Race & Ethnicity On TV

[ouinason]

I honestly don't see that character that way at all.  

Also, the black matriarch type character is probably the best character of the entire series.

[Neurochick]

4 hours ago, ouinason said:

I honestly don't see that character that way at all.  

Also, the black matriarch type character is probably the best character of the entire series.

I'm watching it now.  Bridgerton.  I'm loving it. 

I'm also loving Queen Charlotte.  At first I thought it was Mya Rudolph playing her. 

Some people seem to have issues with the casting, but I think those people might have issues with their bigotry.  I mean it's like when it come to black folks, people have no imagination. 

21 hours ago, ursula said:

The new

  Reveal spoiler

Bridgerton

series has continued the grand tradition of shows like Twisted and Tiny Pretty Things where Black women are built up so that they can be torn down. 😒

I'm confused.  What character are you talking about?

[DearEvette]

As someone on the Bridgerton board posted and interview with the showrunner with New York Times, the show exists in a somewhat alternate universe where Queen Charlotte's oft speculated African ancestry is made fact in this show and is acknowledged.  So the history of black folks in nobility and the peerage is different here.  They are basically part of that society because of her.

I had read the books so long ago that I thought Marina's (the young black cousin of the Featheringtons who takes the ton by storm) storyline was made up for the show.  And it kind of is and isn't.  She is a character we only hear about in a later book.  So it seems like this production is giving the character a persona and back history.  Her story line is a tried and true staple in regency romances.  So I am not too mad at it.  I am only a few eps in and haven't seen it completely play out but I am a little spoilered so I know how it ends up and it makes sense given who the character is supposed to be in the books.

Meanwhile I am loving Lady Danbury!

Edited December 26, 2020 by DearEvette

[OtterMommy]

Please remember to use the spoiler tags when refencing plots in shows.  Thanks!

[ursula]

35 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

Her story line is a tried and true staple in regency romances.  So I am not too mad at it.

They cast the only POC debutante (or whatever the Regency equivalent is supposed to be) in that role. That’s the problem, especially as you pointed out - her entire storyline was invented for this show. They made all these decisions to repeat the trope of building up a Black woman as desirable so that she can be torn down via Trauma Congo to prop up mediocre white women. The fact that she’s supposed to be a character

Spoiler

who loses in every way in the books - loveless marriage, mental health struggles, death, so that

her husband can have happiness with a white woman is just doubly sickening.
 

 

35 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

loving Lady Danbury!

She’s incredible but she’s also a cross between a Sassy Black Woman, and Mammy and Magical Negro so it’s not groundbreaking that she’s a favourite. At least her protégée is a Black man (and the White girl he’s paired with).

Edited December 26, 2020 by ursula

[ouinason]

I wasn't fond of the Queen Charlotte casting until I realized what they were doing with the show and then it made sense.  I don't mind any fictional person being any race under the sun, but I do wish for real people to be cast accurately.  I want Middle Eastern Jesus, African American Malcolm X and actually Mongolian Kublai Khan.

Like I said though, they are using a rumor about a person and creating an alternate world where that is established fact, and that works quite well here.

[Neurochick]

3 hours ago, ursula said:

She’s incredible but she’s also a cross between a Sassy Black Woman, and Mammy and Magical Negro so it’s not groundbreaking that she’s a favourite. At least her protégée is a Black man (and the White girl he’s paired with).

So, in your opinion, that character shouldn't have been in the show?   She's a "Sassy Black Woman/Mammy/Magical Negro" all rolled up into one? 

The only issue I had with that character was she didn't have any backstory.  We never knew if she'd been married, if she had children, nothing.  She was just there. 

 

[UnoAgain]

5 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

So, in your opinion, that character shouldn't have been in the show?   She's a "Sassy Black Woman/Mammy/Magical Negro" all rolled up into one? 

The only issue I had with that character was she didn't have any backstory.  We never knew if she'd been married, if she had children, nothing.  She was just there. 

 

Yeah we coulda used some story about her... And she did I guess fill those roles... She just did it so well I guess it didn't bother me on viewing.. But I did catch myself wondering about Lord Danbury... Also if their isn't an heir I wonder does Simon get all that as well? 

