S04.E04: Beyond Redemption

[BkWurm1]

It felt like a year while I was watching.

I didn't exactly find it boring (except the pointless flashbacks were instead of showing Oliver becoming dark they have someone look into his eyes and just see it) but I was surprised just how long the episode was. 

 

 

Oh yeah, Felicity needs to stop saying B T dubs because it reminds me of Ray (yeah, I got the hint, show) and I hate it. Just no.

I swear it's not just a Ray thing. I've had it randomly show up in two other shows this season.  The word police needs to squash that quick. 

[apinknightmare]

I guess I was expecting more from her storyline because they almost sold it like a multi-episode arc by saying she was part of the anti-Vigilante task force. I really thought that would be a thing. 

 

I mean, I guess technically she was part of the task force, since she was an ORIGINAL member, but I thought it was going to be a multi-ep thing too, and that she was going to be a good guy. 

[wonderwall]

I was SO BORED with the episode that I had to do something!

You were so bored so you watched it more carefully? :p 

[Angel12d]

 

But WTF is with Felicity being all fucking weepy about Ray.  She wasn't in love with him! And the whole HE WAS MY BOYFRIEND WAHH.  WTF show just WTF??  She used his suit to save Oliver. She made it clear to him that she wanted to be with Oliver.  UGH

 

Yeah, EBR went a bit over the top with the Ray thing. We know she wasn't in love with Ray seeing as that was a whole plot point in s3 but the tears were too much. I can understand her not wanting to relive things or hear his voice but at the same time I was like, huh? That whole thing made me uncomfortable. I'm not worried though, I feel like I should stress that. But EBR definitely overplayed it which I had a feeling she would anyway. 

[dtissagirl]

Oh, and all of you guys who were complaining flashback Oliver wasn't dark enough last week? HE IS NOW, THEY SAID THE WORD "DARK" LIKE SEVENTEEN TIMES IN THE SAME SCENE.

[Angel12d]

I swear it's not just a Ray thing. I've had it randomly show up in two other shows this season.  The word police needs to squash that quick. 

 

I literally cringe when she says it. Please stop. PLEASE.

[AyChihuahua]

I actually think I'm on Damien Darhk's side at this point.  Star City really does suck ass.  Everybody, just move away and let it die!

[Angel12d]

Oh, and all of you guys who were complaining flashback Oliver wasn't dark enough last week? HE IS NOW, THEY SAID THE WORD "DARK" LIKE SEVENTEEN TIMES IN THE SAME SCENE.

 

AND HE'S GOT THAT LOOK IN HIS EYE. HE'S SO DARK!

[InsertWordHere]

The top secret ARGUS satellite communications equipment didn't even require a frigging sign-on password.  The bad guy just opened it up and started reading.  My hotmail account has a password.  THIS WEBSITE REQUIRES A PASSWORD.

Speaking of passwords, did my eyes deceive me or was Ray Super Techy Palmer's password actually "password?"

[kismet]

best scenes of the night:

Lance and Oliver

Oliver and Thea walking down memory lane

Oliver speech and how the truly important people in his life were there.

 

Sara escaping her chains, i was shocked it took her this long.

Lance prospects at being in the grave are getting greater, and I am not happy about it!!

 

Stupid idea of the episode:

congratulation to whoever it was who said the new lair is gonna be beneath the HQ... I can't even.

Yea, pretty much agree with this list...

 

Except I think that QL's chances are less, because after OQ sent him on his double-agent track wouldn't he be acting a little more guilty at the gravesite? It was one thing if QL got himself into his own mess (which he did), it became a whole other ballgame when OQ asked QL to get closer because he was their best way to get to DD. If QL dies as a double agent, than some of his blood is on OQ and at the gravesite OQ was explicit that this death was not his fault. But who knows? These are the same writers that gave us so much stupid with the resurrection story.

[AyChihuahua]

You were so bored so you watched it more carefully? :p 

I was paying attention to pointless details because the storylines were so boring.  

