S11.E08: Week 7

[mostlylurking]

What the eff did I just watch?!?

That had to be the worst two on one I've ever seen. Holy awkwardness Batman. She should have gotten rid of both of them.

I'm liking the idea of Benzie as the next Bachelor. He seemed very sincere. Although the trend of guys being very meh about getting eliminated continues (Cupcake meltdown notwithstanding).

I laughed out loud with Chris Harrison pretty much pimping Kaitlyn out (more than usual). Sean is being a creeper but I am convinced she slept with him too so I guess that's why he's freaking out about Kaitlyn's alone time with Nick more than the other guys. I felt sorry for him when Kaitlyn was so visibly relieved he didn't actually know about Nick. She was basically like "oh this is just due to YOUR insecurities. I don't really care about that." I do have to ask what show did Shawn think he was applying for? Kaitlyn can't tell him she loves him 1. because she doesn't, and 2. because she signed a contract to go through with this show to the end.

Lastly this is off topic but I binged watched unReal this weekend and omg it's making me side eye everything more than usual. As with all reality shows you have to take it with a grain of salt but seeing all the behind the scenes machinations, although fictionalized, just gives it another perspective.

Edited July 2, 2015 by mostlylurking

[thejuicer]

Also, is she really a dancer?   She looks so frail and brittle, like she has early onset osteoporosis.    I seem to remember her on the Bachelor as being slim, but with curvy hips and boobs. 

 

*Snort*. That's what I have been thinking this entire season too. I don't know if she's losing tons of weight or just wearing larger clothes but  she just seems frail and unhealthy unlike dancers who typically have muscular lean bodies.  While I'm on the superficial, Kaitlyn is trained as a hair stylist? If I have to see her with her brown hair parted down the middle with one side clipped behind her ear I'm going to scream.  That's what I do when I'm about to wash my makeup off, geez.

[JudyObscure]

The term 'whore' is derogatory and even those who have sex for money should have the dignity of being called commercial sex workers.

 

I never use the word whore, but I'm not going to call a prostitute a commercial sex worker anymore than I would call a drug dealer a pharmaceutical rep.   Some jobs don't deserve to be dignified with fancy titles, particularly ones that increase violence against women, bring crime to neighborhoods, and serve as a gateway to child prostitution and pornography.

[mostlylurking]

 

 

It's one thing to sleep with multiple partners, but it's another to tell each one "you're the one."

I agree with this.  I don't give two craps about how many people the bachelor(ette) sleeps with.  I'm much more offended by the words they are telling their potential suitors than by any of their sexy times.

[Zung Li]

I keep reading that many Bachelors and Bachelorettes have done the same thing and it just isn't shown. I think that's not really true because they showed JP in the water with Clare and Ben in the water with Courtney. The camera crew can't walk out into the water with them. They were smart enough to at least go where the camera and sound guy couldn't follow them. I'm sure if they had footage of other couples doing it they would have at least shown us a glimpse of it. If Bob Guiney really had sex with 5.5 women during his show he was probably smart enough to do it when no crew was around- maybe they didn't monitor the lead as much back then. If Kaitlyn managed 6-7 hours alone with Shawn in his bed off camera (per him) then she could have managed alone time with Nick. She knew the camera crew was in the room when she took him into the bedroom and didn't seem to mind them being there.

 

The lead used to be kept in a separate location from the contestants. Remember on Chris' season CH said, "there are no rules" and told the women that Chris was right down the road. That was a change from the norm. They were hoping the contestants were going to sneak down there so they could show it. Why would they do that if they were planning on not showing someone sneak to Chris' room? When a couple of girls went to Chris' tent during the camping date the camera was filming what happened in the tent. They didn't just politely withdraw. If Chris would have zipped up said tent and there was moaning and sex noises coming out they would have shown it. They did that with Molly and Jason even though both say they didn't do anything sexual in their tent.

Edited July 2, 2015 by mingming

[Ms Blue Jay]

A lot of people are assuming Kaitlyn slept with Shawn because he's acting stalkery/hurt/Stage 5 clinger.

 

You know there are people out there who stalk and act clingy, and this is even with zero involvement from their object of desire.  I'm just putting that out there.  When you're the target of that, it's really aggravating when people assume that you were physical with this person and that's why they're so attached.

 

Obviously this is not the exact same thing because Kaitlyn has shown feelings (I guess?) towards Shawn.  We don't actually know what she even said to Shawn, whether she actually said "You're the one".  It was NOT on camera.  A lot of things are being assumed here, but if I am to believe Shawn he seems 100x more into the 'relationship' than Kaitlyn does.  Kaitlyn seemed to be having a lot of fun until Shawn kept showing up at her doorstep and guilting her every 5 seconds.

[Padma]

A lot of people are assuming Kaitlyn slept with Shawn because he's acting stalkery/hurt/Stage 5 clinger.

 

You know there are people out there who stalk and act clingy, and this is even with zero involvement from their object of desire.  I'm just putting that out there.  When you're the target of that, it's really aggravating when people assume that you were physical with this person and that's why they're so attached.

