S30.E10: Bring The Popcorn

[LanceM]

amount in my estimation.

 

It also makes Shirin's/Jenn's accusation of Will even more absurd.  They are the ones stealing food... he actually is sharing his (in Jenn's case not just what he found but his everyday portions as well)... and they charge him with lying and hoarding. 

 

They were trying to drive a wedge in the alliance of 6 by telling them Will was untrustworthy. It really had nothing to with the food.

[LadyChatts]

With each interview I read I love Jenn more and more. At least Ponderosa eps will be fun now! I really do hope Shirin goes next so that I can focus on Ponderosa and stop caring entirely about the actual show.

 

Totally agree!  In fact, the NC trio seems so happy and fun on their own that I hate for anyone else to join them, except Shirin.  Can we just have the remaining BC and WC sleep outside in a tent and let Jenn, Joe, Hali, and Shirin keep the house?  I'm sure it's only going to get ugly once the remaining 6 have to go at each other.  Which is hopefully soon, but again, I feel sorry for the NC having to put up with them.

 

ETA: I am especially enjoying Hali.  I wish she had gotten more screen time while she was on the show.  I'd love to see her get a second shot.  Like Joe, she seems to understand her strategy was all wrong.  It'd be interesting if she were to get a second shot how she'd change, especially if they had people out there willing to play and not settle or live by the 'flippers never win!' argument.

Edited April 26, 2015 by LadyChatts

[Runningwild]

I'm not a religious person, but I respect people's religion. Shirin's ridicule of Will's religious beliefs, even though she may have been right... is a clear personal attack.

I am a Christian and I don't see Shirin's question as her ridiculing Will. She was just pointing out the hypocrisy of his behavior. As someone else pointed out, God does like 'ugly.' Seems like it would be more Christ-like to be her friend instead of attacking her and accusing her of not having any friends.

[thejuicer]

Late to the game, appreciate all the posts so far. I always thought Will was a fat, lazy, stupid piece of shit but didn't know he was also a bully. I hardly ever call anyone that word on reality TV, most things are fair game in terms of argument and conflict, but he went below the belt to a degree I don't think I've seen before on this show.

 

I got choked up for Shirin because her story hits close to home - I myself come from a very dysfunctional family. If I went on Survivor, let's just say there would be no love letter from mom or dad.  Understandably social gatherings like weddings, Christmas, etc. are always hard for me, and a source of anxiety, sadness, and embarrassment all mixed in one as I try to explain to others why I have no family gatherings of my own to go to.  The thought of someone criticizing or somehow explaining my family situation as a result of me being a horrible person would hurt me so deeply, and I empathize with Shirin that anyone would degrade her like that.

 

So Will, congratulations on exposing yourself for what you are - a judgmental, small-minded, misogynistic piece of shit. That's on top of what we already knew about you being a fat, lazy, stupid piece of shit.  The way he conducted himself at Tribal Council solidified he has zero self-awareness or insight into his ridiculous behaviour. Ignorance is bliss, and Will is the most blissful person I have witnessed on television.

Edited April 26, 2015 by thejuicer

[JudyObscure]

 I've never missed an episode of Survivor and probably never will, but in recent years I've really hated all this information that comes out while the game is afoot. I don't want to know what Dan is saying on Twitter, it's so spoiling when you can guess who did or didn't win by the amount of bitterness, or  worse, Jenn with  her many, many interviews. I just want to form my opinions based on what we've seen on the show.  Now we've got Jenn saying, we girls were so adorbs, we stole food! A yuk a yuk a yuk.  I don't think it's cute.  I think it breaks one of the hard and fast rules of Survivor etiquette.  People have been promptly evicted because of it.  The men actually burn many more calories per day because of their muscle mass, so keeping food from Mike so Jenn can keep that little pot belly puffed up just irritates me and it makes it harder for me to root for Shirin.  I'm not faulting anyone here for posting that stuff because it's not against the rules and most people seem to enjoy it, I'm just wondering if I'm alone in this?

[BigRedCheese]

 

I'm just wondering if I'm alone in this?

 

I enjoy the interviews and have no problem with those, the food thing has been going on from day one, and I'm not bothered by that. But I think I'm with you on the tweeting, they used to have a ban on the players discussing the show on social media while the show is still going, maybe it's time to bring that back. 

[LadyChatts]

I don't have a problem with it.  I am surprised that the cast has been allowed to be so open in their interviews (heck, Joaquin spoiled that Kelly was the first merge boot in one of his), and especially with the complaints about editing, how much the castoffs have been allowed to divulge what was going on behind the scenes.  I always thought interviews and the questions were screened, not sure if they still are. SM, I guess I don't have a problem.  But I wonder if the ban will be back in place next season.  After the Will vs Shirin blow up, it appears the producers are at least attempting to put a clamp on that, given some of the comments.  I noticed that most of the twitters got relatively silent after Wednesdays episode, and those that did speak out couldn't seem to help themselves.

 

It did put things into an interesting perspective when I saw who was close with who out there, although that isn't always a giveaway how the game goes.  There was a lot of speculation on another site that Carolyn went pre-jury because she and So were apparently friendly outside the game, and therefore must have spent time together in pre-jury Ponderosa.  I actually find the SM interactions almost nauseating, and I could live without ever hearing 'dirty 30' again. 

[fishcakes]

I'm ambivalent about the tweets and Facebook, and I usually only look at them when someone has behaved heinously so that I can see what they're saying about it and what kind of reaction they're getting. Given that so many of the players this season are troglodytes, it means I've been looking at the social media stuff a lot. On the one hand, I like that there's an immediate comeuppance for people like Will and Dan and that the more they talk, the worse they look. On the other hand, it makes me hate them as people, and I really don't enjoy that. I'd prefer to be able to give them the benefit of the doubt, but it's impossible when they're all over the internet yapping about how their bad behavior is everyone's fault but their own.

[paramitch]

Here's the thing -- I got why the other tribe members have occasionally found Shirin annoying. And I say this as a total nerdy, goofy woman myself (and believe me, I'd probably annoy the crap out of America if I were ever on a reality show). Yet even though Shirin's social tone-deafness started out irritating me, I began to see that there was a lot of humor and self-awareness that I found kind of touching, and I started to like her and find her interesting. Then this episode happened, and I was so proud of Shirin -- and so furious and uncomfortable at what Will did that -- like Khaleesi -- I was in tears:  Not when he screamed at her, although sure, that was vile. But the capper for me was his behavior at Tribal. 

