S05.E07: The Gift

[placate]

I'm just a bit sad that there is no Wyman Manderly and that the penultimate episode will be a contrived battle between Stannis and Roose.  It might be important or it might screw with my fanfic.  Balls in your court, show. 

[Pete Martell]

With Theon/Reek actively making the choice to make Sansa's life worse in this episode I thought that would at least quell the fears from those who were concerned that the story would be too much about Theon rescuing Sansa as opposed to Sansa helping herself.

 

If Ramsay is playing Joffrey's greatest hits then I think he's done a pretty good job of remixing it all to make them his own. 

 

I don't see a big difference, aside from the rape, and the show doesn't seem to take that very seriously. 

 

I've never believed the story has been about Theon or his "manpain," as some insisted, so that was never my objection (I notice some of the fans who were outraged over his "manpain" now seem more focused on making sure Sansa "flays" Theon/Reek than on anything Ramsay is actually doing to her, so I wonder if some fans care far more about hating Theon than being interested in Sansa). I just don't believe Sansa needed to be raped and beaten day after day in order to show us that she was strong. I don't see Sansa anymore.

 

But that's just me, and I realize I've already said it. I will stop now.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Pete Martell

[WearyTraveler]

I totally teared up at when Sam was doing the funeral service for Aemon.  Great delivery of those lines (and the music probably played a part too).  

 

Best part of the episode was seeing Ghost.

 

Dorne is ridiculous.

 

Cersei making empty threats that she will not be able to carry was fun.

 

Regarding the direction of the Sansa plot, next week's preview is up on youtube and it seems (spoiler fonting the preview, just in case) 

that she is continuing to work on breaking Reek's walls down so she can get at Theon. Might be an interesting journey

[Avaleigh]

I totally teared up at when Sam was doing the funeral service for Aemon.  Great delivery of those lines (and the music probably played a part too).  

 

Best part of the episode was seeing Ghost.

 

Dorne is ridiculous.

 

Cersei making empty threats that she will not be able to carry was fun.

 

Regarding the direction of the Sansa plot, next week's preview is up on youtube and it seems (spoiler fonting the preview, just in case) 

that she is continuing to work on breaking Reek's walls down so she can get at Theon. Might be an interesting journey

I didn't tear up but I definitely got a case of the feels. I also felt a pang when I could tell that Thorne was touched and then he had to go and kill it by reminding Sam that he doesn't really have any close friends left in the NW. 

 

I lol at how tall and imposing one of the septas was. They had no fucks to give when it came to Cersei's threats it was great.

 

Jaime sure does get a lot of time to think, doesn't he? Interesting that a Lannister gets a nicer cell than the Sand Snakes. 

[Helena Dax]

And get his blood pumping, get that poison moving through his veins.

 Exactly, that's what I thought too. Besides, she likes him and his songs. It was flirting too. 

 

Oh, Cersei, you had it  coming! HAHAHAHAHAHA  Sadly, you're going to be punished  by people I hate. 

 

Loved, LOVED, to see Tyrion and Daenerys together. Finally! I can't wait for next episode. I'm guessing Jorah's thinking Daenerys will want to execute Tyrion; that's the reason he's bringing a Lannister to her, isn't it? But of course, the fact that Tyrion killed Tywin may change things.  Should change things. Maybe Varys will send a letter too. 

 

If Stannis lets Mel kill Shireen, I'm done with him.

 

Oh, Reek... I didn't  trust him for a second. But Sansa... She still can do it. I don't  know what she  hid in her sleeve, but she is planning to do something and I like that.

[MadMouse]

I am a man, so I fully accept my reading of this to be faulty, but having a partner who's been abused and talking about it with her has given me some insight.

 

Gilly's been abused all her life with Craster raping her when he felt like it and now the crows seem to be after the same.

 

She kisses him briefly then goes back.  I doesn't seem to be out of a rush of desire, but more she chooses this for the first time, she chooses to have sex and and chooses who. It's not just a reward she doesn't submit she's in control she even asks if she's hurting him, which is a role reversal (I'm gonna be honest though given the track record I think my reading of the scene is perhaps overly optimistic but I hope that's there)

 

I think it could it easily be read that way but I just don't have faith in the writers being that nuanced. It gross that her attempted sexual assault pushed or gave her reason to sleep with Sam. They could have used anything else like Aemon's death but they chose that act to drive her. By itself I could say it was just a misstep in getting to that scene but in context of how the show has treated rape its problematic. And before people start saying that's how things are in this world. Yes I know and even if I didn't the show likes to remind us every chance they get. The issue is the aftermath to whatever trauma or misfortune happens to them and whether its believable. That's one of Martin's greatest strength as a writer and one of weakest on the show. 

[Missbusy2000]

Another week, another rape scene added in for shock value that was not in the books. I was willing to give a pass to the first few, but this is getting to be over the top. You know what would have been shocking? Lady Stoneheart. But she's a woman beyond fucking with and not at all sexual so of course they cut her out. Whaaaatever. 

[Haleth]

Lena was fantastic in the last scene.  She never lost her smirk but you could see the lightbulb go on in her head through her eyes as the High Sparrow talked about stripping her of her finery.  High time Cersei got caught up in her own plots. 

 

What wasn't good was the Dorne prison scene.  Really, show?  Were the gratuitous boob shots necessary?  Did it help Tyene's or Bronn's characterization? 

Edited May 25, 2015 by Haleth

[Jodithgrace]

Though why that old lady didn't think it was a good idea to light the candle herself is a question for the ages.

