General True Crime Shows

[ridethemaverick]

I want to wring Mac's neck for not listening to his wife.

[nokat]

Oh, Mac and Muff, it was there, plain and simple. I think Mac's friend said it best, you got your wife killed.  He was so arrogant, and she knew not to trust this guy. She wanted to leave and he didn't listen.
 

[Lisa418722]

The one on Mack and Muff was really interesting because I had read And the Sea Will Tell and watched the mini-series way back when.  But if Mack had listened to Muff and left when the other guys did, they would have lived.  
The other Dark Waters episode that got me was Dan North, the one that wanted to sail - was it the world or the Caribbean?  When I heard his dog yelp, I yelped as well. 

[nokat]

32 minutes ago, Lisa418722 said:

The one on Mack and Muff was really interesting because I had read And the Sea Will Tell and watched the mini-series way back when.  But if Mack had listened to Muff and left when the other guys did, they would have lived.  
The other Dark Waters episode that got me was Dan North, the one that wanted to sail - was it the world or the Caribbean?  When I heard his dog yelp, I yelped as well.

I think I know what episode you mean.
 

[Tardislass]

I've been watching The Investigator on Netflix, it's a British crime show that takes a look at a cold crime murder. I must admit that the most fascinating thing is the female investigator has one style shirt in almost every color. It's a bit long and usually involves the disappearance/murder of young women.

[atlantaloves]

To Tardislass: Oh, the Investigator is wonderful. It's just my "cuppa". They just released the second season which I just started last night. I'll tell you that the first season was FANTASTIC. Enjoy! The Brits really know how to work a cold case. 

[auntjess]

Let me again recommend ATL Homicide on TV1.  The more I've watched, the more I like it.
 

[SunnyBeBe]

51 minutes ago, auntjess said:

Let me again recommend ATL Homicide on TV1.  The more I've watched, the more I like it.
 

I don't think that I get that channel on Spectrum cable.   I haven't been able to find it, however, I do see that it's available On Demand on Spectrum,.....so, I'll try to check it out that way. 

Edited August 20, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[LexieLily]

Deadly Women premieres on Labor Day, Monday 9/3, at 2 PM, according to my Guide. That seems an odd time.

[SunnyBeBe]

I'm not sure if anyone caught the documentary on Pam Smart.  She's still serving a life sentence for murder.  She allegedly got her teen lover to kill her husband.  If you want a little something to supplement, you might check out this movie that follows  the story pretty closely. .  It's called To Die For and stars Nicole Kidman. (Smart was not pleased with the performance, but, I found it riveting.   It's really her best performance, imo.  VERY entertaining.  Joaquin Phoenix plays her teen lover (victim).

 

https://people.com/crime/pamela-smart-upset-about-nicole-kidmans-portrayal-in-to-die-for/

[Coffeewinewater]

4 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I'm not sure if anyone caught the documentary on Pam Smart.  She's still serving a life sentence for murder.  She allegedly got her teen lover to kill her husband.  If you want a little something to supplement, you might check out this movie that follows  the story pretty closely. .  It's called To Die For and stars Nicole Kidman. (Smart was not pleased with the performance, but, I found it riveting.   It's really her best performance, imo.  VERY entertaining.  Joaquin Phoenix plays her teen lover (victim).

 

 

https://people.com/crime/pamela-smart-upset-about-nicole-kidmans-portrayal-in-to-die-for/

Pam Smart's case is fascinating.  I've watched many shows about her case it really is a case I don't get tired of watching. 

To Die For. Is a great novie. Joaquin Phoenix's dancing will give you a fit of giggles lol.  Nicole Kidman's best performance in a movie.

[SunnyBeBe]

1 minute ago, Coffeewinewater said:

Pam Smart's case is fascinating.  I've watched many shows about her case it really is a case I don't get tired of watching. 

To Die For. Is a great novie. Joaquin Phoenix's dancing will give you a fit of giggles lol.  Nicole Kidman's best performance in a movie.

