Captain America: Civil War (2016)

[bmoore4026]

9 hours ago, DollEyes said:

 Highlights from Chris Evans' and Elizabeth Olsen's appearance on Ellen:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44mN0LsU998

I wouldn't mind being surprised by Chris Evans :3

I was wondering if the TV Spot version of Exile Atsushi had been released yet?  Is there anywhere in America I could get it, besides YouTube.

[MadyGirl1987]

Just got back and loved it. Tony and Steve fighting was hard to watch at points, they really went for it. Especially loved the introduction of Spidey and the Black Panther's arc.

What got the biggest reaction from the audience was anything Spider-Man and 

Spoiler

Giant Man!

Just FYI; there are two end credits scenes. I heard somewhere there was only one. Decided to wait until the end just in case and caught it. Just in case others were only expecting one as well so they don't miss it.

[JessePinkman]

So. Much. To. Process.

But I will say right now my mind is just screaming WAKANDA!

[methodwriter85]

It started off slow, but once we got to Spiderman, it really took off, and I loved how nasty and brutal everything got.

I was shocked that they didn't wrap everything up in a happy ending.

Also, I love that Aunt May is basically a Gen Xer now. She's literally only 11 years older than Tobey Maguire. Seeing her with Tony jogged a very vague memory of a romantic comedy Marisa and Robert did called Only You, back in the 90's.

Edited May 6, 2016 by methodwriter85

[Guest]

I loved it. I thought it was fantastic. Just when I was starting to feel things were dragging, they brought all the Avengers together and things got more interesting/funnier/better overall.

I did not like the cinematography for the first half or so of the movie. The action scenes seemed very jerky and almost made me dizzy. I thought the plot was logical and you could really see both sides of the story.

I liked how they left it a little open ended as well.

[JessePinkman]

Spider-Man:

They did it. They finally, after nearly 20 years of trying, got Spider-Man right onscreen. I feel like he literally leapt off of the comic book page, he was equal parts exuberant, awkward, funny and intelligent, basically everything you could want from a portrayal of Spider-Man. I don't know how they did it but they did it.

Black Panther:

When they showed Wakanda (and that GIANT PANTHER STATUE) as the technologically advanced society it should be I screamed internally. My biggest fear with this character is that they'd do "Hollywood Africa". Thank GOD that's not happening. The Marvel movies get a lot of shit for being jokey (which is BS but let's not) so it was nice to introduce a character that is completely counter to that. He was a man on a mission, he didn't have time for quips or meet-cutes. I cannot wait for his movie. Chadwick Boseman killed it in this role. Just...wow.

Cap Vs. Iron Man:

Fuck this movie for making my cynical ass think that either Iron Man or Cap could die in that final battle. I know that there's no way they'd kill either of them right now in this movie but I still sat there for a good 20 minutes holding my breath during their fight scene. They went whole hog with that, they were just whaling on each other and it was everything you could want from a superhero fight.

The most amazing this feat this movie accomplished was having me mentally flip flop between Team Cap and Team Iron Man. I went into the movie totally #TeamCap and came out just fucking confused. Cap is doing everything he can to save his friend, hold onto the last bit of his old life and not succumb to the pressures and whims of shortsighted governments. And Tony is trying to prevent atrocities from happening at all because he's fully aware of the pain that follows, his own past mistakes are constantly being thrown in his face.

"He killed my mom". WHY ARE YOU BREAKING MY HEART, TONY???

If you'd asked me a few weeks if the best comic book movie sequence ever filmed involved our heroes fighting each in what looks like the parking lot of a mall I'd tell you to go fuck yourself but here. We. Are.

So many more thoughts but mostly this movie was everything The Avengers sequel should have been and I LIKED Ultron.

[DkNNy79]

Will I be lost seeing this if I did not see Age of Ultron?  I've seen all the Iron Man and Captain America movies as well as the first Avengers film.

[calliope1975]

14 minutes ago, DkNNy79 said:

Will I be lost seeing this if I did not see Age of Ultron?  I've seen all the Iron Man and Captain America movies as well as the first Avengers film.

There are a few characters introduced in AoU that are in this movie - Vision and Wanda. As far as plot from AoU, I don't think you're missing much other than more distrust of superheroes.

I loved it so much. I went in #TeamCap and came out #TeamCap but Tony wasn't wrong either. "He killed my mom." Sob. I loved how badass Natasha was in the first fight, and she got to wear (almost) flat boots to kick ass. I liked that during the big team fights, you could tell they were all pulling their punches - except Wanda, but that last fight was brutal. 

I was one who wanted Miles Morales or a POC Peter Parker, but damn if that kid didn't win me over. Some guy in my theater said he'd just seen the best Spider-Man movie inside another movie. 

Bucky's plight reminded me a bit of Jessica Jones. How much are you responsible for if you're not in control at the time? It's not an easy answer, and I'm glad it didn't have a all's forgiven happy ending. It did end with some hope though. 

I can't wait two years for T'Challa and Wakanda. I need it now! 

ETA: Much like Ant-Man, Giant Man should have not worked and been ridiculous, but instead, it was amazing. I hope Spidey and Ant-Man have an insect team up.

