S04.E04: Beyond Redemption

[tarotx]

WM has said that DD isn't Felicity's dad.

Doesn't Brian Ford Sullivan have next's episode?

So I get it, Felicity looked at a picture of DD and did not recognize him, so it's not her dad. That theory appears dead. But DD did say to Quentin, "from one father to another." I doubt that's a throwaway line. He's got family. Just not the Smoaks. Interesting.

There was a lot of foreshadowing this episode and tons of set up. There were some good scenes between Oliver and QL and Oliver and Thea, but the sum of all the parts was a let down. I wasn't bored per se, just sort of waiting for something to happen...and then it never did. I didn't dislike the episode. I just found it wanting and disjointed. It was, however, much more enjoyable than last night's Flash, which suffered from many of the same problems.

Brian Ford Sullivan has let me down.

And Dammit! We need more Diggle. We were PROMISED!

[catrox14]

I think the reason I actually like it when Felicity cries is because I'm a crier. Like, I was bored to tears in this ep, and I still cried like twice? Once with hiccups and hugging my legs and everything when Oliver told Lance he wanted his approval.

 

So: REPRESENT US CRIERS, FELICITY. I STAND WITH YOU.

 

:)

 

I'm a huge crybaby. I cry about everything! I don't mind that Felicity cries.  I just didn't much care for the context of it in this situation.

[Luckylyn]

Let me get this straight, Laurel decided the best way to care for her disturbed sister was to chain her in a dark basement without a bed or bathroom and leave her unattended for hours at a time.  That's a recipe for mental stability.

[KenyaJ]

Again the stunts are awkward. It's annoying.

 

They all feel so labored. I think there's just too much going on with so many more bodies in every scene. I hate it.

[Guest]

I will have to agree with the IGN review that said Felicity is drifting away from the rest of the cast again. It's true. I'm all for her having her own storyline but when it feels like they're purposefully keeping her away from the action, it annoys me and reeks of comic book agenda.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Guest

[BkWurm1]

I'm a huge crybaby. I cry about everything! I don't mind that Felicity cries.  I just didn't much care for the context of it in this situation.

My first thought to her crying was that it seemed like when she found out he was dead that she didn't let herself morn, that she probably was sad but pushed any of the feelings away. And now, they came out. 

[La Dee Da]

It's great to have Sara back and all but I'm looking forward to the spin off heavy lifting to be over. I guess things were moved along this episode - I thought Team Arrow would find out about Quentin's deal with Darkh much later in the season. The "cop makes the wrong choices in trying to do good and ends up compromised" stuff felt a bit heavy handed, though.

I'm curious how they'll do with the campaigning - Oliver is presumably running unopposed right now, right? My slogan would be "The only choice - literally and figuratively". I hope the interning looks good on cvs or on college applications, given how deadly the mayoral business is!

New lair looks nice and has a nice retro dance floor to boot! I'm sad they went with a relatively logical explanation of Cisco pitching in and not say, Oliver bluffing about building a man cave to a bunch of contractors.

[BkWurm1]

They all feel so labored. I think there's just too much going on with so many more bodies in every scene. I hate it.

This so much.  Everybody has to have their moment coming in and everybody has to have their bit of the fight shown and everybody has to be shown either winning or losing depending on when the fight takes place in the episode.  It was TOO long and dull and except for a few awful and IMO embarrassing moments from Laurel, completely unmemorable.  Plus really hard to believe.  This team sucks.  You know that Roy, while he might have been knocked out in a few minutes would have at least done some fancy flips to entertain us. 

 

Then there was the knife to Oliver's back, that was just frustrating.  Not only that he was find a couple hours later, but people have started to say that five months in the suburbs ruined Oliver's fighting abilities.  It certainly ruined his knack for hearing people creep up behind him. 

 

You know what the problem is, it's not really that there are too many masks (though that is part of it) It's that they are trying to make them ALL EQUAL.  That was their solution to avoid Laurel being a sidekick.  They got rid of any junior partners.  Nobody has a learning curve.  The fights should be designed so that Oliver is the one doing the most while the rest of the team deals with the B team but it's the opposite. 

[tarotx]

So Blood's campaign headquarters and Blood's former lair. I guess that could be a little wink to Blood being a player in Comic HIVE.

I think Felicity just feels guilt about Ray dying while she was on vacation. And then later she will feel guilt about how her guilt kept her from finding Ray earlier.

Edited October 29, 2015 by tarotx

[lemotomato]

 Questionable things:

 

1. I know that we saw Oliver use that knock a person out to the point where the person looks dead in the first season, but only in the present day timeline with the Bratva, right?  When, exactly, did he learn this in the flashbacks? He was struggling with just shooting a bow in the first year on the island; I don't think that Slade, Shado or Sara or anyone else knew this the second year, and ARGUS was teaching him how to torture people and break through windows, so how does flashback Oliver know this now?

I think it's implied that Yao Fei taught him the knock out trick (or maybe Oliver learned by osmosis), since he did it to Oliver before throwing him off a cliff to fake out Fyer's men.

 

I don't have anything to add to the general comments about tonight, aside from acknowledging that I really liked the first three episodes this season before being disappointed by this one. Which still makes it better than last season, when I never even managed to enjoy two episodes in a row. Oh, the halcyon days of season 2A...

Edited October 29, 2015 by lemotomato

[WaitandHope]

You are correct tarotx! Sullivan is the next episode. This was Schwartz and Sokolowski, who I also like. It was just too much to do to make a good narrative episode. I'm very glad I didn't recommend to any friends to watch (Flash and) Arrow this week- they would have been perplexed and bored.

