. She played a great game, but the way she played is usually not valued with the jury members. 

 

They would have gone to rocks but the rock draw is between the people who didn't get any votes, and all of them but Keith were immune due to idols/IC wins, so Keith is the only one drawing rocks. I've never seen the Paschal season but I think this is what happened to him, and it's why it changed to fire-making at F4? This was at F6 but idols meant basically the same outcome. 

 

IMO most of Tasha's actual moves were pre-merge - getting Abi to flip and save her and Savage on Angkor. Unless we missed a bit of FTC where she discussed them, only Only Abi and Savage would have known - Abi at least was never going to vote for her and Savage... is Savage. This is why I don't think it was a good FTC performance. She had things to point to but instead she chose to give these vague condescending answers about corporate America or point to her pre-game alliance. 

In Tasha's case, I think she just didn't care (possibly because there was no scenario she could have won, although I think she would have at least gotten votes against some combination of Keith, Kimmi, or Abi).

 

In Spencer's case, I think it was hubris. He just couldn't believe that everyone wouldn't see him as the smartest guy in the room. But what he didn't realize is that what everyone saw instead is that Spencer thought of himself as the smartest guy in the room, who just couldn't listen to their warnings about what would happen.

 

I think Tasha cared. I think in a way Tasha and Spencer had similar a similar problem - they both thought they were the smartest people in the room. After the F4 TC they both said the same thing about forming the best relationships to get themselves there and I think they both genuinely thought it was their great gameplay that got them there and would get them votes. I almost wonder if being on the 'brains' tribe in their first season hurt them - they let that go to their heads.

[meep.meep]

Yes that was one of the original rules of Survivor in which they thankfully changed. It was first used in Australia where Jeff Varner was voted out because Debb Eaton at the first tribal council randomly threw a vote his way

 

No, he was voted out because Kimmi blabbed about the vote he had received to Tina who then knew who to target.  

 

I loved Probst diagramming the tribal council like it was a football play.  I wonder if the Rules of Survivor really cover two idols being played in the same TC?

 

Too bad we missed the final 3's statements to the jury.   Those often seem to influence the type of questions that the jury asks.  Guess we will never know.

[tinypeanut]

I wanted a Spencer or Jeremy win so I was happy with the outcome.

 

A few things that really perturbed me was the bitter jury.  What was with Savage, Cierra, Abi and Wentworth with all the smug looks and eye rolls this season?  I will even throw in Kass.  They were playing a game and acting like they were 10 years old.  I had so more respect for the other players who could control their facial expressions.

Edited December 17, 2015 by tinypeanut

[LanceM]

I wanted a Spencer or Jeremy win so I was happy with the outcome.

 

A few things that really perturbed me was the bitter jury.  What was with Savage, Cierra, Abi and Wentworth with all the smug looks and eye rolls this season?  I will even through in Kass.  They were playing a game and acting like they were 10 years old.  I had so more respect for the other players who could control their facial expressions.

The jury doesn't. Stephen has said that Kelley was masterfully playing for the jury a lot of which had to do with her facial expressions and making eye contact with them during tribal council. What some may see as "mugging for the camera", whatever that means, the players out there see something completely different. In this case good jury management.

Edited December 17, 2015 by LanceM

[How Bout That]

 

They would have gone to rocks but the rock draw is between the people who didn't get any votes, and all of them but Keith were immune due to idols/IC wins, so Keith is the only one drawing rocks. I've never seen the Paschal season but I think this is what happened to him, and it's why it changed to fire-making at F4? This was at F6 but idols meant basically the same outcome. 

 

IMO most of Tasha's actual moves were pre-merge - getting Abi to flip and save her and Savage on Angkor. Unless we missed a bit of FTC where she discussed them, only Only Abi and Savage would have known - Abi at least was never going to vote for her and Savage... is Savage. This is why I don't think it was a good FTC performance. She had things to point to but instead she chose to give these vague condescending answers about corporate America or point to her pre-game alliance.

 

 

I wonder if they would apply these rules in the event of a tie at final tribal council.

