S05.E08: Hardhome

[proserpina65]

It wasn't until last night that I learned there was even any debate about this. It seemed totally straightforward to me. As straightforward as the idea that it's more than likely one needs Valyrian blood to be a dragonrider or that one needs the blood of the First Men in order to be a warg.

It never even dawned on me to think about it, but it does make perfect sense.

[blixie]

 

I think the weird prisoner/foster son thing is the central issue for Theon and his identity, both in the book and the show.

 

This, I mean if there are no real feelings loyalty and love than Theon didn't commit a grave betrayal, and yet everyone involved perceives it (including him) as exactly that, both in the books and on the show. He and Jon's experiences within the Stark home were often paralleled. Both were of the Stark household and family but to varying degrees outsiders (Robb was closer to Theon, and Arya closer to Jon, but neither was super close to the rest, both were on Cat's shitlist). The show is over playing the degree of closeness/degree of complication, but there was real love/friendship between them all before things went to shit.

[Chris24601]

I think the show has got to go completely off-book now if that moment is going to happen.  Even if Jon hears that Sansa is at Winterfell, even if he received a letter from Roose Bolton taunting him, how can he possibly consider leaving the Wall to come to the aid of Winterfell now that he has seen the army of the dead and the White Walker king?  

 

Furthermore I'm going to be quite irritated if the brothers of the NW return with all the Wildings AND the stories of the armies of the dead (which is the whole reason they went to fetch the Wildings) and Ollie just ignores the peril from the White Walkers and stabs Jon because he allied with the Wildings.  I mean yeah, he's a kid, so maybe not the best political strategist but if Ollie is the one who takes down Jon and he does it for simple, misguided vengeance -- it's really going to piss me off.  He should want to kill Tormund, not Jon.  

 

Oh well, I'm not going to get worked up in advance.  It's kind of fun not to know where things are going.

I see how they could do it... if Jon and the other NW come back with the Wildlings and the stories and they STILL try to murder Jon because they're such short-sighted asshats who can't see past their own petty issues then LET THE WALKERS TAKE THEM with Jon, Ghost, Sam, Gilly and Little Sam as the only survivors. If you wanna up the OH SHIT factor by about a hundred, let the Walkers take Castle Black in the finale.

 

That would certainly free up Jon to go rescue his sister and take out the Boltons without violating his Oath or (if the Wall falls Winterfell is probably the best stronghold in the North to use as a base against the Walkers... its even got a tree to tie Bran into things once he can start looking/seeing through the trees and was built by the same guy who put up the Wall in the first place). Its also a valid reason to send Sam to OldTown looking for anything to help.

 

And to think... just last week I was saying "really the Walkers aren't all that bad compared to what's going on south of the Wall." Fifteen minutes of Hardhome and now even Ramsey "I flay old ladies for fun" Bolton looks like a pathetic little wanker playing at being evil/badass. If not for her dragons/blood ties to Old Valeria I'd even put Dany in the same boat of 'what's the point?' petty bickering over a throne that's worthless unless the Walkers are stopped (though with the talk of "King Crow" I'm now wondering if there might be a bit more to the visions of the empty throne we've been shown... because its not ACTUALLY empty... there's SNOW on it).

 

Stannis is about the only leader south of the Wall who even remotely gets it and, because anyone south of the Wall with any power being in a position to help simply cannot be allowed to stand, Ramsey's probably about to murder him (I'm wondering if it won't be Stannis sacrificing himself for his daughter and charging Davos with getting Shireen to safety as a dying request). Although I'm kinda thinking this might be how they circituitiously save Jon. Cue Ramsey killing Stannis intercut with Ollie and the idiots murdering Jon for the parallels. Then Mel does some ritual to restore 'Azor Ahai' to life to save Stannis only for it to to appear to not work much to her confusion... cut to the murdered Jon Snow suddenly sitting up and taking a deep gasp of air and cut to black.

 

I'm basically babbling here because after that final scene its like... yeah, all this stuff we've been making look important... forget it all because SHIT. JUST. GOT. REAL.