[SmallScreenDiva]

I will have to agree with the IGN review that said Felicity is drifting away from the rest of the cast again. It's true. I'm all for her having her own storyline but when it feels like they're purposefully keeping her away from the action, it annoys me and reeks of comic book agenda.

 

It's happening to both Felicity and Laurel because they're the ones connected with the characters for the spinoff. Like others have said upthread (and I've also said before) it'll be great when all the setup for LOT is finally done and Arrow can go back to being about Arrow. That said, I'm not too worried it'll be like last year's Palmer Island. Mostly because Felicity and Oliver are now together, so that I think keeps her close to the A story. Laura Hurley of Examiner.com said something about this in a recent ask that I agree with: "I’m really not afraid of Felicity being removed from the A story. The hero of the show is in love with her, wants to marry her, and lives with her. She literally shares a bed with the A story."

[kismet]

I think the biggest problem with the episode is that there were decent bits here and there that if expanded upon would have made a good meal. But instead it was put together like Leftover night. Where they cleared out the fridge, pieced together whatever pieces they could find and voila a meal is served. It wasn't really an episode, as much as 40+ min of Arrow footage put together to fill a timeslot.

[Guest]

I liked how Felicity's computer station is like this central focal point in the new lair and raised on a platform like she's a goddamn queen. LOVE!

 

 

It's happening to both Felicity and Laurel because they're the ones connected with the characters for the spinoff. Like others have said upthread (and I've also said before) it'll be great when all the setup for LOT is finally done and Arrow can go back to being about Arrow. That said, I'm not too worried it'll be like last year's Palmer Island. Mostly because Felicity and Oliver are now together, so that I think keeps her close to the A story. Laura Hurley of Examiner.com said something about this in a recent ask that I agree with: "I’m really not afraid of Felicity being removed from the A story. The hero of the show is in love with her, wants to marry her, and lives with her. She literally shares a bed with the A story."

 

 

I don't notice it with Laurel so much because she's always been disconnected and separate from everything else, since s1 tbh. But it's different with Felicity. I don't think it will be anything like Palmer Island from s3 because we're also learning about Felicity here and it's setting up some relationship conflict with Olicity which is all very character based and I'm fine with it. I guess I'm just tired of her storylines always revolving around men. 

 

I do love what Laura Hurley said though. Agreed! 

Edited October 29, 2015 by Guest

[quarks]

I think it's implied that Yao Fei taught him the knock out trick (or maybe Oliver learned by osmosis), since he did it to Oliver before throwing him off a cliff to fake out Fyer's men.

 

I'd totally forgotten that. Thanks! That still leaves me pretty confused though, since Oliver and Yao Fei didn't really spend that much time together after that, right? Certainly not enough time for Vulcan nose pinching techniques. And if he learned it back in the first season, why hasn't flashback Oliver used it since?

[EmilyBettFan]

I just don't see how one would think Lance family storyline was pushed aside because of Olicity. They had like 3 scenes together and the rest was action, task force and again for the fourth straight year Lance family drama. I'm sure the people have had enough.

[lexicon]

That said, I'm not too worried it'll be like last year's Palmer Island. Mostly because Felicity and Oliver are now together, so that I think keeps her close to the A story. Laura Hurley of Examiner.com said something about this in a recent ask that I agree with: "I’m really not afraid of Felicity being removed from the A story. The hero of the show is in love with her, wants to marry her, and lives with her. She literally shares a bed with the A story."

 

Which would be fine if all I was interested in seeing was Felicity and Oliver together as a couple. Make no mistake I love me some Olicity but seeing Felicity as an important and contributing member of the Team is important too and sending her off to PT to banter with Curtis or look for Ray and then only popping up to hack for the few minutes necessary to track down the location of the team's next mission, is  not enough. The Arrow and team Arrow that I fell in love with had Felicity as an integral member. That was reduced last season as she was sidelined because of the need to prop RP and I'm fearful it'll happen again this year. 

[Lantern7]

I'd like to think that the person who wrote this episode hates Laurel as much as I do. Between her "Canary Cry" getting neutralized and Sara chain-choking her, I'd expect "#LaurelFail" or "#CanaryFail" to become a thing. I know I was cheering. And how stoked must Rutina Wesley have been to been on a show where she wouldn't be as hated as she was on True Blood?

 

Anybody else want a Quentin/Joe scene in the next crossover episodes? "I'm telling ya, I should have stopped at one kid. You're lucky you have a daughter. I had two daughters. Then one. Then the dead one wasn't dead. Then she died. Now she's back and all feral. [long pause] What's it like to be so close to a superhero and not want to punch him in the face?"

 

I liked that Queen-For-Mayor is greeted with as much skepticism as I can muster. On the surface, it's one of the dumbest ideas imaginable . . . but since Star City is so messed up, of course he's gonna be hip-deep in interns and volunteers.

[Guest]

Which would be fine if all I was interested in seeing was Felicity and Oliver together as a couple. Make no mistake I love me some Olicity but seeing Felicity as an important and contributing member of the Team is important too and sending her off to PT to banter with Curtis or look for Ray and then only popping up to hack for the few minutes necessary to track down the location of the team's next mission, is  not enough. The Arrow and team Arrow that I fell in love with had Felicity as an integral member. That was reduced last season as she was sidelined because of the need to prop RP and I'm fearful it'll happen again this year. 

 

This. But it's happening to Oliver too. His abilities are still being 'dumbed' down so everyone else on the team gets their moment. I'm just not interested in that, especially because Thea and Laurel are not on his level and shouldn't be on his level for years yet. 

 

There's just too many of them. Sigh. I miss last week already. 

