S04.E01: Green Arrow

[AyChihuahua]

The 'bones' line from Laurel bugged me. It was already awkward and then they went and had Waller repeat it. I can't figure out what they were trying to say with that.  

That he has really tasty marrow?

[Racj82]

I just need Diggle to live. Dig dies here or if Flash ever kills of Joe, I riot. But, many people are also forgetting there's a lot of crap that will go on before we get the reveal. That's includes a bunch of new characters. It could anyone. Not just someone from the current team. This show ain't killing off Felicity. They would lose a crap load of fans and I still believe she is endgame.

Why is Diggle not seriously hurt after Laurel blew the back of that truck up with him right there and the door wide open?

[AyChihuahua]

I just need Diggle to live. Dig dies here or if Flash ever kills of Joe, I riot. But, many people are also forgetting there's a lot of crap that will go on before we get the reveal. That's includes a bunch of new characters. It could anyone. Not just someone from the current team. This show ain't killing off Felicity. They would lose a crap load of fans and I still believe she is endgame.

Why is Diggle not seriously hurt after Laurel blew the back of that truck up with him right there and the door wide open?

I swear I had the exact same thought, and he even cued her up to shoot, but was still not at all braced.  IRL he would have fallen out of the back and died of head trauma.

 

This show, lord this show.

[Chaser]

I was actually really underwhelmed by the fight scenes. The stunt doubles were still obvious, it was sloppy and there where legit moments where people seemed lost. 

[Smoaking Reporter]

I hate to say it but I think it's very possible that is Diggle's grave. He's the only person Oliver would cry over not named Moira, Thea, Robert or Felicity. It could be Laurel but I don't think they would go through all these hoops to kill her.

Barry would probably feel bad for missing his funeral as a compatriot but not because he was super invested in him personally.

Sadly I think it's Diggle too. Or Quentin.

[SleepDeprived]

So thrilled that the show is back! Woo! Pretty solid premiere and I was mostly a really happy camper apart from that flashforward. Although it did cross my mind that they might try it and a grave could be shown after the cast/producers said the twist was "haunting." Thanks, Arrow writers! I can always count on you guys for ending on a depressing and annoying note (that Guggs and Mericle admitted to not actually knowing, for sure, who it will be about). I'm so totally not pissy about it. :)))))

 

Oliver and Felicity was everything I always wanted them to be. So freaking cute and adorable together. And Thea being super excited about the vigilantism. I am disappointed that Diggle and Laurel haven't noticed how crazy out-of-control Thea was getting, though. Still meh about Digg's weird helmet but give me all the Lyla and Baby Sara scenes with him! I just really want more Lyla on the show. (Also, David Ramsey and Candice Patton's guitar hero commercial was cheesy but sooo mesmerizing. DR's shoulders and arms, man.)

 

Quentin can gtfo anytime now. Unless he's being mind-voodoo-ed into helping Darhk, he can shove off with all his hypocritical, judgy diatribes. But I think I like this Damien Darhk. Not as a person but as the villain for the season. He's got a certain evil swagger that makes me actually believe that he means business. And he dresses really well plus actually looks like he showers often, too. He's the kind of baddie this show has desperately needed for some time now. How the heck he managed to lose the Ra's title to that other dude, I will never know.

 

I actually expected him to complete the "strong" with "female character" just in case the anvil didn't land on my head.

*cackling* That was the most unintentionally hilarious moment of the episode for me. Show, don't tell!

 

Also, out of left field prediction, that the grave at the end, if it's not Quentin then it's Donna Smoak and Felicity is injured badly/in a coma, which is why she wasn't at the cemetery with Oliver. That should open up some storyline to pull in Felicity's dear old Dad, too.

[slayer2]

Well that was entertaining. Fun watching Team Arrow work together sans Oliver and Thea was adorbs!  A little too much Olicity for my liking but I guess they're going with the plot point that he can't do it alone hence the partnership, still it feels more Felicity's story than his, it bothered me that he had to be convinced to come back and coaxed into missing it when Felicity was able to say immediately that suburban life sucked. I suppose they explained what they were going for with Oliver being afraid of letting the darkness creep in but I still wish he had copped to missing at least the thrill of helping people, that line of Felicity's should have been his. 

 

Otherwise, Diggle and Lyla's baby remains adorable and I'm glad that Team Arrow is loyal to each other though I am disappointed that Ollie was able to cut them right off while Felicity couldn't but I suppose it's a product of all the time they spent working together when Oliver was off "dead" or being Heir to the Demon. I really hope his loyalty improves in the coming episodes. Nice to know Thea is living with Laurel, I hope to see more of their bond as time progresses, the motorcycle bit was cute.

 

Always nice to see GG along for the ride, I am a crossover whore ever since Buffy and Angel so I'm  always happy when they share the wealth. Damien Darhk (sp?) seems interesting though he doesn't quite hold my attention like Ra's Al Ghul (still bugs me how they all mispronounce his name). Looks like someone  (whose name rhymes with Coke) is going to need another trip to the Lazarus Pit at the end there. All in all, nice to see the team again and welcome back Arrow, the new reveal as Green Arrow and the change to Star City was quite nice as well. Can't wait until the season really picks up with the LoT team, Nyssa's return and the resurrection of Sara. Good things are coming. Welcome back show!

