S04.E01: Green Arrow

[AyChihuahua]

I'm taking a step back from the show and from this forum (not quitting, just reducing time spent). 

 

I loved this episode - up until the last 2 minutes.  That last, gravesite scene killed much of my enthusiasm for this season.  I was genuinely upset, which made me realize how attached I've become to fictional characters on a fictional TV show.

 

Either it was a deliberate mislead (making us think Felicity is going to die), or it was a massive spoiler disguised as a mislead (Felicity is actually going to die).  Either way, it's the Sword of Damocles hanging over the next six months. Either way, I don't know if I want to ride the emotional rollercoaster train into possible heartbreak in April.

 

I resent like hell TIIC for using such a cheap, manipulative plot device to make me feel this way about one of my fave shows.  If Felicity dies, I'm done with the show.

I am sure it's not Felicity, but I am with you.  It pisses me off, and I hated S3 so very much (months of rage insomnia) that they had very little leeway with me.  So I am not watching again until that storyline is over, and by then I may have just forgotten about the show.

[Password]

I'm weirdly unbothered by this graveside scene. When I watched it I FREAKED out but I'm far too excited about other aspects of the show to be scared of who will die. If it's Felicity, the CW doesn't like money. If it's Quentin, no complaints. If it's Laurel, no complaints. If it's Oliver's kid STOP LETTING CHILDREN DIE ARROW. If it's the baby mama, I'm not attached but a shame to orphan a kid.

No one is happy in Star City.

[Raja]

. While I complain that nobody would stay in Star City or Gotham after what has been shown as the shows try to one up each other and Marvel. And why hasn't the National Guard and every Federal Agent not deep undercover flood the respective cities? Gotham did the decapitation of the city's leadership better

[Angel12d]

I'm weirdly unbothered by this graveside scene. When I watched it I FREAKED out but I'm far too excited about other aspects of the show to be scared of who will die. If it's Felicity, the CW doesn't like money. If it's Quentin, no complaints. If it's Laurel, no complaints. If it's Oliver's kid STOP LETTING CHILDREN DIE ARROW. If it's the baby mama, I'm not attached but a shame to orphan a kid.

No one is happy in Star City.

 

I really hated that graveside scene when I watched the episode. It tainted things for me. But now I'm pretty okay with it. I still think it's a cheap ploy and is playing with the audience and I'm sure when they have to actually film a funeral in the future it will look dumb because of continuity issues. But a death happening in the future is not going to stop me watching now because there's too much I want to see - Olicity, Diggle/H.I.V.E., Oliver/Diggle…etc. 

 

The only moment I'll stop watching is if they actually do kill Felicity. Then I'll be done. Until then I want to see how things play out. 

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, I'm okay with it post-show. I'll only be bothered if it's Felicity, and if it is then my Wednesday nights would be free, so that'd be a win for me.

[foreverevolving]

Eh, since I 100% don't believe the person in that grave is Felicity or Thea and I'm 95% sure it isn't Diggle, while I think it will be interesting to see it play out - I don't think I will be annoyed or pissed about the Flash Forward when it's all said and done.  I mean, yes I totally think they are trolling us in their own way, but it kind of makes me laugh more than anything else.

 

Oh yea, I'm also fairly positive it isn't Laurel.  Besides the fact that they really do seem to want to keep the GA/BC team up going even without the romance, Laurel's character could easily go into reoccurring status and pop up on any of the shows - kind of like Roy.  I don't think they would kill her - or Roy - off when keeping them alive lets them bring in those characters for big super hero team up sweeps type episodes.  So even in KC wanted to go do other stuff, I think they'd keep their options open with her rather than killing her.

 

And let's face it, I think they realized they made a HUGE mistake killing off Sara and while Laurel might not be as popular (especially around these parts), why piss off any fandom and have to backtrack when they can just say that Laurel has gone off with Helena and formed up a group named after some birds or something like that? 