[ursula]

1 hour ago, Neurochick said:

So, in your opinion, that character shouldn't have been in the show?   She's a "Sassy Black Woman/Mammy/Magical Negro" all rolled up into one? 

 

 

My point about Lady Danbury is that of course, she’s liked. I liked her too, but with the awareness that her popularity with white audiences is due to her fitting the box of what has been ‘acceptable’ for Black women in white media for decades.  
 

Quote

The only issue I had with that character was she didn't have any backstory.  We never knew if she'd been married, if she had children, nothing.  She was just there. 

 

You basically answered your own question. Her own interiority  could have been fleshed out more. Tropes aren’t inherently good or bad until they become the only way certain characters are ever seen in media.

Which is my issue with Marina. She’s the only Black debutante in this show and she gets written in a storyline that has become stereotypical of Black female characters.

Edited December 27, 2020 by ursula

[UnoAgain]

14 minutes ago, ursula said:

she gets written in a storyline that has become stereotypical of Black female characters.

Screwed over by a privileged white girl who goes on to face no consequences for her actions and is actually defended in some parts of fandom as a victim herself.... Yeah

[ouinason]

Lady Danbury is a widow, indicated by her name.  That's all we know about her in the book that this show is based on either.  She's exactly the same character, regardless of race, in both mediums.  I appreciate that.  

 

She's an interesting character and I hope they use her as much in the further seasons of the show as she was in the further books.  The book character has more details revealed about her later on.

 

She's not related to Simon, she was his mother's closest friend.

Edited December 27, 2020 by ouinason

[ursula]

1 hour ago, ouinason said:

Lady Danbury is a widow, indicated by her name.  That's all we know about her in the book that this show is based on either.  She's exactly the same character, regardless of race, in both mediums.  I appreciate that.  

What we need to appreciate is that context is important.  Lady D being a tropey white character in a sea of other faceted white characters is different from her being a stereotype that Black women have been playing for as long as white people wrote stories about Black women. 

Marina also ends up

Spoiler

dead

in the books but it reads differently when she’s just one of many white debutantes in the story as opposed to the only debutante of Color. 10 to 1, no one would be half as bothered by her storyline if she were another White girl.

Spoiler

Lady W would still be a 2-faced snake regardless of Color (or size) for that matter but I think less people would rush to Penelope’s defence if the girl she screwed over was White. Just as I’m sure Daphne’s sexual assault of Simon is more ‘acceptable’ because she’s White and he’s Black.

It might not matter (as much) in the story but it definitely influences and is influenced by the real world we live in.

Again context. That’s  the difference between Color blind and Color conscious casting.

Edited December 28, 2020 by ursula

[ouinason]

I get where you are coming from, but it would be insulting to a lot of people if they changed the characterization of one of the most beloved characters in the franchise because she was cast to TV as a black woman.  That is why I appreciate that they didn't do that.  They stayed absolutely true to the character.

OK, she was actually a lot nicer.  I have to be honest, she was mean in the first few books.

I'm personally interested in seeing if the color conscious casting carries into the future seasons of the show, and I want to know about the various POC that were seen at the balls.  There were some lovely young ladies there and I want them to be fleshed out.

Edited December 28, 2020 by ouinason

[Katsullivan]

1 hour ago, ouinason said:

I get where you are coming from, but it would be insulting to a lot of people if they changed the characterization of one of the most beloved characters in the franchise because she was cast to TV as a black woman.  That is why I appreciate that they didn't do that.  They stayed absolutely true to the character.

Why would they have to change her character to flesh her out. She won't be a different character if we got more of her backstory. People demanding that race-bent characters be elevated from flat stereotypes isn't unreasonable. This seems like such a weird thing to kick against.

 

[methodwriter85]

On 12/25/2020 at 7:15 PM, ursula said:

series has continued the grand tradition of shows like Twisted and Tiny Pretty Things where Black women are built up so that they can be torn down. 😒

Let's pour one out for Abby on Sleepy Hollow. Jesus Christ.

Don't forget the Roswell New Mexico reboot, which prided itself on making Liz Latina like she is in the books yet basically sidelined her character so the show creator could make it into live-action yaoi with Malex. 

