S02.E05: The Darkness And The Light

[Marie F.]

I think somebody's gotta go to make room for him, don't you? Iris will likely be heavily involved with that, as will Barry and Joe. I'm thinking Patty's the one who's out by then, since she has no powers, and basically exists to get Barry laid (imo). Once that's done, Jay's still got a big arc to play out, so I'm figuring she's the disposable character here.

 

And Linda, if they want to keep her around (which they should because it gives Iris an actual, regular setup at the newspaper) is supposed to be a major figure in Wally's life, so there's another female addition (when they need her) right there.

Yep. There are way too many characters on the canvas right now and I think the only few people that are completely necessary at this point are Barry (obviously), Wells, Cisco and I think Caitlin is comfortable too because she's clearly very popular with the people who make the show (writers/producers).  And Patty is filling the love interest role on the show and I think that if they like the character, they could keep her (let's hope not) as a recast if the actress leaves.

Edited November 4, 2015 by Marie F.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

I am not disagreeing with the thinking that Zoom is E2's Barry Allen, but I really hope it isn't.   Surprise me writers and avoid the obvious!

 

*holds up glass for a toast*  Here's to Zoom being E2 Eddie or Eobard Thawne - or better yet, Joe West!  How'd that be for a shocker!?

 

ETA:  Dumb question hoping for a not-quite-so-dumb answer... Kendra the Barista is 

Hawkgirl (for the upcoming LoT), right

?

Edited November 5, 2015 by Chip
spoilers

[wingster55]

I really think that once the LOT is done for good, Iris will get her storyline kicked into high gear.

I'm not saying Patton is on the level of EBR or anything, but when they do give her somewhat longer scenes (which is inexplicably rare), she does well, like last week with the deadbeat mom. I would think they would at least respond to that aspect of her.

You're right...she's way better.

[ottoDbusdriver]

Did I miss it or was it explicitly shown/stated during the episode that the barista at CC Jitters was

Hawkgirl.

Because if it wasn't mentioned at all, there are a lot of spoilery references in various posts in this episode thread.

 

One thing that Jay said that surprised me was that the continent of Atlantis exists in Earth-2 -- and is apparently a magical place.  I wonder where it's located, and who lives there.

[MarkHB]

I loved Barry quoting - or paraphrasing - Captain Cold when he was talking to Dr. Light.
 

One thing that Jay said that surprised me was that the continent of Atlantis exists in Earth-2 -- and is apparently a magical place.  I wonder where it's located, and who lives there.

My guess is that it's a blond guy by name of Arthur Curry.

[Sakura12]

She said her name was Kendra Saunders.

Kendra Saunders is Hawkgirl.

[cambridgeguy]

Headshot!  Good thing that helmet was bulletproof or that would have been really, really messy.  I do wonder how the police and legal system would deal with the idea of Earth 2 doppelgangers committing crimes. Criminals could blame their crime on their doubles.

 

What is it that Jay does when he's not onscreen?  Watch tv?

 

As for Zoom, I'd say the candidates are Earth 2 Barry, Earth 2 Henry, Earth 2 Joe, and Earth 2 Eddie (or a resurrected and time displaced Earth1 Eddie).  A lot of the impact is lost if he ends up being some random guy even if it's quite a coincidence otherwise (like with Linda being Dr. Light).

Edited November 4, 2015 by cambridgeguy

[Cirien]

Re: Harry's Shatner's-esque speaking: Wasn't it a put on for his audience?

 

In the confrontation between Harrison Wells and Jay Garrick he went back into his more "normal" speech patterns

[benteen]

Good episode.  Earth 2 Wells was a lot of fun with how abrasive he was even though he's not Eobard Wells, or so we think.  Blind Barry was a lot of fun too and no West family drama.  So that's a plus.  Nice to see Linda back.  I'm glad the pointless secret-keeping is over with Cisco.  It makes sense sticking Captain Light in the pipeline since she doesn't belong on Earth 1 and all evidence would point to the innocent Earth 1 Linda being connected to her editor's murder.

 

The writers continue to not know what to do with Caitlin except stick her in another romantic relationship five minutes after her last one ended.  Her rapid fawning over Jay has been embarrassing.  Sears acting continues to be a mixed bag, with him often emoting like he was a tree.

[benteen]

I was surprised that Barry didn't ask Cisco to design him something to protect his eyes.  Thought that was odd.

