S05.E08: Hardhome

[LisaBLingLing]

Something I thought I saw at the end of the episode - a spark of recognition between the Night's King,13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and possible Stark, and Jon Snow, current Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and supposed Stark.  I certainly think the Night's King knows exactly who Jon Snow is, but something on the face of Jon made me think he had some Harry/Voldemort mind share magic going on.  Just me?   

[nksarmi]

You're right we have no guarantee, however, I don't think people are wrong to speculate that he might survive. GRRM has given just as many last minute saves as he has surprise deaths. The Manderlys beheaded Davos, and put his head on the walls! Oh wait! That was just some criminal that looked like him. Arya lost consciousness outside the Red Wedding, oh no! Turns out, the Hound knocked her out with an ax. Bran and Rickon were burnt and hung from the walls of Winterfell, but it was only "just" the Miller's Boys (thanks a lot Theon!). Jon Con was supposed to have died of drink, and according to him, Aegon isn't dead either. Even Cat is not as dead as she seemed. Same with FrankenGregor. 

 

Book readers speculate wildly that Syrio is alive or Rhaegar is alive or so and so is alive, and we speculate so much that it's gotten a bit out of hand, but is it really that crazy for us to do so when GRRM has taken characters back from the hands of death so many times?

I think it's more than just speculation with Jon.  I can't think of another time when GRRM killed someone and left it as a cliffhanger.  Even in the cases mentioned here, things were revealed rather quickly or we were left to think it went one way only for it to turn out that another fate was true.  But in the case of Jon's chapter, it is by no means perfectly clear that he is even dead - just dying - as the book comes to a close.  Even Dany is in a really bad spot as her chapter closes, but we don't believe she will die at the opening of the next book.  So many things can save Jon in the books, including Mel herself, it's more of an issue of "how" will he survive rather than "if" he will survive.

 

And frankly, if Jon doesn't live, it would be the ultimate example of really bad writing. I'm not saying that because he is one of my favorite characters (though he is), but rather because Jon's parentage has been teased and hinted at for five freaking books.  What would be the point of revealing who his real mother/possibly father was if nothing comes of it? If he's already dead and not coming back? And you simply don't hint at a mystery for five books and drop it if you are a half-way decent writer.  In my opinion, for GRRM to leave Jon dead would not be shocking, it would be bad writing.  I don't know if Jon will survive the whole series, but I do believe he will be back to make it until the end.

 

Plus, I largely suspect that in the books, the description of the "cold" was to indicate that Walkers were nearby.  I think these writers put the battle at Hardhome on the show because a big battle is coming soon in the books.  Jon feeling the Walkers nearby only to have Mel save him and get him back to the Wall to lead that battle would not surprise me at all.

[lucindabelle]

Anybody else think maybe the mad king wasn't so mad?

[screamin]

I agree I think Ned, honorable duty bound Ned, would have executed Theon if commanded to do so, but Theon was not treated *as* a prisoner, he was treated like a lordling, and as Theon noted was accorded more status than Jon because he was legitimate. That was the rub, he was raised by a good noble, respected house, but he was betwixt two worlds, he was raised to be a good ally to the Realm, but he wasn't raised by the Ironborn to lead the Ironborn, and even if Balon was deposed, knowing the Ironborn Theon would still have been a failure. He was neither fully Stark, nor fully Ironborn, and thus betrayed and failed both.

 

In the books the Walk of Shame, doesn't make the regicide right, she still has to undergo trial, and she chooses trial by combat first pinning her hopes on one handed Jamie, and then on headless Gregor. Her contrition just makes her imprisonment less harsh, clothes, food, most importantly visitors, so she confesses to all the sex with the Lancel/Kettleblacks, but denies the murder charges.

 

I agree...in the books all the Walk of Shame gets Cersei is the right to house arrest while waiting for her trial...and IIRC Kevan actually connived to some extent with the High Sparrow to allow it to happen, to humble Cersei because he also felt she was out of control (a decision he regrets later, right before he dies...)

[FemmyV]

 

Book readers speculate wildly that Syrio is alive or Rhaegar is alive or so and so is alive, and we speculate so much that it's gotten a bit out of hand, but is it really that crazy for us to do so when GRRM has taken characters back from the hands of death so many times?

 

I've just assumed that Syrio = Jaqen

 

And I assume neither GRRM nor D & D will kill off a character they've been slowly building into Big Hero Man.

Edited June 3, 2015 by FemmyV

[The Mormegil]

Something I thought I saw at the end of the episode - a spark of recognition between the Night's King,13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and possible Stark, and Jon Snow, current Lord Commander of the Night's Watch and supposed Stark.  I certainly think the Night's King knows exactly who Jon Snow is, but something on the face of Jon made me think he had some Harry/Voldemort mind share magic going on.  Just me?   

 

I'm not sure the Night King of the book and the Night King of the show are meant to be the same character, I think D+D just thought it was a cool name.

[Haleth]

Book readers speculate wildly that Syrio is alive or Rhaegar is alive or so and so is alive, and we speculate so much that it's gotten a bit out of hand, but is it really that crazy for us to do so when GRRM has taken characters back from the hands of death so many times?

 

I've read this is exactly why D&D left out Lady Stoneheart; too many characters coming back from the dead which would lead to a ho-hum reaction to Jon doing it.  This makes sense as long as someone else is picking off Freys, Sansa.

[GreyBunny]

I absolutely disagree with the take that Ned would have easily beheaded Theon for an agreement. The Ned we met was honor-bound but to his own standards not those of others. Theon was raised as a fellow princeling, not as a captive, no matter what retcons GRRM may have put into play. If anything, Theon was MORE conscious of status than the other boys, not less -- MORE arrogant, not less. I absolutely disagree that he would have ever been in real danger from Ned. Sorry.

