S02.E08: 208

[Maire]

Noah put down Bel Canto!?!?!?!?!?

The nerve.

I'm through!!

[nara]

 

 

Noah had just come from the gym in which the only other person was reading his book. He also told Alison about a glowing review from the New Yorker, that people kept e-mailing him and that he was looking pretty good for the PEN\Faulkner based on his information.

How much adulation does Noah need?

To quote Eden, "Even Vladimir Putin settles for 98% of the vote", but Noah's heading into Kim Jong-un territory, if he's not already there.

 

I think this is fairly normal for creative types.  Writers, painters, etc. put part of their soul into their work.  A writer like Noah, in particular, laid bare his life in the novel.  It's not the same as in most other professions, where you may put a lot of thought, planning, and effort into in--but you're not necessarily putting yourself in it. Most of us have emotional distance from our work.  If an artist keeps that same emotional distance for his or her work, the work would probably not be that great.  Therefore, any criticism of the work is a criticism of the artist him or herself.  Imagine standing naked in public (the closest example I could think of). If people look at you, you'd wonder if they were appreciative or disgusted by you.  If they didn't look, you'd wonder if they were rejecting you.  Anything small could be perceived as a slight, whether or not it's meant that way.  

 

I do think Noah is self-centered, but I think his need for everyone to love his work is not unusual for a first-time-successful writer.  After a few successes, he may chill.

[walnutqueen]

When Helen told Whiney she'd inherited some of Noah's good traits, I laughed out loud.  Because (1) what good traits?, and (2) they're both gigantic assholes.

 

I SO hope Noah is hauling around someone else's baby. 

[racked]

Thank you all for pointing out the other asshole Noah moment of not letting Helen just keep his hat for her walk back to her hotel. It was cold out! He couldn't just let her have it?

[Blakeston]

I don't see Noah choosing that passage to read in front of Helen as being entirely sweet. It was better than reading the shower scene, for sure, but the message was, "I gave up the place I loved because of you."

I guess it was half sweet, half passive-aggressive. "I did this thing that made me miserable because I cared about you."

Actually, the last episode left no doubt whether Noah's book was respected by prestigious literary intellectuals. We were told that Philip Roth was crazy about it, Jonathan Franzen wanted to meet Noah, and (IIRC) that Michiko Kakutani of the NYT had given it a rave review. The good review in The New Yorker and being in the running for the PEN/Faulkner Award were carrying him along the same trajectory established last week.

That's what I argued last week, but there were people on the internet who interpreted the Endless Live comparison as a sign that the book wasn't supposed to be that good.

[SlackerInc]

Ha, attica, I noticed those impressive eyebrows as well.

[molshoop]

 

Does she even question whether or not he is guilty?

 

      What if Helen was in the car with the person who did it?  Even Martin

      would have a learner's permit by this time.  ;-)

 

      I'm very interested in the mystery part of the story.  I've read at least

      2,000 mystery books in my life, so I'm looking for an unlikely character

      as the one "who done it"

 

      Noah is becoming too much of the classic Narcissist who is filled with

      self loathing, so to me he is now a bore.  Also, his POV memories

      are probably corrupted because of the book.

[Milburn Stone]

That's what I argued last week, but there were people on the internet who interpreted the Endless Love comparison as a sign that the book wasn't supposed to be that good.

 

Well, they were wrong.

[Empress1]

I also liked the way Helen thought practically about Whitney's ambition to model: "She's not tall enough!" (She's also already too old, but let's let that go.) Whereas Noah is all "It's an adventure! Go for it"  I found myself trying to remember when it was I learned my own social security number, but... I couldn't. Maybe when I started working at 16? Maybe applying to college? Don't remember.

I got working papers at 15 and learned it then. I get WHY Whitney doesn't know hers; she's as coddled as can be. She's never worked, if she has a bank account I'm sure someone opened it for her. I actually think trying to model would be good for her because it would humble her very quickly, and possibly develop a sense of hustle in her that she's never had to have before. (I don't think Helen has one either, for the same reason.)

[meep.meep]

 

Noah had just come from the gym in which the only other person was reading his book. He also told Alison about a glowing review from the New Yorker, that people kept e-mailing him and that he was looking pretty good for the PEN\Faulkner based on his information.

 

The woman in the gym reading was the same one he saw later in the lobby.  She wasn't reading his book in the gym, she was reading the Kite Runner.

