S02.E04: Down Will Come

[ChipBach]

I have to take back my criticism of the shootout, on rewatch it was actually more believable than I remembered.  I guess I was having Penny Dreadful withdrawals...

 

I will say that if Stan were still alive, the shootout would have gone a whole other way.

[blixie]

 

Most of Matthew Mconaughey's most absurdist dialogue occurred in the police interrogation room.  In that setting, they were basically monologues.

 

Yeah I think I read a comment at the AV club that pointed out that NP's noirish pulpy dialogue is typically of the type that is done by the lead in "voice over" and that a lot of VV's stuff would work better if he were the narrator of the story. Plus it can't be understated how much it helped that Rust was a drunk and a drug user on top of being brilliant/pompous, there was a certain establishment of him as an absurd character whom Marty viewed quite obviously AS absurd. 

 

There is really no audience stand in character this season, Antigone? Kind of but not really.

Edited July 14, 2015 by blixie

[Ottis]

One thread that I am wondering if it was part of something greater or not was that one missing girl that brought Ani to her dad's new age establishment back in episode 1 but then seemed to be dropped. I think her father must be involved somehow. Way too many players making their way through his place + a missing girl for there not to be.

 

 

That missing girl, and the poor, overweight redhead kid of Colin Ferrell's, are the only two people I care about at all on this show so far.

 

Maybe Stan is driving one of the cars on the highways we keep seeing in the transition shots. His choice of freeway is the key to everything.

[Alapaki]

There is really no audience stand in character this season, Antigone? Kind of but not really.

 

 

It was Stan.  They fucking killed us.

 

Frankly, seeing how they try to tie all of these threads together is the only thing keeping my watching.  I guess I could play Mad Libs and take a shot:

 

The commune identifies broken young women to feed to pimps, and more recently to the creepy bird-head guy with the cam-girl house.  At some point, Ani's Dad, Rick Springfield and the Mayor's Dad bought some of that now-toxic farm land (as a way to lure young migrant girls for the same purpose).  They had a falling over Rick Springfield screwing up the Mayor's wife, and possibly Ani's mother.  Chessani was playing all of them, along with Vince Vaughn, against each other in land deals for the farm land, and each one thought that through Chessani they were getting back at one or both of the others.

 

Oh, and Ani has a thing for sticking her finger up guys' asses.  

[Constantinople]

this show has really bad dialogue and vaughn is not good.  CF and RM are trying their best but this is just bad stuff.

 

at this pace, we're going to bump down to C-level actors...true detective season 3 starring...david caruso.

 

So long as we get the Sunglasses of Justice, it's all good.

[Bannon]

this show has really bad dialogue and vaughn is not good.  CF and RM are trying their best but this is just bad stuff.

 

at this pace, we're going to bump down to C-level actors...true detective season 3 starring michael paul gosselaar and david caruso.

I promise to watch next year if they hire Andy Samberg to do a turn as Nic Cage.

[sjankis630]

OK I have finally had  a chance to rewatch part of this last episode again.

Am I crazy or has anyone mentioned yet the sculpted figurines which we saw twice.

One was seen when Ani was talking to her sister about her mother (who carved them) and Ani put one back on the shelf. The second was when VV went to shakedown the guy at the apartment complex. VV took a similar figurine off of the guys' shelf and - I thought - put it in his jacket pocket.

It occurred right before he told the guy to have the grass cut so none of the kids got bitten by snakes.

[teddysmom]

having Penny Dreadful withdrawals...

 

Me too!!!   

I don't know if this is a good thing, as far as either my ability to understand the plot, or the writer and director's ability to get it across to me, but I always get more out of this show on a second viewing.  I think I need to stop watching it when it airs at 9 pm, I'm drowsy and should just go to sleep. 

 

The commune identifies broken young women to feed to pimps, and more recently to the creepy bird-head guy with the cam-girl house.  At some point, Ani's Dad, Rick Springfield and the Mayor's Dad bought some of that now-toxic farm land (as a way to lure young migrant girls for the same purpose).  They had a falling over Rick Springfield screwing up the Mayor's wife, and possibly Ani's mother.  Chessani was playing all of them, along with Vince Vaughn, against each other in land deals for the farm land, and each one thought that through Chessani they were getting back at one or both of the others.

