S03.E13: Canaries

[Delphi]

I liked the Oliver/Thea reveal and particularly liked Thea's reaction. Roy is growing on me too. Also liked seeing Maseo in the flashback. Cracked up at Laurel fighting at the courthouse steps but that didn't bother me.

Roy is growing on me too! I've really liked him this season whereas I hated him last year. Maybe it's the haircut.

Off topic, are you the same LisaM from the old BoP message board, just curious.

[catrox14]

I've always liked Roy even when I didn't like what he was doing Same with Oliver and Felicity and Sara. 

 

I think Roy has a confidence now that he didn't before but I do agree the hairstyle does wonders for making him LOOK more mature so maybe it's helping inform Colton's performance? What I mean is when a good actor looks at himself with a different hairstyle to reflect a change in the character that comes through organically. 

Edited February 12, 2015 by catrox14

[marketdoctor]

 

This was Laurel’s subconscious speaking.  That said, Laurel’s subconscious did sound a lot like some people on Twitter after Sara died.  #coincidence

 

Or #awareness sneaking out of the writers.  Your subconsious sometimes speaks truths you don't want to hear.  I always thought a fundamental rule of storytelling is that you're not supposed to root for the antagonist, but HallucinationSara was making some sound points.  I'd have rather had Feclity's speech be about how Laurel might not be good enough NOW, but she can keep getting better, and Team Arrow would help, because the city needs every good person.

 

Part of the problem is CL is still REALLY GOOD as the Black Canary, even when her material is crap.  The only way to fix that is to open a wormhole or a Lazurus Pit or cast a Raise Dead Fully spell or have her be Black Canary in the movies.  That's no one's fault; I think the show was already adjusting to EBR being so much better than expected as Felicity that they could only adjust so much canon at once.  The odd thing was I *liked* Laurel in this episode more than usual; I'm glad she had some growth, but I'd like them to give it a little more plausible of a run-up.  They're trying, and they can get there...but just try a little harder, please.

 

Also, I liked that people now know things, and the way Thea handled the reveal, and DJ Douche is Dead for now (though possibly just merely dead, and not yet most sincerely dead.)

[Jediknight]

If it makes you feel any better, Canaries only trended for about 40 minutes during the East Coast airing and not at all during the West Coast airing. The past few episodes the show trended for the entire episode during the East Coast airing and at least part of the episode for the West Coast airing. Amanda Waller trended for a few minutes during the East Coast airing. So, there's a chance that people got bored and checked out during the second half hour.

The big thing last night was the newest NXT special.  That dominated Twitter for a few hours.  Hell it's what I was watching live instead of Arrow, and I don't regret it for a moment.

 

Love that Thea knows, and didn't hate Oliver for it.  Love that DJ Douche is dead, I also love that Slade should be returning.

[kismet]

Couple of quick thoughts before I have to go to sleep... worked all night but had to see the episode just in case it had more stolen moments of greatness in it...

1. This was the longest episode ever, I felt like it was never gonna end. Not even SA could save this time trap.

 

2. The Thea & Oliver scenes were the best, should have just you-tubed them!

Thinking we're gonna get the big ur a secret killer reveal in the Thea shoot out scene with Slade. Its gonna be used to help talk down Thea from shooting Slade.

 

3. I miss the old vertigo... this new one is missing the crazy

 

4. CL was awesome in it, miss her!

 

5. LL was obnoxious as usual. I felt her guilt, but again the vertigo hallucinations were all about her. Plz give LL some altruistic thoughts if u really want me to believe she has a big heart. She was so wrapped up in her own self, she didn't even tell Quentin to SIT DOWN. ur gonna drop that truth bomb on ur beloved Dad and ur not even gonna tell him to sit down. Maybe take him to a more private place. Seriously I know budget is tight without the buckles and such, but if u love him, think about his comfort. You had 11episodes and like 6+ months to plan your convo. If the writers aren't gonna give KC heartfelt material, than she needs to step up her game & make her character more emotionally appealing. Roy wasn't thrown good lines until the last few eps, but at least he made his character appealing.

 

6. Wasn't bothered that Diggle, stuck in foundry - why should he waste his neck when LL is so eager to prove herself? And Vertigo is so mhem of a criminal? Saving the big guns for the big game. Plus, he has a baby & a wedding coming up... keep him safe. That is why I think he needs to get some way to hide his identity. I'm not saying make him a masked hero, but at least keep him from being ID, even ur avg criminal does that... Did like Diggle's speech tho, thought it worked well.

 

7. Why is TA so pissed OQ is leaving again, wasn't the whole point of the episode to prove that TA stands alone & there is a new dynamic in town? Sometimes I don't know why the writers proceed to always make Angst the priority this season.

 

8. Felicity was ok, liked the argument scene. Kudos to Roy for standing up to Oliver! Kudos to Felicity for backing him up!. Poor Oliver though, could barely even make eye contact with them, esp Felicity after getting that intense stare. It's good he's going back to the island. He needs some island time to reset his gears. I don't even think a big hug from the world could bring him out the gloom that seems to rest on his shoulders.

 

9. That Laurel has the light speech but Sara dis not from Felicity was BULLSHIT!!!! I didn't mind her comment about using the mask to cover the demons, that was accurate. And I sorta get what she was trying to say that LL was choosing it & coming at it from a more pure angle than Sara. Where as Sara's was responding to her trauma & gradually trying to make her way back to the light by saving other. Its a hero's journey to rise above the adversity that life has given you, that is what Sara did. It was hurtful to Sara to say that she did not have a light inside of her. And I never envisioned Felicity betraying/hurting one friend to help another pseudo friend feel better. It was just TOO MUCH BS! The writers could have found many ways to do that without putting some new bus treads over Sara arrow filled, bloody frozen corpse. We get it there can only be one canary. The EPs are the one who gave us Sara in the 1st place, its not our fault we might still like her. Again, you wrote a good character stand by her, don't chuck her away just to make LL as BC work. I can think of numerous ways they could have had Felicity alleviate & elevate LL, and Im not even a professional writer.