I totally agree. I actually purchased the movie, when DVD's were popular.  It's a serious subject, but, is still so entertaining and amusing. It may make you a Nicole Kidman fan.  lol

[hoosiermom]

I am pissed that Khloé Kardashian is invading our wonderful ID channel! She will be producing the series Twisted Sisters. I don’t even know if it will be any good but geeze, why can’t we have nice things without the Kardashians being involved? I try to avoid them at all costs!

[auntjess]

1 hour ago, hoosiermom said:

I am pissed that Khloé Kardashian is invading our wonderful ID channel! She will be producing the series Twisted Sisters. I don’t even know if it will be any good but geeze, why can’t we have nice things without the Kardashians being involved? I try to avoid them at all costs!

I've been seeing this in the promos, and feel the same.
I've always been prejudiced against people whose name is misspelled.

[nokat]

On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 1:27 PM, Tardislass said:

I've been watching The Investigator on Netflix, it's a British crime show that takes a look at a cold crime murder. I must admit that the most fascinating thing is the female investigator has one style shirt in almost every color. It's a bit long and usually involves the disappearance/murder of young women.

Heehee. But you do tend to find something that works and buy a lot of it. If I find a shirt that doesn't make me look like a bag of potatoes, I buy more.

 

Edited August 22, 2018 by nokat

[funky-rat]

18 hours ago, Coffeewinewater said:

Pam Smart's case is fascinating.  I've watched many shows about her case it really is a case I don't get tired of watching. 

To Die For. Is a great novie. Joaquin Phoenix's dancing will give you a fit of giggles lol.  Nicole Kidman's best performance in a movie.

 

18 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I totally agree. I actually purchased the movie, when DVD's were popular.  It's a serious subject, but, is still so entertaining and amusing. It may make you a Nicole Kidman fan.  lol

I loved "To Die For".  I appreciate camp, and this movie had camp (I also love the HBO made movie about the Texas Cheerleader mom murder attempt - Holly Hunter and Swoozie Kurtz were awesome in that, and it had camp to the hilt).  Ileana Douglas was great in "To Die For" and I, in particular, love the ending.

[Coffeewinewater]

49 minutes ago, funky-rat said:

 

I loved "To Die For".  I appreciate camp, and this movie had camp (I also love the HBO made movie about the Texas Cheerleader mom murder attempt - Holly Hunter and Swoozie Kurtz were awesome in that, and it had camp to the hilt).  Ileana Douglas was great in "To Die For" and I, in particular, love the ending.

I never watched the Holly Hunter version , was it recent?  I remember watching the Lesley Ann Warren version years ago . It was either a lifetime movie or a movie of the week on one of the networks ,lol anyone remember those?

Just Googled it 1993...how did I miss it lol.

Edited August 22, 2018 by Coffeewinewater

[SunnyBeBe]

47 minutes ago, funky-rat said:

 

I loved "To Die For".  I appreciate camp, and this movie had camp (I also love the HBO made movie about the Texas Cheerleader mom murder attempt - Holly Hunter and Swoozie Kurtz were awesome in that, and it had camp to the hilt).  Ileana Douglas was great in "To Die For" and I, in particular, love the ending.

OMG!  Holly Hunter in The Positively True Adventures of the Alleged Texas Cheerleadering Murdering Mom was a masterpiece mini series!  It got a bunch of Emmys too. It was based on the actual story of Wanda Holloway.  And what a character she was. Holly at her finest.  

[funky-rat]

21 minutes ago, Coffeewinewater said:

I never watched the Holly Hunter version , was it recent?  I remember watching the Lesley Ann Warren version years ago . It was either a lifetime movie or a movie of the week on one of the networks ,lol anyone remember those?

Just Googled it 1993...how did I miss it lol.

 

It was exclusive to HBO - it was one of their movies from their own production department.  It was all over HBO for YEARS afterward.  I stopped paying for it a while back, but they may still be playing it, lol.  I'm sure you can find it - Sunnybebe has the full title in the quote below.  It's really worth watching.

8 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

OMG!  Holly Hunter in The Positively True Adventures of the Alleged Texas Cheerleadering Murdering Mom was a masterpiece mini series!  It got a bunch of Emmys too. It was based on the actual story of Wanda Holloway.  And what a character she was. Holly at her finest.  