 

The person who makes Noah look the worst, is Noah.  And sometimes Allison.  But it was Noah's POV where he was complaining that he didn't win the prize because he was a white man, and where he was upset because someone was reading another book, not his, and where he got turned down for sex.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

The Affair Goes Back To School
Noah heads back to his alma mater to remind us why he's like a lecture hall at 6 AM on Saturday -- no class. Also, Richard Schiff, attorney at law, enlists the help of Helen Solloway, baby DNA collector.

[jrlr]

One thing that seems odd to me is that after all this time with Noah, Alison still doesn't seem to know or understand anything about the world of publishing or p.r.  I would think she would have made a little effort to keep up with his career, pregnancy notwithstanding.  The scene of them skyping when she shows him the nursery and is almost giddy about it just struck me a scene between two people who know almost nothing about each other and are definitely going in different directions.  

 

Maura Tierney is just terrific!  I'm glad she got to really show off her acting chops in this last episode and she was hysterical in her reactions to Noah when they were in the bar.  But. . . I also keep finding it a little difficult to believe that she is so at peace with Noah  since it hasn't been very long since he dumped her for Alison and got famous.  But I also can't think of any reason that she would be faking being caring and nice to him since she also seems to be trying very hard to get him off the hook for Scotty's death.  And even though I could shrug off the CSI silliness of swiping the pacifier, I can't get past the idea that we are supposed to believe that Helen could sit there with Noah and his new baby without any problem.  That whole scene felt incredibly emotionally dishonest to me, but maybe that's just the way I read it.

 

And for anyone who thinks that Cole might have killed Scotty, wasn't it the night of Cole's wedding that the death ocurred?  I don't see how Cole could possibly be missing from his own wedding or on his wedding night for long enough to run his brother down without anyone noticing.

[Ellaria]

I kind of like the mystery framing this, and am intrigued by it...

 

...I am really worried though, that Helen's motivation for helping Noah is more than that she wants him back...if they make Helen the accidental-on-purpose murderer of Scotty, I will rend the heavens with my cries of NO FAIR!!!  ;)

 

 

Could be network notes in play, too (certainly that seems likely, as we've been saying, with all the "Law and Order" present/future stuff, which many of us have been saying was lame all along and only is getting moreso).  I'd love to see what they would have made in a vacuum, with no such feedback, and for only as long as they felt they needed to tell the story.  At this point it feels like it is getting to that point nearly all dramatic television series get to, where they just start piling on nonsense and mixing up various romantic pairings in a quest to keep looking for more "juice".  I'm very disappointed in where things have been heading lately.

 

I, too, am intrigued by the murder mystery and never found it to be lame. I am usually not a fan of relationship dramas. However, the acting and the subjective character perspectives kept me engaged with this show. I think that it is an interesting choice to use a crime and the resulting "search for the truth" in a story where objective truth is in short supply. Basically, Det. Jeffries and Gottlief are searching for the truth of the crime much in the same way that the viewers are searching for truth in the relationships between these people.

 

Having said that, I'm also disappointed in the direction that this story has taken. I don't like the paternity issue that has come to the forefront. I'm also not a fan of Scotty's "that's our baby" claim as it pertains to the recently acknowledged curse of the Lockhart clan. There were enough reasons for someone would want to kill Scotty before that videotape surfaced. Helen is a little too involved in Noah's defense. Right now, there are too many different plot elements. The show is starting to resemble "Law and Order."

Edited November 24, 2015 by Ellaria Sand

[LoveLeigh]

Well, I think Helen knows who did it and that is the reason she hired a lawyer for Noah. I just hope this season does not end with some cliffhanger where the door opens to reveal the killer from the perspective of another character and then a fade to credits. 

 

I am so tired of these season cliffhangers on so many shows where you have to wait a year for the story plot to continue..

[lovinbob]

What did you see from Noah in this episode that struck you has having "rapey" overtones? I wouldn't quibble with finding him a contemptible human being (especially in his own POV), but that's not the same thing.

I wouldn't have said rapey overtones, but I did wonder exactly what happened. It was odd to me that Eden seemed into it, was on top of him, had her shirt off, and then got up and left. That seemed like such an odd turn of events. It wonder if that was drunk Noah's perception, and what he told himself to make himself feel better about what took place. Did she come to his door to let him know about the video, and then he pulled her in unwillingly, got her onto the bed, etc.? I could see Eden not wanting to forcefully say no to her client, not wanting to humiliate him, but then when it got to far she found a way to get out of there. That, to me, feels like a reasonable explanation of why she would have gone as far as she did and then left.

Just a possible interpretation. I must say that I couldn't IMAGINE being sober and wanted to make out with, let alone have sex with, someone who was as hammered as Noah would have been. Beer-liquor-falafel breath—gross!