I'm going to wait and see what the Gossip Girl reboot looks like, because right now it's patting itself on the back for having more than just one POC on the Main Cast but it could very well wind up like a Riverdale situation, which continually casts black female characters for background color but never actually writes for them. (Veronica is the only POC that gets any kind of consistent amount of storylines.) 

Some yay diversity? I rather enjoyed Dash and Lily. 

[Neurochick]

11 hours ago, ouinason said:

I get where you are coming from, but it would be insulting to a lot of people if they changed the characterization of one of the most beloved characters in the franchise because she was cast to TV as a black woman.  That is why I appreciate that they didn't do that.  They stayed absolutely true to the character.

OK, she was actually a lot nicer.  I have to be honest, she was mean in the first few books.

I'm personally interested in seeing if the color conscious casting carries into the future seasons of the show, and I want to know about the various POC that were seen at the balls.  There were some lovely young ladies there and I want them to be fleshed out.

I think this is a very interesting dilemia.  Do you change the history of a character, or create a backstory because the character on the screen is a POC?  If that's the case, what's the point of having POC in the show at all?  Just stay true to the books and have everybody be white, so as not to make anybody uncomfortable?  I'm not sure if that's better either.

What I did notice about the show was its colorism that might have been intentional.  Though there were plenty of brown skinned debutantes and brown skinned women extras on the show, the only ones who had speaking parts were either lighter skinned or had "mixed" features  Marina, the wife of Simon's friend, the boxer, Lady D, even one of the "Mamas" who had something to say about Lady Featherstone.  Maybe I'm crazy but that's just my two cents.

[UnoAgain]

10 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

was its colorism that might have been intention

I assumed it was.. Tho like a few other things it wasn't actually explained... But I just head cannoned that because the queen was mixed that those like her were the first to be moved up.. But the racial dynamics were odd to begin with... Lady Danbury said they lived apart until the queen... So Im not totally sure if black Britain had its own power structure that got folded in or what... One of the many things they may wanna dig into in following seasons.. Before this just turns Into a bunch if diverse window dressing

[DearEvette]

I finally finished the show and agree with a lot of what is said here.

The Marina character was very interesting.  On the one hand, she had one of the better story lines.  In my opinion it had weight and depth some suspense and lots of angst.  And she had a great screen partner in Polly Walker as Mrs. Featherington.  Honestly Mrs F had more meaningful interactions with Marina than she had with her daughters.  And yet, on the other hand, I completely understand the dismay with the one black debutante being given the role as the pregnant outcast.  It too has a weight that transcends the show.  So I am of two minds.

Regards Lady Danbury, now in this case I think the show did right by her.  In fact I think by making her primarily Simon's support system and advocate, they gave her a nuance in the show she didn't have in the books, where she was, iirc, much older and even though she was friends with his mother she wasn't as involved in his life as she was here.

I also like that we got something else not in the books, a look at a stable, loving black family with the boxer, Mondrich  and his wife Alice.  Even though they only had smallish parts they made a fair enough impact, imo.  I would say that Mondrich had as much if not more character development than Colin and a fair number of other "main" characters.  I especially liked his wife.  This couple simply doesn't exist in any historical romance novel and most especially not in a Julia Quinn novel.

[Trini]

At LA Times: 'Ava DuVernay and Peter Roth have a plan to diversify crews. And Hollywood is on board'

Quote

Through Array Alliance, the nonprofit arm of her company Array, DuVernay and her team have assembled a database of below-the-line talent designed to bridge the hiring gap for women and people of color in the entertainment industry. And with Roth’s help securing studio competitors such as Sony, Netflix and Disney, to sign onto and invest in the project, Array Crew is positioned to be a resource for executives and hiring managers throughout Hollywood amid the ongoing push for more inclusive crews.

Already in a soft launch stage, the searchable database so far features 2,500 profiles, which can be sorted by crew position, experience, location and more — think IMDb meets LinkedIn. The database is free to qualifying talent, who must have at least one verified credit. While the purpose of the database is to make it easier to find qualified women and people of color for crew positions, it’s open to everyone. It’s focused on U.S.-based talent, but there are plans to expand it to include the U.K. and Canada next year.

It marks one of Roth’s last initiatives as chairman of Warner Bros. Television Group. ....

It's a joint interview.