[WatchrTina]

 

I'm now wondering if there might be a bit more to the visions of the empty throne we've been shown... because its not ACTUALLY empty... there's SNOW on it

Ooooooh.  The possibilities! I LOVE that observation.

[mac123x]

I noticed a parallel between Dany's speech about breaking the wheel and the High Sparrow's speech about the many no longer fearing the few.  They're both casting their actions as benefiting the common man at the expense of the aristocracy.  It'd be interesting to see them interact, because on the surface it looks like they have the same goal but they really don't.  Dany is aiming for absolute monarchy / enlightened despotism, while HS wants basically a theocracy.

 

I doubt we'll ever get to see them talk, unless someone brings them glass candles.

Edited June 1, 2015 by mac123x

[hendersonrocks]

From a few pages back now, but...

 

Is it just me, or did anyone else look through the horde of undead thinking, "Okay, which one is Benjen..."

 

 

OMG yes. I will be so $(@*# sad if we never get him back, dead or undead. Any time someone of mystery & importance pops up (like the dude in the tree), I'm like IS IT BENJEN?! To hell with the books. I'm holding out hope.

 

I'm still bored by Arya. I cared more about Wildling Ass Kicking Mom in one episode than I have about Arya all season.

[DangerousTangerine]

 (Robb was closer to Theon, and Arya closer to Jon, but neither was super close to the rest, both were on Cat's shitlist). The show is over playing the

 

 

I really don't know where you got this idea that Jon wasn't close to the rest of his siblings. He was...all except Sansa. And I'm tired of people comparing a hostage to an actual member of the family.

[Helena Dax]

While that would have made more sense, that wasn't true. She put her children on one of the boats.  The Wights and the White Walkers apparently aren't waterproof, so Jon and the others could escape.

 

If one of those kids were related to her, he could be  her little  brother. I mean, didn't she say that she had lost two brothers?

 

I  had the same problems with the books:  I can't enjoy Cersei's punishment as much as I'd like, because the ones doing  the punishment are as disgusting as she is. They're torturing her  into confessing. And yes, she's guilty, but if she had  been innocent, she'd  be still going mad with thirst. She would still confess in order to  get some water. Karma is a  bitch and Cersei has made her own  bed, but the High Septon and  his nuns deserve to die in a fire as soon as possible too.

 

Re: Incest. I don't  understand the acusation. Having sex with your first cousin is acceptable in our world and in Westeros: Lysa wanted Sansa to get married to Robin. And if it's with Jaime, that's not "only" incest, it's an attack to Tommen and Myrcella  too. It'd leave Stannis as  the only rightful king of Westeros. That's huge, but no one  in  this episode seemed  concerned  about that. Has it been explicitly said that she's accused of incest?

 

LOVED the scene with Dany and Tyrion. I know I'm not the only one, but I was so frustrated with ADWD finished and they hadn't met yet! And now, together at least. Awesome. I think  Tyrion's going to be very helpful, a proper Hand of the Khalessi.

 

Theon told  Sansa the truth about Bran and Rickon! How brilliant is that? Even  if she can't find them right now, just knowing that they could be alive and  that  there's still hope to see a Stark as lord of Winterfell has to be amazing. 

 

And of course, the battle was great, but tbh, it wasn't  my favourite part of the episode.

[ElizaD]

This season, the Night's Watch plot has been so much better than anything else that's been going on. Now, finally, the White Walkers get to be an awesome enemy. I wish they got all the way to King's Landing, but I guess the southern half of the continent will only have to deal with winter instead of having to face the stupidity of their game. Loved the tension and then the action, loved Jon's big fight, loved the Night's King. And the giant! I'm also joining the praise of the wildling woman. Only one episode yet she seemed more like a believable, real person than the Sand Snakes, or Daario, who's had 2+ seasons as Dany's love interest.

 

Cersei never learns, and aging up Tommen has made him seem unsuited to being king. He's a nice kid, but his inability to cope has gotten to the point where "lack of training" no longer feels like a good enough excuse.

