S05.E07: The Gift

[Bats27]

Exactly.  They may very well have shot the scene as consensual but the last thing we hear is Cersei saying "No no no."  Most of that scene looked like an out and out rape.

And it would have been SO EASY to fix.  Just change some of the dialogue, or how the scene is shot, to make it much more clear that this is a messed-up but still consensual act between two messed-up people who are grief-stricken.  The scene would have still been creepy because it was a brother/sister screwing near where their son's corpse was laying, but at least there wouldn't be a rape controversy.  It wouldn't have been hard to do at all, so how did NO ONE on set notice/consider this?

[that one guy]

And it would have been SO EASY to fix.  Just change some of the dialogue, or how the scene is shot, to make it much more clear that this is a messed-up but still consensual act between two messed-up people who are grief-stricken.

 

Based on interviews with the cast, I think that scene was longer when filmed, with more affirmative consent from Cersei at the end, but it was cut for time with disastrous effect.

 

Based on the scene in prison between Bronn and Baby Sand Spice, I'm pretty sure Bronn is gonna be Show Oakheart. Which is sad because I love the actor. Oh well,, we'll always have Ripper Street. And they finally let him sing! He used to be a pop star, I'm stunned it took 5 seasons.

 

Jorah the Andal sure made short work of the pit slaves. That slaver should have asked for more money.

[InsertWordHere]

Based on the scene in prison between Bronn and Baby Sand Spice, I'm pretty sure Bronn is gonna be Show Oakheart. Which is sad because I love the actor. Oh well,, we'll always have Ripper Street. And they finally let him sing! He used to be a pop star, I'm stunned it took 5 seasons.

 

I believe he also sang Rains of Castamere before the battle of the Blackwater. He has a great voice. 

[vesperholly]

Myrcella has been in Dorne "for years", and Gilly's baby is still only a few months old. Nope. This really starts to bug me.

 

I was about to reply that Myrcella has been in Dorne since early in S1 and Gilly wasn't pregnant then, but I looked it up and Gilly was pregnant in S1 - and didn't even have the baby until S3. FFS!

[ElizaD]

Season 1: you should have known Tysha was a whore, women don't want sex right after being rescued from attempted rape.

Season 5: let's have the Sam/Gilly sex scene right after he rescues her from attempted rape.

 

Show Sansa really is Book Jeyne, an isolated sex slave, with the only difference being that she's trying to escape. They could have made her more of a Jeyne/Manderly merge and emphasized the politics, but no, let's just have her stuck in a room and taken out for a repeat of her season 1 finale. There's only three episodes left and since Sansa is a captive with no opportunity to mess with the heads of Roose/Walda/Myranda, her only achievement will likely be getting Theon to confess that her brothers live and somehow signaling her rescuers.

 

Dany and Tyrion meeting, which should have been a major moment, fell flat and the big moment was the one everyone already knew about, Cersei's arrest (it's my personal impression that the most talked about storylines, for good or bad, are still Winterfell and King's Landing even though people have been waiting for Dany/Tyrion for ages). I've praised the overall quality of the cast, but watching Jonathan Pryce, I couldn't help but feel that he makes the rest look like TV actors in the old, less than complimentary sense of the term. The High Sparrow is perfectly believable as a man capable of knocking down Olenna and trapping Cersei. I think he's more intimidating than Tywin, who was predictable in his hardness.

 

The new Myrcella doesn't seem like a significantly better actress than the extra who used to play her, but at least this week Obara/Nymeria shared what has been Bronn's best contribution to this plot: eyerolling at the ridiculousness going on. That little response to Tyene's game did more character-building and implied past history better than anything else in previous Dornish scenes. Dorne is B-movie, but compared to the dreary misery of other plots, it's starting to be so bad it's good. Tyene's scene was straight out of pulp fantasy - exotic hottie demonstrates her power by showing her boobs to the hero (who is far less attractive yet somehow still sexy to her, dear reader).

[Kelda Feegle]

About the only thing worth seeing was Jonathan Pryce and Lena Headey - and even that was marred by my wondering what the heck Littlefinger possibly could have to do with Lancel getting religion and confessing to the High Sparrow, and me also wondering why Cersei would bring Margaery an eminently throwable bowl of venison.

 

I read that scene as being simply there to allow Cersei to snark that the venison was day-old left-overs, to pull that polite and caring on the surface but smug bitch all the way manner that we see regularly.