[Special K]

I don't think it was the fact of Val being pregnant that impressed everyone so much.  I think it was the fact that Jeremy kept it secret, even though he was "bugging out."  The. Entire. Time.  And that they were there when Val came and told him he was having a boy, and still he kept it secret and kept his head in the game.  They might have thought before that Jeremy was the coolest, smoothest, easiest-going dude to ever play Survivor so well, but they didn't realize that he was aching inside and in the midst of this huge internal struggle.

 

That is impressive, I think, and I think it was that self-control that handed him the vote.

 

Oh, and they hated Tasha and thought Spencer was a punk.  ;)

[MissEwa]

I wonder if they would apply these rules in the event of a tie at final tribal council.

Do you mean FTC - if the jury votes result in a tie? Or in the F4 TC? In the F4 TC if it's a tie the two people with votes go to a fire-making challenge. Going to rocks at F4 would mean that the person who didn't win immunity and didn't get any votes would automatically go home, which is why they don't do it.

No-one knows for sure what happens if there's a tie at FTC as it's never happened (in Micronesia (?) Jeff addressed the possibility  of a tie before reading the votes by holding up an envelope with what he said was the tie-breaker in it, but it wasn't needed). 

[legaleagle53]

It's supposed to be "Outwit, Outplay, Outlast." not outschmooze.

 

Russell Hantz, is that you?

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Bold Strategy And Ball-Savviness Close Out Survivor 31
Before Survivor closes the book on Season 31 and crowns a new winner, it’s got at least one more totally crazypants Tribal Council to throw at us. And, of course, some balls.

[Paws]

Or is it because Joe has that white-bred All-American image?

What's funny is that except for the color of his skin, it's Jeremy who has the white bred all American image. Boston Forefighter, family man, funny, and kind. Joe has a man bun and does yoga. That's not particularly white-bread.

[survivinmt]

Jeremy keeping his 3rd child a secret was not just so he could pull it out at FTC but so that he didn't get voted out far in advance of FTC for that very reason. Same reason people vote out people with disabilities. He knew he HAD to keep it a secret. I just kept thinking how ironic it would be if Tasha and/or Spencer find out later in life that they have any kind of fertility problems that require large amounts of money to be able to concieve when Jeremy worked the story of his healthy thriviing family into a winning strategy.

 

I really think Kelley should have won, but oh well.

[Miss Scarlet]

How can Savage not be embarrassed about himself? How can someone lack so much self-awareness? I get dizzy trying to figure it out.

[slowpoked]

Fishbach just put up the finale People blog. Lots of interesting insights, especially from how the jury voted and how the jury looked at the finalists:

 

 

Had Wentworth made the final tribal council, however, she could have beaten anybody – maybe even Jeremy. She had a résumé with two big idol plays and two immunity wins. Even more importantly, she had played from the bottom. The jury always loves an underdog. And, not for nothing, Wentworth was just nice to people. Kindness and decency can't be overvalued in any part of life – and they certainly count for a lot in a game as brutal as Survivor. Counting the votes now, my guess is Wentworth would have won Kass, Ciera, Abi, Kimmi, Joe and Keith. Jeremy would likely have taken Savage, Wigles, me, and Spencer – in spite of what Spencer claimed at the final elimination. Who knows how the jury would have reacted to Jeremy's big news in that matchup. Jeremy made the right move in choosing to vote her out.

 

 

 

Ultimately, Spencer just flipped too much. He played the middle when he very well could have picked a side. By being allies with everybody, he ensured that almost everyone on the jury felt betrayed by him. His argument that he was a lone wolf who had to scavenge for numbers was partially undone by Tasha, who claimed they had been working together from the start. Perhaps it seems obvious in retrospect, that the two Brains from Cagayan were so in-sync, but pre-game alliances were a major taboo for the jury.