 

10. Literally repeated SA wait they're where. Didn't think we'd get the starling arrival til next week.

 

11. I found a new definition for Vertigo - substance used to trigger verbal explosions from Arrow characters that contain condensed social media comments. Found to be most effective when hallucination contain characters betrayed by the writers & other characters for plot purposes.

 

Reviews probably like it because it was the most cookie cutter episode ever. Plot was so simplistic it was easy to follow. Thea & Quentin were finally read in. Literally all I should have done was read a recap, could have saved myself the 50 min. Its not fan service to write an episode that includes elements that the fans like amongst all  the other plots that are floating around episodes.

Edited February 12, 2015 by kismet

[Sakura12]

If Laurel has so much light inside her, why is she going to call herself Black Canary? Wouldn't White Canary, Light Canary or Angel Wings Canary, or (Sun Shines out of My Ass Canary) work better? 

 

Sara was the one with darkness, she should've been Black Canary and Laurel should be The Canary, removing the "Black" because she's so light and bright and good. 

[Delphi]

There actually is a White Canary in the comic books, she's assign assassin that tries to kill Dinah.

[quarks]

I think it's possible that some of the critics liked that Arrow did at least lampshade all of the fan/critical complaints about Laurel through Ghost Sara.

[LisaM]

 

Off topic, are you the same LisaM from the old BoP message board, just curious.

Yup

 

On topic, I forgot to mention that I am pleased that poor Quentin finally knows that Sara is dead. I was a bit surprised that he didn't react more forcefully against the idea of Laurel running around and putting herself in danger.

[patchwork]

The reveal felt unnatural, I kept expecting Oliver to jerk awake (all sweaty and shirtless, the lack of shirtless Oliver this season is a crime and needs to be remedied ASAP). I don't mind she was thankful for his sacrifices but it might have worked better if she excused herself cause "I need a drink" then she thanked him in their  later scene in the apartment. It just wasn't written as true to Thea's character, not even as true to this episode's Thea. They wrote Moira's reaction to Oliver revealing himself not Thea's. 

 

In this ep Thea was all over the map, which could easily be handwaved if Malcolm admitted he stopped drugging her but I think the show would rather forget that ever happened, or that she killed Sara because of it and that they're only in this mess with Ra because Malcolm set it up that way. 

 

I like the basic message of what Felicity said to Laurel 'stop trying to be Sara, be you' but I could have done without the light nonsense it's bad enough as a Olicity thing. Team Arrow standing up to Oliver and him handing over the reins to go on a camping trip with Thea is possibly setting up the Arrow's retirement at the end of the season.

[Delphi]

Knew it, glad to see you around LisaM!

In regards to Thea, I think that she was very much in awe that her big brother was a hero, he's saved her life countless times. It had to be very surreal for her.

With Malcolm I think the anger is justified. Especially considering Thea's always been prone to emotional whiplash. However she's not mad at Malcolm for his numerous atrocities. She's furious for a very valid reason, he let her believe that Ollie was a selfish jerk and only he loved her the way she wanted to be loved. He very much on purpose tried to force Thea to hate Oliver abd tried to drive them apart.

I think her agreeing to work with jim at the end was more of self preservation than trust or loyalty. Chase bested both her and Roy and she'd very much not like to die. For a girl who just saw her mother slaughtered it's a very plausible reaction.

I wouldn't be surprised if after she finds out that Malcolm brainwashed her she kills him, or at least tries to. Especially after he inevitably tries to hurt Ollie.

All things considered I think Thea is very much her mother's daughter. And her family is important to her. Oliver trumps Malcolm in that regard.

[Orion]

I think it's possible that some of the critics liked that Arrow did at least lampshade all of the fan/critical complaints about Laurel through Ghost Sara.

 

I can see that.

 

For me the lampshading made it worse. Don't acknowledge my legitimate criticisms of your show and then act like that makes them all better. If you want to include the audiences response to some very questionable writing then give me a reason to not hate those writing choices. Have all the Sara dialogue lead to Laurel addressing those points in a believable way.  In other words, don't point out the dirt on the floor unless you intend to get down there and clean it up.

 

With the way the writers of this episode left those scenes it did feel very much like they were mocking me, the viewer, "Ha ha we see all the problems you have with this arc and we are not changing anything!"

[looptab]

If I remember correctly. Diggle said something like "I already told you" before his spiel on Thea knowing Oliver had been lying. So I think he was still on the "Do Not Tell Thea" train.

[Carrie Ann]

I can see that.

 

For me the lampshading made it worse. Don't acknowledge my legitimate criticisms of your show and then act like that makes them all better. If you want to include the audiences response to some very questionable writing then give me a reason to not hate those writing choices. Have all the Sara dialogue lead to Laurel addressing those points in a believable way.  In other words, don't point out the dirt on the floor unless you intend to get down there and clean it up.

 

With the way the writers of this episode left those scenes it did feel very much like they were mocking me, the viewer, "Ha ha we see all the problems you have with this arc and we are not changing anything!"

 

Yes, exactly. You don't get to just list out all the problems you created in this failure of a hero's journey and then basically ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ and move on like you actually FIXED the problems. You didn't. She still became a superhero, fully competent, after a few weeks in the field and a few months of boxing lessons, with zero of the moral fiber you want to claim.

