S01.E13: Welcome Back, Jim Gordon

[AimingforYoko]

Gordon suspects an inside job when a homicide witness being held for questioning ends up dead.

Wasn't this originally supposed to be the season finale?

 

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Pretty sure the original order was 13 episodes.

Then I read that Fox ordered more.

[HoodlumSheep]

Loved the episode!

Not quite sure what to think about Harvey and Fish.

Also...BUTCHhhhhhhH!!!!! Noooooo! I hope he's alive. I imagine he'll bite the dust eventually, but it's too soon for him to go! I love his Hufflepuff-ness. He's probably one of my favorite characters.

I loved when Victor waltzed in and the following chase (?) scene.

That's what happens when you ask the Penguin for favors, Jim!

I fear that Mama Cobblepot will not survive the show (I haven't read the comics, so I don't know what'll happen).

That Penguin Party montage sequence thing was kind of weird.

Poor baby Bruce! Way to crush his heart, Cat!

[MisterGlass]

Definitely treading back into dark and conflicted territory, and just about everyone made a questionable decision.

 

Much as Gordon wants to clean things up, Essen and Bullock are right to tell him that he needs to pick his battles.  If he has to ask Penguin's help, and he ought to know by now what that entails, then it isn't the time.  It was nice see that more of the officers were with Jim this time.

 

I can understand Harvey wanting to help Fish.  I'm sure they had a longstanding arrangement, and Harvey is loyal, to Jim, and to others.  I believe he'll try to help Butch too.  Harvey looked so sad for most of this episode.  He's right, he deals with the crisis of the moment, but there have been a lot of crises now.

 

Penguin's mother picking up Liza's scarf was creepy, kind of like Mrs. Cobblepot herself.  Ozzy, Ozzy - this is why you don't celebrate until it's really over.  Also, kind of creepy.

 

I don't envy Butch.

 

I liked seeing the return of Bruce and Alfred, though the break-up was sad. 

 

Bruce is definitely better at gift giving than Ed, though Ed didn't do as badly this time.  Poor Kris, though.  She was trying to set the record straight and he'll take it as encouragement.

 

Edited for grammar.

Edited January 27, 2015 by MisterGlass

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Harvey and Fish have sexual history, that's the vibe I'm getting.

Took me a moment to realize to cop begging Jim at the end, was Rat from SOA.

[Raachel2008]

Harvery and Fish having a past was heavily implied in the pilot, so I'm not surprised they kissed. What surprised me is that Jada was able to convey so much tenderness without being over the top one way or another, which has been her MO in the last 12 episodes, even when Fish was more 'subtle'. There was a 'we were lovers and look what life did to us' vibe in that scene that  I appreciate.

 

Donal Logue is such an underrated actor, and Bullock, that big bunch of grumpy bear kills me, really.

 

Oswald going all rock and roll. Ha! Mama Cobblepot is a blast, but thalk about some weird relationship between mother and son.

 

Bruce and his poor tweener broken heart.

 

Ivy is creepier than all the bad guys together.

 

No Barbara-bore. Thanks God for small mercies.

 

That speech at the end... I'm not sure if the problem was Ben McKenzie's acting or how ridiculous the whole scene was written/directed but I cringed the whole time. The music! The close ups on the others' faces! 

 

They better not kill Butch.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Raachel2008

[Shriekingeel]

Worst episode so far for me. Unlike many I haven't minded JPS's scenery-chewing performance before, because it arguably advanced the plot. But tonight the mugging and scenery-chewing from multiple sources (JPS, the unbearable Carol Kane, the Billy Corrigan-looking guy with the Robert Palmer backup dancers) crowded out the police corruption (zzzzz) and puppy-love Bruce storylines.

For the first time the show was campy. Joel Schumacher campy. I don't like it.

[Shanna]

Awwww, poor baby Bruce. I think Selena was feeling guilty and that's why she confessed (that is if she wasn't lying, in which case she got upset that their friendship was based in Bruce wanting something from her). Maybe a little of both. But still, aw.

I liked this one.

[benteen]

Really good episode despite the fact that Ben McKenzie acting gets shaky and over-the-top when he gets angry. 

 

I liked Jim going to Oswald and then realizing there's a price.  I agree he really needs to know how to pick his battles.

 

Glad Butch isn't dead but he probably wishes he was now.  That's what he gets for not shooting Zsazz (can't remember the spelling) as soon as he saw him down below.

 

The corrupt cop looked like a sleazy, ratty David Tennant.

 

Thought Fish would end up killing Oswald's mom.

 

"Delightful friends you keep, Master Bruce."