 

 

Spencer's greatest mistake may have been the fact that he didn't make a move on the game's biggest jury threats. After the midgame threatpocalypse ended with Joe's ouster, Spencer stopped targeting the game's strategic menaces. In a confounding series of votes, he sent home Abi then Kimmi then Keith – leaving his two biggest enemies, Wentworth and Jeremy, untouched

Edited December 17, 2015 by slowpoked

[Vicky8675309]

I use to like Kelley but started going off her toward the later part of the season due to her OTT facial expressions** and looking/sounding vaguely arrogant. Why is she considered so great of a player? She just lucked into two hidden immunity idols and played them well. What did she do that required any skill other than being lucky with idols (not a skill)? Her social game wasn't great--no one wanted to play with her even back with there were tons of people left--all she had were Ciera and by default Kass & Abi. Later on she got Keith by default and briefly Kimmi as a voting bloc which got her (kimmi) out of the game. Poor social game since no one wanted to play with her and it was not due to her being a threat.

Poor strategic game but we couldn't never see her strategic potential since she never had the numbers to implement a strategy other than hidden immunity idols. I guess she scrambled for a few tribal councils where bigger threats were removed. She won a few immunity necklaces but apparently that doesn't mean shit unless you are Mike since juries don't care about those and if you need them to stay in the game then apparently your social game sucks (so why even have immunity necklaces since only social games matter to bitter juries). I like a mix of social, strategy and game play in my winners. I was ok with mike but too much focus on immunity wins, jeremy relied on social only….give me more Natalies and Cochrans who had great mixes of attributes.

**disclaimer: I liked her OTT behavior and expression with the savage ousting but I thought it was just going to be a one time celebration rather then a daily event (she even did it at the reunion so it wasn't just playing to the jury).

Edited December 17, 2015 by Vicky8675309

[violet and green]

**disclaimer: I liked her OTT behavior and expression with the savage ousting but I thought it was just going to be a one time celebration rather then a daily event (she even did it at the reunion so it wasn't just playing to the jury).

 

Kind of reminded me of a schtick from one of the queens on Ru Paul's Drag Race. (They would have done it better.) But she seems to have it stuck in her mind that she is just totally adorbs. When she interrupted Keith's moment to draw the attention back to her, flapping her hair around and guffawing... No, just no.

 

I didn't mind the way she played. Dull girl, but intense focus. Good on her. It was all the animated TH's and the mugging for the jury and the cameras... Oh my lord. The only good thing about Jeremy winning, for me, is that Kelley didn't win. :)

[BigRedCheese]

 

BRob never changed in all the seasons he played.

 

He did a little, in his first season, he (along with Sean) was a slacker that never wanted to do any work, by the time he won, he was the one complaining about the young slackers not working hard enough.

[KimberStormer]

For those asking the (bizarre) question "what did Jeremy even do?" here's a good example of the subtlety of his amazing play, from Spencer's interview with Gordon Holmes:

 

Holmes: That final four Tribal really hurt you when you told Jeremy that you’d vote for Kelley to win and try to get other people to join you. What happened that got you worked up enough to make that claim?
Bledsoe: I think it was Jeremy playing the game well. I think he saw that I could only hurt  myself by talking. And, he made it seem like he was up in the air more than I thought he was previously. I got up in my own head and wondered if I was being voted out. I thought, I might be hurting myself, but I’d be kicking myself more for not saying those things in the moment and then being voted out. It was time number 9,471 that I zigged when I should have zagged.

 

By making it seem like he was considering Kelley, Jeremy caused that big explosion from Spencer.  If he had appeared perfectly content to vote out Kelley, Spencer wouldn't have overplayed his hand there.  And I think that's just brilliant Survivor play.  Makes Jeremy look like he's in total control, and Spencer look like he's begging and/or "bullying" for his life out there.  Without anything so obvious that people would think, "Oh well he's just playing to the jury".

 

I don't think it's going to matter for the people who dislike Kelley but I thought her "we're all emotional, Jeff" thing was an attempt to rescue Keith, who seemed uncomfortable and embarassed, and as we saw with his reward win is not the best at extempore speaking, plus he apparently had lost his voice prior to the show.  I myself kept thinking "leave Keith alone, Jeff, he's clearly not happy being grilled!"

[Guest]

I wondered if they edited out Jeremy telling Spencer to chill when he was freaking out.  That was smart of him not to.  But we felt like Jeremy never had any plan to take Kelley.  It would've been stupid.  And why butter up Spencer when he's not going to be a juror?   Let him talk himself right into his grave, which he did.  