I recall that case (it was when I was in high school) and so I jumped on that movie when HBO aired it because it looked like it was right up my alley, and it was.  I loved that it was so campy because that case was so campy.  I loved the BSOJ's at the end, and I loved that it didn't make Verna Heath the sympathetic character she tried to make herself out to be (not that she deserved to die, mind you, but she wasn't a martyr either).

Edited August 22, 2018 by funky-rat
Continuity

[SunnyBeBe]

That one with Holly and To Die For are both funny movies, despite their serious criminal subject matter.  Both made me LOL quite a bit. 

[auntjess]

After seeing this for the umpteenth time, can we get people to realize something?  People rarely throw mannequins in bodies of water, or bury them in the woods or desert, or dismember them and toss the parts in dumpsters.
It's a body!
Thank you.

Edited August 23, 2018 by auntjess

[SunnyBeBe]

Reasonable Doubt was certainly amusing last night. It was about the case of Patricia Wright, who, along with a co-defendant was found guilty of the murder of her former husband, who was a driver for Barry Gordy.  Pat was a talent scout. Both were successful and ran in the same circles of the Jackson Family, Barry Gordy, etc. 

I hope someone else saw it, as I'm eager to get another's take on this case.  I was all over the place on it.  The police officers didn't seem that impressed with the evidence at all, but, there seemed to be other indicators that this woman may by guilty.  I was wondering if the inmate really did have cancer.....was that documented?  I mean, the only real word they have about that was the inmate, who sure seemed rather surly.   ALSO, WHY didn't the investigators examine the DEATH CERTIFICATE of the victim?  It would have listed if the victim suffered from a liver disease that would have killed him in 60 days.  They didn't even mention it!  I don't understand that at all.  

If the inmate really is that ill, I wonder if there's time to get her out, even by clemency, before she passes away.  I read that her violent charges may prevent her from getting clemency.  It's mentioned in the article below.  But, also it seems that the inmate may have been representing that she has months to live for a long time. Hmmm...

https://www.investigationdiscovery.com/tv-shows/reasonable-doubt/full-episodes/a-dying-plea

https://www.bustle.com/p/is-patricia-wright-still-in-prison-in-2018-her-case-is-full-of-twists-turns-10152783

Edited August 23, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[Fable]

7 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I hope someone else saw it, as I'm eager to get another's take on this case.  I was all over the place on it.  The police officers didn't seem that impressed with the evidence at all, but, there seemed to be other indicators that this woman may by guilty.  I was wondering if the inmate really did have cancer.....was that documented?  I mean, the only real word they have about that was the inmate, who sure seemed rather surly.   ALSO, WHY didn't the investigators examine the DEATH CERTIFICATE of the victim?  It would have listed if the victim suffered from a liver disease that would have killed him in 60 days.  They didn't even mention it!  I don't understand that at all.  

Reasonable Doubt:  I didn’t think the evidence against her was strong enough to warrant a conviction.  The fact that so much evidence was lost gave me a lot of pause.  Human error is one thing, but that much evidence screams shady.  Then, there is the witness testimony from her brother that hardly seems credible.  That being said, there is still the co-defendant who claims their involvement.  I agree with and can’t wrap my head around the fact that there seems to be no evidence of her husband’s liver cancer.  The case being a homicide, there was most assuredly an autopsy, and there is no way that would not have been in the ME’s report. 

[SunnyBeBe]

Exactly.  The death certificate would certainly have indicated advanced liver disease.  They are are available to the public.  You just have to request it. 

The polygraph of the brother who now says that he saw nothing indicated deception, so, I suppose that means that when he says that he saw nothing, that that contention is also false?? So, it seems he lied when he said he saw her go into the trailer with the deceased man and he's lying when he says he didn't see her go into the trailer with the deceased man.....OMG.  That's messed up. 