[KenyaJ]

Team Arrow standing up to Oliver and him handing over the reins to go on a camping trip with Thea is possibly setting up the Arrow's retirement at the end of the season.

 

I thought this was a crazy idea when people first started suggesting it a few months ago, but now it's seeming very plausible. TA is all "We got this. Don't tell us what to do," so why is Oliver even necessary to the team anymore? I kinda hope he tells them all "peace out" at the end of the season and goes on a solo backpacking trip somewhere.

[BumpSetSpike]

That was the quickest episode of Arrow ever --- boy did it fly by fast!  Could be because I ended up fast-forwarding about HALF of it!    That coupled with how quickly MG is "burning through storylines" makes this show go as quick as a flash!  (couldn't resisit).

[SonofaBiscuit]

 I kinda hope he tells them all "peace out" at the end of the season and goes on a solo backpacking trip somewhere.

 

Just not in the Andes, please.

[ottoDbusdriver]

What took me completely out of the episode was when Laurel, on the verge of being killed by Count Vertigo, suddenly finds Popeye-levels of strength and beats him down.   After having been injected with Vertigo for the second time. Seriously, Laurel has the reflexes of a sloth to not be able to dodge an injection needle flying through the air.

 

And why doesn't she have Sara's lance -- she's using some stupid club.  When they showed Laurel flailing about with that club while trying to fight imaginary Sara, all I could think of was that's how she normally fights, how can you tell she's doped up with Vertigo ?

Edited February 12, 2015 by ottoDbusdriver

[Chaos Theory]

I don't undersand why is it ALWAYS Laurel propping. Having we gotten to a point where the character can do no right? She can have a very perfect episode and everyone will still hate her? All I saw was her calling bullshit on Oliver and she was right but of course she is still wrong because Laurel is always wrong. Ok I give you the Felicity speech is a litty weird but other then that I have been liking Laurel this season.

I like the fact that she isn't perfect at being a hero yet. That she gets kicked around. She is still new at it.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Chaos Theory

[Menrva]

Rage. Pure rage. I watched it, well, parts of it because every time I saw Laurel I had to hit FF. I won't even let my kids watch it with me anymore.

 

Real heroes don't go around saying they want to be heroes; they are heroes because they do the right thing for the right reasons, even when it's hard and they don't do it for the attention or accolades. They aren't trying to make themselves feel better or drown out guilt. They don't do it for the adrenaline high. Many heroic people often are overlooked because what they do isn't flashy or exciting but they keep doing it because they want to make the world a better place.

 

Laurel isn't a hero. She craves attention; she's an adrenaline junkie. She feels good after beating people up. That is someone who has a massive inferiority complex and needs constant reassurance that she's awesome. Laurel needs a therapist and possibly medication, and I'm not saying that flippantly. And having everyone in the Arrowcave validate her bullshit insecurities and prop her up turns my stomach. That's not something I want my kids watching.

 

I was relieved that Thea knows Oliver's secret and it was actually nice seeing them interact honestly, perhaps for the first time in ages. And finally Laurel comes clean to her father. Otherwise, this was a waste of time. I hope that Caity Lotz had some catharsis beating up Laurel after what this show has done to her character. I won't lie, I was very jealous.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Menrva

[Ariah]

I recalled my favourite scene from the episode: the sibiling hug in the Foundry.

 

Watching it made me really sad for Oliver - he was expecting Thea to lash out, to shout at him, to run away. Frankly, since he'd been back, that's how his team acted: questioning him, arguing. He was expecting a scene and Amell sold it.

Then the shock of Thea's reaction, the awkwardness of the hug, the music. Oliver felt wanted for the first time for a week.

 

Too bad the rest of the episode didn't deliver.

[statsgirl]

I don't undersand why is it ALWAYS Laurel propping. Having we gotten to a point where the character can do no right? She can have a very perfect episode and everyone will still hate her?

Is this the perfect episode?

 

Thea, who at this point is miles better than Laurel at fighting, just got the crap kicked out of her.  Her reaction was to say "I need more training".

 

Laurel got the crap kicked out of her several times, was told how wonderful she was by Felicity, and that the city is good in her hands by Oliver who had opposed her at the start of the episode with good reason.  Nobody said anything about needing more training.  She's got the light that Sara didn't have.

 

It's this kind of bad writing to make Laurel look good that hurts the character.

[blixie]

 

I don't undersand why is it ALWAYS Laurel propping. Having we gotten to a point where the character can do no right? She can have a very perfect episode and everyone will still hate her?

 

I don't hate Laurel, in fact this whole season has made her infinitely more likable, but it was mostly achieved via propping, rather than genuine character development, everyone else that viewers actually liked had to spew crap that is not true like Sara not having a speshul light inside her like Laurel, or that Laurel can handle herself in a fight when what we've seen is that she mostly can't and routinely needs help.

 

So yeah I actually like the Laurel I saw hugging Felicity, but I no longer especially like or really recognize the Felicity she i shugging. Same for Diggle and Oliver, and Thea has been twisted too, though she has been twisted to enable the Malcolm Merlyn is maybe redeemable story. So you know it's great that they've finally been able to make Laurel more likable if not more rootable, and Roy has been improved greatly as well, but in the mean time every single other thing I've liked about the show is in the shitter.

[quarks]

Screentime:

 

« canaries »

Oliver: 25mins, 9secs
Laurel: 17mins, 29secs
Diggle: 7mins, 0secs
Thea: 13mins, 16secs
Felicity: 7mins, 40secs
Roy: 10mins, 30secs
Malcolm: 3mins, 28secs
Quentin: 3mins, 39secs

 

« season totals (so far) »

Oliver: 4hours, 30mins, 49secs
Laurel: 1hour, 49mins, 36secs
Diggle: 1hour, 50mins, 54secs
Thea: 58mins, 36secs
Felicity: 2hours, 30mins, 33secs
Roy: 1hour, 57mins, 11secs
Malcolm: 42mins, 10secs
Quentin: 28mins, 16secs

 

Now that her arc has ended, Laurel has almost caught up to Diggle. They are both behind Oliver, Felicity and Roy.