 

Loved Wells-2 calling Cisco "Crisco".

[Gregg247]

If Barry had any sense at all, he'd skip Iris and Patty and make a bee-line for Caitlyn.  She's awesome, plus she has more in common with barry (fellow scientist) than the other two.

 

I'm sorry Harry is such a jerk, but it appears he's not actually a villain, so that's good.  I liked how different Harry's relationship is with Cisco than Harrison's was.  The two actors probably enjoy playing off each other so differently, too.

 

During Barry's showdown with Dr. Light at the train station, why did Barry say he couldn't get near her?  He's super-fast!  He ended up defeating her by running all around her so fast that he left after-images of himself.  Why not just run up to her and sock her in the jaw?  

 

I was also surprised that, after his first encounter with her, he didn't get some kind of eye protection from Cisco and Caitlyn.  Isn't that the pattern on this show?  First fight is a disaster; Cisco/Caitlyn diagnose the problem and give Barry a new tool/armor; second fight uses that tool/armor to win the day.

 

I knew Iris' boss was toast as soon as he showed up and Linda said he was the best boss she'd ever had.  BTW, nice job by Iris as a sharpshooter.  I was hoping she'd go for the gun, but I thought she'd use it just as a threat to make Dr. Light stop.  Glad to see her show some skills.

 

I guess Jay doesn't have a secret identity on Earth 2.  I was wondering how wearing a Frisbee on his head would prevent people from recognizing him when he fought crime.  Based on Ronnie and Jay, Caitlyn definitely has a "type", doesn't she?

[TobinAlbers]

DickHarrison Wells was a joy. Unlike E1 Eobard/Wells' gentle coaching, E2 Wells is 'shove you over a cliff/into the deep end' kind of teacher. You do it. Period. Wish he wasn't going for the Batman rasp, but loved his slinging and bringing it with the verbal and physical jabs. But honestly, you'd be an edgy dick too if your daughter was kidnapped by a meta human you had a part in creating AND your superheroes have insecurity issues to the point that they don't take out the baddies and just keep 'tactically retreating' to fight another day. He's projecting his anger at himself onto Jay but there is enough anger to go around.

 

Loved Linda Park getting her dark doppleganger on. So glad the West family drama was put on ice this episode.

 

I SO want to like Barry and Patty and I like them individually but together? Eh. That epic build to their kiss didn't feel earned. They haven't know each other long enough and don't have the overwhelming chem to make you feel it. Felicity and Barry didn't have the long history for their moments on Arrow of Flash, but their chem was hella strong so I totally bought those two deeply digging each other for who they were in the moment. I actually think they could make a good couple if they'd allow it but destiny has them for better or worse paired with Oliver and Iris.

 

I also want to like Jay and Caitlin but it's again too much, too soon for me with them. Although I can rationalize Caitlin wanting to feel something other than pain and throwing herself behind a hero who seems to be as lost as she is and wants to preoccupy herself with taking care of him rather than confront her loss. But seriously folks, a stakeout to protect someone from a metahuman is not the time to be making out!

 

As for the theory of Zoom being E2 Barry corrupted by his powers, it may be obvious but it's got some nice symmetry.  It makes sense for it to be Barry corrupted into Zoom as Zoom was created by 'good' Wells' dark matter explosion in E2; Wells' 'dark/corrupted' E1 counterpart (aka Eobard/Wells) did the same thing and created good Barry/Flash in E1.  And they had Barry say in the Snart episode how he could've turned out different/bad had he not had Joe to keep him good. He's stated several times how much he wishes he could kill Thawne for killing his mom. And then this episode Caitlin drops the anvil that having powers doesn't necessarily mean you go evil. People think she was referring to E2's Caitlin/Killer Frost but it could also be foreshadowing Barry's E2 taking a dark turn. The writers have been planting seeds for this reveal.

 

In many hero stories your greatest enemy is the person you see in the mirror. Barry's worried about external threats when he also needs to be guarded about the potential for darkness in himself. One of the hurdles a hero has to clear is himself- if this theory is right, Barry gets to physically do that by facing the most terrifying, angry, corrupted, most powerful version of himself- his E2 counterpart, Zoom.