[thuganomics85]

I don't know; parts of it I liked, but I was bored during other times.  Also, this was the first time I really got annoyed by Jim's noble act, when he made a big showing of hauling in Delaware, even though Essen asked him to talk to her first, before he did anything.  It's getting to the point that I wonder why Essen doesn't just put her foot down when it comes to him.  Maybe they could found some way that wouldn't have ended with Flass outmaneuvering him, and having to resort to asking Oswald for help, because of that screw-up.  So, I really didn't find much sympathy for Jim when he realized the line he crossed, even I am intrigued over it.  I have to think that, despite what he said, Oswald will want something in return.

 

Damn, Butch!  Loyal to the extreme, that guy is.  Got to give him credit for that.  But, now he's in Victor Zsasz's hands, so I'm not seeing a pleasant time for him.  At least Fish escapes thanks to Bullock.  Looks like they really did have some history, judging from that kiss, and Bullock cares more for her then he claims.  So, it sounds like she's going to disappear for now, but be back.  I do wonder what the plan is.  I mean, I know she wants to after Oswald, but unless they really go against the grain, I know how it has to end eventually.  But, I wonder if bringing his mother back is a sign that Fish might start considering going after people close to him instead.

 

For the life of me, I can not figure out what they want me to think of Edward and Kringle.  The actor is playing him as creepy and I know full well he is bad news, but it strangely feels like I'm suppose to feel for him on some level, and it even felt like Kringle was suppose to be warming up to him.  That ain't happening, show.  Nygma is bad news.

 

Bruce and Alfred return, but I'm guessing Bruce almost wished he never came back, since Selina just stomped all over his little future Bat-heart.  Glad to see Ivy is still a nutter.

 

I'm all for no Barbara, but I'm starting to wonder if Montoya and Allen got swallowed by a black hole or something.  Allen in particular, seemed to just disappear of the face of the planet.

Edited January 27, 2015 by thuganomics85

[shapeshifter]

I was multi-tasking. What exactly was the price to be paid at the end? Something with the guy's wife & kid?

[opus]

I fear with Kringle we're headed for the hair down, glasses off scene.

[Philbert]

 

 

7 minutes ago

I was multi-tasking. What exactly was the price to be paid at the end? Something with the guy's wife & kid?

 

Gordon realizes to his horror that the guy is terrified that Gordon is going to have his wife and kids killed...because Penguin's man was interrogating them by holding the wife underwater in the tub. Gordon is figuring out exactly what the cost of 'cleaning up' Gotham is going to be-a whole lot of collateral damage.

[Malbec]

Bullock and Fish had more chemistry in one conversation than Barbara's had with anybody all season.

 

Gordon... I feel like he goes through the same basic "gets told to back off/barges in and does stuff while yelling about justice anyway" plot every episode.  Although, I did like his bizarro alliance with Cobblepot.  In terms of livening things up, it's a good start.

[netlyon2]

the Billy Corrigan-looking guy with the Robert Palmer backup dancers

Hah!  Best description ever.  I knew there was a reason for my attraction to that crazy killer.  (What?!  I'm a child of the '90s; please don't judge.)

 

For the life of me, I can not figure out what they want me to think of Edward and Kringle.  The actor is playing him as creepy and I know full well he is bad news, but it strangely feels like I'm suppose to feel for him on some level, and it even felt like Kringle was suppose to be warming up to him.  That ain't happening, show.  Nygma is bad news.

It's weird; they keep doing that close up reaction shot while she's giving a tiny smile.  I don't know if it's just the actress or if they're directing her to do it, but I keep getting the same feeling that she's developing a tiny bit of affection for him.  Either that, or she's totally going to be a villain in her own right.  I would definitely prefer that to "warming up the to charming creepiness of a creeping creep."

[Lantern7]

I'd rather not see Kringle anymore, since that usually leads to Eddie and his riddle boner, which is cringeworthy. Of course, Eddie isn't as bad as Barbara, and thank goodness we didn't see her tonight.

 

Better spinoff: Fish & Bullock or Fish & Oswald? Sure, we didn't get much Fish torture, but she got Penguin kissing her feet, getting him back to his default "snivel" setting. And I bet that if she did "go" with Harvey, Harvey would put in the effort . . . as opposed to any of the other girls he'd "go" with. Sorry for the mental image.

 

I hope Butch gets to live. He's pretty entertaining in his own right.

[paigow]

If your team outnumbers your opponent, what is the best plan of attack?

 

A: Divide your team to cover side / rear exits before walking in the front door

B: Keep team together, provide rotating cover fire while advancing

C. Stand still, uncovered, firing only when target is hidden

[Blakeston]

Thought Fish would end up killing Oswald's mom.

 

Me too. She was so happy, and then there was the "please drive my mother home" bit, which made me think we'd see her on the drive home (which would almost certainly be bad news for her.)

 

She just seems like someone who will be killed off, to give the Penguin an angsty backstory. But I'm hoping the powers that be are enjoying having Carol Kane on the show so much that they'll keep her around as long as they can.

[Actionmage]

I fear with Kringle we're headed for the hair down, glasses off scene.