 

I transcribed both scenes in order to review them again more analytically and to make sure I was assessing them honestly:

 

AT CAMP:

WILL (voiceover): I just heard that those three are saying that I'm lying about that there was more food, that I'm hiding it, which is a crock.

 

CUT TO Will standing, pointing angrily at Shirin, who is seated.

 

WILL (yelling): I chose to share that with you guys! Now you're gonna question that? Look at it! What else will fit in that, Miss Greedy Ass? All you been doing is running your damn mouth. So what else can fit in there Shirin? I know you hungry, all you do is eat and talk, what else can fit in there, Shirin?
SHIRIN (quietly): Do you really have to speak to me that way?
WILL (yelling): Yeah, I am speaking to you that way. Don't ever question my character, Doll. For real.
SHIRIN (Confessional): Will came back to camp FREAKING out. Mike was missing, Jenn was missing. And Will starts just tearing into me, honestly, like a crazy person.
WILL: So let's get it on out into the open! You all want to talk, let's talk!
RODNEY (to SHIRIN): Why don't you keep your mouth shut and you'll stay here around with us, and you'll stay here longer?
MIKE walks up and holds his hand out to Shirin (Jenn is just behind him).
MIKE (to SHIRIN): Come on. (He takes her hand and they start to leave. Will sits down and is visibly calmer. He still directs most of what follows to SHIRIN, not Mike)
WILL: That's crazy.
MIKE: Let's get out of here. You're not gonna sit here and get attacked.
WILL: When you get called out, that's what happened.
SHIRIN: No. (She starts to leave with Mike and Jenn)
WILL: It's the truth. You don't want to hear the truth. Nobody even likes you. I will guarantee you that there's nobody at home in the United States right now that is missing you.
SHIRIN stands still and starts to cry.
SHIRIN (Confessional): And then he just started digging in with the personal attacks.
WILL: We all have loved ones that love and care for us. You have nothing.
WILL (continues, inaudible)
SHIRIN (Confessional): having grown up in a family torn apart by domestic violence, and then verbally assaulted my entire childhood, I get worked up about it.
WILL: You have nothing. You have no family. You have nothing. You are nothing.
MIKE: Stop with the personal attacks.
WILL: Dude, I do what I want. Ain't nobody gonna talk to me --
SHIRIN (crying): He's a man of God, he prays before every meal.
WILL: I do. God don't like ugly. And I'm exposing ugly to him right now. Go on with your little bitch Mike, and get the hell up out of here.
MIKE: Do what now?
WILL: I don't stutter, bro.
(They leave)

 

NOTE: I've corrected the transcript, as Rodney was not attempting to hush Will, which I originally thought was a sign of momentary non-jerkiness, but Shirin, so (sigh). I also think that most of the people present looked incredibly uncomfortable, not entertained (although we do see Tyler grin). Mike also attempted to step in almost immediately (not later, like I remembered).

 

AT TRIBAL (throughout the following, Will is smiling, calm, and smug): 

 

WILL: Let's just say this. Shirin was saying that, "You had all this food, you didn't share your snacks."
SHIRIN: False. False.
WILL: But how dare you question me saying that I'm hiding food when I shared it with each and every one of you, even some people that I don't like? I didn't get to eat at the auction like they did, i didn't get the love letters like they did. but I'm like, "This is what I got for you, let's celebrate," and then to question that, it set me off.
JEFF: So you exploded.
WILL: Oh, with 150 thousand percent, I exploded.
SHIRIN: But Jeff, to be clear that is not where his yelling ended. He said two things about the actual incident and then he started personally attacking me.
WILL: I didn't personally attack you.
SHIRIN (beginning to cry): He started talking about how I have no family, how I'm a loser, how more people in this game like him than have liked me in my entire life...
WILL: But that's true, though.
SHIRIN: That I have no soul, that he needs to pray for me --
WILL: That's true.
SHIRIN: And it was just all personal attacks. It had nothing to do with the game. It had everything to do with me personally. It went way beyond the game. And yeah, do you know why I don't have a family? Let's talk about that for a second, Jeff. Yeah, it's so funny and so great to put me down for not having a family. I don't have a family because my biological father is just like you (she turns toward Will), he verbally assaulted me all the time --
WILL: -- I didn't verbally assault you.
SHIRIN: Shut up.
WILL: -- I just called you out.
SHIRIN: You verbally assaulted me.
WILL: You get called out, you play the "victim." (air quotes)
SHIRIN: And I am a victim of domestic violence --
WILL: She's a "victim" (high voice, air quotes)
SHIRIN: -- and this is why our family was torn apart, and that is why I do not have a family at home, and he is making light of that.
WILL: I ain't making light of that.
SHIRIN: While a whole slew of people just watched like it's entertainment.

Again, what's interesting is that Jeff really does appear visibly moved and kind toward Shirin's emotional outburst, he just doesn't seem to know what to say. I also do think people were more sympathetic than Shirin realized -- in both cases, most of the other survivors looked saddened by the incidents. (Even Rodney! Although Dan just has this expression like, "I am trying so hard to look solemn and caring for the cameras right now...")

 

His diatribe at tribal that Shirin always plays the victim was so awful. Rightfully stating that you were a victim of domestic violence and are now a victim of being verbally assaulted by a crazy person is not "playing the victim". It is stating a fact. And I hate how perpetrators use this "playing the victim card" to try and justify what they've done and distract people from their horrendous behaviour. 

Will's behavior and victim-blaming and mockery at Tribal were the worst moments of all for me.

 

Nope, people are pointing out Will's size as a relevant issue in bullying and I simply countered that in a game where physical bullying is not allowed that mental acuity would be more of an advantage.

I don't think you really appreciate what it's like to have someone much bigger than you are tower over you and scream at you. Whether or not Shirin intellectually knew that Will could not hit her, that doesn't mean she didn't react emotionally and viscerally in the moment to having a screaming man turn and point her right in the face. There was absolutely an element of physical intimidation to the beginning of Will's diatribe.