Edited May 6, 2016 by calliope1975

[Guest]

43 minutes ago, DkNNy79 said:

Will I be lost seeing this if I did not see Age of Ultron?  I've seen all the Iron Man and Captain America movies as well as the first Avengers film.

One of the main plots of the movie is the aftermath of a big event in Age of Ultron. But I think this movie still makes sense without it.  But as mentioned by a previous poster, there are two new characters you won't know.

[SeanC]

Quite good.  I'm not sure I like it quite as much as the previous Captain America films, but it's a much better sequel to both Iron Man and The Avengers than any of those movies' actual sequels (less the somewhat awkward writing-out of Pepper).  Much as I liked it, I do in some ways wish we'd gotten something that was a bit more solidly Captain America 3 - Sharon Carter, especially, has been really underserved in the series, even if I liked the part she had in this.  Even Bucky at times feels like his internal life is focused on less than it could be.

The stuff with Spider-Man is totally extraneous (bordering on illogical; Iron Man is given 36 hours and wastes several of them flying to New York and then making a new supersuit, then flies back to Germany), but it was all quite entertaining, and I like both the new actor and Marisa Tomei's Aunt May (who, age-wise, is a lot closer to what a teenager's aunt would be for most people, compared to the comics' ancient old biddy; though I'm sure MCU zombies who criticize, say, the FOX X-Men films for anything that's different from the comics won't say a peep about this; or Baron Zemo, etc.).

The twist with the five other Winter Soldiers (which initially seemed like it was going to be some version of the plot from Ed Brubaker's Winter Soldier series) was well-done, as was the emotional final fight.  It's weird how Iron Man's character really feels like he has developed more in the Avengers films and this movie (which basically is another Avengers movie) than in his own sequels.  I'd also easily call War Machine's final scene the character's most interesting moment in the franchise to date.

Most of Steve's "Secret Avengers" don't have solo properties going forward so the impact of this film will be negligible on them, but I do wonder what this means for the next Ant-Man film (incidentally, Scott fit very well into the group, though given that in the comics he's so closely connected to Tony Stark it still felt kind of weird to see him on Cap's team in the film).

[Actionmage]

This film made me react to everyone fighting everyone as if I'd never seen a movie before. Sucking in my breath, jumping in surprise and being worried that someone was going to be hurt or dead if everyone wasn't careful.  After seeing this last night, I will never pay to see what Zach Snyder did to the other sunniest, good superhero and his pal, the orphan who likes flying mammals. Never.  Not even to see Wonder Woman.

 

This was a great fun. It mixed the politics of Winter Soldier, the general fun of Iron Man and First Avenger, as well as leaving the doors to future  movies open and ready to welcome us when the time comes. It was a movie that moved and trusted you to know the basics, even as it threaded through stuff to catch some up on bits they may have not seen/ heard.  The absence  of Pepper surprised me; I was scared for a moment. I also hope that Alfre Woodard has another scene or two sitting somewhere. Yes, her scene is important for Tony's side of things, but it's Alfre!

Spider-Man and T'Challa were wonderfully introduced. I already enjoy Black Panther and Chadwick Boseman's embodiment was great. It was, as someone else has posted, a beautifully restrained performance where the fighting was the emotional outlet but not "wild".  I am so excited about the bits that were just 'nbd', put in for those in the know to flip over in their seats.  I will be impatiently waiting for T'Challa's movie some more. Tom Holland was endearing as Peter Parker. I just wanted to hug him! Tony's tied to him now, so I am interested in seeing where that goes in the movies. ( Probably not much more than a voice cameo or a random cameo, but I am intrigued.) Also, Spidey and Cap's back-and-forth was fun as well.

Paul Rudd is a gem and I am so glad he got to play on the big stage. The other Paul, Mr. Bettany, was great as The Vision.  Elizabeth Olsen impressed me in AoU, but I am a fan as of this movie.

Despite the central conflict, this show had hope and lightness to spare. There were reasons things happened and things happened off those incidents. Yet no one wanted to face off against "the other side".  An emotionally complex look at these characters' world and circumstances. The quoted "He killed my mom" was four words anyone could feel. As was "He's my friend." 

I... have too many and not enough words.

Edited May 6, 2016 by Actionmage
Apostrophes are good.

[jellysalmon]

Saw it last night. Looooved it. Other posters have gushed on why it's so amazing but I had two minor quibbles.

1. The volume was a bit low? This could have just been my theater but there were numerous times when I thought there would be a loud boom, but instead got a moderate one. Usually in action movies I think it's too loud, so this was a strange feeling. I sort of regret not seeing it IMAX.

2. I agree with @deaja that the action in the first 1/3 is hard to follow. Lots of up close shots. They did this in Winter Soldier a bit too. I'm wondering if it's a filming technique to give the illusion of super strength without the help of CGI.

But these are minor problems in a movie that got so many emotional responses out of me. Laughs! Awe! Sympathy! 

I agree that this feels like an Avengers movie more than a Captain America movie, but it really shows how he's the heart of the team. He has heartfelt conversations with: Wanda, Natasha, Tony, Sam, Bucky.

Also Ant-Man and Spider-Man's reactions to him show lots of respect.

But really everyone has their moment in the spotlight. It's crazy how many characters are in this movie and they all get something to do and all of their motivations make sense. Meanwhile BvS couldn't do that with 4 characters. 