 

I think the unexpected twist/tipping point/wish fulfillment is that Zoom (evil Barry) kills E2 Wells which is something that E1 Barry's wanted to do but in seeing E2 Wells die, Barry realizes that isn't/wasn't what he wanted as Harrison Wells (in both verses) was never the culprit- Eobard Thawne was. And it'll be in E2 Wells' death that Jay rises up to his full potential as a take'em down hero.

 

BTW no joke that the best ep of the season is when Wells is back large and in charge.

Edited November 4, 2015 by TobinAlbers

[Sakura12]

The issue I'm having with Zoom is if he's so powerful why doesn't he just kill Barry himself? Why is he sending random metas? Especially after a couple of them have failed. You'd think big powerful unstoppable Zoom would just go finish the job.

 

I guess that's the problem when you tell your audience how big and bad the villain is and can't have that villain fight the hero until the mid or season finales.So all we see his the villain send henchman after henchman and fail. That just makes me think that the villain isn't all that big and bad.  

[Ruby25]

Yeah, that was the difference between Reverse Flash/Wells last year and this. Zoom is basically a faceless entity right now- it reminds me of the "First" villain on Buffy. Just an all powerful force without a personality behind it.

 

Of course, I do believe we're going to find out it's Barry, but how long until then? And then, does Grant play an evil version of himself onscreen? That might be kind of interesting.

[Primetimer]

Once more out of the breach, former friends!

Read the story

[catrice2]

Not really sure what it is, but I am not as interested this year as I was last year.  I will have to re watch as I missed what made them take the Wells 2.0 into the fold.  It must have happened quickly as I only missed 8 or 9 minutes of the show.  I agree with Jay , with everything they know now and have seen, why wouldn't there be more reservation about Wells? 

 

I like Patty ok, I just don't get Patty with Barry and not because of Iris. It is like they took a blueprint of "what would Barry like," or how can we make a female Barry? She is cute, geeky, awkward, naive, likes science, likes, police and is just so gosh darn sweet!  I would have like them explore him and Linda more, a woman that might make him grow and was clearly opposite from him in a lot of ways.  Patty is just too "perfect" and I agree, she shows Barry acting more like a boy. 

 

I also don't see Iris mourning Eddie, but I never bought the Iris/Eddie relationship.  That is why it makes no sense for them to keep she and Barry apart for that reason.  I would have rather saw Iris flirting with Jay to be honest...it would have made more sense and caused more upset. 

 

This season just seems slower to me, and even Joe is starting to bother me.  I couldn't be less interested in his ex wife, and was that a licensed gun that  he gave Iris? 

 

I do like Iris being able to take care of herself, similar to a few scenes last year.  Cisco still annoys me...he asked for a date like a high school kid...again, I would like for them to grow the characters up. 

[Sakura12]

I also wouldn't mind if Linda tells Iris about a new guy she's been seeing and it turns out to be Iris' never before seen brother that was mentioned last episode. 

[maczero]

So they are filling the pipeline again.

I don't mind them using it for Earth 2 villains.  They really should be facing justice on their world than here.  I'm going to assume that the plan is that they'll be eventually returned to Earth 2 with Jay.

 

Speaking of Earth 2 villains, any status on King Shark?  Patty mentions him briefly, but doesn't say if he's alive, dead, in police custody or escaped.  Also, even though a lot of fans know it's King Shark, why would Patty call him that?  What would make him a king in her eyes?  I mean Shark Man or Land Shark seems like a more reasonable name for a shark/human hybrid.

 

Iris was good here, but once again underused and left out of the quiet moments. It does not feel at all like her and Barry are best friends- Cisco/Caitlin are clearly his best friends.

I think this makes sense.  Cisco & Caitlin were part of team Flash long before Iris so he could always share that part of his life with them.  They're also science geeks so he has that in common with them.  And lastly, admitting his crush has changed his relationship with her.  She's felt awkward around him ever since he admitted it.  Now this doesn't mean that Caitlyn & Cisco have replaced Iris as his BFF's, it's just that I can see why Barry and Iris don't seem that close. 

 

Also, he called Cisco "Crisco." Which has nothing to do with anything, but amused me greatly.

I think it shows how little he thinks of anyone that isn't Harrison Wells.  Still funny though.  Even better that Cisco didn't correct him or even bother reacting.  I wonder if the actor messed up the line and they just decided to keep it in.

 

Captain Cold is not a meta human.

True.  But the Barry told Joe that it's probably a good idea to put Cold in the metahuman wing.  No idea if he's really there though.