 

Obviously this is not the exact same thing because Kaitlyn has shown feelings (I guess?) towards Shawn.  We don't actually know what she even said to Shawn, whether she actually said "You're the one".  It was NOT on camera.  A lot of things are being assumed here, but if I am to believe Shawn he seems 100x more into the 'relationship' than Kaitlyn does.  Kaitlyn seemed to be having a lot of fun until Shawn kept showing up at her doorstep and guilting her every 5 seconds.

I'm convinced that Shawn is telling the truth not just because of how he acts, but also because of the way Kaitlyn behaves around him and the others. Also what Chris Harrison has said and the weird "pimping you all out" rules change to do damage control with the other men before, imo, it all explodes and someone says something to Kaitlyn that -really- destroys the "fairy tale" illusion.

 

Also, Ben's comment to her just seemed so obvious (to me anyway) that she had done a "quickie" followup to the five hour hotel room stay.  I'm going to keep calling her names, not gender-specific slurs, but some universal ones that I think fit her to a "t"-- "tacky", "inconsiderate" and "stupid".

[CaughtOnTape]

I don't think anyone's debating that the girl is tacky, inconsiderate and stupid.  

 

[snip]

[Andromeda]

1955 wasn't so bad, only 5% of children were born to single mothers.

Because women were shamed into staying with men who mistreated them and were completely miserable. (And men, too). I would never want to go back there. Over on The Astronaut Wives Club, one wife has to hide that she was married and divorced previously, and that she (gasp!) worked overseas as a single woman. Both were considered scandalous.

I wasn't so much bothered by Juan Pablo sleeping or having sexy times with Clare, as I was how dismissive he was with her, telling her he didn't love her but she was a good "f**k." Or something along those lines. I agree Kaitlyn is being dismissive of Shawn -- I think she made a common but foolhardy mistake of making her decision early on, then realizing she liked Nick, too, when he came a long. The mistake being that she didn't wait to really get to know Shawn. I bet she had no idea he would be that clingy, for instance.

The first-impression rose person never wins, and that's the reason -- it takes time to get to know someone.

A lot of people are assuming Kaitlyn slept with Shawn because he's acting stalkery/hurt/Stage 5 clinger.

 

You know there are people out there who stalk and act clingy, and this is even with zero involvement from their object of desire.  I'm just putting that out there.  When you're the target of that, it's really aggravating when people assume that you were physical with this person and that's why they're so attached.

 

Obviously this is not the exact same thing because Kaitlyn has shown feelings (I guess?) towards Shawn.  We don't actually know what she even said to Shawn, whether she actually said "You're the one".  It was NOT on camera.  A lot of things are being assumed here, but if I am to believe Shawn he seems 100x more into the 'relationship' than Kaitlyn does.  Kaitlyn seemed to be having a lot of fun until Shawn kept showing up at her doorstep and guilting her every 5 seconds.

I agree. I could see her growing weary of having to reassure Shawn -- heck, I was growing tired of it, and I'm just on the sidelines. She had no idea he was so insecure and clingy when she told him he was likely the one. Edited July 2, 2015 by Andromeda

[JudyObscure]

Because women were shamed into staying with men who mistreated them and were completely miserable. I would never want to go back there.

I don't know if that many single women were "shamed," into staying with abusive boyfriends. Wouldn't most families have encouraged their daughter to break up with  a man who mistreated her? I thought the low un-married birth rate had more to do with women waiting until their boyfriend had proved his commitment by marrying her before allowing herself to become pregnant.

 

Well, I don't want to get too argumentative over a show where we're supposed to be playing drinking games and laughing.  So lets just say Kaitlyn really, truly had sex with Nick the Cowlick, and everything else is based on interpretation of euphemisms.

 

It's either:

Kaitlyn went to say goodbye to Shawn as a "sweet gesture", and after a while Ben "went  to take a shower," and when he came back  "the vibe was different," and Shawn seemed "very happy."

 

Or:

Kaitlyn went to say goodbye to Shawn as a " last chance for sexy times" for days, and after a while Ben " left the room because he was bored to tears," and when he came back "Shawn and Kaitlyn were straightening their clothes," and Ben was, "bathed in sweat and breathing hard with a big stupid grin on his face."

 

It is true we don't know for sure, but the second situation seems mighty likely to some of us, mainly because the first scenario doesn't seem like something Ben would have worried about for a days and needed to talk to Kaitlyn about.

[Andromeda]

I don't know if that many single women were "shamed," into staying with abusive boyfriends. Wouldn't most families have encouraged their daughter to break up with  a man who mistreated her? I thought the low un-married birth rate had more to do with women waiting until their boyfriend had proved his commitment by marrying her before allowing herself to become pregnant.

Shotgun weddings. That's where the term came from. If the girl got pregnant, the parents saved face by making them marry (with a shotgun, if necessary). Ergo, unhappy marriages, but the kid is born in wedlock, so there's that.

Kaitlyn went to say goodbye to Shawn as a "sweet gesture", and after a while Ben "went to take a shower," and when he came back "the vibe was different," and Shawn seemed "very happy."

I guess I'm naive. I'm one of the few whose mind didn't go to sex when Ben described that. I figured it was a conversation, where Kaitlyn kissed and reassured Shawn that he was "probably/likely/whatever modifier" the one, so Shawn was no longer freaking out (which he does very visibly) and was happy.