 

Perhaps she was caught doing exactly that. Sansa didn't mention the old lady to then, did she? I think she just said that she had friends in the North. After Theon ratted her out, Ramsay was on the lookout for anybody sneaking up to the broken tower with a candle.

[benteen]

Lena was fantastic in the last scene.  She never lost her smirk but you could see the lightbulb go on in her head through her eyes as the High Sparrow talked about stripping her of her finery.  High time Cersei got caught up in her own plots. 

 

What wasn't good was the Dorne prison scene.  Really, show?  Were the gratuitous boob shots necessary?  Did it help Tyene's or Bronn's characterization? 

 

Yeah, just the way Lena's face changed when the High Sparrow said that was great.  When given the right material, she has always delivered.

 

As psychotic as Book Ramsay is, he showed an amazing ability to improvise and stick to a long-term plan when he initial disguised himself as Reek in ACOK.  That was probably the most impressive thing he did in the books.

[SFoster21]

In the books, Tyrion is due to meet Dany with an army at his back for her. How much of a gift can he be? Hostage value? I can't see Dany trusting him to advise her right off the bat.

But there was finally snow!

Edited May 25, 2015 by SFoster21

[Sarah D. Bunting]

Just Give Me That Old-Time Religion // last night's coverage from Nick Rheinwald-Jones: http://previously.tv/game-of-thrones/just-give-me-that-old-time-religion/

[elzin]

Yeah they should have just stayed faithful to the books right?

Um... yes?  Adding non-book sexual assault against female characters two weeks in a row is not ok. We don't need sexual assault to get the point that Westeros is bad.  What happened to Gilly and Sansa is not in the books, so this is on D&D. Jeyne and Sansa are not interchangeable.

[Haleth]

I'm not ready to give up on the show because of the changes to the Sansa storyline, I'm willing to see how it plays out.  It's a storytelling trope that heroes always lose their mentors and end up isolated before tapping into their own skills, and I think this is where the writers have Sansa going.  Sansa isn't plot device Jeyne. She isn't cowering in her chamber, afraid to say or do anything to anger Ramsey.  She'll do something to free herself by the end of this season.  (It will be interesting if she ends up saving Theon instead of the other way around.)

 

Funny, when I saw the episode title was The Gift I thought it refered to Arya, yet that was the one storyline we didn't see last night.

 

What happened to Gilly and Sansa is not in the books, so this is on D&D.

 

Gilly's attack was to give Sam a reason to leave Castle Black.  Since Jon is away will it be Sam or Thorne that comes up with the idea to send Sam to the Citidel?

Edited May 25, 2015 by Haleth

[blixie]

 

How much of a gift can he be?

 

Dany has struggled for Good council, Jorah was her must trusted, and he betrayed her, he was replaced by Barristan who is now dead, I think she is anxious to have Inside Baseball on Westeros and we know Tyrion can tell her everything she needs to know about returning to there/making war on KL, and his having murdered his father (and hating his sister) are good tokens of loyalt. As happy as I am with this change, I'm less concerned about her "lack" of an army than I am about how often we heard in the books that the small folk are partial to the Targs and or a return of the Targs. I guess they think who needs political support when you have Dragons? And they could fairly easily and quickly introduce that Varys has delivered the Golden Company to her.

 

The fact that Cersei smirked to the very end ruined my satisfaction in her getting stripped of her finerys. IMO D&D continue to portray her as sympathetic, fuck that. Still glad it finally happened. 

 

Sansa's story continues to be gross and annoying. I am hoping people are right about Davos/Shireen splitting before the battle to go in search of Rickon, but how would they know he's alive or even where to look? Theon knows the boys aren't dead, but he doesn't know where they are.

[gemmalogical]

This episode felt like a clip show.

 

 

What wasn't good was the Dorne prison scene.  Really, show?  Were the gratuitous boob shots necessary?  Did it help Tyene's or Bronn's characterization?

I still expect Bronn to die, so perhaps this was an attempt to set him up as Tyene's creature in the same way that Oakheart was Arianne's creature. Stannis did drop all those anvils about the unreliability of sellswords. Dorne has been a complete clusterfuck - bad storytelling, the waste of two of the show's more appealing actors, the hijacking of Ellaria's brain, and lackluster to bad casting of new characters - not including Siddig who has had nothing much to do.

 

I hope Davos takes Shireen far away from Mel. Maybe they'll end up at Last Hearth and find Rickon.

 

The last 30 seconds almost saved the episode. Finally!

[mac123x]

What wasn't good was the Dorne prison scene.  Really, show?  Were the gratuitous boob shots necessary?  Did it help Tyene's or Bronn's characterization?

 

I find it funny that the Bland Snakes have been in 4-5 scenes and I don't think they've actually said Tyene's name on screen, unless it happened during that battle scene last week that I tuned out.

[patchwork]

I find it funny that the Bland Snakes have been in 4-5 scenes and I don't think they've actually said Tyene's name on screen, unless it happened during that battle scene last week that I tuned out.

 

I think they were referred to by name in that introduction scene on the beach but I could be wrong. 

[nksarmi]

I do not understand why people are getting so up in arms about the stuff with Gilly.  She was not raped, she was not assaulted, she was somewhat manhandled.  Was she going to be raped?  Maybe - hell probably - but are we really going to be pissed about near misses now?  The show has removed rapes that were in the books, so its not like they are just trying to brutalize women every chance they get.