Question: It's been awhile since I've seen Cap 1 & 2,

Spoiler

 

but did Steve really know that Bucky killed Tony's parents? When did he find out?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 6, 2016 by jellysalmon

[calliope1975]

44 minutes ago, Actionmage said:

I also hope that Alfre Woodard has another scene or two sitting somewhere. Yes, her scene is important for Tony's side of things, but it's Alfre!

Alfre Woodard is going to be in Luke Cage's series. The name of her character there and in Civil War is similar but not the same, and I wonder if it will end up being the same character. I would love if it was. 

Cap found out about Bucky killing Tony's parents in CA:WS when he was in the bunker with Natasha. Zola talked about it. It wasn't explicitly stated, but it was clear Bucky was responsible for their deaths. 

[SeanC]

16 minutes ago, jellysalmon said:

Question: It's been awhile since I've seen Cap 1 & 2,

  Hide contents

but did Steve really know that Bucky killed Tony's parents? When did he find out?

 

When he and Natasha visit Zola's bunker in TWS, Zola's little montage of HYDRA history includes the newspaper headline of Howard Stark's death, with Zola noting that people who got in their way were eliminated.  The implication that HYDRA assassinated Howard was clear.  It wasn't explicit that it was Bucky who did it, but that was a common fan speculation from that point.

[Athena]

As a reminder, the movie was widely released today in the USA, so no spoiler tags about the movie are necessary. Thanks!

[DkNNy79]

Thanks for the responses.  Its going to be a rainy weekend, so going to the movies sounds like a good idea, although maybe I should wait a week so the theaters aren't mobbed.

I'm team Iron Man.  I like Cap, but he is a little boring.  Not a fan of Bucky either.

[VCRTracking]

Just got back.

BEST. MARVEL. MOVIE. EVER.

[Jazzy24]

2 hours ago, DkNNy79 said:

Thanks for the responses.  Its going to be a rainy weekend, so going to the movies sounds like a good idea, although maybe I should wait a week so the theaters aren't mobbed.

I'm team Iron Man.  I like Cap, but he is a little boring.  Not a fan of Bucky either.

I thought that they've actually made Cap not boring. His movies are good IMO some of the best in the MCU. I don't care about Bucky tho and if he's the main reason Steve and Tony fight I may just outright hate him. 

[VCRTracking]

Sooooooooooooooooooooo many moments that were either awesome or funny or both, but my favorite right now HAS to be that little exchange between Cap and Peter.

"You've got heart kid. Where you from?"

"Queens."

(smiles)"Brooklyn"

Edited May 6, 2016 by VCRTracking

[ChelseaNH]

Thoroughly enjoyed it.  This wasn't just CGI spectacle, this was a movie about characters dealing with values and principles and choices and consequences.  With tons of action.  Lots happening but not too overstuffed, which was a worry going in.

Definitely going to see this again.

[Vikitty]

It was amazing. So fantastic. That first scene with 20 year old Tony Stark saying the words 45 year old Tony Stark wish he had said all those years ago -- my heart. Topping that off with the revalation towards the end that it was Bucky who killed them; my heart broke right along with Tony's.

Some hilarious one-liners. "So, you into cats?" "Can you move your seat up?" I loved it.

I went in heavily-spoiled and still really enjoyed it. (Except for the whole Pepperony breaking up thing. Eff that.)

[VCRTracking]

I'm glad though it was one of the reasons that made Tony finally realize he fucked up too many times and to take responsibility.

I finally understood why someone online said the villain's plan reminded them of Se7en.

The final fight between Cap and Tony was great because you could see both sides.  I do not blame Tony for being enraged all for wanting Bucky dead and I don't blame Steve for defending him.

Edited May 7, 2016 by VCRTracking

[SeanC]

The stuff about superhero registration almost feels like a red herring, since the final conflict is not about that -- which is good in a way, since Steve's position on registration is complete nonsense on any logical level.  Tony's position is so undeniable that the source comic had to make everybody supporting registration act like a fascist to make the anti-registration side look good.

[Raja]

5 minutes ago, SeanC said:

The stuff about superhero registration almost feels like a red herring, since the final conflict is not about that -- which is good in a way, since Steve's position on registration is complete nonsense on any logical level.  Tony's position is so undeniable that the source comic had to make everybody supporting registration act like a fascist to make the anti-registration side look good.

I agree I was Team Stark all the way by what was on the screen until he gave into the dark side and went for revenge just a Zemo was and T'Challa had pulled away from 

[Bruinsfan]

I think in theory the Sokovia Accords are right and necessary, but it's the implementation that is the problem and gives Steve pause. In the MCU we've had the Vice President of the US and the leader of the World Security Council turn out to be secretly backing coups by terrorist organizations, and the person on the ground who appears to be calling the shots now is a former über-authoritarian US Army general who was obsessed with bringing one of the Avengers to heel no matter how much collateral damage it caused (when just letting Banner wander off into the desert or stay peacefully in Brazil in would have spared billions in property damage and who knows how many casualties in Manhattan). The fact that he immediately had Wanda under house arrest for preventing a bomb from killing hundreds at the cost of a handful of lives and bundled all Steve's allies off to floating Gitmo without due process shows the flaws in the setup quite clearly. (Tell me, why exactly is the frickin' Secretary of State hanging around in a secret super-prison watching CCTV in people's cells all day long rather than, you know, running the State Department?)