[Holmbo]

Was anyone else disappointed that the slave auction scene was not in valyrian? It was in the books right? It would have been great to have that scene as a reveal that Tyrion knows that language.

I would make a joke about Dinklage refusing to speak another language because he's American but it doesn't really fit in this show because the only other American actor spoke basically nothing but Dothraki for an entire season.

[Oscirus]

I

was about to reply that Myrcella has been in Dorne since early in S1 and Gilly wasn't pregnant then, but I looked it up and Gilly was pregnant in S1 - and didn't even have the baby until S3. FFS!

 

Actually she went to Dorne in season two after Tyrion outted Pycelle as a mole. 

She should probably thank her lucky stars that Varys wasn't the mole, otherwise she'd be married to Reek/ in Ramsey's orbit at the moment.

 

Was anyone else disappointed that the slave auction scene was not in valyrian? It was in the books right? It would have been great to have that scene as a reveal that Tyrion knows that language.

 

What language was the fortune teller that Tyrion saw, speaking? I'm not being a smart ass with that question. I legit don't know.

 

 

This stuff about Sansa regressing is strange to me. I get that people don't like seeing Sansa play a victim, but unlike Brienne or even Arya, she has no way of defending herself.  If you're a woman and not royalty which the starks haven't been since season one, not trained to fight, and you're raised the way Sansa was, you're liable to be a victim.  I know there's a desire to see Sansa fight back and avoid all the nastiness but realistically, what can she really do? She's playing the game the best way she can. I actually think she's playing a good game.

 

For all this talk about the writers not liking Sansa, she's easily had the most time spent on her story this year, the all important Theon transformation is focused on whether or not she can cause it to happen. In many ways, she's a very intriguing character. A girl who is raised to be royalty who loses everything and gets stripped to the bone.  Yet despite this, she won't stop fighting. What's  more compelling then that?

[Hecate7]

And this storyline merrily follows along. It's not about anything Ramsay does to Theon or to Sansa. It's about what Theon doesn't do for Sansa. It's about Sansa being "strong" because she's put in a position by the show where she is abused night and day, because the idea of a woman being strong in any terms but how well she can take assault is apparently anathema.

 

Because Brienne, Arya, and Yara don't exist? And Olenna, Margaery, and Cersei are just made up? What about Gilly? She's the strongest woman on the show. Or Melisandre--she's pretty strong, too, and has never taken assault. Oh, and Danaerys. She may spend most of her time making insane mistakes, but she gets to make them precisely because she is strong. In fact, I don't think any other female character on the show is representing strength in the form Sansa is showing it.

 

Lyssa and Cat were both strong, too, in their way, and it was not measured in how either of them took assault. That's 11 women showing strength in other ways, to one woman showing it Sansa's way, and that's before figuring in the Sand Snakes, Ellaria, or Ygritte. So I think anathema is a pretty strong word to describe what is basically the default representation of women on the show.

[Holmbo]

What language was the fortune teller that Tyrion saw, speaking? I'm not being a smart ass with that question. I legit don't know.

I forgot about the red priestess. She was speaking valyrian IIRC. I still think that Tyrion speaking Valyrian would have been a surprise to many viewers. It would have been a great knowledge-is-power moment.

[elzin]

Something that occurred to me last night... So Jorah gets captured AND sold and no one does a cursory physical check of his body?  Like he was caught not far from where the Stonemen hang out and it's HIGHLY contagious and always fatal with very clear physical signs... no one bothers to "check his teeth" as it were?

[The Mormegil]

-That Tyene scene might have been the most pointless bit of nudity that we've gotten so far (and on this show, that's saying something).

 

 

 

Her slow working poison was working too slow as far as she was concerned. Her display was to get Bronn's blood pumping and the Poison working quicker. Once he knew for certain he was poisoned (rather than just being told with no actual physical symptons) he would take the antidote she offered and therefore be in her debt.

 

 

Excellent point and you know, I don't care if it was just to add a little more action having the NW who raped Craster's wives punished. That's still so much more than GRRM did.

 

GRRM did have some of the Mutineers/Rapists killed by Coldhands and eaten by a Direwolf (Summer).

[drainbead]

Nothing says consensual like arm bruises. And who didn't see her rape being used as a way to motivate Theon. Terrible writing in Winterfell. Speaking of rape again why the hell did they feel the need to create Gilly's almost rape? And then to transition that into her sex scene with Sam. Who doesn't like a little sexual assault to get them in the mood. 

 

Shallow pig man time. Hello Tyene, completely pointless but oh my.