Edited November 24, 2015 by lovinbob

[grumpypanda]

I'm afraid the season is going to end with the first day of trial and we won't learn the truth until next season. Anyway, I guess it's possible for Whitney to show up at the wedding to stalk Scotty but that would mean that she's been obsessed with the guy for around three years. That seems like an awfully long time for a teen girl to not get over a summer fling.

My money is on Oscar, perhaps he intended to confront Scotty about the conversation he overheard about the baby and things went bad. We all know Oscar is shady and I can see him trying to frame Noah in order to throw suspicion off of him.

I still don't get why Alison and Noah went to the wedding. She doesn't even live in Montauk anymore and it's just weird to go to your ex husband's wedding with the man you left him for.

Edited November 24, 2015 by grumpypanda

[roomtorome]

If that was my daughter, I would run away from home. She is a horror. But, before I left, I would have her phone disconnected from the phone plan. And, I would have no regrets. For even one second.

[Ellaria]

I'm afraid the season is going to end with the first day of trial and we won't learn the truth until next season. Anyway, I guess it's possible for Whitney to show up at the wedding to stalk Scotty but that would mean that she's been obsessed with the guy for around three years. That seems like an awfully long time for a teen girl to not get over a summer fling.

My money is on Oscar, perhaps he intended to confront Scotty about the conversation he overheard about the baby and things went bad. We all know Oscar is shady and I can see him trying to frame Noah in order to throw suspicion off of him.

I still don't get why Alison and Noah went to the wedding. She doesn't even live in Montauk anymore and it's just weird to go to your ex husband's wedding with the man you left him for.

 

I, too, think that its unlikely to be Whitney. However, I wouldn't call Scotty a "summer fling" since she was underage and got pregnant as a result. (To me, a "fling" describes something a little more carefree.)  I'm hoping that she moved on from him.

 

Oscar is a consideration. He keeps popping up in the story line with crucial bits of information. Assuming that it was Noah's car that hit Scotty, how would Oscar have gotten access to it? And if another car is involved, where is that car and why has no one looked for it?

 

I think that it is especially weird to go to your ex-husband's wedding when you may have conceived a child with him. I wonder if we will ever see Alison deal with the possibility that the child may be Cole's.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Ellaria Sand

[glowbug]

I learned my social security number during junior and senior year of high school because it needs to be entered for all of those college admittance tests (the SAT, the SAT IIs, the ACT, the AP tests, and I'm guessing the IB tests as well). Whitney should know it by now because she's taken the SAT and I'm pretty sure the SAT IIs because from what I can remember they were also required for college admission.

Edited November 24, 2015 by glowbug

[izabella]

I think that it is especially weird to go to your ex-husband's wedding when you may have conceived a child with him. I wonder if we will ever see Alison deal with the possibility that the child may be Cole's.

 

I'm glad you brought that up because this has been nagging me in the back of my mind. 

 

Allison had sex with Noah and Cole within the same week, right?  She must realize it's possible the child is Cole's?  If so, is she in denial and can't admit to herself that's a possibility?  Did she deliberately choose Noah as the one to father that child, isn't concerned that it might be Cole's, and is content with that?  I'm very unclear on how she felt about it, either during her pregnancy or in the present.

[violetr]

"MILLENIALS, WHAT DOES 'FOMO' MEAN?!!"   Drunk Helen was the best. This was easily the episode where she was just plain likeable.

 

 

This line bugged me because I'm Helen and Noah's age, and of COURSE I know what FOMO means! I even suffer from it. I love this show and look forward to it every week, but I do sometimes feel that the 40-somethings act older and more out-of-touch then a lot of us Gen Xers actually are. Just me? 

Edited November 25, 2015 by violetr

[loki567]

 

I wouldn't have said rapey overtones, but I did wonder exactly what happened. It was odd to me that Eden seemed into it, was on top of him, had her shirt off, and then got up and left. That seemed like such an odd turn of events.

 

I thought somebody made a good point earlier in the thread, Eden probably didn't want to be a one-night stand and by not sleeping with him when he's drunk and can shake it off in the morning, there's a bigger chance that it sticks in Noah's head and he'll pursue her just like he did Alison. Maybe if we had gotten an Eden pov, the scene would come off completely different but that's read I got on it too. 

[right]

The woman in the gym reading was the same one he saw later in the lobby.  She wasn't reading his book in the gym, she was reading the Kite Runner.

