Michelle and JimBob aka J'Chelle and Boob

[Cinnabon]

5 hours ago, laurakaye said:

TLC, are you listening?  Toss 20 Fundies out of an airplane, let them parachute onto a deserted island, and make them compete for water, fire, etc.  Maybe give them challenges where they showcase their third grade math skills or something like that.  Make sure Lawson Bates, Jill Rod, Hilaria and Jeremy Vuolo are in the cast and I promise you've got a winning tv show.

I wouldn’t trust TLC after they whitewashed the Duggars for so many years.

[Churchhoney]

4 hours ago, MMEButterfly said:

I don't get so many of the details of the faith Jim Bob professes. 

I'd say that's because it's a "faith" whose details were created primarily by a bunch of guys who want to claim they have God's approval for insisting on rules that mean that, in their closed world and in the afterlife they imagine they deserve, most everything will work out in their favor -- and not in anybody else's favor. 

In other words, it's a "faith" they created entirely for their own purposes, basing it loosely on some scriptures they cherrypicked.

And they didn't create it in good faith, either. They created it 100 percent to serve their own utterly selfish ends. Although I'm sure most have lied to themselves the whole time about their motivations. 

 

 

[Churchhoney]

nvm    hit the wrong icon, as I so often do....

Edited December 16, 2021 by Churchhoney

[Nysha]

9 hours ago, laurakaye said:

TLC, are you listening?  Toss 20 Fundies out of an airplane, let them parachute onto a deserted island, and make them compete for water, fire, etc.  Maybe give them challenges where they showcase their third grade math skills or something like that.  Make sure Lawson Bates, Jill Rod, Hilaria and Jeremy Vuolo are in the cast and I promise you've got a winning tv show.

And if they offered $50,000 as a prize for the last fundy standing they'd have even the more successful ones applying. Hell, JB would kill for a chance to win $50,000 and screw over his competition at the same time.

[emmawoodhouse]

11 minutes ago, Nysha said:

And if they offered $50,000 as a prize for the last fundy standing they'd have even the more successful ones applying. Hell, JB would kill for a chance to win $50,000 and screw over his competition at the same time.

What's the going rate on Survivor these days? Jeremy wouldn't do it for less than what Survivor gets paid. 🙄

[jennblevins]

5 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

What's the going rate on Survivor these days? Jeremy wouldn't do it for less than what Survivor gets paid. 🙄

I kid you not, I had a dream last night where Jinger and Jeremy were a team on The Amazing Race.  Oddly, in my dream they did middling-well, which I doubt they would in real life. 

[satrunrose]

11 hours ago, MMEButterfly said:

I have tried to understand people in this cluster of sects. We all read the Bible differently. I sometimes read the same text differently that I did a year before. That said, how can they possibly justify the lie that a woman can be a deacon or pastor in their churches. Can their be a Christian sect that justifies lying to manipulate? Also, I do not understand woman having no value. I understand placing different values on women than my fellow main line Christians. However, the Bible is clear that a woman is of great value. Have they not studied Proverbs 31? Surely they have. I don't get so many of the details of the faith Jim Bob professes. 

Hilariously, Proverbs 31 seems to be one of those texts that gets thrown around a lot in fundy land, especially on Mothers Day and at weddings. The fact that it describe a women who works, owns property and makes money independently seems utterly lost on them.

[3 is enough]

On the one hand, I would love for the IRS to catch up with Jim Bob and his seemingly endless list of shady LLCs.  Unfortunately that would be catastrophic for most of his kids who have been raised with no skills or education to get decent jobs to support themselves and their families.  It really is disgusting how Jim Bob’s need for total control resulted in the potential to ruin so many lives.

Edited December 17, 2021 by 3 is enough

[Zella]

1 minute ago, 3 is enough said:

Unfortunately that would be catastrophic for most of his kids who have been raised with no skills or education to get decent jobs to support themselves and their families.

I think it would be really rough for them initially for sure, but being weaned from Daddy's influence, even forcibly, would be in all their best interests. 

[Tuxcat]

33 minutes ago, Zella said:

I think it would be really rough for them initially for sure, but being weaned from Daddy's influence, even forcibly, would be in all their best interests. 

Slowly yes -  they might all make it and would be far better off, But we are still talking about minors too and now Anna's 7 hungry mouths. Plus Jessa's 4 really. Who knows how many other grandchildren are dependent on the income. Jim Bob in financial ruins would hurt a lot of little kids that didn't ask to be born into this family. I wish there was a way to get the families to wean - but slowly without all the pain from a giant rip.

And that's why I always wonder what Derrick's end game is. If he is calling for Jim Bob to be ruined, he is at the moment calling for well over half of Jill's family to be ruined alongside. 

 

[Zella]

2 minutes ago, Tuxcat said:

But we are still talking about minors too and now Anna's 7 hungry mouths. Plus Jessa's 4 really. Who knows how many other grandchildren are dependent on the income. Jim Bob in financial ruins would hurt a lot of little kids that didn't ask to be born into this family.

I think a full-grown adult parent who, rather than working, is reliant on a man who is apparently willing to shell out $500,000 to $1,000,000 into defending his son on CSAM charges but uses finances as a cudgel to keep the other kids in line was always a dicey proposition for a livelihood. 

Edited December 17, 2021 by Zella

[emmawoodhouse]

I think the boys who have their own LLCs (like Jason) would make out okay. 

The Seewalds would be in deep doodoo. Ben would have to get a real job, and Jessa would have to start hustling on her SM. 

[Tuxcat]

57 minutes ago, Zella said:

I think a full-grown adult parent who, rather than working, is reliant on a man who is apparently willing to shell out $500,000 to $1,000,000 into defending his son on CSAM charges but uses finances as a cudgel to keep the other kids in line was always a dicey proposition for a livelihood. 

Still, would you want to punish Josie, Johannah, Jennifer, Jordyn, Tyler, Anna's kids... for the bad ethics/actions of their father (s)? If you were their sister, is that what you would want?

[Cinnabon]

2 minutes ago, Tuxcat said:

Still, would you want to punish Josie, Johannah, Jennifer, Jordyn, Tyler, Anna's kids... for the bad ethics/actions of their father (s)? If you were their sister, is that what you would want?

I feel fairly certain none of them would end up living in the street. 

[Zella]

7 minutes ago, Tuxcat said:

Still, would you want to punish Josie, Johannah, Jennifer, Jordyn, Tyler, Anna's kids... for the bad ethics/actions of their father (s)? If you were their sister, is that what you would want?

I don't think people being expected to support their own children is punishment. And as per other comments I've posted today, I'm not really a believer in enabling bad behavior by people just because they're family. All the kids relying on the precarious house of cards that is Jim Bob was never a good idea, and I don't think it's problematic or cruel to point that out and to say it should end. It's not too different, to my mind, than thinking they're not entitled to a TV show just because that's how they've always earned their money. If Jim Bob goes down, maybe Anna and Michelle can actually get a job. Like millions of other people who support their own kids.