 

I like it.  I still think the Mayor had Caspere killed when he found out Caspere had also screwed him on the land deals. Mayor just found out before Frank did.  Or something like that.  Maybe Caspere was buying all the land for the Mayor, but then held some parcels back for himself. 

 

I do hope Frank's property management firm does a better job running that apartment complex.  

Edited July 14, 2015 by teddysmom

[Crim]

There is really no audience stand in character this season, Antigone? Kind of but not really.

That got ruined for me in this very episode, and I'll quote this gem: "Those moments, they stare back at you. You don't remember them, they remember you. Turn around, there they are." This would have fit in any monologue from Rust or one of the Yellow King crew, except it would have been less jarring then. Also, it sounds like something Ani's father might say, which is an excellent reason for her not to say it. If the NP wanted this said so, so badly (I can't imagine why; it's awful and sounds really cliched, a mix of Nietzsche and the Gospel of Thomas), he should have had Frank say it.

[Alapaki]

If the NP wanted this said so, so badly (I can't imagine why; it's awful and sounds really cliched, a mix of Nietzsche and the Gospel of Thomas), he should have had Frank say it.

 

 

When you put it that way, it really does sound like a drunken dorm-room realization that you think is profound at 3 AM after beer bongs, that gets scribbled down on a napkin.  Most people get past that phase when they graduate.  NP either never did, or is still there.

[RococoChanel]

Jeez. Season two is such a let-down compared to season 1. I am barely hanging on by a thread at this point.

 

The dialogue, especially for Vince Vaughn and his wife, is just abysmal. It seems like there are two writing teams working on them and Colin Farrell and Rachel McAdams separately. It doesn't even seem like the same show.

 

I, too, found myself having a hard time staying awake. 

[Hobo.PassingThru]

That's a big part of the problem, isn't it? Beyond Ray's meetings with Frank and both characters bringing up information gleened from the other in conversations with characters in their respective worlds, it seems like two stories that are worlds apart.

 

To make matters worse, the Paul character seemed off on a tangent for some time. Somehow, to my perception, there is more cohesion between Ray and Ani and their personal lives than the other characters have. Part of that is because those two are going places together that advances the story (and complicates it, too). But, somehow Paul is a brief third wheel, the shootout, or subbing for Ray or Ani when they are together. It's all too spread out.

 

And then there are those big, important meetings where you have some or a lot of characters and we have no idea how the principle characters in the scene fit into that. Like the squad room session before the shootout: there were two Vinci cop principles but they spent too little time explaining who was there and who wasn't. Somehow the three main detectives were in charge of who? The Vinci police force? The one that is partially being investigated by 2 of the 3 detectives?

There isn't enough to bind it together. This sandwich is missing something!

Edited July 14, 2015 by Hobo.PassingThru

[LilaFowler]

The audience stand-in character could be Colin Farrell.  I did laugh when Ani's father said that he must have had hundreds of lives, and Colin quipped that he couldn't handle another one.  Perhaps Colin isn't as secure or brazen of an actor as Woody H. and so he doesn't feel comfortable ad libbing, but he could and should. 

Edited July 14, 2015 by LilaFowler

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

When you put it that way, it really does sound like a drunken dorm-room realization that you think is profound at 3 AM after beer bongs, that gets scribbled down on a napkin. Most people get past that phase when they graduate. NP either never did, or is still there.

Well, Pizzolatto spent a lot of years in academia & working with undergrads.....

Edited July 14, 2015 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[TexasGal]

I honestly thought the gun fight was poorly done.  The protester were milling around after the gun firing van crashed into the bus was pretty unrealistic.  Add to that the cops firing into the empty window, and them just sauntering up to the building.  Plus the gang didn't ever seem to run out of bullets despite never reloading.  It seemed to me to be poorly written and poorly directed.  

When the gunfight came to the protesters, and even after all the cops were yelling at them to get down - there were still protesters standing up, not really trying to get out of the way and getting shot I sorta WTF'd at my tv.  When they showed the shot of the bus driver getting shot I laughed and had to rewind.  I couldn't tell for sure if he was already meant to be dead and just got hit again, but I think no because he made this body motion like he was turning and then got shot.  Because I know for sure, if I had driven into that cluster I would certainly remain seated in my propped up chair behind the wheel.  So.Bad.

