S02.E04: Rise Of The Villains: Strike Force

[driedfruit]

What the hell Alfred?

 

I could watch a whole hour of Penguin's gang going around, sassing. Penguin had some cute snipping with Tigress.

 

GCPD got a lot more attractive with the new crew. It'll be nice to have a few familiar faces before they get brutally slaughtered. Maybe I'm a softie but I found their interviews touching and when they do die, I'll feel bad.

 

 

I'm starting to wonder if Theo is a Wayne. Thomas Wayne's unknown brother? It would explain his special interest in Bruce.

[tomatoflyer]

I'm enjoying this Alfred. He does things that are grey even if I still consider him a good guy - he just seems so much more interesting. <br /><br />Butch cracked me up and warmed my heart, I forgot how much I enjoyed the character. I also dig Victor. I don't need every villain to have a heart underneath their tough exterior, I appreciate that he's kind of nuts. <br /><br />This season just feels fun! I no longer put off watching Gotham because it got real tedious for me in season 1 and I was about to give up on this show, but I feel like the characters have more dimensions and the stakes have been raised. I don't miss Fish and Jada's overacting at all. <br /><br />

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Gotham Plus The Shield Equals...Police Academy?!
Someone new is determined to clean up the Gotham City Police Department. That should go well, right?

[immortalfrieza]

Welcome to Gotham Police Academy! According to Captain Barnes, this is the finest law enforcement school in the country, which raises the worrying question of just how bad the police are everywhere else.

Judging by the accuracy of all the cops in this episode, during the massacre, and pretty much the entire show, the Gotham Police Academy graduates can't hit the broad side of a barn if they aren't Gordon, so every other Police Academy graduate must not be able to hit the broad side of a mountain.

 

In fact, the BAD guys on the show seem to hit more often with their shots than the supposedly well trained good guys, though they still fling bullets around without hitting anything for extended periods. I mean, come on, Zsasz didn't even bother trying to take cover and traded bullets with the the entire strike force for a couple minutes but the only one who actually hit anything was him.

Edited October 14, 2015 by immortalfrieza

[RCharter]

I don't like Alfred slapping Selina....I don't like that at all.  Alfred knew Reggie was an ass, and he probably should have known that he would have killed or hurt Bruce.  Guess he'll be kicking himself when he realizes that Bruce is getting attached to some Galavant plant.  I wonder if the new captain will end up being another Galavant plant.

[RCharter]

I can't say enough about how much I am loving this new season.  It is so much better then season one and I actually liked season one. I am liking Leo Galavant and his sister and their plans for Gotham. I am liking Penguin and him being forced to work for Galavant not because Galavant out brutalized him but because he out smarted him. I am liking the new Commisoner and his Strike Force to clean up Gotham. My only real nitpick is we got four minutes of Barbara Kean which amounted to her serving a beverage, kissing a girl, and saying she wanted more to do. I want more for her to do too.

 

I'm not a fan of Barbara's, but I do think crazy Barbara is better than whiny Barbara.  Having said that her only role in this episode was to saunter in in lingerie, kiss everyone on the lips and offer up her martini.  I'm sure its great for the male audience, but surely they can find something more for her to do than eat a popsicle. (although I'm sure that was also great for the male audience)

 

 

 

I'm starting to believe she's as crazy as he is.. no seriously there is just something about the way she perked up to him when he asked her out and when he told her about the voice.. me think she's not too sane herself.. you know what they say: still water runs deep.

 

Also: only one black who is also female, one latino and two white males.... this show is starting to have too much white sausage for my liking. I'll keep watching but i'm pissed off about it.

 

And she damn near got killed her first night out!!!!

 

Kristen has a few screws loose.  I thinks she likes damaged men.  I wonder if she will end up enabling him once she finds out how insane he is becoming.

 

Selina deserved that slap and Alfred was well justified in giving it, for killing Alfred's friend and putting Bruce in extreme danger for no reason, either one is enough on it's own. Alfred was quite right when he said that Bruce is probably better off without her, but she's not going to stay away for long. I can see "Silver" as the one that ultimately wounds Bruce enough that it makes him truly into the loner he eventually becomes, she'll betray him at some point and that will make Bruce afraid to form connections with anyone ever again.