Ned is definitley honor-bound to others' standards.  If he wasn't he wouldn't have beheaded the Night's Watch deserter who wasn't running away to sip martinis on a beach in Dorne but who was running because he was obviously terrified to the point of madness.  Ned would have shown the man compassion and given him help but because he was bound to the standards of the NW, the North, and all of Westeros, he had to behead him or else he would have been seen as an impotent lord.  Ned is a rules guy to the point of ridiculousness - the rules other people have handed down for millenia - and he felt he was honor-bound to follow those ages-old rules.

 

Theon may have felt like a princeling and raised as a brother, but a prisoner in a gilded cage is still a prisoner.  Ned wouldn't have beheaded Theon easily, but he would have beheaded him. 

Edited June 3, 2015 by GreyBunny

[Holmbo]

Anybody else think maybe the mad king wasn't so mad?

I've been thinking that at times. I'm thinking he seems a bit like Denethor in LoTR which certainly was mad but it was because he was sent all this visions of doom from sauron.

We know Rhaegar knew a lot about prophecies and things that would happen. What if Aerys had gotten some prophecies as well? Like maybe: You will be stabbed to death by someone you trust.

Maybe this is why he was so paranoid of everyone and why he didn't let anyone have sharp objects around him.

Overall I get the vibe that a lot of crazy stuff the Targs did was related to prophecy of the long night and the savior who will wake dragons and all that stuff.

[dr pepper]

The irony for me is that GRRM has been saying that "winter is coming" for YEARS now. It took the show to finally show that winter is here. I don't always love the producers' choices (and suspect every scene in which naked women stand around listlessly since the reports that a "Producer" 'requires those scenes for the pervs in the audience'), especially the past year or so -- but this was spectacular. Well done to all.

 

 

Disagree. In the books we get the arrival of the white raven, followed shortly by snow in King's Landing. Not much show as yet, but since it hadn't snowed there in generations, it was a major event.

[blixie]

 

too many characters coming back from the dead which would lead to a ho-hum reaction to Jon doing it.

 

Uh that would make more sense if they showed ANYONE coming back from the dead other than Beric. And most people probably don't remember shit about how Thros revived him. I mean whatever it's basically magic/literally a wizard did it, but this logic pisses me off because it values "suprises" and "twists" over a well told story that uses fucking foreshadowing and repetition so that people can ANTICIPATE what is going to happen, and then receive the PAY OFF when it actually does. 

 

 

Ned is a rules guy to the point of ridiculousness - the rules other people have handed down for millenia - and he felt he was honor-bound to follow those ages-old rules.

 

I agree and disagree you are describing Stannis, not Ned. Stannis follows the letter of any rule or law and is unbending to any sense of greater moral purpose or compassion. Ned wasn't that guy, he lied to his wife his ENTIRE life about cheating on her, because he honored his promise Lyanna over his bond with Catelyn. He did warn Cersei rather than going straight to Robert and the council to blow her out and have her children pay the price. Ned followed an internal sense of  honor that sometimes overlapped with rules and sometimes broke with them. This personal code of honor was his and Robb's downfall. 

Edited June 3, 2015 by blixie

[lucindabelle]

I've been thinking that at times. I'm thinking he seems a bit like Denethor in LoTR which certainly was mad but it was because he was sent all this visions of doom from sauron.

We know Rhaegar knew a lot about prophecies and things that would happen. What if Aerys had gotten some prophecies as well? Like maybe: You will be stabbed to death by someone you trust.

Maybe this is why he was so paranoid of everyone and why he didn't let anyone have sharp objects around him.

Overall I get the vibe that a lot of crazy stuff the Targs did was related to prophecy of the long night and the savior who will wake dragons and all that stuff.

 

Exactly.

They've been hitting that madness very hard and they keep talking about setting the city on fire.

Fire fights white walkers. Could there be some weird explanation?

Also it seems there's more to that story of him and Lyanna somehow.

[Holmbo]

I wanted to add a comment on the sentiment that the show runners are finally doing Jon's character right. Which I've seen expressed.

I actually really like that they had Jon start as mopey and unsure about things to have him develop into a leader. It feels so much more satisfying and believable when we've seen him make mistakes and learned from them.

[polyhymnia]

I think they've shown Jon progressing from sullen adolescent to man to leader in a fairly realistic way on the show, a few missteps during the Ygritte scenes but overall a good job.  He's not quite as hard on the show as he is in the books by this point, IMO (baby swapping, old man sending-awaying, mean to Sam, etc.).

[bbolto]

I think there are two crucial plot elements that D&D have dropped the ball on this season:

 

1) the chaos of the power-vacuum left by Tywin's death, with Cersei's obsession to grab all of that power; and

 

2) the suffering and death still being experienced by the common people, especially in the Riverlands, because of the War.

 

Both of those are crucial elements in understanding the reemergence of the Faith Militant.

 

Hi - I accidentally clicked on the wrong thread (it's ok, I've been spoiled on and off for years, I don't care, though I try not to seek it out too much) and I wanted to thank you for this post. The way the show treats the Sparrows, it's entirely ENTER STAGE LEFT: NEW ASSHOLES and I have had no idea why they have power and why they don't just get carved to bits by surly knights. This helps.

[magdalene]

I've read this is exactly why D&D left out Lady Stoneheart; too many characters coming back from the dead which would lead to a ho-hum reaction to Jon doing it.  This makes sense as long as someone else is picking off Freys, Sansa.

It makes sense to me for that being the main reason for no Lady SH.  She would lessen the impact of a possible Jon resurrection.

[Avaleigh]

I agree and disagree you are describing Stannis, not Ned. Stannis follows the letter of any rule or law and is unbending to any sense of greater moral purpose or compassion. Ned wasn't that guy, he lied to his wife his ENTIRE life about cheating on her, because he honored his promise Lyanna over his bond with Catelyn.