[UnoAgain]

34 minutes ago, Trini said:

At LA Times: 'Ava DuVernay and Peter Roth have a plan to diversify crews. And Hollywood is on board'

It's a joint interview.

Seems a good step... Creating the pipeline builds a foundation if its used properly and not cynically.. Hope for its success and expansion 

[Danny Franks]

On 12/11/2020 at 3:59 AM, xaxat said:

I am so looking forward to this. The original comic run of Ms. Marvel was great.

 

 

I recently read the first TPB and thought the story was great. Kamala immediately springs to life as a vivid, fun character. I like the rest of her family, even if they're all a bit too on-the-nose as archetypes. The art though? That was more than a little funky. I've enjoyed Alphona's work before, on Runaways, but he just seemed to be going for something a little too weird with this one.

I'm excited to see how it all transitions to the MCU, particularly Kamala's powers, which work on the page but will look very odd on screen.

Edited December 30, 2020 by Danny Franks

[UnoAgain]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

I'm excited to see how it all transitions to the MCU, particularly Kamala's powers, which work on the page but will look very odd on screen.

Yeah even playing avengers on my ps4 was low key creepy.. Seeing enlarged limbs just bouncing around sounds like nightmare fuel.. But I'll wait for the finished product 

[phoenics]

On 12/26/2020 at 6:09 PM, ursula said:

They cast the only POC debutante (or whatever the Regency equivalent is supposed to be) in that role. That’s the problem, especially as you pointed out - her entire storyline was invented for this show. They made all these decisions to repeat the trope of building up a Black woman as desirable so that she can be torn down via Trauma Congo to prop up mediocre white women. The fact that she’s supposed to be a character

  Reveal spoiler

who loses in every way in the books - loveless marriage, mental health struggles, death, so that

her husband can have happiness with a white woman is just doubly sickening.
 

 

She’s incredible but she’s also a cross between a Sassy Black Woman, and Mammy and Magical Negro so it’s not groundbreaking that she’s a favourite. At least her protégée is a Black man (and the White girl he’s paired with).

Damn - are you serious with how it turns out?  Damn!  Now I'm even more angry than I was.  Of COURSE that's who they race bent.  OF COURSE.

I expected more from Shonda Rhymes but I don't know why - she's had problematic plots before.  I still haven't forgiven her for how she did Stephanie in the Jackson/Stephanie relationship, and using a much beloved A Different World (like the blackest show ever) plot line to screw her over.  How dare she.  How DARE she.

So now I don't hold out much hope at all for Bridgerton and I really was hoping they would make things right.

[angora]

16 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

I recently read the first TPB and thought the story was great. Kamala immediately springs to life as a vivid, fun character. I like the rest of her family, even if they're all a bit too on-the-nose as archetypes. The art though? That was more than a little funky. I've enjoyed Alphona's work before, on Runaways, but he just seemed to be going for something a little too weird with this one.

I love Ms. Marvel. I agree that her family is fairly archetypal in the first volume, but I think they quickly gain more depth and nuance. I especially enjoy what they've done with her brother Aamir. I like how her friend group has rounded out as well, and I appreciate the occasional scenes she shares with Sheikh Abdullah. So pumped for this show!

[memememe76]

Last night’s episode of This Is Us focused on the relationship between an African American woman and Vietnamese man. They are not regulars but were the focal point of the show. And their relationship was portrayed in that epic romantic sweep that the show does for their other couples (for good or bad). I loved those two characters. 

[ouinason]

I think that they should have diversity in casting for Superman and Lois in general.  I don't think that doing so with the Kent family itself would be the best place to do that.

[Blergh]

29 minutes ago, ouinason said:

I think that they should have diversity in casting for Superman and Lois in general.  I don't think that doing so with the Kent family itself would be the best place to do that.

If Clark was supposed to have been the Kents' bio son, I would agree but let's not forget that they made sure that all their Smallville neighbors knew they'd adopted him in the original story. Hence, there's no reason for them not to be of different backgrounds from him (or each other) in any contemporary one- even if no one else is supposed to know he's from another planet! 

[ouinason]

26 minutes ago, Blergh said:

If Clark was supposed to have been the Kents' bio son, I would agree but let's not forget that they made sure that all their Smallville neighbors knew they'd adopted him in the original story. Hence, there's no reason for them not to be of different backgrounds from him (or each other) in any contemporary one- even if no one else is supposed to know he's from another planet! 