 

 

Selina didn't deserve that slap and Alfred wasn't justified in slapping her.  Alfred's friend made it a point to tell Bruce that he was going to rat on him to the bosses at Wayne Enterprises.  Given that there were people that appeared to be coming after Bruce from Wayne Enterprises, and given how invested the board at Wayne Enterprises was in keeping their secrets there was no reason for anyone to not think that Reggie's threat meant that Bruce's life would be in greater danger.  Especially after Reggie stabbed his own friend.  Selina was doing what it took to protect Bruce's life.  Why Alfred would have any compunction about that is a mystery to me. That he would now want to slap a little girl in the name of his friends honor is ridiculous.

 

As for Selina "staying away,"  Bruce approached her at the charity event, not the other way around.  And again, she took steps to save his life.  But I guess its more important to Alfred to honor the friend who stabbed him and threatened Bruce's life.

Edited October 14, 2015 by RCharter

[DeathQuaker]

I feel bad for Selina but I feel like a slap is a more than fair trade for killing a dude. And a young woman who has killed a dude--and brutally clawed another's eyes out--can bear a single slap. The hurtful part is her being warned away from Bruce, probably the only healthy (ish) relationship she had access to.

Kringle's ultimate reaction to Nygma cinches it for me that she also has villain potential. Just based on her name, I'd guess at her ending up a genderbent Calendar Man (I think there was a "Calendar Girl" in one of the animated shows, although the term "Calendar Girl" has different connotations so I hope if she does go in that direction she has a different name. "Calendar Queen" perhaps?). Sorry the recapper's so bored by them because I was far more interested in Nygma's story than, say, Galavan.

Galavan and his plot is not doing it for me. Looking forward to Penguin killing him brutally, as I'm fairly certain will happen one way or another this season eventually. Hope we see more Mrs. Kabelput though, but I have a feeling she's not long for this world.

[Danielg342]

Mileage will vary on this one, but I think the thing for me about Theo Galavan is that I'm just not buying him as a “pretend good guy”. I don't know if that was a choice made by James Frain (or he was told to do so by the director), but every time Galavan tries to be warm-hearted it just doesn't come off as genuine. No matter what he does, he's always a “snake” and can't resist giving off those vibes, and somehow Gordon and Bruce just don't pick up on it. I might expect that out of Bruce but I would think Gordon would recognize a snake if he saw one. Then again, maybe Alfred picked up on it, which is why he didn't stay for dinner, and perhaps Bullock- more in tune to this stuff than Gordon is- would pick up on it too.

The other issue I have with Galavan's storyline is that I can't see anywhere where Galavan goes without it eventually blowing up in his face. He's almost in “Villain Sue” territory for me, because everything has gone his way and every challenge he's faced has been deflected with ease. He's had an almost omnipotent presence so far that it's just about inevitable- maybe even predictable- that he's going to get a pretty big comeuppance in the future. Why else build him up to be so powerful and all-encompassing in order to do anything other than knock him off his high horse?

It's pretty boring, almost lazy storytelling if you ask me.

One of the things I appreciated about last season was that at least Falcone, Oswald, Fish and Maroni faced challenges, and they “proved” their worth by succeeding those challenges. It made them more human than Galavan seems to be, and at least made things “real”.

However, it's still early in the season- we're not yet in November, when things tend to heat up- and I want to give the writers a chance. There's at least a bit better planning with the stories this season so Galavan might not be omnipotent forever.

This also could be a good spot for Barbara- she's the only one who knows all of Galavan's secrets and could be instrumental in bringing him down. Which could be fun- Jim's worst nightmare could be his only weapon.

[RCharter]

I feel bad for Selina but I feel like a slap is a more than fair trade for killing a dude. And a young woman who has killed a dude--and brutally clawed another's eyes out--can bear a single slap. The hurtful part is her being warned away from Bruce, probably the only healthy (ish) relationship she had access to.

I still don't see how she deserved to be slapped for basically trying to save Bruce from a guy that already said he was going to "tell" the people at Wayne Enterprises about Bruce so they would kill him, and a guy who had just stabbed someone.  No more than Alfred would deserve to be slapped for killing someone in an effort to protect Bruce.