 

These totals don't include Felicity, Diggle and Oliver over on Flash, which catches Diggle up to Roy and bumps Felicity and Oliver well above the rest of the cast.

 

(Source: http://forgingfire.tumblr.com/post/110792485414/canaries-oliver-25mins-9secs-laurel-17mins )

[Delphi]

If laurel surpasses Felicity or Dig, I will break my television. I don't even hate Laurel, but she is not why I'm watching.

[ban1o]

If laurel surpasses Felicity or Dig, I will break my television. I don't even hate Laurel, but she is not why I'm watching.

She probably will pass Dig by the next episode. Diggle probably won't be in the next episode that much. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

I tried, I really did. But I stopped my DVR while the Canaries were fighting and deleted the episode. I'll watch the Thea/Oliver clips on YouTube. I hear there's a nice Diggle moment as well.

[statsgirl]

I stopped watching before the end of the episode. I just couldn't take it, between the Waller torture and the Laurel propping and how much I really don't give a $#!% about Oliver/Thea/Malcolm.

 

I was so excited that

Slade

is coming back, but seeing just Oliver and Thea there on the island, I realized I don't care about the next episode at all. So much for MG's "love letter to the fans".

[poetgirl925]

Well, Canaries was definitely NOT an improvement. Gah. Opening scene: Sara = the voice of the audience. Also, I’m getting severe whiplash with these characters.

Thea: Malcolm’s a good guy who cares about people!

Roy: I totes agree because I forgot everything I know about this guy. Let’s go with that. You’re pretty, Thea.
Thea: Malcolm can’t be trusted.
Roy: Hmm? He can’t? Okay, let’s go with that - I'm totally distracted by all of your midriff baring tops anyway.

 

The best part of the episode was Thea and Oliver. I think we’ve seen a lot of mature growth when it comes to Thea, and her reaction to Oliver's secret was on target when it comes to showing that. Best of all, I really hope that it will show Oliver that lies are not the way to go and that he doesn’t have to do everything alone. Felicity and Diggle have proven this to him many times. Even though Felicity doesn’t agree with Oliver right now, and even though she’s told him that she’s not interested in romance, she hasn’t totally abandoned him. Diggle has a family, but he hasn’t abandoned him either. I’m not sure why we’re repeating this lesson yet again – it was thoroughly covered in the first two seasons IMO – but apparently we need to have a part of the season where Oliver’s head is up his ass every year. Now if someone would just freaking tell Thea that Malcolm drugged her and made her kill Sara. Then again, I suppose I should be grateful that the heinous lying to Lance is out in the open. Sorry, but I don’t feel even the tiniest bit of sympathy towards Laurel over that situation. None. I don't care how much she cries about it.

 

I don’t really understand this whole deal with Malcolm training Oliver. If Malcolm can beat Ra’s then why doesn’t he just fight him? I get that only the student can defeat the master, but it seems to me like the better story would have been for Oliver to have met Ra’s before, trained under him, and then have this come up where he has to fight him. I realize it’s a little Batman Begins, but why stop now? That was clearly their inspiration, straight down to Laurel, the poor man’s Rachel Dawes. (Considering Dawes was the worst thing about Batman Begins, I still laugh that Laurel was patterned after her.) Regardless, it would have been much better than this boring Hong Kong flashback story, which I still don’t understand.

 

Laurel’s hero’s journey was crammed into three episodes? LOL, these writers. What a joke. It should have spanned (at least) a season, and the Wildcat training has been severely disappointing. I mean, he’s supposed to be one of the best fighters and good enough to turn Laurel into a vigilante in a few months’ time, but he got his ass soundly beat down less than a minute into that lame street fight last episode. I guess I’m supposed to buy that he was good enough to train Laurel despite evidence to the contrary, but the problem is that without some comic knowledge here, that part really falls flat. Even with my knowledge of the comics and Dinah’s story and the awesomeness of comic Wildcat, it still falls flat. These writers just make too many assumptions. It’s been a WHOLE WEEK since Oliver’s return, but Laurel is now competent enough to hold her own? Who’s been training her again? Because Grant first acted like he hadn’t seen her in a while and then got his ass kicked a week ago – he’s either dead or laid up. But what am I saying – clearly she’s beyond training now. She’s so great that even as a former addict, she can just shake that vertigo drug right off and get back in the field. Who the hell needs Diggle when you have Buckle Canary? #saveDiggle #DavidRamsayneedsabettershow. WORST. ORIGIN. STORY. EVER. And I’ll say it again – they should have concentrated on Canary or ATOM this season. They don’t have time for both. But the writers wanted a spinoff and it’s clear Laurel’s version of Black Canary cannot carry a show, so that’s how we ended up with too many players on the board again this season.

 

While watching the team tell Oliver “Nope! You’re not the boss of us anymore!” was kind of funny, it still made me roll my eyes. First of all, they’re all acting like he was off on a vacation instead of recovering from almost being killed. Second, they didn’t really accomplish that much without him. I guess you could say they learned to discuss and vote as a team, and they sort of come up with a (kind of terrible) game plan to take out Brick, but that’s about it. (Seriously, that was a terrible plan – all those poor townsfolk should be dead. It felt like they were using the people of the Glades as cannon fodder.) I also feel like Brick would have beaten them if Oliver hadn’t returned. Honestly, I can’t remember exact events from that big fight – that’s how boring it was. Were they winning before Oliver came back? I remember a lot of guns no one used, that hokey Ted/Laurel scene, something with Brick and Merlyn, Oliver stopping Merlyn from killing Brick, and the van speech. It feels like Oliver still saved the day.