 

P. S.  Who the fuck casts VV and doesn't give his character even a scintilla of humor?  A little black humor, especially leading up to/during the violence, would make him much more menacing.

I'll give you another amen for that.  The scenes with him and his wife, it feels like they are both walking through syrup and talking with it in their mouths.  They are both so emotionless while delivering those clunky lines.  Ugh.  So.Bad.

[Cardie]

In S1 there was this corrupt ruling class that profited off the private school network and had their way with the students. They created the monster of Carcosa and covered up his serial killings because exposing him would expose their corruption. The same thing is probably happening here. The corrupt financial deals of the Vinci government are entwined with sex parties and young women recruited at the retreat of Ani's dad. But out of this unsavory stew someone much sicker was bred and he (or she) I believe is the one who killed Caspere and Stan (RIP). This person, the Bird-face, has a more personal stake in all this; Bird-face doesn't cover up. He or she sends calling cards, like putting Caspere's body on display and letting Ray live. The only reason the Mayor wants the Caspere case closed is because Caspere was the nexus for all he shady financial transactions. The Mayor either recruited or set up the Mexicans in order to have a patsy to blame. I really don't think he or any of the Vinci machine killed Caspere or employ Bird-face.

 

Well, Pizzolato spent a lot of years in academia & working with undergrads.....

 

Someone on Twitter said that this season of True Detective was an argument for never giving anyone an MFA in creative writing ever again.

Edited July 14, 2015 by Cardie

[MarkySnark]

Every time Colin Farrell's kid is on the screen, I keep waiting for him to ask Collin, "Do you want me to make you some sandwiches?" like the kid in Bad Santa.

[TudorQueen]

Cardie, I hope the resolution of this season is as good as what you've outlined.

[NurseGiGi]

I think the real star of the show has been Stan.  They should have done a Weekend at Bernie's sort of thing with him.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

There sure are a lot of redheads in this show considering that redheads make up only 1-2% of the world's population (and somewhere between 2-6% of Americans). http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/08/redheads-are-more-common-in-commercials-than-in-real-life/375868/

Thereare four redheads on the show I can think of off the top of my head - Jordan (assuming she's a natural redhead), Ivar the Russian, Ray's son Chad, and Frank's henchman that was MIA (I think his name is Blake).

I think the police chief is the only black character, despite the fact that there's a large black community in LA. When you consider that redheads are a much smaller minority than blacks in the U.S. (& I assume in the LA area this holds true), it makes me go hmmmm.....

Was this a coincidence of casting or....whatcha trying to say about gingers, Nic?

ETA: thought of another redhead in the show - Caspere's assistant, Erica Johnson (played by Courtney Halverson) who was interviewed after Caspere's disappeared & the detectives ran into on the movie set (taking this to the Speculation thread...)

Edited July 15, 2015 by MyPeopleAreNordic

[Ellaria]

In S1 there was this corrupt ruling class that profited off the private school network and had their way with the students. They created the monster of Carcosa and covered up his serial killings because exposing him would expose their corruption. The same thing is probably happening here. The corrupt financial deals of the Vinci government are entwined with sex parties and young women recruited at the retreat of Ani's dad. But out of this unsavory stew someone much sicker was bred and he (or she) I believe is the one who killed Caspere and Stan (RIP). This person, the Bird-face, has a more personal stake in all this; Bird-face doesn't cover up. He or she sends calling cards, like putting Caspere's body on display and letting Ray live. The only reason the Mayor wants the Caspere case closed is because Caspere was the nexus for all he shady financial transactions. The Mayor either recruited or set up the Mexicans in order to have a patsy to blame. I really don't think he or any of the Vinci machine killed Caspere or employ Bird-face.

 

Very interesting and very likely.

 

Who then is Birdface? One of Frank's henchman - Blake, the one with dead cell phone? Rick Springfield? Ani's father? One of the guys on the movie set?