Or sex, but wow, that's ballsy with another guy in the room.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Andromeda

[deSchenke]

I don't know if that many single women were "shamed," into staying with abusive boyfriends. Wouldn't most families have encouraged their daughter to break up with  a man who mistreated her? I thought the low un-married birth rate had more to do with women waiting until their boyfriend had proved his commitment by marrying her before allowing herself to become pregnant.

Unmarried people of the opposite sex did not live together in those times.  And if the woman became pregnant, they opted for a quickie wedding to make the baby "legitimate".   I suspect that is the reason for the low single-mother rate of 1955 in great part.

[Zung Li]

Joe told Nick that Kaitlyn had invited Shawn to her room after the second group date (that would be the Sumo date) so they had that alone time very early. Then there was the night in SA after the group date that she went to Shawn and Ben's room. I'm not sure if that is the same time that Shawn is referring to when he says she spent 6-7 hours alone with him off camera in his bed (why would he say alone if Ben was there?) It might have been two different times (one with Ben H and one alone) or Ben was asleep for most of the night.

Edited July 2, 2015 by mingming

[JudyObscure]

I'm sure there were plenty of shot gun marriages  and of course if you're  living together and having regular sex then your chances of getting pregnant are greater than if you're not, although we have birth control and they didn't, so it seems like the stats of unplanned pregnancy should have lessened instead of increased tenfold. What ever the reasons, children weren't growing up without fathers at the rate they are now and I think that's more important than whether some astronaut's wife was embarrassed about being divorced. Milage varies, of course.

[Padma]

Joe told Nick that Kaitlyn had invited Shawn to her room after the second group date (that would be the Sumo date) so they had that alone time very early. Then there was the night in SA after the group date that she went to Shawn and Ben's room. I'm not sure if that is the same time that Shawn is referring to when he says she spent 6-7 hours alone with him off camera in his bed (why would he say alone if Ben was there?) It might have been two different times (one with Ben H and one alone) or Ben was asleep for most of the night.

CH said that Kaitlyn choose her #1 so early on, and made it so obvious (at least to the producers) that they worried it would ruin the show so they brought in Nick. This makes sense to me that it happened after the second group date, where she invited him back to her room, they spent five hours and she told him he was the one. 

 

Then producers, panicking, brought in Nick and it succeeded (maybe too much) when she slept with him, too.  The time with Shawn while Ben was in the shower sounds to me like a second time, much more recent since Ben was only recently bothered by it apparently, i.e. a time after Nick was already in the house.

 

Of all the things she's apparently done sexually on the show, that's the one that I'm most critical of--what seems like an obvious "quickie" (of some sort) while Ben was taking his shower.  So rude. (Remember how what's-her-name the cruise ship singer in Chris' season felt disrespected and hurt when he came in to kiss Britt and take her on a date. Imagine her feelings if she went for a shower and came back after they'd obviously "done it" in the room.)  Kaitlyn has zero judgment. No wonder TPTB are trying to minimize her group interactions, hope they can keep the men from comparing notes before the hometown dates, and get her down to a F3 ASAP.

[call me ishmael]

I'm sure there were plenty of shot gun marriages  and of course if you're  living together and having regular sex then your chances of getting pregnant are greater than if you're not, although we have birth control and they didn't, so it seems like the stats of unplanned pregnancy should have lessened instead of increased tenfold. What ever the reasons, children weren't growing up without fathers at the rate they are now and I think that's more important than whether some astronaut's wife was embarrassed about being divorced. Milage varies, of course.

I'm not sure where your statistics are coming from exactly but the rate of children born to unmarried women rose quite dramatically starting in the the 1940s through the 1980s and according to the cdc the growth rate declined in the 1990s.  Also, it is hard to pick out one aspect of life to decide if the past was "better."  Women had fewer options then and did not have the same opportunities for economic independence which really didn't develop to the 1970s, and even those opportunities differed in terms of class, race and geography.  

 

I'm also not really sure what this has to do with Kaitlyn who as far as I can tell had sex with two guys in a couple of weeks on a dating show (as opposed to having sex with a few guys in a couple of nights when it would be part of the narrative in the fantasy suites).  Does anyone think that Chris didn't sleep with both Kaitlyn and Whitney?  He must have been a real slut musn't  he?? 

[leighdear]

 

Couldn't she have just had a chat with Cupcake in a back room somewhere?

I think it really depends on the lead.  They let Sean cut Sarah Herron (the girl with a partial arm) in her hotel room, away from the other contestants and before the cocktail party.  He was kind and consoling, and did it very graciously.  But Sean was able to pull that off, where it would have looked very bizarre coming from Kaitlyn.  Not that she's mean, she just doesn't display any sensitivity. 

[JudyObscure]

but the rate of children born to unmarried women rose quite dramatically starting in the the 1940s through the 1980s and according to the cdc the growth rate declined in the 1990s.