 

The fact that she has fought to protect herself and Bruce doesn't somehow mean that she should get slapped.  Nor does that mean she can "handle" a slap from a fully grown adult male.  In our society, adults are generally seen as authority figures over children.  An authority figure should inspire some level of respect and so for an adult male to go around physically attacking little girls is not okay with me.  Even if its "only a slap."  She isn't a grown man that can fight back, she is a little girl -- and even when she has fought back, its normally been because she has been able to use the element of surprise, not her strength.  Alfred knows he is stronger, emotionally, physically and mentally than a little girl and there is nothing justifiable about a grown man slapping a little girl knowing that he is stronger in every way than she is.

 

It's laughable to me that Alfred is so torn up about his friends honor when his friend tried to kill him and hurt Bruce.  

[Delphi]

Okay, I'm on mobile so I can't quote properly so please bear with me.

Selina, and I'm so glad that the show had dropped the 'Cat' nonsense, killed Reggie. After he threatened to have Bruce killed. That's not a small detail. He stole from the manor, stabbed Alfred and threatened to have Bruce killed. That does not give a former armed forces man the right to deck a fifteen year old freerunner. I'm just going to say that.

I miss Falcone. A lot. He was great.

I enjoyed the episode but I preferred Sarah Essen far more that the new Captain...who apparently wants a kid operated police mitilia. Okay. As an aside, speaking from white guy perspective, did we really need to give Latina Renee montoya and African American Crispus Allen the boot for a gaggle of young cops?

Also, am I to believe that the Oswald Cobblepot this show made who has now the entire Gotham underworld at his command does not have a 24 hour protection detail on his mother. As an aside, you do not book an actress of that calibre to film thirty seconds of video footage.

Butch is killing it.

As is Victor. I shouldn't root for him, but I do. He's a hoot.

I hope Bruce sees through Theo sooner than later. Because I really need my Bruce and Selina fix. I don't care if their together or apart. Give these kids something to do.

[Kathemy]

I care if they are together or apart :)

[Snookums]

I don't know if that was a choice made by James Frain (or he was told to do so by the director), but every time Galavan tries to be warm-hearted it just doesn't come off as genuine.

 

 

I read it as Frain showing his contempt for Gotham--putting on a deliberately cheesy, hamfisted character performance to show how he doesn't have to bother with his A material to woo the filthy masses of the 99%. He's the American version of Decadent Aristocracy--everything I do is automatically good because it's me doing it, lowly worms; now tug your forelocks and bow down. 

[RCharter]

I read it as Frain showing his contempt for Gotham--putting on a deliberately cheesy, hamfisted character performance to show how he doesn't have to bother with his A material to woo the filthy masses of the 99%. He's the American version of Decadent Aristocracy--everything I do is automatically good because it's me doing it, lowly worms; now tug your forelocks and bow down. 

I thought that was one of the funniest scenes.  Seriously, no one questions how he has this speech ready?  How did he know he was gonna get shot at?  It was just so grandiose, the right type of speech for a guy who realizes his audience isn't going to ask the tough questions and is just going to buy his shtick hook, line and sinker.

[Amerilla]

I had already read the forum before watching the episode last night, and even still, I was surprised that they had Alfred flat-out punch Selina in the face.

 

I'm in the "unjustified" camp on this one. She didn't go into the situation intending ot kill Reggie. She didn't shove him out the window as soon as he threatened to have the both killed. She didn't act until she saw Bruce couldn't make himself do it. It wasn't just self-protection that cause her to push him. There was a very strong sense that she was willing to give up a little more of her own morality to protect Bruce's. Which is exactly what Alfred would have have done in the same situation.

 

Also...Among other things, it's shows that Alfred doesn't know much about teenagers. Making it forbidden only makes it more inevitable.

 

I didn't even catch the juxtaposition until later: blond, primped Silver in a white dress frolicking in a fountain outside a mansion; tousled-hair Selina dressed in black and getting splashed by a puddle of dirty water on the streets.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Amerilla

[Chaos Theory]

Ok did Selina deserve to be slapped by by Alfred?

Alfred has a long complicated history with Reggie. They go way back. He was probably Alfred's best and oldest friend. I am not sure which way it was but either Reggie saved Alfred's life or visa verse. Either way they go way back. Then Reggie stabs Alfred and tries to kill Bruce. It complicates matters for Alfred. What Alfred would have done if he had found his old friend is an interesting debate because he loves Bruce like a son. Which is also why he as serious issues with Selina. Not only did she kill his very old friend she did it in front of Bruce and she continues to put Bruce in dangerous situations. Alfred loves Bruce like a father and Selina is the girl he fears will lead his already troubled son astray.