 

It's grating to watch Dany's smug speeches and Tyrion's flawless perfection in one scene.

[Raachel2008]

Unless, of course, episode 9 is Drogon, Cersei's walk of shame, Sansa's escape from Winterfell, and Melisandre realizing that she's made a terrible mistake. 

Episode 10 could be Kevan getting stabbed by Varys, Tyrion and Jorah freeing Dany's other dragons, Arya's big kill/turning blind, Sansa and Theon hopefully safe with Brienne.  As well as Jon's Julius Caesar moment.

 

 

Oh, defintely. I bet the last scene of the season will be Jon Snow beeling on the snow. Cause, you know, symbolism and all.

[blixie]

The problem is if he was a family member or a friend, he would have been less likely to betray them.

Uh why? Because families don't betray each other? Because these supposed rules of the game get followed so faithfully in Westeros (Hospitality, kinslaying, kingslaying)? Dude Theon, was the perfect fucking STORM for betrayal because his loyalties and emotions were so conflicted. Again you can't be painted as betraying someone you never even fucking LIKED or supported in the first place, and who liked and supported you in return. If all Theon did was give just fucking desserts to his long term captors by rightfully and understandably turning on them, that's a shitty shallow storyline. I happen to think it had more power and weight to it, precisely because he did feel a part of the family even if he was *technically* a hostage, and there was no real blood or emotional relationship between himself, Ned, the Stark children, and the other members of House Stark.

I adored Arya's story in this episode it's clipping along at a great pace, and I'm so happy to see her all grown up, and learning how to "see". Not everything has to be about plot especially when the character is so essentially captivating. I think by the end of this season she will see Trant to confirm she's not NOBODY, she's still a Stark with all the grudges and loves that make her Arya Stark, she will never really be a Faceless Man.

Cersei, you reap what you sow, bitch.

Yup I find what she's suffering right now DEEPLY satisfying, it's whats to come that will make me cringe. In terms of the incest, I could see The Faith in the past allowing it while this HS in all his piety deeming it still a crime.

I wonder if an "army" of Children of the Forest is in our future. They're pretty bad-ass, what which flinging fire-bombs at wights and all.

I loved those fierce faerie bitches in the S5 finale, and I can't remember the lore re: the last time the Other's were a problem, and if the Targaryen's and their Dragon's are what shut them down, or if it was the Children of the Forest who scared them off the first of the first times.

OMG yes. I will be so $(@*# sad if we never get him back, dead or undead. Any time someone of mystery & importance pops up (like the dude in the tree), I'm like IS IT BENJEN?! To hell with the books. I'm holding out hope.

Yeah this this the biggest reason I'm a dedicated acolyte of Benjen is COLD HANDS, I know all the perfectly logical solid reason why he is NOT, but I love Benjen, and I super love Dead Pan Walking that is Coldhands. So I want them to be one in the same.

Put me in the group who thinks that this episode confirmed Jon as Azor Ahai, and Longclaw as Lightbringer. Wheee! I whooped when he struck down the White Walker, and then got in stare down with the Nights King.

Edited June 1, 2015 by blixie

[InsertWordHere]

and really, you guys thought that Valyrian steel wasn't dragon steel?

No, and I'm not sure I've read anyone saying so in this thread, but even if they had, there is a difference between a confirmed fact and an assumption. 

 

Sam: "I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it."

"Dragonsteel?" Jon frowned. "Valyrian steel?"

"That was my first thought as well."

 

Jon and Sam are guessing here. I think most people, myself included, believed their guess was correct, but until we saw Longclaw in action against an Other (something that has yet to happen in the books), we did not have confirmation that their guess was correct. Also, the timeline makes it such that the last hero and the long night probably happened before the rise of Valyria and possibly before Valyrian steel was available in Westeros. It's my belief that the last hero's sword is the same as Lightbringer, that Lightbringer was a dragonsteel sword still burning with the heat of dragonfire and that the Valyrians modeled their signature steel after it.