See, to me this is an example of Ned being rigid with his rules beyond reason. After a reasonably happy marriage, no further evidence of adultery, and multiple children you'd think at some point especially given Cat's treatment of Jon that Ned would feel that he'd be able to trust Catelyn enough to make her understand. His rigid code of rules won't allow it though. He won't even entertain the idea that Lyanna might have understood. He could have made her swear before telling her the entire deal. I don't really see how Cat would have given him any reason to think that he wouldn't be able to trust her with something important like this particularly when I consider how much it would have meant to her to know that Ned had remained faithful during their marriage. 

[maystone]

I have to cut Ned some slack on this one. The only way to absolutely keep something secret is to tell no one. I think all of us believe that R+L = J; keeping Jon's true parentage from Robert is treason. Ned isn't just covering up R's marital infidelity, he's hiding away and raising the true successor to the Iron Throne. I think he believes that he's keeping everyone he loves safe by keeping them in the dark. And besides, Cat is a bit of a hot head. I don't believe for a minute that she could keep that huge a secret without feeling the need to manage things. I think she would have been all over Ned to come clean to Robert out of fear for what the consequences would be to her own children if the truth ever came out.

[Alapaki]

I think both Ned and Stannis are strict adherents to "the rules". The difference, IMO, is that Ned naively believed that everyone else played by the rules too.

[InsertWordHere]

I don't think Ned is that much of a rules guy. A strictly follow the rules guy would arrest Cersei and her children as soon as he found out the truth, he wouldn't warn them to get out of Dodge. He wouldn't believe that sometimes there is honor in a lie. He wouldn't confess to treason to save his daughters. Ned's main motivator isn't following the rules or expecting others to do so, it's doing what is right to protect innocents, even if it personally costs him. If Ned was strictly a rules guy, he probably would have turned himself in when Aerys demanded his head, even if it meant his death. By rising up in rebellion, Ned, Robert, Jon Arryn, and Hoster Tully were breaking the law.

[MadMouse]

See, to me this is an example of Ned being rigid with his rules beyond reason. After a reasonably happy marriage, no further evidence of adultery, and multiple children you'd think at some point especially given Cat's treatment of Jon that Ned would feel that he'd be able to trust Catelyn enough to make her understand. His rigid code of rules won't allow it though. He won't even entertain the idea that Lyanna might have understood. He could have made her swear before telling her the entire deal. I don't really see how Cat would have given him any reason to think that he wouldn't be able to trust her with something important like this particularly when I consider how much it would have meant to her to know that Ned had remained faithful during their marriage. 

"Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust."  

 

"If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he would never know."

 

Those two quotes give you the reasons why Ned never said anything. And also Cat's dislike of Jon was another layer of his shield. If she started treating him equally people would question that.

[Pete Martell]

Theon's situation is much more complicated then just being a hostage who was treated kindly at times. The system of wardship was very common. Noble houses who were prone to conflict often exchanged wards. Like Robert and Ned growing up together and building a bond like brothers, it was done in order to foster and build a better relationship between the houses for the future.

 

Even if Balon Greyjon did rebel or act out against the agreement he had with the Crown, it is very highly unlikely and doubtful that Ned Stark of all people would actually have done anything to Theon. There would have been a few other options as well, they could have tried to crushed the rebellion again (the Ironborn just doesn't have the capacity to hold onto other lands),  and they could just depose of Balon and replaced him with Theon. The idea of Theon being a ward was properly also to cultivate a relationship between Theon and Robb. Previously there was always problems with the Ironborn, if Theon  and Robb had a relationship they could have cultivated a peace or a proper relationship between the North and the Iron Islands for the first time in history. In any event if Balon did actually  rebel whilst his son was in the hands of his "enemies", it would obviously mean that he cared little for the life of his only heir, and there would not have been much of a point to actually kill Theon if his father simply did not care. When you look at the political landscape Theon was actually in a pretty good position. 

 

Basically the "hostage" situation is more complicated then many people give it credit for. Theon creates or worsens his so-called hostage situation is own mind, to excuse and justify his actions. 

 

You have to look between the lines to see how Theon was actually treated by the Starks.  Basically he was treated just like any other normal ward would have been treated. He gets the same training and education as Robb, he really grows up next to Robb. He gets treated or is shown respect for his position as the heir to the Iron Islands. We see this through his reflections. He often reflects that Jon is jealous of him because he is treated with more respect then Jon. For example with feast he was seated on the dais where someone of stature would sit, whereas Jon has to be seated at the furthermost end of the hall with the lower ranking guards. When Catelyn discovers there is a conspiracy to kill Bran after the assassination attempt, she includes Theon into her trust. Theon also reflects that he and Sansa might have gotten married, if things went differently. 

So clearly if you look at how Theon was actually treated, then it would seem like he was treated just like any Ward would have been treated.

 

Theon's problems mainly goes back to his level of maturity, and his ego. He is stuck is in a very patriarchal society, where men have a lot to proof and where he just did not grow up fast enough, he basically acts like a teenager when we meet him at first. His story is tragic one, because perhaps he might have learned a few lessons along the way it there was more time, but the war breaks out and the time for growing up end abruptly. Theon is a bit like a male Sansa at the start, only he was much older and properly should have known better. He listens to peer pressure and craves recognition, which is not dreadful in itself but his timing was bad.  He also suffered from having a terrible father. In the end Theon learned, in the most brutal, possible way. This is a theme that is often touched upon, you might be suffering from being treated unfairly or by not being recognized but things can always go so much worse. Again if you compare Jon and Theon, Jon went to the Nights Watch with a big attitude and he saw himself as being better then the others around him. But unlike Theon he quickly learned that he had to earn respect, and that things isn't always a given because of your position, and even if you have your problems there are others who grew-up much worse then you did.     

Theon saw himself growing up as a victim of the Starks, he realized to late that Winterfell were the only place where he was ever treated like family, and he is the one who destroyed that forever. 