[Wings]

I want a full hour of reunion!  ****stomps feet****  

[Guest]

I like this line from the end of Stephen's People blog:

 

And if you have plans to go on Survivor in the future, remember: Before you leave home, learn to make fire, practice untying knots and impregnate a loved one.

 

[blackwing]

I don't care much for Stephen's analysis.  He's a Survivor nerd who got beat at his own game, so I'm not sure what kind of qualifications he has for criticising the games of Spencer and Tasha.  They outlasted him.  

 

"Pre-game alliances were a major taboo with the jury."  What?!?!?!  So because they thought that Spencer and Tasha had a pre-game alliance, that was a strike against them?  Didn't EVERYONE have a pre-game alliance?  It's just hypocritical of the jury.  Spencer and Tasha's pre-game alliance is a negative, but of course all the pre-game alliances that each of the jury members had were perfectly kosher.

 

"Spencer stopped targeting the game's strategic menaces. In a confounding series of votes, he sent home Abi then Kimmi then Keith – leaving his two biggest enemies, Wentworth and Jeremy, untouched."  I don't think it was purely Spencer's decision to send home Abi.  Tasha wanted her out too.  They said she was unreliable, and she was.  As far as the Kimmi ouster, they tried to send Kelley home, but she had an idol.  And then there is Kelley vs. Keith... honestly I don't think they had a good choice.  Kelley was well-liked by the jurors and was a threat.  But Keith was just as much of a threat.  He proved that he was good in challenges and I think the jury would have voted for him as well to win.  They wouldn't care that he had no social game, he would just be an option that wasn't the alliance that took them down.

 

Stephen is irritating.  He is talking for the sake of talking, and if anyone acts like they have to be the Smartest Person in the Room, it's him.

[Skeeter22]

Stephen went to the end and got zero votes in Tocantins. If there is anyone who is qualified to comment on Spencer's game, it's him.

[Miss Scarlet]

Kind of reminded me of a schtick from one of the queens on Ru Paul's Drag Race. (They would have done it better.) But she seems to have it stuck in her mind that she is just totally adorbs. When she interrupted Keith's moment to draw the attention back to her, flapping her hair around and guffawing... No, just no.

 

I didn't mind the way she played. Dull girl, but intense focus. Good on her. It was all the animated TH's and the mugging for the jury and the cameras... Oh my lord. The only good thing about Jeremy winning, for me, is that Kelley didn't win. :)

I thought Kelley was kind of affected this season compared to SJDS. But I think the reason is because she got a lot of flak online for being "boring" during that season. I think it upset her and she was trying to compensate for it. I don't blame her for that. Dealing with online hate can't be easy. 

What's funny is that except for the color of his skin, it's Jeremy who has the white bred all American image. Boston Forefighter, family man, funny, and kind. Joe has a man bun and does yoga. That's not particularly white-bread.

He really does and actually Ciera referred to him as All-American in her interview with Gordon Holmes. So it is weird that other players didn't see it, or at least not as much as they did with Joe.

[Wandering Snark]

The scene of Jeremy trying to get Keith's attention is probably one of my favorite Survivor scenes of all time.

 

Seriously, my favorite OF ALL TIME.  Somebody, pretty please make a gif of that!

I personally love the moment that Keith snaps back to reality... and kind of shakes his head before he realizes where he is or something. Classic.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Here's the Jeremy Keith video .  If someone can embed it or teach me how?

 

https://imgur.com/FpYNN6k

Edited December 18, 2015 by Ms Blue Jay

[needschocolate]

At first I thought Jeremy's answer to the "How have you changed for your second chance?" question silly - all he said was I am doing it for my family, but I am pretty sure he wanted to win for his family the first time too.  Then it eventually dawned on me that what he changed was that the first time, he wore his emotions on his sleeve, but the second time he didn't.  He kept his emotions so close that he didn't even tell anyone that Val was expecting and that it would be a boy.  I don't know how much this meant to any of the jury - they may have given him a sympathy vote, or they may have seen it a "Wow, Jeremy, I can't believe you were able to contain yourself. You made more of your second chance than I thought," or, maybe, he was a sure thing before he ever gave that answer.
 