You know... you're right.  I guess I got stuck on the idea that small town Kansas 30+ years ago would not have been a place where an interracial couple or a family of color would have been able to adopt a white baby/toddler without getting serious side eye and blowback, but if they made that part of the family's struggle, and of Clark's struggle to not stand out, to fly under the radar, then I think it might actually be good story.

 

I don't think, however, this is a place where colorblind casting is appropriate, for those same reasons.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Well, Smallville  cast Sam Jones III, an African American actor to play Pete Ross, who was/is White in the comics; Lana was played by Kristen Kreuk, who is half Asian.

The fact that the creators and show runners, all of them, were hacks and assholes, and failed to make the most of opportunities presented, is another kettle of fish altogether. Like the whole LANALANALANALANALANAAAAAAAAAA thing.*
 

*4EVAHBITTER.

[Lugal]

I think part of the problem is that Hollywood has been shying away from original stories for years, instead preferring a "built in audience" which unfortunately gives way to old stories that were, shall we say, less diverse.

Even though Kansas is like 80% White, if they do their legwork, they could change the ethnicity of the characters.  They could cast Ma and Pa Kent as Native people up from Oklahoma.  They could cast them as Black and explain that they are descended from Exodusters. Or they could cast Martha as Asian and make Jonathan Kent a Vietnam Veteran and Martha's his Vietnamese wife.

But those changes necessitate changes to the story as well.  I think of Elementary where they cast Lucy Liu as Watson.  They actually delved into Watson's Chinese-American heritage and used it to power stories which was awesome.  To just cast colorblind and then ignore it would not go over well.  The story of a Black family raising a white adopted baby could be an interesting one, even a Black family raising a white baby with superpowers.  But is that the Superman story they want to tell?

[BlackberryJam]

6 minutes ago, Lugal said:

  The story of a Black family raising a white adopted baby could be an interesting one, even a Black family raising a white baby with superpowers.  But is that the Superman story they want to tell?

I have no idea why anyone wants another version of any comic book story, but adding in interesting stories about race and gender would definitely be an improvement over the same old same old. 

[UnoAgain]

5 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

I have no idea why anyone wants another version of any comic book story, but adding in interesting stories about race and gender would definitely be an improvement over the same old same old. 

You'd think so.. But to hear the( very vocal.. And I'm not sure how small/large)  fanbase... Adding all that "unnecessary PC woke agenda pushing stuff etc" ruins the shows and turns away viewers who don't wanna hear or see that stuff... Which on its face is them admitting to preferring tv to be how it was.. But to explain that to some of them just devolves into the good ol " I'm not racist even tho no one is saying I am.. But I'd like to derail any further convo... So I'm not a racist" ploy

[Guest]

The title of the article I linked is only a small part of the criticism about Superman & Lois. Here’s her initial tweet and the reason for the backlash. 
 

[Raja]

21 minutes ago, Lugal said:

 Or they could cast Martha as Asian and make Jonathan Kent a Vietnam Veteran and Martha's his Vietnamese wife.

 

Given the continued basing of troops in Korea when 30 years ago Kent would have been a decade out from Vietnam troopers returning to Kansas then were more likely to have a Korean wife than a German one. And we had many times more troops in West Germany for a longer tour of duty than those who served in South Korea

[UnoAgain]

17 minutes ago, Dani said:

Go woke, go broke” has been continually disproven in the box office. Success or failure is more about the quality of the movie. 

  39

Also.. Detractors pretty much call anything with some kind of minority POV.. Or minority centered show/movie / storyline.. Hell even just more than a few minority characters...  WOKE

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, Lugal said:

I think part of the problem is that Hollywood has been shying away from original stories for years, instead preferring a "built in audience" which unfortunately gives way to old stories that were, shall we say, less diverse.

Even though Kansas is like 80% White, if they do their legwork, they could change the ethnicity of the characters.  They could cast Ma and Pa Kent as Native people up from Oklahoma.  They could cast them as Black and explain that they are descended from Exodusters. Or they could cast Martha as Asian and make Jonathan Kent a Vietnam Veteran and Martha's his Vietnamese wife.