Edited October 8, 2015 by slayer2

[foreverevolving]

So ummm after reading all the comments I realized that there is one character no one brought up.. one character that they can easily kill because the actor is no longer a cast member on the show... Roy!

 

killing Roy*, Roy dying will impact Oliver in many ways, including making him want to kill DD, not to mention Roy and Barry have met during last year crossover - and it's possible he's been to Central once or twice since leaving Starling, they have most likely formed some form of friendship.. he seemed to really get along with Cisco!

 

*notice how in the "last season on arrow" sequence after the Ray explosion scene they continued to a sequence of scenes were: Roy turned himself in as The Arrow, than getting supposedly stabbed in prison by Lyla ARGUS friend to fake his death in prison ending with him literally falling to the ground.

Why would they show Roy getting stabbed than show him falling to the ground without showing the audience him driving away safely? what purpose does showing us those scenes has?

 

Me think it could be Roy.

[catrox14]

 

So ummm after reading all the comments I realized that there is one character no one brought up.. one character that they can easily kill because the actor is no longer a cast member on the show... Roy!

 

 

/raises hand.

 

I brought him up just  a few posts back....

Edited October 8, 2015 by catrox14

[foreverevolving]

/raises hand.

 

I brought him up just  a few posts back....

 ohh? oops! sorry about that! I must have missed your post... or maybe that's what ended up inspiring my idea without me realizing it did..

it's late.

sorry once again!

Edited October 8, 2015 by foreverevolving

[Artsda]

I was amused by having a flash forward featuring The Flash. Loved seeing Barry and even the line by Lance saying they could have a Flash day.

 

Good episode, liked seeing domesticated Oliver having dinner parties with the neighbors. 

[Angel12d]

I was actually really underwhelmed by the fight scenes. The stunt doubles were still obvious, it was sloppy and there where legit moments where people seemed lost. 

 

It was a definite improvement on last season where I could barely see some of the action scenes because they were so damn dark. But I spotted the stunt doubles too often and it was distracting. Took me out of things a couple times.

[foreverevolving]

The 'bones' line from Laurel bugged me. It was already awkward and then they went and had Waller repeat it. I can't figure out what they were trying to say with that.  

That neither woman really knows the real Oliver? that they both bring out the worst in him.

that's my guess. it may not have been intentional but.. yea.

[mommalib]

It was in the episode Sara.  Felicity was crying because her friend had died and Oliver was being cold and emotionless and she got angry at him. 

 

I think she had a point because he was expecting her to be as emotionless as he was.  (Also he'd just unilaterally shut down their relationship.)  And she does acknowledge that what she said sounded mean, which neither Diggle nor Laurel did.

Actually I don't think that was the scene. It was a different scene and she said something much worst but I can't remember exactly what it was but I know I was mad when she said it.

[Chaser]

I dare everyone to watch the Olicity fight scene and not be distracted by Oliver's eyebrows. They had energy tonight. 

[thuganomics85]

Well, I'm already enjoying Damien Dahrk way more then Ra's, although granted after Matt Nable's underwhelming performance, almost anyone would look good.  And when said person is freaking Neal McDonough, then, yeah, no contest.  Dude was born for these types of characters.

 

The early stuff with Oliver and Felicity was entertaining simply because Oliver looked so happy.  That along is a rare sight.  Either way, I vastly prefer this relationship to the one they had in season three.  Maybe they stay strong and never go down that path again.

 

I understand why Diggle is still upset with Ollie, but I hope they make-up soon, because it just saddens me that these have gotten so far apart now.  Hopefully, they'll slowly get back in sync.  David Ramsey continues to be one of the highlights of this show: hope they keep it up, after they regulated him to the background a lot last season.

 

The fight scenes were very sloppy.  Especially the Ollie/Damien one.  It was way too obvious that it was just a stunt guy with a bad wig trying to past off as Neal.

 

Glad that Thea is suited up and getting more to do, but I'm sure her going off her rocker is going to be important later on.

 

Quentin is working for Damien?  There has to be a reason, unless he really is just past the point of no return.

 

Finally, there is the flash-forward.  I got no idea, and since the producers apparently haven't even decided, that's just silly.  Because if they are stupid enough to make it Felicity, then they already screwed themselves over because Barry's reaction would be completely out of character.  He would be way more upset then he was.  Either way, I do think she's a fake-out.  I worry that it's Diggle, but I hope I'm wrong.  I'm just not sure who would warrant a single tear from Ollie other then Felicity, Diggle, or Thea.

 

Cautiously optimistic for now.

[Actionmage]

Liked:

*Adorable Toddler Sara with Pragmatic Mom Lyla

*Domestic Olicity

*That office with the neat oval/ oval-y table

*Walter name-drop ( saw Mr. Salmon on Limitless the other night and immediately thought 'Walter!')