 

I think they included the Gilly scene to give both Sam and Gilly a good reason to leave Castle Black and head to Oldtown!

 

I don't think so.  I think he sends her way with Davos.  And Davos and Shireen end up where Rickon is because they need to get to a large castle quickly and safely.  Some place where Shireen can be hidden if her father loses.  I think burning his daughter is a bridge too far for Stannis.  I really do. 

 

And I bet he sends her to Davos and they end up with Wyman Manderly next season.  One can only hope, anyway.

[SeanC]

I think they included the Gilly scene to give both Sam and Gilly a good reason to leave Castle Black and head to Oldtown!

Which they already had plenty of reason for, so it wasn't necessary.  Sam and Gilly have already pledged to stick together, and Sam will presumably go to Oldtown because Jon orders him to, like in the book.  So why would she stay if Sam was going?

[screamin]

No one is giving them a "free pass" but it's wrong, wrong, wrong, to make disgusting comments about the writers getting boners from horrific on-screen rape depictions. It's not one or the other. I can thoroughly dislike everything about the Sand Snakes without saying D&D are tittylovers. There is a difference between rational, reasoned criticism and personal bashing. 

 

The source material is a mess. Do I like every change? No. Do I understand every change? No. Do I know endgame and the fates of every major character? No. Can I say then that all of D&D's changes are meaningless and lazy writing then? No.

 

You can, however, point to specific instances of meaningless and lazy writing by D & D (see the pointless and exploitative life and death of Roz), and say with perfect truth that meaningless and lazy writing has happened before with this pair and can happen again - and, in fact, may be happening right now. And I don't think that observing that the showrunners are adding rape scenes that were either not in the books or were simply alluded to without being described on the page and showing the rapes onscreen in HD detail, and concluding from this that the showrunners may have done this as a deliberate policy, is NECESSARILY a personal attack on the showrunners. It may simply be that they're doing it because this what they think would cause increased publicity - and therefore bigger audience numbers. Which, even though it casts no aspersions on their own personal tastes, is still deeply tacky.

[Kobo Duram]

I don't think so.  I think he sends her way with Davos.  And Davos and Shireen end up where Rickon is because they need to get to a large castle quickly and safely.  Some place where Shireen can be hidden if her father loses.  I think burning his daughter is a bridge too far for Stannis.  I really do. 

 

Is it a bridge too far for Shireen's mother?

[Pete Martell]

Because Brienne, Arya, and Yara don't exist? And Olenna, Margaery, and Cersei are just made up? What about Gilly? She's the strongest woman on the show. Or Melisandre--she's pretty strong, too, and has never taken assault. Oh, and Danaerys. She may spend most of her time making insane mistakes, but she gets to make them precisely because she is strong. In fact, I don't think any other female character on the show is representing strength in the form Sansa is showing it.

 

Lyssa and Cat were both strong, too, in their way, and it was not measured in how either of them took assault. That's 11 women showing strength in other ways, to one woman showing it Sansa's way, and that's before figuring in the Sand Snakes, Ellaria, or Ygritte. So I think anathema is a pretty strong word to describe what is basically the default representation of women on the show.

 

As far as I can tell, Yara doesn't exist - she returned briefly to say Theon was dead to her and run away from dogs. I wouldn't say Lysa was presented as strong either, or Ellaria, or the Sand Snakes (most of whom are presented as irrational and needing to be kept in their place by Doran). Arya is strong, yes, but mostly feels like a blank slate on another show somewhere. Melisandre is interesting and unique, yes. Brienne is barely there and is a one-dimensional action figure. I've already shared my views on how I feel about the writing for Margaery and Olenna - I don't find either of them particularly strong, as the former blithely smirked her way into a prison cell because she assumed all she needed in life was to bed a naive, powerless boy king, and the latter basically left a kingdom to rot in the hands of people she knew were not strong or capable, mostly returning to call Cersei a whore and get her imprisoned.

 

Gilly is another character who was subjected to sexual assault in order to prove "strength." She couldn't have a first time with Sam on her own terms - it had to be contrasted to a near-rape so we'd be reminded of a "good" man compared to "bad" men, and presumably, be glad that Gilly was so glad she had a "good" man that she would show him her gratitude.

 

I never said every woman on the show was raped or nearly raped. I was talking about the Sansa story. I was talking about the idea from the show that this is strength and empowerment and playing the game - that we can only see this if she is raped, and that strength apparently just means calling your deeply unstable rapist a "bastard" and being lucky that he chooses to flay some bit player you don't care about, rather than tear you to pieces.