[Haleth]

Re: Incest. I don't  understand the acusation. Having sex with your first cousin is acceptable in our world and in Westeros: Lysa wanted Sansa to get married to Robin. And if it's with Jaime, that's not "only" incest, it's an attack to Tommen and Myrcella  too. It'd leave Stannis as  the only rightful king of Westeros. That's huge, but no one  in  this episode seemed  concerned  about that. Has it been explicitly said that she's accused of incest?

 

Yes, Was it Qyburn who listed her charges?  Incest was among them and I'm sure it means Lancel, not Jaime.  I think it's a retcon on the part of the show writers to have first cousins off limits.  The far greater issues are the murder and the infidelity.  But where is it acceptable in our world for first cousins to have sex?  (All jokes about hillbillies aside.)

 

I was thinking it would be awesome if Dany flies off on Drogon, leaving Tyrion (instead of Selmy) to act as Hand of the Queen in her absence.

[Sleepwalker]

Although I'm kinda thinking this might be how they circituitiously save Jon. Cue Ramsey killing Stannis intercut with Ollie and the idiots murdering Jon for the parallels. Then Mel does some ritual to restore 'Azor Ahai' to life to save Stannis only for it to to appear to not work much to her confusion... cut to the murdered Jon Snow suddenly sitting up and taking a deep gasp of air and cut to black.

 

Wow! I just have to break my many years of strict lurkdom going back to TWoP to tip my hat to you, Sir/Madam. This is so good a speculation it's halfway to becoming a spoiler, in my mind. A tad cliche, perhaps, but riveting nonetheless.

[Helena Dax]

Yes, Was it Qyburn who listed her charges?  Incest was among them and I'm sure it means Lancel, not Jaime.  I think it's a retcon on the part of the show writers to have first cousins off limits.  The far greater issues are the murder and the infidelity.  But where is it acceptable in our world for first cousins to have sex? (All jokes about hillbillies aside.)

 

In  my country is completely legal and acceptable (not very usual, though) and  as far as I know, Catholics can have a religious marriage if they ask for some  kind of permission.  Tbh, I think it's legal almost everywhere.

[Rockstar99435]

The problem is if he was a family member or a friend, he would have been less likely to betray them. The Starks were courteous to him, and Robb was very close to him, but he was a ward. That's just how it worked - the Starks wouldn't have known how to treat him as anything else even if they'd wanted to. This basic fact riddled him with insecurity and ultimately led him to betrayal. 

 

I imagine someone just starting the show would watch these episodes and think Theon lashed out because Jon took his favorite cloak.

 

I thought having noble kids raised by other nobles was pretty normal in Westeros and that it's part of creating alliances between houses. Ned, Robert, and Littlefinger were all fostered in the Vale. Before the events of the book, there was the whole question of who would foster Sweet Robin with Stannis and Tywin wanting him because it guaranteed alliance with the Vale. 

[BlackberryJam]

The FM was out of power for a long time, that was Targaryen work, right? And Targs married brother to sister. So, what I'm saying is perhaps the FM's thoughts on incest are stricter than those of the Seven and the traditions of Westeros. Hell, everyone was skipping along merrily drinking wine until the FM came along and people aren't saying, "Why is the FM anti-wine? Wine was fine before, other people drank wine, wine was fine, everyone was doing it, how can the FM be anti-wine?"

[Starving Writer]

I enjoyed the episode, especially Hardhome but Arya's plot seems to be so superfluous.  I like the character but really what's the point here.  Kind of hoping that was the end for the season for her unless they somehow ties things back to the main story because otherwise what's the point.

 

Arya is going to kill Trant, which will free up a spot on the Kingsguard for Ser Robert Strong to occupy just in time for Cersei's trail by combat.  

 

Also, Arya's Faceless Man training is going to come into play at some point in the end game.  She's going to kill somebody important to the plot.  We just don't know who at this point.  

[Artsda]

That was epic! I was glued to the screen for the battle scenes.