 

{Tangent} Right .  Someone said something about things being worse in 1955 and I said it wasn't all bad because  then, because the percent of children born to single mothers was much lower.  It was.  Stats may rise and fall but right now 4 out of 10 children are born to single mothers and in the 1950's it was a rare thing.   Other things have gotten better since the 1950's, equal and civil rights have come a long way for instance, but I was just pointing out that I didn't think the fifties were all bad, particularly for children.  I think women's freedom to have all the sex they want has had a downside and children have paid the  price. That's (vaguely) how this relates to Kaitlyn, although, if she's using reliable birth control it's not even a factor. { /tangent}

 

You know, just as an aside, the only time I've seen "slut" used on this thread it's been by people attacking the rest of us for saying it. I don't think anyone did.

Edited July 2, 2015 by JudyObscure

[truthaboutluv]

Maybe not slut, but she has been called a whore a few times which is just as bad, if not worse. 

[Zung Li]

 

 

I'm also not really sure what this has to do with Kaitlyn who as far as I can tell had sex with two guys in a couple of weeks on a dating show (as opposed to having sex with a few guys in a couple of nights when it would be part of the narrative in the fantasy suites).  Does anyone think that Chris didn't sleep with both Kaitlyn and Whitney?  He must have been a real slut musn't  he?? 

 

We do know that Chris had sex with Kaitlyn in the FS because she blabbed it on Ryan Seacrest while Chris was still engaged to Whitney. I can't give a neutral opinion on whether this reflects badly on him or not because I hated him anyway.

 

Anyway, I don't like the idea of all this unauthorized "alone time" I want to be able to somewhat accurately judge how much time the lead and a given contestant have had together so I can laugh at them for falling in love in a matter of hours- or so I can see how much more of a "connection" they have.  When they start trying to beat the system and keep secrets it makes it boring and confusing for the viewer. You can see in one of Shawn's many confrontations that Kaitlyn is either speaking to him and her audio is turned off or dubbed out, or she is mouthing something to him. His face registered that she said something even though you can't hear it. Then she whispers, "did you hear that"? Lame!

[tess17]

I don't think anyone's debating that the girl is tacky, inconsiderate and stupid.

[snip]

I suppose I need to go back and watch the last few episodes but didn't she basically come right out and say she had sex with nick ?

[seacliffsal]

I think that in order to improve ratings, the producers went in the direction of you! never! know! what! will! happen! and started encouraging the bachelor/ette as well as the contestants to "break the rules."  That's where I think everything started going wrong.  I agree with MingMing that I want to see what is happening, not have to guess as to what is going on.  Also, I think when access to the bachelor/ette was limited, it actually upped the ante for everyone as getting time alone was harder and therefore more desirable.  Now it's kind of like 'I can get together with him/her if I want off-camera; no big deal...'  I'd prefer it if they went back to the more traditional approach they had.  Yes, I watch this for the trainwreck that it usually is, but this season is just...weird (and not in the good way).  I also think they need to go back to getting bachelors/ettes who really were desirable-had good jobs, personalities, etc.  Things that would entice the candidates into competing.  Although I thought Chris was really boring and didn't really enjoy him as the bachelor, he (his family) was wealthy-but it didn't make up for the smallness and isolation of his hometown.  Okay, I'm done with my rant (at least for now....).

[Kareem]

...

Every time Jared and Kaitlyn are together it's like two teens hanging out and having fun. I hope Kaitlyn doesn't sleep with him during her fast forward tour of sexual exploration, because he seems too emotionally young to be played with that way. It's bad enough that she's practically turned Shawn into a "Dateline," story.

lolol So true! Shawn looks like Vincent Price and is just about as doomy.

Strange editing. Strange season...

[Beebee111]

 

I never use the word whore, but I'm not going to call a prostitute a commercial sex worker anymore than I would call a drug dealer a pharmaceutical rep.   Some jobs don't deserve to be dignified with fancy titles, particularly ones that increase violence against women, bring crime to neighborhoods, and serve as a gateway to child prostitution and pornography.

 

It's not about dignifying a job. It's about dignifying a person, many of whom have few choices and end up in undesirable situations because of unthinkable hardships and injustices.

 

 

JudyObscure, on 02 Jul 2015 - 3:57 PM, said:

    Well, I don't want to get too argumentative over a show where we're supposed to be playing drinking games and laughing. So lets just say Kaitlyn really, truly had sex with Nick the Cowlick, and everything else is based on interpretation of euphemisms.

 

 

Hear, hear! This thread has become a real downer. Everyone channel your inner Elsa and Let It Go! Let's find some common ground that we can all agree on: This season is a Wrong Reasons trainwreck! Now whether one thinks that's a good thing or a bad thing is plenty fodder for on-topic debate.

 

LOL. I agree. On the other hand, those who say reality TV is trash that can't elicit any form of challenging intellectual dialogue on current political/social issues clearly don't visit this thread after watching the Bachelor/ette. I am happy to move on from this now. I admit to fast forwarding through much of this season though - the show is really deteriorating for me into something that's almost unwatchable. There used to be at least a small part of me that would root for a few characters even as I watched for the 'wrong reasons' but that's becoming impossible.

Edited July 4, 2015 by Rhondinella

[leighdear]

 

There used to be at least a small part of me that would root for a few characters even as I watched for the 'wrong reasons' but that's becoming impossible.

Agreed. 

 

And there's still that 9 year-old girl in me that enjoys watching 2 pretty people in a pretty place saying pretty things to each other, as if it's real.  Every season has had some of that, up until this season.  As if Cinderella has been replaced by Linda Lovelace. 