 

The person who makes Noah look the worst, is Noah.  And sometimes Allison.  But it was Noah's POV where he was complaining that he didn't win the prize because he was a white man, and where he was upset because someone was reading another book, not his, and where he got turned down for sex.

 

I remember seeing "Descent" on the tablet of the woman stepping on the treadmill next to Noah in the gym.  Not sure if she was the same woman in the lobby but I'm sure that the gym lady had Noah's book, he even got a little smile on his face because of it. 

[cardigirl]

This line bugged me because I'm Helen and Noah's age, and of COURSE I know what FOMO means! I even suffer from it. I love this show and look forward to it every week, but I do sometimes feel that the 40-somethings act older and more out-of-touch then a lot of us Gen Xers actually are. Just me?

Well, I didn't know what it was, so I appreciated Helen asking... ha ha.

[Rancide]

What did you see from Noah in this episode that struck you has having "rapey" overtones? 

 

Why does it have to be from this episode?  A guy who rapes women is a rapist, even if he doesn't happen to be raping anyone at this particular second.  

[briochetwist]

This line bugged me because I'm Helen and Noah's age, and of COURSE I know what FOMO means! I even suffer from it. I love this show and look forward to it every week, but I do sometimes feel that the 40-somethings act older and more out-of-touch then a lot of us Gen Xers actually are. Just me? 

Then you are far hipper than I.  I'm the same age too, had no clue what it meant.  And was expecting it to mean something totally different!

[SlackerInc]

This line bugged me because I'm Helen and Noah's age, and of COURSE I know what FOMO means! I even suffer from it. I love this show and look forward to it every week, but I do sometimes feel that the 40-somethings act older and more out-of-touch then a lot of us Gen Xers actually are. Just me?

I definitely knew, and suffer from it as well. But the Millennials on the AfterBuzz podcast were not familiar with it, so go figure.

[briochetwist]

I definitely knew, and suffer from it as well. But the Millennials on the AfterBuzz podcast were not familiar with it, so go figure.

Just asked my 18 year old if he knew and he didn't have a clue.  

 

Edited to add, just asked the 16 year old female and she didn't know either. We're either all incredibly unhip or it's not as popular as some people think.

Edited November 25, 2015 by briochetwist

[TheFinalRose]

I knew what FOMO meant, but I have a 20 year old daughter who suffers from it all the time. If she weren't around I would be clueless too. What my daughter doesn't know is her social security number by heart. She knows where the card is kept when she needs it, but she doesn't have her number memorized yet. Neither does her older brother.

 

As for our illustrious literary hero, I truly think the writers are just overdoing it with Noah right now. Give him some maturity in some area of his life, for heaven's sake.  This is a man whose first novel bombed. Clearly he has gone through the process of thickening his skin regarding unflattering reviews; one would imagine he went through that fire with a failed first novel, which he most likely put his heart and soul into as well.  Therefore, I just cannot accept that he would let some rinky-dink college kid's review send him over the edge, if we are to believe that he got flattering reviews from almost all major players and was also in the running for a major award, and was already on the best seller lists.  Sure, artists are insecure, but not insane.  I could see him throwing the New York Times in the kid's face, but not a fist. The way they are writing his success he should be on cloud 9 right now, not punching dorks out.   

 

I also thought the "move to New York" line from Whitney irked, like the rest of Whitney irks me. I do like Maura Tierney though, although I have a hard time buying that she would be able to sit in a bar with Noah and have such a great time with him. He just blew up their lives and she seemed perfectly okay with just hanging out. It seemed weird. Just weird.  

 

And I saw Eden's backtracking with her shirt off as a way for the writers to portray Noah as some super sexually magnetic man without having to deal with the complications of him being unfaithful to Allison on top of every other flaw they were assigning him.  Eden's walk-off was pretty abrubt. 

 

I do not care, at all, who killed Scott Lockheart.  

 

[ScoobieDoobs]

I was bothered by the way Whitney sneered to Helen about not calling Max "uncle".  Er, why, Whitney, why?  Is it cuz she knows about the shorty "relationship" Helen had with Max?  Or is it something more sinister?  Like maybe Max hit on her or molested her?  Well, Max is certainly a slimy/smarmy enough character, I wouldn't put it past him.  Oh yeah, and Margaret loves him, so I immediately suspect the worst of him.

[glowbug]

I'm a millennial, albeit one of the older ones (I can remember a time before the Internet and had audio cassettes and VHS tapes at one time) and I had no clue what it meant. I was glad Helen asked.