 

But if we go through most stories on the show in the last few years, do I think there are that many portrayals of strong women?

 

No, I don't. 

 

I've been put off by just how poor the writing for women this season has been, and I feel like it's getting worse and worse. And if Sansa is their idea of strength these days, no wonder.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Pete Martell

[screamin]

I thought the implication was that the innkeeper in Wintertown contacted the old woman on Brienne's behalf, through a network of Stark loyalists of which we've only seen a small portion.

The only reason the old woman got pinched is because she's the only person who's had access to Sansa, but she didn't give up the innkeeper or anyone else in their circle.

 

I agree that there must be other Stark sympathizers and go-betweens besides the old woman (RIP). But the fact remains that the person actually poised to ride to Sansa's rescue - the only actual warrior and muscle ready and willing to physically confront the Boltons - is one lone woman who isn't even a Northerner at all. It's also worth noting that this lone woman instigated the plan to contact and offer support to Sansa - which sort of implies that there was no Northerner with the will to step forward and do the same before Brienne came along. This is a far cry from the strength and the will of the Manderleys to aid the North and the Starks. IMO, cutting them out was a loss to the show.

Edited May 26, 2015 by screamin

[MrWhyt]

How can D&D say they love this Winterfell story when they've taken all the intrigue and tension out, and only kept the abused girl?

 

Because it's an adaptation and not a recreation. They may love the book story but feel it doesn't fit into the TV story.

[proserpina65]

I'm more that okay with that fake-out, I'm wildly relieved.  Nobody is safe on this show so when he got cut by a Sand Snake, given their love for poison, I thought another shocking death of a beloved character was headed our way.  Glad that wasn't the case.  Could have done without all the tit-gazing however.

I found that entire scene to be utterly pointless, unless at some time Bronn is going to team up with the Sand Snakes or something.  Otherwise it was just there for the boobs.  (And I say that as someone who hasn't been bothered by the gratuitous nudity up to this week.)

[proserpina65]

ETA:  I stayed out of the whole "rape culture" discussion but so help me if that red bitch talks Stannis the Mannis into burning his daughter I will be FURIOUS.

 

I've decided that THIS is where I would leave the show, if it happened.  Rape, torture, violence, depravity - eh, whatever.  But if anything happens to Shireen, I'm outta here.  At least Stannis told Mel to get out when she suggested it this time; I don't hold out a lot of hope that he'll stick to his guns if things go wrong on the march to Winterfell.

[Hanahope]

I saw the whole episode as a 'set up' episode:

 

Sam/Gilly getting set up to head to Old Towne

 

Sansa/Theon set up to escape Ramsay with Brienne set up to rescue

 

Davos/Shireen set up to find Rickon/escape Melisandre

 

Tyrion set up to be Dany's new advisor plus Jorah set up to make sure she gets out of Mereen quicker

 

Cersei set up for her walk of shame and/or potential use of Frankenmountain

 

Stanis set up to lose to the Boltons, at least at first until either the north rallies to help and/or the white walkers kill everyone.

[Avaleigh]

I've decided that THIS is where I would leave the show, if it happened.  Rape, torture, violence, depravity - eh, whatever.  But if anything happens to Shireen, I'm outta here.

There's no way that Stannis is going to let Shireen burn but I'm not entirely sure about Selyse. Selyse is so much of a fanatic that she might be able to be talked into thinking that this is Shireen's true purpose or something. 

 

I don't think Shireen is going to burn though. Davos will rescue her and she'll accompany him to wherever they go to search for Rickon. I think the shot of Selyse in the snow could be a fake out...or not. Maybe she was talking to Davos or one of the other men?

[hammaboo]

(I thought we had the Ramsay eats sausage scene in the book, in regards to after the Theon castration scene.)

 

I thought an episode called The Gift would be the storyline of what was in the previews for next week, where Jon goes to the Wildling/North of the Wall folk.  Instead there are other "gifts" given in this episode.

 

Yay Ghost.  It's nice to see you still have the touch.

 

With having Tyrian meet Dany in this ep, where it hasn't happened in the books, I am really wondering where they take her story line. 

[Notwisconsin]

With having Tyrian meet Dany in this ep, where it hasn't happened in the books, I am really wondering where they take her story line.