[Soulfire]

Even though I didn't feel this episode, here, have some pretty gifs --

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GirlvsTV]

There was probably about a sum total of 10 mins of this episode I found somewhat interesting.

I enjoyed the mayor stuff, but I'm really tired of people laughing in Oliver's face even if some of the points they made were valid. I'd feel differently if the last 3 eps hadn't included everyone being crappy to him, but they did and I'm beyond tired of it. Also, did they say PT was funding OQ's campaign?! WTF? These writers are so lazy.

The brief Oliver/Thea scene was good. Nice to see a more supportive, mature moment between them w/o Thea being a super brat.

Oliver telling off Quentin was aces. Finally.

The Felicity/Curtis scenes were fun, even though they were R. Palmer adjacent.

The rest of the ep was a mish-mash of things I either hated or massively didn't care about. The Lance Family Drama Hour was boring b/c I care absolute nothing for Quentin or LL, so all that was just a big eyeroll/snore. The bad cop storyline was lame, felt like an afterthought and was a total waste of Rutina W. The flashbacks are also a complete snooze. At least last year we had Tatsu.

I HATED the god-awful Because Comics posing, sashaying, scream-facing and hair flipping in this ep. Terrible. Also disliked that this is the 4th episode in a row where a street level villain has gotten the better of Oliver. Total BS.

Also, I want to be happy for Felicity's storyline but they had to go and remind us about the s3 Dark Ages of her relationship with Ray and I rolled my eyes all the way through it. I just can't. I never believed she felt anything for him last year, so it's difficult to understand the level of distress she was exhibiting. Also, I hate Ray and can't fathom why anyone would cry over him.

[apinknightmare]

Speaking of passwords, did my eyes deceive me or was Ray Super Techy Palmer's password actually "password?"

 

It was - it was a little joke between him and Felicity last year. 

[EmeraldArcher]

Also: Lolololaurel asking Felicity what did Thea think she was wearing was equal parts THE MOST AWKWARDEST and hilarious.

That actually got my hopes up that the opposite hallway scene is Laurel giving her support to Oliver's plan to propose to Felicity. That's the only one that wouldn't totally suck. Oliver doesn't need Laurel's support because she's mostly irrelevant in his personal life now, but after S3's  "I love your family" right before QL clocked him, I guess we're supposed to believe there's still genuine friendship there.

[Angel12d]

Allow me an Olicity moment but what's an Olicity fan gotta do to get some hand holding guys? I just want them to hold hands when they walk into places. Though I suppose the moment they could have been holding hands, Felicity had to show her ring finger so Thea could wonder where the ring was.

 

Still, gimmie!

[HighHopes]

Speaking of passwords, did my eyes deceive me or was Ray Super Techy Palmer's password actually "password?"

That was actually Felicity's password last season. Ray was over working himself, so she locked him out and that was the password she set up. 

[InsertWordHere]

It was - it was a little joke between him and Felicity last year. 

Thanks! Shows how much I paid attention to their scenes last year! I thought it was going to be ATOM. 

[AyChihuahua]

Yea, pretty much agree with this list...

 

Except I think that QL's chances are less, because after OQ sent him on his double-agent track wouldn't he be acting a little more guilty at the gravesite? It was one thing if QL got himself into his own mess (which he did), it became a whole other ballgame when OQ asked QL to get closer because he was their best way to get to DD. If QL dies as a double agent, than some of his blood is on OQ and at the gravesite OQ was explicit that this death was not his fault. But who knows? These are the same writers that gave us so much stupid with the resurrection story.

Nah, Quentin got himself into bed with DD.  Oliver gave him the chance to redeem himself.  Old Oliver still would have blamed himself, because Old Oliver blamed himself for everything, up to and including Thea getting a papercut.  But New Oliver is much healthier, so he'll see taking out DD, etc., and taking care of the city as his responsibility, which Quentin passed on to him.  