 

I think hincandenza is onto something.  The way Shirin is being treated is so "Lord of the Flies", and wasn't the kid who got targeted first there also more of a bookworm than the rest?  It appears that Survivor gives nerdy people like Cochran and Max and Shirin the "opportunity" to give up their real-world gains and go back to middle school and get bullied.  (There is another example like that whose name escapes me: an Asian-American woman who seemed a bland personality but nice, who was inexplicably treated as a pariah, maybe five or six seasons ago.)

This is because bullies have a kind of spooky radar. I was seriously, cruelly bullied in the sixth and seventh grade, and again (briefly, thank goodness) in high school -- constantly and publicly mocked, beaten up, shoved into lockers, down on hallway floors, down half-flights of stairs, shunned, passed notes telling me I was so ugly I should die, etc. The principal used to call me in to apologize and check on me weekly. It was almost funny.

 

I'm not whining -- I'm a stronger person for surviving that and into a successful adulthood. But that experience also taught me that bullies have a kind of radar. I do think they can sense those who have been bullied before, and it's like blood in the water. They just seem to know, and that's what I see in Will here (and what I saw in Dan's creepy, nasty little scene with Shirin in the pool a few episodes back). It's like they know she's the weak one in the herd, the one most susceptible to people looking right in her face and saying, "You're nothing. You don't matter. I'm just trying to help you by telling you the truth." And both times someone did this to Shirin, Dan and Will both, they SMILED when they did it. Like they were discussing an accepted fact. It's grotesque.

 

I'm pretty smart too and all my verbal skills which I can use to craft clever Facebook posts or chat with my friends (or do my job well when I was in the working world) would go right out the window if someone attacked me like that. I would not be able to access those skills I have on paper, and I'd fall apart way worse than Shirin would.  And I don't even have as painful a background as Shirin had.

 

To this day, one of the frustrating things about life for me as someone who survived really virulent bullying, is that I -- to this day -- am just terrible in confrontations. My mind goes completely blank. I shut down. I'm an articulate person, but in an argument, to this day, my wit and smarts desert me when I need them in those situations every time.

Edited April 27, 2015 by paramitch

[BigRedCheese]

Thanks for posting that paramitch, I didn't recall Rodney at least saying something either, I guess it just got buried underneath Will's vile, relentless barrage of spittle filled rage, hate and misogyny.

[dolphincorn]

Jeez, it seems even worse when it's transcribed.

[Alapaki]

It's good to see it transcribed because it helps validate the visceral hate towards Will that the interaction generated in me (and I suspect a few others).  However, shortly after the fact, if one doesn't have a photographic memory for the words spoken, it can become difficult to articulate the basis for that hatred of Will's behavior.  

 

I've tried to not be too hard on the bystanders, because I can't say 100% that I'd have spoken up or what I would have said.  It was just such a surreal event, that seemingly came out of nowhere.  I can understand some of them cynically having a knee-jerk reaction that Will was flushing his chances of winning down the toilet, so don't get in his way and let him do it.  But, then again, I don't seriously think any of those folks thought Will had any realistic chance of winning.  

 

I don't have enough information to say that any of the others share Will's views about Shirin's home life.  And they wouldn't be the first "good people remaining silent while evil flourishes".  But I really hope they made an opportunity for themselves to apologize to Shirin for their remaining silent.  Some of their social-media defenses of their behavior doesn't bode well in that regard, though.

[ElleryAnne]

Thanks for transcribing that, paramitch.  

 

I vaguely remembered that Rodney had said something during that exchange, but I thought it was directed at Shirin and telling her to shut up instead.  If it was actually directed at Will, then my respect for Rodney goes up - of course, that's basically an out of the sewer and into the gutter improvement, but since Will's behavior is sewer-sludge levels, it's still something.

 

WILL: I do. God don't like ugly. And I'm exposing ugly to him right now.

 

 

Yeah, Will, you sure were.  Pot, meet kettle.

[ljenkins782]

RODNEY (to Will): Why don't you keep your mouth shut and you'll stay here around with us, and you'll stay here longer?

 

Are you sure he was talking to Will? I honestly thought he was saying that to Shirin. Not because she was saying much in that moment, but because Will was accusing her of running her mouth about the food and because it's generally established that everyone thinks she talks too much. 

 

Sad to say, but based on who was sitting around the fire at that moment, Rodney wouldn't be currying favor with anyone by defending Shirin against Will and I don't see him being a good enough person to defend her just because it's the right thing to do. Tyler, Carolyn, and Dan all seem to hate her and who knows how Sierra feels so standing up to an ally against a non-alliance member pariah doesn't make sense from Rodney's point of view. 

 

As for the episode itself, way late to the party, but agreed with everyone who found that an uncomfortable watch on so many levels. 

 

Enough has been said about Will's behavior, but I guess it's enough for me that he dug his own grave vote-wise by continuing to be a remorseless asshole at TC in front of Joe and Hali. There was plenty of cool-down time  in between and that he could be so awful again with so little heated emotion behind it says a lot about him. 

 

Also incredibly uncomfortable to watch in a less serious way was Mike's incredibly baffling gameplay. It was like watching a "How to lose Survivor in just 1 day" how-to video. So many possibilities for a serious advantage and he blew every last one of them.

 

IF he was going to pull that shit at the auction, he should have stuck to it. And in that vein, I do think all sales should be final at the auction. Nobody's ever gotten to "return" the glass of water from camp that they bought for $100 or whatever, why should that change now? I'm not sure if Jeff would have denied the return, since Mike seemed to get up immediately upon Carolyn's statement, so this could all be moot, but if he stuck to his guns, he'd be on the outs but on the outs with a big advantage. As it is, he's on the outs with nothing but the lowest on the totem pole as allies. 

 

He also had a shot at blindsiding one of the secret 4, what on earth made him think that publicly blowing it up was the way to go??? 

 

Such a bizarre episode, by the time they showed Mike, Shirin and Jenn holed up together in that cave area, I was like "wtf just happened here?" Last week, he was riding high as king of the majority alliance and now he's got no one but the 2 freebie boots. 

 

Though I have to say, I must have a thing for underdogs because I liked Mike more in this episode than I have since the first episode. And weirdly, I'm more okay with the idea of him winning if it's not a ride to the end on everyone's shoulders like it seemed to be in the last 6 weeks or so. 