[Princess Vanellope]

Okay, will someone please explain to me why most of this episode exists? I don't expect much from you TV, just to be entertained. And for 90% of this episode I was BORED.

I liked the Thea and Oliver stuff. I liked when Oliver told Quentin to sit on it and spin. I liked that they decided to work together at the end, although my first thought when that happened was RIP Lance. I liked Oliver's speech.

The cop stuff was...meh.

Laurel....why? Whatever dude, super glad that your car alarm worked the second time, bravo. And great job making fixing Sara somehow all about yourself. Did you even answer her when she asked who she was? Nope you didn't. So Sara is potentially not only crazy, but running around SC with no idea STILL of who the ever loving hell she is. Great. Super job, really.

Screw it, I'm just going to watch Sara try to choke Laurel over and over while I eat frosting out of a can like Goldie Hawn in the beginning of Death Becomes Her.

[tarotx]

Felicity didn't have much "life" outside team Arrow in the earlier seasons. She is still getting that plus her own thing. And her own thing is connected to the A plot via PT is funding Oliver's campaign and reserch is being done for the crime of the week at PT. The issue with her is except last episode no real Diggle interaction. She got the ring moment with Thea and Laurel.

No HIVE front this week meant very little Diggle but he was still in the action and he gad a strong character moment about baby Sara.

I liked how Felicity's computer station is like this central focal point in the new lair and raised on a platform like she's a goddamn queen. LOVE!

I don't notice it with Laurel so much because she's always been disconnected and separate from everything else, since s1 tbh. But it's different with Felicity. I don't think it will be anything like Palmer Island from s3 because we're also learning about Felicity here and it's setting up some relationship conflict with Olicity which is all very character based and I'm fine with it. I guess I'm just tired of her storylines always revolving around men.

I do love what Laura Hurley said though. Agreed!

[Guest]

Felicity didn't have much "life" outside team Arrow in the earlier seasons. She is still getting that plus her own thing. And her own thing is connected to the A plot via PT is funding Oliver's campaign and reserch is being done for the crime of the week at PT. The issue with her is except last episode no real Diggle interaction. She got the ring moment with Thea and Laurel.

No HIVE front this week meant very little Diggle but he was still in the action and he gad a strong character moment about baby Sara.

 

Well, I noticed the lack of Diggle too...

 

As I said before, I'm glad she's getting her own storyline outside of the team but I feel there needs to be more cohesiveness. It feels like she's jumping around all over the place and the Team Arrow stuff feels kind of disconnected, for me personally. I'm more than willing to wait and see how this pans out once Ray and Sara have gone but I don't like the feeling right now. Guess we'll wait and see.

[fantique]

This so much.  Everybody has to have their moment coming in and everybody has to have their bit of the fight shown and everybody has to be shown either winning or losing depending on when the fight takes place in the episode.  It was TOO long and dull and except for a few awful and IMO embarrassing moments from Laurel, completely unmemorable.  Plus really hard to believe.  This team sucks.  You know that Roy, while he might have been knocked out in a few minutes would have at least done some fancy flips to entertain us. 

 

Then there was the knife to Oliver's back, that was just frustrating.  Not only that he was find a couple hours later, but people have started to say that five months in the suburbs ruined Oliver's fighting abilities.  It certainly ruined his knack for hearing people creep up behind him. 

 

You know what the problem is, it's not really that there are too many masks (though that is part of it) It's that they are trying to make them ALL EQUAL.  That was their solution to avoid Laurel being a sidekick.  They got rid of any junior partners.  Nobody has a learning curve.  The fights should be designed so that Oliver is the one doing the most while the rest of the team deals with the B team but it's the opposite. 

Can someone use the twitter to remind the writers that the show is called ARROW for a reason?  I feel like this is my feedback every week. Sigh...

I jumped in a third into the episode and will catch up on Hulu buut what I saw was enough for me to feel this way. Get it together people.

[BunsenBurner]

I'd totally forgotten that. Thanks! That still leaves me pretty confused though, since Oliver and Yao Fei didn't really spend that much time together after that, right? Certainly not enough time for Vulcan nose pinching techniques. And if he learned it back in the first season, why hasn't flashback Oliver used it since?

Oliver used the technique when he and Duggle went to see the Bratva for the first time and he had to kill one of their minions. He told Diggle to trust him just before he did it.

Edited because my iPad and my brain aren't working in tandem.

Edited October 29, 2015 by BunsenBurner

[Lady Calypso]

Well then. That was the episode. I guess I should just start off with the parts that I liked:

 

1. Quentin/Oliver scenes, especially the first apartment one.

2. The new lair.

3. Paul Blackthorn getting his chance to shine.

 

Yeah, that's about it. I'm sorry, but Laurel believing that her sister will be fine in a few days? I actually can't with that at all. How in the world does she think that Sara just needs a couple of days to walk off being resurrected? Like.....that's shit writing, because it's just predictable lines spouted. It's like the writers have stopped trying with her, which means that it's probably time for her to go. If they can't even be bothered to try writing Laurel (....better....) then that's a sign that they should just be rid of her so there can be time dedicated to things that the writers actually care about writing. 

 

Listen, this is the fourth episode in a row that Oliver is incapable of a fight at some point in the episode. This time around, he literally gets backstabbed. It's not that Oliver's incapable of losing a fight, but it's more that he's a much better fighter than what he is this season, and I do think it's because we have to see the others on the team be just as good, or at least closer on par, and they can't have regular Oliver because he'd kick most of their asses any day. I don't hate the fact that he has a team, but I do hate the fact that all of them are sent out to fight and all of them have to be shown kicking ass or losing, including Oliver. There does need to be a division of labour when they go out on the field. Unless there's a bazillion guys they're fighting, we don't need Oliver, Diggle, Thea and Laurel all out there. Maybe have Thea and Oliver fighting, and have Laurel and Diggle doing surveillance or something. And if you must, have Oliver take a break and have him doing surveillance or something. Having all four of them out there, or even just three, can make things hectic if the work they're there to do doesn't require so many superheroes.

