Sweet Fellowship: Duggars and Friends (aka the Bates Family and Other Featured Families Thread)

[Fuzzysox]

You were so right Sew  about Whitney being pregnant and I wanted ot come back and change my answer after I saw a picture of Whitney with that grey sweater and a little belly happening.

 

But I do believe that Alyssa and John aren't far behind in the baby making game.

 

IDK about Brandon and Michael. He seems so asexual. I bet that when it's bed time he would rather read scriptures than have some sexy time with Michael. Oh and why does he always wear brown? 

[Absolom]

I was kind of guessing about the time frame and then saw where they were expecting and did the announcement photo along with Bradley's first birthday photos.  So maybe a little less than 21 months.  It's a relatively normal spacing and a lot better than 13 or 14 months. 

[Micks Picks]

I am unlikely to known when BUB is on.  My normal channel guide doesn't show UP and some other channels.  You have to go to guide then select "channels" and bring up "all channels" before you see that the channel is there.  Otherwise you see HD only.  And the select "all" only stays there for a few minutes, then you default to HD only.  Don't know why but I miss a lot of stuff.  I did see last night.  Gil's mom and dad are really enjoyable.  I do like their telling what they like about somebody on their birthdays.  And their recitations are real and from the heart, not phony servant's heart stuff.  I'm so glad I'm not a Duggar.  My self esteem would be so low I'd off myself, probably.

[Absolom]

Resetting preferences may fix the cable guide problem.

[Kiss my mutt]

I'm so relieved it's her! I don't have uptv so I'll be counting on y'all. They really should put it on iTunes.

[BitterApple]

IDK about Brandon and Michael. He seems so asexual. I bet that when it's bed time he would rather read scriptures than have some sexy time with Michael. Oh and why does he always wear brown?

The attraction in that relationship is all on Michael's end, not Brandon's. He seems like the kind of guy who could have sex once a month and be cool with that. Michael better have her ovulation cycle down to a science if she ever wants to conceive.

[RazzleberryPie]

Brandon comes off to me as someone who gets married because he thinks it's his Christian Duty. If he were Catholic, he'd be a priest or monk and have a happy life studying scripture and doing good deeds. Poor Michael. That marriage will never be balanced, but at least she isn't stuck at home forever or being farmed out as a servant.

[truthtalk2014]

Ugh. Didn't some Duggar girls get sent here after Josh Incident #1? These miserable old bastards who zero in on the most vulnerable - and no one believed any of the girls mentioned in the article, of course, about their abuse at home. So they knew no one would believe their accounts of these old creeps harming them.

(Gothard touches their FEET?? I guess it is true that he would insist girls wear flip-flops. Basically all these years on TLC, we have been seeing these poor children wearing the required trappings of rape and fetishism. Good lord.)

Not sure if this has been mentioned in prior posts, but when I was growing up, I heard of some churches doing this ritual of people washing the feet of others in a pail of water during a church service.  I remember thinking that it sounded quite yucky to me.  Could this be what the perv (BG) was doing?  If so, it makes perfect sense that he preaches that women should only wear skirts and dresses.  

[Churchhoney]

Could this be what the perv (BG) was doing?  If so, it makes perfect sense that he preaches that women should only wear skirts and dresses.  

 

No. He lures young girls into his office, car, etc., often late in a long day. Tells them he'd like to relax and is going to take off his shoes and that they should, too. Then he maneuvers over to them, corners them, and puts his feet on theirs, forcing a footsie game even if they're shoving their feet under heavy furniture in an attempt to get away from him.

 

He's not being Pope Francis humbling himself to raise up others by washing the feet of drug addicts, prisoners, people of many faiths, such as Muslims, in this time of Muslim hatred. Like Christ.

 

There are many accounts of what Gothard does. It's forced footsie with the most vulnerable teenagers he can find.

 

Of course, he describes it as "affirmative taps" on the feet of those he is counseling, in an effort to increase their confidence.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Churchhoney

[Tabbygirl521]

No. He lures young girls into his office, car, etc., often late in a long day. Tells them he'd like to relax and is going to take off his shoes and that they should, too. Then he maneuvers over to them, corners them, and puts his feet on theirs, forcing a footsie game even if they're shoving their feet under heavy furniture in an attempt to get away from him.

He's not being Pope Francis humbling himself by washing the feet of drug addicts, prisoners, people of many faiths, such as Muslims, in this time of Muslim hatred. Like Christ.

