S04.E04: Beyond Redemption

[Tara Ariano]

Laurel deals with the repercussions of taking Sara to Nanda Parbat. Meanwhile, Oliver asks Capt. Lance for a favor and is surprised at what he finds out.

[EmeraldArcher]

Wow!  Loved the scene between Oliver and QL! It was a long time coming, whether or not QL was working with DD. Loved how Oliver called him out for hiding behind his daughters and for his self-righteous condescension!  I also loved how Oliver acknowledged the vulnerability he’s carried with him since he was a lost youth craving QL’s approval and discarded it for good. This was a very needed step in Oliver’s hero journey!

WTF moment: Apparently one accesses the basement via Laurel’s apartment.

[Delphi]

Caity has had an easy job thus far.

Sara: angry confused grunting/sentence fragment

[AyChihuahua]

That was so bad.  Booooooring.  Laurel is holy crap crazy and stupid.  Quentin blah blah who cares.  Hey, here's a shocker for ya, the League of Assassins-trained assassin escaped from her chains!  Who'da thunk it?  

[dtissagirl]

Yawnzzzzzzzzzsnore.

[janeta]

Seriously, they're leaving Sarah chained in a basement in the dress she was buried in?? Were they even feeding her?

And Laurel needs to just stop with the attempts to fight.

Ooh, next week looks good. :-)

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, that ep was really boring. Too much setup, and most of it for a show that isn't this one.

Edited October 29, 2015 by apinknightmare

[Angel12d]

Don't know how I feel about this one. Weird episode. Some really solid scenes but overall I was kind of bored? I have no desire to watch it again, that's for sure. 

[EmeraldArcher]

I was so flabbergasted by the level of competence shown by SCPD in the opening moments--totally short lived, though. Why are only the dirty cops good at their jobs?

[Chasity]

I can see why SA said this episode was meh. There were things that I liked about it though

 

The Good:

Thea thinking that Oliver's big news is that Felicity and him are engaged

Lance/Oliver scenes

Thea/Oliver scenes

Felicity seeing Oliver on the salmon ladder and being supportive of his campaign

Lance/DD scene

Rutina Wesley

The flashbacks seem like they are about to get interesting.

 

The Bad:

Not a fan of the lack of Diggle in this episode

Don't care about Laurel

The Ray stuff

Edited October 29, 2015 by Chasity

[apinknightmare]

Don't know how I feel about this one. Weird episode. Some really solid scenes but overall I was kind of bored? I have no desire to watch it again, that's for sure. 

 

It was all over the place IMO. A lot of development, but still boring? And I wish they'd stop with the flashbacks. ALL that literally to show that Oliver convinced the dude that Poppy was dead, and so he could find out Oliver (or someone - did he know it was Oliver?) is a spy. 

Edited October 29, 2015 by apinknightmare

[AyChihuahua]

On the plus side, the Canary Cry actually managed to throw a guy back!  You know, kinda like a roundhouse kick, so it's just as effective as a simple martial arts move!

 

Oh, and Quentin is now nicely positioned to be dead soon.

 

Such a terrible episode.

[Angel12d]

It was all over the place IMO. A lot of development, but still boring? And I wish they'd stop with the flashbacks. ALL that literally to show that Oliver convinced the dude that Poppy was dead, and so he could find out Oliver (or someone - did he know it was Oliver?) is a spy. 

 

Yeah, the pacing was really off. Nothing was allowed a moment to breathe? And the flashbacks are so dull at this point I use them for pee breaks. LMAO.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Angel12d

[theacostov]

Yeah that was really boring. Liked Thea helping with the campaign. Not much to really love. Disappointing after last week. 

[Delphi]

At least the flashbacks didn't take up a lot of time. Flashbacks in four minutes or less. I'll take that.

[benteen]

The scene with Oliver confronting Lance was outstanding.  Well done, particularly by SA. 

Despite Lance’s hypocrisy, I laughed when he said that after what happened to the recent mayors, he was hoping Oliver would win in a landside.  That and Diggle’s delivery of “Oh, you’re serious?” was great.