But those changes necessitate changes to the story as well.  I think of Elementary where they cast Lucy Liu as Watson.  They actually delved into Watson's Chinese-American heritage and used it to power stories which was awesome.  To just cast colorblind and then ignore it would not go over well.  The story of a Black family raising a white adopted baby could be an interesting one, even a Black family raising a white baby with superpowers.  But is that the Superman story they want to tell?

That's what they need to do. Not just add diversity and minorities to throw in but also do something with them. Watson is a great example. Joan's Chinese-American heritage came up as often as it should. Given Sherlock tea with herbs that her mother used to make when she was sick, mentioning she doesn't speak Chinese as much as her mother would like, and after her biological father died took food and things to the cemetary as was tradition.  It was great to see. Her heritage was part of who she was and you saw that. Similarly on Netflix when they changed a couple characters. One of them Mary Anne was now biracial but also used to explain why her hair was always in braids. It was the only thing his wife taught him to do before she died when Mary Anne was very young. They had scene when Mary Anne's babysitting a little girl and learns she's transgender. Mary Anne is surprised but doesn't say anything and continues babysitting. Later she's talking with Dawn who's they changed to Latinx about Bailey being a transgender and it just felt really natural. Two twelve year old girls talking about it. No speeches or anything. Just talking. Dawn explains it to Mary Anne in away that makes sense but without coming off like on a soap box. Diversity characters need to be still treated like characters. Like people with interests, likes, dislikes and personality being African-American, Chinese-American, etc part of their identity. Shows very often will cast an minority then do nothing with them and act like it counts as having a diverse cast. Ah, no give them personality, interests, background and storylines. Make them part of the story. Its really not that hard to do. 

[Trini]

2 hours ago, UnoAgain said:

 

Also.. Detractors pretty much call anything with some kind of minority POV.. Or minority centered show/movie / storyline.. Hell even just more than a few minority characters...  WOKE

It's both hilarious and annoying how much the term gets misused.

Anyway, if anyone wants to hear more about the Superman & Lois situation from the fired writer's perspective, she did a few interviews:

https://jonitaldavis.medium.com/writer-nadria-tucker-on-superman-and-lois-the-show-has-diversity-problems-on-and-off-screen-e70466f71c81

https://thegeekiary.com/former-superman-and-lois-producer-nadria-tucker-shares-her-story/88987

https://www.thevulcanreporter.com/interviews/nadria-tucker-superman-lois/

https://shadowandact.com/superman-and-lois-writer-says-she-was-dropped-from-series-after-raising-concerns

[DearEvette]

56 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

That's what they need to do. Not just add diversity and minorities to throw in but also do something with them....shows very often will cast an minority then do nothing with them and act like it counts as having a diverse cast. Ah, no give them personality, interests, background and storylines. Make them part of the story. Its really not that hard to do. 

This is why I love how Ava Duvernay makes the distinction between her usage of  diversity and inclusion.  Sure you can have a diverse cast but if everyone but the white characters are nothing but background wallpaper, you can check your diversity box but the show is still ultimately a fail. But inclusion means their life, story and self are included in the fabric of the storytelling as well.

1 hour ago, andromeda331 said:

Similarly on Netflix when they changed a couple characters. One of them Mary Anne was now biracial but also used to explain why her hair was always in braids. It was the only thing his wife taught him to do before she died when Mary Anne was very young. They had scene when Mary Anne's babysitting a little girl and learns she's transgender. Mary Anne is surprised but doesn't say anything and continues babysitting. Later she's talking with Dawn who's they changed to Latinx about Bailey being a transgender and it just felt really natural. Two twelve year old girls talking about it. No speeches or anything. Just talking. Dawn explains it to Mary Anne in away that makes sense but without coming off like on a soap box.

And the sad thing is, even though two marginalized characters may simply be talking to each other about an issue, some people will not see it that way.  They will complain about a "woke agenda" being shoved down their throats.

Meanwhile characters in tv shows talking about/dealing with social issues isn't new at all.  I mean, Julia Sugarbaker just about had a speech in every show in Designing women.  All the Norman Lear sitcoms  would showcase issues of their day with Mike practically lecturing Archie about something in every episode.  And even some other more frothy sitcoms like Alice, Facts of Life, It's A Living, Who's The Boss etc. all had messages.  And every drama had a Very Special Episode at least once a year.  LOL.