[VCRTracking]

Agreed. Something like the Accords would be necessary IRL but I think Ross with his bias towards any super powered people or vigilantes were already too restrictive and Tony was too consumed with guilt to see it for most of the movie to see it. It isn't after they find out Barnes didn't cause the explosion in Vienna and Ross still wouldn't let them pursue the real culprit was when Tony realized he was wrong.

From writer Peter David's blog:

Quote

And oh my God, was Spider-Man great. Todd Holland evokes Tobey Maguire at his most vulnerable, and screw what the traditionalists say, I thought Marisa Tomei was fine as Aunt May. Hell, it never really made any sense that the original May was as ancient as she was in the first place; Peter was a teenager. How many teens have senior citizens for aunts and uncles anyway?

Yeah the way Aunt May was drawn by Steve Ditko and then John Romita made it look like she was pushing 80 meaning her and Uncle Ben had to have been at least 30 years older than Peter's parents.

Edited May 7, 2016 by VCRTracking

[thuganomics85]

Saw it Thursday evening, but wanted to wait a day to fully process it and for my opinions then.  Overall, I will probably have The Winter Solider solider as my favorite Marvel film ever, but this might be right behind it.  I'll probably put it over the first Avengers, but I'm not sure if it will beat out Guardians of the Galaxy (certainly better then Age of Ultron.)

Interestingly, I actually thought it still felt like a Captain America film, despite the presence of Tony/Iron Man.  Tony still played a major role and had plenty of screen time, but I still felt like this was Steve's story, and Tony was simply a big part of it.  And I mean that as a compliment since I continue to surprisingly love Steve.  On paper, he really could be a boring character, but somehow, the writing and Chris Evans have made him one of my favorite characters in both the Marvel Universe and comic book films in general.  He continues to bring it and hold his own against the "flashier" characters.  Still, I won't take anything away from Robert Downey Jr.  I can understand the criticism of him being lazy in some of the other films, but I thought he gave it his all on this one.  He really sold Tony's guilt and then rage at the end.  Both Chris and Robert really work well together, and it made them turning on one another even harder to watch.

I was also surprised over how much I bought them at odds, and actually saw both sides.  I'm still not fully sure either one of them was completely right, but I think I slightly sided with Tony on having some kind of oversight (although keeping Wanda in containment was an understandable deal breaker.  And I do think Ross would have done something shady in the future.  I don't know, really..), and sided with Steve on protecting Bucky, since Bucky clearly had been brainwashed.  But I could totally understand Tony's rage and I do think Steve majorly goofed by trying to hide it.  D'oh!

I thought they were two for two on the new characters.  T'Challa/Black Panther was a great addition to the cast, and Chadwick Boseman was spot-on in the role.  The character's fighting style was also pretty unique and badass.  But I also liked how the character carried himself in a dignified way in some aspects, and how he played off the other characters; especially Natasha.

As for Peter, he was only one screen for a few minutes, but I honestly think he could end up being my favorite Spiderman.  I enjoyed the past versions enough, but I feel like Tom Holland had the right balance of geekiness, but also wit and sarcasm, and seemed more fun compared to the more sad-sack Peters from the past ones.  I'm really curious to see his stand-alone film, especially if Tony is involved, because those two were cracking me up together.  And, of course, Marisa Tomei as the hottest Aunt May ever.

I thought they actually managed to give everyone a moment to shine, which is impressive considering the size of the cast.  Scott/Ant-Man brought some good humor, really enjoyed Sam and the rivalry between him and Bucky, Clint was used well, same with Rhodes, Natasha continues to be great with her big scenes with both Tony and Steve, and I even got a kick out of whatever was going on between Wanda and Vision.

From a pure entertainment standpoint, the big blowout between the entire gang might be one of my favorite action scenes ever.  I just loved how everyone had a big moment or two, and how everyone seem to be in the offensive one moment and defensive the next.  And get some great humor in it; mainly from Peter and Scott.  And Giant Man!  That was awesome!

That said, Steve vs. Tony certainly wins in the emotional department. I felt every punch, and even when Steve got Tony down, it really felt like a bittersweet, almost hollow victory, and nothing to celebrate about.  The Avengers will never be the same after this.  I truly believe it.

Knowing that Marvel always tends to have a villain problem (outside of Loki and the Netflix ones), I wasn't surprised that Zemo ended up being less interesting then the rest, but Daniel Bruhl still made the most of it, and I did kind of like how the film almost seemed to be in on him not being a big baddie, but just something to move the plot forward, and he wasn't a bad guy built on world domination, but someone who just wanted to see the Avengers destroyed for what he believed they did to him.  Not the highest praise for the character, but better then I expected, I guess.

I feel like an idiot that I didn't see the twist of Bucky killing Tony's parents coming.  I should have, but I really assumed it was going to be Zemo's family that Bucky had killed in those flashbacks.  Well done, film.

Glad we got more of Sharon Carter in this one.  I think I will like her, now that I just accept that one one can replace Peggy, but she doesn't need to.

Martin Freeman's character seemed a bit out of place for well-known actor.  Is he being set-up for future films?

Fucking Ross, man.  He's freaking Secretary of State, now!  He could be a fun antagonist going forward.