 

By the way, is it wrong that now that they are introducing multiple worlds on Flash that I really - like really, really - want to see Helena Wayne find her way over to our Earth and do a team up with Laurel, Felicity, and Thea?  Yea, yea I know the show is named Arrow, but throw a girl a bone - my BoP show only lasted 13 episodes - I need a fix. :)

Oh yea and I like light, smiley, fluffy Oliver - now someone infuse him with some smartass snark and let the wisecracking begin. :)

I'd love to see them bring on the injustice world versions of them.. for some reason evil Olicity (with felicity as a goth) sounds very, very! sexy to me.

[looptab]

What Angel12d said. Personally I couldn't care less at the moment, I'll enjoy the show and live in my bubble of  certainty that it's not Felicity, Because Cancellation, as AyChihuahua put it.

Edited October 9, 2015 by looptab

[dtissagirl]

I feel like I'm super zen about the death itself, but at the same time, I'm always annoyed by narratives that insert ME [i.e. the audience] into the structure. Last season they were writing for gotchas. I really really hope this season isn't gonna be written for fandom wank.

 

Dream scenario: no clues, no foreshadowing, no allusion at all to who might be dying until whoever dies. No part of the narrative speaking to me.

[Chaos Theory]

[edited by mod. Please discuss your own opinions, not other people's].

I really like Laurel [edited by mod] UO as it is. Oh well I have a ton of them. Big one is at least Laurel is fun. Felicity has gotten boring.

Edited October 10, 2015 by MuuMuuChainsmoker

[Chaser]

Random thoughts:

 

Star City went to hell. The new Team wasn't successful at all.

 

I don't understand Felicity helping them the whole time, but they had no traction on the 'Ghosts' until she was physically there. Then they got all the traction. I'm annoyed that we didn't get a Diggle and Felicity scene, but I also find it weird that Thea and Laurel didn't make any type of mention of Felicity helping them. They were uneven with the CEO thing too. She starts the episode by being very concerned, but in the limo she has that line about them actually expecting her to work. I love how she delivered the line, but it was inconsistent and I didn't like that. 

 

The voice thing with Oliver. It wasn't as bad on re-watch for me. It was really just with Felicity, it took a more light hearted tone. Which makes sense he would be more relaxed with her and more reserved with everyone else.

 

That fight scene in the warehouse. There were moments when the bad guys would just stand around and wait to get hit. Remember when the fights were good?

 

Every scene with Lance and Laurel in the police station was a slap to the face. It was so stupid. She is following her Dad around talking about mask business really really loudly. They couldn't just write the scene in his office? It would have fixed everything with that scene. ADA Laurel is a fixture in that office. Buckles Canary running over super concerned to a hurt Lance and having a conversation. I can't. 

 

Healthy Oliver is a turn-on. The train station scene with Thea/Lance/Diggle and then the conversation with Felicity after showed a lot of growth on his part. I think this scene was the reason for the 'bones' lines. Who you are in your bones was tied to embracing your darkness. It's one of the big reasons he didn't want to go back. That's why it's important he be a different kind of person (change his bones if you will). Embrace the light instead of the darkness. Maybe they were mocking that horrible bones line?

 

Bromance on the train. It was also probably their best action scene of the episode. The Laurel/Kid scene is actually worse on re-watch. Thea is on the rafters yelling at everyone to get out. Lance is on the megaphone directing everyone. They are doing something. The shot we got of Laurel is her helping a kid up that tripped. The station is about to explode and all these people are going to die and she takes the moment to smile and wink at the kid. She basks in his praise. They literally wrote in a FANBOY. 

 

Diggle is even colder then I remember. That train conversation needed to be dialed down. POD Diggle. I'm so glad we had that Diggle and Lyla scene. The character needed the moment. I'm excited for HIVE. I really hate Diggle keeping it to himself. It doesn't feel right. I'm hoping he at least tells Lyla. 

 

I still don't have a better understanding of Quentin and DD. They seemed to throw out the S1/S2 Quentin to make this happen. 

[KirkB]

I want to start where a lot of others have, with Diggle. First, the helmet. It protects his skull, yes, but Diggle is as much if not more a shooter than a puncher, and I think peripheral vision is kind of important for that. Plus it looks goofy as hell. Even Magneto admits his looks goofy, he's just willing to put up with it so telepaths can't get into his head. What's Diggle's excuse? And I get why he's being cold toward Oliver. I would be more disappointed if he just welcomed Oliver back with open arms. I'm not married and I don't have any kids but I have to imagine if someone kidnapped someone I cared about and left someone else who was helpless home alone for an extended period of time I might not want anything to do with them again either.