Did Seliba deserve to be slapped by Alfred?

Edited October 14, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[Traveller519]

I'm starting to wonder if Theo is a Wayne. Thomas Wayne's unknown brother? It would explain his special interest in Bruce.

 

I doubt it. He seems really hung up on this, his forefathers never got the credit they deserved. The Wayne's certainly had the respect of Gotham on the whole (even if it was in the most Machiavellian way possible) leading up to their death.

[maczero]

The actress playing Silver is 15. David is 14. 

Whoah, it's true what they say.  Girls do mature faster than boys.  Both Selina and Silver look significantly older than Bruce.

 

Silver St. Cloud appeared appeared first in 1977 in Detective Comics while Silver Sable was created in Amazing Spider-Man in 1985, but other than the silver hair, the two characters are very different. St. Cloud is a rich socialite who becomes romantically involved with Bruce Wayne and figures out he's Batman when she sees him fighting Deadshot. She leaves him and Gotham City when she realizes he'll never give up being Batman. Sable was the cold, badass daughter of a famous Nazi hunter in Europe. She was trained by her father and took over his team of mercenaries after his death.

Thanks for the info.

 

While carrying his uniform in his hands, presumably? Was Alfred expecting him to strip and change right there on the street? At least let Bruce change in the back seat, damn!

I'm assuming Bruce could change in one of the school's bathrooms or locker room.  He was still on school grounds at the time.

[Philbert]

 

I'm sure its great for the male audience, but surely they can find something more for her to do than eat a popsicle. (although I'm sure that was also great for the male audience)

 

No, even we're getting bored with that by now.

[Danielg342]

No, even we're getting bored with that by now.

 

Yeah. Don't get me wrong- Erin Richards is an absolute bombshell and it's a treat seeing her have fun and be so flirty and sexy...but, I could get all that in a picture, and I came for her acting, not her posing skills. She needs something substantive to do.

[Milz]

 

I'm starting to wonder if Theo is a Wayne. Thomas Wayne's unknown brother? It would explain his special interest in Bruce.

 

in the 1960s' Batman comics, Bruce's guardian is his uncle (Thomas Wayne's brother). So at least in one Batman canon, Thomas Wayne has a brother.

[Sakura12]

I'm in the "unjustified" camp on this one. She didn't go into the situation intending ot kill Reggie. She didn't shove him out the window as soon as he threatened to have the both killed. She didn't act until she saw Bruce couldn't make himself do it. It wasn't just self-protection that cause her to push him. There was a very strong sense that she was willing to give up a little more of her own morality to protect Bruce's. Which is exactly what Alfred would have have done in the same situation.

 

That's what I'm going off of. If Alfred was there and heard his "friend" threaten Bruce he would've killed him, himself. Then we saw that Bruce was one that thought of doing it, he couldn't so Selina did it for him. There is also the fact that Selina lives on the streets with no one that cares about her. She had to learn to survive and who not to trust, much like Alfred did from his story to Lucius. 

 

I would've been fine with Alfred saying he knows she killed Reggie and she should stay away from Bruce, because she's not good for him. Punching her in the face was unnecessary. 

Edited October 15, 2015 by Sakura12

[driedfruit]

in the 1960s' Batman comics, Bruce's guardian is his uncle (Thomas Wayne's brother). So at least in one Batman canon, Thomas Wayne has a brother.

 

I thought they would have him be the forgotten Wayne from the Owls story line. It can't be Bruce's younger brother, but uncle could work. 

[Gulftastic]

Penquin's meeting of his gangs just made me think of 'Mystery Men', when Casanova Frankenstein did something similar.

[NorthstarATL]

Definitely not O.K. with Alfred hitting Selina. I guess I was just raised wrong, but you don't hit females. Silver St. Cloud in the comics was such a departure from the usual love interests that it's sad to see her utilized here so early and so obviously a tool of the Galavans. The Riddler date was weird, but there is definitely something off about Miss Kringle (who SHOULD be a Mr. Freeze accomplice someday with that name!), which would be more interesting if they hadn't already gone there with Barbara. Also NOT O.K. with momnapping Mrs. Cobblepot! I like the task force idea, but I won't get too attached. Still bummed about Jerome.