[zannej]

I had to watch the episode later, although while it was airing I checked Twitter and saw that William Shatner was live-tweeting about the episode as he watched. He seemed to like the "Crisco" thing. I found it amusing that people mentioned Wells sounding a bit like Shatner and that Shatner was commenting.

Some comments from him:

William Shatner ‏@WilliamShatner 16h16 hours ago

#TheFlash why did he accept calling himself from Earth-2? Isn't his perspective that he's from Earth-1?

 

William Shatner ‏@WilliamShatner 15h15 hours ago

#TheFlash Again Wells mentions Earth-2.

 

William Shatner ‏@WilliamShatner 15h15 hours ago

#TheFlash I'm sure Cisco didn't hear you Harry. Yell a bit more

--

 

I was really glad to see Tom Cavanagh back and interacting. He really seems to have a chip on his shoulder and be in a bad mood-- granted he can probably feel the tension from the other people there-- but he is clearly under a lot of stress. He was pacing around and just in a bad mood. I wonder if E2 Wells is normally that cranky or if it was his daughter's disappearance/abduction that has him acting like that. I noticed there was no wedding band so I wonder what happened to Tess Morgan (assuming he was married to her). I'm guessing divorce or death.

 

To answer a question about why Barry couldn't just put on the metahuman detecting watch and look for light: Because he's a metahuman and he would set off the watch's detector. It's like trying to use a compass to find magnetic north while holding a magnet near it.

 

I wonder what Wells would have done if Caitlin had set off the metahuman detector.

 

One of my biggest nitpicks about this show is how Barry rushes in, allows himself to be seen by the villain, and then has to try to dodge. His speed is such that he could have run to the train station and searched at superspeed, then zipped over and incapacitated Dr. Light (good question about how she got the doctor part of that name) before she even noticed. Just as he could have just zipped in and taken weapons away from other villains before they had time to react but instead had to have these big showdowns.

 

I agree that Barry should have asked to get some tech to protect his eyes-- but I think they are trying to establish that the rhythm they'd had with the guidance of Eobard is thrown off and they aren't as organized or confident without him. Barry is still inexperienced enough that he can't always figure out what to do or think of the solutions.

 

On the date with Patty:

1. Why did he not just tell her straight off the bat that he'd had an eye appointment and that his eyes were still not functioning properly? It would have saved me a lot of secondhand embarrassment.

2. Why the hell did Cisco use a black&white camera and why was the feed so bad? Even non StarLabs tech that is better exists now. I get that it had to be thrown together on short notice, but we've seen Cisco pull much better things off in just as short of a time. Barry could have even called and said he wasn't canceling but that he was going to be late.

 

I want to like Patty but she's such a supreme Mary Sue and I feel like the writers are just shoving her in there so forcefully-- having Joe encouraging Barry to go out with her, etc. It is not the least bit natural or organic. I feel like they opened Barry's ribs with a crowbar and are trying to cram her into his heart with all the subtlety of an elephant in a glass factory.

 

I also want to like Caitlin-- the actress seems like a sweetheart-- but I find that there is something about her character that bugs me. I think it is the performance. I know others have mentioned the acting isn't great-- she tends to do this wide-eyed look thing that annoys me. I'm not getting a genuine sense of intelligence and the writing makes her come off as not quite as professional or intelligent. I dunno. I think she and Cisco actually have good chemistry. I loved the bit last season where she cried on Cisco's shoulder and he just held her. That moment just seemed genuine and natural. You could get a sense that these were two people who cared about each other and they weren't trying to sexualize it. I get the sense that Jay seems to feel lost and confused-- now I don't know if that's because the actor doesn't know what to do or if he's such a good actor he is making it seem like that. I got zero chemistry between him and Caitlin though. I, too, think they are just trying to push that ship too hard and I won't be surprised when it goes down like the Titanic (because Caitlin might be Killer Frost and the Titanic hit an iceberg) . I cringed when Caitlin was ogling him and insisting on extra physical exams because she was attracted to him. I thought that was just extremely unprofessional and actually rather demeaning to the character. What is it with television shows that they have to portray women like that? I adore Felicity, but I never got the whole thing of her being so distracted by men's looks that she couldn't concentrate. Not everyone is ruled by their hormones like that.