 

I think there are likely differences between how wards are treated based on how the families or people in question. Jon Arryn saw Ned and Robert as sons. I never got the impression that Ned ever saw Theon that way. He was courteous and likely very fair, but he was also all about honor and duty - I think he would have killed Theon to send a statement to the Greyjoys, if need be. Catelyn saw him with great doubt, sure he would betray the family - only Robb felt that wouldn't happen. I never got the impression from the books or the show that anyone but Robb ever had a high opinion of him. The way he thought of Sansa in the books was the way one might think of a daughter of some distant house - he wanted to marry her to show power and superiority, not because of any actual feelings toward Sansa. I don't remember the kids ever having much to say about him in their POV chapters. I guess Bran cared about him, but Bran is meaningless to the show.

 

He should have been loyal to the Starks and he should regret how he betrayed them, but I don't think it should be based out of being a member of the family, because I don't believe he was. And the idea that has popped up this season on the show and in fandom that Sansa was his "sister" or that they were lifelong friends really undercuts the narrative for me, and undercuts just how cold and fractured the Starks were underneath the happy image they presented to the outside world. 

 

I've seen some fans say the show is doing this because they want people to care about Theon, but given that Theon has barely been in this season and his handful of scenes are all about pushing the rape = empowerment narrative with Sansa, I find that difficult to believe. I just see it as corner-cutting writing, which has reduced more and more characters to one-dimensional.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Pete Martell

[Avaleigh]

I think the key area where I disagree is that I think Ned could get Cat to give him her word that she would say nothing and that it would be her burden as much as his if she really wants to know the truth. This didn't have to happen right away. I mean years later after the trust really began to form and they learned to know each other. Plus there was no reason for Robert to find out. She didn't have to treat Jon equally she just didn't have to hate him. She wouldn't have flinched at hearing his name and she probably would have felt pity for him. It isn't unheard of for people to feel pity for bastards. 

[FemmyV]

And besides, Cat is a bit of a hot head. I don't believe for a minute that she could keep that huge a secret without feeling the need to manage things. I think she would have been all over Ned to come clean to Robert out of fear for what the consequences would be to her own children if the truth ever came out.

I think she'd have gone beyond that, even, and spilled the beans herself. Cat started the war of 5 Kings, when you get down to it. Even if she'd have somehow managed to keep it quiet while Ned was alive, is there any doubt she'd reveal Jon, in order to challenge Joff?

[Pete Martell]

From what I hear? Cersei is vastly unpopular, but Jaime is funny and he saved Brienne, who is much loved. If we are counting up the positive character moments in screen, we have all Jaime's funny lines with Brienne, saving Brienne from rape, jumping into a bearpit for Brienne, giving Oathkeeper to Brienne, standing up to Tywin to save Tyrion, his scenes in the cells with Tyrion and setting Tyrion free.

 

I never really knew why his comments to Brienne (basically calling her ugly and worthless because she couldn't get a man to fuck her) were seen as all that adorable, but then if you look like NCW I guess it's OK.

 

I tend to wonder how many viewers would even have an opinion of Jaime over the last two seasons. Beyond the sept scene, he's had no role and no purpose. He's like that guy you invite to your party because you know he's gorgeous and will make good background decoration.

[WearyTraveler]

For the record I think the Night King recognized Jon as AA.

 

That was my impression too.  I thought he wouldn't have bothered to go down the hill for anything / anyone else.  I also think he knows / perceives that Jon is not aware of his full powers yet, so, he came down his vantage point to scare him by making a big show of power.  Maybe he thinks if he manages to get Jon scared enough to run away, he won't decide to fight them and will not, therefore, realize his full potential as AA.

 

Hopefully it's all a bunch of bullshit.  Death to prophecy as a plot device in fantasy novels!

 

Maybe that can happen in future books, but I doubt it will in this series.  Not only are the prophecies everywhere, but some have come true already (e.g. Maggie the Frog's prophecies-not all but several have become true).

 

Jon Snow: "We'll give the fuckers a fight!"  I believe that's the first time Jon has cursed on screen.

 

Weird! I hadn't noticed that.  I would have thought that the first time Jon saw the wights and WW in the Fist of the First Men he would have at least said "FUCK!!!"

 

Since the white walkers have been a threat for 1000 years, shouldn't they have records about obsidian and valerian steel being the weapons to use.  I hope someone is writing it down now anyway - get to it Sam!

 

As someone pointed out upthread, they have been a threat for longer than that.  But, as Sam explains to Jon in the books, the records are confusing, and a lot of the information has been lost.  They had no printing press, so all the records were made by hand on parchment paper.  Some of the books in the NW have disintegrated or are illegible.  There are several mentions in the books (mostly in Bran's chapters) about the Children of the Forest having knowledge about these things and all other sort of magic-related issues, but since the Children are gone (or so is the belief in Westeros), all that knowledge is gone too.

 

It's a little bit like the tale of The Boy Who Cried Wolf.  The first hundred years after the last WW assault people probably believed in the threat, but after thousands of years of long summers and long winters with no sign of the WW, people stopped believing and attributed those beliefs to superstitions.  Tyrion even jokes about "Grumpkins" with Jon on the way to The Wall in AGOT.  Even The Watch forgot all about it.

 

Upon re-read of the books, I always find myself paying a lot more attention to Old Nan and the stories she told Bran, because it seems all of them were true.

 

I loved those fierce faerie bitches in the S5 finale, and I can't remember the lore re: the last time the Other's were a problem, and if the Targaryen's and their Dragon's are what shut them down, or if it was the Children of the Forest who scared them off the first of the first times.

 

The last time Azor Ahai shut them down, way before the Targaryens showed up.  Westeros was first inhabited by The Children, then came The First Men (the Starks are descendents of this group), who had an amicable relationship with them.  Then came the Andals who brought iron, and their weapons being superior, they drove away The Children, who hid in the forests. So the Andals cut down all the Weirwoods in the South.  At the time this story takes place in Westeros, most people believe The Children are extinct.  It's Bran who discovers that they survived and are hiding north of The Wall.