Despite all his talk, Spencer hardly changed a bit from his first season.  His threats to Jeremy at TC4 spoke volumes about that.  I've never found Spence a compelling person in Survivor.  Maybe it's his young age and relative lack of maturity.

 
I think Spencer believes he changed, but the only change, IMO, is that he has realized that he is supposed to treat the other players as people, not chess pieces, but he doesn't really know what that means or how to do it.  When he dealt with other people, he came off as insincere to me - "Look how much I have grown - I am pretended to care about you!"
 

The first bunch of seasons that is the way the voting worked. Varner went home because he had the most votes cast for after a tie. They changed to rocks in season 4, Marquesas.

 
I liked the 'most votes tie breaker" - it adds another level of strategy.
  

I didn't like Jeremy winning to be honest, I didn't think he did anything to deserve it other than enjoying Joe's wins in immunity challenges pre merge and I was stunned to see Jeremy received all ten votes. I mean, we go through all this great season talking about amazing moves and worthy players bla bla, and what it comes down to is a sympathy vote? Spencer was on the bottom half of the game, he scrumbled to take a breath and he survived, he won three immunity challenges, he was the strategist behind everything and he gets zero votes? Tragic, in my opinion. I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

 
Jeremy getting all ten votes doesn't mean that the jury thought that Jeremy was so much better than Spencer or Tasha, it could mean that each of them thought that Jeremy was a little bit better than the other two.  The Jury doesn't sit around and apportion 10 votes ("Well Jeremy was the best, we will give him 5 votes, but Spencer did a few good things, let's give him 3, and Tasha made the best rice, so we will give her the other 2 votes), each jury member votes for themselves.
 

Ultimately, best thing about the conclusion of this season is that its' hopefully the last time I hear the phrase "voting bloc" again!!!!!!  Because no one has yet to explain how that is different from an alliance, or sub-alliance.

 

As others have commented, that it is a matter or permanence - if you are in an alliance, you vote with your alliance until you decide to flip.  A voting block is just agreeing to vote with some players for that vote only.  The members of a voting block may change every vote, thememebers of an alliance don't. I just wanted to add, that if you vote against your alliance, you are no longer part of that alliance.  You can't vote against your voting block, because you aren't "with" a voting block, there is nothing to be against.  If you vote differently from a voting block it is because you are in a different voting block.  

 

IMO, what they should have done is what I've always said that people in that position should do:  Announce that you have a HII.  Now both Keith and Kelly are safe (of so Jeremy, Tasha and Spencer would think) and so one of the Jeremy/Tasha/Spencer alliance would be voted out.  Then you tell them "either you decide which of you is going home, or we do."

 
 However, if you really do have an idol, it is generally better to keep it a secret so that everyone votes and you play it and make votes not count.  If people know you have one, then they either target someone else, or split the votes so you will go home if you don't play it.  So, if you announce having an idol, then you may cause suspicion that it isn't real, because you wouldn't announce it if it were real. 

[KimberStormer]

needschocolate, on 17 Dec 2015 - 5:24 PM, said:

 However, if you really do have an idol, it is generally better to keep it a secret so that everyone votes and you play it and make votes not count.  If people know you have one, then they either target someone else, or split the votes so you will go home if you don't play it.  So, if you announce having an idol, then you may cause suspicion that it isn't real, because you wouldn't announce it if it were real. 

 

Really depends, though.  When Malcolm pulled out idols enough to make all 3 Amigos safe, it could really have broken things up if only they didn't say they were voting for Phillip.  Hiding them would not have made that possible.  This would have been like that--Kelley is immune, Keith is (not actually, but supposedly) immune, so that alliance of 3 has to vote out one of their own.  Would they have the courage to go vote Keith anyway?  Very hard decision to make.

 

Keith's best play there would have been to pull it out and shown it off before the votes.  I don't want to blame Keith too hard for that, but it's what he should have done.  I can't imagine how that felt for Kelley, because it was a good plan--certainly a long shot, but a very good plan (and would have looked absolutely spectacular for the jury...you could see how much they were hoping for her and Keith to pull something out at the last minute yet again.)  I think, had that plan worked, Kelley would have totally destroyed at FTC no matter who she was up against, because it would be such a big showy awesome move that would be extremely fresh in their minds.