 

It wasn’t perfect.  Laurel continues to be an idiot and the flashbacks are more pointless than ever before.  But I like the Oliver running for Mayor stuff and Thea at the end.

Edited October 29, 2015 by benteen

[Angel12d]

I did enjoy that Thea thought Felicity would be wearing an engagement ring. So Thea knew he wanted to propose using Moira's ring and look at that! She's fine with it! Now we can shelve that debate thanks.

[foreverevolving]

best scenes of the night:

Curtis trying to figure who the Arrow is

Lance and Oliver

Oliver and Thea walking down memory lane

Oliver speech and how the truly important people in his life were there.

 

Sara escaping her chains, i was shocked it took her this long.

Lance prospects at being in the grave are getting greater, and I am not happy about it!!

 

Stupid idea of the episode:

congratulation to whoever it was who said the new lair is gonna be beneath the HQ... I can't even.

[dtissagirl]

I'm forever baffled when a TV show manages to do an entire episode without giving any new information to the audience. We already knew Oliver was gonna run for Mayor. We already knew Lance was working with DD. We already knew about Sara. We already knew Ray was coming back because it was wildly announced in the media.

 

And the most hilarious part is the first 10 minutes felt like they were setting up seventeen different storylines, and then... here, viewers, have a whole bunch of information you already know. Yawn.

[Jediknight]

What the heck Team Arrow?  You've only got 4 spots for uniforms?  Dude, not awesome, you gave away Barry's spot.  I know Cisco helped, someone should have made sure Barry had a spot.

 

Really liked the Neil Adams reference.

[theacostov]

Didn't SA say this episode was 'Meh'? I think that sums it up pretty accurately.

[Angel12d]

Oh yeah, Felicity needs to stop saying B T dubs because it reminds me of Ray (yeah, I got the hint, show) and I hate it. Just no.

[foreverevolving]

I did enjoy that Thea thought Felicity would be wearing an engagement ring. So Thea knew he wanted to propose using Moira's ring and look at that! She's fine with it! Now we can shelve that debate thanks.

huh? who on earth thought Thea wouldn't be fine with Oliver proposing to Felicity? [Edited by mod: Loliver kids talk = NOPE.]

Edited October 29, 2015 by MuuMuuChainsmoker

[Soulfire]

This episode, frankly, bored me. 

 

We already knew everything that was happening, from beginning to end, and there were no real surprises in the middle.

 

The new Arrow lair was cool, but we'd already seen that. The scene between Lance and Oliver was well acted and a long time in the making. Really liked the hint that Thea seemed to know about the ring and Oliver's intention to propose to Felicity, but would have liked to see it explored better. 

 

Otherwise, yawn.

[AyChihuahua]

Despite Lance’s hypocrisy, I laughed when he said that after what happened to the recent mayors, he was hoping Oliver would win in the landside.  That and Diggle’s delivery of “Oh, you’re serious?” was great.

That was funny.  I just can't with how quickly they're back to trusting and working with Quentin, as if he'd never led a manhunt for Oliver SIX MONTHS AGO.  And threw Roy's death in Oliver's and Thea's faces.

 

I need to stop having a good memory when I watch this show.  

 

Did like Thea supporting her big bro in the end.  Thought Lady Cop was weird and kind of boring and pointless, flashbacks totally boring (nice hiding job Flashback Oliver, you dumbass).  Laurel is completely insane and stupid, I am utterly over Quentin, and they're making me irritated at Sara, which hurts me in my soul.

 

Also, could the writers PLEASE be more consistent with TA's ass-kicking powers?  

[apinknightmare]

huh? who on earth thought Thea wouldn't be fine with Oliver proposing to Felicity? [Edited by mod: Loliver kids talk = NOPE.]

 

There were some comments on this board about Oliver being inconsiderate for using Moira's ring to propose to Felicity without Thea's blessing. Now we know he had it.

Also, is Ray messing with the power in the lair? Felicity's going to start getting messages there too, isn't she, WHEN HE SHOULDN'T EVEN KNOW WHERE IT IS.

