lizonthefritz

I totally agree on the breach of trust, especially because it's so very obvious that they put no effort at all into changing this scenario from the couple they first dreamed it up for - Oliver/Laurel. Because OF COURSE Samantha would beg Oliver not to tell Laurel - her friend! - that she had betrayed her, and OF COURSE Oliver would see this news as a very real threat to his current relationship since this was real life evidence of his unfaithfulness at a different time of their lives, and OF COURSE Oliver would do everything in his power to make sure that Laurel didn't get hurt by this news or break up with him because of it. (I don't think the unilateral decision-making that was the nail in Olicity's coffin would have even become a thing had KC remained as LI.) In order to make Felicity and Oliver fit the scenario, they were forced to twist and distort their characters (mainly Oliver's, but Felicity's OOC reaction to the news in the first timeline on The Flash also comes to mind), when they could just as well have come up with a completely different scenario. I just think they writers were so in love with the idea that they could hearken back to a plot point that had already spanned several seasons that they just couldn't even conceive of letting it go for the sake of the characters. And THAT'S why I can't trust them anymore.

I still don't see how Laurel's character traits translate into a season-long arc. Especially considering an arc has a starting point and an ending point, usually with a lesson learned along the way. Laurel dying from her own poor choices and rash action wouldn't be the end of an arc in my mind, it would just be chickens finally coming home to roost. Not to mention, I'm not sure the writers see her that way, they seem to be willfully blind to Laurel's mistakes, maybe because they just don't care enough about her to put in the effort to actually write her well.

I don't feel that the BM reaction has anything to do with a seasonal arc for Laurel. At most, it's her having her eyes opened as to what her relationship with Oliver really was (i.e. not the grand romance she - or at least KC - imagined), giving her a chance to close the book on that whole mess. But that's something that's been ongoing since season 1 and not really applicable to her current situation. I gotta agree with @dtissagirl, a few disparate events do not a seasonal arc make.

But none of these things that you mention are an arc for Laurel. They don't even affect her. It's actually as if they did her one final disservice by having one of her last actions on the show kickstart a bunch of storylines for other characters while leaving her with a big fat goose egg.

I agree. The fact that there was no new arc for her this season was a big reason why I was 80 % convinced she was in the grave before this latest batch of spoilers came out. I could only think of three reasons for why they were writing her this way: She was in the grave and that was the only arc they needed for her this season. They were planning to turn her evil, probably by killing off Quentin, and didn't want to tip their hand too early. They really REALLY didn't give a crap about her at all.

Going back to the discussion a few pages back about the network being the roadblock to the writers killing off/writing off Laurel, I feel that there could be some real merit to that. Just the fact that they've overhauled the character every season (except for this one, which could be a clue as to who's in the grave in and of itself) shows that the writers felt that she wasn't working. So the network probably insisted that they keep her, they spitball a number of ideas, pitch it to the CW, get the go-ahead, and start writing it. I feel like the writers' approach to Laurel at the start of every new season has had a decided "going back to school" feeling about it. You may not love school (read: the fact that the network is forcing you to write for Laurel), but you're recharged and raring to go, wanting to give it your all. But by mid-season, you're just tired of writing for a character that doesn't inspire you, leading to lackluster arcs, if any at all. I'm about 99% convinced that Laurel's in the grave (up from about 80% during the winter hiatus) and I'm hoping it means good things for the characters I actually care about if she's gone. I don't expect miracles, these are after all the writers who thought BMD was a good idea, but I at least hope my favorite characters will be given more to do now that they're not writing for the dead weight.

I think they definitely know who's dying and are writing towards it, but that they're still hedging their bets and are willing to change their plan if things aren't working out the way they've planned (i.e. the audience isn't reacting the way they expected). FWIW, my money is currently on Lance, but I think it's possible it could be someone introduced this season. Like, I'm expecting to enjoy Curtis/Mr. Terrific quite a bit and him dying would probably have an impact on me by the end of the season.

I don't really see that. I mean, Oliver said no, what was Felicity supposed to do? Force him? I think she tried to keep the peace in order to be able to stay on Team Arrow (if TA wasn't a factor, I think she would have gone away for a long time to lick her wounds before she was able to face Oliver again, making all the times he refused to allow her the space to move on moot). I agree, I didn't watch a season of Felicity pining over Oliver, I watched a season of Felicity doing everything to get over him and him not allowing her to. The only way for her to escape the torture of hearing him declare his love with one breath and reaffirming that they can't be together with the next would have been to leave Team Arrow. And I think that's a pretty assholeish thing to do to someone you love - take from them a mission that they're committed to just because you feel that a declaration of your feelings is more important than their emotional well-being. Of course, that's if I'm thinking of it from a real world perspective. On the show? I still kind of love that Oliver loves her so much that he can't help but tell her so at every turn. *shrug*

I'd say that for the most part he doesn't have to trust Ray because he's not working alongside him on a regular basis. In this isolated case, he'll trust Felicity's faith in the suit because the suit is actually the best weapon they have against the metahuman (arguably even better than the Arrow since his skin isn't laserproof). So teaching Ray is a by-product of the need for the suit, not the start of a mentorship. Laurel, on the other hand, he actively distrusts and downright resents for shouldering her way onto his team without his say-so. In some ways I get Felicity's defense of Laurel, but I think she's wrong. It won't be her life on the line if Laurel can't get it done in the field so she should let the decision of whether or not Laurel will tag along in a fight up to Oliver.