 

[needschocolate]

After reading the transcription, I can now say that I would be okay with Rodney winning the whole thing - assuming he was talking to Will.  

 

ETA - Nevermind - he was probably talking to Shirin.  Too many jerks to keep track of.    

Edited April 28, 2015 by needschocolate

[Wings]

I just re watched that scene.  Rodney was looking directly at Shirin.  He was talking to her.   Several have mentioned Shirin's constant talking  driving them nuts around camp.   Rodney was probably anticipating she and Will getting into a fight so tried to stop that.  He had no clue Will was going to attack her personally at that point.  

[AZChristian]

I'm a Christian. God doesn't need anyone to point out"ugly" to Him. He has 20/20 "uglyvision" and can see all the way into the soul. Pretty sure He wasn't too pleased with Will's using His name in vain during that exchange with Shirin.

[paramitch]

Apologies -- I think you guys are right about Rodney -- I think I had the logistics turned around when I was transcribing. I was thinking that in that shot, Rodney was to the right of Will, but he is actually to the left of Will, and to the right of Shirin. 

 

So, yeah, it does look like he's turning back to Shirin there when he says that. I've corrected the transcript I posted.

 

But what's so odd is that WILL is yelling, and SHIRIN is silent when Rodney says this! She's just sitting there. So it's really sad, because Rodney is basically piling on and saying, "Keep your mouth shut," and that's a bummer. I was (momentarily) surprised because I really thought maybe I'd missed a moment of humanity from Rodney.

 

Ack. Nope.

[Miss Scarlet]

I noticed Rodney's interjection in that scene and I think he was talking to Shirin, not Will. It makes sense because at that point she had already joined the big alliance. I wish he had been talking to Will, but I don't think he was.

[dolphincorn]

The one funny thing about this is that it reminds me of the time on America's Next Top Model that Bre used the phrase "God don't like ugly" in another particularly monstrous moment.

[ghoulina]

Jeez, it seems even worse when it's transcribed.

 

Doesn't it, though? My God. Just reading that, I am in tears. And I didn't cry when actually watching it. I was probably too shocked. Will is just vile. There's no other way to describe it. He couldn't humble himself. He couldn't take any accountability. No matter what Shirin had or hadn't done, it did not warrant the nasty, hurtful things he said about her. Mike may have done some stupid things in this game, and he may have said some asinine things, but he earned about 1000 points with me for taking Shirin's hand and leading her out of there. I honestly do not believe that was game play. I think he has a heart and he did not want to see this woman being verbally assaulted for one more second. 

I'm a Christian. God doesn't need anyone to point out"ugly" to Him. He has 20/20 "uglyvision" and can see all the way into the soul. Pretty sure He wasn't too pleased with Will's using His name in vain during that exchange with Shirin.

 

I am a Christian as well, and I try very hard to never be one of those people who attempts to speak for God. But in this case, sorrybutnotsorry, there is no way in HELL God would be okay with how Will spoke to Shirin. No way. If Will thinks his behavior was Christ-like, he needs to reevaluate things. Big time. 

[allthatglitters]

..............

To this day, one of the frustrating things about life for me as someone who survived really virulent bullying, is that I -- to this day -- am just terrible in confrontations. My mind goes completely blank. I shut down. I'm an articulate person, but in an argument, to this day, my wit and smarts desert me when I need them in those situations every time.

 

thanks for posting that paramitch.  I understand as I was bullied for a time in highschool. It stays with you. Its worse than physical violence that way. At least the kind where you can recover. Because emotional violence builds cumulatively. Sure Will may have apologized after the show, but the damage is done. This kind of "christian" is a complete idiot about what that means. I am no more one, but I grew up in a Christian household. Christ was the epitome of one who valued the cast offs of society, the prostitute at the well, the blind and lepers, the thief beside him on the cross. He was all about loving even your enemy. To fight back with kindness and love.

 

Will is the opposite of that. He's one of those that only claims his religion in order to "have it all". A family, work, and on top of it also God in his corner. Just to feel superior to others. That is more important than actually following Jesus's teachings. One reason I left Christianity. I realized that I couldn't follow some religion that was abused by so many including TV preachers and politicians to their own gain. What kind of God would allow himself to be represented that way? So it totally disproved the whole thing. I hope Will will actually realize what he did, but many of his ilk will say sorry, and think thats all there is to it and go back to thinking they are the apple of God's eye.

[Trixie Belden]

During Colton's first season, we stopped watching Survivor with our son because it was just SO over the top with the hateful, nasty bullying.  I mean, he can see that kind of behavior at school or even in our own family, if he's going to watch something on tv, I'd like it to be with adults acting with a little bit of integrity.  This kind of behavior takes away from the interesting parts of the show, like the Rube Goldberg-esque challenges, the true strategizing and smart chess move thinking that some people show.  

 

When I watched Will lose his mind, my heart was racing and I went back to being in elementary school, being the "weird kid" that didn't have any friends, being yelled at by a much larger girl while the other kids watched.  I immediately got that helpless, scared, ALONE feeling I had when I was 9-and I was on my couch with my husband holding my hand, not on an island truly away from anyone that knows and cares about me.  I don't think Shirin deserves to win, because she hasn't excelled in the typical ways I think a winner should, in challenges or strategy.  I just hope that the backlash this episode and Will/Rodney/Dan have gotten causes Jeff and the rest of the producers to change how they handle bullying in future seasons.  I'm not watching the rest of this season (but I'll be checking in here to see what happens) and won't watch next season, unless I see here that they've changed their casting criteria.

[scowl]

I'm not watching the rest of this season (but I'll be checking in here to see what happens) and won't watch next season, unless I see here that they've changed their casting criteria.

I don't know if they could have predicted Will's behavior. He seemed like an easy-going man with a good sense of humor. 

 

At least this season they didn't cast an obvious timebomb like they've done in the past. Well, Vince seemed harmless anyway. 

[Calamity Jane]

I don't know if they could have predicted Will's behavior. He seemed like an easy-going man with a good sense of humor. 

 

At least this season they didn't cast an obvious timebomb like they've done in the past. Well, Vince seemed harmless anyway. 

Will was definitely not the one I would have thought would have this kind of melt-down.  Rodney or Mike, even Carolyn -- not Will.  Really took me aback.  