[peachmangosteen]

Regarding whether he could have won without the "my wife is pregnant" card.  That might very well have been the case.  But if that was the case, the fact that he felt the need to pull it out was just unnecessary. 

 

Yea, for me the fact that it obviously didn't matter makes it worse.

 

Spencer wasn't a bully.  He was just a dick.

 

LMAO! So beautifully succinct.

 

A few things that really perturbed me was the bitter jury.  What was with Savage, Cierra, Abi and Wentworth with all the smug looks and eye rolls this season?  I will even throw in Kass.  They were playing a game and acting like they were 10 years old.  I had so more respect for the other players who could control their facial expressions.

 

And what about Jeremy's behavior when Kimmi voted against him? That was beyond the pale imo and I thought Jeremy was better than that.

[Bryce Lynch]

After the second tribal, Spencer spent the majority of his time pre-merge either in trouble or not even in the know of any of the boots that happened afterwards. He damn there got blindsided twice on his way to the merge. And I love that somehow Jeremy was following Spencer's lead despite the fact that Jeremy and Spencer weren't aligned until at best, the Kelly boot.

Didn't watch SJDS but as for the other two, one humiliated an old lady by having her pull out her teeth for a possible jury vote and made it blatantly obvious that they were purposely ignoring the third person. Tony's jury had people laying down life lessons to Woo about not picking the right person to the end. Those two juries were way more bitter.

You just answered your own question. If another person is actively working to advance someone else's game, why should they get rewarded with a vote? Tasha really needed to differentiate her own game from Jeremy and Spencer's at the final tribal, but she failed to do so.

So despite the fact that this information definitely would've been used against him, he wasn't allowed to use the information to benefit himself? Sounds like a bit of a double standard.

He formed the power alliance, avoided even being targeted despite not being with his alliance during the second swap, came to the merge, maintained a working relationship with both alliances post merge, once again avoided being targeted until f6 despite the fact that he was named as one of the heads of the broliiance, had people come to him when it came time to decide who was getting booted, managed to stay in power the majority of the time on the island. That's not even mentioning the two hidden idols he found.

Calling Spencer the mastermind when Jeremy listened to him for the Kimmi boot is laughable. Might as well call Tasha the mastermind as well since the Joe boot was clearly her idea. Just because not every idea that was implemented wasn't Jeremy's doesn't diminish his case for winning.

When I say a jury is bitter, I mean they voted based upon bitterness. Tony, Cochran and Natalie's juries all voted for the player who played the best game, despite being blindsided and and deceived by the winners.

Dawn totally deserved what Brenda did to her at FTC. Brenda had been helping Dawn through her emotional problems the entire season.

Then, when Dawn lost her retainer in the water, she cried for Brenda to come and find it for her, saying she would quit the game if she couldn't find it. After Brenda found it, she basically declared her undying loyalty to her.

Then, Brenda won the family reward challenge and chose Dawn to go with her. When Brenda agreed to sacrifice her reward (and unfortunately Dawn's) of a family bbq so the other 4 players could go instead Dawn became furious (so mad she "felt like spitting") and turned on Brenda.

She tried to trick Brenda into dropping out of the next immunity challenge so she could win and it seemed like Brenda didn't hold out as long as she could.

Then she arranged a blindside of Brenda that didn't even really help her own chances of winning as she was basically a goat.

She cost her "dear friend" $1 million out of pure spite.

[Ms Blue Jay]

And what about Jeremy's behavior when Kimmi voted against him? That was beyond the pale imo and I thought Jeremy was better than that.

 

And what about it?  Jeremy thought Kimmi was loyal to him as he had always been to her.  And then suddenly, she wasn't. Jeremy had no idea it was even Kimmie who had been disloyal until it was all figured out.  That's why he said "Who voted for me?"  Then when it was figured out , he said something to the effect of "Kimmie?  Okay Kimmie.  Okay.  Okay.  Shame on you."  Or something like that.  (?) He wasn't mad at Keith or Kelley for voting for him.  He wouldn't be mad at Ciera, or Abi for voting for him.  He was hurt that Kimmie voted for him.  One of his allies who had always stayed loyal to him, and that he had stayed loyal to, too.  It would be like if Stephen or Tasha voted for him.  It would be out of left field, and unexpected.