GRRM has given D&D and outline for the final two books, which means that we may actually have something like a Winds of Winter/Dream of Spring arc actually starting up, and season six being a mashup of the plotlines of the final four books. With only three episodes left, no way will we get the walk of shame this season.

[BlackberryJam]

Re: The Walk.

 

We are definitely getting it as there was a big hubbub about the initial filming location and there are photos of the filming floating around the internet.

[dr pepper]

If nothing else, I suppose the Gilly / Sam sex scene was in keeping with the episode's title/theme.

 

That makes sense in a disgusting sort of way. And of course, we have Tyrion as a gift to Dany. And more of the same as a gift to Sansa. And two queens as a gift to the Inquisition. And a sand snake neat with medicinal chaser as a gift to half the viewing audience. But still, it felt like false advertising that nothing was said about Stannis's homesteading offer in The Gift.

Edited May 26, 2015 by dr pepper

[dr pepper]

I lol at how tall and imposing one of the septas was. They had no fucks to give when it came to Cersei's threats it was great.

 

The show glosses over it, but remember the change in the makeup at the cathedral comes after the Peoples Crusade arrived in KL. The books let us know that among the refugees were a lot of rural clergy-- barefoot preachers and village wisewomen. These septas are long suffering peasants, not the third daughters of court families Cersei is used to.

[mac123x]

That makes sense in a disgusting sort of way. And of course, we have Tyrion as a gift to Dany. And more of the same as a gift to Sansa. And two queens as a gift to the Inquisition. And a sand snake neat with medicinal chaser as a gift to half the viewing audience. But still, it felt like false advertising that nothing was said about Stannis's homesteading off in The Gift.

 

I honestly thought it was a reference to "The Gift" from the Many-Faced god that the Faceless Men give, and that Arya would be getting stabby with Meryn Trant.  Then I noticed Maisie Williams wasn't in the opening credits so that went out the window.

[Calamity Jane]

OK, a question someone else asked but I haven't seen an answer to:  Didn't Dany say that the fighting pits would be open only to free fighters, no slaves?  So how do we have clearly enslaved fighters in front of Dany?  Or is she supposed to be fooled that they are free?  Was this addressed at all?  

[Avaleigh]

We saw both Tyrion and Jorah being paid a pittance. Maybe that's how the slavers get around it? 

[Helena Dax]

OK, a question someone else asked but I haven't seen an answer to:  Didn't Dany say that the fighting pits would be open only to free fighters, no slaves?  So how do we have clearly enslaved fighters in front of Dany?  Or is she supposed to be fooled that they are free?  Was this addressed at all?  

 

The guy who bought Tyrion  and Jorah gave them a coin, which was  supposed to be their  "salary". He told them that was all they were  going to get, or something like  that.

[Calamity Jane]

The guy who bought Tyrion  and Jorah gave them a coin, which was  supposed to be their  "salary". He told them that was all they were  going to get, or something like  that.

Thanks - totally missed that.  Wow, some "freedom."  How does that square with chains, I wonder?

[Avaleigh]

When that one tutor complained to Dany last season about how his life was better as a slave than a free man I wondered at the time why his master didn't just pay him a small wage if they were all so broken up about the situation. 

[Pogojoco]

I agree that there must be other Stark sympathizers and go-betweens besides the old woman (RIP). But the fact remains that the person actually poised to ride to Sansa's rescue - the only actual warrior and muscle ready and willing to physically confront the Boltons - is one lone woman who isn't even a Northerner at all. It's also worth noting that this lone woman instigated the plan to contact and offer support to Sansa - which sort of implies that there was no Northerner with the will to step forward and do the same before Brienne came along. This is a far cry from the strength and the will of the Manderleys to aid the North and the Starks. IMO, cutting them out was a loss to the show.

Plus, Wyman Manderly is such a dramatically rich character for the right actor to play. He could be a Falstaff type, putting on a show for the Boltons and Freys and be shrewd, calculating and ice cold as a flip side. 

 

And it's been pretty clear for a while that Sam and especially Gilly have no purpose at Castle Black. And I really doubt that would've been the first time Gilly had been threatened (her being the only female not attached to/protected by Stannis.)

 

Also, about the Sansa-Ramsey marriage, in The World of Ice and Fire book, GRRM puts out the Stark Family tree which goes back generations. Usually, oldest son becomes Lord of Winterfell (they marry a cousin or a bannerman), daughters are married off to bannerman and one son goes to the Wall. Stark bannermen like Manderly, Royce, Flint, Ryswell, Karstark. Not a single Bolton in many, many generations. 