[Dobian]

Every time I think I might start liking this season, I see an episode like this one and I'm back to hating it.  On the whole, this is just a deplorable bunch.  I dislike most of them, there is no villain I love to hate (like a Russell), there is no brilliant strategy keeping me engaged.  It's just a bunch of oafs lumbering to the finish line.  Can you imagine a final three that included Rodney, Dan, and Will?  Who would you pick?  Ugh.

[Trixie Belden]

I don't know if they could have predicted Will's behavior. He seemed like an easy-going man with a good sense of humor. 

 

At least this season they didn't cast an obvious timebomb like they've done in the past. Well, Vince seemed harmless anyway. 

 

I think you're right.  Up until he lost it on Shirin, I was totally in his corner.  He put on a great act, that's for sure.

[Calamity Jane]

I think you're right.  Up until he lost it on Shirin, I was totally in his corner.  He put on a great act, that's for sure.

Great act, indeed.  And the lack of coming to his senses by Tribal Council cemented for me that this is the real Will, not just a broken-for-a-moment-from-stress Will.  Anyone can lose it and say awful things (although I'm not sure everyone could say what Will said), but most of us get past it, realize we've said/done something over the line, do our best to apologize or mitigate, and try to move on to better behavior, even if we haven't really changed our opinion. I don't know if Will ever had a shot at winning, but I'm pretty sure this killed any chance.  

[LadyChatts]

Dan’s first TH in episode 1 was along the lines of ‘You’re going to remember me, one way or another’.  Because Dick is so determined to be remembered, he treats Sierra and Shirin like shit, to their face and in his confessionals, knowing that it will probably make the edit.  And now this post-show tweet defending Will’s behavior towards Shirin.  Don, you’re a piece of shit on the show and in real life.  I will not remember you, Stan, and I am betting that most previous survivors will avoid you like the plague.

 

Heh, he can be the new Russell, who no one seems to like outside of the game.  Well, he wanted to be remembered.  Hopefully being a complete clueless misguided asshole was what he intended.  On the show, I can get his behavior.  But I don't even think he's playing a character.  Looking at his tweets and behavior outside the show, he's the real deal to me.  30 seasons and almost 500 castaways later, Dan will probably rank in the top 10 worst of all time.  Pretty impressive to do after all this time and all the reprehensible, despicable behavior we've seen through the years.  It's probably eating at him that Shirin is getting all sorts of favorable attention, since he obviously doesn't like her and he's getting the opposite treatment.  It also has to be eating at him that he can't give his side of the story yet, and has to just listen to what people have to say about him and what went on out there.  All his interviews will center around his behavior.  I'm sure that's all Jeff will focus on at the reunion.  What else has he done this season that warrants anything?  Then Jeff will move on to better and more popular castoffs who get loud cheers while Dan grits his teeth after being booed. 

 

In regards to Shirin vs Will: I would sincerely hope Shirin wouldn't relish in any sort of attention from this and be milking it, as some people have claimed.  I can believe that more probably went on than we are seeing.  If Shirin's strategy was to be super annoying and get under people's skin, she did a good job of it, and was probably going to cross the line eventually to where someone blew up at her.  I could almost sympathize with Will for blowing up at her at camp, given the circumstances: he bought himself out of the auction, missed out on a letter from home, got food and shared it, only to be accused of holding out.  Not to mention the 25 days of lack of sleep, dehydration, close living quarters, and lack of food.  He crossed the line with what he said, and the others don't get a pass for just sitting there.  However, he kept it up at TC.  And he brought God into it.  I consider myself a Christian.  But using God's name to justify your actions is just being a damn coward and hiding who you really are.  And when did he apologize to her?  Was it after the episode aired and he started catching hell for it?  That seemed to be what Dan implied, but Dan also only apologized for his behavior after getting called out for it. 

Edited April 28, 2015 by LadyChatts

[ProfCrash]

He hasn't apologized that I know of. He did send a tweet referancing editing and the reunion show.

[needschocolate]

Based on his behavior at TC, I would probably view any apology now as a hollow one - more that he was forced into it than he sincerely regrets it. If it were just the behavior at camp, I can see that the is a chance that editing came into play and there was a lot more leading up to the altercation than we saw, but the bullying at TC is a different story.  He had time to calm down and step back by then.  We know that there was a period of time where Mike, Jenn, and Shirin weren't with the rest of them after the screamfest and TC, yet he continued his ranting and bullying.  Sure, TC is said to take ours and is can be heavily edited, but I can't imagine what could have been edited out at TC that would make his behavior understandable and not worthy of regret.   

 

The treatment of Shirin has got me wondering what is it about her that makes her a target - what is this "scent" that bullies seem to pick up on?  I know plenty of people who were nerdy/talkative/shy/chubby/homely/short/dressed differently/geeky/etc that weren't bullied.  I have long suspected that it was how the victim reacted to the bullies - if you show it bothers you, it is like blood in the water to the sharkbullies.  But I don't know if that is it, or if there is more to it.  No one ever deserves to be bullied and I am in no way suggesting that it is the victim's fault, but if we understood what makes some better targets than others we might be able to help people like Shirin not be bullied.

[Special K]

The treatment of Shirin has got me wondering what is it about her that makes her a target - what is this "scent" that bullies seem to pick up on?

 

This is an interesting question, which I've thought a bit about.  I  was bullied in middle school -- my family moved from overseas and I and my siblings were different in every way from the kids we were in school with.  We were all bullied briefly, but none of us long-term. 

 

I think that in addition to that mysterious "scent" you mention, and the obvious ethnic/religious/tribal aspects, there are a few things that might be involved:

 

1. Having no/few friends.  Once I made friends, even with not-the-most-popular kids, the bullying types started to accept or ignore me.  Didn't Shirin's position degrade substantially once Max left?

 

2. Not currying favor.  If you appear to not care to be popular/pretty/beholden to the group or social hierarchy, you may become a target.  If you are different and don't actively attempt to try to conform (clothes, hair, behavior, etc.) you might be a target. Bullies just want their own positions validated.   This could clearly apply to Shirin.  People say she's "annoying," but that could mean that Shirin doesn't really care (or appear to care) if anyone likes or approves of her. The bottomless dish-washing is a notable example.  American society is notably hostile to women especially who don't give a fuck if you like them or not.  Contrast Shirin's treatment to that of Agent Pink Panties for instance.