 

Why let Ray live? Clearly to send a message to Ray, Vinci cops and anyone else involved that they should back-off. As you say, Caspere's death and Ray's attack were demonstrations of deeper issues. It is about a personal vendetta and not a land deal gone awry.

 

What of the missing girl? She is likely connected to the strange sex parties that seem to be at the center of the story.

 

Adding something else to this that has been bugging me: Dixon was taking photos of Paul, most likely to compromise him. What happens now that Dixon is dead? 

Edited July 14, 2015 by Ellaria Sand

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

So did anyone figure out what it means that Frank's huge aura was green & black? (besides that he's a mood ring )

I came across an article about Ray's aura colors and answered my own question.

According to the article, a green aura means one is "detail-oriented and determined. They dwell in all things practical and thus possess a strong hatred for those that are foolish. In this vein, they require stability and are loyal to those that provide it. Interestingly, green is also associated with natural healing ability."

As for the black in his aura: "While green embodies some of this "True Detective" character's most respectful qualities, a black aura does anything but......association with that color signifies negativity, depression and misery. All three of these pitfalls actively confront Velcoro as he struggles with his dirty cop past and fractured relationships. His black aura qualities are precisely what lead him to drink so heavily. By suggesting that Ray Velcoro has a massive green and black aura then, viewers learn that Colin Farrell's character has two completely opposite halves. One side is noble, but the other is far more sinister. Could this duality be connected to the plot's central murder?"

http://www.designntrend.com/articles/57155/20150714/true-detective-season-2-episode-4-ray-velcoro-aura-colin-farrell-character.htm

[Penman61]

Or the show could be using the aura nonsense to characterize both Ray (who thinks it's bs and bonds a bit with Ani over it) and Ani's Dad, who believes in it.  

 

God I hope the show isn't endorsing auras' validity.  Then again, the murderer wears a fucking raven head.

[shapeshifter]

...Adding something else to this that has been bugging me: Dixon was taking photos of Paul, most likely to compromise him. What happens now that Dixon is dead?

Who the heck is Dixon? Stan's brother? Sorry, I could look him up. I'm guessing he's one that took a bullet to the middle of the forehead. How many did die that way in the firefight? Edited July 14, 2015 by shapeshifter

[Ellaria]

Who the heck is Dixon? Stan's brother? Sorry, I could look him up. I'm guessing he's one that took a bullet to the middle of the forehead. How many did die that way in the firefight?

 

Yes - the one that took the bullet in the head. Actor's name is W. Earl Brown. I assume that we will find out about the casualties next week.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

'Maybe It's Time To Put This Cop Shit To Bed' / You said a mouthful, Frank. ...Sarah D. Bunting tries, fails to suspend her True Detective disbelief.

[Quilt Fairy]

Who the heck is Dixon? Stan's brother? Sorry, I could look him up. I'm guessing he's one that took a bullet to the middle of the forehead. How many did die that way in the firefight?

I think Dixon was Ray's partner. At least, Ray's partner was one of several who got shot right between the eyes.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Quilt Fairy

[myname2use4now]

"What happened to Stan?" <---best line in the episode. I cracked up!

 

Great episode. I'm starting to feel sorry for Vince Vaughn, because for me, this episode made me aware of just how painful his dialog is. Whomever said it sounds better as a voice over was right.

 

I have a bad feeling about Athena. Her little speech about how she's just doing the internet thing for a few more months so she has enough money to go to art school. Well...that sounds like a set up to me. Methinks she won't make it to see art school for some reason.

 

I thought it was interesting that at the end of the shoot out, both Velcoro and Bezzerides were visibly shaken but Woodrugh calmly re-holstered his gun. He's used to a lot more chaos than they are thanks to his military background. Still, all three of them had a "what the fuck just happened" look on their faces. It matched the one on mine! Intense.

[Penman61]

I thought it was interesting that at the end of the shoot out, both Velcoro and Bezzerides were visibly shaken but Woodrugh calmly re-holstered his gun. He's used to a lot more chaos than they are thanks to his military background. Still, all three of them had a "what the fuck just happened" look on their faces. It matched the one on mine! Intense.