 

I don't mind that Felicity wasn't ready to hear the last words from Ray. I may not like Ray, but Felicity did and maybe six months is still too soon. I get that Curtis was helping with sharing his story, but I was hoping he'd tell Felicity his story then say that it's ok if she isn't ready, followed by Felicity agreeing to do it. People do grieve at different stages, and maybe Felicity hadn't been ready; maybe she did need a couple more months, which is fine. But yeah....I was hoping they'd get into more of the voicemail or whatever and have her stumbling upon a frequency of Ant Ray's voice. 

 

The cop stuff made no sense to me whatsoever. So, cops who are trying to not be criminals by....being criminals? And saying to not shoot cops by...shooting detectives? And saying that Quentin would be the solution followed by...kidnapping him in front of his daughter? Those cops didn't even try to get rid of his phone or anything that could track him! And all it takes is one measly (though decent) speech by Quentin to have Lady Cop turn herself in. 

 

Did we find out earlier that Thea knew about the ring, or is this new information to us? Either way, I do actually love it and love that Thea's so cool with it. Also, Oliver as Mayor is kind of growing on me. The flashbacks are frustrating me. I'm glad for Oliver's haircut, but how is he going to be able to grow it out in less than two years? Or shall we discover that he finds a wig and a fake beard and puts it on before his rescue? 

 

Well, bye bye Quentin! You're most definitely the one in the grave, unless EPs realize that it would be too easy and they kill your eldest daughter instead. Sorry Primal Slayer; I know you love Laurel and I wish I could feel the same, but since it's clear everyone on the cast and crew but at least MG and KC either do not care about Laurel or dislike her (in my opinion), then maybe it's better to let the actress go and killing off the character in a spectacular fashion. I just think since they don't care about Laurel enough to write her character better (even if KC can't act well), then why keep trudging her, and all of us, through her scenes? Let her go with a tiny shred of dignity left, as little as there is now. 

[TrueMyth]

When the episode has cops sweeping in on a drug buy and taking out all the dealers, it's a sad commentary on the state of Oliver's "no kill policy" that I actually paused to wonder if they were going to say the dealers were "knocked out" the same way Diggle and Oliver only "knocked out" the Assassins when infiltrating the LoA at the end of season 3.

 

Why the hell couldn't Laurel keep Sara in her apartment?  It is actually less public than the apparently communal basement of her building and would be more comfortable for Sara.  Her roommate is the only one totally in on the whole thing.  Oliver doesn't stop by unless Thea almost kills someone.  Why?  Also, 'amen' to those who've observed that, as fetching as Caity is in that black corset (you know, the one she's be slowly rotting in for the last year), why isn't she in something more comfortable?

 

Of course, when the LoA trained killer escaped the chains at the end of the episode, I told my husband, "Hey, maybe Laurel's right!  Things are coming back to her!"

 

This episode felt rather oddly paced and edited.  I know they shifted production to accommodate actor availability for 4x05, but the whole mayor plot seemed like it was meant to follow 4x02.  Oliver even says he had the idea "last week," right?  As nice as some of the scenes with Lance were, I didn't feel like there was a through line with him in some scenes, as he crossed from the "Sara plot" to the "Cop plot" and back again.

 

If the glitches in the new lair systems ARE caused by Ray, then I'm a bit creeped out, since that means he must have hitched a ride on Felicity at some point, and... I can't even finish the sentence.  I never got past his stalker stuff in early season three.

 

I didn't mind the idea of Ray trying to send Felicity a message.  He's had five months as a little atom guy, so he could totally have cooked it up.  Seems odd that he'd arrange to have her hear his final words.  At the same time, it would be like a flight recorder, right?  So why couldn't Felicity give Curtis the password and then let him prescreen the file?

 

One of the odd beats for me was the intercutting to Felicity listening to the recording and crying during Oliver's speech, when she was standing there in real time grinning at her adorable boyfriend in a suit.  It was a jarring juxtaposition, and added to the "cobbled together" feel of this episode.

[wingster55]

So Thea hired all the interns and wrote Oliver's speech. Also she's a (off screen) successful business owner. Why doesn't she run for mayor?

[catrox14]

So Thea hired all the interns and wrote Oliver's speech. Also she's a (off screen) successful business owner. Why doesn't she run for mayor?

 

I think this is foreshadowing exactly that.  She might end up running against Oliver.

[Starfish35]

Well that was....mediocre. Can't say I wasn't warned though.

Paul Blackthorne put in an amazing performance. Katie Cassidy....showed up. *sigh*

The flashbacks are still boring, but might possibly get more interesting next week.

Thea is adorable. The thing about assuming it was an engagement was funny.

The new lair looks amazing.

The storyline about the cops killing other cops "but we're not criminals!" was really really stupid.

Pretty much nothing happened on the Sara front, except that Laurel is still delusional, and Quentin got his heart broken all over again.

The thing about the money is really annoying me and I'm trying to ignore it.