 

I believe the scenes with Gilly and Sam were to remind the audience again that the NW is not largely made up of Sam's, Jon's, Aemon's, or Mormont's anymore.  It's also telling that the show has already killed off many of Jon's more "innocent" friends. They have made it more than clear in this episode that the Wall isn't safe for Gilly and Sam and I believe they will leave soon.  But this time, I wonder what their mission will be.  In the books Sam is taking knowledge that Dany might be the "prince that was promised" from Aemon to the Citidal.  I feel like the show hasn't been hitting the need for Dany to get her dragons to the Wall hard enough or making the audience feel what the real threat to Westerous is so I wonder if we will get more whitewalker drama in the next three episodes.

 

I also think the scene between Gilly is Sam was sweet and I fail to see why people care so much that she was "almost" raped a few hours earlier.  What Gilly was going through was relatively minor compared to what she likely had endured from her father.  The biggest stress for her in that situation was watching Sam being beaten.  She basically told him that in the future he should let her be raped rather than risk his life.  And there was certainly some time elapsed between the two scenes.  What I saw between Gilly and Sam was her looking at a man that had saved her life and her son's more than once and she was looking at him with love.  Not passion, not lust, not any great turn on - just pure love.  So she decided to express her feelings by making love to him.  I take zero issue with this and I don't see why so many are freaking out about it.

 

I do wonder about how they have changed the stuff at the wall with the red witch being with Stannis, not Jon, and who might be the one to save him. I think either they aren't going to do the stabbing or it isn't going to be like it was in the books.  Personally, I can see it being a stabbing that leaves him down, but he gets up and helps leads the NW against a whitewalker attack or something like that.  So at the end of the season, he's hurt but not necessarily dead.

[cambridgeguy]

 

I hope Davos takes Shireen far away from Mel. Maybe they'll end up at Last Hearth and find Rickon.

The Last Hearth is the northernmost castle so it actually does make sense that they'd end up there - Davos can't be wandering around in a never ending snowstorm indefinitely.  Davos is a navy man so I can see Stannis sending him away - you don't need an admiral to win a ground war.  I don't think it looks good for Stannis regardless but he's right.  If he falls back his mercenary army will desert him and he'll never convince the Iron Bank to give him more cash. 

 

Also, what is the point of casting Dr. Bashir if you are going to give him three minutes of screen time over the first seventy percent of the season?  He'd better have some decent scenes in what's left of the season.

[Funzlerks]

I thought the Gilly and Sam scene was sweet. It was Gilly's first time, too, in my books. I think it was unfortunate to have another rape (or almost rape) scene so close, but show Gilly is so much better than book Gilly that I don't mind.

[Le Renard]

This is the first season I feel is weaker than previous ones.

 

The Dorne storyline is terrible, I don't know where to start. Jaime is one of my favourite characters and they're just wasting him over there. I don't know what they're doing with Sansa. I'm tired of watching Dany fail at managing Mereem. The other storylines aren't bad but I'm not that excited about them either.

[jeansheridan]

The gratuitous nudity and sex doesn't usually bother me (it's not like we're talking about a civilized land here), but the sand snake one did. I get she needed to needle him some before giving him the antecdote, but the flashing was pretty unnecessary.  I don't get why she saved him though (besides narrative, what is her personal reason?).

They are in prison with him (and it did amuse me that Jaime had a much nicer prison cell and Doran treated his nieces to some tough love).  In the books one of the Sand Snakes seduces a knight to help her steal Myrcella. He also thinks it is the right thing to do.  Bronn isn't idealistic, but if his goal is to get Myrcella out of the country and he gets some side action, that seems like a Bronn sort of thing to do. 

 

The eyerolling from the other sisters sort of made me think that this Sand Snake pulls this kind of crap all the time. 

[screamin]

 Where the hell are you people getting this from? It looks like the show will be going the Sansa saves Theon route

I'm not a "you people", I'm just one person with an opinion. And my opinion is that the vibe is not tending toward "Sansa saves Theon." What resources does she have at this point, besides the dagger (?) she picked up, and (I'm willing to bet) won't be allowed to use effectively? She's raped every night and locked in a room all day, and apparently is only allowed contact with Theon, who's already betrayed her, and by that betrayal he got a nice old lady sympathetic to Sansa flayed. So even if she somehow got the upper hand despite these handicaps, I doubt she's going to WANT to save Theon that badly after that.

 

...Some people really do just want to find anything to bitch about. What the hell did people want? Sansa in the Vale? It wasn't popular in the books...

 

Was there an opinion poll on the subject? I'm not aware of it. All I personally know is that I liked Sansa in the Vale, staying under the radar, making friends and allies, and learning the politics she needs in order to eventually and credibly turn the tables on Littlefinger, that master politician, and backstab him.

 

Instead, to get Sansa to Winterfell, the showrunners had to make Littlefinger act continually and idiotically out of character - leaving Sansa, his valuable playing piece, entirely unprotected in the hands of a man well-known for betrayal and a son whose character he's entirely unaware of (even though a moment's research at Winterfell by bribing a servant would have shown that he's happily given to foolhardy rebellion-fomenting gestures like flaying lords for tax evasion because he thinks flaying is cool), in an area he knows is about to turn to a war zone, under the wildly optimistic assumption that Sansa will survive this unscathed. And if that weren't enough, we find that the "master plan" the showrunners attribute to Littlefinger is that LF wants to lead a military expedition to mop up the survivors of the Bolton-Baratheon battle and become Warden of the North. This is totally in violation of Littlefinger's character as the show itself had him explain it, as finding that he had no talent for combat and decided to limit himself to politicking behind the scenes (you remember that explanation, the one he delivered as a monologue in front of some gymnastic naked ladies?)

 

Worse, for me, because I like Sansa as a character, is that they made Sansa act idiotically to force her into Jeyne Poole's role. Littlefinger offers her the following plan:

1) Leave you entirely alone in the hands of the man who killed your family, and marry you off to his unknown son, and by the way a war is about to overtake Winterfell, but you'll be totally safe during it;

2)?????