*The loft is back

*Reaching-equilibrium Ollie

*Laurel ( I know!)

*Thea and Laurel- Roomies!

*Neal M. as Damien Dahrk; good start!

 

Dislikes:

*Laurel and Quentin talking as if the SCPD aren't there and no one pays attention to their boss and the ADA. Ever.

*The unwarranted attitude from the team that asked Oliver back

*Quentin in Classic Quentin- style Blame Mode

*Rom-com ring shenanigans

*No one wondering about Ray, despite his statements about working with miniaturizing tech. (If electron microscopes can pick up RL atoms, would they not also pick up The Atom/ Dr. Palmer?)

*Team Arrow is not a Team; it is a loose confederation of sort of similarly-minded folks who cosplay heroes, from what we saw just tonight. Those folks would have problems stopping a running toilet. The folks Oliver left at the end of last season could handle most of what was thrown at them and recognized when some more help would be of use. Dig gets to still be sore, but he's not an idiot.

*No one thinking that Thea is having problems due to the Lazarus Pit. Granted, they don't know exactly what symptoms to look for, but as noted above, Laurel should be more than 'Let's work on you verbage, 'kay?'  Oliver left, but not in the same way as the previous seasons. Trying to push Thea's "zeal"/"enthusiasm"/whatever as Oliver just not being around to know she's fine is stupid.  No one is asking Dig or Laurel to diagnose Thea, but for confirmation that Thea isn't acting like neuro-normative folks act like.

* "Amanda Waller"  ( Ms. Addai- Robinson was looking good though!)

 

Oh! I forgot to add in the likes " People are abandoning the Star City ship- super realism, Show", but it was a) depressing and b) making Gotham's Gotham the less pathetic DC TV city. I also enjoyed, as also noted above, that there were scenes with sunlight! I could actually make heads or tails of background things! Thank you DP and team!

 

The last scene was... it stole from Dahrk and Lance, which is rude and not cool, Show. I could have lived with the seeming darkening of Quentin, but to just yell 'Fire!' in a crowded theater is ill-thought-out and potentially dangerous. I don't want to play  Death Roulette, so I won't, but why antagonize folks two years in a row? 

 

I'm in for now, but it's based on how this unfolds, this being the overall story, not "Who's Dead This Time?"

[millennium]

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it's Felicity's gravestone (although she looked fantastic in that blood orange dress).   Anyway, it doesn't matter because nobody ever truly dies in these shows.

 

I realize I'm in the minority, but I didn't buy the Oliver-Felicity domestic bliss in this episode.   The scenes felt phony, rehearsed, and obligatory.   Equally tiresome was Oliver's "journey" back to Arrow-hood.  After four seasons, his "am-I-in-or-out" dilemma is about as played as that bad wig he wears in the flashbacks.

 

Did anything actually happen in this episode that we haven't seen at least two or three times before?  City officials targeted ... an attack on the police station ... a trained cadre of assassins/ghosts/whatever ... Star(ling) City is dying ... a bloviating bad guy.  

 

Snore.

 

This story is in desperate need of a shakeup.   It just keeps circling its own bellybutton.

 

Thought KC looked great in her leathers.   And thank goodness for Speedy, who was the only spark of vitality in an otherwise lifeless episode.

[Starfish35]

Leaving aside the final scene for a minute, I think I'd give the rest of the episode a B. Much like The Flash premiere, there was a lot of good, but quite a bit of it felt off to me. Thoughts in random order....

Laurel....sigh. I just can't with her....I just cannot. In the first scene on the motorcycle with Thea, I was thinking, well this is good, I like this, maybe this won't be so bad after all. And then it just went downhill after that. Her scenes in the police station with her father were just absolutely ridiculous - talking loudly on the phone to the team, standing around in costume talking to her father looking extremely like Laurel Lance wearing a mask and black leather. And that anvilicious moment and awkward wink with the child - good grief. And I cannot believe I'm actually typing these words but.... I think she actually looked better with the wig (I know I know). Wow. Moving on.

Since I'm talking about costumes, I'm just going to say it. I hate the new GA costume. I hate how it looks so constricting in the chest and shoulders. I keep thinking, how do you raise your arms in that? And I do not like Diggle's helmet any better in action, so....fails all around in the costume department, except for Thea (lucky Thea!).

I'm disappointed that the flashbacks are going back to the island. I feel like maybe they're trying to get back what worked with the flashbacks in the first season, and who knows, maybe it will work. But I can't deny that my first reaction, after months of speculation about where the flashbacks were going this year, was "well that's boring."

I'm tired of everyone piling on Oliver. I really am. I can't believe Diggle told him he can't love. Too far Diggle. And you know good and well it's not true. And I'm really tired of Quentin's blaming him for everything. Quentin knows what the Undertaking was. That would have happened with or without Oliver. I can see the blame for Slade and/or Ra's, but I'm getting really tired of the not-so-subtle accusations that he is also responsible for Malcolm, when actually the opposite is true.