[possibilities]

There's plenty of stuff to watch that isn't "woke" if that's what someone wants to see. I personally like representation and what gets snarked on by being called "woke" so I'm glad when it's available. 

It sounds like Superman and Lois was actively resisting anything resembling wokeness, if what Nadria Tucker says went on, and I find that depressing.

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, possibilities said:

There's plenty of stuff to watch that isn't "woke" if that's what someone wants to see. I personally like representation and what gets snarked on by being called "woke" so I'm glad when it's available. 

It sounds like Superman and Lois was actively resisting anything resembling wokeness, if what Nadria Tucker says went on, and I find that depressing.

Same here. I don't even really see it as woke. I just really like seeing characters of different ethnicities, faiths, sexualities, and backgrounds. 

[Trini]

Cross posting from the movies social issues topic:

On 10/9/2020 at 12:34 AM, Trini said:

At Deadline, 'New Study Finds Hollywood Studios Could Lose Money From Movies That Lack Diversity'

 

Read the study findings directly here: https://www.scholarsandstorytellers.com/research-reports

 

[Blergh]

I, for one, would be intrigued if someone produced a Superman/Superboy depiction with the title character played by a performer of  a different ethnicity than either   one or both of his adoptive parents and/or his peers. Hello, the character is from an entirely different planet than ours so why not have the performer be of a differing ethnicity and have that be reflected in the issues our title hero would have had to deal with! 

Edited January 24, 2021 by Blergh

[Irlandesa]

Every show and movie is a study of race, gender and sexuality whether we actively think about it or not.  For years most works of visual fiction have largely centered around a straight, white and majority male POV because straight, white males were in charge of giving money to people who looked like them to create things to be marketed to what they thought people wanted to see...i.e. usually things they wanted to see. 

So to declare a moratorium on changing gender, sexuality or race of things previously created would just perpetuate the past conditions where it was dictated that the characters be straight and white (and possibly male depending on the kind of role the character was supposed to play).  It's certainly not like many original creators didn't want to push the boundaries, especially when it came to sexuality, but were often met with resistance.

Anyway, that all became so normalized in a viewer's psyche that it's not something most of notice until we do.  And once we do, it's not really easy to unsee.  I'm watching a TV show now where the only two female characters are either 1) dead for the tortured lead to talk to or 2) technically be a competent co-worker (albeit subordinate) but we see her mostly taking care of his dog, taking care of him when he's sick or eventually hopping into his bed and

Spoiler

then giving him another reason to be tortured

.  I still enjoy the show but damn that stands out.  But twenty years ago? I probably wouldn't have noticed that television trend where we're more likely to see a man working at his job than a woman.

People might be more cognizant of gender, sexuality and race when something deviates from the previous "norm" but I don't think it necessarily makes it more about gender, race or sexuality. It just shades the story in a different way which can sometimes justify a retelling of a story told 100 times before.

Edited January 24, 2021 by Irlandesa

[angora]

7 hours ago, Blergh said:

I, for one, would be intrigued if someone produced a Superman/Superboy depiction with the title character played by a performer of  a different ethnicity than either   one or both of his adoptive parents and/or his peers. Hello, the character is from an entirely different planet than ours so why not have the performer be of a differing ethnicity and have that be reflected in the issues our title hero would have had to deal with! 

Comic book writer/artist Gene Luen Yang, who created the comic book adaptation Superman Smashes the Klan from a 1940s radio-play storyline, talks about how much he connects with Superman in this interview:

Quote

“I think of Superman as an immigrant story fundamentally and I think it’s rooted in the Jewish-American experience,” says Yang, noting that the superhero’s creators, Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster, were themselves the sons of Jewish immigrants. “That resonated with me as an Asian American.”

“Like Superman, I have two different names. I have a Chinese name that I used to use at home and an English name that I would use at school. I spoke two different languages. I even wore two different sets of clothes sometimes, especially around Chinese holidays,” he says. “All of that felt very familiar.”