3) Revenge!

 

....and instead of demanding details enough to make the plan make sense and flat-out refusing if it doesn't, she meekly agrees and goes as a brainless lamb to the slaughter. Sansa the Victim is Back! Now With 100% More Rape!

 

Anyway, as I was saying, I don't think the vibe of the show is indicative of Sansa Saves Theon. Right now, Brienne faithfully freezing her ass off while watching the tower seems to indicate that what will happen is that Sansa is Saved by her. (And just BTW, this seems to indicate that Brienne was the one who sent the old lady to begin with - which seems to prove that Northern resistance to the Boltons amounts to one old lady brave enough to pass along a message. The way the showrunners erased the badass Manderleys from the tale pisses me off.)

 

So Sansa Is Saved from her tormentors once again. But we've seen that story before, several times on this show, and IMO, it's getting tired. What I was really longing for was something different - Sansa Saves Herself. That's something we haven't seen on this show, and IMO that's what was happening in the Vale storyline that the showrunners casually discarded. And yes, I do resent that...because as I said, women saving and empowering themselves in this story are too rare already.

Edited May 25, 2015 by screamin

[Brn2bwild]

Aren't Roose and Ramsay under the impression that Littlefinger is coming back with an army from the Vale? Why is Roose allowing Ramsay to keep her prisoner? It didn't make sense when it happened to Jeyne and it makes even less sense when it's Sansa. Does Roose think this won't jeopardize his relationship with the Vale?

How can D&D say they love this Winterfell story when they've taken all the intrigue and tension out, and only kept the abused girl?

 

Seriously.  I miss the whole "trapped wedding party" storyline so much, with the festering resentment from the Northern lords and the random, (seemingly) unexplained deaths of nasty characters.

[Advance35]

So Sansa Is Saved from her tormentors once again. But we've seen that story before, several times on this show, and IMO, it's getting tired. What I was really longing for was something different - Sansa Saves Herself. That's something we haven't seen on this show, and IMO that's what was happening in the Vale storyline that the showrunners casually discarded. And yes, I do resent that...because as I said, women saving and empowering themselves in this story are too rare already.

 

 

Whoa, I do not get that from TWOW at all.  I don't think Sansa in the books thinks she NEEDS saving at this point, she's content to stay under the radar and follow LF's lead because he has come out ahead continuously thus far in the tale.   I don't think she's taking the lead on anything, I think she is LF's co-conspirator because they don't seem to work against her at present.   I like her chapter preview and I like what I'm seeing in the book version but I don't think she's all THAT impressive.   But again subjective so there is that.

 

But for all that people wanted the Northern Conspiracy, where should the show have taken the funding from.   Dorne and the Sand Snakes will be important per GRRM, Arya (fans would riot if she were gone, not me but she is popular), Dany, it would never happen, Jon, the same.   Too many characters were centered around Winterfell to nix it.   Roose, Ramsay, Theon to Littlefinger and Sansa in the Vale.   They could have had Ms. Turner sit out the season and had her political genius grow off screen but considering the kind of work she's getting these day's I have know doubt her agent has secured a lucrative salary (since contracts were recently negotiated) and the show probably wants her to earn it.   Is the Vale important?  We need TWOW to find out.     Since D&D are the ones that KNOW the ending and they saw fit to cut it, I'm assuming it's not pivotal.

[jeansheridan]

 

Lady Stoneheart. But she's a woman beyond fucking with and not at all sexual so of course they cut her out. Whaaaatever.

She was also incredibly boring.  Brienne is a much more exciting avenger.  Although I don't think she's long for Westeros.  I hope I'm wrong, but there it is. 

 

Totally different topic.  The show has been playing with the idea of names/identity all season.  Ayra needing to give up her identify to serve the Faceless God.  Lancel giving up his name to serve the High Sparrow.  The High Sparrow mildly commenting that his own title was given to him and sort of shrugging.  Jon Snow sticking to Jon Snow rather than accepting the Stark name.  Ramsey Snow gleefully accepting the Bolton name.  Sansa becoming a Stark again long enough to become a Bolton.  Theon/Reek still struggling with what he has become with hints that maybe some of the old Theon is still lurking.  Margaery asking Cersei what she should call her now.  Qyigburn (as dangerous as the High Sparrow in his own way) off-handedly joking that his name didn't matter.  The Queen of Thorns making an appearance (possibly the most dangerous name someone whose symbol is The Rose can muster really).  Jaime trying very unsuccessfully to hide his identity.  It's been going on all season. 

 

The power of names is very important usually in Western literature.  Nameless characters rarely have agency (I think of Mrs. DeWinter in Rebecca).  But what names are the most important?  The ones you choose (example--Jon Snow)?  The ones you earn?  (Dany seems to have earned a lot of her epic titles).  Maybe Sansa should have never tried to become a Stark again?  Although I think the show will stick to the usual trope and believe in the power of names.  That Sansa will gain agency as more and more Stark supporters emerge (hopefully).  Sansa was one Stark child who was eager to leave her family's home and marry into a new family (Jon Snow was eager to leave to make something of himself too) .  I think we're seeing her slowly realize that she has come home and home has power if she can figure out how to access it.  I think the problem is she was always the least Stark of the Starks.  She's the one without a wolf.  Maybe she really needs to become a Tully?  Or did they cover that last season? 

 

And then we get Tyrion striding out at the end of this show, announcing that he is a gift and this gift's name is Tyrion Lannister.    Tyrion uses his name as a shield yet again.  Of course it's only useful to him in the moment.  It's his quick brain that will really save him. 