Edited May 26, 2015 by Pogojoco

[benteen]

OK, a question someone else asked but I haven't seen an answer to:  Didn't Dany say that the fighting pits would be open only to free fighters, no slaves?  So how do we have clearly enslaved fighters in front of Dany?  Or is she supposed to be fooled that they are free?  Was this addressed at all?  

 

That's a good point.  They sure as hell weren't free men.

[Unknown poster]

That's a good point.  They sure as hell weren't free men.

We, the viewing audience know that, but Dany certainly doesn't. She's treating this whole thing as a necessary evil, and I doubt she's doing any sort of investigation. Short of actually leading out fighters in chains and collars, she won't know the difference.

[cheyz]

They are in prison with him (and it did amuse me that Jaime had a much nicer prison cell and Doran treated his nieces to some tough love).  In the books one of the Sand Snakes seduces a knight to help her steal Myrcella. He also thinks it is the right thing to do.  Bronn isn't idealistic, but if his goal is to get Myrcella out of the country and he gets some side action, that seems like a Bronn sort of thing to do. 

 

The eyerolling from the other sisters sort of made me think that this Sand Snake pulls this kind of crap all the time. 

 

I don't think Jaime is in prison, at least he wasn't in that scene. That looked like more of a reception room so he could meet with Myrcella and see that she was fine.

 

It seems like they are making Tyene be the only one who lived with Oberyn while growing up, so she's picked up his sexual style as well.

[ICantDoThatDave]

So Sam was clearly raped, right?  He had just been beaten severely, & was in no position to move, much less give consent, in his weakened state.  He passed out from his wounds just minues before!  Gilly obviously took advantage of his weakened state & lack of other friends (they even emphasized that point) to force herself on him.  It's weird that there's no outrage on Sam's behalf.  Must be because D&D are misandrists I suppose.

[Pete Martell]

For all this talk about the writers not liking Sansa, she's easily had the most time spent on her story this year, the all important Theon transformation is focused on whether or not she can cause it to happen. In many ways, she's a very intriguing character. A girl who is raised to be royalty who loses everything and gets stripped to the bone.  Yet despite this, she won't stop fighting. What's  more compelling then that?

 

A storyline I didn't already see a much better version of in seasons 1 and 2.

[Andromeda]

When that one tutor complained to Dany last season about how his life was better as a slave than a free man I wondered at the time why his master didn't just pay him a small wage if they were all so broken up about the situation. 

That bugged me to no end. Hello, pay him!! That's how you get the help without having slaves, durh.

[CherryMalotte]

Just rewatched the High Sparrow scene with Cercei before she gets taken away to her cell...the look he gives Cercei is bone chilling.  Pryce needs to have that included in the Emmy consideration clips that HBO will send - I know it's early for such talk but it's such a great performance, I'd so love  to see him get some award attention.

Edited May 27, 2015 by CherryMalotte

[Funzlerks]

So, why weren't Jorah and Tyrion stripped at the slave market? If everyone is obsessed with Dwarven cocks and fighting ability, you would think they would at least be in undergarments for the inspection. Would female actresses have been spared the indignity of at least implied nudity? Because Jorah's greyscale should definitely have been discovered. For an area with an epidemic, that part of Essos is really lax about basic precautions.

The High Sparrow and his followers don't seem so bad when Lannister and Tyrell bannermen are running around laying waste to soldierless villages in order to keep a bastard and his wife on the throne. It is like Mark Twain's quote about the two reigns of terror - nobody cares about the one that lasted a thousand years and was constructed and conceived in cold blood.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Funzlerks

[Dev F]

Plus, Wyman Manderly is such a dramatically rich character for the right actor to play. He could be a Falstaff type, putting on a show for the Boltons and Freys and be shrewd, calculating and ice cold as a flip side. 

 

But there is a problem, dramatically speaking, with introducing a completely new character this late in the game who serves as the prime mover of a storyline while the main characters stand on the sidelines and gawk. That's the exact thing the producers have attempted to avoid by replacing Jeyne with Sansa, sending Jaime to Dorne, giving Jorah greyscale, etc.

 

I still think it's possible that Manderly will make an appearance, considering they went to the trouble to dress up an extra as his son Wendel at the Red Wedding, but I'm sure his role will be substantially reimagined so he doesn't just put on a show for Ser Davos. Maybe Davos will have to sleuth out his true loyalties, instead of just getting everything explained to him at the end of the charade?