There are many accounts of what Gothard does. It's forced footsie with the most vulnerable teenagers he can find.

This is easily one of the most nauseating things I have ever read. And the parents have no problem with this? I have a picture of my mother chopping his legs off.

[Churchhoney]

This is easily one of the most nauseating things I have ever read. And the parents have no problem with this? I have a picture of my mother chopping his legs off.

 

I think some of the girls didn't tell their parents for a very long time because they were freaked out and embarrassed and unsure who had really done something wrong, in this cult that always blames the woman and often blames the victim in most situations. Many of the girls he chose were from troubled families whose parents' reactions were so unpredictable that they feared to tell them or feared worse from their parents, who may have been molesters or abusers themselves. And some parents who were told found various reasons to excuse it because Gothard is their little tin god.

 

That pretty much makes the whole crowd despicable, really, I think.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Churchhoney

[BitterApple]

Brandon comes off to me as someone who gets married because he thinks it's his Christian Duty. If he were Catholic, he'd be a priest or monk and have a happy life studying scripture and doing good deeds. Poor Michael. That marriage will never be balanced, but at least she isn't stuck at home forever or being farmed out as a servant.

Agree 100%. I don't mean to go all Rules here, but IMO, relationships where the woman is the chaser and more heavily invested are always doomed. Michael seems blissfully clueless though, she's just happy she didn't end up as a Tabitha Paine or Jana Duggar.

[JoanArc]

 

Of course, he describes it as "affirmative taps" on the feet of those he is counseling, in an effort to increase their confidence.

I'd love to hear what he calls the rapes. So twisted.

[Sew Sumi]

I'm just so glad that Gothard was named as a defendant in the updated complaint. 

 

And for something completely different, Gil Bates was one of those "8 pound premies." Seems as if Papa Bill and Mama Jane (my spirit animal) had a little fun about 6 weeks before their wedding (wedding 5/24/64; Gil's birth 1/1/65). Oops! :D

[leighdear]

Regarding the Bates and their TV show....This IS Gil Bates we're talking about, right?  

 

The man who sits on the IBLP board and who decided to allow Bill Gothard himself to direct the "investigation" into the sexual abuse?  The "investigation" that showed nobody was abused and they were all just innocent & godly men?  

 

The Gil Bates that obviously stood by with his cronies and allowed widespread abuse of teenage girls to occur for YEARS?  The family has directly profited from the IBLP and it's disgusting practices?  Those people are "fun"?  

 

I must be totally misunderstanding how that family is fine to watch and should be admired.   

[Sew Sumi]

And he has married off all of his daughters to IBLP Royalty. One of whom being a fellow board member who is a physician who examined one of the complainants AND GAVE HER A PROTEIN BAR!!!!! Physicians are mandatory reporters, yet good ole Christian Dr. Paine TURNED HIS BACK ON THE GIRL. 

 

 I hold out some hope for Alyssa, once her delusional father in law gets voted out of the House of Representatives, because he's trying to implement Gothard stuff all over his district, which includes Orlando. Thank the Goddess that his bid to be Speaker of the House was basically laughed at by fellow Republicans, that's how crazy out there he is. And then there's Brandon, who still works at fucking Headquarters (but hasn't made the move to TX yet...I guess they haven't sold ALL the IL property yet). 

 

I think some cut them more slack because they seem to value education more than the Duggars (Clown College is better than no college) and that the kids seem to be able to speak their minds more openly than the Duggarbots. But they're still insidiously IBLP to the core. I hope Gil is sweating bullets right about now. 

[Muffyn]

I'd love to hear what he calls the rapes. So twisted.

An internally affirmative touch?  it horrifies me that people follow this man.  They have been covering up his acts for years.  

[leighdear]

The only individuals of either family that I see as innocent of the pervasive and disgusting stench of Gothard evil are the children under 18. Once a Bates or Duggar hits legal age, they can choose.  I don't care how influenced, indoctrinated or trained they are, they know they can choose.  

[Sew Sumi]

Zach did choose a pretty "normal" girl, but they sure indoctrinated her tout de suite. With Whitney's history, she could have easily been one of Gothard's victims. I can see that she was probably searching for something when she met Zach. Pity that she fell in with a cult. Then we have Nathan, whose girlfriend is also IBLP. She was on one of  the summer SOS missioncations, or maybe it was the December one (explaining why the Bateses were in NYC so close to Christmas). She posted some pics of her with the "natives" on her Instagram. 