 

Brandon The Builder (one of the Stark's ancestors and a First Man) was the one who built The Wall after the WW were beat by AA the last time.  The Children of the Forest put spells on it, which is one of the reasons the WWs and wights can't cross it and why Cold Hands had to ask Sam (a sworn Black Brother) to open the Weirwood gate for Bran.

 

There's a story in one of Bran's chapters, IIRC, when they are hiding by the tower in the middle of a lake, about one of the Targaryen queens riding her dragon all the way to The Wall, so she could see it.  My memory is fuzzy on the details, but basically The Wall was up long before Aegon crossed the Narrow Sea to invade and conquer Westeros.

 

Yeah this this the biggest reason I'm a dedicated acolyte of Benjen is COLD HANDS, I know all the perfectly logical solid reason why he is NOT, but I love Benjen, and I super love Dead Pan Walking that is Coldhands. So I want them to be one in the same.

 

 

 

Martin himself denied this in response to a note by his editor in one manuscript (i.e. not a public thing, it was discovered fairly recently), so, I don't think that'll be the case.  Although that would have been cool.

 

It's weird because Benjen is such a minor character in the series, but one of my hopes is that we find out what happened to him.  This mystery of his disappearance is very intriguing to me.  Other brothers of the NW that have gone North have been lost, but they always find out what happened to them.  When I read about Benjen missing in the books, it feels important, but I can't put my finger on exactly why it feels that way.

 

Put me in the group who thinks that this episode confirmed Jon as Azor Ahai, and Longclaw as Lightbringer. Wheee! I whooped when he struck down the White Walker, and then got in stare down with the Nights King.

 

It's heavily implied in the books, and Jon and Sam deduce it must be so that Valyrian steel can kill a WW, but there's no factual evidence of this in the books.  And we have only seen one WW die by Jon's Valyrian sword on the show.  So I was wondering if the show will do away with the Valyrian steel thing for simplicity's sake and the message we were meant to take away from that scene is that Jon's sword (and not all Valyrian swords) is special.

 

It's been my theory for a while that Longclaw is Lightbringer.  That it was given to the Mormonts, the family that lives the furthest north for safekeeping after the last battle with the White Walkers, but that the knowledge of just how important this sword is was also lost as time went by.  It would be awesome to have that theory confirmed.

 

My memory of what Cersei was charged with in the books is fuzzy but surely regicide isn't something that can be made right with a confession/walk of shame?

 

She confesses to adultery (Lancel and the Kettleblacks) and pretends to repent for it. So, her punishment for that is the Walk.  In exchange for this confession she gets to go home to await trial for the regicide in a sort of Medieval house arrest.

 

Anybody else think maybe the mad king wasn't so mad?

 

I don't know.  His actions toward Rickard and Brandon Stark seemed pretty crazy (from awoiaf):

 

"Before any of the marriages could take place Lyanna disappeared. Brandon held Rhaegar Targaryen, the heir to the throne, responsible and went with a small company of young nobles to King's Landing to challenge Rhaegar. Aerys II had them all imprisoned on charges of conspiring to kill the crown prince and summoned their fathers to answer for the crimes of their sons. The nobles went and were immediately executed with their sons by Aerys. As was his right, Rickard demanded a trial by combat. Jaime Lannister relates that Aerys granted Rickard's request but to Aerys, the Targaryen champion was fire. He had Rickard burned, with the pyromancer Rossart lighting a fire beneath him while Rickard was dressed in his armor. Brandon was made to watch his father die with a noose around his neck and a sword just out of his reach. Trying to reach the sword to save his father, Brandon strangled himself."

[Avaleigh]

It's heavily implied in the books, and Jon and Sam deduce it must be so that Valyrian steel can kill a WW, but there's no factual evidence of this in the books.  And we have only seen one WW die by Jon's Valyrian sword on the show.  So I was wondering if the show will do away with the Valyrian steel thing for simplicity's sake and the message we were meant to take away from that scene is that Jon's sword (and not all Valyrian swords) is special.

I don't know...that would mean that Jon would have to kill quite a few White Walkers. I think all Valyrian steel is going to do the trick.

 

I know we're unsure about the numbers but there have to be more than what we saw in this episode and even more than in the episode where the NK first appears. Where are Craster's kids? Or do they just age instantly and we didn't see that aspect of it? How do we know Craster was the only wildling who made sacrifices to the Others? 

Jon Snow: "We'll give the fuckers a fight!"  I believe that's the first time Jon has cursed on screen.

 

 

Weird! I hadn't noticed that.  I would have thought that the first time Jon saw the wights and WW in the Fist of the First Men he would have at least said "FUCK!!!"

 

Was Jon there in the show? That was Sam, Edd, and Grenn at the Fist. 

 

Regarding the theory that the thirteen White Walkers all used to be members of the Night's Watch, I can sort of see that. Maybe some of them stayed with the NK after his downfall. They're all dressed in black.

[MadMouse]

I don't know...that would mean that Jon would have to kill quite a few White Walkers. I think all Valyrian steel is going to do the trick.

 

I know we're unsure about the numbers but there have to be more than what we saw in this episode and even more than in the episode where the NK first appears. Where are Craster's kids? Or do they just age instantly and we didn't see that aspect of it? How do we know Craster was the only wildling who made sacrifices to the Others? 

Was Jon there in the show? That was Sam, Edd, and Grenn at the Fist. 

 

Regarding the theory that the thirteen White Walkers all used to be members of the Night's Watch, I can sort of see that. Maybe some of them stayed with the NK after his downfall. They're all dressed in black.

 

Then there's the story of the Last Hero who traveled with twelve companions making him the thirteenth. I wouldn't be surprised if it the real story isn't something similar to Prometheus.

 

As for the armor that's more of practical choice for show instead of ones made out of reflective ice like in the books.

[InsertWordHere]

Thirteen seems to come up a lot when it comes to the Others. 

 

The Night's King was the 13th Lord Commander who ruled for 13 years. 