[backformore]

Yeah, I used to watch to make fun of a show that took itself too seriously.  I never believed you could "find love" by dating a bunch of people at once, and then marry your favorite.  The premise called out for me to mock the show.

But now - the show is such a parody of itself, I can't make fun of it. 

[Cecily]

I just have to put this out there: I love this season.

 

Guess I'm the only one. As a "wrong reasons" watcher, I don't see what's lacking. This is perfect train wreck TV to me, and I don't mind the new formula. I really don't miss the rose ceremonies at the end, or the serious "getting to know you" conversations at the cocktail parties. I don't mind that Kaitlyn is "tacky", I actually find her spontaneous lack of self control rather entertainting. Sure, sleeping with Nick wasn't a smart move (You're on TV for God's sake!), and it is kind of disrespectful to any other guy who might have a reason to feel he was "the one" (maybe Shawn and Ben H, but definitly not Ben Z or Joe, or any other guy). But other than that, who's really hurt? And isn't that an issue between her and the potenial she picks?

 

The only thing I really take issue with this season is the editing. I don't buy that the producers never had footage or information of any previous bachelor or bachelorette doing what Kaitlyn is doing. She is just honest (I don't want to say dumb) enough to admit to it on camera. And so they played it for all it's worth: She is the "harlot" who needs to regret her mistake. But then what else is new. The producers of this show have always been misogynistic creeps. Cases in point: That Rosalyn girl who had to do a walk of shame for daring to flirt with a crew member instead of the lead, while Bentley on Ashley's season got to talk endlessly about not liking her while noone alerted Ashley.

[seasick]

Unfortunately there is a double standard for men and women.  Whether I agree or disagree with it,  it does exist.  The men carry that double standard.  And that is the  'customer'  here so to speak.  

 

Men don't particularly like (take for a mate or serious gf)  women who are known to sleep with a lot of different guys. (sorry!)   It makes them insecure I suppose and they don't feel special.  Men will call a woman who does that a slut, a skank, whatever...  Guys don't want to be with someone where the men are all talking that they  'had her too'.   It's just a fact, right or wrong.  That's how THEY FEEL.

 

So personally, I would keep my private life private. (different towns, states, social circles whatever..never the twain to meet)  

 

In youthful  single years I have had boyfriends ask how many lovers I have had.  I cop only to serious past relationships.(" Ummm  3 ? "  truth was prolly closer to 15)  frankly they even seem bothered by that. [snip]   But..the customer's always right.. that's what they like, or don't like.  Take it or leave it. 

 

Yeah, this is the new age and all that.   .I was in on the days of "free love' and the pill.  Frankly, it was great!  It changed MY mind about what I felt okay about.. but I don't think the MEN changed all that much.

 

So if I was Kait  and wanted "my husband to be in that room" , I would try to appeal to what men like.  Just seems to make sense.  I wouldn't be sticking my tongue down every guy's throat.. I would keep more distance physically until it got down to men I actually considered.  

 

Frankly, I don't think I'd sleep with any of them even at FS time. The one you sleep with now believes you slept with all 3.  Don't want my "hubby" to know that.  I want hubby to think he's special..that I'm a special prize that HE won.  (maybe i'd sleep w the crew..I don't care..just NOT with the guys!!!)  .

 

And honestly, if a guy is in love with you..he wants that special feeling.  

 

I don't like menwhores.  I don't like guys who will take anything looks easy or says whatever to get the chick in the sack.    It seems desperate and kinda pathetic.  But I don't blame say, Farmer Chris for sleeping with Kait on the Jimmy Kimmel date.  It was there,  and booze,  and a hot-to-trot girl.  so be it. (oh for sure.. they did the dirty.)    So for me, men don't get a complete pass in my book, but men don't have to deal with the DS as much, [snip]

 

So...  right or wrong.. my experience with men says Kait's got a problem if she's looking for a husband there.  She is coming off as cheap (to the MEN!  ...who cares what other women think!)  

 

If I were her I'd be very wary of any suitors now fearing they are looking for an easy lay...knowing that   ''I'm a girl who is just being me and I'm not ashamed and I have poor impulse control and that's okay and blablahBLAH)     Yeah!  I'd be suspicious!! 

 

If I was on the Bachelor..I would not sleep with him in the FS.  I would tell him flat out..If I am "the one"  then that's something else.  but we are not at that point yet.  

 

So for fun..   if you were the bachette, would you sleep with any of the guys at FS time (or before) ?      If you were final 3 on The Bachelor, how would you handle the FS?  Would you sneak down to his room say,  like Courtney did?

 

It will be so fun to hear different opinions!!  hope to hear some of your thoughts!! .  

Edited July 4, 2015 by Rhondinella
misandry

[Armchair Critic]

I do agree with you on one thing, I never cop to the actual number of men I have been with... I always say less than 5. HAHAHAAAAA   ;)  

[JudyObscure]

So for fun..   if you were the bachette, would you sleep with any of the guys at FS time (or before) ?      If you were final 3 on The Bachelor, how would you handle the FS?  Would you sneak down to his room say,  like Courtney did?