[ScoobieDoobs]

OK, so if Whitney is not mentioned at all in Noah's POV, er, then why does he think Helen is in Williamstown?  Whitney was the ONLY reason Helen was in Williamstown.  But Noah makes no acknowledgement of Whitney, so does he assume Helen is yet another swooning woman he encounters in his POV?  Remember what happens to those who don't swoon over him?  Like his sister or Athena or even Alison.  He always get angry & dismisses them and/or runs away.  These are attributes Treem likes?  OK then, Treem.

 

I guess we should be thankful to Treem that Noah didn't ignore Eden's no & repeat what he did with Alison, for another ambiguous (but not really ambiguous) rape scene.

Edited November 25, 2015 by ScoobieDoobs

[SlackerInc]

I wonder if #FOMO is actually more of a big thing for GenXers who are regular Twitter users. Or does that describe any of you who said you didn't know what it meant?

[Milburn Stone]

Why does it have to be from this episode?  A guy who rapes women is a rapist, even if he doesn't happen to be raping anyone at this particular second.  

 

I take you back to your original post, in which you explicitly referred to Noah's encounter with Eden in this episode. You quoted ScoobieDoobs, who wrote, "I didn't feel sorry for Eden one bit." In response to that, you wrote, "I feel sorry for any woman Noah hits on. Rapey-overtones sleezeball. Gross."

 

So a natural inference for anyone to make, Rancide--if you "feel sorry for any woman Noah hits on"--is that you feel Noah brings "rapey-overtones" to all his encounters with women he's attracted to, and in particular Eden. Do you? And if so, what were they?

Edited November 25, 2015 by Milburn Stone

[cardigirl]

I wonder if #FOMO is actually more of a big thing for GenXers who are regular Twitter users. Or does that describe any of you who said you didn't know what it meant?

Doesn't apply to me, and I didn't know what it meant, but I do know YOLO (have never used it though).  You may be right about it being a Twitter thing.  I do text too, but apparently I text entirely too many words.  Apparently you are supposed to be brief.  Ha ha.

[Neurochick]

Noah is a douche and I don't know why Helen keeps cape-ing for him.

 

I HATED when that lawyer told Helen, "she stole your husband."  Excuse me Mr. Lawyer, but have you ever heard of the 13th Amendment?  Human beings are not property that can be stolen.  Noah's horny behind wanted to stray.  Sorry but I detest when people equate human beings with stuff that can be stolen.

[jrlr]

I was bothered by the way Whitney sneered to Helen about not calling Max "uncle".  Er, why, Whitney, why?  Is it cuz she knows about the shorty "relationship" Helen had with Max?  Or is it something more sinister?  Like maybe Max hit on her or molested her?  Well, Max is certainly a slimy/smarmy enough character, I wouldn't put it past him.  Oh yeah, and Margaret loves him, so I immediately suspect the worst of him.

Of course she knows that Helen and Max hooked up.  She's a teenager who sees everything that goes on in the home when she's not staring into a mirror.  And since she already wrongly suspected Helen and Max of having had an affair while Helen and Noah were still married, it wouldn't be a big leap to assumed that since they have now gone out together, they also slept with each other.  That sneer was "oh, puh-leeze, you aren't fooling anyone!".  

[cardigirl]

Noah is a douche and I don't know why Helen keeps cape-ing for him.

 

I HATED when that lawyer told Helen, "she stole your husband."  Excuse me Mr. Lawyer, but have you ever heard of the 13th Amendment?  Human beings are not property that can be stolen.  Noah's horny behind wanted to stray.  Sorry but I detest when people equate human beings with stuff that can be stolen.

I've been really disappointed with the way the lawyer is being portrayed.  I guess he is the family lawyer, but this one-size-fits-all approach to all of Helen's legal problems doesn't compute.    And he comes off as an idiot anyway.  The whole "paramour" thing in court was ridiculous.  In most states, having an affair does not figure into the judge's decision about custody and/or settlement.  

[RedInk]

I wonder if #FOMO is actually more of a big thing for GenXers who are regular Twitter users. Or does that describe any of you who said you didn't know what it meant?

I'm not quite 40, don't use Twitter and have never heard FOMO before this episode. So maybe you nailed it. That whole scene bummed me right out, because I unconsciously think of myself younger and cooler than Noah & Helen. Then the show comes along to remind me that I'm old, and they're really my peers. I like your theory, because it means I'm still cool...I just don't tweet ;) Edited November 25, 2015 by RedInk

[violetr]

I wonder if #FOMO is actually more of a big thing for GenXers who are regular Twitter users. Or does that describe any of you who said you didn't know what it meant?