 

I thought that's what we were definitely supposed to take about Woodrugh from that sequence.  During the entire ambush, he was focused, methodical, and effective; afterward he was (apparently), of the three, the least traumatized by it.  He's seen this type of action before.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Penman61

[paigow]

Who then is Birdface? One of Frank's henchman - Blake, the one with dead cell phone? Rick Springfield? Ani's father? One of the guys on the movie set?

The primary question is: Are Raven Head and the guy that torched the Cadillac two different people? 

[Hobo.PassingThru]

 

I thought that's what we were definitely supposed to take about Woodrugh from that sequence.

That's something I didn't completely notice until re-watching it. But, it did make me wonder if we should expect part of what he went through in that scandalous situation in the war was something similar, a firefight which got out of hand and involved a lot of losses.

[Ellaria]

The primary question is: Are Raven Head and the guy that torched the Cadillac two different people?

Ahh...good question. Now who would know that Ray and Ani were looking for that car? Other cops and the guys questioned on the movie set.

The torching of the Cadillac near the driver's house was an odd sequence. Have they forgotten about it? Ani kept yelling "that was him" and I keep thinking "him who." That act was more than just a warning; that was destruction of evidence.

Then there is the missing hard drive and camera from the house where Ray was shot. They are so busy talking about poisioned lands and fertility problems that some of this weird stuff isn't in the discussion.

[kieyra]

Speaking of poisoned land and fertility problems, when VV's avocados also wouldn't grow I was yelling "Do you get it? Do you? The land is barren ... Like her womb!" at the screen. I am probably getting a little too into the hate-watching as I'm sure there was something else to that scene. Right?

[Jextella]

In S1 there was this corrupt ruling class that profited off the private school network and had their way with the students. They created the monster of Carcosa and covered up his serial killings because exposing him would expose their corruption. The same thing is probably happening here. The corrupt financial deals of the Vinci government are entwined with sex parties and young women recruited at the retreat of Ani's dad. But out of this unsavory stew someone much sicker was bred and he (or she) I believe is the one who killed Caspere and Stan (RIP). This person, the Bird-face, has a more personal stake in all this; Bird-face doesn't cover up. He or she sends calling cards, like putting Caspere's body on display and letting Ray live. The only reason the Mayor wants the Caspere case closed is because Caspere was the nexus for all he shady financial transactions. The Mayor either recruited or set up the Mexicans in order to have a patsy to blame. I really don't think he or any of the Vinci machine killed Caspere or employ Bird-face.

 

Someone on Twitter said that this season of True Detective was an argument for never giving anyone an MFA in creative writing ever again.

This makes sense if the path is the same as season 1, i.e. the killer ends up being some random freak with little or no connection to any of the "clues" put in our faces every episode leading up to the end. 

Edited July 15, 2015 by Jextella

[thuganomics85]

 

I promise to watch next year if they hire Andy Samberg to do a turn as Nic Cage.

I would so be down for next season being just former and current SNL actors, playing characters as their popular imitations from SNL. Besides Samberg doing his Nic Cage, I want to see Bill Hader doing his Al Pacino (or maybe even Alan Alda!), Taren Killian doing his Brad Pitt, Jay Pharoh doing his Will Smith, Vanessa Bayer doing her Miley Cyrus, and Kate McKinnon doing her Justin Bieber!  And, for a special episode, they get Amy Poehler, Tina Fey, Darrell Hammond, and Will Ferrell to play Hilary Clinton, Sara Palin, Bill Clinton, and George W. Bush for no reason.

[catrox14]

Finally caught up to the latest episode.  I'm really loving Colin Farrell here. I've always liked his work and watch pretty much anything he's in. He just has a presence that makes me want to watch him.

 

I'm pretty well confused by the plot right now but that's okay. I'm finding all the leads to be compelling and interesting. 

 

That shootout was pretty amazing. Looking forward to the next episode.

[paigow]

Vanessa Bayer doing her Miley Cyrus, and Kate McKinnon doing her Justin Bieber...  

Headliners at the saddest dive bar not in L.A. County....

[FemmyV]

I haven't watched Season 1 (yet), but I did struggle through all of Twin Peaks some 20+years ago. If nothing else, TD S02 is more coherent than TP. So I shrug off most of the criticism I've seen, so far. It's why I'm also fairly content to be a passive, non-demanding viewer, prepared to allow TPTB to unfold the story in their own time.