 

I'll play!  I wouldn't sleep with any body while the show was running, either as the Bachette or one of some guy's final three.  Any of that would be too public for my taste and if the Bachelor I was trying to win couldn't make the decision without that, then he wouldn't be for me. There's so much more to marriage than that.  I don't think you have to go to home base to know if you have chemistry with someone, if that spark  is there it will flame-up with the touch of a hand.   Total test driving could come after the final rose, as Ashley's JP said, on this show, that ring means, "Now, we start dating."

[operalover]

I keep reading that many Bachelors and Bachelorettes have done the same thing and it just isn't shown. I think that's not really true because they showed JP in the water with Clare and Ben in the water with Courtney. The camera crew can't walk out into the water with them. They were smart enough to at least go where the camera and sound guy couldn't follow them. I'm sure if they had footage of other couples doing it they would have at least shown us a glimpse of it. If Bob Guiney really had sex with 5.5 women during his show he was probably smart enough to do it when no crew was around- maybe they didn't monitor the lead as much back then. If Kaitlyn managed 6-7 hours alone with Shawn in his bed off camera (per him) then she could have managed alone time with Nick. She knew the camera crew was in the room when she took him into the bedroom and didn't seem to mind them being there.

 

The lead used to be kept in a separate location from the contestants. Remember on Chris' season CH said, "there are no rules" and told the women that Chris was right down the road. That was a change from the norm. They were hoping the contestants were going to sneak down there so they could show it. Why would they do that if they were planning on not showing someone sneak to Chris' room? When a couple of girls went to Chris' tent during the camping date the camera was filming what happened in the tent. They didn't just politely withdraw. If Chris would have zipped up said tent and there was moaning and sex noises coming out they would have shown it. They did that with Molly and Jason even though both say they didn't do anything sexual in their tent.

I 100% agree with this post. If there had been footage of previous bachelors and bachelorettes having sex, we would have seen it - Those had the sense to keep it on the down low. All these people saying Oh they are just editing her like this when it happens all the time. I agree it happens all the time, but OFF camera and she was so stupid (and horny) that she didn't care that the cameras were there. This was her mistake, not having sex with Nick- but being so horny for him that she forgot she was the lead on a show called the Bachelorette where she is not supposed to be screwing the guys on one-on-one dates in front of the cameras. How she did this makes me question how dumb she is.  We have all had sex with people and in situations that perhaps we knew was "wrong" but did it anyway. But her having no self control to  know she is on a popular show and EVERYONE including the other contestants and viewers are going to see it- WTF? She should have said to him- I want you very very badly but I can't, not now!" and stopped. It doesn't look good. You look like you have no self-control. 

[Ketzel]

Unfortunately there is a double standard for men and women.  Whether I agree or disagree with it,  it does exist.  The men carry that double standard.  And that is the  'customer'  here so to speak.  

 

Men don't particularly like (take for a mate or serious gf)  women who are known to sleep with a lot of different guys. (sorry!)   It makes them insecure I suppose and they don't feel special.  Men will call a woman who does that a slut, a skank, whatever...  Guys don't want to be with someone where the men are all talking that they  'had her too'.   It's just a fact, right or wrong.  That's how THEY FEEL.

I don't think this is actually a universal truth. Certainly there are some men who feel this way. And there are some who recognize that the double standard is unfair to women and reject the idea that a sexually experienced woman is automatically damaged goods, unfit for wifely status. Kaitlyn has been open about her opinion that "test driving" the men she is considering as a potential husband is an important part of her selection process. It seems to me that may be not only about assessing her physical compatibility with the guys. It may also be because she know that any man who finds that off-putting would not be the right husband for her.

(I may be giving her too much credit for personal insight.)

Edited July 4, 2015 by Ketzel

[Rhondinella]

Ok, everyone.  I admit I got a couple days behind in reading this forum (because . . . life) so let me address a couple things that have been going on for a while:

 

1) Let's stop the discussion of whether Kaitlyn is or isn't a "skank," "whore," or "slut."  And CERTAINLY desist from using those words to describe her.  You can dissect and discuss her behavior if you wish, and you can disagree with it, but you can do so without slut-shaming. 

 

2) If you see someone breaking this rule or critiquing other posters' thoughts please hit the "report" button at the bottom of the post (the one that looks like a triangle with an arrow).  DON'T respond to it in the thread or make comments about the "tone" of the conversation.  Just report it and we'll take care of it.

 

3) It seems to have mostly died out, but let's desist on the topic of single mothers in the 1950s.  It's way off topic.

 

Thanks.

[Mabinogia]

Kaitlyn has been open about her opinion that "test driving" the men she is considering as a potential husband is an important part of her selection process. It seems to me that may be not only about assessing her physical compatibility with the guys. It may also be because she know that any man who finds that off-putting would not be the right husband for her.

 

 

I agree with this. She is being who she is. To demure and not kiss the guys and not flirt and not insert herself into the drama would be disingenuous and lead to a very miserable relationship. If a guy wants a sweet, chaste girl, than Kaitlyn isn’t for him and pretending that she is what he’s looking for isn’t going to end well. Yes, if she acted more “lady like” then more of the guys would be interested, but those aren’t the kind of guys that she will want.