Edited October 16, 2015 by NorthstarATL

[JTMacc99]

I like the task force idea, but I won't get too attached.

Yeah, I'm wondering if they are just red shirts or if they are just the beginning of what will become a bigger group in the long run.  Seems like it is the latter, but you never know.

 

I love the way they deal with the evolution of the Penguin. Super smart, a little vulnerable, will always come out on top using his brains but also prone to outbursts of extreme violence. Really great character, and a really great job by this show with going with him as one of the primary Batman villains to feature.

[hathorlive]

 

I'm in the "unjustified" camp on this one. She didn't go into the situation intending ot kill Reggie. She didn't shove him out the window as soon as he threatened to have the both killed. She didn't act until she saw Bruce couldn't make himself do it. It wasn't just self-protection that cause her to push him. There was a very strong sense that she was willing to give up a little more of her own morality to protect Bruce's. Which is exactly what Alfred would have have done in the same situation.

 

I normally don't even notice when this show kills someone.  It's a violent show.  That said, it is NOT okay to have a grown man with special forces training punch a young girl.  That's not violence, that's a personal kind of malevolence that is painful to watch.   Alfred just became the worst hypocrite in Gotham.  We all know that if he had heard Reggie say what he said, he would have shoved him out of the window.  Because his only goal is to protect Bruce.  And guess what?  That's all Selina has done on this show.  She didn't have to come forward with the information about his parents.  It put her life on the line.  She knows from living on the streets you don't get involved in things like that.  And it came back to bite her in the butt.  So Alfred thinks his violence is justice and that Selina's isnt?  He's a freaking hypocrite.  She did the expedient thing which was to remove a threat before that threat could manifest itself as an attack on Bruce's life.  I think he'd be better off to shake her hand and thank her for protecting Bruce.

 

The class-ism angle is also interesting.  Dollars to donuts Alfred won't perceive of Silver as a threat because she's blond, dainty and wealthy.   She's clean and pure as compared to Selina's street roots  And he'll never see the threat that's coming.  I would rather have a few Selina's guarding my back than people who moralize against your actions when they'd do the same thing if they had to.

 

Did I miss where Alfred learned that Selina shoved Reggie?

Edited October 16, 2015 by hathorlive

[Gulftastic]

Alfred over-reacted because he was worried that Master Bruce was in danger. I hope there is some kind of understanding from him and an apology down the line.

[paigow]

Did I miss where Alfred learned that Selina shoved Reggie?

Pretty sure that Bruce ratted her out to Alfred last season...

[Perfect Xero]

On the one hand it was very jarring to see a grown man slap a teenage girl, on the other hand ... Forget Reggie, at the end of last season Selina was hunting Gordon down and delivering him to Fish at gunpoint so Fish could murder him. If the worst thing that happens to Selina is a slap to the face then she's pulling a real karma Houdini.

[DeepRunner]

Saw the episode online the other day. Initial thoughts..

 

* Penguin will take his revenge on Galavan

 

* Barnes is too perfect. Be very cautious with white knights

 

* Is Harvey going to fade into the background, at least temporarily?

 

* It will be interesting to follow the story of Nygma and Kringle

 

* I think Barbara's storyline will be used up by the end of the season

 

* So, will Silver and Selina be headed for a...ummm...catfight over Bruce?

[J----av]

Yeah. Don't get me wrong- Erin Richards is an absolute bombshell and it's a treat seeing her have fun and be so flirty and sexy...but, I could get all that in a picture, and I came for her acting, not her posing skills. She needs something substantive to do.

Problem is, her posing skills are allot better then her acting skills

[RCharter]

Saw the episode online the other day. Initial thoughts..

 

* Penguin will take his revenge on Galavan

 

* Barnes is too perfect. Be very cautious with white knights

 

* Is Harvey going to fade into the background, at least temporarily?

 

* It will be interesting to follow the story of Nygma and Kringle

 

* I think Barbara's storyline will be used up by the end of the season

 

* So, will Silver and Selina be headed for a...ummm...catfight over Bruce?

 

Somewhat I agree about Barnes....I want to believe, but it would be a good story if he ended up in Galavan's pocket somehow.....but I do want to believe!

 

I'm not sure what Barbara's storyline is other than kissing everyone while scantily clad.  I always think that she will end up killing Leslie -- I mean, that would destroy Gordon.  And you're right, if that's the endgame then I don't know what else she would do...although she could get hooked up again with Selina.  Her and Selina were friends once upon a time and now that Barbara has gone to the darkside......