[KenyaJ]

I spent all day looking forward to this episode, but meh. There was way too much of the Lances for me to really enjoy this, although I loved Oliver yelling at Lance. More of that, please. But that's really the only context in which I want to see any of the Lances. That scene where Laurel takes Quentin to see Sara chained up like a dog was almost comically stupid. JFC.

 

In other news, Thea knows about Oliver's desire to propose to Felicity. I was much more excited about that at the beginning of the episode before all the stupidity began.

[EmeraldArcher]

I hate to crap on another woman's appearance (unless it's Laurel's spider lashes or immovable face), but Poppy looks, um, mature!  Thank goodness the CW is deviating from depicting an impossible youthful glow under adverse conditions, and I applaud the realism of her haggard and prematurely aged visage.

 

Honestly, KC/LL looked fetching in some of the basement scenes. The crew worked some serious lighting magic to make her so soft and emotive in her scenes with Sara. 

[hogwash]

Oliver's getting nerfed HARD. It's really inconsistent. 

OK episode. 

[dtissagirl]

But hey, kudos to Caity Lotz for making edible lemonade out of rotten lemons.

[tennisgurl]

We really need more Nyssa. 

[AyChihuahua]

There were some comments on this board about Oliver being inconsiderate for using Moira's ring to propose to Felicity without Thea's blessing. Now we know he had it.

Also, is Ray messing with the power in the lair? Felicity's going to start getting messages there too, isn't she, WHEN HE SHOULDN'T EVEN KNOW WHERE IT IS.

I'm sure he pinged her GPS.  

[EmeraldArcher]

 flashbacks totally boring (nice hiding job Flashback Oliver, you dumbass). 

Right?! But, to be fair, that camouflage was obviously defective--it was hidden in grass and stuff and should be invisible to a casual passerby.  Oh, wait.  That dude was a bad guy. ARGUS should obviously spring for higher quality camo before pushing some unsuspecting fellow out of a plane. (pretty dumb--am hating the flashbacks)

[dtissagirl]

Also, is Ray messing with the power in the lair? Felicity's going to start getting messages there too, isn't she, WHEN HE SHOULDN'T EVEN KNOW WHERE IT IS.

 

The stalker always knows everything.

[AyChihuahua]

Right?! But, to be fair, that camouflage was obviously defective--it was hidden in grass and stuff and should be invisible to a casual passerby.  Oh, wait.  That dude was a bad guy. ARGUS should obviously spring for higher quality camo before pushing some unsuspecting fellow out of a plane. (pretty dumb--am hating the flashbacks)

The top secret ARGUS satellite communications equipment didn't even require a frigging sign-on password.  The bad guy just opened it up and started reading.  My hotmail account has a password.  THIS WEBSITE REQUIRES A PASSWORD.  So I guess it's more important to verify identity when discussing television shows than when infiltrating a secret drug growing/manufacturing facility on a mostly-unknown former Chinese prison island?

 

SO DUMB.  The flashbacks suck in every way they can suck...they're boring and pointless and stupid and the actors are pretty terrible (I still like second-in-command guy, but Poppy is terrible).  Lady Cop did mention slam, the drug, so there ya go with tie-in to present times.

[EmeraldArcher]

Didn't SA say this episode was 'Meh'? I think that sums it up pretty accurately.

Although I agree with that assessment, I don't think he was serious.  He has never dissed an entire episode, just specific scenes (#RoyGate2015), right? I think he's really proud of that scene with Lance; SA really likes the emotional scenes that allow him to do things differently (see what I did there?).

[AyChihuahua]

At least the flashbacks didn't take up a lot of time. Flashbacks in four minutes or less. I'll take that.

It felt like a year while I was watching.

[Angel12d]

Is Rutina Wesley only in one episode? I thought she signed on for more. She was good. That's about all I've got though.

[BkWurm1]

PB just was incredible.  And he and SA were fantastic.  The conversations in his apartment and when he fell apart in front of Sara, best dramatic stuff on this show in forever. Though Laurel suddenly flat footing it from behind the pillar stone faced and reading her lines with no emotion behind them (even  if she managed a tear) that was bad, I mean, I had to rewind to see if it was as bad as I thought and it was.  Still, I blocked it like I ‘ve learned to do.