 

Kaitlyn is not to everyone’s taste, and certainly a guy who wants to marry a virginal wife who worships no one but him is not going to want her, but she’s better off being herself and finding a guy who likes who she is than pretending to be someone she’s not and getting all the guys to want her…but it’s not really her they want, it’s who she’s pretending to be.

 

I have come to dislike Kaitlyn a lot this season, but not because she slept with Nick and possibly Shawn, or because she has kissed a bunch of hot guys who are all there to win her, but because she seems to love fueling the drama, which is something I detest.

Edited July 4, 2015 by Mabinogia

[Rhondinella]

I agree with most all of your post Mabinogia, except this last phrase:

 

because she seems to love fueling the drama, which is something I detest.

 

 

I suppose it's a matter of perception, but I get the feeling that Kaitlyn is NOT the one driving the drama, or at least not intentionally, and is totally over how stressful this season has been.  The producers are the ones creating the drama. Granted, her behavior hasn't necessarily helped, but the producers COULD have chosen not to show her going into the bedroom with Nick.  They COULD have prevented Shawn from going up to her room--twice!--if they wanted to.  They COULD have not allowed Nick into the competition.  But they didn't.  They are creating drama for the sake of the story.  Is Kaitlyn (perhaps unintentionally) complicit?  Yes, but I don't think it's because she wants to be.

[Mabinogia]

I don't actually mean the Shawn/Nick sex drama.

 

I meant, and it probably is partly producer driven, but like when Kupa left, she couldn't just let him go, they had their confrontation then he left, but he was still talking and instead of just laughing it off like I thought she would based on how she was last season, she had to go out here and confront him one last time. And with, was it Clint?, when he said all the guys didn't like Nick, rather than quietly asking one or two of them what they thought, she dragged him in front of everyone and called him out on it. That is building more drama than there needed to be.

 

I don’t care for that kind of confrontational drama because it feels like it’s just drama because she enjoys drama, or rather, she enjoys protesting about how much drama there is when half of it is being spurred on by her.

 

For the most part I still like her, but I feel a little like Ian in expecting on thing, in my case I expected a chill, laid back, fun girl and getting something else, in my case a drama queen who feeds the fire then protests that it’s too hot.

Edited July 4, 2015 by Mabinogia

[chocolatine]

I suppose it's a matter of perception, but I get the feeling that Kaitlyn is NOT the one driving the drama, or at least not intentionally, and is totally over how stressful this season has been.  The producers are the ones creating the drama. Granted, her behavior hasn't necessarily helped, but the producers COULD have chosen not to show her going into the bedroom with Nick.  They COULD have prevented Shawn from going up to her room--twice!--if they wanted to.  They COULD have not allowed Nick into the competition.  But they didn't.  They are creating drama for the sake of the story.  Is Kaitlyn (perhaps unintentionally) complicit?  Yes, but I don't think it's because she wants to be.

 

She may not be driving it, but she's playing all too readily into the producers' hands. She could have said no to Nick joining the show in NYC. Even if she did really like him and wanted to keep him around, she could have practiced some impulse control and not invited him into her room after their 1-on-1 date - FS dates would have happened soon enough and she could have had "private time" with him then. She could have been more careful about her choice of words with Shawn. She could have avoided being intimate with Shawn while Ben H was showering in the adjoining bathroom. She could have been honest with the men she was getting close to that she was going to "test-drive" more than one of them and that if anyone had a problem with that (*cough* Shawn *cough*), they are probably not the right fit for her. But she chose to do all of those things and then acted surprised and put-upon when she saw the consequences of her own actions play out. I'm of the "you made your bed, so lay in it" school of thought, which is why I can't sympathize with her anymore.

[Rhondinella]

Oh, she's totally partly responsible, I agree. Maybe the "drama" she craves is just of a different nature than the "drama" she's getting.

[Mu Shu]

She enjoys causing drama.   She's horribly unskilled at managing the drama.   If she could manage it better, and didn't seem like such a self centered sourpuss, it would be entertaining.   She really doesn't belong in front of a camera as a lead,  she's too schlumpy (her movement is stiff and compressed, and she can't fill the frame) and not compelling.   Those things do matter.     She's attractive, IMO. but not photogenic or dynamic at all. 

[himela]

Does Ben just take really long showers?

Haha it seems we are doomed to spend time wondering every season about the type of showers people take or even not take (Britt). :P

[Padma]

I admit it, I blame Kaitlyn for creating drama (at the same time she is having no interesting conversations with anyone, at least none that we've seen). And I think she is stupid to act like she is with the men, esp. Shawn and Nick but also all the making out with ones she doesn't seem interested in. Also stupid, imo? Sleeping with anyone while you're still on the show. It's kind of like having sex with someone at work (or several people at work). Just not a good idea, imo.

 

But all of that pales compared to how I feel about the producers. Playing those sounds of her with Nick was so inexcusable imo, so done with one purpose: to embarrass and humiliate her (not, I think, more innocently to just stir up controversy). Then CH delivers his "scolding", changes the schedule using her own phrase for sex "off camera time". I hated the way the producers treated Ashley with that whole "Bentley" edit, but this is so much worse.