[benteen]

Gotham has been a hell of a lot better and more entertaining this season.  I liked this episode a lot.

 

Michael Chiklis character is a good addition to the show and a reminder of how Jim has really screwed himself over with this Penguin thing.  I like Penguin being involved in Theo’s scheme although I have to question the logic of doing that murder himself.  His limp is a dead giveaway for anyone to identify him.  Zsasz continues to remain ridiculously entertaining.

 

I know this show doesn’t do subtle but how can anyone in Gotham be fooled by Theo’s awful acting and the contrived situations he puts himself in?  Seriously, Gotham is full of fools.

Edited October 17, 2015 by benteen

[Bill C.]

After jumping back into this show with the season opener...and waiting patiently for Michael Chiklis to show up..."this show don't do subtle" seems to be an understatement.  It definitely appears to be staged as a comic book, if not a current one.  And that's not even counting the Galavans; Theo is so amazingly comic-book unsubtle it defies belief (really, he makes Dick Jones from Robocop look like a bastion of tact), and his harem-of-two-until-shown-otherwise is just plain freaky-deaky.  If in an oddly boring way.  And I'm a guy.  The best thing that could happen is that Oswald indeed takes down Team Monologue for kidnapping his mother

 

By the same token, Chiklis's Nathaniel Barnes was almost as unsubtle as Theo--just from the opposite direction.  Jim got dragged down into the muck that is Gotham early on, but this guy at least for the moment appears to be a bigger white knight than he ever was--and, as I understand this show, that commitment to I AM THE LAW presumably has to backfire in a huge way at some point before the season's over.  It probably guarantees that part of the Strike Team...er, Force has to die as well, but that's more of a corollary.

 

As for Eddie Nygma and Kristen Kringle's weird little date...I found out in passing that he killed her boyfriend a while back, so even though they seemed to click together in their weird way I've got to assume that that bombshell has to come out and blow up their blossoming relationship.

[Hobo.PassingThru]

 

I know this show doesn’t do subtle but how can anyone in Gotham be fooled by Theo’s awful acting and the contrived situations he puts himself in?  Seriously, Gotham is full of fools.

It makes it more interesting. The show really works best when you just let it be crazy and accept that most of the characters are insane in some way, obsessed in some way or just flat out corrupt in every way it takes to get ahead.

 

 

 

...they seemed to click together in their weird way I've got to assume that that bombshell has to come out and blow up their blossoming relationship.

I think she's down with crazy, abusive guys. So, that he may have killed her ex-boyfriend is like he was a white knight for her. Because, she's an odd one, too.

 

I know this is speculation but I kind of hope the blind, fortune teller wasn't Jermone's biological father and that the snake tamer from Kansas City was. Why? It wouldn't mean that the Joker was imitating Jerome but that Jerome was imitating the Joker. And, it would be nice but very unlikely that guy would show up later. But, surely Penguin is going to be the one to stop Theo and the Tigress, his sister.

Edited October 18, 2015 by Hobo.PassingThru

[TwistedandBored]

I don't care how complicated the relationship between Alfred and his friend were, he had not right hit Selina. She was a young girl who had no one to lookout for her and Alfred, a former soldier knew this. The whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth and made me want to see someone punch the lights out of Alfred. 

 

There is keeping things in the grey area and then there was what Alfred did which was completely dark. 

[immortalfrieza]

I find it funny that a simple slap, in all likelihood never being intended by the writers to be anything more than a brief thing the fans aren't supposed to read much into, became this big thing on this thread. Alfred simply give a kid who greatly deserved it nothing more than a slap and a stern talking to, but so many here are acting like he went Special Forces badass on her and beat the living hell out of her instead. Where is this coming from?

[Hamatron]

It probably comes from a lot of people, myself included, believing that a child never "deserves" to be slapped by grown man.

[immortalfrieza]

It probably comes from a lot of people, myself included, believing that a child never "deserves" to be slapped by grown man.

Age is entirely irrelevant, a person's actions are. Selina deserved to get slapped, she could have been anywhere from 5 to 100 and it wouldn't have changed the fact that she definitely did something to deserve it. Alfred is actually letting Selina off with next to nothing compared to what she deserves for all the things she's done to both Alfred and Bruce.