 

I love Jon's story and his wanting to bring on a united battle front to fight the walkers is so true. He's got one sword. Ned's sword ended up melted has one with Brienne who is trying to protect Sansa and the other Tommen got handed down upon Joffery's death. 

 

Love the Dany/Tyrion scenes, and poor Jorah. 

 

Cersai is so getting what she deserves. 

[nodorothyparker]

Yes, Was it Qyburn who listed her charges?  Incest was among them and I'm sure it means Lancel, not Jaime.  I think it's a retcon on the part of the show writers to have first cousins off limits.  The far greater issues are the murder and the infidelity.  But where is it acceptable in our world for first cousins to have sex?  (All jokes about hillbillies aside.)

 

First cousin marriage is legal in quite a few states here in the U.S. Medieval nobility only seemed to care about laws of consanguinity when it worked to get them in or out of strategic marriages.  See Eleanor of Aquitaine throwing over Louis VII for Henry II even though she was pretty much equally related to both of them.

 

It wouldn't surprise me to see the faith going after something that had been accepted as normal before.  We know one of the side benefits of the Targaryns disarming them in the first place was that they really couldn't say boo about all their brother and sister marrying that went on for centuries.

[FemmyV]

talk of "King Crow" I'm now wondering if there might be a bit more to the visions of the empty throne we've been shown... because its not ACTUALLY empty... there's SNOW on it).

Is it not obvious, considering the way Jon's character is developing? Leadership skills? Check. Combat? Check. Making allies? Check. So far he's only warred against Wildlings so we don't have too much of him re: battlefield strategy. The only big missing thing at this point is, he has no desire for the Iron Throne.

Edited June 2, 2015 by FemmyV

[Ambrosefolly]

I thought having noble kids raised by other nobles was pretty normal in Westeros and that it's part of creating alliances between houses. Ned, Robert, and Littlefinger were all fostered in the Vale. Before the events of the book, there was the whole question of who would foster Sweet Robin with Stannis and Tywin wanting him because it guaranteed alliance with the Vale. 

But in those instances, the families willingly did this. Balon hates the Starks for killing his older sons and taking his younger one. There was a certain amount of naivety on both Robb and Theon part, thinking because they thought themselves as brothers Balon would be bygones or that he was anything like Ned.

 

So did the Night King just decided to kill everyone at that point to make one? It seems that the wildlings were just chillin' at Hardhome for a good long while and 10 minutes after the Night's Watch show up, he decides to take the wildlings, when they were ready to get out of dodge.

 

I can't believe it, but the wildlings deaths made me sad. Maybe because wildling woman was so awesome and was so normal when she was seeing her girls off. Or maybe it is the knowledge that had the strongest genetic link to the First Men, unlike those game playing assholes in the Seven Kingdoms. 

[The Mighty Peanut]

I think what I loved so much about Tyrion and Dany's conversation is that there was no mention or reference to Tyrion being a dwarf. Like he said -- he's been on trial for being a dwarf his entire life. His family thinks he's a curse and strangers think he has a lucky dwarf dick. He's transported in crates like luggage and slavers see him as a novelty to sell at a discount alongside a "real" man.

The fact that Dany appeared to immediately recognize him as someone to take seriously was so refreshing...and I have had a rocky imaginary relationship with Dany's decision making at times. For his part, Tyrion never condescended to her or acted fatherly, which can't be said for Jorah or Selmy, and he doesn't worship her like the Unsullied. I don't know, I guess I'm just tickled by how natural it was for them to fall into a relationship as actual equals.

Edited June 1, 2015 by The Mighty Peanut

[nksarmi]

In  my country is completely legal and acceptable (not very usual, though) and  as far as I know, Catholics can have a religious marriage if they ask for some  kind of permission.  Tbh, I think it's legal almost everywhere.

 

25 US states ban marriage between first cousins (I would have thought the number was higher to be honest!) and 6 states only allow it under certain circumstances.  It has largely fallen out of practice here so that is why many of us assume the reference to incest is Lancel.