 

The last hero set out with 12 companions to find the children of the forest during the Long Night, making it a company of 13.

[jeansheridan]

Decapitated dwarfs. This character sipped on some wine while a dwarf head rolled across the table and she did not blink an eye. How do people not remember this? She ordered the decapitated of all dwarfs. Hating Tyrion is not justification for that.

 

*bangs head into wall*

 

What has Cersei done? Honestly, HONESTLY people.

Point taken. Although I don't think she said all dwarves. They were being industrious. Life is cheap to her. But Stannis has burned people alive to get the throne. The Sand Snakes killed the ship captain. Arya killed one man just to feel better (after Robb' s murder). They're all horrible but only Cersei gets called a bitch.

I will stop now. I understand the dislike of her. Maybe I want a redemption arc for her as well.

[mac123x]

Weird! I hadn't noticed that.  I would have thought that the first time Jon saw the wights and WW in the Fist of the First Men he would have at least said "FUCK!!!"

 

In the Season 4 DVD set, Kit Harrington and John Bradley do the commentary track on E4.09.  They're discussing Sam's famous "Pip, open the FUCKING gate!" line, and Kit remarks that they've never had Jon curse.

[jeansheridan]

Anybody else think maybe the mad king wasn't so mad?

In the books he is normal enough until he is taken hostage by some random Lord and Selmy saves him. That said Jaime, Varys, and Selmy have all confirmed he was batty in the end. I do wonder a lot about The Queen. It is hinted in the books that the marriage was unhappy. What if Dany isn't his child? She is only a half Targaryan? One reason to burn a man would be jealousy. What do we know about Ned' s brother?

Edited June 4, 2015 by jeansheridan

[Pogojoco]

I have to cut Ned some slack on this one. The only way to absolutely keep something secret is to tell no one. I think all of us believe that R+L = J; keeping Jon's true parentage from Robert is treason. Ned isn't just covering up R's marital infidelity, he's hiding away and raising the true successor to the Iron Throne. I think he believes that he's keeping everyone he loves safe by keeping them in the dark. And besides, Cat is a bit of a hot head. I don't believe for a minute that she could keep that huge a secret without feeling the need to manage things. I think she would have been all over Ned to come clean to Robert out of fear for what the consequences would be to her own children if the truth ever came out.

Cat being resentful of Jon, though very hard on the kid and causing marital grief for Ned, is part of hiding him. I don't even think it's got to do with her perhaps wanting to confess to Robert or protecting her kids, though that might be some of it.  

 

It's part of Cat's nature to be stubborn and proud, and if she is soft on the bastard kid Ned brought home from war, people would wonder. And she would be soft if it was her husband's orphaned nephew. Everything Ned does when it comes to Jon is to deflect attention away from it. 

Edited June 4, 2015 by Pogojoco

[benteen]

I would hope at the very least that after Hardhome, Edd no longer has doubts about working together with the Wildlings.

[Pogojoco]

In the books he is normal enough until he is taken hostage by some random Lord and Selmy saves him. That sais, Jaime, Carts, and Selmy have all confirmed he was batty in the end. I do wonder a lot about The Queen. It is hinted in the books that the marriage was unhappy. What if Dany isn't his child? She is only a half Targaryan? One reason to burn a man would be jealousy. What do we know about Ned' s brother?

Brandon was a great fighter, a great horseman (so was Lyanna), and a rake. But in Winterfell most of the time. And he showed up in King's Landing with some of his dudes, demanding Rhaegar come out and fight him for Lyanna. He was arrested and then his dad showed up. The logistics are no good. Rhaella also wasn't at Harenhall, when it would be time they all might've been together. 

 

And Dany's parents marriage was unhappy because Aerys used to torture her mother. Jamie would hear her sobbing when he was guarding outside their door. There were also rumours that Rhaegar was going to try to overthrow Aerys because Aerys was nuts.

 

The fire vs ice stuff is valid, but I don't think the argument can be made that Aerys wasn't insane when so many people have said he was batshit. 

Edited June 4, 2015 by Pogojoco

[lucindabelle]

Ok it was just a thought, they seem to be saying the mad king in an arch way, is Jamie's perceptuon 100% accurate? Are there other reasons his mother could have been sobbing? Such as jealousy?

I dunno. Lot of princes get slandered by history, I very much doubt anne Boleyn had sex with her brother.

That said, viserys was not nice at all. Still. Not insane.

[Hecate7]

See, to me this is an example of Ned being rigid with his rules beyond reason. After a reasonably happy marriage, no further evidence of adultery, and multiple children you'd think at some point especially given Cat's treatment of Jon that Ned would feel that he'd be able to trust Catelyn enough to make her understand. His rigid code of rules won't allow it though. He won't even entertain the idea that Lyanna might have understood. He could have made her swear before telling her the entire deal. I don't really see how Cat would have given him any reason to think that he wouldn't be able to trust her with something important like this particularly when I consider how much it would have meant to her to know that Ned had remained faithful during their marriage. 

 

You're really not understanding this particular issue. Robert Baratheon swore to kill every last Targaryen. Ned Stark made a deathbed promise to his sister to tell NO ONE.

 

This was life or death. Had Ned been caught, he'd have been beheaded, or maybe drawn and quartered, along with everyone who conspired with him to shelter Rhaegar Targaryen's bastard. It's not just a matter of breaking a deathbed promise to his sister, which would be bad enough. It was also a matter of risking being caught lying to the King and having his whole family executed.

 

If Robert had suspected anything, he might have used the children against Catelyn to very good effect, and don't think he wouldn't have done it.

 

Catelyn's awful treatment of Jon Snow was a small price to pay to keep all of them alive. And if it took some of the edge off of their marital happiness, well, being boiled in oil would have taken off a great deal more.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Hecate7

[BlackberryJam]

Point taken. Although I don't think she said all dwarves. They were being industrious. Life is cheap to her. But Stannis has burned people alive to get the throne. The Sand Snakes killed the ship captain. Arya killed one man just to feel better (after Robb' s murder). They're all horrible but only Cersei gets called a bitch.