[loki567]

 

But there is a problem, dramatically speaking, with introducing a completely new character this late in the game who serves as the prime mover of a storyline while the main characters stand on the sidelines and gawk. That's the exact thing the producers have attempted to avoid by replacing Jeyne with Sansa, sending Jaime to Dorne, giving Jorah greyscale, etc.

 

But I gotta ask how many people remember Manderly before they read ADWD? I don't think it would have taken much to introduce the character, set him up, and then give us The North Remembers. And I almost think the greatness of that scene goes beyond the individual character of Manderly. That was the moment for me where I really started to appreciate the entire Northern culture and how they viewed the Boltons, the Freys and the Starks. I don't think that scene would have lost that much even with a new character introduced to the audience.

 

I found it to be the best moment of ADWD and thought it tied together the book's themes together beautifully. 

[gmk]

A storyline I didn't already see a much better version of in seasons 1 and 2.

I don't think it's the same storyline.  I think there's a very intentional parallel between Sansa in seasons 1/2 and Sansa now.  But I think the point of the parallel story is to highlight the differences, not the similarities.

 

Sansa has grown.  She's no longer the naive, spoiled child she was in earlier seasons.  She's trying to act -- to influence Theon, to sow discord among the Boltons, to thwart Myranda.  She stole a knife (or whatever it was).  Even just coming to Winterfell was ultimately her choice.

 

Granted, her actions have not been particularly successful -- yet.  But she's taking initiative, and that's far different than early seasons Sansa.  We still have plenty of time to see how it plays out.

[Elkins]

So, a week or two ago on the "Unpopular Opinions" thread, I wrote this:
 

1. I cheered when we were spared the second half of the Tysha story.
 
It was one of the things that annoyed me most in the books. Not only did it strike me as precisely the sort of overwrought angsty backstory that is favored by teenaged fanfic writers everywhere, but I also agree with Show!Shae: a girl who has just escaped being raped is highly unlikely to fall immediately into her rescuer's bed. Not, at any rate, in the world that exists outside of cheesy adolescent sex fantasies. (See also: Daenerys' wedding night.)

Yeah. So you can doubtless imagine my reaction to them doing with Gilly the exact same stupid thing that I was so pleased to believe they were indirectly denouncing through Shae. What the everliving fuck, writers?
 
Yes, that's right. We women are just wired funny that way. Attempted rape makes us horny! Totally true!
 
Blech.
 

What did Sansa pocket, was it a set of keys or a daggerish looking thing?

It looked to me like a small auger. Basically, a primitive hand drill. I'm hoping it will be used as a lockpick, or perhaps even for its intended purpose of drilling a hole, rather than as a weapon. We already have a whole boatload of female warriors in this story; I don't see any benefit in turning Sansa into one as well.
 

Whatever one says about the subject matter I am absolutely riveted during her scenes with Ramsay.

I am absolutely riveted by the entire Winterfell plotline this season. I find it intense, atmospheric, claustrophobic, gripping and dark. The character work seems fantastic to me, and I also think that it is visually just gorgeous. Definitely one of those "Huh. I guess I'm just...watching a very different show than all of these other people are somehow?" situations for me. Some of the interpretations I'm seeing I can't even find a way to connect to the show I've been watching. But eh, whatcha gonna do? Things just shake out that way sometimes.

My Unsullied housemates have only seen the first two episdoes so far. (They've decided they like this show much better binge-watched, so we've been storing up episodes to watch later.) I'm really curious to see what their reaction to the storyline is going to be.
 

Yikes Olenna, he's not impressed with quips or money.  He's a zealot.  You can tell she's at a loss as to how to deal with someone who isn't corrupt in the traditional sense.

 
She and Cersei certainly have that in common! I have loved watching Cersei talk to the High Sparrow this season. She gets this great expression on her face that I remember from all the way back in Season 1, when she often looked like that when speaking to Ned Stark. It's this "Surely you must have an ulterior motive, so why can't I figure out what it is? This is most intriguing!" expression. It cracked me up to find that Olenna was exactly the same as Cersei in her inability to figure out how to deal with someone who simply doesn't want any of the things she has to offer.
 

So, with Cersei locked up, the Small Council is down to Pycelle and Qyburn.  I'm curious if we'll get a scene between those two.

 
I desperately want Qyburn to give the next Small Council meeting a miss -- maybe he gets too caught up in dealing with FrankenGregor or something -- just so we can get a scene of Pycelle sitting all alone in the chamber, glancing around at all of the empty chairs and wondering how long he really needs to wait before he can leave.
 