[derriere]

It's not good for Bran or Rickon's longevity that Sansa knows they're alive. She's managed to get a staggering number of people (and a direwolf) killed already.

[proserpina65]

Re: Incest. I don't  understand the acusation. Having sex with your first cousin is acceptable in our world and in Westeros: Lysa wanted Sansa to get married to Robin.

 

Keep in mind that Lysa was whackadoodle, so that may not actually mean much.  I know in the books there are other examples of first cousins marrying, but I'm not sure if it's come up on the show.  I guess we'll find out more when we get to Cersei's trial.

[Oscirus]

I assume the incest is a case of their piling on charges. Just because other people are doing it doesn't mean that its not illegal.

 

I get how Tyrion got most of his info. But how did he know that Dany hated Hizdar?

 

Also what's the timeline on this episode? Unless Dany kept Jorah and Tyrion jailed for a bit, It would appear at worst it would be one day from the last episode yet the fact that Kevan made a trip from Castle Rock to Kings Landing and is already running the king's council says otherwise.

[BlackberryJam]

I am at this point convinced that each set of stories is running at a different time. Myrcella is in Dorne for years. Gilly's baby isn't even walking. Tyrion arrives in Essos within a couple days of Tywin's death. The timing just jumps all over and until we see the stories converge, I just can't put in that much effort into using one story to judge the time line of the other.

[Knuckles]

Just another thought on the incest charge...Lancel has completely turned against Cersei: I'm thinking of his confrontation with her several episodes back. He is totally committed to the Sparrow and the Faith Militant. As a former bedmate of Cersei, I can't believe he doesn't know about her incest with Jaime, heck, even Bronn takes it as common knowledge. The Sparrow is playing for high stakes, I think he is going to de-throne Tommen, and undo the queenships of Cersei and Margaery both.

That takes down two great Houses at once, and leaves him and his followers in power in KL.

And on cousins marrying, if that is legal anywhere in the US, I'm shocked. It's an invitation to genetic meltdowns. 

[SeanC]

And on cousins marrying, if that is legal anywhere in the US, I'm shocked. It's an invitation to genetic meltdowns. 

First cousin marriage is not really a big deal, unless your families have a lot of prior close connections.  It's legal in most of the world, though not common in the West anymore.

Edited June 1, 2015 by SeanC

[Tryangle]

So it's looking like Sansa will be the one to reunite the Starks. Going into speculation, I suspect that Sansa meets up with Stannis and tells him about her brothers which will lead to his sending Davos on that mission. Though I do wonder why Jon didn't tell Stannis about them since he knows they're alive. 

 

Did Jon ever notice that it was Summer and Shaggydog that helped out when he was attacked by his wildling compatriots?

[Chris24601]

Is it not obvious, considering the way Jon's character is developing? Leadership skills? Check. Combat? Check. So far he's only warred against Wildlings so we don't have too much of him re: battlefield strategy. The only big missing thing at this point is, he has no desire for the Iron Throne.

Oh, its definitely deliberate and essentially calls back to the likes of Cincinnatus and George Washington who were extremely egalitarian for their time periods, took power only reluctantly and were then willing to give it back as soon as the crisis had passed... basically the exemplars of leadership as service to his people (unlike so many others who want to rule the people).

 

Provided he follows through on saving the world from the Walkers without getting himself killed I could easily see the survivors proclaiming him their king the same way the men of the Night's Watch elected him their leader despite him never seeking the position... much to the consternation of any surviving claiments.

 

In that sense I almost hope that the hint drops that Jon might be the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna (which would give him a stronger claim to the throne than Dany) end up being red-herrings and he IS just Ned's bastard because it just makes everyone else trying to use blood right for their claim seem even pettier (though if Jon IS Dany's nephew that might be enough to save him from Dany's dragons... because "I have [insert overwhelming military advantage here] and you don't" is 9/10th of rulership throughout most of history).