 

Maybe I just haven't been following it enough, but I don't feel they've been adequately criticized for doing this either. Even if they think they made a mistake with the lead and her stupid tacky behavior--or, more positively--her free expression of sexuality---threatens to ruin the show by eliciting a massive walkout....there's still no excuse for treating her like they have. That "camera and sound crew at bedroom door" was beyond insulting. (I also wish someone would ask what happened to Nick's VO? Did he say nothing? Or did they just edit him out, focusing instead on Kaitlyn?  It was so rude, I still can't believe it, even from this show.)

[leighdear]

 

I also wish someone would ask what happened to Nick's VO? Did he say nothing? Or did they just edit him out, focusing instead on Kaitlyn?

He probably called her Andi, so they had to cut it out.  

[Padma]

He probably called her Andi, so they had to cut it out.  

lol.

By the way, that little trick of producers to embarrass Kaitlyn -should- inhibit FS dates on all future seasons. I mean, clearly the producers are willing (and able) to record your most intimate moments (who knows how much they listened to, my guess would be "all") and also wiling to put them on television, knowing it will embarrass all involved.

 

You'd think that might inhibit future b/b-ettes, wouldn't you? Except that, half the time, they act like they've never seen the show before.

 

Maybe Ashley onion was right about that mysterious "betting" room. Maybe they're all sitting around betting "first base, second..." while they listen in. After this season, I think they're pretty much capable of it.

[Rhondinella]

Oooh, I forgot about the betting allegations.  I really hope that shows up on an episode of Unreal.

[JenE4]

I'm not surprised that they played the audio of sex sounds. Remember the train whistles and animal noises we were subjected to on the Sean and Catherine wedding special? This was after the "consumation station" live cam countdown on the marital bed for the full episode. Actual footage doesn't even come close to that level of inpropriety and tackiness. That was their WEDDING for christ's sake! And people wonder why Des and Chris didn't have a wedding special. Free wedding isn't worth that humiliation and making a mockery of their marriage.

Edited July 6, 2015 by JenE4

[Andromeda]

So for fun..   if you were the bachette, would you sleep with any of the guys at FS time (or before) ?      If you were final 3 on The Bachelor, how would you handle the FS?  Would you sneak down to his room say,  like Courtney did?

 

It will be so fun to hear different opinions!!  hope to hear some of your thoughts!! .

Oooo, a survey... I wouldn't sleep with any of them. Not because of religion or ethics or morals or any of that. But because I'm a really introverted private person and it would freak me out that all of America (and some of Canada) knew where and when I had sex with anyone. Then again, get enough alcohol in me, who knows? And no Sneaking with Intent to Seduce, either -- not with a cameraman 10 feet away.

OF course, I'd never go on a show like this for all the above reasons, either!

[Mabinogia]

I can say that I would not plan on sleeping with any of them, but I know me, and I know how much I drink when I'm nervous and how nervous I'd be in this situation and how much free alcohol there is laying around and I can't 100% say I wouldn't get caught up in a situation where I'm buzzed and really into a guy and when I drink I do get horny, so while I would not intend to, I can't say it wouldn't happen to me and that I wouldn't feel as guilty about "betraying" my other boyfriends as Kaitlyn is, but I would NOT feel guilty about sleeping with a guy I was attracted to, just grossed out that I did it in national TV. (then again, being an introvert, I would never put myself in that situation to begin with).

[ByTor]

Granted, this is my first time watching any show in this franchise, but I think the change of format makes sense. Would you want to meet the loved ones of someone you were dating without having been intimate with them

Sure I would, I'm not quite sure what one thing has to do with the other. Edited July 9, 2015 by ByTor

[pitchy]

I 100% agree with this post. If there had been footage of previous bachelors and bachelorettes having sex, we would have seen it

 

  We have NOT had footage of that on this season's show either.  Kaitlyn said they did take their mics off.

  That means Chris Harrison gave the go ahead to find another way to capture any sounds that they could out of the next room  He may be 'prim' and 'proper' in his shown guidance, but he is a producer with the taste of a 14 year old.

 

  Re no one earlier having had the CAMERAS on them before going to a room and closing the doors behind them, we DID see this -- and that was Chris Soules with Britt.  Their 2-hour 'nap' time.  They smiled as they closed the doors as the cameras filmed the doors closing.

 

  That was all left to  the viewers.  Chris Harrison had not yet devolved back into a stupid adolescent.

[pitchy]

[Alison"] Granted, this is my first time watching any show in this franchise, but I think the change of format makes sense. Would you want to meet the loved ones of someone you were dating without having been intimate with them

Sure I would, I'm not quite sure what one thing has to do with the other.

 

I think Alison meant something like "Would you want to meet the loved ones of someone you were dating WHEN very seriously trying to "decide" whether to marry him or another 'contender' without having been intimate with him?"

 

   At this point, I'd never commit to marriage or even give serious consideration to marriage without having been 'with' the person, as that is a crucial part of your everyday or everynight life and the source of your comfort and support (not to mention a bit of 'joy' :-) ).

 

  But, with the show's premise of 'considering FOUR bachelors for hometowns, normally, no, I would not have to sleep with any except  the ones I was seriously trying to decide between.

 

  As I've said before, I actually might want to do that before deciding which two final ones get the fantasy suite date, IF I was crazy about both of them.  I was active in the 70s when things were already much looser.