Between this and the Winter Solider, I definitely think the Russo Brothers know what they are doing.  With respect to Joss Whedon or even Jon Favreau, who helped kick things off with Iron Man (remember back when most probably only associated "Iron Man" with that Black Sabbith song, and yet they were going to make a film based on this unknown to mainstream character, starring an actor who had a troubled past?  Good times!), I'm glad they seem to be handed the reigns for now.

[Kanner]

Wow! So awesome. Went in team Cap come out team Cap. I was worried that this wouldn't be a Captain America movie but it was his movie. It was his fight and his heart that drove the story. I find his journey through the years to be most compelling. It's tough being the "straight man" but Chris Evans and the writers have made him not boring.

It's funny that I think this is the most I've liked Tony outside of his own movies. The motivations behind who signed and who didn't worked really well. Even though I was behind Cap, I understood fully why Tony would want this. I understood his need at the end too. I just didn't want him to win.

Every character was used smartly and appropriately. The newcomers shined so bright too. Black Panther and Spider-Man are great additions. The MCU has always had humor but the fun Spider-Man and Ant-Man brought to it worked so well.

I also liked that the story realized that it didn't need a great villain. This wasn't a story about a hero or a team defeating a great evil. It was a story about a family tearing itself apart. An overpowering villain would have detracted from that.

I am also ok with a non ending. We all know there are more movies to come so this didn't need to be tied in a bow. I'm just glad it ended on a ray of hope.

[Advance35]

I really liked Zemo as a villain and I'm glad that he was left alive.   He managed to take the Avengers apart with his brain instead of with Brawn.   The Marvel Movie Universe only has Loki and in a general sense HYDRA as worth recurring villains, so them expanding their portfolio in that regard is all to the good.

I felt it was still very much Steve's movie and I think it's clear Steve still struggles with everything that's happened to him and everything it cost him.  I think the death of Peggy Carter hit him hard.   Bucky was/is all he had left from that time period so I can believe that served as an extra push for Steve to do whatever he had to.   His friendship and brother in arms rapport with Sam is still strong and I was so glad Steve came back for him and the others in the end.

I REALLY liked Black Panther.  I thought the actor was amazing in the role and made the character someone I would be very interested in following to other films.   I really liked the rapport he seemed to form with Natasha.   I'd be interested in seeing if their friendship can survive her being at her most Black Widow.   I'd assume not since Tony said T'challa turned her in and that Ross is coming for her.

Really loved Natasha's role in this movie.   Her fight with Rumlow and his forces was awesome.  Nobody kicks ass quite like Black Widow.  Her relationship with Steve was perfect.  Her showing up for Peggy's funeral just to make sure Steve wasn't alone was touching.   And I was surprised she let he and Bucky go at the end of the airport fight.   Loved that her relationship with Clint was touched on and that he couldn't bring himself to NOT pull his punches with her.   So I assume she's on her own out there.  On the run.   Most people wound up with one side or another.   The fugitives with Steve all have each other, those pro-accord are with Tony and Natasha's the only one that wound up alone.  Fitting.  I wonder when we will see the character again.

I am SUPER curious about where all these characters will go from here.

[dkb]

Just saw it again, and I love it even more the second time. To me it was a perfect movie; great drama, action, heart and humor, all perfectly balanced. 

Will go see it again atleast once. This is one of the pros have having different circles of friends and family, I can see the movie with everyone of them. 

 

Excited for the next films in the MCU + Spider-man. 

Edited May 7, 2016 by dkb

[SeanC]

8 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

I think in theory the Sokovia Accords are right and necessary, but it's the implementation that is the problem and gives Steve pause.

Steve never objects to the implementation, though.  His criticisms are purely theoretical, that he doesn't like the concept of somebody having control over the Avengers.

Quote

and bundled all Steve's allies off to floating Gitmo without due process shows the flaws in the setup quite clearly.

There's no indication that they were being denied due process, that I recall.  They all broke the law quite clearly, and are in custody.

Edited May 7, 2016 by SeanC

[Actionmage]

Quote

 

There's no indication that they were being denied due process, that I recall.

(The following is a response to the above, not an attack on SeanC.)

So they got to talk to an attorney and they have an arraignment set? Funny how we didn't see that or get a throwaway line about it.

(Cap's allies in shackles, in court- Attorney, maybe even Foggy Nelson, at the table) Your Honor, [legalese asking for release on recognizance]. Judge: Denied. (Sound of gavel; cut to Foggy in The Liferaft, in the circular cells room) I tried to work some magic ( Wanda quirks an eyebrow), figuratively , but I only have a week to put your case together. Fortunately, I've got experience doing just that.

Alternatively, Ross could have crowed about how not even some liberal attorney could keep this crew from being incarcerated to Tony during the walk -and-talk.

Instead, the gang goes from the airport fight to The Liferaft. Ross is in charge and we know how he feels about "heightened" persons, just ask his daughter Betty.  I pooh-pooh Ross' new-found "perspective". I think he just finally understood about asking please and thank you. Instead of allowing a potentially safer arrest in 72 hours, Ross demanded 36.  Meanwhile, normal law enforcement are caught in the crossfire of Doing Their Damn Job  or getting hurt apprehending these folks, who like Cap, can't just walk away from a crime going down. Only they can't just keep doing it all day like Cap. The regular cops and soldiers who are backing the demands of the law are simply not thought about. Cap and Bucky's escape down the stairwell illustrates this perfectly.