Edited August 23, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[galleta]

14 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Reasonable Doubt was certainly amusing last night. It was about the case of Patricia Wright, who, along with a co-defendant was found guilty of the murder of her former husband, who was a driver for Barry Gordy.  Pat was a talent scout. Both were successful and ran in the same circles of the Jackson Family, Barry Gordy, etc. 

I hope someone else saw it, as I'm eager to get another's take on this case.  I was all over the place on it.  The police officers didn't seem that impressed with the evidence at all, but, there seemed to be other indicators that this woman may by guilty.  I was wondering if the inmate really did have cancer.....was that documented?  I mean, the only real word they have about that was the inmate, who sure seemed rather surly.   ALSO, WHY didn't the investigators examine the DEATH CERTIFICATE of the victim?  It would have listed if the victim suffered from a liver disease that would have killed him in 60 days.  They didn't even mention it!  I don't understand that at all.  

If the inmate really is that ill, I wonder if there's time to get her out, even by clemency, before she passes away.  I read that her violent charges may prevent her from getting clemency.  It's mentioned in the article below.  But, also it seems that the inmate may have been representing that she has months to live for a long time. Hmmm...

https://www.investigationdiscovery.com/tv-shows/reasonable-doubt/full-episodes/a-dying-plea

https://www.bustle.com/p/is-patricia-wright-still-in-prison-in-2018-her-case-is-full-of-twists-turns-10152783

I saw it and was very intrigued by it. At first the sister and daughter protrayed a very loving sister and mother. After meeting the pathological liar brother, learning about the psychological profile of Patricia, and hearing her interview - clearly that family is very, very dysfunctional. As the show went on, the sister seemed a little off too. I genuinely feel for the daughter though.  I think the liver cancer story was made up after she was arrested. Clearly it wasn't mentioned in the autopsy and over 10 years after his death, I'm sure there were no medical records and she seemed to easily influence her family. Definitely a weird case. 

[Koalagirl]

On 8/17/2018 at 8:09 AM, auntjess said:

I've started watching ATL Homicide, on TV1, and recommend it.
https://tvone.tv/show/atl-homicide/

ETA:  Just watched a Snapped on the Whitehead twins, the Georgia case where the teen twins murdered their mother.
I learned a lot about the background, that I don't remember knowing from other shows that featured this case.
At the moment, I don't see it on the schedule again, but if you see it, it's worth watching.

I watched it and knew they were guilty from the getgo when they gave the detective more info than he asked for during the initial interview.  Which ended up being their downfall in the end.  BTW I hate it enough when parents give their twins rhyming names, but these were particularly unfortunately named:  Jasmiyah and Tasmiyah. 

[SunnyBeBe]

The twin girls murdering their mom was one of those things that most people could have seen coming a mile away.  Their behavior had huge warning lights, but, no one seemed to heed them.  The mother's approach was to continue to tolerate them and to allow their arguments to escalate. Such a tragic thing for all involved. 

http://murderpedia.org/female.W/w/whitehead-sisters.htm

[configdotsys]

I remember the Pam (who spelled her name Pame to be special) case and trial and was fascinated by it. For those interested, there were two books written about the case: one was called Deadly Lessons by Ken Englade and is a fast read with some, but not too many details. The other is called Teach Me to Kill by Steven Sawicki. That second book was really good and went into more about their relationship. There was a made for TV movie about the case in which Chad Allen played the killer Billy Flynn. 

It was so obvious that she set all of this up and to see her to this day adamant that she had nothing to do with makes me want to punch her in the face.

[auntjess]

On 8/25/2018 at 10:22 AM, SunnyBeBe said:

Their behavior had huge warning lights, but, no one seemed to heed them.  The mother's approach was to continue to tolerate them and to allow their arguments to escalate. Such a tragic thing for all involved. 

But this is what's different in the Snapped.  It indicates that the grandmother let them do as they pleased, but mom was trying to reel them in, and they were rebelling to that.
And there was also that she was partying when trying to get them to stop, and they saw a double standard, but she was trying, and I hadn't seen that indicated in any of the other shows on the case.