 

 

Yeah, or maybe it's more recognizable to regular social media users in general? I use Facebook, Twitter and Instagram pretty frequently. Plus I have (half) sisters and friends still in their 20s, so I'm also pretty exposed to youth culture. 

 

As for our illustrious literary hero, I truly think the writers are just overdoing it with Noah right now. Give him some maturity in some area of his life, for heaven's sake.  This is a man whose first novel bombed. Clearly he has gone through the process of thickening his skin regarding unflattering reviews; one would imagine he went through that fire with a failed first novel, which he most likely put his heart and soul into as well.

 

 

This is an excellent point and I agree. Up until now Noah's douchebaggery has seemed more or less believable, but now it's just completely over the top. I know we have to take it all with a grain of salt because of the different storytelling perspectives, but really dude? Suddenly he's drunkenly punching out book critics, hitting on young women indiscriminately, and trying to nail his publicist? He's tipped over into caricature now. He may be even worse than Bruce Butthole. 

[ScoobieDoobs]

I take you back to your original post, in which you explicitly referred to Noah's encounter with Eden in this episode. You quoted ScoobieDoobs, who wrote, "I didn't feel sorry for Eden one bit." In response to that, you wrote, "I feel sorry for any woman Noah hits on. Rapey-overtones sleezeball. Gross."

 

So a natural inference for anyone to make, Rancide--if you "feel sorry for any woman Noah hits on"--is that you feel Noah brings "rapey-overtones" to all his encounters with women he's attracted to, and in particular Eden. Do you? And if so, what were they?

 

The thing is, Treem entered into an awful zone with that rape-ish scene (with Noah & Alison).  And in her own words (in the Times interview) she did it on purpose.  OK then.  The prob for her is this scene now colors how many viewers see Noah.  Many (not me) can't see Noah with a woman, without seeing him as a potential rapist.  Hey Treem, you set this situation up.  

 

Look, the scene with Eden was pretty clear.  She was into it, they started up, she shut it down, he backed off & she left.  That's it.  And yet, there was probably for many viewers, the expectation that Noah would go at Eden whether she agreed to go forward with sex or not.  This is what you set up, Treem, so live with it.

 

I'm not quite 40, don't use Twitter and have never heard FOMO before this episode. So maybe you nailed it. That whole scene bummed me right out, because I unconsciously think of myself younger and cooler than Noah & Helen. Then the show comes along to remind me that I'm old, and they're really my peers. I like your theory, because it means I'm still cool...I just don't tweet ;)

 

I'm a Gen X'er who doesn't use (or have any interest in) Twitter.  Are we freaks to the millennials?  You betcha.  While I loved Helen's drunken shout-out to the millennials, asking what FOMO is, keep in mind Treem is a millennial herself.  Why keep that in mind?  I think it was her cut/zinger to the over-40's, who supposedly have no understanding or are sneering at millennials.  From that standpoint. me no likey.  Oy, Treem, stay away from interviews, please.

[DarkRaichu]

This is an excellent point and I agree. Up until now Noah's douchebaggery has seemed more or less believable, but now it's just completely over the top. I know we have to take it all with a grain of salt because of the different storytelling perspectives, but really dude? Suddenly he's drunkenly punching out book critics, hitting on young women indiscriminately, and trying to nail his publicist? He's tipped over into caricature now. He may be even worse than Bruce Butthole. 

 

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I believe Noah behaved just like any douchebag with newfound fame would. ie. the fame just magnified his douchbagginess (is that even a word? :D )

[meep.meep]

The thing is, Treem entered into an awful zone with that rape-ish scene (with Noah & Alison).  And in her own words (in the Times interview) she did it on purpose.  OK then.  The prob for her is this scene now colors how many viewers see Noah.  Many (not me) can't see Noah with a woman, without seeing him as a potential rapist.  Hey Treem, you set this situation up.  

 

If Allison didn't think it was rape, was it?  She didn't even say no.  The very first episode of The Affair showed Cole and Allison in a "rape-ish scene," but no one ever accuses Cole of being rapey.   Seems like a double standard.  Nothing that Noah did in this episode, either from his perspective or from Helen's, was close to rape.  If you overuse the word, it loses its power.

 

I think that Noah, even from his own perspective, has real problems.  He seems himself as a douchebag, much more than Helen does.  And I agree that it's newfound fame.  In the past, he was always in the shadow of Helen's family.  He had a steady job and was a good father, but this is the first time he's got recognition for something he's achieved.

[Neurochick]

You're right about that.  In the first episode, Cole bent Allison over a car I think, while Noah watched and thought, "WTF is this?"