[Churchhoney]

This is easily one of the most nauseating things I have ever read.

 

Try to imagine what went on in the minds of the apparently many people at "headquarters" who knew about this stuff, heard about this stuff, in some cases even saw some of this stuff, for years and years and years, but didn't quit, run screaming to the police, punch the bastard in the head, demand that he stop, tell the girls' parents, burn down his damn house, tell an investigative reporter, or anything.....Just knew about these nauseating things -- that went on for decades -- and, apparently, just went on pursuing their programs, collecting their money, recruiting more people, shutting up those girls.

 

Then, of course, there are lots of institutions in which similar things have gone on, with sex abuse, torture, every rotten thing you can imagine. Humans really are just sheep, in general, I suppose. Sheep who are mean, selfish, and utterly thoughtless. Apologies to the sheep, but I don't know what else it is except a mindless heartless herd.

 

Really makes it hard to have any hope for humanity when you think about this crap.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Churchhoney

[louannems]

Well if she nursed longer than the Gothard-prescribed 6 months, that could delay things a bit. The soonest I ever started cycling postpartum was 11 months.

I cycled 6 weeks post-partum after all of my three births, and that was with nursing only. But some pacifier use.

[becca3891]

Whoa. Be careful what you ask for, IBLP Board.

 

I have to say I'm a little skeptical of the rape claim, just because his particular warp seems to go in other directions. And BG certainly contributed mightily to the destruction of that poor damaged young woman, whatever it is he actually did to her physically. But even without it, there's such a huge amount of stuff here. Hard to see  how this could get completely blown off. Although it certainly has been evaded successfully for a helluva long time.

On principle, I really try to avoid ever questioning the veracity of sexual abuse claims. But I, too, was taken by surprise with the recent rape accusations. I had Gothard pegged for a repressed creep who justified all his molesting/harassment because technically, he wasn't doing anything overtly sexual like touching breasts. I completely agree that no matter what, his dozens of victims were badly damaged emotionally at the very least. And some nagging fear in the back of my mind does also wonder if in his mind, raping a girl who already said she'd been raped was no big deal, because she was already "damaged goods." It is a horrific thought.

 

Whitney is pregnant with baby no. 2. I'm surprised they waited two years  between pregnancies.  Maybe Whitney is using birth control?

Not even close. Bradley was born last October 29 so there wasn't much more than a year between pregnancies.

 

I was kind of guessing about the time frame and then saw where they were expecting and did the announcement photo along with Bradley's first birthday photos.  So maybe a little less than 21 months.  It's a relatively normal spacing and a lot better than 13 or 14 months. 

It all comes down to whether or not a woman's body resumes the menstrual cycle while breastfeeding. Some do, some don't. I knew plenty of Quiverfull families growing up who had more than two years between pregnancies, with no birth control. And then of course there are miscarriages and other fertility issues. But even Michelle didn't give birth every 13-14 months. Her spacing was typically more like 16-18 months.

Edited January 9, 2016 by becca3891

[Ilovemylabs]

Not sure if this has been mentioned in prior posts, but when I was growing up, I heard of some churches doing this ritual of people washing the feet of others in a pail of water during a church service.  I remember thinking that it sounded quite yucky to me.  Could this be what the perv (BG) was doing?  If so, it makes perfect sense that he preaches that women should only wear skirts and dresses.  

The foot washing is Biblical.  Jesus washed the feet of his disciples to indicate his humility (he came as a servant).  Servants washed others' feet when they entered a house because people of that era and place wore sandals, so their feet would get very dusty/dirty.  Our pastor does the same during Lent (I think during Holy week) and we are Lutheran.  It is symbolic.  There is nothing remotely sexual about it.  I should add that not all Lutherans do this.  It is a practice of my pastor and, no, you don't have to have your feet washed if you don't want to!

Edited January 9, 2016 by Ilovemylabs

[RazzleberryPie]

The foot washing is Biblical.  Jesus washed the feet of his disciples to indicate his humility (he came as a servant).  Servants washed others' feet when they entered a house because people of that era and place wore sandals, so their feet would get very dusty/dirty.  Our pastor does the same during Lent (I think during Holy week) and we are Lutheran.  It is symbolic.  There is nothing remotely sexual about it.  I should add that not all Lutherans do this.  It is a practice of my pastor and, no, you don't have to have your feet washed if you don't want to!