Edited August 26, 2018 by auntjess

[SunnyBeBe]

Last night there was another riveting episode of The Disappearance of Crystal Rogers.  When the female host was interviewing the lady counsel woman, or whoever she was, WHY didn't she ask her WHY she thought police didn't really properly search, process and preserve Crystal's car!!!  OMG....This city lady kept saying that there just wasn't any evidence on the case, but, she glossed right over how the police didn't seem too concerned with any evidence that could have helped find out whoever took her.  I just don't understand why the host lady didn't ask. 

THEN, the city counsel lady has the audacity to defend Crystal's live in boyfriend's grandmother as a wonderful citizen and respected member in the community and brags how the woman is so great AND defends how a grandmother would certainly DEFEND their adult grandchild....OMG...lady, I do think it's her duty to speak the truth and not defend a killer. It's actually a crime to cover up evidence of a crime and to dispose of property and impede a criminal investigation.   PLUS, grandmother had sold a car that she had loaned to grandson and that was seen near Crystal's car the night she disappeared. When police went to look at the car, grandma had sold it to someone out of state.  I call that actively helping someone.  And, I don't think grandmother gets a pass when Crystal is still missing and her grandson was the last one to see her. 

That town is turning out to be a cesspool.  I don't think it's likely to get straightened out, unless out of state, unconnected law enforcement or the FBI go in undercover and root out the criminals from the bottom all the way to the top. 

[auntjess]

Familial DNA testing.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/08/27/thousands-submitted-dna-to-police-to-help-solve-a-1998-dutch-boys-killing-one-man-was-conspicuously-missing/?utm_term=.03f007ecd779

[kathyk24]

Anyone see Evil Lives Here tonight? I thought it was the best episode so far. I felt sorry for Michael wanting to love his mother and finding  out that she was evil.

[Annber03]

5 minutes ago, kathyk24 said:

Anyone see Evil Lives Here tonight? I thought it was the best episode so far. I felt sorry for Michael wanting to love his mother and finding  out that she was evil.

Yes. He actually had to excuse himself at one point, the poor guy :(. The fact that he can find forgiveness for her even after all she did is...wow. 

Stories about kids learning their parents are violent criminals are some of the hardest ones to watch. 

[One Tough Cookie]

Anyone watch he Darlie Routie show the other night? I started out thinking she was right whee she   belongs, but I wouldn't be comfortable giving her the death penalty.  Please excuse any typo, I have one broken hand and one sprained

 

I'd love to hear everyone's opinion this case.. 

Edited August 28, 2018 by One Tough Cookie

[One Tough Cookie]

On 8/18/2018 at 12:59 AM, ButterQueen said:

Oh no!!  How horrible.

Was she at the bottom of her stairs?

 

re Muff and Mike.Vincent Buglioisi wrote an excruciatingly long book about the woman who was charged and acquitted

Edited August 28, 2018 by One Tough Cookie

[tobeannounced]

3 hours ago, One Tough Cookie said:

Was she at the bottom of her stairs?

 

re Muff and Mike.Vincent Buglioisi wrote an excruciatingly long book about the woman who was charged and acquitted

 

I bought the book the other day. Bugliosi co-wrote it. The first part, which I assume was written by the co-author, is really engrossing. The second part where all the legal stuff comes in, which is obviously Bugliosi, is so verbose. I've read other books by him, and he LOVES the sound of his own voice. I'm swiping through a lot of pages at this point to get to the meat. If you love detailed explanations of legal defenses, you may enjoy his part of the book.

Edited August 28, 2018 by tobeannounced

[walnutqueen]

8 hours ago, kathyk24 said:

Anyone see Evil Lives Here tonight? I thought it was the best episode so far. I felt sorry for Michael wanting to love his mother and finding  out that she was evil.

 

8 hours ago, Annber03 said:

Yes. He actually had to excuse himself at one point, the poor guy :(. The fact that he can find forgiveness for her even after all she did is...wow. 

Stories about kids learning their parents are violent criminals are some of the hardest ones to watch. 

That was just gut wrenching to watch.  My heart went out to that poor kid, and to the hurt and somewhat damaged man he has become.  It goes to show how resilient children are - they can, and do, survive the most horrific circumstances, and somehow still manage to get out of bed in the morning.