 

I've been thinking a lot about that review I read last week where the critic said that if they could forget how certain events started then they could probably get on board with the story. Unfortunately, that’s how I feel about a lot of things with this show. The Slade/Oliver storyline was building so well, and I was so excited to find out what turned them into enemies. And then it was just a run-of-the-mill fridging sceneario. Shado was fridged, then they were enemies. Worse, that whole ‘Slade loves Shado’ thing came out of nowhere, so Slade went from being a great character to a bit of a creeper who was spying on Shado and Oliver to being crazy pants. It ruined the story for me. Now we’ve got the same thing with this stupid Ra’s story. If I didn't know who Ra's was from comics, I would be totally confused about why they're all running scared because he is the least villainous villain they've had on the show. Moira was scarier than this dude. I also do not understand how Malcolm thought this would work. Sara’s death was another run-of-the-mill fridging to advance an unoriginal war between the hero and his adversary. And Thea was just a chess piece. So because of how it started, I’m not sure how much I even care anymore about this upcoming Ra’s and Oliver showdown. I was looking for something epic and I got standard variety comic tropes. There was nothing creative about it, just a bunch of stupid designed to create shocking TV moments. Who killed the Canary? OMG it was Thea! But no – wait! Ugh. Now I have to try and forget all this WTFery this season if I have any shot at enjoying future episodes. I understand that they have the show paced out from A to Z, but they need better story planning because they just skip over all kinds of things and have characters act in OOC ways to get from point to point, and it’s becoming tiresome.

 

That little pep talk Felicity gave Laurel was one of the biggest pieces of WTFery this show has ever written. You know, they demonized Laurel a bit back in season 2 in order to whitewash the image of Sara as the bratty sister who ran off with Oliver. They even broke the fourth wall by having Laurel give a very long and winding speech (full of cheesy ass water metaphors IIRC) begging Sara not to hate her – I legit felt like it was the writers begging the audience not to hate Laurel, but it was also total victim blaming. I may not like Laurel much, but she was completely in the right in that situation, and she was the only one who apologized. Even the flashbacks made Laurel look like a bitch. Now they’re demonizing Sara to show that Laurel is better. Sara had no light but Laurel does? No – no no no. You don’t get to do that Arrow writers. I watched season 2. Sara had demons, but she was doing her best to find herself again. Felicity knew and liked Sara and they were friends. I don’t believe Felicity would say that. Worse, Hallucination!Sara stood there and said she didn’t have to die – Laurel could’ve been her if she wanted to. I felt like it was large portions of the audience speaking to Laurel there. Ugh, ugh, ugh. Arrow – breaking the fourth wall since 2012. Seriously, stop it.

 

RIP DJ Douchecanoe. You won’t be missed. And why is Oliver uniquely qualified to help Amanda Waller again? I do not feel that I ever got a legit explanation for why she needs him so badly. I know I said I was tired of the island, but these Hong Kong flashbacks are killing me. Guess the island and Oliver’s return to Starling are up next – please let it be less boring than the last several episodes. :-(

[jay741982]

I thought this was a crazy idea when people first started suggesting it a few months ago, but now it's seeming very plausible. TA is all "We got this. Don't tell us what to do," so why is Oliver even necessary to the team anymore? I kinda hope he tells them all "peace out" at the end of the season and goes on a solo backpacking trip somewhere.

He should grab Felicity(providing MG doesn't stretch the Angst) and they go somewhere lol

[KirkB]

All right, I'm calm now.

 

To begin with, the episode opened with one of the tropes I hate most in media. Showing us an event (in this case, 'Sara' fighting Laurel) and then doing the X amount of time earlier thing. So putting aside spoilers and sites like this, what should be something of a surprise (CL showing up) is ruined at the outset. I know it's supposed to be about how we ended up there but I would rather have it happen than know in advance it's coming. I'm sure it's just me, but my annoyance with that really set the tone for the rest of the episode.

 

Laurel repeatedly trying to refer to herself as a hero was completely missing the point. You don't call yourself a hero! Oliver doesn't consider himself a hero, he just does what he feels he needs to. Sara damn sure didn't think of herself that way. Neither do Diggle or Felicity, even though they both are. Roy did at first but I think he's past that. I do think Oliver was right when he said Laurel was doing this in large part because of the adrenaline and because it helps her to forget about the pain for at least a little while, but she's not doing it for the right reasons, she's doing it for herself. I also agree with all of you who said while Oliver is right to voice his opinion he is not in any position to tell anyone else what to do. 

 

I actually liked the easy way Thea accepted Oliver being the Arrow. Assuming she's not addled from everything Malcolm has done, which she still may be, her gratitude for everything Oliver has done outweighs the anger she might feel otherwise. That said, I'm firmly convinced Malcolm must be drugging everybody. It's the only thing that makes any damn sense. Thea hates being lied to. Except she doesn't mind it. But it still bothers her. Even though it doesn't. Though it does. Oliver will protect Malcolm. Oliver wants nothing to do with Malcolm. Oliver wants to train with Malcolm. Roy hates him. Roy agrees with him. Roy hates him. Diggle says pointing Nyssa at Malcolm is fine, but pointing Malcolm at Brick is wrong. Oliver apologizes to the city and tells the people he'll never leave again. Oliver leaves again almost immediately.