 

If I was looking for the simplest explanations, the first for motive I'd look at is the Mayor. He's got the most to lose if all the corruption is exposed. As for all the weird stuff, I wonder what Paul's security company was doing overseas? Little torture, maybe? Do they have a CA office anywhere?

 

Still, why did Bird-face allow Ray to live? Speaking of Ray, put me in the column of people who believe Frank set Ray up in the first place; so much that I think Frank even may have paid for Gena's attack, in order to drop a fall guy and create a corrupt police contact for himself. Sure would be interesting to see what would happen when Ray figures that out, finally.

 

 

That shootout was pretty amazing.

The shootout was damn amazing. I was just so not expecting that.

[pasdetrois]

I think one reason Matthew M. was so good in his role was he was kind of playing himself. He's always projected a kind of loopy knowingness. The bongos and so on.

 

I suspect that privately VV may be the opposite of his rom-com character. That's why I hoped he'd be able to pull off this new role. But I remain disappointed.

 

The others are doing so well and I'm watching for them. Even the guys who play the other law enforcement characters pull it off - irreverent, jaded, dark.

 

The bloodbath, while very well done, ruined the story a bit for me. Too unrealistic.

[Milburn Stone]

I suspect that privately VV may be the opposite of his rom-com character. That's why I hoped he'd be able to pull off this new role. But I remain disappointed.

 

I've been blaming Pizzolatto for VV's dialogue, which has sounded from the beginning and continues to sound like warmed-over Mamet. It is strange that no one else's dialogue sounds like warmed-over Mamet, but I've just been figuring that it's how Pizzolatto (for whatever reason) has been writing Frank.

 

But now a different theory occurs to me. Vaughn was raised in metro Chicago, which has been steeped in storefront (and bigger) theater productions of Mamet since the seventies. From the late seventies through sometime in the nineties there was scarcely a time in Chicago a Mamet play wasn't playing somewhere. Since VV's IMDB bio says he was "interested in theater early on," it's easy for me to believe VV was formed as an actor thinking that's how all serious dialogue should sound. He, not Pizzolatto, might be the one bringing the Mamet.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Milburn Stone

[Bannon]

I would so be down for next season being just former and current SNL actors, playing characters as their popular imitations from SNL. Besides Samberg doing his Nic Cage, I want to see Bill Hader doing his Al Pacino (or maybe even Alan Alda!), Taren Killian doing his Brad Pitt, Jay Pharoh doing his Will Smith, Vanessa Bayer doing her Miley Cyrus, and Kate McKinnon doing her Justin Bieber!  And, for a special episode, they get Amy Poehler, Tina Fey, Darrell Hammond, and Will Ferrell to play Hilary Clinton, Sara Palin, Bill Clinton, and George W. Bush for no reason.

 

Oh, to be able to have Phil Hartman doing his Frank Sinatra in the nightclub, as Samberg/Cage and Hader/Pacino discuss their TD mystery! 

[Penman61]

I'm going to assume 99%+ of the dialogue is written by the writers, not improvised by the actors.  (Happy to be shown otherwise.)  

 

My problem with VV here is an inextricable combination of forced, precious writing ("Am I diminished?"), and his unsure acting choices. He doesn't seem to either have found the core of this character, or, if he has, he's not committing to it.  

 

I personally don't see Pizzolatto's stylistic connections to Mamet.  (But I know mostly Glengarry Glen Ross and House of Games.) 

[blixie]

 

I personally don't see Pizzolatto's stylistic connections to Mamet.

 

I can see it, Mamet's dialogue is often mannered, and sounds like people talking AT each other rather than *with* each other. It's not naturalistic/realistic dialogue, and additionally it's rhythms are stilted, and it's themes are frequently aggressive and center on expressions of or questions of masculinity (am I diminished is a good example, second place is...your fired). I find Mamet aggravating as fuck, but also sometimes entertaining. NP is more florrid, and emotive, but still at pains to prove how smart he is like Mamet, and preoccupied with the angst and anger of the male psyche.

[Milburn Stone]

I'm going to assume 99%+ of the dialogue is written by the writers, not improvised by the actors.