 

5 hours ago, One Tough Cookie said:

Anyone watch he Darlie Routie show the other night? I started out thinking she was right whee she   belongs, but I wouldn't be comfortable giving her the death penalty.  Please excuse any typo, I have one broken hand and one sprained

 

I'd love to hear everyone's opinion this case.. 

I didn't watch, but I do want to send healing thoughts your way, @One Tough Cookie. 

[LexieLily]

I'm not sure that it fits here because it's not true crime, not really, but does/did anyone watch the series Something's Killing Me on HLN?

[One Tough Cookie]

thank you Walnut Queen...it's been one tough summer.

Edited August 28, 2018 by One Tough Cookie

[SunnyBeBe]

2 hours ago, LexieLily said:

I'm not sure that it fits here because it's not true crime, not really, but does/did anyone watch the series Something's Killing Me on HLN?

I've seen a portion of one episode.  I did see something about an upcoming one that looked interesting. It may have already aired. I think it was about a mystery illness killing people in Chicago.  

Ref. Post upthread about Darlie Routier.  I posted upthread about a special series that was so full of personal statements of her family and friends that was put out there as fact, that I had to stop watching.  I like to keep an open mind though.  I'm open to the discovery of new facts, but, not biased people's opinions put forth as fact.  I can't believe they thought that was okay. 

[LexieLily]

26 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I've seen a portion of one episode.  I did see something about an upcoming one that looked interesting. It may have already aired. I think it was about a mystery illness killing people in Chicago.  

Each "season" only has six episodes and I think that one already aired. I haven't seen it yet.

[auntjess]

3 hours ago, LexieLily said:

I'm not sure that it fits here because it's not true crime, not really, but does/did anyone watch the series Something's Killing Me on HLN?

It's generally medical, at least the few I've seen.

[Scarlett45]

Has anyone seen Mommy Dead & Dearest? Is this the right forum?

 

https://www.hbo.com/documentaries/mommy-dead-and-dearest

[walnutqueen]

8 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Has anyone seen Mommy Dead & Dearest? Is this the right forum?

 

https://www.hbo.com/documentaries/mommy-dead-and-dearest

Yes, I saw it some time ago.  It also has a thread in the HBO Documentaries forum here:  http://forums.previously.tv/topic/53270-mommy-dead-and-dearest/?page=1

I think one (or more) of the other true crime shows covered the story as well, but I can't remember which one (20/20? Dateline? 48 Hours?).

Edited August 29, 2018 by walnutqueen
added info

[Josette]

11 hours ago, auntjess said:

14 hours ago, LexieLily said:

'm not sure that it fits here because it's not true crime, not really, but does/did anyone watch the series Something's Killing Me on HLN?

It's generally medical, at least the few I've seen.

 It varies. I've seen all of this season.  They approach each case as a medical mystery, but one was about the murder of Autumn Klein.  This last episode was about the Tylenol murders.

[Vivigirl10]

On ‎8‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 3:45 AM, One Tough Cookie said:

Anyone watch he Darlie Routie show the other night? I started out thinking she was right whee she   belongs, but I wouldn't be comfortable giving her the death penalty.

I am so torn over Darlie.  There's the physical evidence but then I just cannot wrap myself around her killing her children.  I know that women do, but what was her motivation?  I'm stuck firmly in the middle.  It's an uncomfortable case for sure. 

[auntjess]

15 hours ago, Josette said:

t varies. I've seen all of this season.  They approach each case as a medical mystery, but one was about the murder of Autumn Klein.  This last episode was about the Tylenol murders.

Oh, the one I remember was Munchausen by proxy.

[funky-rat]

19 hours ago, Kiki620 said:

I am so torn over Darlie.  There's the physical evidence but then I just cannot wrap myself around her killing her children.  I know that women do, but what was her motivation?  I'm stuck firmly in the middle.  It's an uncomfortable case for sure. 