Edited December 17, 2021 by Zella

[CalicoKitty]

1 hour ago, emmawoodhouse said:

I think the boys who have their own LLCs (like Jason) would make out okay. 

The Seewalds would be in deep doodoo. Ben would have to get a real job, and Jessa would have to start hustling on her SM. 

I am still not convinced that the boys own anything in their LLCs.  I think it is Bumper Shoot's money that is just under a boy's name.  I really doubt that anyone has access to anything in the LLCs except Boob.

[MsJamieDornan]

2 minutes ago, CalicoKitty said:

I am still not convinced that the boys own anything in their LLCs.  I think it is Bumper Shoot's money that is just under a boy's name.  I really doubt that anyone has access to anything in the LLCs except Boob.

I think you're right. Most are probably for tax dodging purposes.

[Tuxcat]

33 minutes ago, Zella said:

I don't think people being expected to support their own children is punishment. And as per other comments I've posted today, I'm not really a believer in enabling bad behavior by people just because they're family. All the kids relying on the precarious house of cards that is Jim Bob was never a good idea, and I don't think it's problematic or cruel to point that out and to say it should end. It's not too different, to my mind, than thinking they're not entitled to a TV show just because that's how they've always earned their money. If Jim Bob goes down, maybe Anna and Michelle can actually get a job. Like millions of other people who support their own kids.

Fair enough. I think it would be hard for either woman to get a job though - Anna the supportive wife of a child sex offender and Michelle the already proven liar and wife of the fallen emperor. It would be harder for them than most given the circumstances and the public scrutiny. But your point is valid. Just a thought exercise that goes around in my head. I can never decide what I want.

Edited December 17, 2021 by Tuxcat

[Zella]

27 minutes ago, Tuxcat said:

Fair enough. I think it would be hard for either woman to get it job though - Anna the supportive wife of a child sex offender and Michelle the already proven liar and wife of the fallen emperor. It would be harder for them than most given the circumstances and the public scrutiny. But your point is valid. Just a thought exercise that goes around in my head. I can never decide what I want.

I'm sure it would be, even beyond their image issues, which just points to how ridiculous and impractical this whole system is to begin with. They're all horrible ill-equipped for the real world, but I don't think that's an excuse to not yeet them out into it like everyone else. 

P.S. You'd also probably have to wean Michelle off whatever is she is zonked out on all day before you could get her on a job.

 

Edited December 17, 2021 by Zella

[YupItsMe]

3 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

I think the boys who have their own LLCs (like Jason) would make out okay. 

The Seewalds would be in deep doodoo. Ben would have to get a real job, and Jessa would have to start hustling on her SM. 

Are there any LLCs in Jessa’s name?

[Albanyguy]

I think that if (when) the house of cards collapses, most of them will make a full-time career of grifting off their leghumpers and fellow Fundies a la Jill Rodrigues.

[crazy8s]

3 hours ago, YupItsMe said:

Are there any LLCs in Jessa’s name?

 

6 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

I think the boys who have their own LLCs (like Jason) would make out okay. 

The Seewalds would be in deep doodoo. Ben would have to get a real job, and Jessa would have to start hustling on her SM. 

Jessa, Joe and Joy have no llcs. They all got houses from Mary instead it seems. Austin has 2 llcs, but not connected to JB.

As far as the boys' llcs. I have been thinking about this, Jeer has 3 planes registered to llcs that are in only his name, so I would think he owns the planes. But if JB goes under would Jeer have money for all that it takes to own 3 planes? Fuel, maintenance, repairs, parking/storage or whatever airport fees. Would he keep up any paper work required  for both the planes and the llcs?  He does have a pilot's license, real estate license and a contractor's license.

Jason and James seem to have some skills but does Jason own any of the tools, saws or even that new fancy construction trailer? Jason owns 7 properties in his own name or through his llc.  Jason has a contractor's license James seems to be able to operate heavy equipment, but I doubt his llc owns that excavator. Even if he did he would he have a place to store such a thing and money for maintenance etc. I'm guessing most of James' work is clearing lots and such for the Duggar house building enterprise.

Jana has the tattoo parlor building that is in only her name. Surely she could sell that outright and have a nice bit of money to start a new life.

Josiah purchased 2 lots in the last few months in Bella Vista. Dwain Swanson has purchased more than 30 in the last year or so. Josiah has a contractor's license. but again probably owns no equipment to build anything without JB. Josiah and Lauren live in a non duggar owned home.

of the boys, Jed and Joe would seem the ones most dependent on JB. JB owns Champion Motor Cars and the house Jed and Katey live in. Jed has a realtor license but has never had even one listing I have ever seen. Joe seems to list a house here and there, but all appear to be duggar builds on lots in Bella Vista filtered through various duggar llcs or llcs of their sweet friends.

Of the girls, Jessa is the most dependent on JB. She's been hinting a new house is coming soon. Maybe that's why Bin is embarrassing himself on social media. got to stay on the good side of pops until the new house comes through.

I think all of them would be hurting if they ever had to purchase and pay for their own vehicles like normal people. All of their cars seem to be filtered through the Jed's Car lot, so I doubt they pay anything at all.

 

 

[merylinkid]

6 hours ago, Zella said:

I don't think people being expected to support their own children is punishment. And as per other comments I've posted today, I'm not really a believer in enabling bad behavior by people just because they're family. All the kids relying on the precarious house of cards that is Jim Bob was never a good idea, and I don't think it's problematic or cruel to point that out and to say it should end. It's not too different, to my mind, than thinking they're not entitled to a TV show just because that's how they've always earned their money. If Jim Bob goes down, maybe Anna and Michelle can actually get a job. Like millions of other people who support their own kids.

Yep, yep, yep.    We - and law enforcement -- can't care more about what happens to the minor kids than the adult parents themselves do.   If everyone over 18 has not bothered to develop ANY life skills that would allow them to function without Head Idiot (who is not going to be around forever whether it be jail or you know the end that awaits us all), that's on THEM.   The rest of the world doesn't have to let Head Idiot run around like a he actually is somebody important and ignoring little things like TAX LAWS just because it might hurt the minor kids.    Heck jails have PLENTY of people in them with kids.   But that doesn't stop the parents from being convicted.

Just remember, it was tax evasion that finally got Al Capone.   And Head Idiot is not a better businessman than Capone.

[SusanM]

2 hours ago, merylinkid said:

 If everyone over 18 has not bothered to develop ANY life skills that would allow them to function without Head Idiot (who is not going to be around forever whether it be jail or you know the end that awaits us all), that's on THEM. 

Someone I know used to be a Duggar booster and one of the defenses she had for the parents marrying off their daughters at such young ages, and with zero ability to support themselves, was that this was the norm not so long ago and according to her worked out just fine.

 I said  that the point of those marriages was to match the daughter up with someone who could actually support her.  This wasn't something the Duggar parents seemed to be at all concerned about when they were picking out husbands for their daughters.  Marry them off to a fellow fundie and fill the house with kids.  Let god and Jim Bob provide I guess.