 

I'd say Quentin's basically redeemed now.  Makes me want to vomit, because I have a good memory, but whatevs.  

[BkWurm1]

But WTF is with Felicity being all fucking weepy about Ray.  She wasn't in love with him! And the whole HE WAS MY BOYFRIEND WAHH.  WTF show just WTF??  She used his suit to save Oliver. She made it clear to him that she wanted to be with Oliver.  UGH

 

I think it's the guilt factor.  He was a friend and he loved her, she kind of stomped on his heart and then he died and she wasn't even around and not only that, he gave her his entire freaking company but at the same time she was busy being super happy with Oliver.  So, yeah, complicated emotions. That and I tear up hearing last messages from the victim type thing even when they do it on something like Criminal Minds so yeah, if I actually knew the person and these were their last words before death, I'd be a bit weepy too.  (Especially if I was alone.  When I'm alone I let myself cry at commercials) 

[Primal Slayer]

God this show annoys the hell out of me. If you aren't Oliver/Olicty then your storyline is completely sidelined. The fact that they have given us the barest of bones with Laurel bringing back Sara makes me so pissed. We haven't gotten any scenes getting inside Laurels head, seeing what she is feeling with bringing back Sara, struggling with her situation, actually using this to develop her even the slightest. And now Sara is free which means she can't even be the one to reach out for help because she feels the need to, she HAS to reach out to them now that her sister is loose. If I had the will power I would just quit this show.

 

Rutina was wasted, I expected her to at least be used for a couple of episodes and get a good use out of her.

 

Oliver/Quentin scenes were the best, they actually put effort into it.

[Carrie Ann]

This was A Mess, holy cow. I'm not even sure how I feel about everything else in the ep, but I do know how I felt about all things Lance Family. Not great, Bob.

 

On the negative side, we still have this problem where it's like one story exists completely outside of the rest of the show. But on the positive side, at least this year, it's Laurel on that show and not Felicity! So it's way more convenient for me, because I suspect I'll like this episode much better on my 2nd watch, when I skip all the flashbacks AND the Laurel scenes.

 

I can't believe how anticlimactic Lance seeing Sara was. I can't believe how nonchalant Laurel was about the whole thing. I can't believe how devoid of emotion and drama that all felt. I can't believe it was tucked into an episode as the C Plot??? My God, this show could not care less about Laurel. Also her poses and 'tude were seriously OTT this episode, and totally incongruous with what was going on on her show, where her super traumatized sister just came back to life and LL's acting like she's just waiting for her feral foster kitty to poke its head out from under the bed.

[InsertWordHere]

Allow me an Olicity moment but what's an Olicity fan gotta do to get some hand holding guys? I just want them to hold hands when they walk into places.

He kind of pulled her with him when they walked to the secret elevator if that helps.

[calliope1975]

Typically, I rush home and watch the show through ways  because I don't want to wait to watch it on West Coast time. I avoid the boards because I don't want to be spoiled. Twenty minutes into this one, I'm checking for comments and my attention completely wandered away. In short, I was bored and whelmed. 

 

I don't have enough synonyms for what a horrible person Laurel is. Way to be concerned for your dad's heart. Way to treat your sister like utter crap. Such an utter failure of a character.

 

After one comment, Thea seemed blase' about keeping Sara chained up in a basement. Has it been mentioned that Sara was chained up in a basement? I'd like that noted on the record. In chains. In a basement.

 

Lance can step off asking for help from Oliver when he shits on him at every turn. The scene with PB/SA was good, but ehh, I'm over the Lance drama and his hypocrisy. 

 

Curtis/EK continues to be a delight and excellent addition to the cast. And Sally was back! It's been too long girlfriend. Much too long. 

 

The flashbacks are a bore, and Poppy isn't working for me. Shado made me want to find out what was going on in her life in the flashbacks. Poppy doesn't have the same presence. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

That was a weird episode. So much going on, without really moving anything along that much? 