 

 
Not as easily blocked was the painful first fight against the bad cops.  Laurel did NOTHING positive. She screamed, it got cut off, she tried to fight and that did not happen at all.  Some of the stuff she did in the hallway was fine but after she got tazed and went down she, I swear, got comfortable and decided to take a nap, that’s what it looked at, not passed out, but resting and falling asleep.  So weird, as was her cocky attitude because she changed the frequency on her choker.  Someone else made it.  Why are you acting like you did something so great?  Just the weird disconnects.

 

Like when she brought “Daddy” into her basement with no warning and let Zombie Sara scare the hell out of him.  So much wrong with leaving Sara (who could communicate, confused and alone with only the comfort of a couch cushion and some photos of the people holding her captive for comfort). 

 

 

Side note, from the way the scene went from Lance almost shooting Sara to him leaving Laurel’s apartment, apparently she has direct basement access from her apartment?? 

 

 

Enjoyed Thea supporting Oliver and believing in him when he was losing faith in himself.  I have to admit as the camera panned to Oliver alone in the dark  in his new offices, I was chanting under my breath, “please not Laurel, please not Laurel” for the inevitable person that would be coming to talk to him.  It was a nice scene.

Speaking of nice moments, hee!  Thea knows about the ring.  Hee!

 

 

The parts with Felicity being “nerotic” ending up being nothing.  It would be traumatic to hear the dying words of a friend.  I also liked finding out that her dating Ray had NOT been common knowledge.  Also bonus points that Felicity tracked the phone problem on her own. 

 

 

Good ole Sally, providing comfort in times of turmoil.  Nice to see you!!

 

 

Random thought, I think Diggle is going to be the next one to decide to leave Star City.  That comment about not wanting to raise his daughter there was a bit too pointed.  Please just let it be a summer cliff hanger.  Don’t leave us Diggle!

Edited October 29, 2015 by BkWurm1

[apinknightmare]

 

Side note, from the way the scene went from Lance almost shooting Sara to him leaving Laurel’s apartment, apparently she has direct basement access from her apartment??

 

I think that was supposed to be her ACTUAL BASEMENT. Like, just hers. Which is so crazy I cannot.

[Jediknight]

Honestly, KC/LL looked fetching in some of the basement scenes

She usually does.  Katie Cassidy, Emily Bett Rickards, Caity Lotz, Katrina Law, Willa Holland, and Audrey Marie Anderson, this show doesn't exactly have a shortage of fetching females.

[EmeraldArcher]

The top secret ARGUS satellite communications equipment didn't even require a frigging sign-on password.  The bad guy just opened it up and started reading.  My hotmail account has a password.  THIS WEBSITE REQUIRES A PASSWORD.  So I guess it's more important to verify identity when discussing television shows than when infiltrating a secret drug growing/manufacturing facility on a mostly-unknown former Chinese prison island?

 

SO DUMB.  The flashbacks suck in every way they can suck...they're boring and pointless and stupid and the actors are pretty terrible (I still like second-in-command guy, but Poppy is terrible).  Lady Cop did mention slam, the drug, so there ya go with tie-in to present times.

Great catch with the lack of password--your powers of observation astound me. You probably would have seen the camo bag Oliver expertly hid in the grass and stuff, too!

 

Yeah, the flashbacks suck in every possible way. The slam was more than referenced--the scene transitioned from the neatly stacked slam in the FB to the neatly stacked slam in PD. 'Cause some of us are dense and would have surely missed it like we would have walked right by that bag on the ground.

[AyChihuahua]

Is Rutina Wesley only in one episode? I thought she signed on for more. She was good. That's about all I've got though.

I guess she was fine, but the whole storyline was so weird.  We're a group of cops perpetrating drug thefts, which we've been doing for awhile, but only because we're broke, but we've made a lot of money off our drug stealing/reselling, but we're not criminals, but drug-stealing, and we don't kill cops, except for those two we just did kill, but we won't kill Quentin (even though it would have made perfect sense to kill him), and now Imma have a moment and not knife the Green Arrow all the way through his spine because Quentin made some speech about how much the city sucks?