[truthaboutluv]

If Allison didn't think it was rape, was it?  She didn't even say no.  The very first episode of The Affair showed Cole and Allison in a "rape-ish scene," but no one ever accuses Cole of being rapey.   Seems like a double standard.  Nothing that Noah did in this episode, either from his perspective or from Helen's, was close to rape.  If you overuse the word, it loses its power.

 

 

This has already been referenced and in my opinion, the two scenes are not really comparable. Yes, both scenes had Alison aggressively being "taken" in a public place. However, in the scene with Cole and Alison, we first see from Noah's perspective that he interpreted it as violent and made a step towards them (I assume to protect Alison if need be) and Alison clearly puts her hand up to stop him. In Alison's perspective, we the viewers hear the part of the scene that Noah didn't.

 

And in it, we see Cole and Alison arguing yes and then Alison starts breaking down begging him to just make the pain stop and he gets emotional telling her he doesn't know how. Then they start kissing and Cole takes her hand, clearly intending to bring her inside and she stops him and proceeds to quietly beg again, saying please, and that's when Cole seems to interpret her need as wanting to have sex right then and there and bends her over the car. In my opinion, the scene was clearly set up in a way to show that Alison was hurting and in so much emotional pain at that moment and just wanted desperately to feel something that could make her forget the pain for a few minutes at least.

 

I also think that was one of the scenes meant to show how different Alison and Noah remember these events and how Noah saw Alison versus how she saw herself then. Once Alison stops Noah from approaching, he stays and watches the whole scene and proceeds to jerk off to the memory in the next episode. Then this season we have him telling Alison that the whole scene was clearly for his benefit. Alison's memory of the moment was clearly meant to show that while Noah saw some sexy vixen, she remembers being in so much pain over the loss of her son and wanting her husband to make it stop somehow in that moment.

 

With Alison and Noah, we have Alison all episode reacting to the brutal reality she realized about herself - that she was using reckless sex to deal with her grief and that partly because of that, Noah clearly has some image of her as some oversexed temptress. And she acknowledges that she doesn't want to be that woman anymore. He drags her out of her yoga session, demanding she leave with him, when she tells him no, they start to argue where she tells him he can't control her and his response is to kiss her roughly twice and then turn her around and screw her up against a tree.  For the record, I don't and have never interpreted the scene as Noah raping Alison but I disagree with the attempts to suggest the scene was pretty much the same with what happened between Alison and Cole. 

 

Yes both scenes included the men aggressively having sex with Alison from behind, in a public place, but the context, tone and dialogue of each scene matters just like in any literature where setting, tone, dialogue, etc. plays a significant part in interpretation. YMMV of course. 

Edited November 25, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[ScoobieDoobs]

If Allison didn't think it was rape, was it?  She didn't even say no.  The very first episode of The Affair showed Cole and Allison in a "rape-ish scene," but no one ever accuses Cole of being rapey.   Seems like a double standard.  Nothing that Noah did in this episode, either from his perspective or from Helen's, was close to rape.  If you overuse the word, it loses its power.

 

I think that Noah, even from his own perspective, has real problems.  He seems himself as a douchebag, much more than Helen does.  And I agree that it's newfound fame.  In the past, he was always in the shadow of Helen's family.  He had a steady job and was a good father, but this is the first time he's got recognition for something he's achieved.

 

I don't agree.  The scene with Cole had no rape overtones (to me).  Somewhat rough sex, with Alison clearly into it?  Nope, I didn't see any rape overtones at all.  And I don't get what you mean.  How can the word rape be "over-used"?  And how would the use of the word rape, even if it is used a million billion trillion times, ever have any affect on women being raped?  I don't get it.

 

Now don't get me wrong.  I am not one of those who thought the rape-ish scene with Alison was rape.  I thought Alison never in any way indicated she didn't want to proceed with the sex.  Still, it was uncomfortable to watch -- and it wasn't totally clear to the viewer whether she was in shock & going thru with the sex, but not really wanting it.  I can totally understand how some would see it as rape.  In the Times interview, Treem was referencing "angry sex" to explain this scene.  Ugh, that annoyed the absolute hell outta me.

 

As I stated above, the scene with Eden was clearly not rape.  But there's the lurking sinister expectation, which Treem has set up, whether she intended to or not, that every time we see Noah with a woman, many viewers will now groan & think -- is he gonna rape this woman?