 

It's not like he called her a nasty name or said anything hurtful or attacked the woman.   He reacted emotionally!   It's very easy to say Never Take a Vote Personally, but hey, these are human beings.  In a game where you make promises, then are lied to, are loyal to some, not to others, then change your loyalties - guess what!  People are going to get hurt.  Expectations are had and then broken!  It's the name of the game.  No one is a robot.  Spencer was more emotional throughout this game than Jeremy.

 

"Voting Bloc Season" or not, Jeremy is a man who is about his alliance.   He stuck to his alliance from beginning to end, even though Spencer kind of jiggled his way in there.  Jeremy never voted against Tasha, Stephen, Spencer, or Kimmie.  He actually blew me away in that tribal where he told Keith and Kelley to vote for Spencer.  And then he didn't vote Spencer along with them.  Someone smarter than me pointed out upthread that there was no point to, but wow.  I actually thought he was going to do it out of desperation that he had been had by K & K!  

 

I don't even see it as an over the top reaction at all.  It's a very medium reaction to a huge surprise.  I still don't even get what is remotely terrible about the reaction.    And I'm not even going to give her major credit for snowing him, though I do give credit to Tasha and Spencer for getting it.  So what..... Jeremy still won anyways !  

Edited December 18, 2015 by Ms Blue Jay

[peachmangosteen]

He came off terribly to me there. I realize he was emotional, but so were all the other people this season (and every season) who rolled their eyes or clapped when Joe lost or whatever, yet those people got so much shit online for it. Why is Jeremy allowed to have an OTT emotional reaction, but no one else is?

[Bryce Lynch]

Yea, for me the fact that it obviously didn't matter makes it worse.

LMAO! So beautifully succinct.

And what about Jeremy's behavior when Kimmi voted against him? That was beyond the pale imo and I thought Jeremy was better than that.

I was fine with Jeremy's reaction to Kimmi. He had been defending her against Tasha and Spencer's accusations that she was a rat.

Then he had a heart to heart with Kimmi and she lied through her teeth and gave him the fake crying routine, which she laughed about in a confessional.

Lying is part of the game, but when you get busted there are consequences.

I do think the fact that she so easily deceived Jeremy...and only Jeremy should have hurt him with the jury, though.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Bryce Lynch

[peachmangosteen]

I would think Jeremy was more mature than to react so aggressively to someone lying to him in a game. Especially since I'm sure he did his fair share of lying, too.

 

I might be harping on this too much because Kelley got so much shit for her emotional responses, particularly in the Joe boot ep, and like I still can not figure out why and then Jeremy has what I saw as a very OTT emotional reaction and no one even brings it up.

 

With all this being said, I'm not mad at Jeremy's win. He played a fine game.

[violet and green]

I see nothing wrong with emotional reactions. And it was an age-appropriate reaction.

 

If he'd gone all mean Valley Girl, on the other hand...

[Bryce Lynch]

I would think Jeremy was more mature than to react so aggressively to someone lying to him in a game. Especially since I'm sure he did his fair share of lying, too.

I might be harping on this too much because Kelley got so much shit for her emotional responses, particularly in the Joe boot ep, and like I still can not figure out why and then Jeremy has what I saw as a very OTT emotional reaction and no one even brings it up.

With all this being said, I'm not mad at Jeremy's win. He played a fine game.

Jeremy did not act "aggressively". He said, "OK, OK, boom." Then he wagged his finger and sucked his teeth (as in "Shame on you") and said "Kimmi, Kimmi, Kimmi. So disappointed, so, so disappointed in you."

[Ms Blue Jay]

Yeah, he acted like a geeky father, which is probably what he is.

[willpwr]

And then he skipped along to vote her off... very age appropriate reaction.

I like Jeremy but it wasn't his best moment.

I'm glad he won, though. Finally, one of my picks wins! I'd have preferred my other pick but overall pretty pleased with this season.