Can we pleeeeeeeeeeeeese get rid of Laurel now, please please please? The thing about the team feeling off....it does, it really does. But I really think it's just Laurel. There'd be no reason for the whole "everyone's equal" thing if it wasn't for her. No one expects Speedy to be on the same skill level as Green Arrow. I think Thea would fit into the team just fine - it's Laurel that's causing the problem. Just my opinion. :(

Although, to be fair, it's possible that it's hard for Oliver to move like he used to in that bulky new suit. Lol. ;)

Edited October 29, 2015 by Starfish35

[InsertWordHere]

 Did you even answer her when she asked who she was? Nope you didn't. So Sara is potentially not only crazy, but running around SC with no idea STILL of who the ever loving hell she is. Great. Super job, really.

Yeah, the fact that both Laurel and Quentin neglected to answer Sara's one question really bothered me. I thought I would never see a more callous resurrection on tv than the time Buffy's friends forgot that ripping her soul from the afterlife would cause it to reunite with a body that was currently in a coffin six feet underground, but at least someone answered her when she asked, "Is this hell?" 

[thegirlsleuth]

Hi all!  I've been lurking on the board for months, enjoying everyone's comments and speculation.  I've wanted to comment over the last few weeks, but didn't want my first comment on the board to consist of flying into an apoplectic rage over Laurel on the spoiler thread for bringing her sister back from the dead and chaining her up.  But now I can do it in this thread!  

 

No, I'll skip it--the self-centeredness that Laurel has displayed through this whole ordeal has been well covered already--but I do want to say that I was struck tonight by what interesting storylines both Thea and Lance could have if they were disentangled from Laurel.  Thea is in over her head in a different way than Oliver was his first year, his rage constant and hers a crashing bloodlust.  Paul Blackthorne shone in everything tonight--the heavy drama scenes with Amell and Caity, the tense face off with McDonough, and even the witty one liners--and I'm really interested in see where he falls in what promises to be a battle royale between Darhk and Oliver provided it doesn't turn into another "I'll do anything to save my daughter" storyline. 

 

One thing this episode really brought home for me is that they are intentionally is having the other characters pull Oliver's moves from earlier seasons.  Thea's party girl drug buy (with an assist from Diggle),  much like Felicity's terrible excuses to Curtis about the playing cards and Oliver's sympathy with Diggle over keeping secrets were all moves he pulled in the past. I think they are doing it intentionally and I wonder how much it will be threaded through the rest of the season.

 

In conclusion:  ugh, Laurel.

[Starfish35]

I do want to say that I was struck tonight by what interesting storylines both Thea and Lance could have if they were disentangled from Laurel.

I completely agree. Laurel seems to drag every character around her down. :(

[lemotomato]

So Thea hired all the interns and wrote Oliver's speech. Also she's a (off screen) successful business owner. Why doesn't she run for mayor?

Well for one thing, she gets homicidal urges every other week that she hasn't found a treatment for yet, so...

[Actionmage]

Despite the wonderful talking points brought up here in the thread, the preview seems to have shut down cogent thought for me.

 

Maybe next week will be a kick-in-the-ass and jumpstart  a more active period of the season!

[inconstancy]

This episode was really boring.

 

I laughed and laughed at the first Lance Family basement scene. Good grief, how deluded can Laurel get? I also like that she spent basically a whole season worrying about her dad's poor, fragile heart, but decided it would be fine now to spring his formerly-dead, now-feral, actually-growling daughter on him in a dark basement. Are we sure she isn't secretly trying to kill him?

 

Quentin. Ugh. "LOLOL, you want me to endorse you for mayor? You're even more deluded than my daughter! Oh, by the way, I don't have the resources to deal with the evidence for this really important case I'm working on, so handle that for me. Okay, you can get out now." Let me just Google the steps to making a voodoo doll for a fictional character...

 

Hey, corrupt cops, you don't want to be criminals? Here's an idea! Since you're not bound by the premise of the show to be stuck forever trying to "save" this hellhole of a city, why not move somewhere else to feed your families? Bonus: you don't have to work under Quentin Lance!

 

I liked Thea pretending to be her old, drug-using self, and organising Oliver's mayor staff/campaign. I liked Oliver's earnestness in his campaign speech, even if I think wanting to be mayor is one of the dumbest ideas he's ever had. I liked Diggle's approving smile at the end. And Felicity! If there was ever an episode that proved to me that I will watch anything with Felicity Smoak in it, it was this one. There are very few characters who make me smile as much as she does, or for whom I'm willing to sit through total snooze fests. <3

Edited October 29, 2015 by inconstancy

[Happy Harpy]

Yeah, not the best outing so far.

 

I liked the flashback better than last week. I think that Bad Guy finding the equipment is the equivalent of "Oliver is taken on camera with the Arrow gear" back in S1 and there will be a twist.

 

The Plot took over in this one, with big, obvious ropes. The difference of level between the two action scenes was jarring; obviously Team Arrow + Because Comics couldn't take them down in the beginning because otherwise there was no more plot of the week. Same with Oliver being taken hostage, it was to allow Quentin's speech.

I feel the same about Felicity delaying the Ray stuff "because it's too painful", even more odd to me than when she didn't check immediately what was wrong with her phone. Of course she's sad, she was with this guy even though I'd rather forget about it, she's a human being and she has a good heart, but she's always looked more like a "rip the band-aid" kind of person. And there was no hint of sadness given so far -not that I want her mourning for 50 Shades, but just a little sad sigh, or mentioning to Oliver that she took over because Ray died and Oliver hugging her to comfort her, would have been enough. 

Of course, everything happens because of Plot, but here it was showing.

 

I'm so furious to what they've done to Quentin since mid-S3. He was bitter and unfair at times, even back in S1, but his integrity was always his defining feature for me. P.Blackthorne deserves better than that crap about Quentin getting embroiled with Darhk. He sold everything the writers were trying to sell, kudos to him. I was glad for Oliver calling him out, but I felt the same way as in 4x01 when the others were piling on Oliver: Complain to the writers who made a mess out of this character for Plot.