Edited December 17, 2021 by SusannahM

[laurakaye]

3 hours ago, crazy8s said:

 

Jessa, Joe and Joy have no llcs. They all got houses from Mary instead it seems. Austin has 2 llcs, but not connected to JB.

Jana has the tattoo parlor building that is in only her name. Surely she could sell that outright and have a nice bit of money to start a new life.

Josiah purchased 2 lots in the last few months in Bella Vista.  Josiah has a contractor's license. but again probably owns no equipment to build anything without JB.

Joe seems to list a house here and there, but all appear to be duggar builds on lots in Bella Vista filtered through various duggar llcs or llcs of their sweet friends.

I think all of them would be hurting if they ever had to purchase and pay for their own vehicles like normal people. All of their cars seem to be filtered through the Jed's Car lot, so I doubt they pay anything at all.

This entire post was informative and very well-written, but it still makes my head spin.  I left in the parts that most confused me, lol...it's a lot.

This whole house of cards is completely bizarre to me because it seems we have Jim Bob as master puppeteer controlling his kids, their spouses, and his grandkids using a complicated series of tangled strings.  If any of the strings get cut, any number of his offspring would get kicked to the curb without a means of support - at least from JB, who has conditioned and grown them to depend on him and him alone.  Having the fate of that many humans under one person's control is unsettling to say the least.  Not sure how he sleeps at night, but unfortunately he probably sleeps pretty good under the cloak of thinking that he's got it all figured out and that he's smarter than everyone else, but I digress.  

So Josiah could be a contractor but not without daddy paying for the equipment.  They all drive cars from a Duggar owned car lot.  The houses they live in are Duggar flips, listed by one Duggar and purchased by another.  Their businesses are so tangled up in each other and directed by Blob - it seems like only a matter of time before one business falls, leading to another and another and before Blob can empty another can of Aquanet, he's got a line of kids and their babies at his door asking him to take them in.  It just boggles my mind that he would want to create a tribe of humans so dependent on him when he himself has to know that the insular world he has created for them wasn't going to last forever...right?

TL;DR - JB's a jerk and I look forward to watching him fall.  I just hope his kids survive and figure out how to exist without him.

Edited December 17, 2021 by laurakaye

[Minivanessa]

I agree with these recent posts in general. But I do have one comment about the equipment for construction projects. It's actually not unusual for companies to rent equipment [especially expensive and/or specialized things] for jobs - vs buying it and taking on the full time financial burdens of ownership. I'm not saying one way or the other is right or wrong; there are several issues to be considered in each case. Including tax considerations, liquidity, and the availability of the equipment on the rental market. Similarly to contractors hiring subcontractors vs completing a job 100% with their own forces. 

Now I have no reason to think JB's offspring are particularly well trained or experienced in the businesses they're in. Just that you can't draw conclusions about the health of a construction company if all you look at is their heavy equipment list.

And this is a very minor point in the larger discussion. 

[Churchhoney]

44 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

This entire post was informative and very well-written, but it still makes my head spin.  I left in the parts that most confused me, lol...it's a lot.

This whole house of cards is completely bizarre to me because it seems we have Jim Bob as master puppeteer controlling the strings of his kids, their spouses, and his grandkids using a complicated series of tangled strings.  If any of the strings get cut, any number of his offspring would get kicked to the curb without a means of support - at least from JB, who has conditioned and grown them to depend on him and him alone.  Having the fate of that many humans under one person's control is unsettling to say the least.  Not sure how he sleeps at night, but unfortunately he probably sleeps pretty good under the cloak of thinking that he's got it all figured out and that he's smarter than everyone else, but I digress.  

So Josiah could be a contractor but not without daddy paying for the equipment.  They all drive cars from a Duggar owned car lot.  The houses they live in are Duggar flips, listed by one Duggar and purchased by another.  Their businesses are so tangled up in each other and directed by Blob - it seems like only a matter of time before one business falls, leading to another and another and before Blob can empty another can of Aquanet, he's got a line of kids and their babies at his door asking him to take them in.  It just boggles my mind that he would want to create a tribe of humans so dependent on him when he himself has to know that the insular world he has created for them wasn't going to last forever...right?

TL;DR - JB's a jerk and I look forward to watching him fall.  I just hope his kids survive and figure out how to exist without him.

This is the way the story looks to me, based on what I've read in Gothard texts and read/heard from believing and apostate cult/sect members--

You know all that reading aloud from Genesis that the Seewalds do? Well, Gothard, and by extension JB and M, have focused on Genesis too.

And Gothard gave the patriarchs who paid his salary the idea that what God promised Abraham in Genesis God was now promising to IBLP conservative U.S. Christian men in this generation -- "And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed"  Gen. 26:4.

In the Gothard version this only happens and the offspring will only carry this blessing if they're kept in lockstep and fully under the patriarch's umbrella, for life. (and the promise of this is why a bunch of misguided insecure dunderheads paid his salary) 

The prospect of being Abraham in the Genesis story is a huge ego boost for some insecure, fearful, greedy-to-have-more-power-than-they-fear-they-do people, apparently. And JB and M are clearly among those who've craved that ego boost and who've gone all the way with believing in it. (and their ability to produce 19 surviving offspring has further fed their egos and convinced them that this scheme they've accepted is, indeed, God's plan, especially for them, since God sealed the deal with the sign of ultra-fertility he placed on them -- numerous as the stars, 200 grandbabies, etc -- and the way God set them up as the ideal for other Christians to model themselves on, including on television)

Hence, the family business compound stealth prison complete with snowboarding vacations and private planes they've constructed to make sure the male Duggarlings stay under the umbrella as long as the patriarch lives. 

(Females who marry get their husband's umbrella over them, so those young wives actually end up under their fathers-in-law's umbrellas, if the fathers-in-law are patriarch sorts, because their sons are supposed to stay under their fathers' umbrellas for life, too. Your patriarchy privileges -- mainly being viewed as the be-all and end-all of your entire -- huge -- family's existence -- last until death. And your wife gets to bask in your reflected glory -- that's why she's always gazing up into your face from down below.)  

And this story, the Genesis story being true still in our time, is the big story in JB's and M's imaginations. So any other considerations about whether this setup might somehow cripple the sons or whatever is absolutely irrelevant and an idea you'd brush away as if it were a fly. It's nothing. It's a satanic temporal temptation devised to get you to ignore the big picture: that God intends you to people the Earth with your blessed offspring. 

I'm not even kidding. I think it's nearly a sure bet that, if pressed, JB and M would produce some garbly version of this tale as the first principle they hold somewhere down in their tiny minds. 

Edited December 17, 2021 by Churchhoney

[GeeGolly]

I don't see the web of businesses as JB's intent of control. I see the businesses as sort of cutting out the middle man or supporting each Duggar owned business.

For example, I work for a large mental health agency. We have programs that serve just about every need. It makes sense financially to refer our clients to programs we run. (It also makes sense for continuity of care) Most of our major insurers insist we offer other services, from other agencies, as an option. This must be documented each time we make a referral. The insurers want to make sure the clients have options, but they really want to make sure we're not trying to fill our own pocketbook.