 

Laurel. Okay, I get the show thinks she is the coolest thing since sliced bread and the EP's (plus Katie Cassidy) want to reinforce just how badass she is supposed to be, but a random child being impressed isn't really the best way to do it. You don't need to keep having people TELL us how cool she is, just have her stunt double DO awesome stuff and win her fights and at least we'll be able to see why she's getting so much praise. Half the time I get the impression Laurel is doing what she's doing for the sake of getting affirmation from people she stops to talk to.

 

I don't know if it was intentional or not, but Quentin's scene with DD made me think he wasn't doing it entirely of his own free will. Especially since they went out of their way to all of a sudden tell us magic is real in this world, and that Oliver is familiar with it, which makes his initial surprise at super powers a little harder to understand but I digress. I suppose he could have thought DD was like Palmer, a rich eccentric who wanted to help out, and by the time he realized what the guy was like he was in too deep,though Lance doesn't strike me as the kind of person who would put concern over his career ahead of the lives of the people of Star City.

 

The ending was a cheap shot. I know they did it so they can get people wondering and talking about it for the next six months, but by the time somebody really does die is anyone really going to care? If anything it'll be relief than the teases are over. From a narrative standpoint wouldn't they be better off getting to the mid season break (where I assume this will pan out) and then shocking everyone by suddenly killing Roy or whoever. Starting the story by telling you where it ends and then working up to it is a trope I really have never liked.

[Starfish35]

Starting the story by telling you where it ends and then working up to it is a trope I really have never liked.

Agreed.

[FortKnox]

When they were talking about the mayor my mind went to Oliver Queen running for Mayor and winning. They briefly did something like that in the comics.

Edited October 9, 2015 by FortKnox

[dtissagirl]

They literally wrote in a FANBOY.

 

DING DING DING. Judges, we have a winner.

[Primal Slayer]

The Laurel/Kid scene is actually worse on re-watch. Thea is on the rafters yelling at everyone to get out. Lance is on the megaphone directing everyone. They are doing something. The shot we got of Laurel is her helping a kid up that tripped. The station is about to explode and all these people are going to die and she takes the moment to smile and wink at the kid. She basks in his praise. They literally wrote in a FANBOY.

She helps him up theb smiles/winks at him then he "praises" her and she tells him to go. If she basked in his praise they would be standing there longer then a second. A 5second scene.

[Angel12d]

[Deleted by mod. Don't discuss "Olicity fans" or their reactions]

Don't mind me. Just watching the Olicity scenes again. For reasons. LOL. ;P

Edited October 10, 2015 by MuuMuuChainsmoker

[Chaser]

She helps him up theb smiles/winks at him then he "praises" her and she tells him to go. If she basked in his praise they would be standing there longer then a second. A 5second scene.

 

A 5second scene that highlights all the problems with the writing of this character.

 

Lance and Thea were given 5 seconds too. In those moments they were going something productive. Laurel's moment was statement by the writers.

 

They should have skipped the awe-moment. Have him fall, have Laurel swing him up, pass him to his parents and then turn around and yell at the crowd to keep moving. 

[Primal Slayer]

Her helping him up was fine imo, she was obviously helping, saw the kid, helped him, they cut away from her after that. Nothing to show that she did/didn't scream at the crowd.

Her helping that kid is just as productive.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Primal Slayer

[Chaser]

I didn't have a problem with her helping the kid. I had a problem with the wink and you're so strong line. In my opinion, that's where the scene failed. 

Edited October 9, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[HighwayFlower]

Helping a kid, sure. That's great. But the "your so strong" and the wink were completely out of place and totally felt like they writers were just going

"See!??? She is awesome and the kiddies love her!!"

I mean, does the team hire her out for birthday parties? How can they expect us to take her seriously with scenes like that?

[apinknightmare]

Helping the kid was cute, I just wish he'd said something less ridiculous to her, haha.