Edited May 25, 2015 by jeansheridan

[DigitalCount]

I'm not sure why people are saying the nudity was gratuitous. It seemed, from the pointed questions about his arm and head every time she took off more clothing, that it was intended to "activate" the poison, since he'd been calmly sitting around in a dungeon for quite some time. I was actually surprised that she didn't state this outright, though from the posts here I almost wish she had.

[elzin]

I do not understand why people are getting so up in arms about the stuff with Gilly.  She was not raped, she was not assaulted, she was somewhat manhandled.  Was she going to be raped?  Maybe - hell probably - but are we really going to be pissed about near misses now? 

Yes we are.  It is legally assault by our definitions of TODAY (meaning it's generally assault in 2015 when anyone touches or obstructs you without your permission, sexually or not).  So she WAS assaulted by OUR rules and by our rules and mores, I am judging the writers for including this ON TOP OF ALL THE OTHERS.  This wasn't a one-time mis-step. It's gratuitous and gross, imo, and I think it's important to call the show out on its perpetuation of rape culture by using assault as its go-to for drama.

[screamin]

Whoa, I do not get that from TWOW at all.  I don't think Sansa in the books thinks she NEEDS saving at this point, she's content to stay under the radar and follow LF's lead because he has come out ahead continuously thus far in the tale.   I don't think she's taking the lead on anything, I think she is LF's co-conspirator because they don't seem to work against her at present.   I like her chapter preview and I like what I'm seeing in the book version but I don't think she's all THAT impressive.  

 

Oh, I agree that she isn't - right now. And I agree that she has currently resigned herself to LF being the best of a few bad options and is currently faithfully carrying out his designs as he explains them to her. But I think the narrative is also clearly giving us clues that Littlefinger will eventually ask her to do something that she won't want to do - like, say, look the other way when LF has Sweetrobin murdered, once Sansa has captured Harry and LF has no further need for Robin. I think that will be a crisis point for Sansa, a point where she must decide whether to use what she's learned to act against LF.

 

I think it's no coincidence that GRRM has scattered several useful characters around the Vale and had Sansa get to know them...Mya Stone, who seems brave and a good sort, unlikely to be corrupted...Lothar Brune, who likes Mya...even old Kettleblack Sr., who's been LF's faithful henchman till now, but might change his tune once he finds out that all three of his sons are in deep shit in KL while carrying out missions for LF, and LF is unlikely to want to try to rescue them at his behest. And also, now that Sansa is allowed to freely socialize and gossip with the gentry, she's much more likely to find out LF's role in the betrayal of her father. And you can't tell me there's no chance Myranda Royce just coincidentially dropped Jon Snow's name in conversation with Sansa and took no notice of Sansa's reaction. A whole lot of interesting stuff is about to go down in the Vale, IMO.

 

Of course, it takes some directorial effort to make politicking and backstabbing interesting. Many great movies have shown it can be done, but I think the showrunners are far more interested in battle scenes, sexual assault threats, and Technicolor flayed corpses, so they went for that instead, because there just hasn't been enough of that on the show. :(

[DigitalCount]

Yes we are.  It is legally assault by our definitions of TODAY (meaning it's generally assault in 2015 when anyone touches or obstructs you without your permission, sexually or not).  So she WAS assaulted by OUR rules and by our rules and mores, I am judging the writers for including this ON TOP OF ALL THE OTHERS.  This wasn't a one-time mis-step. It's gratuitous and gross, imo, and I think it's important to call the show out on its perpetuation of rape culture by using assault as its go-to for drama.

I dunno, this is a bit odd in an episode where a guy's blood pooled underneath him as he gagged for air after getting his neck perforated in the fighting pits

[nksarmi]

Yes we are.  It is legally assault by our definitions of TODAY (meaning it's generally assault in 2015 when anyone touches or obstructs you without your permission, sexually or not).  So she WAS assaulted by OUR rules and by our rules and mores, I am judging the writers for including this ON TOP OF ALL THE OTHERS.  This wasn't a one-time mis-step. It's gratuitous and gross, imo, and I think it's important to call the show out on its perpetuation of rape culture by using assault as its go-to for drama.

You know what, feel free, but I think it's getting to the point of ridiculousness.  This is a series of books where cannibalism is cheered.  Loads and loads of bad things happen in these books.  Many of them happen to completely innocent people - both men and women.  Some bad things happen to true villains and some disgusting characters are - at present - still prevailing. 

 

This is a story with few - very few - truly good characters.  It is a story where the characters we come to love are perpetually at risk for dying and where these is little hope that many of these people will have anything that resembles a "happy ending."  And those who do will not escape without inner and outer scars.

 

If we were talking about a different story, I could understand the infuriation some people are feeling.  But these characters are not living by OUR standards - they are living in a cruel world where rape isn't even the worst thing that can happen to a character.  What happened to Gilly was nothing in the grand scheme of what she has already endured and what many, many other characters on this show endure.  Find offense if you want - to each their own and all that.  But I think you are probably watching the wrong show if you want to rage at the writers over that and let it ruin the sweet scene that happened later between her and Sam.  Just my (perhaps unpopular?) opinion of course.

[loki567]

I'm not sure why people are saying the nudity was gratuitous. It seemed, from the pointed questions about his arm and head every time she took off more clothing, that it was intended to "activate" the poison, since he'd been calmly sitting around in a dungeon for quite some time. I was actually surprised that she didn't state this outright, though from the posts here I almost wish she had.

 

So she gets naked to activate a poison that a couple seconds later she decides to give him the antidote for? The only point of the scene was tits. 