So business wise, it makes sense to me, that the Duggars try and do everything 'inhouse'. 

[laurakaye]

15 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

In the Gothard version this only happens and the offspring will only carry this blessing if they're kept in lockstep and fully under the patriarch's umbrella, for life. (and the promise of this is why a bunch of misguided insecure dunderheads paid his salary) 

I'm not even kidding. If pressed, JB and M have some garbly version of this tale as a first principle somewhere down in their tiny minds. 

Another great explanation.  I listen to more cult podcasts than I probably should, plus reading here, and I learn so much.

With the above bolded parts, what I wonder is what happens when the Golden Son, the Prince of Posterity, ends up in the slammer for 20+ years?  I don't suppose that results in any soul-searching on JB and Michelle's part.  But JB's money came from a show that was canceled due to the son that was supposed to carry his torch or whatever...was JB shrewd enough to start stashing cash even 10 years ago when Pest's issues started coming to light?  Who is going to do business with this guy and by extension, his sons?  Or will the Fundie community still rally around the Duggars and keep the lights on and the 200 grandbabies fed?  That should rest squarely on Blob's shoulders.  He covered up for his son and left his daughters to heal their own wounds.  Whatever their beliefs, will their community shun them because they don't want to be associated with them anymore?  Or is JB still king because he was once on TV and gave their community the exposure they seem to crave?

I think that's enough questions for now, lol, my coffee is starting to wear off.

[jschoolgirl]

1 hour ago, SusannahM said:

Someone I know used to be a Duggar booster and one of the defenses she had for the parents marrying off their daughters at such young ages, and with zero ability to support themselves, was that this was the norm not so long ago and according to her worked out just fine.

 I said  that the point of those marriages was to match the daughter up with someone who could actually support her.  This wasn't something the Duggar parents seemed to be at all concerned about when they were picking out husbands for their daughters.  Marry them off to a fellow fundie and fill the house with kids.  Let god and Jim Bob provide I guess.

What was her response? And what changed her mind and made her a former booster?

[Tikichick]

1 hour ago, SusannahM said:

Someone I know used to be a Duggar booster and one of the defenses she had for the parents marrying off their daughters at such young ages, and with zero ability to support themselves, was that this was the norm not so long ago and according to her worked out just fine.

 I said  that the point of those marriages was to match the daughter up with someone who could actually support her.  This wasn't something the Duggar parents seemed to be at all concerned about when they were picking out husbands for their daughters.  Marry them off to a fellow fundie and fill the house with kids.  Let god and Jim Bob provide I guess.

Yep, women really were better off when they were simply chattel.   The good old days.  Not.

[Churchhoney]

38 minutes ago, laurakaye said:

Another great explanation.  I listen to more cult podcasts than I probably should, plus reading here, and I learn so much.

With the above bolded parts, what I wonder is what happens when the Golden Son, the Prince of Posterity, ends up in the slammer for 20+ years?  I don't suppose that results in any soul-searching on JB and Michelle's part.  But JB's money came from a show that was canceled due to the son that was supposed to carry his torch or whatever...was JB shrewd enough to start stashing cash even 10 years ago when Pest's issues started coming to light?  Who is going to do business with this guy and by extension, his sons?  Or will the Fundie community still rally around the Duggars and keep the lights on and the 200 grandbabies fed?  That should rest squarely on Blob's shoulders.  He covered up for his son and left his daughters to heal their own wounds.  Whatever their beliefs, will their community shun them because they don't want to be associated with them anymore?  Or is JB still king because he was once on TV and gave their community the exposure they seem to crave?

I think that's enough questions for now, lol, my coffee is starting to wear off.

Well, I'd bet that to some degree JB is probably cratering a bit under the current situation and that Meeechelle also is experiencing tremors. Maybe that's part of why she never showed up at court -- they weren't sure she could cope with this -- And that the tremors aren't just about anybody's son but about somebody who's a lynchpin of their cult/sect/family myth. Just seems to me that post-law-enforcement doubling down on paranoia and attempts to revivify their beliefs and influence (such as the Branson crusade and so on) could be signs that JB's been very occupied for the past couple years in finding ways to reassert the truth of their myths in the face of this problem.... 

[Tuxcat]

5 hours ago, merylinkid said:

The rest of the world doesn't have to let Head Idiot run around like a he actually is somebody important and ignoring little things like TAX LAWS just because it might hurt the minor kids.

To be fair, I personally was questioning Derrick's motivations in continually pecking away at the Duggars. Though his target has been Jim Bob, his pecking still affects the rest of  the family web - Jill's family - children - because of their entanglement. Of course if JB is found guilty of a crime, I would never suggest he should be let off because he has kids. 

If Derrick is aware of a crime, then he should probably just inform prosecutors, and or sue. Maybe he's preparing for that although I'm not sure his twitter rants help his credibility as a plaintiff and/or witness.

Thanks to everyone that is helping to untangle this mysterious LLC/Duggar debacle. I vacillate between thinking JB is some master puppeteer ---or is he just someone who really had no idea how to raise 19 independent children and bumbled his way into this mess.

[Churchhoney]

15 minutes ago, Tuxcat said:

or is he just someone who really had no idea how to raise 19 independent children and bumbled his way into this mess.

Their cult preaches and preaches and preaches and preaches and preaches that your offspring should never act independently of their fathers even into the far reaches of adulthood.......So what I want to know is, Could it be an accident that you're a longtime devotee to this cult -- a leader of this cult, a repeated speaker at cult events, an "author" of parenting books that were largely written by people from this cult-- and yet actually be a person who wants to raise independent children? 

Here's the kind of thing the cult the Duggars led -- and want to lead again, clearly -- prescribes and that they clearly continue to prescribe for their own family. Would anyone who had any interest at all in raising independent people approve of something like this, preach something like this, and promote something like this?! I can't imagine it!    You'd have to really stumble in a highly misguided way, seems to me! 

'He went through the courtship process when he was 21.

'In ATI, dating was forbidden, and even having a crush or admitting to liking someone was against the rules. “I spent most of my teen years trying to repress my very normal attraction to women,” he said. “I referred to it in my journals as a ‘monster,’ some sort of evil thing that I had to destroy or else it would destroy me. I knew that I wasn’t allowed to be in love until I had my parents’ permission, and I wasn’t allowed to tell a girl that I was interested in her until I had her parents’ permission and was prepared to marry her.”

'In ATI circles, young people don’t date, they “court,” which means dating with the intention to get married. For Micah, he got his parents’ permission to court a girl when he was 21. He followed all the necessary rules, got the girl’s parents’ permission and even waited until his wedding day to have his first kiss. But the marriage didn’t last. “As it turns out, the whole framework of courtship isn’t a great foundation for a healthy relationship,” he said. “We were divorced before our sixth anniversary.”

'“It was a terrible place to be a 19-year-old.”