One other thing, if Kimmi feels like Spencer bullied her then he bullied her, it's about how she felt not how we decide she should feel based on the very little we were shown of a tribal that probably lasted hours. As for him bullying Jeremy, since Jeremy never made that claim, think it's pretty safe to say based on Jeremy's little wink that he realized he had his second goat there and he'd just let Spencer continue to bury himself.

Edited December 18, 2015 by willpwr

[blackwing]

And what about it?  Jeremy thought Kimmi was loyal to him as he had always been to her.  And then suddenly, she wasn't. Jeremy had no idea it was even Kimmie who had been disloyal until it was all figured out.  That's why he said "Who voted for me?"  Then when it was figured out , he said something to the effect of "Kimmie?  Okay Kimmie.  Okay.  Okay.  Shame on you."  Or something like that.  (?) He wasn't mad at Keith or Kelley for voting for him.  He wouldn't be mad at Ciera, or Abi for voting for him.  He was hurt that Kimmie voted for him.  One of his allies who had always stayed loyal to him, and that he had stayed loyal to, too.  It would be like if Stephen or Tasha voted for him.  It would be out of left field, and unexpected.

 

It's not like he called her a nasty name or said anything hurtful or attacked the woman.   He reacted emotionally!   It's very easy to say Never Take a Vote Personally, but hey, these are human beings.  In a game where you make promises, then are lied to, are loyal to some, not to others, then change your loyalties - guess what!  People are going to get hurt.  Expectations are had and then broken!  It's the name of the game.  No one is a robot.  Spencer was more emotional throughout this game than Jeremy.

 

"Voting Bloc Season" or not, Jeremy is a man who is about his alliance.   He stuck to his alliance from beginning to end, even though Spencer kind of jiggled his way in there.  Jeremy never voted against Tasha, Stephen, Spencer, or Kimmie.  He actually blew me away in that tribal where he told Keith and Kelley to vote for Spencer.  And then he didn't vote Spencer along with them.  Someone smarter than me pointed out upthread that there was no point to, but wow.  I actually thought he was going to do it out of desperation that he had been had by K & K!  

 

I don't even see it as an over the top reaction at all.  It's a very medium reaction to a huge surprise.  I still don't even get what is remotely terrible about the reaction.    And I'm not even going to give her major credit for snowing him, though I do give credit to Tasha and Spencer for getting it.  So what..... Jeremy still won anyways !  

 

To me, his whole attitude reeked of entitlement.  Yes, he and Kimmi had been allied since the beginning.  But as she said later, she felt that Spencer came in and supplanted her.  He can deny it all he wants, but I saw Jeremy, Spencer and Tasha repeatedly talk about them being the Final Three.  I don't know if Jeremy himself said they were "Final Three", but when Spencer or Tasha said it, he certainly didn't deny it.  We didn't see a confessional from him saying  "Yeah right.  Kimmi has been loyal to me since Day 1 and I'm taking her.  I'm going to try and blindside Spencer when I get a chance."  It seemed very evident to me that Kimmi had indeed been cast down to #4 in that four person alliance.

 

So why shouldn't Kimmi try and do something about it?  I applauded her for trying to make a move to take out Jeremy.  This is Survivor.  When it gets down to that few people, you do what you have to do to position yourself to win.  That's exactly what Kimmi was doing.  I don't see why what Kimmi did was any more wrong than others who have lied to their alliance mates and then blindsided them.  

 

Him going off on her and being "disappointed" that she was actually trying to play the game left a bad taste in my mouth.  It was like he was saying "I am supposed to win.  Why are you trying to mess with that.  I need this for Val."  It reminded me a lot of when Stoopert was so upset the first time he got a vote in his first of many appearances.  He was bellowing "WHO VOTED FOR ME" and demanding to know, because he's Stoopert, and nobody must dare cross him.  That's the same feeling I got when Jeremy was accosting Kimmi.  He couldn't believe that she was playing the game.

 

Just because he is St. Jeremy of the Blessed Val who is having a SON doesn't mean his reaction is no less unreasonable to me.  Kimmi was trying to blindside him.  Just like many others have blindsided many others on this season and seasons past.  It just seemed like a very unreasonable reaction by Jeremy.  I think the reaction was in part because he hadn't faced much adversity at all this season, and was offended that people wouldn't let him easily win.