[Delphi]

He's a kid. Kids are easily impressed with costumed types. Happens all the time, I don't think it's a big deal. I also dont think a reassuring wink is a big deal.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Delphi

[Sakura12]

It's the kid thing plus Cisco acting like Laurel's the greatest thing since sliced bread. At that point she was in the beginning of her training and didn't do all that much and Cisco acted like she was the most amazing person he's ever seen and he hangs around a guy with with super powers. Why would an untrained Laurel impress him at all? 

 

I get Cisco's an excitable person, but the people we've seen get excited about have actual super powers. Which is impressive. Laurel had nothing going for her at that time. 

[Primal Slayer]

Helping a kid, sure. That's great. But the "your so strong" and the wink were completely out of place and totally felt like they writers were just going

"See!??? She is awesome and the kiddies love her!!"

I mean, does the team hire her out for birthday parties? How can they expect us to take her seriously with scenes like that?

1 kid has to equal all kids? Yeah the phrase was corny but apart from that, i didn't see a problem with it. If they wanted to use it they shouldve had her swing him over her shoulder and run him somewhere but oh well.

It's the kid thing plus Cisco acting like Laurel's the greatest thing since sliced bread. At that point she was in the beginning of her training and didn't do all that much and Cisco acted like she was the most amazing person he's ever seen and he hangs around a guy with with super powers. Why would an untrained Laurel impress him at all?

I get Cisco's an excitable person, but the people we've seen get excited about have actual super powers. Which is impressive. Laurel had nothing going for her at that time.

She being the first female masked hero probably had a lot to do with it. It was all about him being a fanboy in general. People can be impressed by her, doesn't mean they have seen every single fight she's been in. Leading a charge against Brick is good enough for some people.

[Chaser]

Sara.

[apinknightmare]

Sara.

Sadly, Cisco never got a chance to meet her.

[Primal Slayer]

Sara.

Was dead.

[Velocity23]

They need to do something with KCs hair. There is a gif floating around on twitter where she basically fights with her hair for a hot moment.

[Chaser]

My bad, I should have expanded on that. It really wasn't about Cisco meeting Laurel. It was about Laurel being referenced as the first female superhero. She is the sequel. 

 

Her being a masked female was probably involved in his excitement. 

Edited October 9, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[GirlvsTV]

Lol, they even gave the wink moment a jaunty little musical cue in the midst of the chaos and panic. So dumb.

[kismet]

I liked the 'lighter' tone of the Oliver/Felicity fight (which doesn't really seem like a fight so much as a discussion). They were probably trying to keep that interaction as far away as possible from the angsty-angst of last season and didn't want to give the viewer any impression Felicity and Oliver were on the verge of splitting.

There was a moment later on in the episode, after Oliver gets crap-talked by everyone, where Felicity asks if he was worried he'd forgotten how to make his broody face and you can see Oliver lighten up just slightly. I like that he's finally at a point where he's able to snap out of those broody/self-flagellation moods a little and that Felicity seems to be able to help with that.

After re-watching, I actually got the impression Oliver decided to suit up again more for Felicity than himself. That makes more sense to me because I didn't really see a moment where Oliver suddenly found a new sense-of-purpose. I mean, we see the big speech he made but, as a viewer, I never felt like we got why he accepted the hood again. He tells Felicity that he did miss some aspects of Arrow life, but I didn't get the impression he missed it more than he loved his new slowcooker. Hopefully we'll see him re-discover the hero in his bones (lol) over the next stretch of episodes. Maybe that is ultimately what grave-side Oliver meant when he talked about his responsibility?

I am actually really okay if that is part of his journey this season, although as with pretty much everything else on this show I wish the writers had given it more time. It would've been more meaningful if he found that sense-of-purpose and then suited up again, but I'll take whatever tiny character crumbs I can get these days.

Also, I find it funny that given all the action stuff in the premiere the fight everyone seems to be talking about is the Oliver/Felicity one.

Haven't rewatched it, bit definitely got the impression that OQ is suiting up primarily for FS. I think they are going to reboot his hero's journey again from the beginning. He's gonna be to start from scratch become hero. Those damn writers. Its probably going to bv the same beats all over again.