'After graduating from high school, Micah enthusiastically joined an ATI training center, working at several locations throughout the country. “At first I really liked the training centers because I got to be around other people a lot and felt a sense of purpose and belonging,” he said. “But as time went on, I felt the walls closing in and my soul being suffocated.” The longer he stayed there, he started to fall into a deep depression as he felt exhausted by the environment and the strict rules. He had a 9 p.m. curfew, wasn’t allowed to wear jeans or T-shirts, couldn’t speak to anyone of the opposite sex and had to do mandatory fasting on Sundays. “The culture there was one of non-stop religious performance — always trying to do more for God and be more perfect,” he said. “It was a terrible place to be a 19-year-old.”

'While there, he also witnessed things he would later realize were totally inappropriate. “None of us knew at the time about the allegations of sexual impropriety by Bill Gothard that would be forthcoming, but we saw the girls who he picked out as his favorites,” he said. “We all knew he had a type, and we knew that he gave extra attention to those girls — promising them special roles in his various programs and outreaches.”

'After being at the centers for two years, he started feeling jaded about ATI. “During my time there, I saw up close that it was a system of extreme authoritarianism, and I began to question the fundamentalist approach to Christianity that was pervasive everywhere I went,” he said. “I started to feel the cognitive dissonance between what we were taught and what Jesus had said.”

Etc.! 

https://www.intouchweekly.com/posts/duggars-religion-151762/

[Cinnabon]

6 hours ago, crazy8s said:

Dwain Swanson has purchased more than 30 in the last year or so. J

30? Where does all his money come from?

[cmr2014]

1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

Their cult preaches and preaches and preaches and preaches and preaches that your offspring should never act independently of their fathers even into the far reaches of adulthood.......So what I want to know is, Could it be an accident that you're a longtime devotee to this cult -- a leader of this cult, a repeated speaker at cult events, an "author" of parenting books that were largely written by people from this cult-- and yet actually be a person who wants to raise independent children? 

Here's the kind of thing the cult the Duggars led -- and want to lead again, clearly -- prescribes and that they clearly continue to prescribe for their own family. Would anyone who had any interest at all in raising independent people approve of something like this, preach something like this, and promote something like this?! I can't imagine it!    You'd have to really stumble in a highly misguided way, seems to me! 

'He went through the courtship process when he was 21.

'In ATI, dating was forbidden, and even having a crush or admitting to liking someone was against the rules. “I spent most of my teen years trying to repress my very normal attraction to women,” he said. “I referred to it in my journals as a ‘monster,’ some sort of evil thing that I had to destroy or else it would destroy me. I knew that I wasn’t allowed to be in love until I had my parents’ permission, and I wasn’t allowed to tell a girl that I was interested in her until I had her parents’ permission and was prepared to marry her.”

'In ATI circles, young people don’t date, they “court,” which means dating with the intention to get married. For Micah, he got his parents’ permission to court a girl when he was 21. He followed all the necessary rules, got the girl’s parents’ permission and even waited until his wedding day to have his first kiss. But the marriage didn’t last. “As it turns out, the whole framework of courtship isn’t a great foundation for a healthy relationship,” he said. “We were divorced before our sixth anniversary.”

'“It was a terrible place to be a 19-year-old.”

'After graduating from high school, Micah enthusiastically joined an ATI training center, working at several locations throughout the country. “At first I really liked the training centers because I got to be around other people a lot and felt a sense of purpose and belonging,” he said. “But as time went on, I felt the walls closing in and my soul being suffocated.” The longer he stayed there, he started to fall into a deep depression as he felt exhausted by the environment and the strict rules. He had a 9 p.m. curfew, wasn’t allowed to wear jeans or T-shirts, couldn’t speak to anyone of the opposite sex and had to do mandatory fasting on Sundays. “The culture there was one of non-stop religious performance — always trying to do more for God and be more perfect,” he said. “It was a terrible place to be a 19-year-old.”

'While there, he also witnessed things he would later realize were totally inappropriate. “None of us knew at the time about the allegations of sexual impropriety by Bill Gothard that would be forthcoming, but we saw the girls who he picked out as his favorites,” he said. “We all knew he had a type, and we knew that he gave extra attention to those girls — promising them special roles in his various programs and outreaches.”

'After being at the centers for two years, he started feeling jaded about ATI. “During my time there, I saw up close that it was a system of extreme authoritarianism, and I began to question the fundamentalist approach to Christianity that was pervasive everywhere I went,” he said. “I started to feel the cognitive dissonance between what we were taught and what Jesus had said.”

Etc.! 

https://www.intouchweekly.com/posts/duggars-religion-151762/

Thanks, @Churchhoney -- this is really interesting.

I thought this was an interesting paragraph and might provide some insight about why Jana is still at home:

IBLP’s focus on following authority was used to scare and control her.
In IBLP’s teachings, the “umbrella of authority” or “umbrella of protection” states that if you obey an authority figure, you’ll be blessed and protected from danger. The hierarchy usually starts with the father being on top, the mother below him and the children beneath her. If one was to step out away from an authority figure’s presence (their “umbrella”), one would lose that protection and have potentially catastrophic things happen to them, at least according to IBLP’s teachings. “That was the whole reason I stayed in that house until I was 29,” she said. “I was so ingrained with that doctrine, I just knew I was going to be murdered like Chandra Levy if I stepped out on my own.”

 

[Churchhoney]

3 minutes ago, cmr2014 said:

Thanks, @Churchhoney -- this is really interesting.

I thought this was an interesting paragraph and might provide some insight about why Jana is still at home:

IBLP’s focus on following authority was used to scare and control her.
In IBLP’s teachings, the “umbrella of authority” or “umbrella of protection” states that if you obey an authority figure, you’ll be blessed and protected from danger. The hierarchy usually starts with the father being on top, the mother below him and the children beneath her. If one was to step out away from an authority figure’s presence (their “umbrella”), one would lose that protection and have potentially catastrophic things happen to them, at least according to IBLP’s teachings. “That was the whole reason I stayed in that house until I was 29,” she said. “I was so ingrained with that doctrine, I just knew I was going to be murdered like Chandra Levy if I stepped out on my own.”

 

No kidding. Wow, Sure doesn't encourage even the smallest degree of independence, does it?! Yeesh. 

[Nysha]

2 hours ago, Tuxcat said:

To be fair, I personally was questioning Derrick's motivations in continually pecking away at the Duggars. Though his target has been Jim Bob, his pecking still affects the rest of  the family web - Jill's family - children - because of their entanglement. Of course if JB is found guilty of a crime, I would never suggest he should be let off because he has kids. 

I doubt Derick as given one tiny thought bubble about what will happen to his minor in-laws, nieces, or nephews in his personal vendetta to bring JB down. It's not that he wouldn't care, it's just that he's so hyper-focused on evil JB that he doesn't see all the ramifications.

However, I think would be better for all of the Duggars not to be so financially tied to JB that they can't imagine surviving without him. If JB goes down it's going to cause major hardship to most of his grandchildren, especially the Ms. But that's where the true 'sins of the father' lie.

My grandchildren have major hardships because my children's birth parents drank, took drugs and abused them. The Duggar children don't have the developmental and mental disabilities that my children have, though. They just don't have the adult skills necessary for independent living, but they can learn those. It will be hard for the Duggar children & grandchild for a while, but in the end all of the them would benefit from the break.