 

I figured Noah's probs begin & end with his failure (in his mind -- and of course, in the minds of Margaret & Bruce Butt-hole) as a provider for Helen & the kids.  But here's what I'm really wondering:  This thing with Noah & banging random chicks -- has he always been this way?  Or was he faithful to Helen for many years & this urge to bang tons of hot young chicks is just bursting out in full force?  Did the affair with that sex machine Alison bring this out in Noah or was it always there?  Idk, just wondering.  Right now, Treem hasn't given us much of a clue.

Edited November 25, 2015 by ScoobieDoobs

[Constantinople]

As for our illustrious literary hero, I truly think the writers are just overdoing it with Noah right now. Give him some maturity in some area of his life, for heaven's sake.  This is a man whose first novel bombed. Clearly he has gone through the process of thickening his skin regarding unflattering reviews; one would imagine he went through that fire with a failed first novel, which he most likely put his heart and soul into as well.  Therefore, I just cannot accept that he would let some rinky-dink college kid's review send him over the edge, if we are to believe that he got flattering reviews from almost all major players and was also in the running for a major award, and was already on the best seller lists.  Sure, artists are insecure, but not insane.  I could see him throwing the New York Times in the kid's face, but not a fist. The way they are writing his success he should be on cloud 9 right now, not punching dorks out.

I don't think the underwhelming response to A Person Who Visits A Place thickened Noah's skin. In Season 1 he checked to see if the Montauk library had a copy of it, but, IIRC, became a little pouty when he noticed no one had checked it out.

Now that I think about it, given that Descent has sold more copies than the Bible and Uncle Tom's Cabin combined, shouldn't the publisher of A Person Who Visits A Place put out a second edition?  I think it's a different publisher than for Descent, but why shouldn't they cash in?

 

 

I'm a Gen X'er who doesn't use (or have any interest in) Twitter.  Are we freaks to the millennials?  You betcha.  While I loved Helen's drunken shout-out to the millennials, asking what FOMO is, keep in mind Treem is a millennial herself.  Why keep that in mind?  I think it was her cut/zinger to the over-40's, who supposedly have no understanding or are sneering at millennials.  From that standpoint. me no likey.  Oy, Treem, stay away from interviews, please.

Yet the scene started out with how joyful Helen was to be carded, which is a bit unrealistic. Maura Tierney doesn't look old, but she doesn't look as if she's in any danger of being an underage drinker. So I'm not sure FOMO was meant to be a zinger.

[ScoobieDoobs]

Yet the scene started out with how joyful Helen was to be carded, which is a bit unrealistic. Maura Tierney doesn't look old, but she doesn't look as if she's in any danger of being an underage drinker. So I'm not sure FOMO was meant to be a zinger.

 

In many joints they supposedly card anyone under 40 & have signs saying they do so.  Does Maura look under 40?  Um, sure, I suppose.  In dark dive-bar lighting, absolutely.

 

Well, when first watching it, I thought the FOMO comment was a dig on millennials.  But thinking about it, since Treem is a millennial, I think it's very much the other way around.  Maybe not a zinger, but a not-so-subtle dig, on us poor, clueless over-40's.  Thanks, Treem (and F.U. btw, hun)

[Milburn Stone]

The thing is, Treem entered into an awful zone with that rape-ish scene (with Noah & Alison)...

 

Look, the scene with Eden was pretty clear.  She was into it, they started up, she shut it down, he backed off & she left.  That's it.  And yet, there was probably for many viewers, the expectation that Noah would go at Eden whether she agreed to go forward with sex or not.  This is what you set up, Treem, so live with it.

 

It sounds like we can agree that any intimations of "rapeyness" in this episode (either with Eden or the college girl who slid her phone number across the table at Noah) are strictly imaginary. Whether we can lay any blame for people's imaginations at Treem's feet, I think we may differ on.

[Irlandesa]

I'm not quite 40, don't use Twitter and have never heard FOMO before this episode. So maybe you nailed it. That whole scene bummed me right out, because I unconsciously think of myself younger and cooler than Noah & Helen. Then the show comes along to remind me that I'm old, and they're really my peers. I like your theory, because it means I'm still cool...I just don't tweet ;)

I'm the same age as you but I am ALL about Twitter. I had no clue what FOMO meant.  I still have no clue what FOMO means because even though I saw the episode, I've forgotten. It was the first time I've heard of it and now I have to Google so maybe this will eventually seep into my online lingo.  I guess I still suffer from it.

 

I don't necessarily see it as a dig at any generation.  It was maybe a slight dig at Helen for assuming the millenials would know what it meant.  Clearly some did. But we didn't see the silent groups who didn't know.