 

I don't know if I was supposed to or not, but I laughed my ass off during one of the 'Sara' vs Laurel scenes, when 'Sara' was beating on her with the staff and I had wondered what Vertigo was using since he was unarmed the last time I saw him and it turned out to be one of Laurel's own tonfa. As for the stuff 'Sara' was saying to Laurel, the EP's may not be aware of what a vocal portion of the fanbase is saying but someone in the writers room clearly is. That could have been cut and pasted from here. Those fight scenes took me out of the experience though, because when Caity was around it looked like she was doing a lot of her own stunts while I get the sense that Kaity is only there when Laurel has been knocked down, otherwise it's the stuntwoman.

 

And finally, I thought for a second Laurel was going to chicken out when Quentin told her he knew it was her in the Canary suit. I was sure she was going to use it as a way to weasel out of the conversation yet again. I'm just glad Quentin finally knows. It's still a crime it's been months and he only NOW knows he needs to mourn his younger daughter again, for real and forever this time.

[foreverevolving]

ETA- highlighted the relevant parts from the posts, and why they connect.

 

This post:

I recalled my favourite scene from the episode: the sibiling hug in the Foundry.
 
Watching it made me really sad for Oliver - he was expecting Thea to lash out, to shout at him, to run away. Frankly, since he'd been back, that's how his team acted: questioning him, arguing. He was expecting a scene and Amell sold it.
Then the shock of Thea's reaction, the awkwardness of the hug, the music. Oliver felt wanted for the first time for a week.
 
Too bad the rest of the episode didn't deliver.

Reminded me of this post from a couple of days ago:
 

I think Oliver does know that what he feels for Felicity is different than what he'd called love before.  She has his trust.  They were friends and partners long before he realized he was in love but I think it if fair to say that he doesn't know how to express love or how to put faith in it. 
 
He was getting it from Felicity when neither of them put a label on it and he was thriving.  He was just soaking up the smiles, the jokes, the caring.  He was letting himself rely on others.  He listened to Felicity. 
 
Since the date that really wasn't, he's rejected even the small slice he was basking in during the normal day to day stuff.  He's stopped listening to others.  He's only relying on himself.  He's not just bad as showing love, but he won't let it reach him anymore and he sure as hell won't let himself partake of it anymore.  Felicity was allowed to hug him, but did it really feel like he was hugging her back?
 
He's so incredibly isolated, maybe as much as he ever was.  He didn't just reject a future possible relationship, but he cut off the current one he'd been letting himself have.  
 
And now I'm making myself rather sad. 
 
There had better be some profound payoffs coming our way.

Edited February 13, 2015 by foreverevolving

[lizonthefritz]

It's sad how little it takes for me to actually like a Laurel scene. And I did genuinely enjoy the the scene where she told Quentin about Sara, because she was given an easy out when he said he knew what she was going to tell him and she still bit the bullet and told him (FINALLY).

 

The problem being, of course, that my enjoyment threshold is so incredibly low because it's probably the first time all season where I've thought Laurel did the right thing. When you're trying to construct a hero arc, the audience shouldn't be dubious about the hero-to-be's actions at every turn. The hero should make the hard choices, choose the thing that will hurt them the most if it means that others will avoid suffering. And not once this season have I felt that Laurel did that. Hell, not even Laurel thought she did the right thing by not telling her father that his daughter had died, as her hallucination clearly showed. And she's even said from the beginning that the reason for withholding the information is that she can't lose anyone else. It was never for Quentin's own good, but for Laurel's own good. (Which makes the horrible no-good bad choices of all of Team Arrow throwing their lot in with Laurel and her lying schemes even worse.)

 

Another thing the hallucinations showed? Laurel had no clue who her sister really was and her blaming her vigilanteism on Sara has just been bullcrap from the start. It's not about Sara, it's about Laurel.

 

*sigh* So what else is new?

[paigow]

If Laurel has so much light inside her, why is she going to call herself Black Canary? Wouldn't White Canary, Light Canary or Angel Wings Canary, or (Sun Shines out of My Ass Canary) work better? 

 

Twilight Sparkle or Rainbow Dash could work.......

[Sakura12]

I think Laurel would rather be called Diamond Tiara Canary. 

[fantique]

Laurel has a light inside her?   So does my refrigerator.  Doesn't mean I want to watch it fight crime each week.  

Marry me. <3

 

I feel kinda mislead by SA.  He gave that Access Hollywood interview where he said that he hadn't worked with Katie as Black Canary yet (the one where he talked about her looking wonderful in her costume, and how that was half the battle).  I guess that he was maintaining that he was dead at that point, but then from the way he talked in that interview that came out today, it sounded like he and Laurel would be at odds for a while.  But he's just accepted her by the end of the episode?  OK. 

I think the episodes 10 through 14/15 run is where I never hold SA accountable because that's when TIIC suddenly figure out lame XYZ motivations because plot needs them and they just introduce completely BS elements that have no emotional ground from the previous episodes.

 

I missed this episode because I had a prior commitment, but it sounds like I didn't miss anything except heartburn.

 

More episode clarifications from MG...

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/

He DID NOT just #coincidence us. He couldn't have, I mean... that would be moronically suicidal, right? RIGHT!?

 

11. I found a new definition for Vertigo - substance used to trigger verbal explosions from Arrow characters that contain condensed social media comments. Found to be most effective when hallucination contain characters betrayed by the writers & other characters for plot purposes.

Ha! Thank you for that.

 

I don't undersand why is it ALWAYS Laurel propping. Having we gotten to a point where the character can do no right? She can have a very perfect episode and everyone will still hate her?