I don't really mean "trust them as a person", but "trust them as a vigilante". He knows enough about Laurel to know her skills are limited and her motives are shaky at best.

To me, this doesn't count as a strike against Oliver because the only reason he comes off as super controlling is because she's always horning in on HIS mission. Like, if she'd only go off and do her own thing, he wouldn't have to tell her to get some training because HE WOULDN'T BE THERE. So why does she keep tagging along where she's not wanted instead of doing her own thing? (Other than for plot reasons.) Honestly, as much as I don't care for more screentime for Laurel, pleeeease give her her own story, and her own supporting players so she can get the hell off of Team Arrow.

My take on the difference between Laurel and the other vigilantes: Oliver doesn't trust her. Doesn't trust her skills, doesn't trust her motives. And another difference between her and the others is that he's forced to go out and fight with her, not knowing if her inexperience is going to become a liability to him in said fight. All the other vigilantes Oliver comes across have their own motives, their own fights. But Laurel just sort of tags along on his missions for some ungodly reason. Shouldn't she be out there finding her own missions? Helping others because it's the right thing to do?

There was also Thea and Roy. And with all these examples of established relationships, I can't think of one I thought was written badly. But I know, the conventional wisdom is that happiness can't be allowed to stand and relationships can never last on a TV show. But oh how I wish someone would try to buck the system and have a relationship that is the bulwark that weathers every storm. Let other things provide the angst and let the romance be the one solid thing that the hero can rely on, the thing that means he/she always prevails in the end. Honestly, I don't think I've ever seen a show that has done this. As for MG's explanation, I agree. I don't think that's it at all. I think Oliver refuses to train Laurel or help her in any way because he wants her to give up the vigilante life. In a way, yes because he cares, but also because he doesn't think she fits. Not just into his team, but as a vigilante at all. He's all about control, superior skill, sacrifice. And Laurel is reckless, unskilled and selfish (in her motivation for becoming a vigilante). As for Ray, I think Oliver trains him a) because he needs him to accomplish this particular mission and that means getting him up to snuff, and b) yes, because he doesn't care, but also because while he doesn't know Ray enough to know if his (vigilante) heart is in the right place, he's willing to trust Felicity's judgment in this case.

To my way of thinking, Oliver and Felicity are already in a relationship, it just hasn't been officially moved into the "romantic relationship" category yet. They know each other better than most couples do after months and months of dating, simply because of the intense conditions they work and have gotten to know each other under. I honestly have no problem with either of them knowing that this is it for them, even without the trappings of a first date and moving in together and all that jazz. I don't need those frilly things, I've seen them countless times on other shows and I think what Oliver and Felicity have has moved beyond that. I think it might actually be refreshing to clear away all the question marks and watch a couple who know each other so well, yet don't really know at all how the other is in a relationship, slowly getting to know each other's relationship selves while at the same time being a very settled couple. Which isn't to say that I actually want this to happen, because I don't trust these writers to pull it off.

Last time I checked, a marriage was a relationship, so in what way would the viewers be robbed of "the entire relationship"? Since Arrow takes place (pretty much) in real time, a Felicity/Oliver wedding be a quick affair from their perspective as well, it's not like they're going to have an onscreen caption: "18 months later" and then them getting married. (At least I hope that's not what they're going to do!) To me, them getting married and them starting dating at the end of the season would mean the same thing: I'll miss the start of their relationship, the honeymoon period, only to be dropped back in when things start to go pear-shaped again. Which is not something I particularly want, but to me it doesn't matter if that period is spent as a dating couple or a married couple. I'm holding out a teeny tiny hope that if they actually have Oliver and Felicity marry at the end of the season, it will be a quickie wedding because they want to have it settled for good so they can concentrate on the more comic-y aspects of the show and stop wasting time on romantic storylines (for Oliver, at least). And the only reason for the accelerated timeline is that they want Felicity to be caught between her husband and her father as they try to kill each other next season. I know, it's probably a pipedream, but considering how bad they seem to be at writing a relationship trajectory when the purpose is to keep them apart (second half of season 2 and all of season 3), I'd be happier to give them a chance to write an established relationship, which is something we haven't actually seen on this show with the exception of peripheral relationships like Tommy/Laurel and Moira/Walter - neither of which I had any real problems with, BTW. Of course, my preference would be Oliver and Felicity back in a friendly place at the end of the season, but with Felicity wary of Oliver's tendency to give up waaaay too easily when the going gets tough. Then 3.5 comics filled with build-up of sexual tension, continued for the first few episodes of season 4 (I want light-hearted flirting on my TV screen, dammit!), with actual dating starting around November sweeps.