I will stop now. I understand the dislike of her. Maybe I want a redemption arc for her as well.

 

My original post was to what real crimes she had committed. Why she is dislikable is a totally different story. Mostly I dislike her because I think LH's acting is shit and she always looks bored. Cannot stand LH, although she was great in the floor liking scene. Every single other scene I have seen her in sucks.

 

Stannis, let's see. Stannis came to the NW's with a bad ass army to rescue them. That gets him points. He's going to die a hero's death. Oh and he had a touching scene with his daughter which wasn't loaded with lies, innuendo and a gross feeling that he was going to kiss her. Yep. Stannis totally wins over Cersei on the parenting front. Did he burn people? Yep. Create a murdering smoke baby? Totally. But he is not astoundingly smug and boring like Cersei.

 

The Sand Snakes are horrific and I am totally down with Arya dying, and dying soon. If I have to watch her sweep another floor, I'd be willing to off her myself.

 

So, I get that you'd like Cersei to be a better character. Unfortunately, she isn't. I personally think GRRM hates her as a character and that's why she comes off so poorly.

Edited June 4, 2015 by BlackberryJam

[Pogojoco]

Ok it was just a thought, they seem to be saying the mad king in an arch way, is Jamie's perceptuon 100% accurate? Are there other reasons his mother could have been sobbing? Such as jealousy?

I dunno. Lot of princes get slandered by history, I very much doubt anne Boleyn had sex with her brother.

That said, viserys was not nice at all. Still. Not insane.

It's not just Jamie who says Aerys was mad. Selmy is the other one who says it for sure. It was just sort of known.

 

And it's said that all Targaryans in history are either fantastic or insane. GRRM gives endless examples. Tyrion keeps kind of referring to Daenerys like that- like he's not sure which she is yet.  

 

Viserys was mercurial, impulsive and abusive. He also had some serious delusions of grandeur. So I guess it would depend on one's definition of insane. But I would say, in modern diagnosis talk but just based on the little bits of what GRRM gave us, he "presents" as kind of bipolar with some other stuff thrown in. 

 

And Jamie heard Rhaella being raped, and wanted to stop it but was prevented by the other Kingsguard. He's pretty definite about that. Aerys also had a thing for Joanna Lannister, which doesn't illustrate madness but it's a fun little side fact. 

 

Oh, and I like that Cersei is awful and I think it's totally okay that she is. One of the best contributions GRRM had given the whole fantasy genre was populating his work with so many varied women, who are noble, vain, sweet, insane, misguided, evil etc etc. No two are alike. 

Edited June 4, 2015 by Pogojoco

[Oscirus]

It's part of Cat's nature to be stubborn and proud, and if she is soft on the bastard kid Ned brought home from war, people would wonder

 

Even if they did, why would anybody jump to the conclusion that he's secretly Rhaegar 's kid?\

 

It is hinted in the books that the marriage was unhappy. What if Dany isn't his child? She is only a half Targaryan?

 

 

That's funny that I'm reading this because just today I saw a youtube video stating that R + j= D and the B + Arrysha= J. It was a well presented  theory.

 

 

This was life or death. Had Ned been caught, he'd have been beheaded, or maybe drawn and quartered, along with everyone who conspired with him to shelter Rhaegar Targaryen's bastard. It's not just a matter of breaking a deathbed promise to his sister, which would be bad enough. It was also a matter of risking being caught lying to the King and having his whole family executed.

 

Ignoring the fact that would mean that Robert would have to kill his best friend and go against the advice of his Hand to do so, with the fractured state of his kingdom at the time,  and his army fairly weakened he'd have to attack the fairly well fortified Winterfell and ruin relations with a pretty powerful ally. I seriously doubt that he would do all that.

 

Not to mention that unless people were spying on Catelyn, there is no reason that he couldn't pull her aside and tell her the truth and just tell her to keep her mouth shut. In the long run, the only thing this secret did was to have Jon raised in a hostile household with a woman that hated him.

 

Between this and his determination to force his beliefs on Theon ( who he pretty much raised with a knife to his neck) and it starts to become clear that his foster child raising is another thing about him that sucks.

[WearyTraveler]

I may be remembering wrong, but from what I recall, Theon's internal monologue before he went to the Iron Islands to bring Robb's letter to Balon, showed no indication that he felt he had a knife on his throat, or was a prisoner or resented the Starks to the point of betrayal.  He was jealous of the loyalty and admiration they inspired and wanted to be just like them in that regard.  On his way to see his father, all he talks about is being heralded as a hero by his people and his father, sitting in the Lord's chair and basically just being the Ned Stark of the Iron Islands.

 

It's only when he gets there and starts listening to his father and the other Ironborn's opinion of his time with the Starks that he starts feeling resentment and believing that he was a prisoner, like his family believed.

 

I think this says a lot about Theon and the Starks, and I'll leave it a that because this is the episode thread and I get bored with long winded discussions of moral points that we can't know for sure because there's enough evidence in the text to support both sides of the argument.

[Bill1978]

I'm more of a casual viewer of GoT, in that I don't mind being spoiled and it took me forever to actually watch an episode and when I did I thought 'Really? That's it?' But since I've recently got access to te show on a weekly basis, I've been watching all of this season. Up until this week I have felt the show wasn't anything to write home about and it has honestly felt like it was just padding for the sake of not wanting to spoil anything major from the upcoming book.

 

BUT OMG those last 12 minutes of this episode were AMAZING!!! So tense, just incredible. It made me want more of that storyline. I don't care about anything south of Winterfell now. Well I kidna didn't already but this just made me realise that what I care most about all the plots is WInterfell and the creep stuff beyond The Wall. It also reminded me that this show started with the creepy guys and made them mysterious but has really ignored there contribution to the plot (thanks to GRRM to be honest). Who cares about the stupid throne sitter when you havethis epic battle coming.