I've seen Methodists, Baptists and Pentecostals have foot washing services as well. Ilovemylabs is absolutely 100% correct that there is NOTHING sexual, romantic or mandatory about it. It's to show humbleness and hospitality - being willing to wash the dirty feet of others shows that you respect them and are all on the same 'level' - just as Jesus, the Son of God, humbled himself to wash the feet of his disciples.

I will add that most churches, for modesty's sake, separated men and women - men washed men, women washed women, but that's cultural, not a biblical mandate. When women wore skirts and stockings, and had to remove stockings, it wasn't culturally appropriate for men to touch their feet and ankles.

Gothard was playing forced footsie with girls who were resistant, but terrified to say no. The End.

[mbutterfly]

The foot washing is Biblical.  Jesus washed the feet of his disciples to indicate his humility (he came as a servant).  Servants washed others' feet when they entered a house because people of that era and place wore sandals, so their feet would get very dusty/dirty.  Our pastor does the same during Lent (I think during Holy week) and we are Lutheran.  It is symbolic.  There is nothing remotely sexual about it.  I should add that not all Lutherans do this.  It is a practice of my pastor and, no, you don't have to have your feet washed if you don't want to!

We Methodists have much the same, also symbolic of servanthood. Some pastors do it more than others. If we have it during Holy Week it is on Maundy Thursday, the night before Good Friday, observed as the night of the Lord's Supper. We sometimes have a foot washing during a retreat in which the participants wash one another's feet. Anyone who is uncomfortable can have hands washed instead.

[MunichNark]

I'm somewhat disappointed that Whitney is pregnant again. Their wee one is barely a year old and she must surely be past the 3 months mark. Sigh.....and he's such a dote. I hope they won't go the same route as Zac's parents.

[GeeGolly]

I'm somewhat disappointed that Whitney is pregnant again. Their wee one is barely a year old and she must surely be past the 3 months mark. Sigh.....and he's such a dote. I hope they won't go the same route as Zac's parents.

It appears that the only one experimenting with un-Gothard rules is Alyssa, who occasionally wears pants.

[BitterApple]

I'm somewhat disappointed that Whitney is pregnant again. Their wee one is barely a year old and she must surely be past the 3 months mark. Sigh.....and he's such a dote. I hope they won't go the same route as Zac's parents.

I agree. Hopefully they just want two or three kids closer in age rather than a child army. I also hope Zach remembers the original Bates home was a glorified shack and none of the kids had health insurance. The family was dirt poor before TLC and the Duggars stepped in. Supporting 12 kids on a cop's salary isn't going to be easy.

[louannems]

I definitely remember the first time the Duggars visited the Bates, at least on TV. They were so poor and thin and threadbare.

[Zahdii]

I definitely remember the first time the Duggars visited the Bates, at least on TV. They were so poor and thin and threadbare.

 

That's probably why JB and TLC featured the Bates family in the first places, and why they kept going back.  The Bates family had the same number of kids in the end, before that they were competing to see who could have the most, and it was always a tight race.  But the Duggars had TLC behind them, so they could show up and 'help' the poor, downtrodden Bates family.

 

I never saw any real friendship between the parents of the two families, I'm not even sure if the two families had spent any significant amount of time together before the Duggars showed up to fix up the poor Bates family's house.  Someone with a better memory than me will have to chime in, but I think that when the Duggars showed up to help with renovations on the Bates home JB decided that what was planned wasn't enough and proceeded to tear down walls and plan more additions that origionally planned.  Then after a few days of making sure that the Duggars had enough footage of them 'helping', they went home and left the rest to the Bates.  I'm not really up on all that stuff, so if anyone here knows just how that happened, this would be a good time to fill in the gaps.

 

That cringe worthy special on ABC that featured a childlike Zach asking a shy and embarrassed Sarah Reith if he could court her didn't help.

 

Anyway, I'm positive that JB&M were ecstatic when the Bates first show on TLC tanked.  JB was probably pretty happy when the Bates got some bad flack for their thin rescue horses and their wall devoted to Nathan Bedford Forrest. 

 

But the Bates family drew back, went under the radar for a while, and came back with some impressive PR skills.  Most viewers who watched both the Duggars on TLC and the Bates on UP agreed that the Bates came off better.  While the Duggars keep screwing up, the Bates have learned from their mistakes, which actually makes the Bates more insidious to those who would like to see the Quiverfull Gothardites disappear.