[jjjmoss]

Well in real life if I knew someone had "only" gone through an attempted rape rather than an actual rape, would I "be pissed about near misses"? Yes, yes I would. 

 

Sprinkling in rape/the threat of rape as a way of adding flavor to each episode is icky, and yes especially if it's made up by writers who seem to have a terrible grasp on how to handle it.

[rollacoaster]

I was so glad to see Ghost, cuz Sam, bless his heart, just wasn't getting the job done.  My question is:  Where did Ghost go afterward?  He seemed to just....vanish.

[pon teeve]

I found the Sansa scenes deeply insulting. Ramsay is a butcher with no control. He rapes and tortures women. The show downplaying this because they need to give Sansa some moment of truth in between more raping and brutalizing feels dishonest to me. He would likely kill her. He's not a brooding dark prince. He's a monster.

 

I am likewise pretty tired of the "Sansa is victimized and powerless" storylines. But in fairness, I don't think the point is to make Ramsay a brooding dark prince or in any way admirable. The fact that he's a monster is driven home pretty consistently.

 

In fact, I think he's worse than Joffrey -- and is meant to be. Because while Joffrey was evil, he was also incompetent, cowardly and stupid. Ramsay is intelligent, pretty fearless and good in a fight. When combined with his sociopathic evil nature, that makes him quite a bit more of a threat to Sansa and everyone around him than Joffrey (except for the fact that Joffrey was king, so had more power temporarily).

Edited May 25, 2015 by pon teeve

[lucindabelle]

So she gets naked to activate a poison that a couple seconds later she decides to give him the antidote for? The only point of the scene was tits.

Meh, she was taunting him. It seemed totally believable and something I would do if my tits were that good.

[nksarmi]

I was so glad to see Ghost, cuz Sam, bless his heart, just wasn't getting the job done.  My question is:  Where did Ghost go afterward?  He seemed to just....vanish.

I hope he was guarding the door while Sam and Gilly had their quiet time.

[Brn2bwild]

But for all that people wanted the Northern Conspiracy, where should the show have taken the funding from.   Dorne and the Sand Snakes will be important per GRRM, Arya (fans would riot if she were gone, not me but she is popular), Dany, it would never happen, Jon, the same.   Too many characters were centered around Winterfell to nix it.   Roose, Ramsay, Theon to Littlefinger and Sansa in the Vale.   They could have had Ms. Turner sit out the season and had her political genius grow off screen but considering the kind of work she's getting these day's I have know doubt her agent has secured a lucrative salary (since contracts were recently negotiated) and the show probably wants her to earn it.   Is the Vale important?  We need TWOW to find out.     Since D&D are the ones that KNOW the ending and they saw fit to cut it, I'm assuming it's not pivotal.

Why do you assume there wouldn't be funding available?  D&D might have left out Frey pie and the restless Northern lords for the same reason they left out Arianne, Quentyn, Wyllas, Garlan, Euron, Victarion, Aeron, and so many others... because they viewed them as unnecessary complications.  That doesn't mean (1) they were correct or (2) they couldn't have staged the trapped wedding party for a couple of episodes.  They manage to fund endless scenes of brothels that don't have any major story function and could have easily been replaced.

[nksarmi]

Well in real life if I knew someone had "only" gone through an attempted rape rather than an actual rape, would I "be pissed about near misses"? Yes, yes I would. 

 

Sprinkling in rape/the threat of rape as a way of adding flavor to each episode is icky, and yes especially if it's made up by writers who seem to have a terrible grasp on how to handle it.

Ok but would also be pissed if she choose to make love to the man who tried to save her from that assault at the risk of his own life later that night?  Or would you say it's her call to make? Or do you just believe that the big evil male writers wrote such an act as no woman would choose when Gilly made love to Sam that night?

 

I'm a woman and I often consider myself a feminist, but I have serious issues with how it's perfectly fine for these writers to show slavery, sex slaves, torture, flaying, cannibalism, multiple instances of male mutilation, fighting pits, beheadings, incest, cold-blooded murder, religious persecution of homosexuals as being sexual deviants, references to real sexual deviants (I can't remember if they ever showed some of the things LF specialized in), and so on....but rape is the thing that gets people's goats and says the show runners are being misogynistic.

 

Furthermore, it doesn't seem to be just rape, but rather a rape that wasn't in the books.  It's perfectly fine for GRRM to have lesser known women raped, but if the writers have a well known character raped - it's misogynistic and contributing to rape culture.  WTF?  When has rape been shown to be a good thing on this show?  Septsex doesn't count to me because it wasn't rape in the books, the writers and actors have said they were not filming it as rape, and not everyone in the audience saw it as rape - so while it had some unintended consequences, that is not the writers/directors badly handling a rape scene - that is them badly handling a consensual sex scene.

 

You know what is a rape scene that contributed to a culture of rape?  When Rhett Butler carries Scarlet up the steps in Gone With the Wind and she is beating on his back telling him no and they flash the next morning where she is smiling and happily combing her hair.  That hasn't happened on this show as far as I'm concerned.  Do I want more rape?  No, not really.  But I have to steel myself for the fact that I know deep down I want a happy ending and I'm not going to get one.  So I look for the characters I like to have victories and to overcome all the bad shit that is happening to them.  I expect them to have scars at the end of the day, but I'm not looking for some fairy tale ending here - I just want some of them to prevail and the rest of them to find whatever happiness they can before GRRM kills them off.