 

I found it interesting how "Harry" carried a tool and banged it on something near Cisco as if he was deliberately trying to scare him-- and it was odd to me that he actually laughed a little when Cisco told him about being killed. I wonder if it was scripted that way or if Tom figured that was how Harry would react. I think they want to clearly establish that he is not exactly a compassionate person.

 

I don't think that Jay is actually a coward and I do think Harry was overly harsh. Zoom is clearly very powerful and demented and there is no shame in Jay trying to survive if he doesn't know how to defeat him. I think what he really needed was an ally that could help him with his confidence and strategy. The fisticuffs with Harry were rather interesting. It seems that this Harrison Wells actually knows how to fight. I do wonder if there is a bit more to the bitterness between those two.

 

As to who Zoom is, I have no idea at this point. He could be a number of people: Joe West, Henry Allen, Ronnie, Well's daughter's ex-boyfriend (assuming she had one), Eddie Thawne, Barry, the reporter guy (can't remember his name) that had been investigating Wells and was killed on earth 1, the owner of a candystore- aka the candyman...

 

I hope Harry's daughter survives and we get to see them reunited.

 

Am I the only one who is very amused by the way Carlos says "dick"? I don't know why, but his line delivery for it is great. I also love how he does more subtle emoting with his face and eyes-- the "are you crazy?" look he was giving Barry when Patty was very obviously (and embarrassingly) hitting on Barry was funny. But really, asking him to help with her police report? WTF kind of inept idiot is she that she needs help with that? That is such a lame excuse and makes her seem nearly incompetent. It is just so demeaning. I can get Iris asking for help with science stuff she doesn't understand, but asking for help with something as simple as a police report? Ugh.

 

I really like Linda Park and I hope she will stick around.

 

If they weren't so obviously pushing Patty as a love interest for Barry, I might not mind her so much. Maybe in E2 she ends up with Eddie or something. I dunno. Speaking of which, I hope we get to see E2 Eddie.

 

Did I mention that I loved the shout out to Aquaman?

Edited November 4, 2015 by zannej

[Ruby25]

 

 

I want to like Patty but she's such a supreme Mary Sue and I feel like the writers are just shoving her in there so forcefully-- having Joe encouraging Barry to go out with her, etc. It is not the least bit natural or organic. I feel like they opened Barry's ribs with a crowbar and are trying to cram her into his heart with all the subtlety of an elephant in a glass factory.

Great description! I agree completely.

[Miss Dee]

I don't think she needed help with the report. She wants to spend time with Barry but isn't sure if he's interested in her that way or not. So she asks him to work on job-related things so they can be together with too much pressure until Barry asks her out or she's reasonably sure he's not interested.

[KirkB]

One thing that stuck out to me was Jay has explicitly said, several times now, that Zoom stole his speed and would have killed him if he wasn't drawn through the breach. If Zoom can do that why is he bothering with any other metahumans at all? Just steal Barry's speed and then anyone can kill him. Regardless of who Zoom is, the way he is going about this whole thing makes no sense that I can see.

 

When Barry showed up for his date with Patty I half expected him to tell her there had been some kind of a mishap at the lab to explain his eyes. Yes, it would be a lie, but better that than trying to deceive a police detective in such a transparent way. It's just a good thing she likes him so much.

 

I am a little bothered by them continuing to refer to the guy who killed Barry's mom and did all those other terrible things as Harrison Wells when it wasn't. Harrison Wells has been dead for fifteen years. If they don't want to refer to him as Thawne out of respect for Eddie or Iris, then just stick with Reverse Flash.

 

I agree Zoom is most likely an alternate Barry. It's certainly the most obvious.

 

As for Kendra Saunders, I am going to err on the side of caution.

Doesn't Hawkgirl have wings? That is, real wings? Was she hiding them under her clothes somehow or is there a version of Hawkgirl who has artificial wings?

Edited November 4, 2015 by KirkB

[DavidJSnyder]

On Kendra Saunders

I know the Hawkgirl from the Justice League cartoon had natural wings, but
the traditional Hawkman and Hawkgirl and Hawkwoman from the comics had
artificial wings they strapped on.  I don't know what DC might have done
with the character lately wing-wise.