 

Laughed at Thea's enthusiastic reaction to Oliver and Felicity's possible engagement. Now we know she's all for it. Also, Digg thought engagement as well, me thinks. He kinda implied it with the "big announcement" and "permanent grin" reference plus the eyebrow wiggles.

 

Everybody's reaction in the elevator was spot on, except for Laurel (of course). Thea was excited. Oliver and Felicity were equally excited and anxious. Even Digg was impressed. Laurel ... she looked pissed. I have no idea why. 

 

Felicity sliding in her chair because she's not yet used to it (and the shiny, slippery floor) was comic gold. According to Lexi Alexander on Twitter, EBR came up with that. Lexi said she has "fantastic instincts."

 

Rutina was all kinds of badass. I knew there was something wrong with the SCPD when they looked so capable at the beginning of the ep. Also, they were killing criminals. Pissed that after a speech by Quentin, she gave up. REALLY?!?! LAME! 

 

Paul Blackthorne will always be dear to me so I forgive Quentin quite easily. That scene between SA and PB was just fantastic all around. Major kudos to both actors.

 

Laurel falling oh-so-gracefully, arranging her hair, then quickly shutting her eyes, after being stunned had my entire living room laughing (viewing party; so much snark). OK, back later.

 

Oh, oh, Laurel falls under friends, Thea falls under family, Felicity under loved ones, Digg among people Oliver trusts, Quentin among those he learns to trust again (or something to that effect) during the montage during O's speech.

[apinknightmare]

God this show annoys the hell out of me. If you aren't Oliver/Olicty then your storyline is completely sidelined. The fact that they have given us the barest of bones with Laurel bringing back Sara makes me so pissed. We haven't gotten any scenes getting inside Laurels head, seeing what she is feeling with bringing back Sara, struggling with her situation, actually using this to develop her even the slightest. And now Sara is free which means she can't even be the one to reach out for help because she feels the need to, she HAS to reach out to them now that her sister is loose. If I had the will power I would just quit this show.

 

Rutina was wasted, I expected her to at least be used for a couple of episodes and get a good use out of her.

 

Oliver/Quentin scenes were the best, they actually put effort into it.

 

Olicity isn't really getting any development though? They're pretty much in the background. 

 

And it doesn't even look like Laurel asks for help, because the Canadian preview shows Oliver telling Laurel that Sara's alive - so it seems like he finds out from someone who isn't Laurel. 

[Angel12d]

I'll give this episode one thing, there were some really great sweeping scenery shots. I like that they're broadening what sets they use too. 

 

God this show annoys the hell out of me. If you aren't Oliver/Olicty then your storyline is completely sidelined. 

 

Oliver is the main character. He deserves to be front and center. And Olicity weren't even a thing in this episode. They had one tiny scene. 

[Starfish35]

Lol it's still a few hours before I can watch the episode, but all the comments here have me seesawing between amused and appalled. :)

[AyChihuahua]

Oh, and all of you guys who were complaining flashback Oliver wasn't dark enough last week? HE IS NOW, THEY SAID THE WORD "DARK" LIKE SEVENTEEN TIMES IN THE SAME SCENE.

And he's AFRAID of the deep darkness deep and dark inside his deep darkness!

[catrox14]

I think it's the guilt factor.  He was a friend and he loved her, she kind of stomped on his heart and then he died and she wasn't even around and not only that, he gave her his entire freaking company but at the same time she was busy being super happy with Oliver.  So, yeah, complicated emotions. That and I tear up hearing last messages from the victim type thing even when they do it on something like Criminal Minds so yeah, if I actually knew the person and these were their last words before death, I'd be a bit weepy too.  (Especially if I was alone.  When I'm alone I let myself cry at commercials) 

 

She liked Ray, she cared about him as a human being and I can understand tearing up, feeling guilty and being freaked about hearing ANYONE's last words. That didn't bother me. 