I think O/F relationship will survive, but I definitely was surprised she was not telling the whole truth to OQ for 5 months. It was a little shocking, perhaps that's why more people are talking about that fight instead of the action which was run of mill for Arrow.

[Primal Slayer]

My bad, I should have expanded on that. It really wasn't about Cisco meeting Laurel. It was about Laurel being referenced as the first female superhero. She is the sequel.

Her being a masked female was probably involved in his excitement.

And i meant she was the first female superhero that he had met.

[bethy]

I think one of the things I find frustrating about the Cisco fan-boying and the "You're so strong!" to Laurel is that none of the other heroes who are out in the public eye get that treatment. None of them. Sarah didn't; Roy didn't; Speedy hasn't; Diggle hasn't; Oliver certainly hasn't. I don't remember any other time someone has taken the time to complement or even thank the masks who have saved them. That they've made a point more than once to have people tell Laurel how awesome she is annoys me for that reason. 

[HighwayFlower]

Lol, they even gave the wink moment a jaunty little musical cue in the midst of the chaos and panic. So dumb.

The wink was just so she could show off the mascara it apparently takes a half hour to apply.

[SonofaBiscuit]

They need to do something with KCs hair. There is a gif floating around on twitter where she basically fights with her hair for a hot moment.

 

My guess is that the stunt double is flinging her hair around so we can't see her face, but it's kinda distracting.  I mean, we can see all of the other stunt double's faces, so I don't know why they are bothering with it.  And while I'm talking about that, man what happened with this show and stunts?!.  They were so much better in the first two seasons and I don't remember ever being able to get a good clear look at the stunt double's faces (they weren't even trying with the Ra's cliff fight last season).

Edited October 9, 2015 by SonofaBiscuit

[HighwayFlower]

The hair is totaly done to hide the stunt double, and it looks obvious and awful!

[Velocity23]

I spoted Atlin several times in 4x01. So they are not doing a good job. But that was all KC.

[kismet]

Wow, am I really the only one that had almost no problem with the flash fwd gravesite scene even on first watching? I didn't feel cheated or tricked. It wasn't even a twist for me. Perhaps I was just excited to s3 somber OQ again.

It was a little cheesy and pedestrian, but these are the same writers that gave us that "you're so strong line" and the stupidity of s3? I guess I set my expectations of them low. It helps that I never watch Arrow to wowed anymore. I want to be wowed but I know that they are just not able to do it anymore. Arrow is like my comfortable hoody, I always bring it with me and love it, but its not garnering any fashion awards or compliments. I watch arrow cuz I love it but not cuz its amazing.

Edited October 9, 2015 by kismet

[Morrigan2575]

My guess is that the stunt double is flinging her hair around so we can't see her face, but it's kinda distracting.  I mean, we can see all of the other stunt double's faces, so I don't know why they are bothering with it.  And while I'm talking about that, man what happened with this show and stunts?!.  They were so much better in the first two seasons and I don't remember ever being able to get a good clear look at the stunt double's faces (they weren't even trying with the Ra's cliff fight last season).

 

replying in bitterness thread.

[Primal Slayer]

They had Cisco swoon over the Arrow cave,praise Roys costume "red is so cooler then green"

I think one of the things I find frustrating about the Cisco fan-boying and the "You're so strong!" to Laurel is that none of the other heroes who are out in the public eye get that treatment. None of them. Sarah didn't; Roy didn't; Speedy hasn't; Diggle hasn't; Oliver certainly hasn't. I don't remember any other time someone has taken the time to complement or even thank the masks who have saved them. That they've made a point more than once to have people tell Laurel how awesome she is annoys me for that reason.

[lemotomato]

I think one of the things I find frustrating about the Cisco fan-boying and the "You're so strong!" to Laurel is that none of the other heroes who are out in the public eye get that treatment. None of them. Sarah didn't; Roy didn't; Speedy hasn't; Diggle hasn't; Oliver certainly hasn't. I don't remember any other time someone has taken the time to complement or even thank the masks who have saved them. That they've made a point more than once to have people tell Laurel how awesome she is annoys me for that reason.