[mac123x]

Show!Ned had an opportunity to come clean with his wife regarding Jon:  Show!Cat told Talysa a story about how Jon got the pox as a little boy, and wasn't expected to live.  She had a self-realization that she was the worst person in the world for the way she treated him, and made a promise to the gods that if he survived, she'd treat him better.  He did survive, but she broke that promise and went back to despising him. 

 

During her self-flaggelation period when she was feeling so guilty for Jon getting sick after she'd wished him dead, Ned could have revealed the R+L=J truth.  Cat would have treated Jon differently afterwards, and anyone who wondered why would be given the explanation of "I realized Jon isn't to blame, and I promised the gods to treat him right."

 

That story wasn't in the books, and given Cat's other impulsive, irrational actions (nabbing Tyrion, e.g.), I can understand why Ned took the safer course.  In the wise words of the theme song to Pretty Little Liars, "two can keep a secret if one of them is dead."

 

 

In the books he is normal enough until he is taken hostage by some random Lord and Selmy saves him. That said Jaime, Varys, and Selmy have all confirmed he was batty in the end. I do wonder a lot about The Queen. It is hinted in the books that the marriage was unhappy. What if Dany isn't his child? She is only a half Targaryan? One reason to burn a man would be jealousy. What do we know about Ned' s brother?

 

I don't know how canonical AWOIAF is, but it states that shortly after one of their children died in infancy (before Viserys was born), Aerys was convinced his wife was cheating on him, so he essentially placed her under house arrest.  She had to stay in the Red Keep, and two septas were assigned as bed-mates to keep her faithful.

[proserpina65]

Weird! I hadn't noticed that.  I would have thought that the first time Jon saw the wights and WW in the Fist of the First Men he would have at least said "FUCK!!!"

 

Jon wasn't at the Fist of the First Men by that time.  He was out with Qhorin Halfhand, trying to track down Mance Rayder's army.  He only saw the aftermath of that encounter, not the army of the reanimated dead.

[marys1000]

Highly upset by the White Walkers!  The one at Craster's seemed super tall, super thin, super white, very alien looking. Really grabbed me, thought they were and would be very different creatures.

 The ones at Hardhome looked like pale people who had acid splashed on their skins or bad burns.  The Lt almost looked a bit stout!  

Their clothes looked very normal.

The King's expression at the end, raising the wights was very human - look at me, I'm such a badass you should be scared.  Boring.

 

The wights were very World War Z.   

 

 

 

Just ................very disappointed. 

Edited June 4, 2015 by marys1000

[proserpina65]

Highly upset by the White Walkers!  The one at Craster's seemed super tall, super thin, super white, very alien looking. Really grabbed me, thought they were and would be very different creatures.

The ones at Hardhome looked like pale people who had acid splashed on their skins or bad burns.  The Lt almost looked a bit stout! 

Their clothes looked very normal.

Maybe there are variations in the White Walkers because some of them were created from Craster's babies and some weren't?  That's a question for the showrunners, methinks.

Edited June 4, 2015 by proserpina65

[Constantinople]

The ones at Hardhome looked like pale people who had acid splashed on their skins or bad burns.  The Lt almost looked a bit stout!

I'd rather not fat shame the Walkers

[jcin617]

I hate that the show makes it seem like the Faith Militant just care about Maergery and Cersei sleeping around.

But Maergery was not arrested for sleeping around (which she hasn't, anyway); she was arrested for lying while under an oath to the gods.

[Greta]

I don't know how canonical AWOIAF is, but it states that shortly after one of their children died in infancy (before Viserys was born), Aerys was convinced his wife was cheating on him, so he essentially placed her under house arrest.  She had to stay in the Red Keep, and two septas were assigned as bed-mates to keep her faithful.

 

Wasn't there a brief throwaway story in AFFC  about a knight who had a thing for Rhaella (it seemed implied that the feelings were returned)? But he wasn't of sufficient status (and, you know, not her brother). So he turned to religion and I want to say was the one left in charge of Harrenhall after Jaime left?

[hammaboo]

I'm more of a casual viewer of GoT, in that I don't mind being spoiled and it took me forever to actually watch an episode and when I did I thought 'Really? That's it?' But since I've recently got access to te show on a weekly basis, I've been watching all of this season. Up until this week I have felt the show wasn't anything to write home about and it has honestly felt like it was just padding for the sake of not wanting to spoil anything major from the upcoming book.

 

BUT OMG those last 12 minutes of this episode were AMAZING!!! So tense, just incredible. It made me want more of that storyline. I don't care about anything south of Winterfell now. Well I kidna didn't already but this just made me realise that what I care most about all the plots is WInterfell and the creep stuff beyond The Wall. It also reminded me that this show started with the creepy guys and made them mysterious but has really ignored there contribution to the plot (thanks to GRRM to be honest). Who cares about the stupid throne sitter when you havethis epic battle coming.

 

Actually, I wonder if this isn't the intended plot point and purpose by GRRM initially.  These people that have been developed as the main characters only care about being on the throne and they can't be bothered to look outside themselves enough to care for the kingdom they want to rule.  But we opened the entire series with the White Walkers and the sheer fear and horror they could bring.

 

Because if anyone actually cared about ruling the Kingdom and not just ruling, they would have houses still send a youngest son to the wall and it wouldn't be a castle full of rapists and thieves, the small council would be made up of people from all 7 parts of the kingdom and so on and so forth - you know, things the King and/or Queen could do/enforce.

 

The North has been saying "Winter is Coming" for ages - it was almost treated like a joke by the Southerns.  It's only under actual threat that one of the claimant kings even turn an eye to the North, as in the book ravens had been sent to all in the hopes that they would respond.  And Stannis only really did it to try to bring himself glory and the power of the North, not because he actually wanted to save "his" Kingdom, but because he wanted to be able to say he did and be recognized as having done it