[Scarlett45]

34 minutes ago, Nysha said:

The Duggar children don't have the developmental and mental disabilities that my children have, though. They just don't have the adult skills necessary for independent living, but they can learn those. It will be hard for the Duggar children & grandchild for a while, but in the end all of the them would benefit from the break.

Very well said. I was going to speak on this, none of the now adult children are disabled or ill in such a manner that would prohibit them from being able to live independently, or earn a wage to get there one day. JB going down would not condemn his adult children, or minor children OR grandchildren to poverty for the rest of their lives.

But JB/Michelle did not want to raise independently thinking human beings, now given there are 19 of them, some of them are going to be more outside of the fold than others. I do think Josh's trial, and the parents reaction to it is going to trickle down in their relationships with their other adult kids (the ones that were peers with Josh and have witnessed his  bad criminal behavior from youth). I am not saying they will be estranged from their parents and never speak to them again, but huge events like this shift feelings in families. 

And again, given they had so many children, under the very best circumstances some would turn out more "in the fold" than others. JB is going to protect himself first, then Michelle. He will likely tell the older boys they need to start making it on their own (they can keep the cars/toys he has bought them, but they have to start making their businesses profitable). I do think he will support Jana, the M kids and any minors at home. But I see a change in the wind.

[madpsych78]

Little late to the game here, but if Boob had outright stated that "No, Josh did not molest his sisters" then THAT would be perjury, and relevant to the case at hand. The lying about the elders is not that relevant, and Boob's "I don't recall" is too wishy-washy to be considered true perjury. I think the judge handled it just fine and it was probably sufficient.

[Tuxcat]

7 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Their cult preaches and preaches and preaches and preaches and preaches that your offspring should never act independently of their fathers even into the far reaches of adulthood......

Thanks for your post. Very informative. I was under the impression that the IBLP was steeped in Christian patriarchy - but I thought that burden was shifted to the young sons in the family once they became of age. I thought they taught that the sons shouldn't be independent from the IBLP - ever - but they should be independent from the nuclear family.  From the same article, Micah stated “Young men in patriarchal cults such as IBLP are heaped with a tremendous weight of responsibility that was never ours to bear,” he said. “Instead of preparing me to be a collaborative partner with my future wife, the teachings of IBLP weighed me down with the false belief that I had to carry the weight of the world on my shoulders, alone.”

That is why I thought perhaps JB actually didn't accomplish the goal of the IBLP when it comes to his sons. The sons are supposed to be raised to be the next generation of "leaders" who make the money and make the decisions (while the girls do the women's work) and spread the teaching of the IBLP.  I don't think JB really accomplished this goal - which is I why I still keep wondering about his actual beliefs. Is he purposefully keeping the adult sons tied? Or is he inept - unable to produce strong next generation patriarchs. (obviously I don't agree with the IBLP - but looking through their lens to see if JB did what he was supposed to do).

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by Tuxcat

[Kbo]

19 minutes ago, Tuxcat said:

Thanks for your post. Very informative. I was under the impression that the IBLP was steeped in Christian patriarchy - but I thought that burden was shifted to the young sons in the family once they became of age. I thought they taught that the sons shouldn't be independent from the IBLP - ever - but they should be independent from the nuclear family.  From the same article, Micah stated “Young men in patriarchal cults such as IBLP are heaped with a tremendous weight of responsibility that was never ours to bear,” he said. “Instead of preparing me to be a collaborative partner with my future wife, the teachings of IBLP weighed me down with the false belief that I had to carry the weight of the world on my shoulders, alone.”

That is why I thought perhaps JB actually didn't accomplish the goal of the IBLP when it comes to his sons. The sons are supposed to be raised to be the next generation of "leaders" who make the money and make the decisions (while the girls do the women's work) and spread the teaching of the IBLP.  I don't think JB really accomplished this goal - which is I why I still keep wondering about his actual beliefs. Is he purposefully keeping the adult sons tied? Or is he inept - unable to produce strong next generation patriarchs. (obviously I don't agree with the IBLP - but looking through their lens to see if JB did what he was supposed to do).

 

Jim Bob doesn’t want to risk being outdone by his sons 🙄

[Churchhoney]

2 hours ago, Tuxcat said:

Thanks for your post. Very informative. I was under the impression that the IBLP was steeped in Christian patriarchy - but I thought that burden was shifted to the young sons in the family once they became of age. I thought they taught that the sons shouldn't be independent from the IBLP - ever - but they should be independent from the nuclear family.  From the same article, Micah stated “Young men in patriarchal cults such as IBLP are heaped with a tremendous weight of responsibility that was never ours to bear,” he said. “Instead of preparing me to be a collaborative partner with my future wife, the teachings of IBLP weighed me down with the false belief that I had to carry the weight of the world on my shoulders, alone.”

That is why I thought perhaps JB actually didn't accomplish the goal of the IBLP when

it comes to his sons. The sons are supposed to be raised to be the next generation of "leaders" who make the money and make the decisions (while the girls do the women's work) and spread the teaching of the IBLP.  I don't think JB really accomplished this goal - which is I why I still keep wondering about his actual beliefs. Is he purposefully keeping the adult sons tied? Or is he inept - unable to produce strong next generation patriarchs. (obviously I don't agree with the IBLP - but looking through their lens to see if JB did what he was supposed to do).

 

That's why I say JB's a control freak. He took everything in the Gothard playbook about the patriarch being the head of everything, and he took it to the limit, clearly figuring out ways to keep all the boys on the string forever. 

However, I think there's a ton of evidence that Gothard himself always spoke out of both sides of his mouth on the "raise young men to be leaders" point. .... Because Gothard -- and the rest of them -- deliberately took JB and M as the ideal image for the cult. So no matter what they might have been saying out of one side of their mouths about young men being raised to be leaders, they were putting a family where that absolutely didn't happen at all -- and was never intended to happen -- up in front of people as the ideal family. 

And Gothard himself never said anything about young men being "independent:" leaders. Anybody who wanted people with independent leadership capacity wouldn't declare that nobody should go to college or get any education except from their mother at the dining room table, and that they should all "learn" entirely by spouting the formulations that Gothard and his friends wrote down in the wisdom books. Rote learning was the whole program. So they were supposed to be robot leaders -- looking good and being forceful about pushing the stuff the cult said. But what they were supposed to be pushing was the stuff that Gothard and the old farts had already announced were the right things. 

The definition of "leader" had nothing about independence in it. 

Same thing for the idea about the young man going out to be a headship and supporting his wife. Gothard said that. But he also specified again and again that nobody in the cult was supposed to work for anybody who wasn't in the cult, and, ideally, they should all work only for people in their own nuclear families. In other words, just what Jim Bob's got -- If your Gothardite father starts a business, you're supposed to work in it because that's the only way you can keep clear of working for somebody who's a danger to you because they're not followers of the right Jesus. And guess who's the boss in most such family businesses? The patriarch, not the sons. And I've never seen a Gothard preaching about the old guy stepping aside so the sons can take over. .... He may have assumed that the father would still groom the kids to be the executives some day, but if that's an assumption, I've never seen it be a stated one........Jim Bob certainly does seem to fail in helping his sons prepare to assume his position in the future -- but I've read tons of stuff about their cult and I've never read anything that actually tells the current patriarch that that's part of his job. 