I

Edited November 4, 2015 by DavidJSnyder

[Richness]

Great to have TC back, though I really don't like this porch dick.. erm... lab dick... version of Wells. His raspy voice is giving me horrid Bale Batman flashbacks. I really wanted Crisco, erm... Cisco to mutter under his breath "still a dick" after Harry triggered Vibe's powers by shoving the mask into Cisco's chest like how Thawne shoved his hand all the way into his chest. Glad the secret is out in the open, as I still don't understood or agree with why he was so reluctant to tell Team Flash.

 

While Earth-2 Harry may not be as outright evil as the Thane version, he's still got ulterior motives galore. It's going to be unfortunate when it's revealed he's working for Zoom to get his daughter back. Not sure how Team Flash will ever be able to trust him after that, and I really want TC to stay. Speaking of Zoom, I love the theory that he's really E2 Barry, as all the pieces fit. However, with all the speculation about how they're going to introduce Wally West, what if that's who Zoom turns out to be? An evil E2 Wally is no more far fetched than an evil E2 Barry.

 

Even though I liked Jay's introduction, his angry aggressive, and cowardly stance was also a little off-putting in this episode. Love his name-dropping of Atlantis as a spectacular place to visit. The awkward kiss attempt was way too rushed, as is the relationship, but there doesn't appear to be anything that can be done about that.

 

I also can't believe how useless the Barry was against Light at the train station. I realize they're wanting to emphasis how much of a team they are, but his wailing "what do I do?" while hiding behind something just really destroyed that entire scene for me. Dude, you move fast enough to catch bullets, appear multiple places at once, and even time-travel; you can easily sneak up behind the villain and knock her unconscious. This has been a problem with all the live-action superhero shows when dealing with people with powers. I guess the pacing just works better in comics, though i haven't read them in a while, so I may be looking at them through rose-tinted memories of childhood.

 

Patty is just annoying and superfluous, so I'm not that really vested in hating her. I'm glad she wasn't fooled by the blind subterfuge though. Nor am I really that upset by her and Barry kissing and having a relationship.

[bettername2come]

I found it interesting how "Harry" carried a tool and banged it on something near Cisco as if he was deliberately trying to scare him-- and it was odd to me that he actually laughed a little when Cisco told him about being killed. I wonder if it was scripted that way or if Tom figured that was how Harry would react. I think they want to clearly establish that he is not exactly a compassionate person.

 

God, I wanted to punch him in that scene. Although I'm greatly amused that when Cisco walked away, he took the tool with him, then set it by the door. Like, "if you can't play with the toys nicely, you can't have them."

[zannej]

God, I wanted to punch him in that scene. Although I'm greatly amused that when Cisco walked away, he took the tool with him, then set it by the door. Like, "if you can't play with the toys nicely, you can't have them."

 

I hadn't even noticed that! I'll have to watch again.

 

As to why Zoom doesn't enter the portals and go to Barry's timeline, maybe he is concerned that traveling through the portal will adversely affect his powers? There could be something in his own world that he needs to be near. Or maybe proximity to another speedster might diminish his power in the speed force. They mentioned that Zoom wanted to eliminate other speedsters. My guess is that maybe the speed force is like water coming out of a main line-- the more branch lines there are, the more the water supply is divided. In the presence of others with the same powers, maybe it slightly diminishes his own? Or maybe he knows something the others don't know and he could be afraid that Barry could somehow take his powers from him.

 

I'm hoping that they can find a way to restore Jay's speed. Also hoping that the speedforce is NOT like the water thing and that more speedsters does not diminish the top speed of the individual speedsters.

[Jack Kerouac]

Pretty good episode, but I don't dislike Patty, so there is that. I thought it was a tie for best line of the night, either Harry calling Cisco 'Crisco,' or Cisco saying to Barry during his date, "Yeah, I'm still here - peepin' and creepin'."

[tennisgurl]

I am pretty positive to neutral on Patty, but I kind of hope she is some kind of plant, who is just pretending to be the perfect woman for Barry, when she is actually somehow shady. That would make her a lot more interesting. 

[Ruby25]

I am pretty positive to neutral on Patty, but I kind of hope she is some kind of plant, who is just pretending to be the perfect woman for Barry, when she is actually somehow shady. That would make her a lot more interesting. 

I've seen a LOT of people who want that to be what's happening here, but I think that's just an indicator of how Stepford Wife-ish she comes across. And frankly I think it's just lazy writing, I don't think there's going to be a secret agenda with her. I think she was just brought in to show that Barry has had at least one adult relationship before Iris happens.