Another thing that showed a weakness in the System the Avengers were supposed to trust was the rush to condemn Bucky.  In a world that has seen intergalactic battle over NYC, the return of an actual WWII hero, mutants, a spider-guy, a couple of potential Norse gods and a Hulk, the possibility of someone framing Bucky never seemed to enter anyone in charge's mind. No one was interested in listening to Bucky. Zemo found the perfect patsy and worked from there.  The system the "heightened" crew was supposed to trust allowed a murderer to activate a superweapon in the person of Bucky. Everyone was so busy trying to protect the world from one person that another dangerous individual, a non-heightened one by the way, was able to walk in and walk away with barely any problem. While being videotaped in a room wired for sound.

Explosions and collateral damage- a phrase used in this film- were happening pretty much not where Bucky was should have had more folks wondering how firm the case actually was. I am also presuming TV Mission: Impossible was a thing in the Marvelverse, which could be wrong. So the idea of a frame never occurs to anyone until about halfway or later, and never among the civilians or at least folks like Agent 13. Because spycraft isn't a thing?

The above doesn't take anything away from my enjoyment or affection for the movie or the characters. It was just a juggernaut of a story and I believe the things I pointed out were supposed to equate to the 36 hour time crunch and the need to keep folks from getting/being hurt. After the final fight, things feel more slow, relaxed. I found myself taking a couple of deep breaths. The Russos were showing us how things can cascade into, well, tragedy, as per Vision. 

[Kanner]

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

Steve never objects to the implementation, though.  His criticisms are purely theoretical, that he doesn't like the concept of somebody having control over the Avengers.

 

Steve referring to politics and everyone having their own agenda was him objecting to the implementation. So they weren't only theoretical. He brought up what would happen if they were sent to a fight they didn't agree with or told not to help in one they wanted to. That is all the implementation side.

[SeanC]

6 minutes ago, Kanner said:

Steve referring to politics and everyone having their own agenda was him objecting to the implementation. So they weren't only theoretical. He brought up what would happen if they were sent to a fight they didn't agree with or told not to help in one they wanted to. That is all the implementation side.

No, that's all theoretical, because by definition any oversight body has an agenda.  An oversight body that lets the Avengers do whatever they want might as well not exist at all.

The bottom line is that Steve wants to act like a global policeman, and just like the actual police, that requires being subordinate to democratic authority.

[shortpplfedup]

Quote

So I assume she's on her own out there.  On the run.   Most people wound up with one side or another.   The fugitives with Steve all have each other, those pro-accord are with Tony and Natasha's the only one that wound up alone.  Fitting.  I wonder when we will see the character again.

This would be the perfect setup for a Black Widow movie.

[fireice13]

I am team Cap in this situation, although I think the idea of regulation would be necessary. However, they had a regulatory body, SHIELD, that was corrupted by HYDRA so I can see why Steve wouldn't support something else. He was going to change his mind and sign after they were caught in Romania until Tony mentioned Wanda being under house arrest. I think that's what solidified his mind against the accords and that they wouldn't be implemented justly or correctly. 

I did love Black Panther and that he completely changed his mind about Bucky after getting all the information. That's the kind of person you want to have in charge. I'm wondering now if Bucky will be in the standalone Black Panther movie. 

I liked Spider-Man and I do think Tom Holland did a really good job, but I also felt his presence wasn't necessary to the storyline. 

I felt like once the movie started going there wasn't really any spot to just take a breath, it was go go go until the very end. I want to see it again just to pick up on whatever I know I missed the first time. This movie, and Winter Soldier, make me very happy that Markus and McFeeley are writing Infinity Wars and the Russos are directing. 

[Kromm]

16 minutes ago, fireice13 said:

I am team Cap in this situation, although I think the idea of regulation would be necessary. However, they had a regulatory body, SHIELD, that was corrupted by HYDRA so I can see why Steve wouldn't support something else.

SHIELD wasn't a regulatory agency (in either the MCU or the original comics). They're literally supposed to be spies. An intelligence and covert action agency (although post-registration in the comic version they wouldn't have been as covert anymore, but more paramilitary). 

That doesn't mean the corruption of SHIELD isn't a factor in the mindset of considering this. In the comics, where SHIELD isn't even overturned the same way, SHIELD is still a factor, because the heroes don't trust that their information will be secure with SHIELD (who in the post-registration of that version would if not be a regulatory agency, would in fact be in tactical command of the heroes, and thus have all of their information). 

In the movie version, I think the worry is just more generic. Less about SHIELD per se and more that clearly people at the top are always corruptible (or even people lower down who maintain things). I mean in the MCU the Secretary of Defense was the head of the rot. That's certainly a situation designed to create mistrust of authority. And that's even before we get into the issue of the protection of secret identities and family possibly affected by that being blown--something that's odd because in this movie it really only affects the newcomer (Spider-Man) who doesn't even get a chance to address the issue. 

30 minutes ago, fireice13 said:

I liked Spider-Man and I do think Tom Holland did a really good job, but I also felt his presence wasn't necessary to the storyline. 