And I'll never, ever forgive Laurel for the agony he went through. "She's not here"...this broke my heart. I didn't even feel hate, but utter disgust for her character.

 

I hope it isn't Ray who was provoking the power issues in the lair. Way to look like an ass before you're even back.

 

There were good things, loved the Thea/Oliver. Loved that Thea and Diggle got enthusiastic about the new Arrowcave. Loved that Thea was enthusiastic about the ring. Curtis is still a nice character (lost a brother = bonding with Diggle ahead?) and Damian shows potential as a Magnificent Bastard -he's not there yet for me.

 

Laurel...I did facepalm. Not a figure of speech. I knew the photo thing was coming, and still I actually facepalmed because that was so pathetic and ridiculous and the acting didn't allow me to feel anything for her. At the same time, I was weirdly relieved because when she crouched near Sara, I thought she was going to give her a treat like to a dog. If only the show wasn't so eager to paint her as in the right, if they painted her as going through a nervous breakdown, if other characters were allowed to be mad at her and call her out on her behavior, I'd be able to stomach this storyline better.

I told myself before watching the episode that I knew it would be bad, I knew I wouldn't like it, I should just ignore her. But it's always so much worse on screen that I can't, especially in her scenes with Team Arrow where she is, for me, a bitchy, entitled Eeyore standing there with her cloud of rain and sourness ruining what usually are my favorite parts of the show.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[looptab]

So...I wasn't that much against this episode as a lot of you were. I guess now I'm just used to enjoy the things I enjoy and not paying attention to the rest.

 

Like, I loved that Thea thought Oliver had proposed. I had had a fleeting thought they might do something like this, after seeing the "big announcement" in the preview, and seeing it actually on screen left me with a huge smile on my face. Also, the rest of the team's reactions to the announcement was fun.* They had a point, haha. 

 

*It works if you just ignore Laurel. Honestly, I can't even remember her scenes to be able to comment them. (Aside from the "Naptime!" one, or the one where that guy messes with the Canary Cry, because LOLs).

 

I like the new lair (although I miss the Foundry), and Felicity having trouble with her chair was hilarious. Loved the Thea/Oliver scenes, and Oliver noticing something is bothering Felicity. The scenes with Curtis are fine, and right now I'm not worried about Felicity being far from the action, though I understand people's concerns. I also didn't have a problem with her reactions to the Ray stuff, it seemed real and justified to me.

 

The parts with Felicity being “nerotic” ending up being nothing.

 I don't think that comment referred to just this episode, but more to those that are yet to come,

when she actually finds out Ray's still alive

. So I'm sure there'll be something more to that.
 
 

We haven't gotten any scenes getting inside Laurels head, seeing what she is feeling with bringing back Sara, struggling with her situation, actually using this to develop her even the slightest. 
Oliver/Quentin scenes were the best, they actually put effort into it.

 I think we'll get some insight into what she's thinking next episode. Afterall, she has some explaining to do.
 

Also great:
 
Laurel takes Lance down to her creepy basement where she keeps her zombie feral sister in chains. Lance's reaction: Low-key what? Laurel? Sara? What?
 
Oliver sits in the dark in Lance's apartment. Lance's reaction: OH MY GOD WHAT THE FUCK I HAVE A HEART CONDITION I COULD HAVE DROPPED DEAD RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW ARE YOU TRYING TO KILL ME?

LMAO to this!

 

Anyways, great scenes with Oliver and Lance, although I have to wait for the transcript because, after four years, I still can't understand half the things Lance says. *hangs head in shame*

The FBs seem to be heading somewhere, at least. 

And yeah, welcome back Sally. We've missed you.

Edited October 29, 2015 by looptab

[Actionmage]

I hope it isn't Ray who was provoking the power issues in the lair. Way to look like an ass before you're even back.

 

I keep seeing this and , while not a fan of Early-going Ray, he's trying to get people to realize he is not dead and needs help. That's not dickish; that's desperation. He's been considered dead for six months.  He's smaller than dust bunny. How is he supposed to get  folks' attention?

 

And yeah, welcome back Sally. We've missed you.

 

::joins the chorus::

[SleepDeprived]

Boy, this episode was unremarkable. Eh. It was chock full of lols, though. It could've been my semi-inebriated state but I swear I burst out laughing at quite a number of points while watching (thanks, Laurel!). I don't think that's what the show/those scenes intended, though. Props to the writers for being consistent with the fact that every villain definitely knows where Laurel lives so it's very likely that she doesn't even have any neighbors whatsoever in that whole complex (or, at least, that floor). All the break-ins and fights going on over there probably drove away the tenants which is why keeping Sara in the basement might actually have been some smart thinking on Laurel's part? Nah. Still dumb and horrific.

 

Rutina Wesley was great. Her character's motivations (and that whole plot, really) sucked but at least she gave it her all in her scenes that I almost could've believed her nonsensical reasons --of being a cop who wanted to believe she wasn't a criminal but was actually doing good things for the city, by killing drug pushers/gangbangers, while also being a thief and a murderer-- if they had given that convoluted af storyline some actual sense when they plotted it. I wish she could've played someone else who could come back more often because I thought that was really good acting compared to others who have been (and are currently) on the show.

 

I was entertained by all of Thea's scenes (I'm enjoying Thea so damn much this year), almost all of Oliver's scenes, most of Felicity's scenes, the little bit of Diggle that we got, a smidgen of that good ol'e Lance family drama, "The Bald(ing) and The Batshit" (all thanks to PB being a pretty good actor), and none of the flashbacks. That's about it.