[Helena Dax]

Yes we are.  It is legally assault by our definitions of TODAY (meaning it's generally assault in 2015 when anyone touches or obstructs you without your permission, sexually or not).  So she WAS assaulted by OUR rules and by our rules and mores, I am judging the writers for including this ON TOP OF ALL THE OTHERS.  This wasn't a one-time mis-step. It's gratuitous and gross, imo, and I think it's important to call the show out on its perpetuation of rape culture by using assault as its go-to for drama.

 The show  has less rape than  the books, which means  this has always been a story that depicts lots of rapes, violence, cannibalism and torture. If  you don't want to watch it, that's fine. But I disagree with  the idea  that the  showrunners have to make the show less hardcore just because some people don't want to see those things. To me, it's like watching Hannibal and  being upset because there's a lot of murder and cannibalism. 

[brisbydog]

 

Meh, she was taunting him. It seemed totally believable and something I would do if my tits were that good.

I figured that she was aware he was poisoned but because he had no symptoms he would not accept the antidote unless he started to show the effects, so she 'stimulated' the bloodflow to get him to believe that he was poisoned, otherwise why would he take a pill she offered him (if he felt fine)?

[loki567]

m a woman and I often consider myself a feminist, but I have serious issues with how it's perfectly fine for these writers to show slavery, sex slaves, torture, flaying, cannibalism, multiple instances of male mutilation, fighting pits, beheadings, incest, cold-blooded murder, religious persecution of homosexuals as being sexual deviants, references to real sexual deviants (I can't remember if they ever showed some of the things LF specialized in), and so on....but rape is the thing that gets people's goats and says the show runners are being misogynistic.

 

 

For me, it's really not one instance of rape in a scene that's driving me crazy. It's everything around that when it comes to D&D's writing of women. It's the sexposition and treating naked women like furniture. It's cutting out of most of the female's character development and basically slotting them into one role (mother, victim, vamp, badass). AND THEN you get to the rapes that don't really get proper narrative weight from the writers. The emotional effects on the victims are basically swept aside. The rapes don't even seemed to be about the victims, it's more about just about shocking the audience than having an effect on the story. 

 

And I think that's kinda a big disconnect between the Pro vs. Negative debate, I don't think people are really upset about this one rape scene with Sansa. I think it's more about the last five years of how D&D writes their female characters and what worldview they're trying to promote. 

[FemmyV]

This episode made me cringe in so many places ... the High Sparrow is the creepiest character on the show - even more than Ramsey Snow, to me. J Pryce is beyond perfect. In his own way, HS = Ramsey without the physical torture. That he's commanding the things his is, for the supposedly "right" reasons, and is beyond anyone's control. RS will at least listen to Roose's advice. Can't wait to see where things go after Cersei's Walk.

 

 

Stannis is going to burn his own daughter to death, isn't he? Any half-way decent father wouldn't even be conflicted about this. 

 

      Stannis might be conflicted. Selyse, not so much. Look out Shireen!

 

 

... but no way do I think she was reminding Ramsy of his bastard status just to piss him off. She`s trying to turn him against his father. Divide and conquer. I think i do get where they are going with this story, that Sansa will rise from all this trauma and abuse and become the next great Stark leader, but damn. Did it have to be this nasty?

 

      As good as it was to see, I don't believe Sansa was intentionally trying to run a spike between Father-Son to the effect LF might have, more likely lashing out. If it'd been a LF or a Varys or a master manipulator, they would have done it in the manner of voicing concern for Ramsey, and not give the appearance of taunting.

 

And that's the big thing Sansa has to learn! Before getting wrapped up with the KL crew, she always got what she wanted for no other reason that she's Sansa fucking Stark, the adored daughter of the Lord of the North. Lately, a woman just got flayed for helping her for no other reason. Maybe now, it will finally sink in that she has to pay attention to others' needs & desires in order to get what she wants, and what she wants needs to benefit more than one person.

 

 

After Theon ratted her out, Ramsay was on the lookout for anybody sneaking up to the broken tower with a candle.

 

  Ramsey probably brought the candle there, himself, to see who might be around.

[Advance35]

Why do you assume there wouldn't be funding available?  D&D might have left out Frey pie and the restless Northern lords for the same reason they left out Arianne, Quentyn, Wyllas, Garlan, Euron, Victarion, Aeron, and so many others... because they viewed them as unnecessary complications.

 

 

Ya i think casting those characters or even half of them would be MUCH more expensive than run of the mill brothel scenes decorated with extras.   The only one GRRM has addressed (to my knowledge) was the exclusion of Willas and Garlan Tyrell, he didn't seem to address any of the others.    And with 2 books i can't imagine HOW he will address all the plot points that many readers think will amount to something.

 

I think it's no coincidence that GRRM has scattered several useful characters around the Vale and had Sansa get to know them...Mya Stone, who seems brave and a good sort, unlikely to be corrupted...Lothar Brune, who likes Mya...even old Kettleblack Sr., who's been LF's faithful henchman till now, but might change his tune once he finds out that all three of his sons are in deep shit in KL while carrying out missions for LF, and LF is unlikely to want to try to rescue them at his behest. And also, now that Sansa is allowed to freely socialize and gossip with the gentry, she's much more likely to find out LF's role in the betrayal of her father. And you can't tell me there's no chance Myranda Royce just coincidentially dropped Jon Snow's name in conversation with Sansa and took no notice of Sansa's reaction. A whole lot of interesting stuff is about to go down in the Vale, IMO.