I;d guess that that's mainly because Gothard's whole program is entirely self-serving. And he certainly never wanted to step aside from his own leadership in favor of somebody younger. 

To me it seem to me that Gothard himself definitely failed to create something that could give rise to actual young leaders. He's the one who insisted on young men working only in the family business and being educated only minimally and entirely as rote learners. Questioning and innovating are utterly discouraged by his whole system. 

To me, that says that his system doesn't give rise to real leadership. It can't because it's completely based on restrictions, and not any freedom or any actual knowledge -- just parroting the "wisdom" of Gothard and his old buddies. 

 He's the one who says that people in their 20s can't make any personal decisions or pursue education or have any friends outside the family. That's not a recipe for leaders. When Gothard says "leaders," with reference to the young, seems pretty clear to me that all he means is "People who'll push my program on others." He certainly doesn't mean "people who'll come up with new good ideas." He doesn't believe in new ideas. 

And while Gothard talked about creating the world's leaders, the way he sold his program to parents was preaching control control control. I will teach you to control your kids so they'll never even think of doing anything outside of your rules. He preached on and on about how neither kids or young people or women should be alone with friend groups because they might listen to somebody who isn't their parent. That's not what anybody would say who was actually trying to produce leaders in the sense you mean, it seems to me. He means "leader" in the very limited sense of somebody who looks neat, can march, and loudly spout the predetermined party line. That's no leader. 

Jim Bob's following the program. And he's proving that the program doesn't create leaders. But I think that's at least as much because the Gothard program has nothing to do with leadership as it does with Jim Bob's own behavior! 

It's more like Scientology methods applied to conservative Christians And Scientology doesn't produce leaders either. It just produces brainwashed nuts. Ans Scientology too has always pretended that its goal is to produce leaders who'll straighten out the whole world. But when you look at what it really does and intends, the only goal its methods can achieve is making people into robots and parrots.  

Edited December 18, 2021 by Churchhoney

[cmr2014]

3 hours ago, Tuxcat said:

Thanks for your post. Very informative. I was under the impression that the IBLP was steeped in Christian patriarchy - but I thought that burden was shifted to the young sons in the family once they became of age. I thought they taught that the sons shouldn't be independent from the IBLP - ever - but they should be independent from the nuclear family.  From the same article, Micah stated “Young men in patriarchal cults such as IBLP are heaped with a tremendous weight of responsibility that was never ours to bear,” he said. “Instead of preparing me to be a collaborative partner with my future wife, the teachings of IBLP weighed me down with the false belief that I had to carry the weight of the world on my shoulders, alone.”

That is why I thought perhaps JB actually didn't accomplish the goal of the IBLP when it comes to his sons. The sons are supposed to be raised to be the next generation of "leaders" who make the money and make the decisions (while the girls do the women's work) and spread the teaching of the IBLP.  I don't think JB really accomplished this goal - which is I why I still keep wondering about his actual beliefs. Is he purposefully keeping the adult sons tied? Or is he inept - unable to produce strong next generation patriarchs. (obviously I don't agree with the IBLP - but looking through their lens to see if JB did what he was supposed to do).

 

There is a concept out there called "Biblical Economics." I think that JB stumbled across this and it fits perfectly with his world-view and his controlling nature. It wouldn't surprise me if it was Gothard who first told him about it. I read about it a while back, but when I Googled it tonight I couldn't find a good synopsis to link to -- I'll keep looking.

Essentially it all dovetails nicely with Gothardism. The headship of the family is responsible for the economic well being of the family. He should own a business (or several, but never work for anyone else), and all of his adult sons should work for him (daughters, of course, don't work). All of the money generated by this business (or businesses) goes to the headship who provides for his family.

This is -- IMO -- exactly what JB is doing. All of these businesses -- the television show, the speaking engagements, the car lot, the towing business, the house flipping, the airplanes, etc. -- generate income for "Duggar Enterprises." JB buys things like houses, cars, computers, etc. that he doles out to his sons as he sees fit. All of this belongs to "the family," and not to any individual child. 

I think that JB has unclenched enough over the years that some of the adult sons "own" property in their own name, but I think that's only because JB has enough control that they won't sell any of this property without his approval.

I don't think that any of them have bank accounts of their own, or own even small portable property in their own names. Most of the sons -- especially the ones who are married and have families -- would have a very difficult time if they decided to strike out on their own. On top of that, JB provides enough carrots (in the form of houses, cars, computers, guns, vacations, etc.) that most of the sons are living pretty well.

I think that the pressure that Micah talked about is more simply being the "headship" and shouldering all of the responsibilities for the family. As he states, his relationship wasn't a "partnership" at all. He was 100% responsible for the well being of his family. For families without the resources of the Duggars, that's probably pretty daunting even before there are a dozen "blessings" to support.

[merylinkid]

Financial control IS abuse.   that you have no money of your own, cannot even own a car or a laptop on your own is very much domestic violence.   Because no means of escape (isolated, no money) is one way to make sure your victim(s) never leave.

[MMEButterfly]

11 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

That's why I say JB's a control freak. He took everything in the Gothard playbook about the patriarch being the head of everything, and he took it to the limit, clearly figuring out ways to keep all the boys on the string forever. 

However, I think there's a ton of evidence that Gothard himself always spoke out of both sides of his mouth on the "raise young men to be leaders" point. .... Because Gothard -- and the rest of them -- deliberately took JB and M as the ideal image for the cult. So no matter what they might have been saying out of one side of their mouths about young men being raised to be leaders, they were putting a family where that absolutely didn't happen at all -- and was never intended to happen -- up in front of people as the ideal family. 

And Gothard himself never said anything about young men being "independent:" leaders. Anybody who wanted people with independent leadership capacity wouldn't declare that nobody should go to college or get any education except from their mother at the dining room table, and that they should all "learn" entirely by spouting the formulations that Gothard and his friends wrote down in the wisdom books. Rote learning was the whole program. So they were supposed to be robot leaders -- looking good and being forceful about pushing the stuff the cult said. But what they were supposed to be pushing was the stuff that Gothard and the old farts had already announced were the right things. 

The definition of "leader" had nothing about independence in it. 

Same thing for the idea about the young man going out to be a headship and supporting his wife. Gothard said that. But he also specified again and again that nobody in the cult was supposed to work for anybody who wasn't in the cult, and, ideally, they should all work only for people in their own nuclear families. In other words, just what Jim Bob's got -- If your Gothardite father starts a business, you're supposed to work in it because that's the only way you can keep clear of working for somebody who's a danger to you because they're not followers of the right Jesus. And guess who's the boss in most such family businesses? The patriarch, not the sons. And I've never seen a Gothard preaching about the old guy stepping aside so the sons can take over. .... He may have assumed that the father would still groom the kids to be the executives some day, but if that's an assumption, I've never seen it be a stated one........Jim Bob certainly does seem to fail in helping his sons prepare to assume his position in the future -- but I've read tons of stuff about their cult and I've never read anything that actually tells the current patriarch that that's part of his job. 