 

4. I know that Laurel and Thea managed to smuggle a corpse into New Jersey without anyone noticing, but how did they smuggle a raving, chained up woman out of New Jersey without anyone noticing? And if we're still meant to think that Nanda Parbat is outside the U.S. (I've stopped thinking this, but I think that's still supposed to be the general idea) look, I'm the first to agree that U.S. Customs and Immigration and Homeland Security misses things all the time, but a raving woman in chains trying to bite people and strangle them?  This is not really not like the typical person trying to sneak across the U.S. border.

 

In a nice, padded (hopefully) crate with adequate air holes, of course. With proper labeling of "LIVE ANIMAL IN TRANSIT" and "This Side Up" and "WARNING: This Animal Bites", like this:

 

I mean, it's not like Laurel's been treating Sara any better than a wild animal that needs to be tamed, has she? The stench from those rotten leathers, the rattling of the chains, and the snarling from Sara was probably enough to fool Customs. Gah, this is just a terrible storyline. Of all the ways to bring Sara back, they just had to choose this one? And of all the ways that Laurel could've acted, why the writers chose to have her come off utterly clueless, seemingly delusional, and just lacking in compassion that she couldn't even give Sara the basic comforts while chained down in a cold basement is mind-boggling to me. Poor Sara.

[morakot]

I think that would be the only solution -- I doubt Sara has a valid passport these days that wouldn't trigger at least one of her deaths, and I can't see Thea and Laurel Weekend at Bernie-ing her into coach.

[bijoux]

Liza Warner, fess up. You're Malcolm Merlyn in drag, aren't you? That logic was straight out of Merlyn guidebook.

 

The episode actually had some meat that I really liked. If only the skeleton of it all was better. Like, Thea? Aside from ignoring the mad woman in the basement was pretty great. Excited and funny, and loving in regards to her brother. I actually didn't read her reaction about the news as knowing about the ring, more her putting Dig's words about a non-stop grin and a big announcement together and coming to the obvious conclusion. Dig even wiggled his eyebrows, making me think he was on the same train of thought. And it was lovely. Though I do like the idea of Oliver having spilled the beans to the both of them and they're waiting around, like, what's the hold up, man?

 

Curtis' analysis of the Green Arrow being a 5'2 guy from Data Processing was excellent. Lifts? I laughed for 20 seconds straight. I also laughed at a lot of Lance's lines as well. You're here more often than when you were being called in for punching paparazzi. What, you have a key? Kidding. If only they weren't clouded over by dumbassery and a horrible sense of entitlement. Yes, I hunted you down and helped strip you of your secret crime fighting identity, but where were you when I needed you? Oh, go and get killed. But first I need you to examine this evidence for me. Was that there before? Because I haven't picked up on it until now and it's actually the thing that's always driven me bonkers about Laurel, the sense of I deserve this, when no, you don't, you haven't earned it.

 

 

I did find the mayor stuff kind of entertaining.  I just hope Oliver doesn't run unopposed, because I want to see a rival that is even more unlikely then him.  Like one of the past villains or something.  Like, say, Count Vertigo got all his charges dropped somehow, so he's running and promising everyone free healthcare benefits, which may or may not include a certain type of drug he is familiar with.  Just go crazy!

 

Oh my Lord, that would be amazing. Do it, show!

 

I'd totally forgotten that. Thanks! That still leaves me pretty confused though, since Oliver and Yao Fei didn't really spend that much time together after that, right? Certainly not enough time for Vulcan nose pinching techniques. And if he learned it back in the first season, why hasn't flashback Oliver used it since?

Maybe Yao Fei had taught Shado in the art of it and she passed it on to Oliver off screen?

 

I'd like to think that the person who wrote this episode hates Laurel as much as I do. Between her "Canary Cry" getting neutralized and Sara chain-choking her, I'd expect "#LaurelFail" or "#CanaryFail" to become a thing. I know I was cheering. And how stoked must Rutina Wesley have been to been on a show where she wouldn't be as hated as she was on True Blood?

I laughed at both of those instances. If only the neutralization worked on her voice box as well so that I would be saved from that awful condescending, "Who's this? Is is Daddy?" Shut the eff up. She's back from the dead and crazy, not two. That was downright the worst moment of the episode for me.

 

I've noticed you guys mentioning Laurel's posturing. I have sadly become immune to it since it's her "fighting style". Stand in profile, pant like you've just finished a sex marathon (bonus points for a heaving chest), let your hair fly in the gentle breeze. Whatever.

 

 I think we'll get some insight into what she's thinking next episode. Afterall, she has some explaining to do.

Laurel Lance does not need to explain herself no one. Pffft.

 

I keep seeing this and , while not a fan of Early-going Ray, he's trying to get people to realize he is not dead and needs help. That's not dickish; that's desperation. He's been considered dead for six months.  He's smaller than dust bunny. How is he supposed to get  folks' attention?

 

::joins the chorus::

I mind that he does it at the lair where crucial, life threatening stuff is happening. Do it at PT.

[SleepDeprived]

Oh! Bee-tee-dubs (hahaha! Lol, NO!! I hate this line so much), I'm curious about that mystery box (or whatever's in it) that Darhk was looking at, with pride/wonder/excitement(?) during Oliver's speech montage, at the end of the episode. I suspect that it's something that's very important to him and that we'll, likely, be seeing it in future episodes.

[bijoux]

"The Bald(ing) and The Batshit"

 

Hee. Thanks for that.