 

 

This is speculation that I've seen a lot and I honestly think a lot of people are going to be disappointed.   If LF get's what's coming to him I don't think it'll be at the hands of Sansa or something Sansa sets in motion necessarily.   I think a lot is expected to happen in 2 books, so much that it doesn't seem possible.    And I still maintain if Sansa's time in the Vale was supposed to be especially important to the future of her character or anyone else's she would be there in the show.   I don't even think Robin Arryn is going to be a HUGE factor, since I know longer think LF is poisoning him, just not optimistic about his continued good health.   I think the only thing in the Vale of consequence is Sansa's likely marriage to Harry The Heir.   Everything else is probably just frills.   But time will tell.

[SeanC]

One moment I found hilarious:  Sam giving Jon the dragonglass dagger and helpfully explaining that it is what he used to kill White Walkers.  Er, did Sam really not tell Jon (the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch) about that until now?

[nksarmi]

For me, it's really not one instance of rape in a scene that's driving me crazy. It's everything around that when it comes to D&D's writing of women. It's the sexposition and treating naked women like furniture. It's cutting out of most of the female's character development and basically slotting them into one role (mother, victim, vamp, badass). AND THEN you get to the rapes that don't really get proper narrative weight from the writers. The emotional effects on the victims are basically swept aside. The rapes don't even seemed to be about the victims, it's more about just about shocking the audience than having an effect on the story. 

 

And I think that's kinda a big disconnect between the Pro vs. Negative debate, I don't think people are really upset about this one rape scene with Sansa. I think it's more about the last five years of how D&D writes their female characters and what worldview they're trying to promote. 

I'm just not seeing it.  I don't see a huge difference between the show and the books and in many cases, I think the show is doing a better job with its female characters.

 

-To me, Cat was awful in the books and the show was a little kinder to her.  Lady Stoneheart was god awful and I'm glad we don't get her.

-Sansa started out a spoiled brat who learned the very hard way that all that glitters is not gold, but while on the show she has seen the value of Tyrion - in the books, she still seems shallow and limited to me.  Plus, despite the rape - the show has put her in a place where I can now route for her.  I personally never cared much about her before.

-Ayra - pretty much the same either way.

-Gily - most a non entity in the books to me - I like her in the show.

-The Red Witch - evil, scary, and weird in both places.

-Cersei - in the books, I see her as a straight up villain.  The show has gone a long way to tame back her using what's between her legs to get her way for everything and they are trying to show her as a loving mother (I just refuse to feel sorry for her damn it).

-Marg - I see her pretty much the same in the books and show even though her story is a little different.

-Olenna - smart, cunning, and a true matriarch - hard to say bad things about the show's version of her.

-Dany - I see her much the same in the show and the books.  The show is trying to simplify her story a bit and that might create issues, but I think the show runners have the essence of who she is down.

-Theon's sister - what we saw of her was perfect.  I'm not sure I wanted to see her make a play to rule and lose to her uncle.  That would have just been another misogynistic move, wouldn't it?  Or is it ok when the books do it?

-Dorne's missing princess and the sand snakes - they aren't getting a ton of development yet, but I think the Dorne story is coming and all of these characters will get a little more interesting and less one-note.  Or so I hope.

-Brie - I think the show has been kinder to her than the books.  She has made a lot of mistakes in both instances, but at least the show has given her some success and put her in a place where she can make a difference.

-Shae and Robb's wife - I will group them together since I think the show's version of both women was much kinder than their book counterparts.  In the show, the women are capable of true feelings - not just pawns in the game.

 

I might be forgetting some, but for me the show has either been on track with the books or doing a better job with their female characters.  I suspect what people don't realize is that it's the source material that they really dislike - not what the show runners are doing.

 

***And for the record, I don't think the book or show is much kinder to its male characters.  They seem to be incompetent fools (Robert B and Dany's brother Viserys), skilled warriors with little brains (Drago, Robb, early Jamie), noble idiots (Ned and Tommen), restrained villains (Tywin and Roose), psychotic villains (Joffrey and Ramsey), and cunning, intelligent liars (Littlefinger and Varys).  The best among them - Jon, Sam, Tyrion, Jorah, and maybe later Jamie - all have some flaw or another or might be heading for their doom. 

[SeanC]

-Sansa started out a spoiled brat who learned the very hard way that all that glitters is not gold, but while on the show she has seen the value of Tyrion - in the books, she still seems shallow and limited to me. 

Sansa understood that Tyrion was kinder than the other Lannisters in the books.  The difference is that in the books they were never friends or allies, because GRRM respected the characters and the situation enough to not try to hide that they were on different sides, as the show did.

[Dev F]

And just BTW, this seems to indicate that Brienne was the one who sent the old lady to begin with - which seems to prove that Northern resistance to the Boltons amounts to one old lady brave enough to pass along a message.

I thought the implication was that the innkeeper in Wintertown contacted the old woman on Brienne's behalf, through a network of Stark loyalists of which we've only seen a small portion.

The only reason the old woman got pinched is because she's the only person who's had access to Sansa, but she didn't give up the innkeeper or anyone else in their circle.

[Brn2bwild]

Sansa understood that Tyrion was kinder than the other Lannisters in the books.  The difference is that in the books they were never friends or allies, because GRRM respected the characters and the situation enough to not try to hide that they were on different sides, as the show did.

 

Plus, IIR, didn't book Sansa have a chain stuck around her neck so that she was literally dragged to the alter?  No wonder she didn't want to bond with Tyrion after that.  

 

 

 

I thought the implication was that the innkeeper in Wintertown contacted the old woman on Brienne's behalf, through a network of Stark loyalists of which we've only seen a small portion.

The only reason the old woman got pinched is because she's the only person who's had access to Sansa, but she didn't give up the innkeeper or anyone else in their circle.

 

That made me think that a really cool twist would be if Myranda was actually an undercover Stark loyalist, playing Ramsay this whole time.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Brn2bwild