A Qyburn and Pycelle scene would be great fun too.  Come on, writers! It's Julian Glover and Anton Lesser, for heaven's sake! Make them happy by writing them a nice juicy scene. Let them chew up the scenery a bit. C'mon, you know you want to...
 

Theon's selling out of Sansa made little sense since he wept during her rape.

 
I thought it made perfect sense. He's been horribly broken. Brainwashed. The poor bastard is way beyond Stockholm Syndrome; he's been worn down all the way to the point of identity loss. His ego has been shattered to such an extent that he can barely even imagine rebelling. He thinks of Ramsay as a force so unassailably powerful that when his sister came to rescue him, he couldn't perceive it as anything other than one of his master's tests. He loves Big Brother.
 
But that doesn't mean that he can't still empathize with Ramsay's other chew toys, or pity Sansa when he sees her being cruelly treated. In his own way, he actually did try to help her. When he earnestly warned her not to try to oppose Ramsay, that was him trying to help her. In his mind, he was giving her some really good advice there, because he knows all too well that "it can always get worse." He's just...not anywhere near ready yet to help Sansa in any way that she (or we) would consider very useful.
 
But I think he'll get there. I think Sansa will help him to find himself again. I agree with Pete Martell that Ramsay is deliberately pitting them against each other, but unlike Pete, I believe that they will thwart him. I don't read this story as one that is heading for utter despair. I just don't see any signs of that being the story. The story I see taking shape here is one of these two people helping each other, and by doing so saving themselves.

 

So Sam was clearly raped, right?

 

Oh dear.

 

Right, so I know this probably seemed like really pointed commentary to you when you were writing it, but you've chosen the one and only sex scene in this entire series in which consent was actually actively sought. Which makes it, well, not very pointed, I'm afraid. Rather blunt, in fact.

 

If you want to object to a woman raping a man on this show, Gilly isn't the rapist you're looking for.

 

Ygritte is.

 

[MadMouse]

As much as I want to see Stark loyalists I don't know how much it would work at this point. The idea that the Northern and Riverland nobility was butchered is something the show ignored and instead focused on the romance. So to have all these loyal Stark lords showing up would now would look like an ass pull. Of course from a TV perspective one Frey pie and them insulting the Boltons TV show viewers would probably be in love. So maybe it would work. 

[Holmbo]

Yeah. So you can doubtless imagine my reaction to them doing with Gilly the exact same stupid thing that I was so pleased to believe they were indirectly denouncing through Shae. What the everliving fuck, writers?

Yes, that's right. We women are just wired funny that way. Attempted rape makes us horny! Totally true!

Blech.

......

It looked to me like a small auger. Basically, a primitive hand drill. I'm hoping it will be used as a lockpick, or perhaps even for its intended purpose of drilling a hole, rather than as a weapon. We already have a whole boatload of female warriors in this story; I don't see any benefit in turning Sansa into one as well.

.....

I desperately want Qyburn to give the next Small Council meeting a miss -- maybe he gets too caught up in dealing with FrankenGregor or something -- just so we can get a scene of Pycelle sitting all alone in the chamber, glancing around at all of the empty chairs and wondering how long he really needs to wait before he can leave.

A Qyburn and Pycelle scene would be great fun too. Come on, writers! It's Julian Glover and Anton Lesser, for heaven's sake! Make them happy by writing them a nice juicy scene. Let them chew up the scenery a bit. C'mon, you know you want to...

The Gilly plot reminded me of the Pod prostitute joke from season 3. In the LF sexposition scene in season 1 the writers seemed to make fun of men who believes they can be so good at sex that they make the prostitute enjoy it. Then they do that exact thing in Pod's story.

I wasn't too bothered with the scene itself because I didn't feel sexual desire seemed to play much part in Gilly's motivation. But it does annoy me that the writers are not keeping consistent.

I agree that it would be interesting if the writers could think of some other route to go with Sansa rather than direct violence.

I also agree that a small council scene with only Pycelle and Qyburn or just the former would be hilarious. It's funny that Pycelle is nearly outliving the Lannisters. In a deleted scene with him and Tywin in season three he makes clear he don't expect to.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Holmbo

[Oscirus]

I was too distracted with the question of whether or not that they just foreshadowed Gilly's death. And if she does die, how will that affect Sam and his night watch vows? I will give the writers credit for making that scene so ... unsexy.