I;d guess that that's mainly because Gothard's whole program is entirely self-serving. And he certainly never wanted to step aside from his own leadership in favor of somebody younger. 

To me it seem to me that Gothard himself definitely failed to create something that could give rise to actual young leaders. He's the one who insisted on young men working only in the family business and being educated only minimally and entirely as rote learners. Questioning and innovating are utterly discouraged by his whole system. 

To me, that says that his system doesn't give rise to real leadership. It can't because it's completely based on restrictions, and not any freedom or any actual knowledge -- just parroting the "wisdom" of Gothard and his old buddies. 

 He's the one who says that people in their 20s can't make any personal decisions or pursue education or have any friends outside the family. That's not a recipe for leaders. When Gothard says "leaders," with reference to the young, seems pretty clear to me that all he means is "People who'll push my program on others." He certainly doesn't mean "people who'll come up with new good ideas." He doesn't believe in new ideas. 

And while Gothard talked about creating the world's leaders, the way he sold his program to parents was preaching control control control. I will teach you to control your kids so they'll never even think of doing anything outside of your rules. He preached on and on about how neither kids or young people or women should be alone with friend groups because they might listen to somebody who isn't their parent. That's not what anybody would say who was actually trying to produce leaders in the sense you mean, it seems to me. He means "leader" in the very limited sense of somebody who looks neat, can march, and loudly spout the predetermined party line. That's no leader. 

Jim Bob's following the program. And he's proving that the program doesn't create leaders. But I think that's at least as much because the Gothard program has nothing to do with leadership as it does with Jim Bob's own behavior! 

It's more like Scientology methods applied to conservative Christians And Scientology doesn't produce leaders either. It just produces brainwashed nuts. Ans Scientology too has always pretended that its goal is to produce leaders who'll straighten out the whole world. But when you look at what it really does and intends, the only goal its methods can achieve is making people into robots and parrots.  

Thank you. It clarifies a lot for me. The idea that the only learning that should happen must be taught by the mother (or her feminine appointed substitute) still seems inconsistent. Historically, only men would be school masters at the secondary level. You would think that would happen with Gothardism as well. 

Edited December 18, 2021 by MMEButterfly

[Churchhoney]

4 minutes ago, MMEButterfly said:

Thank you. It clarifies a lot for me. The idea that the only learning that should happen must be taught by the mother (or her feminine appointed substitute) still seems inconsistent. Historically, only men would be school masters at the secondary level. You would think that would happen with Gothardism as well. 

Yeah, that does seem a little off, doesn't it? ....

I do think he needed some responsible-seeming role for the women -- to some degree they had to go along with their husbands for the initial buy-in to his programs.......They're said to hold up the second umbrella of protection -- the umbrella that's right under the father's umbrella. He also grants children no agency or goodness or anything positive, so you wouldn't want to stick the almighty and very important fathers and husbands with the task of supervising them all day.!

Of course the "schooling" Gothardism provides is mainly just getting the kids to read and listen to their parents well enough to rote-memorize all the stuff that he, Gothard, wrote down.....and memorizing bible verses with zero attempt to understand them.

So in a way his vision of education is pretty minimal definition of education-- and, by extension, it's a bit demeaning toward the people who carry it out, too.......It's not that the mothers are viewed as knowledgeable. Just that they have some power in the family to make the kids sit still and memorize the "wisdom" pronouncements of the man, Gothard.

That's the way I'd account for it, anyway.  Women are clearly second-class people in his scheme. But they're still above children and young people -- because they're allowed to have power over them. 

[merylinkid]

Moms do the schooling because they are home all day with the kids.   Dad is out working at his business to make money to support the family.   Dad can't take time from earning to support the family to actually "educate" the kids.   But Mom since her job is in the home, is in charge of the One Table Schoolhouse.

[cmr2014]

56 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Yeah, that does seem a little off, doesn't it? ....

I do think he needed some responsible-seeming role for the women -- to some degree they had to go along with their husbands for the initial buy-in to his programs.......They're said to hold up the second umbrella of protection -- the umbrella that's right under the father's umbrella. He also grants children no agency or goodness or anything positive, so you wouldn't want to stick the almighty and very important fathers and husbands with the task of supervising them all day.!

Of course the "schooling" Gothardism provides is mainly just getting the kids to read and listen to their parents well enough to rote-memorize all the stuff that he, Gothard, wrote down.....and memorizing bible verses with zero attempt to understand them.

So in a way his vision of education is pretty minimal definition of education-- and, by extension, it's a bit demeaning toward the people who carry it out, too.......It's not that the mothers are viewed as knowledgeable. Just that they have some power in the family to make the kids sit still and memorize the "wisdom" pronouncements of the man, Gothard.

That's the way I'd account for it, anyway.  Women are clearly second-class people in his scheme. But they're still above children and young people -- because they're allowed to have power over them. 

It's interesting, too, that marriage elevates children -- who are evil and sinful and too immature to handle anything on their own -- into adults with their own direct line to God and umbrellaship. 

[Cinnabon]

4 hours ago, merylinkid said:

Financial control IS abuse.   that you have no money of your own, cannot even own a car or a laptop on your own is very much domestic violence.   Because no means of escape (isolated, no money) is one way to make sure your victim(s) never leave.

Reproductive abuse is also a huge issue. Anything to keep women (especially very young women without much sex Ed) trapped and bound to men. 
 

Reproductive abuse is when a person tries to control your reproductive choices in order to control your life. Reproductive abuse is also often called “reproductive coercion.” Coercion is when a person tries to persuade someone to do something by using force or threats.

https://www.womenslaw.org/about-abuse/forms-abuse/reproductive-abuse-and-coercion

1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

Yeah, that does seem a little off, doesn't it? ....

I do think he needed some responsible-seeming role for the women -- to some degree they had to go along with their husbands for the initial buy-in to his programs.......They're said to hold up the second umbrella of protection -- the umbrella that's right under the father's umbrella. He also grants children no agency or goodness or anything positive, so you wouldn't want to stick the almighty and very important fathers and husbands with the task of supervising them all day.!

Of course the "schooling" Gothardism provides is mainly just getting the kids to read and listen to their parents well enough to rote-memorize all the stuff that he, Gothard, wrote down.....and memorizing bible verses with zero attempt to understand them.

So in a way his vision of education is pretty minimal definition of education-- and, by extension, it's a bit demeaning toward the people who carry it out, too.......It's not that the mothers are viewed as knowledgeable. Just that they have some power in the family to make the kids sit still and memorize the "wisdom" pronouncements of the man, Gothard.

That's the way I'd account for it, anyway.  Women are clearly second-class people in his scheme. But they're still above children and young people -- because they're allowed to have power over them. 

So when Jessa married Bin, Bin’s dad is now supposed to be her “umbrella” instead of JB?