Yeah, I know what you mean.  There's debate amongst professionals (not just friends/family) over a lot of the stuff in the case, and it never made sense to me either way - it doesn't make sense a random intruder broke in to their home and killed them just because, and it doesn't really make sense she killed her kids either.  I know they gave the excuse that they were running out of money, but killing two of her kids doesn't seem to help that situation - total their life insurance was $10,000, far less than what their debts were.  Killing her husband would make more sense - especially if he had a good life insurance policy.  I mentioned once when this case was brought up that the only way I could explain her doing it would be Psychotic Break considering the largely circumstantial evidence seems to go that way, but I'm sometimes iffy on that.  I know about the diary entry, but it's fairly vague, and could mean lots of other things.  Someone once put forth a theory that her husband hired someone to stage a break-in for insurance money, and it went wrong, and that I could buy, but I don't know how true that is.  I know some issue came over the wording of her medical treatment, and the use of the word "superficial".  I do think the "birthday party" was much ado about nothing.  I've see far stranger behavior from people I know who have lost loved ones to natural causes, and I do believe that the footage was heavily edited, and I have a problem in general with people using the old "They didn't act like someone should act" line.  We all act differently.  Innocent people have been convicted for crap like that.  I do believe her case was muddied by being somewhat close in timeframe to the Susan Smith case, and that her jury was "tainted" by being moved to a town notorious for high conviction rates and death penalty rulings.  I do know they found a number of prints - some bloody - in the house that don't belong to anyone living there, and they've denied her new hearings for that.  And some of their other "solid" evidence (cutting the screen, the blood under the glass, etc) has other solid legit explanations.  And it does bug me that the policeman said that he made up his mind in 20 minutes that she was guilty.  That's just poor.  So I do waffle on this case.  I don't rely on what her friends and family say - I discard that completely, but I do know that legal wrangling exists (changing venues for iffy reasons, refusing to look at narratives that don't fit what they feel might have happened, coaching witnesses (like the hospital staff), etc).  And some of the science used to convict her has later been proven to be iffy.  I was 100% sure the Ramsay's killed their kid, and some of what happened still perplexes me (the ransom note, mainly), but when I saw Lou Smit show how easily an intruder could have done it and show solid evidence to back up a lot of what he said, I began to waffle as well.  

[SunnyBeBe]

Good points, Funky-rat.  I think that an unbiased documentary on Routier would be amusing. The mini series a few months ago was actually propaganda, imo.  It just wasn't accurate with all her family talking about how she almost died and other things as fact, that was their opinion.  I actually read part of the trial transcript of Dr. Santos who testified that her wound was superficial and that they went into the operating room to explore and see what, if any damage done, but, it was categorized as superficial and he described the technical reasons why. I'll see if I can find the link.  I'm not sure if I can post it, here. If you like, PM me and I'll send it to you. 

Ref. the Ramsey murder.  Did you see the multi part documentary on that last year, where a team of specialists from around the world took the case apart, bit by bit?  I found that well done. They had rare interviews of those who knew them well, who had never spoken before.  And the 911 police dispatcher who had never been questioned before.  They revealed how the DA had lied and said that there was no indictment against John and Patsy, when there had been. He had kept it secret and the grand jury members were bound to keep silent by their oath, so, it took years before that became known.  So much BS that had been put out there about that case that were lies, too. This group didn't have any agenda and even if you don't believe their final conclusion, it was clear that there was no intruder from their experts and analysis. They also addressed the note with experts and it made sense to me.

I would be interested in the piece you describe by Lou Smit. Was that recent? I like to keep an open mind and see new things, though. 

Edited September 1, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[auntjess]

The Perfect Murder, about the beauty queen and Whidbey Island murder, left me confused about a motive, until I looked the case up.
Apparently there were things that they couldn't say, in the show. 
It's still a muddle, after reading more on it, but here are a couple of articles that may help some.
 

Spoiler

http://archive.seattleweekly.com/2011-11-16/news/peggy-sue-thomas-drop-dead-gorgeous/
http://truecrimediscussions.blogspot.com/2017/01/the-murder-of-russel-douglas.html
http://www.southwhidbeyrecord.com/news/documents-show-victims-wife-is-suspect-in-murder/