I think people are just responding to the disturbing pattern where Laurel is only likeable and relatable when everyone else acts like a pod person and saying things that not only make no sense for who they are but also completely contradicts the show's own canon. Acting like Laurel has this noble motive as a vigilante is BS. Diggle saying she's capable is BS. Felicity discarding Sara's bravery and heart as comparison to make Laurel feel better is complete and utter horseshit.

 

How I feel:

I have been absent for a while just because I wasn't sure I could take this. I waited until 313 was out so I could just speed through the Laurelpocalypse arc and it couldn't have been worse unless they straight up had TA be blown up and renamed the show Black Canary. Actually, at least then I would be able to just walk away unburdened. 

Unfortunately while I dislike Laurel a less now because she doesn't walk around ignoring the absurdly gigantic cognitive dissonance that is her becoming a vigilante anymore, all this mini arc has proved to me is that Laurel doesn't bring anything extra as part of Team Arrow and more importantly her inclusion disrupts the flow of characters I love and am emotionally invested in. The getting the Glades to help itself idea was something that sounded like a Roy idea that was given to Laurel so she could contribute. The sudden Diggle mentorship when he was her biggest detractor all the way until 309 is an absolute retcon. The entire reason behind Felicity quitting and getting back in was to justify the BC and ATOM arcs. They still had some leeway because they introduced an emotional element that made sense: she doesn't want to see her friends drop like flies, but it was so obvious it was about validating Ray and Laurel that it left a bitter taste. Like John Campea said, I felt disrespected as viewer just like I did this episode.

 

I only have one question for TPTB: What's the hurry? Why can't you give it time for us to adjust to Laurel as she gets used to the idea of working oustide the law, of seeing what it truly means to be a hero and getting a well earned introduction into hero status? It could have actually become a real situation where her lightness and the fact that she hasn't suffered like Oliver and Sara would be a well earned positive. Instead of a woe is me routine, we could have had a supposedly smart and good hearted woman realise that there could be more she can do for the city she loves. It could have included Det. Lance talking about how fruitful the police-Arrow alliance is and how an access to the law can be beneficial for both parties. Why, Arrow? Why are you in a hurry? Now all I have is a "hero" that's only there for an ego boost whom I genuinely don't believe to be a good person nor do I believe her to be selfless enough to make the sacrifice necessary to be a vigilante. She didn't give up anything to be BC. The one word that reflects the entire Laurel Lance character continues to be "Unearned".

Edited February 13, 2015 by fantique

[tv echo]

I'm just speculating... but maybe they rushed the new BC storyline because DC Comics is launching a whole new slate of new comics and ongoing comics starting in June (as discussed in the Green Arrow In Comics thread), including a new BC book.  I know the comics BC is vastly different from the tv BC, but it could be a marketing ploy of increasing brand recognition - like maybe non-comics viewers who like the tv BC will be drawn by curiosity to buy the BC comics?

Edited February 12, 2015 by tv echo

[kismet]

In regards to the hug between Felicity and Laurel.  I actually didn't mind it.  Laurel came in convulsing and perhaps dying and Felicity is going to be glad she didn't and offer comfort.  Except for that dumbass comment about the light, she basically told Laurel stop trying to be Sara and be yourself.  There was none of that big heart crap (oh, for what I would have traded any light reference for a plateful of big heart)

Which is why the light comment is so insulting. It really wasn't needed... We could have got the hug. We could have got F just saying be yourself. And boom prop duty completed. No need to throw the memory of Sara under the bus. I can't imagine CL ever wanting to come back & film a scene w/ the show again of that is how they're gonna treat her character. And good for CL if she sticks to staying away, as sad as it is for us.

[Hook75]

I recalled my favourite scene from the episode: the sibiling hug in the Foundry.

Watching it made me really sad for Oliver - he was expecting Thea to lash out, to shout at him, to run away. Frankly, since he'd been back, that's how his team acted: questioning him, arguing. He was expecting a scene and Amell sold it.

Then the shock of Thea's reaction, the awkwardness of the hug, the music. Oliver felt wanted for the first time for a week.

 

 

I agree 100%. 

[AES13]

The writers just keep screwing up, right and left.  They indicate they're aware of the problems but make no attempt to solve them.  It's like they want to give the fans what they've been asking for but do it so poorly that they won't be asked for anything else.  This episode reminded me of the Smallville episode where Lois gets a job at the Daily Planet.  No struggle, no cleverness demonstrated - she's just handed one.  It felt like the writers were saying "See, she's working for the Planet.  Happy now?" and the answer then and now is a resounding hell, no!

 

All these niggling plot threads (Thea being clued in, Quentin finding out the truth, Laurel being accepted as one of the team) were resolved but in pretty much the worst possible way.  Everything felt very anti-climatic to me.

 

I agree that the Oliver-Thea scene was sweet but was it earned?  I don't think so.  If Thea had expressed some disbelief, incredulity, if Oliver had explained a little bit about his torturous years away, I could buy Thea eventually coming around, but instantly? Oliver was willing to tell her everything except for the fact that the person he wants them to team up with basically roofied her and made her into a murderer which once again, leaves her without the ability to make the choices she should be making for herself.  

 

I felt Laurel and Quentin's scene was well acted (quelle surprise, right?) except that Laurel seemed to be doing the same gasping weeping cry she was doing while overdosing on Vertigo.  And, again, it's hard for me to feel sympathy for someone who seems so intent on putting herself in these situations.

 

Having to write Diggle and Felicity as completely out of character to justify their support of Laurel makes me resent Laurel, not Diggle or Felicity because never in a million years would I buy Felicity comparing Sara unfavourably to Laurel, or that Diggle would stand by while injured Laurel goes to rescue some hostages.