Edited October 18, 2015 by immortalfrieza

[orza]

Selina committed murder. A slap is nothing compared to that.

[Hamatron]

Yeah. A violent homeless guy died at the hands of a violent homeless teen. Everyone involved is living a shitty life of violence. I'm willing to cut it at a wash there.

And things like age and gender is pretty much always relevant. Violence is how people on this show communicate, so I get why it happens here. And I'm sure it will happen again. But that doesn't mean it's a character behavior I'm down with or think is just or deserved. We're talking about a homeless kid who has grown up on the streets. She's probably been beat (and worse) by adults her whole life, so this is probably nothing new. Sure, a lot of what she does isn't okay, either, but that doesn't mean I am cool with grownups who beat on a kid.

[Danielg342]

I don't agree with corporal punishment in general, especially when it isn't your own kid. However, I take Alfred to task more because he's forcibly removing people from Bruce's life- especially people who, like Selina, have helped Bruce. I don't think it's Alfred's place to decide on who Bruce should have as friends.

[starchild215]

Alfred has never liked Selina. He knows there is an attraction between the Selina and Bruce and he made it clear he doesn't want it to happen back in S1. That said his slapping her was the last thing I expected and it shocked me. Meanwhile Bruce, being a young man, has been distracted by the shiny new toy Galavan dangled in front of him.

 

I cannot wait for Penguin to get Galavan. He warned him but I think Galavan feels he can manipulate Penguin just like he did the Maniax. As someone else already said, my money is on the bird.

Edited October 19, 2015 by starchild215

[Oscirus]

Finally caught up.

 

I thought the scene between Catgirl and Alfred was good. Not because I think that she deserved to be slapped ( she obviously didn't) it just shows that he'll go to extremes to protect Bruce from what he deems are bad influences. It was similar to the Luscious death threat scene last week.  His invoking his best friends murder was a way of justifying to himself what he had just done.

 

I don't know how they managed to do it, but Barbara is more annoying now then she was last year. At least last year she was only contained to Gordon's home life. Now that she's in the middle of two love triangles and vamping it up, she's pretty much on my last nerve.

 

The riddler subplot where Kris breaks his heart and he goes full evil needs to hurry up. Worst villain origin story ever.

 

So Penguin and Butch left those two alive for plot convenience, right?  It just seems stupid to leave witnesses when performing such a job. Also, why is Jim interviewing that lady In front of everybody? Is he so much of a careless idiot that he would willingly put an innocent person's life in danger to try and solve a murder? 

 

Finally Theo already has too many factors going against him for him to be the main villain for the whole season. Way too many enemies. I'm going to come up with an out there theory that his father is Falcone. Hence the respect talk.

 

 

 

[RCharter]

Gotham has been a hell of a lot better and more entertaining this season.  I liked this episode a lot.

 

Michael Chiklis character is a good addition to the show and a reminder of how Jim has really screwed himself over with this Penguin thing.  I like Penguin being involved in Theo’s scheme although I have to question the logic of doing that murder himself.  His limp is a dead giveaway for anyone to identify him.  Zsasz continues to remain ridiculously entertaining.

 

I know this show doesn’t do subtle but how can anyone in Gotham be fooled by Theo’s awful acting and the contrived situations he puts himself in?  Seriously, Gotham is full of fools.

 

I feel like that is all done with such purpose.  A news conference on the steps of city hall, and not one reporter wonders how Theo had a speech about running for mayor already planned?  One that specifically refers to the criminal element in Gotham not winning?  And the speech was so over the top.  I was sort of laughing.

 

 

It makes it more interesting. The show really works best when you just let it be crazy and accept that most of the characters are insane in some way, obsessed in some way or just flat out corrupt in every way it takes to get ahead.

 

 

I think she's down with crazy, abusive guys. So, that he may have killed her ex-boyfriend is like he was a white knight for her. Because, she's an odd one, too.

 

I totally agree --- she seemed mostly confused by what she thought was his admission, but she didn't ask a whole bunch of questions about it.

Age is entirely irrelevant, a person's actions are. Selina deserved to get slapped, she could have been anywhere from 5 to 100 and it wouldn't have changed the fact that she definitely did something to deserve it. Alfred is actually letting Selina off with next to nothing compared to what she deserves for all the things she's done to both Alfred and Bruce.