I think aside from the issues of fan demand, and getting his image as part of the MCU in early (to help pre-market his movie), the other justification for him (the less mercenary money-making one, as well as less fan-service-y) was that they felt the movie badly needed some comic relief.

[Kanner]

44 minutes ago, fireice13 said:

I am team Cap in this situation, although I think the idea of regulation would be necessary. He was going to change his mind and sign after they were caught in Romania until Tony mentioned Wanda being under house arrest. I think that's what solidified his mind against the accords and that they wouldn't be implemented justly or correctly. 

Great point. His worries were about implementation and right when he waivers, the truth of the reality of the accords gets thrown in his face.

[Crs97]

I saw it last night.  I am a vocal, unabashed Tony fan.  I know this is supposed to be a Captain America film, but if every Avengers-esque movie Tony is in becomes "Tony is wrong and everyone yells at him until he apologizes," then I think I am done.  I still don't know why Natalie yelled at Tony for being arrogant when he just heard about Rhodey's paralysis.  They all get mad when Tony (and Bruce - but somehow he is excused) don't trust them with the Ultron project, but Steve decides not to trust Tony about the extra winter soldiers and the fake psychiatrist and - oh, yeah - the death of his parents and somehow Tony is the bad guy in those decisions, too.  I expected during the final fight to be hearing Captain trying to reason with Tony or beg him to stop or saying he doesn't want to hurt Tony as they fight, but no Steve looks, of all things, angry as he is beating up Tony.  Tony just watched his parents not die in a car wreck, but actually be murdered in close range bare-handed, but Tony is the bad guy again.  I thought the fed-exec apology was a cop out, and frankly I am also pissed they decided to explain Pepper's absence as they broke up.  The worst moments in Tony's life and she isn't there for him?  Almost no one is?  Just no.

[lion10]

This movie was so good it's actually amazing.  The fight at the airport was great though I wish they had cut down on the quipping just a bit to give the battles more seriousness.  The best scene of the movie was between Bucky and Steve at the Siberian fortress.  They're reminiscing about when they were kids and Bucky was trying to impress some redhead girl named "Dot" (Dottie Underwood?) and Bucky says "She's probably almost 100 years old by now" and Steve replies "So are we pal" and claps him on the shoulder. The easy and deep friendship between the two men is so evident in that scene it made me smile. Steve doesn't talk about it much but he feels so isolated because the world and culture he knew is gone forever so it makes so much sense that he's putting everything on the line for Bucky, who's both his friend and his last tie to his home.

 

It was interesting to see the villain have such a small and personal motivation for why he orchestrated the bombing.

 

I really liked how Wanda was used during this movie, how she's coming into her own with this power and how she (and Antman) was the MVP of the airport fight.  I also liked her burgeoning relationship with the Vision and her nickname for her of "Vis".  I felt really bad for her when Tony referred to her as a "weapon of mass destruction" and when she's imprisoned she's put in a straitjacket with some sort of electronic collar and she's drugged out of her mind to stop her from using her powers.  That was pretty messed up and competed with Bucky's flashbacks for most disturbing imagery of the movie.  

[nksarmi]

18 hours ago, SeanC said:

The stuff about superhero registration almost feels like a red herring, since the final conflict is not about that -- which is good in a way, since Steve's position on registration is complete nonsense on any logical level.  Tony's position is so undeniable that the source comic had to make everybody supporting registration act like a fascist to make the anti-registration side look good.

But it's not illogical for Steve who had to take down SHIELD because it had been infested with HYDRA. Steve doesn't trust oversight or bureaucracy or authority anymore.

Which is kind of a delightful turn of events. Mr. military and order doesn't trust his government and Mr. I am Iron Man who would thumbed his nose at being controlled by the military becomes the voice of "we need to be restrained."

But in reality, Stark is the one who needs to be restrained. Tony is the one who wanted to play with forces he didn't understand to create Ultron. And in that way Steve is right - he is kind of passing the buck. It's almost like if they have the UN deciding where they go and who they fight - they don't have to be responsible for the outcomes anymore.

What is missing here is that Tony and the Avengers were always going to be hated for their failures and loved for their successes. Rather they act as a unit, per UN sanction, or in secret - no one is going to let them off the hook if they fail at something. So in that way, it makes sense that Steve doesn't want to hand over his ability to choose to an organization that he doesn't know if he can trust. The fact that Tony is willing to seems more out of character than Steve's choice, but I suspect that when push comes to shove - Tony will just do what he wants no matter what agreement he signed. Steve is just too straightforward to lie like that.

[DkNNy79]

Is 3D worth it?

I actually had the Age of Ultron dvd, but forgot about it.  So I've watched that and am now up to speed.

[AimingforYoko]

On 5/6/2016 at 0:10 PM, jellysalmon said:

 

  Hide contents

 

but did Steve really know that Bucky killed Tony's parents? When did he find out?

 

 

 

 

When Steve and Natasha found digital Arnim Zola in The Winter Soldier, there was a headline about Tony's parents, it wasn't said, but the implication that all the headlines that Zola showed them could be attributed to Bucky.
 

[dkb]

39 minutes ago, DkNNy79 said:

Is 3D worth it?

I actually had the Age of Ultron dvd, but forgot about it.  So I've watched that and am now up to speed.