While I was looking forward to Oliver and Thea scenes, I wasn't so thrilled with the return to overprotective brother/bratty sister vibe. I get that he's worried. But I'm hoping we don't get just a whole lot of that.

And what was with all the "bones" comments, seriously? We don't really need callbacks to what was, IMO, one of the most ridiculous lines ever uttered in this show, thank you very much.

*sigh*. I think that's most of my grumps, leading up to that last scene.

Arghh.

It's not even a 'fun' mystery. It just means we will now approach every week as a slow march to pain, suffering and misery -- no matter how enjoyable some rides are -- or how thrilling.

It'll probably force me out of fandom, though, because the continuous speculation and freaking out is going to drive me crazy.

Agreed completely to both these things.

I am the type of person who, if worried that my favorite character, or maybe even the dog, isn't going to make it to the end of the book, skips to the end to make sure. I hate suspense. Especially "who's going to die" suspense. So this particular tactic does not please me, to say the least. But beyond that, I am not looking forward to dealing with the fandom going absolutely nuts for the next few months any time a new hint or clue or imagined clue comes out.

I agree with those that have said that the grave scene was deliberately shot in such a way that you could argue for it being anyone. I personally don't know what to think. I think of the main cast, Quentin is the most disposable, and I've been expecting his death for awhile now (I was actually a little surprised he lived last season). So I lean toward it being him, especially with the deal with the devil he's apparently made, but there's arguments for it being a whole lot of different people.

I do think we're supposed to think it's Felicity though. I don't think that means it actually is or isn't, but I think jumping from the ring to the grave was deliberately calculated to lead our minds there. But I will say that, however likely or unlikely it might be, killing Felicity would snap the last few threads I have holding me to this show (and I have one foot out the door already).

SA just said in his live session that they just recently shot the grave scene, so those BTS pics with GG were from that scene, not a reprise.

Also explains why the Arrow screener for critics was so much later than the other CW shows

This is confusing me, because if this scene was just recently shot and added, than what was the cast talking about at SDCC when they talked about the final haunting scene? Were they talking about this? They knew about it but it just hadn't been shot yet? (Which kills the theory that this is a twist the writers just came up with recently.) Or were they talking about something else? Maybe the scene with Lance and Dahrk?

Edited October 8, 2015 by Starfish35

[lemotomato]

This is confusing me, because if this scene was just recently shot and added, than what was the cast talking about at SDCC when they talked about the final haunting scene? Were they talking about this? They knew about it but it just hadn't been shot yet? (Which kills the theory that this is a twist the writers just came up with recently.) Or were they talking about something else? Maybe the scene with Lance and Dahrk?

I think this scene was the "twist" and "haunting" scene that everyone was talking about since SDCC, and had always been in the script, but only filmed recently.

Edited October 8, 2015 by lemotomato

[BkWurm1]

I do think some of the exposition lines were terrible. I'm supposed to believe that Felicity is just now asking Oliver why he had his back tat removed? No. Nice try. I mean, maybe I could believe all her questions are sexed out of her, or perhaps that's my head canon, but even then, I am unable to suspend my disbelief. 

She asked him why he got that one removed.  I wondered if he'd had more than one removed and she was looking for a more specific answer than the standard "I don't need it".  I'm pretty sure it's not something he could have done without her noticing.  Lasers would leave the skin tender, wouldn't it?  The only other thing I could think about is maybe his tattoos are a sensitive subject and she was being supportive by not asking too many questions early on.  Or she always meant to ask for more details but the shirt would come off and suddenly the "subject" got changed. Having all her questions sexed out of her makes some fine head canon.  I thank you for that. 

 

It doesn't matter to me why she said it, it was cruel.

Eh, sometimes people are mean. 

 

That's another reason I'm throwing Roy into the Death Pool.  (see my post a couple of spots up)

 

Roy wouldn't have had very many people who would have come to his funeral. Thea might be out of her mind with grief or just out of her mind. And they might have wanted to keep it on DL but to give Roy some final respect.  It would also explain Oliver saying it wasn't his fault but his responsibility.  Or they came and left before Barry showed up.

 

 

So ummm after reading all the comments I realized that there is one character no one brought up.. one character that they can easily kill because the actor is no longer a cast member on the show... Roy!

 

killing Roy*, Roy dying will impact Oliver in many ways, including making him want to kill DD, not to mention Roy and Barry have met during last year crossover - and it's possible he's been to Central once or twice since leaving Starling, they have most likely formed some form of friendship.. he seemed to really get along with Cisco!

 

*notice how in the "last season on arrow" sequence after the Ray explosion scene they continued to a sequence of scenes were: Roy turned himself in as The Arrow, than getting supposedly stabbed in prison by Lyla ARGUS friend to fake his death in prison ending with him literally falling to the ground.

Why would they show Roy getting stabbed than show him falling to the ground without showing the audience him driving away safely? what purpose does showing us those scenes has?

 

Me think it could be Roy.