 

Still though, with everything going on and so many characters, I don't know why that needed to be a priority right now- I mean, I don't think it's that necessary, is it?

[ottoDbusdriver]

She said her name was Kendra Saunders.

Kendra Saunders is Hawkgirl.

 

While that may be true, for those of us that don't read the comics and have avoided spoilers, this fact hasn't actually been stated on the show ..... yet.

[zannej]

Is it still considered a spoiler if it was revealed in a promo/trailer for the new series?

[Sakura12]

It's like any comic Easter Egg thrown in the episode. If they mention a comic name people are going to jump all over that. I didn't hear complaining about King Shark. I had no idea who that was, but it was talked about during that episode. Or Grodd when he was shown briefly in his first appearance. This no different. 

 

She was mentioned in the casting, it was mentioned in the LoT trailer, comic con, interviews and it's her name in the comics. Kendra Saunders being

Hawkgirl is not a spoiler.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Chip
spoilers

[cynic]

I can't seem to find a set rule here, but on the other site that many of us came from, casting news wasn't considered a spoiler so people would be able to mention that

Ciara Renee is playing Hawkgirl.

[VCRTracking]

I like dickish Harrison Wells and I like Patty and thought her date with Barry was cute.

[CooperTV]

I only watched Wells's scenes, and Nu!Wells is awesome!

[millennium]

"Our Dr. Wells was evil, but you're just a dick."   LOL!

 

I like this Dr. Wells and his "grow up already, we have work to do" attitude.

 

I also enjoyed the portrayal of Jay Garrick as a failed hero.   You could feel his shame as he confessed his fear of Zoom, who emasculated him as a superhero.   These are emotions you don't see much on Arrow and The Flash, especially on The Flash where gung-ho and can-do prevail. 

 

I loved that Wells called Cisco "Crisco" and loved it even more when no one corrected him.

[Locutus]

I'm wondering if Jay's lack of speed is actually psychological.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Locutus

[Marie F.]

If I recall correctly, Barry lost his speed, too, for a minute and it turned out it was all in his head.

[Chip]

Is it still considered a spoiler if it was revealed in a promo/trailer for the new series?

 

 

I can't seem to find a set rule here, but on the other site that many of us came from, casting news wasn't considered a spoiler

 

It usually DOES count as a spoiler here! Any knowledge not specifically from the current episode or a previous episode should be spoiler tagged or discussed in one of the topics labeled with the spoiler tag.

 

I think I have gone through and caught all the references in this thread but I may have missed a few.

[DavidJSnyder]

If it was just psychological you'd think Caitlin would still have found physical evidence of it in her tests.

[sjohnson]

I thought "Harry" laughed at Cisco's story about Wells/Thawne thrusting his hand into his heart because he didn't really believe it. His followup about Cisco getting over it was understatement  for "I don't believe you." When Cisco said that about the time line being reset, he not only drew the obvious conclusion Barry did it, but realized no one could remember it. Or at least no normal human, but only a metahuman. Which is why he checked his wrist as Cisco was leaving. I wonder if one reason Harry doesn't like Cisco is because he's creeped out over the secret metahuman thing?

[Cekrypton1]

Cisco is right that Harry is "a diiiiick" and it is amazing. All hail Cavanaugh and Wells 2.0

[jaytee1812]

 I'm not saying Patton is on the level of EBR or anything, but when they do give her somewhat longer scenes (which is inexplicably rare), she does well, like last week with the deadbeat mom. I would think they would at least respond to that aspect of her.

  

Please CP is streets ahead of EBR.

Yeah, I don't think we're going to get that with him and anybody. I've reached the conclusion that as good as he is, he's just not capable of projecting that kind of chemistry with an actress.

 

The only time I ever saw anything like that was the early scenes on the roof with him and Iris when he was disguised as The Flash. Maybe that bodes well for when he and Iris get together, or maybe it had something to do with the mask, I don't know.

He has it here

http://youtu.be/m_-Bna82cjY

Which is weird as its a duet between a gay man and a lesbian.

[Minneapple]

I about died when Wells called Cisco "Crisco."

And later, Cisco: Our Dr. Wells may have been evil, but you're just a dick!

[ottoDbusdriver]

I about died when Wells called Cisco "Crisco."

And later, Cisco: Our Dr. Wells may have been evil, but you're just a dick!