I watched in IMAX 3D, and I didn't think the 3D was worth it personally. The first time I watched it regularly and I think it was better.

[VCRTracking]

Another small thing that amused me was Tony's AI F.R.I.D.A.Y. saying in her Irish accent: "Targeting system's knackered, boss."

Edited May 7, 2016 by VCRTracking

[AimingforYoko]

Oh yeah, one other thing: What in the hell was Howard thinking transporting Super Soldier Serum 2.0 in his trunk? With his wife in the car? You know that has to be on Tony's mind.

[Rick Kitchen]

I loved Zemo.  That he was an ordinary guy with a personal backstory makes him a villain worth appreciating.

And Spidey killed me.  Can't wait for his movie.  Tom Holland was great.  He sure doesn't look 19.

I am so totally Team Cap here.  We all know how corrupt the UN is.  What if they order the Avengers to put down a democratically elected country?  What if the Third World, led by Iran, orders them to take down the US government?  Sure it's theoretical, but so are the fears of the people pushing the Accords  Speaking of which, what could that huge document possibly contain?  And how many of them actually read it before signing?

T'Challa was a refreshing addition, can't wait for his movie, too.

[MisterGlass]

I saw it this morning, and I'm of two minds.

I disappointed that we didn't get a tight espionage thriller follow up to The Winter Soldier, with a focus on Steve, Natasha, Sam, Sharon, and Bucky.  The idea that they were going to pursue Bucky and bring him in that was set up at the end of that was given lip service in Age of Ultron, and dismissed as a 'we tried' here.  I wanted to see some character development for Sam and Bucky, and I think Agent Peggy Carter deserved more than 2 minutes of mourning.  This did not feel like Captain America's movie to me.  I felt like it was about 25% his movie.  While I appreciate Spiderman, I thought he was overly quippy in the fight.  And Tony actively recruiting a 16 year old?  That's horrible judgement.

That said, as Avengers 2.5 this was a really, really good follow up to Ultron.  It was wonderful that they didn't drop the impact of the last movie, and really embraced the idea that regulations would be necessary, and that there would be lasting damage to real people.  The reveal with Bucky as the killer of Tony's parents made sense and was so brutal.  Tony's reaction was genuine.  I really thought that Tony or Steve was going to die in that final confrontation.  When Steve was holding the shield over Tony I held my breath.  Wow.  The introduction of Black Panther went really well.  Good casting and good acting.  And applause for Don Cheadle at the end.

It's a little thing, but I like that Sam and Bucky can't stand each other.  The "Can you move your seat up?/You couldn't have done that five minutes ago?" exchanges were fun.

[Kanner]

Just saw it again and still loved it. I failed to mention above that Natasha was extraordinary in this movie. I have found the evolution of the Cap/Black Widow relationship in all of these movies to be a high point. They work well off each other.

I think I was a little more angry with Tony about the end fight this time. And his words to Cap about the  shield. I know it was an emotional moment and I don't blame him at the start of the fight but as it went on it was clear that you had two guys just trying to get away and one guy set on destruction and murder. I am glad they added the Rhodey scene at the end because that definitely reminded me of why I like Tony.

Steve's letter at the end was perfect. Steve has always had strong convictions but has been able to own up to his wrong doings (hiding the truth about Tony's parents). He also let Tony know just because he didn't agree with Tony and the Accords he was ok with Tony following his own beliefs. And of course, he will have Tony's back if it is needed. For Steve, they are still friends. 

What a great movie!

[Spartan Girl]

Well, that hurt like hell. I'm glad there was hope at the end, but it still hurt like hell. Fuck you, Zemo. Your poor dead family would be ashamed of you.

And fuck you too, Ross. Your whole "perspective" lecture was pure bullshit. If you really gave a damn about collateral damage, you would have owned up to the thousands of people that would still be alive in Harlem if it weren't for you and Abomination. I hope Hulk's next "puny god" moment is stomping your slimy ass.

I was Team Cap, but my heart ached for Tony, for reasons that were already mentioned. At least he realized he had been wrong, though I can't blame him for hating Bucky. Honestly, Bucky going back to cryo was probably the best possible outcome for everyone.

I actually loved the new Spidey...possibly enough to see the new movie.

Black Panther was HOT.

The airport battle made me LOL and gasp at the same time.

Steve's face when he found out who Sharon was--priceless. The whole funeral sequence other than that was heartbreaking.

I know that I'm in the minority with this one, but I didn't think Steve/Sharon was forced and creepy at all. There was chemistry there. Steve was attracted to Sharon before he knew who she was. And seeing as how Peggy had become more like family and not just The One That Got Away, I don't think it was a betrayal at all. Since they were never really intimate other than that one kiss in the first movie...

Plus, consider this: kissing Sharon was the first time STEVE initiated things. He didn't do that with Peggy or Nat in the other movies. I'd like to think he's done being slow to act. If he likes her, he should go for it. I loved Sharon's "Damn right" reply to Steve calling it "late". And Sam and Bucky's smiles were everything.

Now that they're both fugitives, I hope their paths cross in the next movie....because we need a shirtless Steve BADLY. Don't get me wrong, I loved the gratuitous biceps scene, but I want pecs dammit!

In short, THIS is how a superhero throw down is done. Take a note, Snyder!

Edited May 8, 2016 by Spartan Girl