Something else that might support the Roy theory, the producers being coy about who they are killing.  CH is not under contract.  Not only would they have to lock him down at some nebulous time in the future, he has to agree to coming back.  Maybe he wouldn't want to come back to just die.  Or maybe his schedule would conflict.  It would make sense for them to keep their options open. 

 

Personally, I'd like there to be a twist and it's just a grave for burying Roy's arm.  Hey, they had a funeral for a body part in Fried Green Tomatoes.  Could happen.  :)  Good nod to the comics too!

 

It was a definite improvement on last season where I could barely see some of the action scenes because they were so damn dark. But I spotted the stunt doubles too often and it was distracting. Took me out of things a couple times.

 

I just don't have that skill.  I have almost never been able to spot a stunt double.  The exception was the Canaries fight last year.  I am probably happier in my blindness. 

Actually I don't think that was the scene. It was a different scene and she said something much worst but I can't remember exactly what it was but I know I was mad when she said it.

When she accused him of being happy if Ray went out and got himself killed?  Not the nicest thing but not sure if it was worse. 

 

Also, out of left field prediction, that the grave at the end, if it's not Quentin then it's Donna Smoak and Felicity is injured badly/in a coma, which is why she wasn't at the cemetery with Oliver. That should open up some storyline to pull in Felicity's dear old Dad, too

 

I'm of the never say never school of TV predicting but Donna currently is last on my list.  And if Donna died, behold the wrath of Smoak.  Oliver killing someone would be letting them off easy. 

[BkWurm1]

I can't believe Diggle told him he can't love. Too far Diggle. And you know good and well it's not true.

 

It really was over the top and hyperbolic.  If he actually believes it, then he can't think much of Felicity's relationship with Oliver.  Which is so said after how much of a supporter he'd been in the past.  I really hope the show takes some time to deal with Felicity and Diggle's relationship separately from Oliver and Diggle.  I can't help feel that he has some resentment toward her forgiving Oliver so quickly and then just going away.  If that's not the intended message being sent, then they need to fix the weird vibe.   

 

Dig was accepting her help,  but he's not treating her like a beloved, missed friend.   She told him to say hi to Lyla for her but that felt like Felicity making the effort, not Diggle.  There is repair work needed between them.  I'm feeling an icy breeze. 

[Starfish35]

Now that I've gotten my grumps out of the way, some things I did like....

The Diggle family scene. They are just the cutest. Don't you dare ever do anything to Lyla, writers.

Thea having crazy fun. I know this is at least partly due to LP effects, but it's nice to see at least one person enjoying what they do, instead of brooding about it.

Felicity's clothes. And hair. I like. :)

Felicity helping the team while they were gone, and their discussion about that. I liked how they handled it.....and lol, poor Felicity being so bored with domesticity.

I'm intrigued to find out just what could make Lance work for DD.

[Happy Harpy]

If not for S3, I wouldn't have minded the flashforward but I wasn't burned once, I was carbonized with the suckage so I'm not enjoying the speculation and less that it will last for so long. As someone said upthread, way to kill the mood of an otherwise almost excellent episode.

 

I think that Quentin is pulling an Oliver in the LOA's not-fun adventures. There is no way, no way that he'd work for a guy who wants his daughter dead. When Quentin has issues that he can't handle, he drinks and if he had to turn dark otherwise, he'd have imo done so after the Queen Gambit.

 

Add me to the list of people who are tired of characters piling on Oliver, especially since I believe that said characters should break the fourth wall and adress their complaints to the writers who screwed him up last season in order to promote their plethora of masked instant heroes. Diggle has a point, I see it, I agree with him that Oliver should have trusted him, but yes, the writers went too far on the "you can't love". He knows Oliver does love.

 

Also, they should never have Oliver and Laurel have any other interaction outside operational talk. The anti-chemistry was just incredible, with K.Cassidy desesperately trying to look intense and convey a deep connection and S.Amell trying as desperately to look like his character is giving a flying fuck. And there isn't any chemistry between D.Ramsey and K.Cassidy, either. The only moment I found their interactions believable was when Diggle was stern with Laurel. YMMV on all this, of course.

 

Imo, there's one reason that could explain why they don't know who's in the grave. I'm with , I think their "planned" candidate is Roy, "gotcha you didn't expect this did you and see, we didn't kill another female character".

But imo, they're waiting to see whether a certain character clicks or not with the audience. It could be a new character but with links with Oliver in the past. Or it could be that they're waiting to see whether Laurel/Black Canary can achieve a level of popularity that could finally allow them to make her the real leading lady of the show and Oliver's love interest again

which would also explain why there isn't, so far, any talk of LI for Laurel whereas on that show everybody has to have one

. If not, I think that Laurel could very well be in that grave (and yes, she's the one I'd like to see there). 

I don't think it will be Felicity anyway, unless they're living in LaLaLand and are really jealous of what happened to the HIMYM writers after the finale. And it better not be Diggle.

 

Finally, I'm not sure at all about the magic on this show. It feels out of place to me.