 

Even better was the way Cisco said that Earth-2 Wells was just a dick.

[zannej]

It usually DOES count as a spoiler here! Any knowledge not specifically from the current episode or a previous episode should be spoiler tagged or discussed in one of the topics labeled with the spoiler tag.

 

I think I have gone through and caught all the references in this thread but I may have missed a few.

Ahh! Thanks for clearing that up! It can be hard to keep things straight with different forums and different rules.

 

I thought "Harry" laughed at Cisco's story about Wells/Thawne thrusting his hand into his heart because he didn't really believe it. His followup about Cisco getting over it was understatement  for "I don't believe you." When Cisco said that about the time line being reset, he not only drew the obvious conclusion Barry did it, but realized no one could remember it. Or at least no normal human, but only a metahuman. Which is why he checked his wrist as Cisco was leaving. I wonder if one reason Harry doesn't like Cisco is because he's creeped out over the secret metahuman thing?

That's an interesting take on it. I imagine Cisco must have sounded "cray cray". I think part of the dislike between Cisco and Harry is that Cisco can't look at him without worrying about betrayal and the feelings he had about Eobard and Harry doesn't like being looked at that way and doesn't know Cisco so he doesn't care. I think he's also stressed out and worried about his daughter. Perhaps he even thinks she's dead.

 

Speaking of the daughter, did it look like she could have been kept in a cage area sort of like Grodd? Could she be in a part of E2 Star Labs?

 

Who are CP and EBR?

[millennium]

Ahh! Thanks for clearing that up! It can be hard to keep things straight with different forums and different rules.

 

That's an interesting take on it. I imagine Cisco must have sounded "cray cray". I think part of the dislike between Cisco and Harry is that Cisco can't look at him without worrying about betrayal and the feelings he had about Eobard and Harry doesn't like being looked at that way and doesn't know Cisco so he doesn't care. I think he's also stressed out and worried about his daughter. Perhaps he even thinks she's dead.

 

Speaking of the daughter, did it look like she could have been kept in a cage area sort of like Grodd? Could she be in a part of E2 Star Labs?

 

Who are CP and EBR?

 

I believe those are the initials of the ladies who play the roles of Iris and Felicity (of Arrow).   Their full names elude me, ironically because people repeatedly post initials vs. actual names.

Edited November 7, 2015 by millennium

[zannej]

I believe those are the initials of the ladies who play the roles of Iris and Felicity (of Arrow).   Their full names elude me, ironically because people repeatedly post initials vs. actual names.

Ah! Thank you!

Candice Patton and Emily Bett Rickards (I had to look it up). Ok. That makes sense now. I like both actresses, but I think that Emily gets better dialog and material from the writers most of the time. Their characters are just so different that I can't really compare their acting skills at this point. I've seen more of Emily than of Candice. I really liked Candice when she did interviews.

 

One of these days I will remember the names of the actors/actresses on both of these programs. Some are easy to remember (like Grant Gustin-- I like alliteration) and others I constantly forget. I can't remember the first name of the Panabaker (is that how its spelled) girl-- but I remember the last name because it reminds me of cooking and I like to eat. :P

[ElectricBoogaloo]

We know he dated Becky Cooper, right?

Winnie Cooper's bratty sister? I kid, I kid (mostly - because I would love to imagine her bossing him around).

 

One thing that Jay said that surprised me was that the continent of Atlantis exists in Earth-2 -- and is apparently a magical place.  I wonder where it's located, and who lives there.

Heh, maybe it's near Tahiti. He and Agent Coulson can talk about their magical "vacations."

[ottoDbusdriver]

Is Linda Park of Earth-2 supposed to be an engineer or something ?  Where did she get that fancy retractable bullet-proof helmet from ?  And why do her powers seem to only come out of disc of LEDs in the palms of her hands.  Did she build those too ?  Is she an actual doctor ?  If so, is she a medical doctor or a Ph.D. ?

 

Quite honestly, Dr. Light is a pretty lame supervillain nickname.  She gets her powers from starlight -- so basically she gets her power from the Sun, since it's the closest star.  Do her powers dwindle during nighttime since she can't recharge from the closest star ?  Can she be defeated long-term by simply locking her in a closet ?  And who exactly figured out that she gets her powers from the stars ?  Because I don't think that's something anyone would just figure out on their own.

Edited November 8, 2015 by ottoDbusdriver