 

I think kids who are different in some way who also are doing their own thing without caring about fitting in (whether through intention or by nature) AND who have no or very few friends are often bullied.

 

Ironically,these qualities often make for the most successful, creative, inventive people in adulthood.  It doesn't surprise me that Shirin has found success in her particular field.

 

 

Author's note:  Bear in mind that all my bullying experience is from the 1970s, so like during the Punic Wars.

[FormerMod-a1]

The treatment of Shirin has got me wondering what is it about her that makes her a target - what is this "scent" that bullies seem to pick up on?  ...

 

I've wondered this too.  I keep thinking so what if she's annoying.  Many people are annoying, in life and in this season.  Will, Dan, Rodney are all annoying.  As are other players I'm forgetting names of (I missed a couple of eps and don't know everyone's names)  So why single out Shirin?  Are the other annoying people somehow "cool" despite being annoying and she is not?  So it's OK to single her out and claim all bad behaviour towards her is OK because she's annoying?  But not berate any other annoying person at the same time.  Not that I'm advocating for everyone getting berated, of course, I just don't buy "annoying" as some great sin when everyone else is pretty darned annoying.

[ProfCrash]

I appreciate the people who are trying to point out the mob mentality in the show and on the board. I think that it is there and that it is dangerous. I do think that there is a danger in tossing Will into the Dan and Rodney category only because we have seen Will's bad behavior in one episode. Granted, it was horrific and over the top and he repeated the same thing in his initial attack, talking heads, and at tribal. But It did not strike me as sexist, other then it was a man bullying a woman. Personal and wrong but not sexist. Dan and Rodney have left us a nice trial of sexist behavior to follow. Will's bad behavior not so much.

I find myself losing track of the fact that this season is awful because there are so many people who have behaved awfully. It all starts to jumble together.

 

I don't think anyone would have said Will is annoying until after this episode. I would have described Will as invisible or under the radar and boring. Will's explosion caught me off guard because he had been so under the radar.

 

Dan and Rodney have an impressive track records. Both have made statements that are at best sexist to multiple women. Rodney has made several statements about wanting to fight someone. Rodney has had some spectacular explosions at tribal. I think Dan and Rodney were annoying but part of the majority alliance and seen as goats. So you deal with them because the more stupid stuff they say, the more likely you are to win.

 

All three of them are part of the majority alliance and you need their vote to advance. So you tolerate their issues because you need them to vote with you. I think you could say the same about folks like Coach, Philip, Russell, and the like. You need their votes so you deal with their crazy/bad behavior/stories as long as they help you advance your game.

 

Shirin is not in the majority alliance. She is not a vote you are courting to advance you in the game. She is annoying. You are frustrated due to lack of food, water, sleep and the stress of the game. Toss in a number of other people who are annoying, Rodney and Dan, and you are frustrated. You have one person that you can vent on, the person not in your alliance. That means Shirin. So she becomes the "Psycho" and all the other terms that we have heard people in the majority alliance use to discuss her. You sit around the fire and you can't bitch about Rodney or Dan, so you bitch about Shirin. Her annoying behavior becomes so much more then annoying behavior, it evolves in the group mind.

 

I do think that Shirin is comfortable speaking her mind, we saw that with Joaquin. I do think that Shirin is willing to challenge peoples statements and behavior that she sees as disturbing. We have seen bonus scenes were she discusses some of that. We might not be seeing it right now, but I have no doubt that she has spoken her mind. I am sure that gets under the skin of the people who she is challenging. I am sure she rubs Dan and Rodney wrong because of that. Rodney tells her during the fight with Will to shut up and she will go farther in the game. Probably because he sees her as a goat but her comments annoy him and make him question taking her further. I think Will's comment about taking out Jenn because of challenges gets at that. Shirin is their last target because she is not strong in challenges but they are convincing themselves of that with each vote out because they dislike her that much.

 

The Jenn/Hali/Joe perspective of Shirin is so different then the Joaquin/So/Carolyn/Dan/Rodney/Kelly/Will perspective it is amazing. I just can't figure out what the hell happened out there that there is such a difference of opinion on Shirin.

[JudyObscure]

When I hear Survivors complaining about someone being annoying I always picture Edgardo and Rocky listening to the girls talk abut their make-up routines and making throat cutting suicide gestures. "She's annoying," often means, " She talks about things I'm not interested in," and to people like Dan and Rodney that would be almost any subject other than sports or hilarious incidents of flatulence.

[BigRedCheese]

"to people like Dan and Rodney that would be almost any subject other than sports or hilarious incidents of flatulence."

 

I think those two do more than talk about flatulence, Dan in particular seems like one of those "pull my finger" guys.

[Alapaki]

I do think that there is a danger in tossing Will into the Dan and Rodney category only because we have seen Will's bad behavior in one episode.

 

 

I agree to an extent.  But I think Dan and Rodney (I'd include Mike there pre-Reward Challenge) pretending to alpha-male around the camp creates an environment where a doughy-fuck like Will feels empowered to act the way he did.  I bet there's a part of Will who thought he was "man-ing up" by going after Shirin.  

 

I think those two do more than talk about flatulence, Dan in particular seems like one of those "pull my finger" guys.

 

 

Except it would be "hah, brah, smell my faht!"

[himela]

(Commenting while watching the episode - too late, I know)

 

Mike overheard people scheming about him! Mike turns out to be this over power hero who is always at the right place at the right time. Does he ever sleep? I start to think he just pretends to sleep and he just overhears everything that is said. That's why he was so sentimental the time he found the idol. Not much food and almost zero sleep makes people over sensitive. Other than that I liked Rodney trying to make plans work though I think it's too early to get Mike out now.