[nksarmi]

Just another thought on the incest charge...Lancel has completely turned against Cersei: I'm thinking of his confrontation with her several episodes back. He is totally committed to the Sparrow and the Faith Militant. As a former bedmate of Cersei, I can't believe he doesn't know about her incest with Jaime, heck, even Bronn takes it as common knowledge. The Sparrow is playing for high stakes, I think he is going to de-throne Tommen, and undo the queenships of Cersei and Margaery both.

That takes down two great Houses at once, and leaves him and his followers in power in KL.

And on cousins marrying, if that is legal anywhere in the US, I'm shocked. It's an invitation to genetic meltdowns. 

I know - it's just odd with the way we think these days.  It was common in the Antebellum South (think Gone With the Wind) but I couldn't imaging that being on the table now a days.  Frankly, I was shocked when I did a Google search that it was only illegal in about half the US states. I suppose there is a wide-range of genetic variety these days in the US so it wouldn't be as much of an issue as it once was.  I mean, I can think of one family where the brother married a first-generation Greek and the sister married a second-generation Cuban so the cousins would definitely have a wider gene pool, but still it's just odd. I couldn't imagine it with my cousins and we are actually half-cousins only sharing one common grandparent.

 

ETA: In regards to what Lancel knows about Jamie and Cersei - I can't remember if this made it into the show or not, but I swear I recall someone (perhaps Tyrion) threatening Lancel with what Jamie would think when he gets back to KL and finds out that Lancel has been boffing Cersei and Lancel looked petrified.  Now I realize that could just be Jamie being an over-protective brother, but it could also very much be insinuating that Jamie would kill the man sleeping with his "girl."  Add that to people yelling at Tommen and I would think there is at least a hint that the High Sparrow might go after her for Jamie. 

 

The only problem I see with the HS taking down Tommen is that Stannis then becomes the heir on Westerous, but the HS can't be happy about him worshiping the Lord of Light.  Unless of course, the HS intends to seize power for himself and rule like a Pope.  But that seems like the kind of thing that wouldn't work very well if he wants to keep the 7 Kingdoms united.  I really don't know what he envisions being the end result of bringing these great families down.

Edited June 1, 2015 by nksarmi

[Helena Dax]

 

 

In that sense I almost hope that the hint drops that Jon might be the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna (which would give him a stronger claim to the throne than Dany) 

 

Not sure about that. Jon's illegitimate and Dany isn't. 

[Winnief]

Jon might not be illegitimate.  Targaryen Kings in the past took multiple wives, (including Aegon the Conqueror,) so it's entirely possible that Rhaegar married Lyanna which would make Jon a true born heir. 

 

In any event, its looking increasingly important that Jon has dragon riding genes, and by god we need those fire breathing, flying, lizards to get big and get to Westeros already. 

[Constantinople]

...and really, you guys thought that Valyrian steel wasn't dragon steel?

 

 

It wasn't until last night that I learned there was even any debate about this. It seemed totally straightforward to me..

But what does dragon steel really mean?

Does it mean the Iron Throne is potentially a source of Valyrian steel since one of Aerys's dragons was used to forge it?

[hacman00]

Ok, Show.  Now that you went through the trouble of showing the audience how important Valyrian Steel is do you think you could finally explain how Bran's would be assassin got his hands on a knife made out of that incredibly rare metal? 

[Avaleigh]

Ok, Show.  Now that you went through the trouble of showing the audience how important Valyrian Steel is do you think you could finally explain how Bran's would be assassin got his hands on a knife made out of that incredibly rare metal?

Did the show not give us verification that this was Joffrey's dumbass idea?

[MadMouse]

Jon might not be illegitimate.  Targaryen Kings in the past took multiple wives, (including Aegon the Conqueror,) so it's entirely possible that Rhaegar married Lyanna which would make Jon a true born heir. 

 

In any event, its looking increasingly important that Jon has dragon riding genes, and by god we need those fire breathing, flying, lizards to get big and get to Westeros already. 

 

And don't forget the fact Northerners marry in front of Weirwoods and who can conveniently see through them?

[Winnief]

Great analysis here...