 

When the Josh Files became public it appeared that the Bates might have the last laugh, but the lawsuit against Gothard names Gil Bates as a defendant in helping to cover up the sexual abuse charges against Bill Gothard and his ilk, so the two families are still being the best of frenemies while each hopes the other tanks and gets the heat off themselves.

 

Good times, fundy style.

Edited January 10, 2016 by Zahdii

[MunichNark]

You've pretty much nailed it. Some Duggar child I think admitted that they hadn't seen their so-called good friends in years.

I don't think that the Bates parents actually like the Duggar parents. Some sort of friendship seems to have sprung up between some of the kids (I do remember that some Duggar girls, Jessa? turned up their nose(s) at any innuendo that there may be a courtship between the two families a few years ago), but for the adults, no.

The Bateses were just as crazy but kind of reinvented themselves and come across as much more likeable now, plus they seem to have mellowed and yes, learnt something from their mistakes.

I still do like them, their kids aren't afraid of them, they interact in a normal way and Alyssa hasn't been shunned for wearing jeans

[louannems]

I have a distant memory of the Bates being introduced to us going back even before their renovated house. Was it on 14 or 15 kids? The boys and young men were all in overalls and all the girls in prairie dresses. I thought they were all living in a trailer.

[Muffyn]

 

Anyway, I'm positive that JB&M were ecstatic when the Bates first show on TLC tanked.  JB was probably pretty happy when the Bates got some bad flack for their thin rescue horses and their wall devoted to Nathan Bedford Forrest. 

Good times, fundy style.

One of the more concerning things I've noticed with the Duggars and the fundies at RU (the "treatment" center Joshie is reportedly at) is the pure joy they take in the misfortune of others. They really seem to like to see god doing some smiting.

[MarysWetBar]

One of the more concerning things I've noticed with the Duggars and the fundies at RU (the "treatment" center Joshie is reportedly at) is the pure joy they take in the misfortune of others. They really seem to like to see god doing some smiting.

Unless, of course, it's them having a run of misfortune. Then it's the devil driving...right?

[kokapetl]

JimBob was correctly evaluated and identified by someone at Gothard HQ as being an idiot who should be kept at arms length, and not be privy to any sensitive info. Gil Bates is a board member, he's smart, he knows how to not draw attention to his political activities, knows when to keep his mouth shut. If his son molested his daughters, it would have been "properly" and completely swept under the rug, there would certainly not be a police record, or any record, that would eventually cause his downfall. He's far more capable and dangerous than JimBob.

Edited January 10, 2016 by Kokapetl

[GeeGolly]

The Bates & Duggars go back before the house reno. I believe mostly from the home school conventions. The Duggars brought friends and TLC money to start the renovation, but left the house uninhabitable and the Bates 19 had to live in a hotel while their own friends helped them finish it.

[kokapetl]

I would've guessed that Jimbob's ever larger plans for the Bates house was mostly tv BS, the local government would've had to approve any plan, and they couldn't possibly have been capable of examining and approving a new plan from him each day. Plus the house belongs to Gil, none of the work could've been done without his consent, and he'd probably need to be the one submitting the plans.

[GeeGolly]

I would've guessed that Jimbob's ever larger plans for the Bates house was mostly tv BS, the local government would've had to approve any plan, and they couldn't possibly have been capable of examining and approving a new plan from him each day. Plus the house belongs to Gil, none of the work could've been done without his consent, and he'd probably need to be the one submitting the plans.

It was a little of both if I remember correctly; JB bullshit and Gil greed. But it did get out of hand, and that is a whole new house. The original is behind it that serves as storage.

[Almost 3000]

The Bates & Duggars go back before the house reno. I believe mostly from the home school conventions. The Duggars brought friends and TLC money to start the renovation, but left the house uninhabitable and the Bates 19 had to live in a hotel while their own friends helped them finish it.

Where did this info come from?

[Albanyguy]

One of the more concerning things I've noticed with the Duggars and the fundies at RU (the "treatment" center Joshie is reportedly at) is the pure joy they take in the misfortune of others. They really seem to like to see god doing some smiting.

 

"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man" - Thomas Paine.