[Actionmage]

Laurel was coming in with food on a regular plate for Sara, when she saw the broken chains. Still? Leaving a person with (essentially) brain-damage ina dark basement for the majority of 24 hours doesn't scream caring to me. Then again, there are few places that would be discreet enough to place Sara in as is.  *sigh* Sometimes Laurel just can't catch a break with these writers.

 

I was disappointed that every single person who knew Ray isn't curious enough to make extra sure what he was doing and what exactly destroyed the lab. That Curtis and Felicity aren't digging into his last experiment(s)-- which were clearly stated to be miniaturization, due to The Flash crossover with the bee-bots-- and finding things out that way.  While I appreciated Curtis' story about hearing something from a lost loved one, what he was equating that to was very possibly the audio of exactly how Ray died ( if you believe as Arrowverse folk do). That's not exactly the way to get Felicity to make with a password. Then again, she could have just told Curtis the word and left. 

 

ITA that the Ouentin/Oliver scenes were great and long overdue, at least about the subjects they were about. Mr. Blackthorne was just so great tonight. Thank you, sir!

 

Do people in Star(ling) City have an overly-polite gene? Where folks with last names like Blood and Dahrk are given so much leeway in business and city matters that it's often too late to stop their inevitable, but surprising betrayals? 

 

Okay, is the wardrobe budget $1.98? Get Sara in some warmer clothes, dammitt!!

 

More after I process.

[dtissagirl]

Also: Lolololaurel asking Felicity what did Thea think she was wearing was equal parts THE MOST AWKWARDEST and hilarious.

[catrox14]

Loved everything with Oliver and Detective Lance LOL I love that is his code name.

 

Loved Rutina Wesley.

 

But WTF is with Felicity being all fucking weepy about Ray.  She wasn't in love with him! And the whole HE WAS MY BOYFRIEND WAHH.  WTF show just WTF??  She used his suit to save Oliver. She made it clear to him that she wanted to be with Oliver.  UGH

 

Laurel is a complete and utter wackadoodle fool. I'm tired of her. I'm tired of KC's shit acting with one move of folding her arms. I'm tired of the whole fucking thing.  How dare Laurel be so shocked and shaming towards Lance for trying to do the probable right thing by sending Sara back to her resting place.

 

Fuck off, Laurel.

[apinknightmare]

I guess she was fine, but the whole storyline was so weird.  We're a group of cops perpetrating drug thefts, which we've been doing for awhile, but only because we're broke, but we've made a lot of money off our drug stealing/reselling, but we're not criminals, but drug-stealing, and we don't kill cops, except for those two we just did kill, but we won't kill Quentin (even though it would have made perfect sense to kill him), and now Imma have a moment and not knife the Green Arrow all the way through his spine because Quentin made some speech about how much the city sucks?

 

And I'm gonna let you turn me in!

[AyChihuahua]

Great catch with the lack of password--your powers of observation astound me. You probably would have seen the camo bag Oliver expertly hid in the grass and stuff, too!

I was SO BORED with the episode that I had to do something!

[Angel12d]

I guess she was fine, but the whole storyline was so weird.  We're a group of cops perpetrating drug thefts, which we've been doing for awhile, but only because we're broke, but we've made a lot of money off our drug stealing/reselling, but we're not criminals, but drug-stealing, and we don't kill cops, except for those two we just did kill, but we won't kill Quentin (even though it would have made perfect sense to kill him), and now Imma have a moment and not knife the Green Arrow all the way through his spine because Quentin made some speech about how much the city sucks?

 

 

Haha, I'm not saying her story had any logic because yeah, if you steal drugs and kill 2 cops, you're a criminal and a murderer. But I like Rutina Wesley as an actress. I think she's really good in everything she does. I guess I was expecting more from her storyline because they almost sold it like a multi-episode arc by saying she was part of the anti-Vigilante task force. I really thought that would be a thing. 

[apinknightmare]

So, is Lance for real back on the good side of things, or was this all a show for Oliver and now he's a double agent? So he'll be feeding info back to DD on Team Arrow, not the other way around? And then he'll be redeemed for real later? 

 

I just...I can't believe it's as simple as that, everything's forgiven. But I guess I can, because #plot.