 

Otherwise:

-I loved, loved, loved, that Diggle was leading the team, and also that he had scenes with his family, which were adorable. He wasn't forgotten because O/F had domestic scenes. And I'm pretty sure that Felicity isn't going to sit iddle when her men are at odds, so I'm looking forward D/F scenes and OTA scenes and reconciliation (the sooner, the better).

-I love Thea on the field, she's the one who brought levity there imo, even if it's with a grain of crazy. And I still really like W.Holland's acting.

-Oliver/Felicity were nothing short of fantastic. This is how they should have been written last season. Watching one of their scenes is like eating a spoon of Nutella, and it's a perfect match with the show's bread. I loved the suburb scenes, I think I needed to see them after S3, I needed to see Oliver happy, and it was just the good dose for me. I would love to watch a 30 minutes sitcom about O/F with a concept of "No Ordinary Family". But I'm watching Arrow, so what made me even happier was how well they worked as partners who are lovers, and how I loved them even better and enjoyed their scenes even more, which I didn't think was possible. Love, respect, flirtiness, disagreements solved by talking like adults, you know...I won't get tired of this in two, three, ten seasons.

-N.McDonough has the gravitas and charisma to make a good villain. I'm a little worried about Damian being so openly evil, though, it could get old fast and NM is great at playing ambiguous characters. But I'm cautiously optimistic.

-Oliver Queen. For all his flaws, he's just so eager to do well, to do the best he can for others. He acknowledges and takes responsibility for his mistakes, and he means it, it's not just words, considering the crap he takes without even trying to exonerate himself a little. In S3, the blame game was too over the top, but this episode reminded me why Oliver is the main character of the show, the one whose story I want to know, the one I want a happy ending for, and why he's a hero.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[Starfish35]

with K.Cassidy desesperately trying to look intense and convey a deep connection and S.Amell trying as desperately to look like his character is giving a flying fuck.

Are you talking about the scene at the house where she was staring intensely at him? I noticed that too. I was like good grief, KC, dial it down.

[lemotomato]

Are you talking about the scene at the house where she was staring intensely at him? I noticed that too. I was like good grief, KC, dial it down.

I'm not sure what expression she was going for in that scene, but all I got was petulant and indignant. Like, "how dare you not jump at this chance I'm giving you to come back and help the city? what kind of hero are you?"

[AnyoneButYou]

Something else that might support the Roy theory, the producers being coy about who they are killing.  CH is not under contract.  Not only would they have to lock him down at some nebulous time in the future, he has to agree to coming back.  Maybe he wouldn't want to come back to just die.  Or maybe his schedule would conflict.  It would make sense for them to keep their options open. 

 

 

That conversation would be really awkward, I'd imagine. "Yo, Colton. We want you to come back and we know you want to come back, but we're going to kill you. Not like Sara "dead" but dead dead, but it'll be elegant. Roy would get a fresh gravestone not that old one like Sara had."

Edited October 8, 2015 by AnyoneButYou

[BkWurm1]

NOT killing Roy was a highlight of season three in the same way that KILLING Sara was a low point.  Do they feel that to undo one they have to reverse the other as well? 

[Happy Harpy]

Are you talking about the scene at the house where she was staring intensely at him? I noticed that too. I was like good grief, KC, dial it down.

Yes, it was that scene. The struggle to get something out of it was so obvious, it couldn't work in any way for me. And it didn't help that the two actresses whom S.Amell has the most chemistry imo with were in the same room.

 

NOT killing Roy was a highlight of season three in the same way that KILLING Sara was a low point.  Do they feel that to undo one they have to reverse the other as well? 

If this were Grey's Anatomy, the "symmetry" card would be 100% played in this case.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[BkWurm1]

Laurel was very Laurel in her demand to have Oliver return. There was no sweet talking or reasonable please reconsider or I know it might be hard. It was "Ok I hear what you said, now change your mind because obviously you can't mean it and I can not understand your emotions at all".

When they first arrived, Laurel was fine. Explaining what was going on was fine. But asking him to return. You'd think she was about to tell him it was his patriotic duty or something. The emotional disconnect was IMO strong.

Felicity clearly wanted to hop in the car and go but she was trying hard not to pressure Oliver until he asked her opinion and all while Thea and Laurel were explaining what was happening and what they wanted, Felicity was constantly touching and reassuring him. (The touching between them serving as silent conversations, might have been my favorite part of the episode). Felicity got that this was rough on him even if she still wanted him to go.

Edited October 8, 2015 by BkWurm1

[inconstancy]

No wonder Oliver didn't want to go back. Who wants to leave peace and happiness to go back to a hole of a city to get shot at, beaten up, and insulted at every turn? I've probably been hanging around too many kids lately, because all I was thinking after that pile-on-Oliver scene at the train station was, 'To hell with all of you! I hope DD blows up your stupid city and takes all of you out with it.'

 

Everyone except Oliver, Felicity, and Laurel aggravated me a lot this episode. I love Digg, but he's being an idiot. Not only is he holding a grudge over something that happened six (?) months ago, but his wife, the woman who was actually kidnapped and came out of it unharmed, has already forgiven Oliver. But Digg can't. Because Oliver is dark inside and can't love anyone and kicks puppies in his spare time.