@Irlandesa, ITA with what you said about every story being a study of race/gender/sexuality/ability. It's just that we've been trained for so long to see straight/white/male/able-bodied as "default" that many people think of that character identity as "neutral" and other character identities as "making a statement" or "pushing an agenda." And the thing is, this has been so ingrained that I think it often barely registers to the so-called target demo when the lead is a straight white able-bodied male - it only stands out when they're NOT. Like, a white guy didn't look up at Chris Evans onscreen in The Fantastic Four and exclaim, "Johnny Storm is white like me!" It was only when Michael B. Jordan was cast in the reboot that white male fans defended the apparently-integral nature of Johnny Storm's whiteness (no, the reboot wasn't a good movie, but 1) that wasn't Jordan's fault and 2) it's not like the first one was any prize either. )

But when your own identity exists outside the "default," seeing characters who look like you resonates SO MUCH. I recently started listening to this Harry Potter podcast hosted by two Black women, and I recently listened to the episode where they've just heard the news that the adult Hermione in the play Harry Potter and the Cursed Child will be played by a Black actress. They spend about the first 20 minutes of the episode GUSHING about Black Hermione, just dealing with the enormity of their feelings at this news. For me, as a white woman, I have a lot more character options out there than BIPOC fans, but I still cried in the theater when I saw the No Man's Land scene in the first Wonder Woman and I felt INVINCIBLE the day I found out Jodie Whittaker was cast as the Doctor. (Also, as an asexual, I can tell you everything there is to know about every asexual character I've ever encountered in any medium, including those who seem like they might be asexual but haven't been confirmed as such.)

Edited January 24, 2021 by angora

[Joimiaroxeu]

1 hour ago, biakbiak said:

Sam kinson’s racist ass “humor” who assumes elevating his voice will eventually create a punchline is what is problematic. He not only didn’t understand humor, he didn’t understand a lot of the  the reasons for world wide hunger. As many people have stated Kinson stole a ton from Bill Hicks from jokes, cadence, a drug habit and outrage but never his actual point or his smarts. 

Also, it legit doesn’t apply to comics because they were literally created by outside voices from other places trying to create a platform. 

Not here to defend Sam Kinison and I don't think comedians are the issue here. (Because if so, let's talk about Dave Chappelle.) The mindset of victims being responsible for their own problems and having to find their own solutions because White, straight men aren't out here trying to save everybody is, IMO. It's that certain type of race or sexuality-based privilege that's utterly lacking in empathy or willingness to get out the way and let others solve the problem(s) if they won't. Especially if they are a large part of the problem(s), or aren't even capable of recognizing issues exist which are harmful to anyone who isn't a White, straight male.

Quote

The f words aren’t the problem.

For some people they are, and in particular they may be a problem at work. The NSFW warning was for those people.

Edited January 24, 2021 by Joimiaroxeu

[ursula]

This was a good video. 

[UnoAgain]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

This was a good video. 

Damn I remember how them light skin memes got under my skin when I was younger..  Great video tho... That Adam from workaholics one tho... Smh.. Unfortunately so many of my cousins make it true.. 

[janie jones]

4 hours ago, ursula said:

This was a good video. 

One thing I was surprised she left out when she was talking about colorism, didn't Simon have a dark-skinned butler? Maybe I'm misremembering, but it stood out to me.

[topanga]

On 1/26/2021 at 6:31 PM, janie jones said:

One thing I was surprised she left out when she was talking about colorism, didn't Simon have a dark-skinned butler? Maybe I'm misremembering, but it stood out to me.

I don't remember the butler, but Simon's (evil) father had brown skin, and his (dead) mother was also brown-skinned. And Lady Danbury was brown-skinned, although she was one of the few female characters on the show who didn't have a partner and never talked about ever having a partner. Does that mean she was asexual? *sarcasm*

[Trini]

I wasn't interested in Trickster because of it's supernatural themes, but I was aware that it was one of the few shows centered on indigenous characters. (It's a Canadian show that's now airing on CW.)

The news is that the second season has been cancelled after some controversy that one of the producers does not have indigenous heritage, as she claimed. (That seems unresolved as far as I can tell, but I haven't looked into it.)

https://www.thestar.com/entertainment/television/2021/01/29/cbc-will-not-move-ahead-with-season-2-of-trickster.html

https://variety.com/2021/tv/global/trickster-canceled-cbc-michelle-latimer-1234895893/

Edited February 2, 2021 by Trini
spelling - d'oh!