 

A survivor auction? God I used to hate it but it has turned out to be a classic that I always enjoy. I laughed so much when Will said "it'll probably be grilled ass or something", after he read the note I'm sure he'd had prefered it to be honest lol. When Mike did not take the letter from home it just proves what I was saying earlier. That man went there just to win, he doesn't care about his image, to make  friends, to starve, to remain sleepless. This puts a huge mark on his back though. Dan handled it better in my opinion, he showed he cares mostly for his human side and he is not some kind of machine without emotions like Mike. I think the moment Mike did that just lost the game. Now everyone will know that this man will simply win the $million as long as he is in the final three. I think, I'm almost sure, this will be a moment Mike will regret for the rest of his life. Even if he gets the advantage and wins this immunity challenge, even if he uses his HII, he won't win every time. Wrong move Mike, in my opinion of course. So after that he knew Carolyn would just give the money back and he would maybe lose the advantage so he rethought about his move and pretended he couldn't leave the letter which I don't believe for a second. The moment that even Dan mistrusted Mike is the beginning of the end for Mike. And the second mistake Mike did was to reveal he overheard about the plan the four had to vote him out. He could just try to take one of the four out and it would be so good, so damn good. But Mike shows once more how crazily paranoid he is. These desperate moves he makes may cost him the game.

 

Smart move from Rodney to use Mike's mistake to his advantage, though I laughed when he said he'd beat him with his wit. I mean, that's so crazy I can't even realize it to the fullest. :P

 

I guess the second vote advantage is the secret Jeff had been talking about that could change the game. I do like it and I was expecting them forever to do something like that, while what I had thought was to make the other tribe vote out a member of the losing tribe from the start of the game. That would eliminate many things and introduce even more new stuff, like who you want to keep, is it the strongest you vote out or the smartest etc. But I do like the second vote idea. Has this ever happened before? I'm sure Shirin will be thrilled.

 

I was literally listening to Will saying those nasty things to Shirin with an open mouth. I have no idea where this came from and why nobody said anything. It was really disgusting and coming from Will was even more shocking. I understand he felt he was wrongly accused but he didn't in any way have the right to make this so personal.

 

I didn't agree with Jeff accepting the offer Will made not to participate in the immunity challenge and take his letter. A reward has nothing to do with the IC and Will knew he had no chance of winning since it seemed like a physical challenge. I would expect Jeff to deny this, as Shirin said the game has rules, you win and you lose, you can't change the rules like that.

 

Regarding the IC, I was disappointed in Sierra and Carolyn who seem rather athletic and they failed miserably. I think Carolyn is counting too much on her HII to even try and Sierra thinks she can just follow Mike to the final three without trying or doing anything.Also I don't get how Mike, Shirin and Jen ended up being such a close alliance. I get Mike feels betrayed by Carolyn, Rodney, Tyler and Will, but what about Dan and Sierra? Has the editing not shown us something?

 

I kinda started liking Dan in this episode, he showed his emotional self more and I liked when he said "Nobody dictates my decision but me". And it's really sweet he has this second vote. I'm expecting a great tribal council. .... Which I didn't see. Dan didn't use his second vote and he voted against Mike. Don't the players wonder what the advantage that Dan won was? Wasn't this discussed?

 

A very good episode overall.

[Miss Scarlet]

 

Jenn -- what a fake. She spouts "play nice" and then talks in her interview about all of the players she "hates". Give me a break. So glad she's gone. Huge, huge fake.

 

This has gotten lost in the shuffle, but ITA. I loved that she didn't realize the irony of her saying "play nice". On any other season without Dan or Will or a Hantz she would have been the meanest one there (I didn't like Nina, but Jenn's treatment of her was terrible. And she complained that Nina needed to be coddled, but really, Jenn was the one that needed coddling. And I think it's pretty telling that Nina sent Joe and Hali positive messages on twitter when they got voted off, but not Jenn.)

 

And as for her calling out people as fake? I've never seen anyone on this show care so much about looking like they cared so little. Someone posted a few weeks back that she's like a sullen teenager who complains about going to Disneyland because her parents are going with her and now I can't unsee that. It's such an accurate description.

 

She complained a lot about being around such horrible people, but I think she benefited from it. I wasn't rooting for her to go home last week and definitely would have preferred someone from the opposing alliance. A lot of viewers liked her specifically because they also hated the same people she hated. But I think even on a season of decent people she would do the same thing and then viewers at home would probably dislike her, because she'd be insulting their favorites.

 

And her final words pretty much illustrated what I've been saying about her all season - I don't find her funny because there's no substance to what she says. A comedian wouldn't get up and have their whole routine just be like "I hate this person. I hate this other person. Oh and don't forget this third person. They suck too." She was never able to articulate in a witty or clever way why she hated these people.

 

When I hear Survivors complaining about someone being annoying I always picture Edgardo and Rocky listening to the girls talk abut their make-up routines and making throat cutting suicide gestures. "She's annoying," often means, " She talks about things I'm not interested in," and to people like Dan and Rodney that would be almost any subject other than sports or hilarious incidents of flatulence.

I think this also applies to Jenn. She doesn't seem to like anyone who's at all different from her.

 

I liked her in her RHAP exit interview and some others ones, but I think the revisionist history she's trying to sell in them is such crap. In all of the ones I read she has said that she wasn't really quitting and that it was a strategy, but contradicts herself by also saying that she wanted to leave and didn't want to be there. She claims that it was so hard for her to see people being that mean to each other in order to win the money. And I'm sorry, but that comes off as such bullcrap. Because, again, she was mean herself, but mainly because it's just revisionist history that turns her trying to quit into some moral/ethical stand and to fit into the "NC" free-spirited facade. Which it wasn't. She was fine with their meanness after the merge when she was in a position of power. It was only after things didn't work out for her that she wanted to take her toy and go home. I think the fact that she's trying to spin it this way is pretty funny and ridiculous. And she does this while pretending to be amused by the negative fan reaction to her quitting and saying it's so hilarious, but then in the next sentence telling people to stop being mad about that because "it's mean".

 

And she's also trying to downplay how much of a fan she was. She claimed on RHAP that she mainly watched the challenges and wanted to see if the "hot guys got voted out". But I remember in her pre-season interview with Gordon Holmes she talked about how pairing up with a guy is dumb because it's always the woman who gets voted out first. So she did watch for some strategy and had a pretty good grasp of it. It's sad how she feel she need to downplay this because she has this 8th grade idea of "cool" is disengaged and not caring.

Edited April 29, 2015 by wudpixie

[scowl]

The treatment of Shirin has got me wondering what is it about her that makes her a target - what is this "scent" that bullies seem to pick up on?