 

Penman61, I'm going to go you one better and posit that 100% is written by Pizzolatto. And, that has nothing to do with my conjecture that VV, steeped in Mamet rhythms from the time he was a child attending Chicago theater, is bringing Mametesque readings to dialogue that already contains that potential.

 

Same dialogue given to MM, different result, because MM doesn't look for the Mamet interp like VV does. But the makings are there in the dialogue.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Milburn Stone

[Penman61]

I can see it, Mamet's dialogue is often mannered, and sounds like people talking AT each other rather than *with* each other. It's not naturalistic/realistic dialogue, and additionally it's rhythms are stilted, and it's themes are frequently aggressive and center on expressions of or questions of masculinity (am I diminished is a good example, second place is...your fired). I find Mamet aggravating as fuck, but also sometimes entertaining. NP is more florrid, and emotive, but still at pains to prove how smart he is like Mamet, and preoccupied with the angst and anger of the male psyche.

I totally agree about the thematic overlap between Mamet and P; stylistically, I still think there's very little overlap.  YMMV.

[kieyra]

Randomly, but was there something meant to explain how such a long gun battle, with lots of automatic weaponry, went on for so very long without any other law enforcement arriving on the scene? Is the idea that the 'bad guys' were able to block any 911 dispatch process, or was the battle just supposed to be so far out in (wherever is the lawless ganglands of SoCal?) that it took a very long time before we could even hear a siren?

 

I understand that nearly every bystander got shot, but surely some people took cover and dialed 911, and perhaps people in the surrounding blocks decided not to walk directly into the lines of fire. 

[Cardie]

put me in the column of people who believe Frank set Ray up in the first place; so much that I think Frank even may have paid for Gena's attack, in order to drop a fall guy and create a corrupt police contact for himself

 

Wow, FemmyV, I hadn't considered that twisted possibility. Should this be the case, I vote Frank's red-headed assistant Blake Churchman as Gena's assailant and Bird-head, torturing and killing Caspere to get his hands on the $8 million and go around Frank to make a deal with the Russians. Our hero, Stan, got wind of his betrayal and had to die, too.

 

Randomly, but was there something meant to explain how such a long gun battle, with lots of automatic weaponry, went on for so very long without any other law enforcement arriving on the scene?

 

Those of us who think the corrupt higher-ups sent our 3 Troublesome Detectives into an ambush intentionally conclude that they also dragged their feet on sending back-up. There's no logical explanation in the episode itself.

[snowblossom2]

Randomly, but was there something meant to explain how such a long gun battle, with lots of automatic weaponry, went on for so very long without any other law enforcement arriving on the scene? Is the idea that the 'bad guys' were able to block any 911 dispatch process, or was the battle just supposed to be so far out in (wherever is the lawless ganglands of SoCal?) that it took a very long time before we could even hear a siren?

I understand that nearly every bystander got shot, but surely some people took cover and dialed 911, and perhaps people in the surrounding blocks decided not to walk directly into the lines of fire.

Someone else previously mentioned this, but the only way this makes sense is if the shoot out was a set up by the police

[MarkySnark]

Has anyone seen Andy Samberg & Co.'s HBO mockumentary "7 Days in Hell"? They absolutely nailed it. It would be awesome if they could give True Detective the same treatment, and call it "Who the Fuck is Stan?"

[kieyra]

Wow, FemmyV, I hadn't considered that twisted possibility. Should this be the case, I vote Frank's red-headed assistant Blake Churchman as Gena's assailant and Bird-head, torturing and killing Caspere to get his hands on the $8 million and go around Frank to make a deal with the Russians. Our hero, Stan, got wind of his betrayal and had to die, too.

 

Those of us who think the corrupt higher-ups sent our 3 Troublesome Detectives into an ambush intentionally conclude that they also dragged their feet on sending back-up. There's no logical explanation in the episode itself.

I know this is the kind of thing that doesn't bear close examination, but doesn't that require a whole chain of people, including journalists and civilians listening to police scanners, to ignore/fail to act on multiple mass-shooting 911 calls? That's the kind of thing that gets seriously logged.

I know this is a dumb thing to fixate on. Probably a result of a mild true crime obsession.