 

Maybe the writers drew a name out of a hat, and it's Digg's turn to be overdramatic and stupid. But I hope it gets resolved soon, because it feels wrong to hate on Digg.

 

Oliver/Felicity were adorable, Laurel was pretty, Thea was okay, DD was appropriately menacing (if really wordy), and yay for Lyla and Baby Sara. Spaced out as I usually do during flashbacks. The graveyard scene seemed to me to hint at Felicity being dead (mostly because of the cut from the happy scene before), but it'll be easy for me to stop watching if she does die, so I won't get upset over that (yet).

 

Not a bad episode, despite my rage at the train station scene. Hope it improves next week!

Edited October 8, 2015 by inconstancy

[MSquared]

As for my two cents...5% of me thinks it's Felicity who's in the grave (mostly because the other 95% is screaming "No, No, NOOOOOO!!!).  But I am getting the feeling it's Lance.  I just feel like him working with DD is spelling his end.  They also talked in the interviews about him losing the moral high ground on Oliver.  His death would even them out again, in a way.

 

I will say, I kept praying when Oliver was at the headstone that he NOt put the ring on it.  The scene of him hiding it made me think it would reappear again. 

[dtissagirl]

Rewatched. Two things:

 

- While I'm finding DD the best villain they ever had after only one episode, I'm having a feeling this guy is totally getting multiple pages of monologuing in every script, and that's gonna get super tiring super fast.

 

- The main feeling I got from the flash-forward is they didn't tell Grant Gustin who died, and it showed.

[blixie]

 

They could portray his grief in whatever way they want,

 

 

The main feeling I got from the flash-forward is they didn't tell Grant Gustin who died, and it showed.

 

 

Exactly I don't even know if they told Amell, I feel like they called them in on a day off and said please act like this is the grave of a distant acquaintance parakeet. This is why I have zero emotions to give on this one, if they can't pretend to give a shit about how that scene looked and felt, and then announce in the press they don't know WHO it is but it will TOTES mean a lot and have "stakes"?  Like, no. NOPE.

 

ETA: the reason I'm convinced it's Lance is the reveal about working with DD, the main character can work with Malcolm Merlin and come back from it, because main character, but QL? It's just the biggest narrative bomb of the episode, and it's quickly followed by the flash forward. It's Lance. 

Edited October 8, 2015 by blixie

[GirlvsTV]

I guess I'm in the minority in that I didn't really think DD was all that great. He just seems like a typical evil guy who stands around giving evil speeches and then he kills a few people to show off how super bad he is. I get the desire to have someone just be purely evil, but villains work best when there is some kind of motivation for their desires. It's still really early though, so hopefully that will come later. The magic stuff seemed pretty generic too and fell flat with me. I don't have any issues with NM's portrayal I just didn't really feel there was anything that compelling about DD yet.

Also, I chuckled through that scene with DD doing his mystical mojo at then end because, as he was approaching the cabinet, I kept hearing DR and SA's voices in my head yelling, "What's in the box?!"

I don't know, I was really excited about this episode and I loved all the Oliver/Felicity stuff but I ended up feeling really disconnected to everything else. The 'new' Digg/Thea/LL team felt void of chemistry to me and I didn't get the impression they became a cohesive unit post Oliver. Digg lost me when he was overly harsh with Oliver, Thea was fine but didn't have that much to do and neither Lance ever had me so I really don't care about the twist or the grave.

I wish I knew why Oliver took the ring out of his pocket and stuck it in a bowl of marbles though.

[Sakura12]

What makes it worse for me is they seemed to have added this "twist" last minute. Didn't they film the funeral scene well after they finished filming Episode 1? 

[apinknightmare]

 

I wish I knew why Oliver took the ring out of his pocket and stuck it in a bowl of marbles though.

 

I guess it's because he had it in his pocket when he left and left the ring box in Ivy Town? Not sure why he wouldn't have put it somewhere safe sooner since they were obviously there for more than one day, but I guess they needed to remind us that the ring still exists, even though Oliver didn't propose. And to give us the shot of the ring right before the shot of the grave so everyone would think Felicity was dead. 

What makes it worse for me is they seemed to have added this "twist" last minute. Didn't they film the funeral scene well after they finished filming Episode 1? 

 

I don't think they decided on the "twist" last minute, since they were talking about a "haunting" last scene at Comic Con. I think it was always intended to be there, they just couldn't/didn't shoot it until recently for whatever reason. 

Edited October 8, 2015 by apinknightmare

[dtissagirl]

My guess would be the super late shoot happened because the network told them to add GG to the scene.

[greekmom]

I'm thinking Lance or Oliver's son.  Within the period of 6 months he finds and loses his son.  That way I can see the tears being more than Lance but the writers not getting rid of the main group. 

[Sakura12]

I don't know they said they haven't decided who died yet, so I wouldn't put it past them to have just thought of this epic game changing plot twist. 