 

I'm sort of glad that the bloom was already off the rose for me with this show because instead of feeling betrayed, I laughed at all the ridiculous crap they pulled in this episode.  I wish I could watch it like the Realm Cast podcasters because they seem to watch solely for the plot, the action, and the heroes.  I love their podcasts and find them really funny but they don't attempt to analyse the writing at all and just accept everything at face value.  It must be a lot easier to enjoy something when you're not looking for any meaning in it and unfortunately, that's what Arrow seems to becoming: meaningless.

[slayer2]

That was so great! Truth all around! KC rocked it today (yesterday). Show is so much better without shipping, although I may be shipping some Laurel/Felicity friendsies. I believe their convo passed the Bechdel test, fuck yeah! Hope to see more of them in the future and Ollie is sequestered with Thea and Merlyn? Fuck yeah! And Team Arrow are on their own again? Fuck yeah! And Thea knows the truth? Fuck yeah! And Det Lance knows the truth? Fuck yeah! I love these isolation stories. Next week is going to be awesome.

[BkWurm1]

If I remember correctly. Diggle said something like "I already told you" before his spiel on Thea knowing Oliver had been lying. So I think he was still on the "Do Not Tell Thea" train.

 

I think they actually were retconing what he said before, lol. Actually, not lol, cause it's not funny. 

I don't undersand why is it ALWAYS Laurel propping. Having we gotten to a point where the character can do no right? She can have a very perfect episode and everyone will still hate her? All I saw was her calling bullshit on Oliver and she was right but of course she is still wrong because Laurel is always wrong. Ok I give you the Felicity speech is a litty weird but other then that I have been liking Laurel this season.

I like the fact that she isn't perfect at being a hero yet. That she gets kicked around. She is still new at it.

This idea that Laurel is somehow not being shown to be as competent as Roy or Oliver is not really what I'm seeing on the screen.  Sure, Laurel stumbles and she doesn't always immediately win her fights and yes, occasionally she need to be rescued but the thing is Oliver sometimes loses a fight.  Oliver sometimes loses the bad guy.  Roy stumbles.  They keep saying that they are making Laurel work for it, but really in the end they always let her win, they always show her being competent and also show her rescuing others.  She has terrible form and IMO frequently looks ridiculous but I am not sure that is on purpose.  The falling on the van, that was on purpose, making her take a few punches, that's on purpose, but they think that "knockout" punch on the courthouse steps looked cool instead of one of the stupid and more fake looking things I've ever seen.  There has been no "she has to find a different way" to account for her inexperience.  She just keeps doing the same thing until she wins. 

 

 

Different point- actually a tangent from a 3.10 when Felicity closed the door behind that truck that Dig and Roy were chasing on foot that they were positive they would have caught if only the door hadn't closed...well in this episode we saw very clearly that OLIVER can't stop a truck speeding off even when there isn't a door separating him from it.  I'm glad Felicity turned the lights off on in the foundry.  Roy and Dig needed to contemplate reality for a little while. 

[ottoDbusdriver]

I also can’t with Thea sleeping with this sleazy DJ in her living room. Is she seriously never worried about Oliver coming home? And AHAHA what a death for DJ Douchebag.

 

My money is on a surprise pregnancy -- because that's just what this show needs is Grandpa Malcolm Merlyn. </snark>

[Tangerine]

That was a complete mess and a total waste of an hour.

 

I won't go into how insulting this episode was for Caity Lotz, who had done nothing but give them a wonderful, sympathetic and strong character only to have her tarnished and completely thrown under the bus. But Diggle is now completely sidelined and relegated to sage advice giver while Laurel has three episodes of supposed stumbling around and is now accepted as a big damn hero? I feel like I'm on crazy pills.

 

The only moments I enjoyed were between Thea and Oliver. I just wish somebody would tell Thea already what the heck Malcolm did to her.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Tangerine

[FishyJoe]

Did I miss something? Did Laurel get a dose of mirakuru or something? She seems to heal as fast as the Wolverine. Her face gets beaten to a pulp and she gets a lethal dose of vertigo, then a few minutes later she doesn't have a scratch or bruise and she is fresh a daisy, ready to fight. 

[catrox14]

Did I miss something? Did Laurel get a dose of mirakuru or something? She seems to heal as fast as the Wolverine. Her face gets beaten to a pulp and she gets a lethal dose of vertigo, then a few minutes later she doesn't have a scratch or bruise and she is fresh a daisy, ready to fight. 

 

I was wondering about that too LOL

[statsgirl]

So ready to fight that Oliver leaves Diggle behind and takes Laurel.    I love the realism of the show.

 

 

The only moments I enjoyed were between Thea and Oliver. I just wish somebody would tell Thea already what the heck Malcolm did to her.

I've been reading posts saying how wonderful it is that Oliver has finally stopped lying to her and I want to shout "No, he hasn't.  He's just stopped lying to her about being the Arrow. He's still lying to her about what Malcolm did to her."

 

 

I believe their convo passed the Bechdel test, fuck yeah!

Technically, yes. But the meaning behind the Bechdel test is about women having respect for each other and when person A tarnishes the memory of her dead friend in order to prop person B, that doesn't count for me.  Like the voice synthesizer, it will always be showing just how low they're willing to take Felicity to make Laurel happen.  The absolute low point of the episode.

[Sakura12]

Cassidy probably told them that wounded make up look didn't match her lipstick and nails. 

Edited February 13, 2015 by Sakura12

[statsgirl]

The red wasn't dark enough?

[Delphi]

To be fair as well as Thea accepted Ollie being the Arrow. It might be hard and not the best time with the most dangerous man on earth showing up to kill you too say, "hey speedy, sorry, but you murdered our friend, but on accident so don't worry, it's cool."

I really hope, side their already retconning shit, they undo this Thea being a murderer shit.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Delphi