 

What did bother me was the escalation of their short lived romance to him being her "boyfriend" combined with the way over done crying implied  a far more emotional connection between them than IMO was warranted out of their relationship. It felt like a retcon of their relationship to set up some issues for Olicity. And I don't like it.

[Angel12d]

He kind of pulled her with him when they walked to the secret elevator if that helps.

 

You know what? It does help. *cuddles moment forever*

[dtissagirl]

I think the reason I actually like it when Felicity cries is because I'm a crier. Like, I was bored to tears in this ep, and I still cried like twice? Once with hiccups and hugging my legs and everything when Oliver told Lance he wanted his approval.

 

So: REPRESENT US CRIERS, FELICITY. I STAND WITH YOU.

 

:)

[apinknightmare]

Oliver is the main character. He deserves to be front and center. And Olicity weren't even a thing in this episode. They had one tiny scene. 

 

Seriously. Apart from the stuff in Star City in the premiere, Olicity has been relegated to a few scenes that are actually character development instead of ship development for the most part. Laurel's storyline sucks because the writers didn't write it better. And they aren't doing it at the expense of any other storylines, because none of them are that great right now. 

Edited October 29, 2015 by apinknightmare

[theacostov]

What did bother me was the escalation of their short lived romance to him being her "boyfriend" combined with the way over done crying implied  a far more emotional connection between them than IMO was warranted out of their relationship. It felt like a retcon of their relationship to set up some issues for Olicity. And I don't like it.

 

Yeah I agree, it felt like S3, where over the top, unnecessary, manufactured angst was created for Olicity through Ray. Looks like his purpose on this show remains the same!

[InsertWordHere]

And he's AFRAID of the deep darkness deep and dark inside his deep darkness!

It's almost like the deep darkness is in his bones.

[foreverevolving]

Regarding the entrance to the basement: I think the entrance is through a door in the first floor hallway. I don't know how it is in apartment buildings in the US, but in Israel in multi story condo buildings (well those that were build in the last 40-ish years) there is an entrance door to the building basement on the ground floor.

I assumed that was the same in lolurel's case, since when the cop lady came it looked like she was standing in the floor hallway.

I may be wrong though.

 

Now the stupid part of it is: what sort of sane person, leaves their recently raised from the dead- crazy-soulless sister in the basement of their apartment building! what if the building owner or cleaning people the handy person or one of her neighbors went down there to, oh I don't know do laundry or whatever! 

[Primal Slayer]

I'll give this episode one thing, there were some really great sweeping scenery shots. I like that they're broadening what sets they use too. 

 

 

Oliver is the main character. He deserves to be front and center. And Olicity weren't even a thing in this episode. They had one tiny scene. 

Oliver doesn't have to be front and center every single episode, but it isn't even just about this episode specifically for either Oliver/Olicty, it's overall for me. I want them to put the same kind of time and effort into this storyline and mainly I am just beyond annoyed at this point with the writers.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Primal Slayer

[Carrie Ann]

Lance can step off asking for help from Oliver when he shits on him at every turn. The scene with PB/SA was good, but ehh, I'm over the Lance drama and his hypocrisy.

 

I forgot in my List of Lance Family Complaints to note that Quentin had the audacity to say to Oliver that he joined up with DD two months ago because he needed help and "you weren't here." Are you?? serious???? I...hate everyone in that family other than Sara so much. I hope Sara takes on a brand-new identity when she moves on, because she doesn't deserve to have to bear that name anymore.

 

Anyhoodle. One other annoying thing from the sideplots: I still don't really like or understand Felicity being so prickly with Curtis. I thought they were supposed to be friends, and he's almost always super nice and polite to her (aside from his little flubs), and she's just kind of snotty back to him? Whatever they're going for here, it's not working for me, at all. That plus the unnecessary emotion about Ray (unnecessary for ME because I'm just not into spending any more time on him on this show, not that I think Felicity is unduly upset about this, although...yeah, I don't really buy it TBH), and all the PT stuff so far is bugging me.