 

Oh! Bee-tee-dubs (hahaha! Lol, NO!! I hate this line so much), I'm curious about that mystery box (or whatever's in it) that Darhk was looking at, with pride/wonder/excitement(?) during Oliver's speech montage, at the end of the episode. I suspect that it's something that's very important to him and that we'll, likely, be seeing it in future episodes.

Maybe it's something connected to the Lazarus Pit since he's been made aware it's been recently used.

 

When Laurel asked Felicity about what Thea meant about her wearing "it", her facial expression shifted. I feel like I've spotted the Loch Ness monster. It's alive!

[looptab]

Forgot to say, what's in the box??? The one DD had during the closing montage. 

Also, the exchange between DD and Lance might have been the best thing in the episode.

[bijoux]

Poor Oliver. He seems destined to be disappointed by his parental figures. First Robert, then Moira, now Quentin. You could really feel how affected he was by this turn of events. Really, that was a great scene. Hang with Walter, please.

[cambridgeguy]

Candidate for mayor seems like a horrible job for someone trying to maintain a double life as a vigilante. 

 

Reporter: Mr. Queen, why do you keep disappearing at odd times?  Oliver: Uh, I'm cheating on my girlfriend! 

 

Lance should just buy his tombstone now.  Maybe there's an early bird discount.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Maybe Felicity didn't want to listen to the recording because she was afraid it would be Ray screaming, "Damn it, Felicity! This is all your fault! After all I did to stalk you and invade your privacy and then shower you with gifts, now I'm going to die!"

 

But seriously, I was fine with her crying. I think that part of her never truly grieved for Ray because he died and then she left town with Oliver to be schmoopy. I also think that part of her feels very guilty about his death and that she has been smushing that down. On top of all that, it must be weird for her to finally listen to his message, especially knowing that they were his last words, like Ray coming back from the dead for an instant. Given all of those things, it's understandable that she would cry.

 

On a shallow note, I can't wait to see a Team Arrow dance party on the new disco floor in the lair!

 

I forgot in my List of Lance Family Complaints to note that Quentin had the audacity to say to Oliver that he joined up with DD two months ago because he needed help and "you weren't here." Are you?? serious???? I...hate everyone in that family other than Sara so much. I hope Sara takes on a brand-new identity when she moves on, because she doesn't deserve to have to bear that name anymore.

I got really annoyed too. First Quentin spends all this time bitching about the Arrow and how vigilantism isn't the right way to deal with crime. Then Oliver leaves Starling City, which allows Quentin and the police force to deal with SC's crime without Oliver. Then Oliver comes back and Quentin bitches about how he abandoned the city.

 

 

 

the issue here ISN'T olicity like you claim, it's the fact that they just don't care about Laurel Lance.

Finally, the writers and I agree on something!

Edited October 29, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Happy Harpy]

So...I wasn't that much against this episode as a lot of you were. I guess now I'm just used to enjoy the things I enjoy and not paying attention to the rest.

This was the weakest episode so far for me, but "Still better than S3". There's no comparison because even in the five I've seen, there was that general suckage and nonsense that tainted everything for me whereas I feel that this season is going way better and is way more enjoyable (aside from the same problem plaguing the show since S1 imo and that won't go away).

 

I keep seeing this and , while not a fan of Early-going Ray, he's trying to get people to realize he is not dead and needs help. That's not dickish; that's desperation. He's been considered dead for six months.  He's smaller than dust bunny. How is he supposed to get  folks' attention?

As said, the problem for me is the moment he asks for help, because he hindered Team Arrow's mission in several occurences, and maybe the place, because he must know with his big brain that some urgent, life-and-death business is quite prone to happen in the Arrowcave.

I had no problem with him hacking Felicity's phone and I wouldn't mind if he hacked her and Oliver's TV, home computer or even their microwave.

 

Oh, I cheered for Sally, but I cheered even louder at Bodyguard Diggle. I can't help, I love Bodyguard Diggle. It reminds me of his first appearance and how he had me at the first respecfully snarky smirk.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[Genki]

Well...there was that.

 

The 1st scene was a really fun scene, except for Laurel's hypocrisy, not only did she make the comment about Oliver judging her and then almost immediately turn around judge him, she also made a comment about Oliver being in over his head, like she didn't have her soulless, traumatised, mentally unstable, ex-assasin sister chained in the common-acces basement of her apartment building, without water, amenities, blankets or entertainment. (I have to judge Thea little for not knowing what Laurel is doing, in an otherwise strong episode for her)

 

How many more times can Laurel traumatise her father and have him forgive her?

After lying to him for months about Sara's Death, impersonating her and then not preparing him for the shock of the ressurection reveal especially when he was feeling compelled to put down the "not"Sara he was presented with. And after all that effort to bring Sara back, she hung back when she she he had the gun drawn ready to execute Zombie! Sara.

 

The Taser fall was laughable, it was so overacted. 

 

Way too much LOT set-up, i'm already sick of Ray Palmer and we haven't seen him yet. So I can understand him wanting to contact Felicity, but don't mess with vital crimefighting equipment, spell "help" out in sugar or paperclips or something. I would be more excited for Sara's return if it didn't come with more Laurel hypocrisy and teflon-behaviour.

 

I'm glad Thea still has the night club, (complete with an empty lair and a cot and shower and cage...see where I'm going with this Laurel????) Nice moments between her and Oliver and Her and Diggle. Loved Thea pointing to her ring finger when she expected the engagement announcement.

 

Oliver/Lance confrontation was well acted.

[paigow]

Note to Bad Cops...When opening offshore bank accounts, try not to use your own name and pick a country that has not repealed bank privacy laws.