[cereality]

I don't doubt that the Bates are the same brand of crazy, but I think they "own it" and are more confident overall. I feel like the Duggars rule their kids by fear -- no one talks to anyone - platonic or romantic - unless Daddy says it's ok; NIKE all over the place; no one dares speak out or express themselves in any way that Mama and Daddy may disapprove of; and even after marriage they maintain a certain control over their kid and inlaw - probably due to money.

 

The Bates OTOH are a little closer to -- we have taught them are fundie ways and we believe they are right so they will follow them in their own lives, but if they don't, that's their choice. That leads to kids including daughters having jobs outside the home and taking college classes and making friends that [gasp] Mama and Daddy may not know; it leads to Tori and Carlin being pretty blunt and honest - even if annoying - they're not scared to talk smack; it leads to Zach hitting on a cute waitress at Sonic and marrying her; it leads to Zach saying that he's going to let his kid watch Winnie the Pooh bc he was never allowed to; it leads to Alyssa being able to say on national TV that she doesn't think she could handle 19 kids and can't imagine having more than 6-8 max; it leads to Alyssa wearing jeans and tank tops and sleeveless dresses. And despite all these decisions that Gil and Kelly may not personally want their kids to make (or may not mind - we don't know really), they haven't disowned any of their kids or locked anyone in a prayer closet that we know of or heavy handedly convinced anyone that even though they are married tank tops and friends besides your husband are NOT ok.

[JenCarroll]

The Bates kids do seem happier than the Duggarlings, and they certainly seem healthier.

[Loves2Dance]

My above comment of David and Princilla is based on this utube

I think what strikes me about their videos; I've seen this one and a few others, is they don't kiss each other. It may be a modesty or privacy thing, but I cringe when JB & M do it, I cringe even harder when Josh & Anna do it, and Gil & Kelly, and all of the other youngers who are recently married---and I cringe because I just don't like watching people kiss, but these two don't do it. For as perfect as they try and make these videos, they're failing in that aspect of loviness---as fake as it probably would be. 

[Micks Picks]

I've been considering the comments about the Duggers being idiots, or seen that way, by the greater Gothard community.  I also have been thinking about the comments regarding how Gil would handle it if his son did the touching thing on his daughters.  In house, over and done.  Boob had Josh confess to half the county, it seems, and seek forgiveness from the church and from a Gothard panel, possibly including Gil Bates and Anna's father.  Then that caused a lot of talk among a lot of people.  It resulted in many comments from people that all was not right, and the Razing Ruth writings that I did not originally see, but heard of and saw excerpts from much later.  Looks like Razing was Right.  Seems like the rumors were right on.

 

But some time went by before they went to the first policeman.  Then some time passed before they ended up at the station giving reports from the kids involved.  I think the reason for the extended sessions with all the victims was because of a report to child services, initiated by the letter lent to Oprah Winfrey.  

 

It seems Boob tried to do the right thing according to Gothard, and handled it through their organization.  Which of course only spread the story.  Whereas Gil would not have gone by the book.  Even though Gil is on the board of IBLP.  Some situations call for privacy and independent thought.  Boob doesn't allow privacy and never thinks independently.  His response since has been to double down on the privacy issue.  Those kids are allowed none.  No advise outside the "church" is accepted.  Yet the church failed him.  

 

I'm pragmatic.  If something doesn't work, I try something else.  Boob won't, and it has been hell for him on earth.

[GeeGolly]

Where did this info come from?

The info of them knowing each other has been talked about in many episodes of the Duggars' show. The reno was an episode on the show. And in an episode of Bringing Up Bates, where the are Spring cleaning, Kelly explains about the reno & hotel stay during a TH.

Edited January 11, 2016 by GeeGolly

[Fuzzysox]

The Bates kids do seem happier than the Duggarlings, and they certainly seem healthier.

Because they are allowed to live and have fun. Their parents don't seem to mentally abuse them like Boob and MeChelle do their kids. 

[queenanne]

I've been considering the comments about the Duggers being idiots, or seen that way, by the greater Gothard community.  I also have been thinking about the comments regarding how Gil would handle it if his son did the touching thing on his daughters.  In house, over and done.  Boob had Josh confess to half the county, it seems, and seek forgiveness from the church and from a Gothard panel, possibly including Gil Bates and Anna's father.  Then that caused a lot of talk among a lot of people.  It resulted in many comments from people that all was not right, and the Razing Ruth writings that I did not originally see, but heard of and saw excerpts from much later.  Looks like Razing was Right.  Seems like the rumors were right on.