 

On the positive side! I do like the new lair, and I liked the Thea/Oliver scene at the end, and I did like Oliver finally being able to lay into Lance, although yeah, QL got off the hook WAY too easily here. Like daughter, like father I guess.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Oliver doesn't have to be front and center every single episode, but it isn't even just about this episode specifically for either Oliver/Olicty, it's overall for me.

 

He kinda does. The name of the show is Arrow. 

[wonderwall]

God this show annoys the hell out of me. If you aren't Oliver/Olicty then your storyline is completely sidelined. The fact that they have given us the barest of bones with Laurel bringing back Sara makes me so pissed. We haven't gotten any scenes getting inside Laurels head, seeing what she is feeling with bringing back Sara, struggling with her situation, actually using this to develop her even the slightest. And now Sara is free which means she can't even be the one to reach out for help because she feels the need to, she HAS to reach out to them now that her sister is loose. If I had the will power I would just quit this show.

 

 

Um.. They literally only got a minute of screentime this episode? I mean it's impossible for great characterization can come out of a single minute. 

[Angel12d]

Oliver doesn't have to be front and center every single episode, but it isn't even just about this episode specifically for either Oliver/Olicty, it's overall for me.

 

But it's his show…? Everything should revolve around him and everyone else should be secondary. 

[Primal Slayer]

He kinda does. The name of the show is Arrow. 

Not really. There are plenty of shows that allow their supporting characters to grow just as much as their main character and take center stage time from time.

[kismet]

Oh, and all of you guys who were complaining flashback Oliver wasn't dark enough last week? HE IS NOW, THEY SAID THE WORD "DARK" LIKE SEVENTEEN TIMES IN THE SAME SCENE.

And again the show failed because I want them to show me, not just tell me. Another fail but who's counting at this point :)

[Primal Slayer]

Um.. They literally only got a minute of screentime this episode? I mean it's impossible for great characterization can come out of a single minute. 

I wasn't talking about this episode specifically which I probably should've clarified.

[apinknightmare]

I wasn't talking about this episode specifically which I probably should've clarified.

 

Which episodes were you speaking of? Because they had about a minute of time in the last couple of eps, too. The most amount of time spent on O/F as a couple was in the premiere, and Laurel hadn't thought about grave robbing at that point, so it didn't steal time from this storyline. 

[catrox14]

Oliver doesn't have to be front and center every single episode, but it isn't even just about this episode specifically for either Oliver/Olicty, it's overall for me. I want them to put the same kind of time and effort into this storyline and mainly I am just beyond annoyed at this point with the writers.

 

He wasn't front and center for far too much of s3.  So yeah, for me,  he deserves to be 100% front and center of this entire season. I want Arrow to actually be about Oliver Queen again. 

[Angel12d]

What did bother me was the escalation of their short lived romance to him being her "boyfriend" combined with the way over done crying implied  a far more emotional connection between them than IMO was warranted out of their relationship. It felt like a retcon of their relationship to set up some issues for Olicity. And I don't like it.

 

I wouldn't be worried. Yeah it was over the top but they're just setting up some conflict (

which happens in 406

) that will get resolved pretty quickly considering this season is burning through plot right now and

Ray is off to LoT

.

[dtissagirl]

Not really. There are plenty of shows that allow their supporting characters to grow just as much as their main character and take center stage time from time.

 

That happened in THIS episode. Lance took center stage.

[calliope1975]

I started watching the Republican debate in the middle of the episode. Do you understand the seriousness of that statement? That's how bored and uninterested I was. The Republican debate!

[catrox14]

I wouldn't be worried. Yeah it was over the top but they're just setting up some conflict (

which happens in 406

) that will get resolved pretty quickly considering this season is burning through plot right now and

Ray is off to LoT

.

 

Fair points! Thanks for reminding me.