*Selina killed a man that stabbed Alfred and was pretty much threatening to have Bruce killed.  How did killing him deserve a slap?  She basically saved Bruce and Alfred from having to do it.  She protected Bruce the best way she knew how.  I don't think Reggie, the guy who fooled and stabbed his friend and threatened to send people after a child so he could get drugs, could somehow be talked into taking a more reasonable position.

 

*Age is always a relevant factor.  Adults are held out as authority figures in our society and children are taught to respect them.  Even children like Selina.  An adult shouldn't take advantage of being in a position of power to beat up little girls.

Edited October 19, 2015 by RCharter

[Kathemy]

Since I honestly think the subject of the Alfred/Selina interaction is really sensitive and also highly dependant on each character's moral core I have tried to avoid branding it and handing out red and yellow cards. If I were to describe my attitude in one sentence it would be that Alfred's actions as well as Selina's were wrong but understandable. I wrote an analysis on the subject that you can find here:

 

http://kathemy.tumblr.com/post/131340115141/the-punch

[wayne67]

I don't agree with corporal punishment in general, especially when it isn't your own kid. However, I take Alfred to task more because he's forcibly removing people from Bruce's life- especially people who, like Selina, have helped Bruce. I don't think it's Alfred's place to decide on who Bruce should have as friends.

 

Isn't Alfred Bruce's de facto guardian? Doesn't that give him some leeway on making sure his impressionable obsessive young charge doesn't spend too much time hanging out with a kleptomaniac, murdering street girl. Who he is probably is still thinking lied to them both about being a witness to the Wayne's murder in order to get somewhere to hang out for a few days.  Also she's a member of Penguin's gang and hangs out with other murderous thugs and low lives...It's not like Selina is a positive influence on Bruce Wayne. 

 

It is interesting how in a world where people say women are equal to men... that women are not allowed to be struck because... ? women are fragile ? Even the fictional characters who can leap over fences and claw people eyes out with their finger nails like it's nothing and commit cold blooded murder without the slightest pang of guilt are subjected to a knee jerk reaction of aww she's just a girl... How dare he?!

 

I really hope Penguin pulls it together soon because he's gone back to pathetic again. Why does he keep letting the same two cops enter his house in order to insult and or threaten him?  The gun battles on this show are really terrible. 

[John Potts]

I think Galavan played Penguin all wrong - he could have approached him as an equal "You be King of the Underworld: I'll be Gotham's public face" and "casually" mention that his Mrs Kapelput was at her hair appointment/bridge club (or whatever she does during the day) once he'd said no. By actually kidnapping her he's made him a definite enemy (and given we "know" Penguin wins, it rather foreshadows how the conflict will go). OTOH, I did think they made Penguin's rise too easy - as he himself said, a year ago he was holding Fish's umbrella and now he's "The Don" and could have made his ascent much longer (they took out Falcone, Moroni AND Fish in last Season's Finale - if they'd kept Falcone as boss with Penguin as his "No 1 Guy" they could have introduced Galavan as a rival lieutenant so his rivalry would have a less inevitable conclusion).

maczero Is it me or does Silver look like she may actually be 18 or pretty close to it?

 

I was thinking she looked about 5 years older than Bruce, but I've long stopped worrying about actors playing children looking their age. Also, it definitely reminded me of Batman Begins too.

 

Lantern7  Did the GCPD check the bullets at the scene? I'm betting blanks were used.

 

More likely low calibre bullets that lacked the punch to do "real" damage (particularly if Galavan was wearing a vest, which he might reasonably do in Gotham anyway). The odds of hitting any one person are actually pretty low in your average drive by.

 

Spartan Girl I like Barnes so far, but I have a feeling he will turn out to be evil.

 

I reckon he'll end up dead, but it could go either way. For now, we get all the Bromance with Gordon!

[Chas411]

There was a different tone to this episode. I missed the maniax. It was really good but a bit duller then the previous epsidoes.

[bethy]

I, too, was surprised by Alfred’s hitting Selina, but I think that it was absolutely meant to be shocking/disturbing and not meant to somehow imply that Alfred’s action was appropriate. For me it was a reminder of Alfred’s own rough background and, as someone said earlier, an indication of Alfred’s willingness to do pretty much anything he thinks is necessary to protect Bruce.