Where to start? She's a woman, she's small, she's not exceptionally pretty, she doesn't have any real friends there yet expects people to defend her, she goes out of her way to make herself a target, and she's passive when she's attacked. She's bully's dream. 

 

For fuck's sake, when Dan was ripping into her about how weak her mind is my head was exploding with comebacks and insults that would have shut his pie hole but she didn't say anything, at least not the way they edited the scene.

[Alapaki]

himela, I think Carolyn's and Sierra's complacency is a function of Rodney's (surprisingly, imo) good gameplay.

 

Sierra feels confident in a Rodney/Sierra/Mike/Dan F4 that has no reason to turn on itself until at least F6/5

Carolyn feels confident in a Rodney/Carolyn/Tyler/Will F4 that has no reason to turn on itself period.

 

Rodney's being the single overlapping point between those two alliances puts him in a great position.

 

I agree that Rodney screwed up royally last week in trying to make a move on Mike too soon.  He didn't need to make that play until after Jenn and Shirin were gone.  Fortunately for him, Mike proceeded to shit the bed so badly that Dan and Sierra felt the need to deprive Mike of a Jenn/Shirin alliance before potentially going after Rodney (if they believe Mike).  

 

I think Mike's behavior also explains his need to align with Shirin and Jenn.  He really burned a bridge with Dan.  He tried (horribly) reaching out to Sierra.  After that I think he was looking for any port in a storm.

 

As far as Dan goes, I think he understands the theory of the game very well. (for example, his comment about having to consider both who you want at FTC and who you want on the jury).  But I'm not sure that he understands how to execute that theory.  For example, he's spent most of the game shitting on most of the people who may very well end up on the jury.

[laurakaye]

I'm a newbie here, and have tried to read every post in this thread.  I have watched this episode four times, and forgive me if this has already been covered, but I have to ask: what was Tyler doing during the auction?  I was watching him carefully, and I am 99% sure he did not bid on any food.  Why did he not go after the advantage with Mike, Carolyn and Dan?  I understand that the players might get to keep the money if they choose not to spend it, but this makes zero sense - hold onto $500 in order to forfeit a 1 in 4 chance at an advantage for a possible $1,000,000?  If anyone can explain his non-moves to me, I would appreciate it.

 

I have been a Survivor fan since Episode One, Season One, and I don't think any episode has captured me, for good and bad, like this one did.

 

EDIT: I have also been wondering - if you want to win the million, you bring Will the Villain to the end with you.  If you're on the jury, do you vote for the person who brought the villain to the end to guarantee a win, or do you vote for the villain because the other final Survivor took the easiest route possible?  (This is assuming a Final Two, I can't wrap my mind around a Final Three with this group of morons).

Edited April 29, 2015 by laurakaye

[enlightenedbum]

There's usually stuff they don't show bid on, but they fast forwarded through so much of it maybe there wasn't.

[Special K]

EDIT: I have also been wondering - if you want to win the million, you bring Will the Villain to the end with you.  If you're on the jury, do you vote for the person who brought the villain to the end to guarantee a win, or do you vote for the villain because the other final Survivor took the easiest route possible?  (This is assuming a Final Two, I can't wrap my mind around a Final Three with this group of morons).

 

Wouldn't it be positively epic if Shirin ended up (somehow -- not spoiled, just speculation) dragging Will to the end as HER goat?  If his bad behavior came back to bite him in the most direct and immediate way!  If you've listened to any of her THs, you can see that, when not being screamed at, she's very well-spoken, I can see her doing well at FTC.

 

It could only be better if she is sitting there at FTC with Will and Dan as her goats and wins.  Maybe that's why those two idiots seem to still hate her so much!

 

[blackwing]

I have also been wondering - if you want to win the million, you bring Will the Villain to the end with you.  If you're on the jury, do you vote for the person who brought the villain to the end to guarantee a win, or do you vote for the villain because the other final Survivor took the easiest route possible?

He comes across badly to the TV audience at home.  But I truly don't think any of the people that were there, with the exception of Shirin, Mike and maybe Jenn, think Will said anything wrong.  The rest of them saw one of their allies get accused of hoarding food and him trying to defend himself.  Almost all of them think Shirin is the most annoying person there, so I'm sure some of them enjoyed seeing Will rip into her.

 

 

 

It could only be better if she is sitting there at FTC with Will and Dan as her goats and wins.  Maybe that's why those two idiots seem to still hate her so much!

There's no way.  Since the votes haven't been read yet, if that was the final 3, I have no doubt that Dan would think he is a landslide winner.  He would think he had the best social and strategic game, Will is useless, and Shirin is annoying.  I think Will would think the same about himself and that he is a landslide winner, Shirin is annoying and Dan is useless.  So if they are being hostile to her, it can't be because they think she won.

Edited April 29, 2015 by blackwing

[Special K]

A girl can hope.  :)

[laurakaye]

Special K - I love this theory.

[needschocolate]

Wouldn't it be positively epic if Shirin ended up (somehow -- not spoiled, just speculation) dragging Will to the end as HER goat?  If his bad behavior came back to bite him in the most direct and immediate way!  If you've listened to any of her THs, you can see that, when not being screamed at, she's very well-spoken, I can see her doing well at FTC.

 

It could only be better if she is sitting there at FTC with Will and Dan as her goats and wins.  Maybe that's why those two idiots seem to still hate her so much!

 

 

Your post made me realize a way that Will's behavior at camp, TC and on twitter would be "okay" - if he and Shirin were in a secret alliance and his attacking her was part of their plan - gets her a little sympathy, creates a little fear of him, keeps their secret alliance off everyone's radar.  

[Special K]

Your post made me realize a way that Will's behavior at camp, TC and on twitter would be "okay" - if he and Shirin were in a secret alliance and his attacking her was part of their plan - gets her a little sympathy, creates a little fear of him, keeps their secret alliance off everyone's radar.  

Mind = blown.

[ratgirlagogo]

 

Edgardo and Rocky listening to the girls talk abut their make-up routines and making throat cutting suicide gestures.  

  You add Lisi and Mookie to Edgardo and Rocky and I feel like cutting MY throat just thinking about them. Rocky vs. Anthony is the most extreme and horrible bullying I've ever seen on Survivor, made worse by Jeff's complete lack of sympathy for Anthony.  ***shuddering*** 

Edited April 30, 2015 by ratgirlagogo