 

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/06/why-the-game-of-thrones-matters-on-game-of-thrones/comments/#disqus

 

Or in other words were it not for the suckiness of the Lannister's, the Seven Kingdoms might be in a much, MUCH better position to defend themselves against what's coming.  Like by mobilizing troops, scraping together every last bit of dragon glass, having Maesters in all the major libraries start looking for any info that can be found about the White Walkers,  etc, etc. But as it stands, the White Walkers are now so strong, and the Realm so weakened, I'm worried whether even the dragons will be enough. 

[JodhaBai]

Who was that actor who played the Wildling woman warrior? That was an amazing performance. 15 minutes on air and I came to care for her. Her face still haunts me when she was looking at the children wights.

 

She played one of the leads in the Danish series Borgen.   A fantastic show, btw.   

[Winnief]

She was also in Pitch Perfect 2.

[SeanC]

Did the show not give us verification that this was Joffrey's dumbass idea?

No, that was never brought up on the show.

[hacman00]

Did the show not give us verification that this was Joffrey's dumbass idea?

Nope.  Not that it was a big deal.  It only started the whole damn war.

[meep.meep]

Jon might not be illegitimate.  Targaryen Kings in the past took multiple wives, (including Aegon the Conqueror,) so it's entirely possible that Rhaegar married Lyanna which would make Jon a true born heir. 

 

 

Married or not, if Rhaegar died before his father, which seems to be true, then the Targareon heir becomes one of his two surviving siblings.  If Westeros works like most of medieval Europe that is.  And since Ned thought that Stannis should be king if Cersei's children weren't fathered by Robert, I think that is the case.

 

I liked production throwing in a cat crossing the road just as Arya came around with her cockles and mussels cart.

[Winnief]

Married or not, if Rhaegar died before his father, which seems to be true, then the Targareon heir becomes one of his two surviving siblings.

 

Actually no.  The line of succession passes to the children of the first born child.  Younger siblings inherit only if their elder siblings died childless or those children die too.  (Cue all the 'wicked uncle' storylines in fairy tales.)  Rhaegar's children (including Jon) are ahead of Rhaegar's little sister.  But Dany might not agree with that especially since Jon's legitimacy/paternity haven't yet been proven.

 

Succession wise, I admit the whole thing's a bit messy, (especially since Dany has the dragons,) which is a possible argument for a dynastic marriage between Dany/Jon to wrap the matter up neatly.  So while I don't like Jon/Dany as a match myself, I can certainly see the political reasoning for why it might happen. 

[nksarmi]

I still fully expect Dany to take either two husbands with all three of them being dragonriders OR for her to take none.  I still don't know if she will live or die before this is all over or if Jon will for that matter.  I guess it all depends on if they are taking a "this has all happened before, it will all happen again" approach in which case we would believe that Jon, Dany, and some yet unknown character (perhaps Tyrion?) will rule as a threesome.  Or the end might be the crumbling of all monarchies with the wildling approach taking over and the ruler(s) of Westerous become "elected" rather than based on lineage (not sure who might rule if this is the case, but it sure as hell better not be Littlefinger damn it!).  I think seeds for both endings have been planted to date and without the sixth book, I think we're just clueless at this point.

[Jean]

Who knew Jon Snow would end up with the most interesting story and he's carrying it pretty well.  Now that this story is ramping up, it's taking a lot away from the King's Landing stuff. I'm loving that Cersei is finally getting her comeuppance but I don't really care anymore either. I

  

Anyone else disappointed with the Tyrion and Dany scene? I don't think they had any chemistry together and something about their banter was off. The words were there so that's not the problem but the timing or rhythm was off or something. I've been waiting for their meeting so long maybe expectations were too high. 

[Helena Dax]

I'd love Dany  on the Iron Throne, but if  she can't have kids, Westeros would probably face a new civil war after her death. 

[apollonia666]

I just have to say this because this thread is making me crazy: The mindless undead people on Game of Thrones are called wights, NOT walkers. The scary leader dudes on the bone horses who create the wights are White Walkers. The mindless undead people on The Walking Dead are just plain walkers.