 

But some time went by before they went to the first policeman.  Then some time passed before they ended up at the station giving reports from the kids involved.  I think the reason for the extended sessions with all the victims was because of a report to child services, initiated by the letter lent to Oprah Winfrey.  

 

It seems Boob tried to do the right thing according to Gothard, and handled it through their organization.  Which of course only spread the story.  Whereas Gil would not have gone by the book.  Even though Gil is on the board of IBLP.  Some situations call for privacy and independent thought.  Boob doesn't allow privacy and never thinks independently.  His response since has been to double down on the privacy issue.  Those kids are allowed none.  No advise outside the "church" is accepted.  Yet the church failed him.  

 

I'm pragmatic.  If something doesn't work, I try something else.  Boob won't, and it has been hell for him on earth.

 

I'm not so sure that Gil Bates would handle it any differently, and I'm not so sure that if he did, it wouldn't be simply because he was looking to protect Gothard.  I say this, simply and plainly because confessing to the larger church body/other believers, has long been a tenet of Christianity.  Maybe they would not advise it for someone who is underage at the time, but the "accountability principle", was at least once alive and well.

 

Jesus said, “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector” (Matthew 18:15-17).

 

To sum up:  Start your corrective action privately, and if the person stays unrepentant, escalate.  If necessary, escalate it towards making a pronouncement in front of the entire church body; and if that isn't enough to shame them, then they should be "as a Gentile and tax collector", aka, "cast them out from your church body".

[kokapetl]

I've been considering the comments about the Duggers being idiots, or seen that way, by the greater Gothard community. I also have been thinking about the comments regarding how Gil would handle it if his son did the touching thing on his daughters. In house, over and done. Boob had Josh confess to half the county, it seems, and seek forgiveness from the church and from a Gothard panel, possibly including Gil Bates and Anna's father. Then that caused a lot of talk among a lot of people. It resulted in many comments from people that all was not right, and the Razing Ruth writings that I did not originally see, but heard of and saw excerpts from much later. Looks like Razing was Right. Seems like the rumors were right on.

But some time went by before they went to the first policeman. Then some time passed before they ended up at the station giving reports from the kids involved. I think the reason for the extended sessions with all the victims was because of a report to child services, initiated by the letter lent to Oprah Winfrey.

It seems Boob tried to do the right thing according to Gothard, and handled it through their organization. Which of course only spread the story. Whereas Gil would not have gone by the book. Even though Gil is on the board of IBLP. Some situations call for privacy and independent thought. Boob doesn't allow privacy and never thinks independently. His response since has been to double down on the privacy issue. Those kids are allowed none. No advise outside the "church" is accepted. Yet the church failed him.

I'm pragmatic. If something doesn't work, I try something else. Boob won't, and it has been hell for him on earth.

I think by the time JimBob contacted Gothard HQ, a good portion of the local baptist megachurch already knew. It seems that Gothard HQ gave JimBob advice on how to technically notify law enforcement in a way that wouldn't be recorded or trigger an investigation (tell a cop friend), but considering the current allegations against Gothard HQ, that JimBob allowed any of it to get out would not have earned Gothard's trust or respect.

[Churchhoney]

I think by the time JimBob contacted Gothard HQ, a good portion of the local baptist megachurch already knew. It seems that Gothard HQ gave JimBob advice on how to technically notify law enforcement in a way that wouldn't be recorded or trigger an investigation (tell a cop friend), but considering the current allegations against Gothard HQ, that JimBob allowed any of it to get out would not have earned Gothard's trust or respect.

 

Jim Bob's method couldn't earn the trust and respect of regular people with the average amount of ethics (or more) and couldn't earn the trust and respect of a gigantic evil hypocrite with no ethics at all. Plus, it did approximately zero (maybe less) to improve the actual situation. Talk about a fail on every level.

[RazzleberryPie]

Another difference in the Bates and the Duggars is that I don't see the overwhelming arrogance and pride coming from the bates, where the Duggars just ooze it.

The Duggars may say they're just humbly Jesus Others You folks, but they've always been smug and think their 'above' others. They come off as seeing themselves as some sort of royalty who can dictate behavior whole not following it. They seriously think they're Gods Chosen People who 'do things a little differently' and are just so much more spiritual, godly and just 'better' than everyone else. There's not an ounce of humility or humbleness in any of them. They might as well tattoo LOOK AT ME on their foreheads.