 

As for the haunting the rest of the season, didn't PB say he does something that haunts the rest of the season? If he didn't say that, then I guess the "who died" will haunt the rest of the season. Which I'm fine with because I know it's not Sara that died. 

 

All of you know who I'd want it to be, but watch it be some random they introduce in the next few eps. That's how these writers like to roll.  

Edited October 8, 2015 by Sakura12

[Morrigan2575]

I think PB said the final minute of 401 would haunt the rest of the season.

[Primetimer]

There's a new villain, a new city name, and even a new name for the titular hero. It's a new Arrow day!

Read the story

[Sakura12]

Oh, okay. I guess it was in the script they just didn't film it yet. 

 

Although I like the writers with the "We're starting Arrow out on a lighter tone....with another death" Yay! 

 

I suppose it is lighter than tossing Sara in the garbage, since we don't know who it is or how they died.

Edited October 8, 2015 by Sakura12

[AyChihuahua]

I said a few weeks ago that I thought the audience would start to turn on Digg for being mad at Oliver, and regular posters here poo-poo'd it...but see above, people are already starting to turn on Digg.

[apinknightmare]

Well, I was always uninterested in 6 months of Digg anger, but if he'd just remained terse it would've been okay. But he was downright hateful to Oliver with his whole not knowing how to love BS-which would've made more sense if he'd said it immediately after the kidnapping when tensions were still high. Now it just seems incredibly out of character.

I do get him being upset about Oliver leaving Sara alone, but I really do not get him being angry about Lyla, a fucking badass chick who holds her own and even SHE isn't mad at Oliver anymore. If Digg hadn't gone all hateful in that train station, I don't think it would be that big a deal, especially since they managed to work together otherwise despite their differences.

Edited October 8, 2015 by apinknightmare

[bethy]

Laurel's stupid "bones" comment made me so annoyed and ragey that I missed Waller's saying the same thing. Of course they had to call back Laurel's ridiculous "I know you in your bones" statement. Of course. But if they had Waller say it, too, maybe the implication isn't that Laurel actually does know Oliver in his bones - BECAUSE SHE DOESN'T - and instead that only people who don't know him and are trying to manipulate him into doing something use that phrase. I'll need to go back and rewatch with a calmer attitude.

 

Please don't make me hate Diggle, show. I get that he was wronged and has a right to be angry, but don't make him so mean and petty that he's telling Oliver that he can't love anyone. Don't do that. I feel like, once again (like Diggle advocating abandoning Roy) they're putting words in the character's mouth that don't belong there. 

[blixie]

Saying Dig is full of shit about Oliver being evil and unable to love is not '"turning" on Dig. I love Dig despite the hapless hacks who write him increasingly out of character. Dig is entitled to have as many wrongheaded asshole moments as Oliver, so I ain't mad him, but wrong is wrong: and that ish she laid on Oliver is WRONG.

[Sakura12]

I think there is a big difference with Lyla. She's not close friends with Oliver. Dig is. Friends don't kidnap each other's wives and leave their kids alone. With the excuse being she was the best option or she can handle herself. That's not the point. Oliver thought Dig's family was expendable. If he truly knew that she wouldn't get hurt then he could've taken anyone. 

 

What if she had gotten seriously injured by trying to fight back, what then? If taking Dig/Thea/Laurel could've got them hurt why can't the same logic apply to Lyla?

Edited October 8, 2015 by Sakura12

[Angel12d]

I'm not mad at Diggle. He did go too far though, with what he said. Telling Oliver that he doesn't love? DUMB. He stood by his side last season knowing how much Oliver loves Felicity. That logic made no sense. But I can hand wave that as Diggle lashing out and saying stupid things to intentionally hurt him. People do that. It's human.

 

Saying all that, I hope this doesn't drag out for the whole season. That would be a mistake. 

 

 

I don't know, I was really excited about this episode and I loved all the Oliver/Felicity stuff but I ended up feeling really disconnected to everything else. The 'new' Digg/Thea/LL team felt void of chemistry to me and I didn't get the impression they became a cohesive unit post Oliver. Digg lost me when he was overly harsh with Oliver, Thea was fine but didn't have that much to do and neither Lance ever had me so I really don't care about the twist or the grave.
 

 

I agree with this. It felt like a placeholder team. I think they tried to lay it on thick with Laurel only accepting commands from Diggle but there was absolutely no spark or anything. Pretty bland actually. 

Edited October 8, 2015 by Angel12d

[cambridgeguy]

 

Why is Diggle not seriously hurt after Laurel blew the back of that truck up with him right there and the door wide open?

It's the helmet, it has magical properties.  That's the only reason to wear such a horrible looking thing that seems like it would wipe out his peripheral vision. Of course that's also true for the hoods that Ollie and Thea use so who knows.

 

I wonder what the people of Star City think of being addressed by a guy who has the EXACT same gimmick as the supposedly deceased Arrow.  Wow Green Arrow, you're totally different from that other Arrow guy even though you kind of look and sound like him.  The lighter shade of green totally works!