This is exactly what bothers me about that train station moment. If it happened to Thea, I'd still be annoyed. Oliver's been saving the city for 3 years and the closest thing to a public "thank you" was Lance's announcement in 3x01 that they weren't going to treat him like a criminal anymore (which lasted all of 17 episodes). Meanwhile,  Ray got the city re-named in his honor, Laurel gets actual on screen fanboys, and everyone shits on Oliver after he leaves his comfortable, well-earned retirement because they asked him for help. The Arrow writers are jerks.

Edited October 9, 2015 by lemotomato

[kismet]

I spoted Atlin several times in 4x01. So they are not doing a good job.

I feel bad for Atlin's neck. Hopefully she doesn't get hurt. Hairography can be dangerous :)

[SonofaBiscuit]

I spoted Atlin several times in 4x01. So they are not doing a good job. But that was all KC.

 

 

Oh yeah, that was the scene where Dig kept telling her "Let's go" (or something similar), and I was wondering why she wasn't running away.  Realistically, they should tie her hair back, but I know they're not going to do that for aesthetic reasons.  In a real fight, no way your opponent wouldn't just grab onto all of that hair, which would surely hurt like hell!

[calliope1975]

Realistically, they should tie her hair back, but I know they're not going to do that for aesthetic reasons.  In a real fight, no way your opponent wouldn't just grab onto all of that hair, which would surely hurt like hell!

 

I really hate that women fighters/superheroes have to be "sexy" while they're fighting criminals. Loose hair not only looks stupid - see above gif - it's also a hazard. The first thing Laurel and Thea should be doing is securing their hair. Thea's is shorter and she has the hood so that's some protection, but I'm still not giving it much credit. All I can picture is Laurel's hair always flying in her mouth especially when she's on the bike. 

[HighwayFlower]

The flying hair only made sense as a wig, because as someone once mentioned with Sara, if they grabbed the wig off it gave her a chance to spin and re-attack or take off.

But even that's a stretch.

[kismet]

This is exactly what bothers me about that train station moment. If it happened to Thea, I'd still be annoyed. Oliver's been saving the city for 3 years and the closest thing to a public "thank you" was Lance's announcement in 3x01 that they weren't going to treat him like a criminal anymore (which lasted all of 17 episodes). Meanwhile Ray got the city re-named in his honor, Laurel gets actual on screen fanboys, and everyone shits on Oliver for coming back to help. Yay.

I really wanted OQ to hop the next train out of SC. He deserves to be treated with more respect. I wanted him to tell his sourpuss faced "friends" that begged him to come back that the could just do it themselves if his way of talking to them was insulting. You don't beg help and then sit there being pissed at his methods. He apologized and even then they were all high & mighty. It was BS. Only one that treated him fairly was Dig & that's cuz he got a pass cuz of preexisting beef.

The other thing that annoyed me, if we are doing this new team thing - why were the other team members not in the video? OQ could have given the speech surrounded by his team. Either its a team or it's OQ's mission, they are trying to have it both ways and it's not working. I'm not invested in the new team and frankly, I'm not sure OQ is either. He doesn't want them to die, but not sure he cares if they win or not. And why should he? They clearly don't value his role on the team.

[Primal Slayer]

Having an X2 moment would've been cool with all the members on camera shrouded in darkness.

[kismet]

They all wear masks the darkness would have been overkill. The only one that needs to be in darkness would have been FS and she could have remained off camera.

But I'm not buying this new team concept either on the show or as a story device.

[bethy]

They had Cisco swoon over the Arrow cave,praise Roys costume "red is so cooler then green"

 

For me, neither of those examples are comparable. The Arrow cave isn't one of the heroes. And telling Roy the color of his suit is cool (because it's the same color as the Flash's) wasn't about how awesome Roy himself was. 

[lemotomato]

I really wanted OQ to hop the next train out of SC. He deserves to be treated with more respect. I wanted him to tell his sourpuss faced "friends" that begged him to come back that the could just do it themselves if his way of talking to them was insulting. You don't beg help and then sit there being pissed at his methods. He apologized and even then they were all high & mighty. It was BS. Only one that treated him fairly was Dig & that's cuz he got a pass cuz of preexisting beef.

I want this kind of scene for Oliver so badly after the train station.