 

I'm not so sure. When Ed looked hopeful and was starting to talk, she told him- essentially- to stop talking. I read Kris as trying to apologize for what happened because she couldn't stop Flass. I think she was grinning because it mostly worked, as Nygma stopped talking when she asked and kept the exchange not creepy.  I also liked that Edward was using nice imagery, from what I could hear, not creepy.

 

IA with everyone who is tired of Jim totally barreling into a wall of adamantium in order to clean up Gotham. I like that Essen and Harvey keep getting angry and frustrated having to explain this almost everyday to Mr. Crusader.  Excuse me, Detective Crusader. I can get behind wanting to clean things up, but to ignore the price your nominal allies pay for being nominal allies is willful ignorance. As seen with his insistence on going to Oswald for help. The look Jim had at the end had me yelling "What did you think would happen, Jim?!" As Victor Zsasz mentioned in his first meeting with Gordon, "alive" has a range of states.

 

As for Fish? I was glad we did not see her being tortured more. With Fish being a WOC and a villain, there has to be consequences to her criminal actions, yet this isn't 24:The Gotham Years. Fish telling "Bob" that only friends call her Fish, and they "weren't friends. Yet." was classic as it was followed up with one of the best laughs. I could not tell what all was in that one.  Her scenes with Butch were also great. She and Harvey leave me wanting to know more. Oswald and Fish, though, are so push-pull! They have a need to hurt the other now, know they should keep away because they lose objectivity around the other, yet must continue to punish the other. I love JPS and RLT in those scenes.

 

I was glad to see the Stately Manor gang and Ivy. I got why Alfred would be upset having a known thief live in the manor, but why was he unnecessarily mean to Ivy? Especially with the mange comment. I get he's supposed to be better than a street kid, but with talk like that, he really isn't. I also hope that Ivy nicked some things, like the umbrella and roll-y case, from Barbara's place. Not impressed with the Bruce/Selina scenes, mainly the writing. Bruce pushing too much is a given, but it isn't like Selina didn't know that after a week or so at the mansion.

 

"Mrs. K" and Oswald's main guard dancing was strange and delightful. She has dreams for her boy and they seem to be coming true. Yes, Mrs. K, that scarf does go with your lovely outfit.

 

Even after a few hours, I find I still have to think about this episode. How to be a hero in a world of indifferent E/evil. 

[Trini]

 

Either that, or she's totally going to be a villain in her own right.

Please, let it be villain. Her name is too weird.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

BUTCHhhhhhhH!!!!! Noooooo! I hope he's alive. I imagine he'll bite the dust eventually, but it's too soon for him to go! I love his Hufflepuff-ness. He's probably one of my favorite characters.

Ha, his Hufflepuffle-ness is a perfect description! He was so delighted when Fish woke up which I found adorable. Good henchmen are so hard to find because you need people who are smart and loyal and aren't afraid to get their hands dirty. Butch is pretty awesome so I fear that he is being tortured. Until I see otherwise, I am going to pretend that Billy Corgan is making him put on a dress and red lipstick and dance with the other Robert Palmer backup dancers.

 

Poor Bruce. He was so excited to see Selina and then she gave him a total smackdown on every front. Not only did she tell them that they aren't friends and she doesn't want to hang out with him at all, but she says she lied about seeing who killed his parents. But leave it to Alfred to give Bruce a good lesson on having a stiff upper lip and squashing his feelings!

Edited January 27, 2015 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Agent Dark]

Heh, Fish cut Penguin off just as he was about to say the name of his club.  I guess it's too soon for The Iceberg Lounge to make an appearance.

 

Gordon realizes to his horror that the guy is terrified that Gordon is going to have his wife and kids killed...because Penguin's man was interrogating them by holding the wife underwater in the tub. Gordon is figuring out exactly what the cost of 'cleaning up' Gotham is going to be-a whole lot of collateral damage.

I think that's a foreshadowing of a future Gotham.  Batman heavily uses the fear he puts into the common street criminal to maintain some sort of order in Gotham, though Batman is more of the 'unseen predator' type.  That scene with the dirty cop begging Gordon to spare him is exactly the kind of stuff the thugs do after Batman swoops down out of the shadows and lays the smackdown.  Commissioner Gordon generally doesn't approve, but he's pragmatic enough to understand that he doesn't really have a choice given how intricately Batman and Gotham are linked.

[shapeshifter]

...Poor Bruce. He was so excited to see Selina and then she gave him a total smackdown on every front. Not only did she tell them that they aren't friends and she doesn't want to hang out with him at all, but she says she lied about seeing who killed his parents. But leave it to Alfred to give Bruce a good lesson on having a stiff upper lip and squashing his feelings!

Are we to assume she said that to protect herself from caring too much about someone, or to protect Bruce?

[Shanna]

Please tell me the iceberg lounge is a real comic book name because that is hilarious.

I don't get what's up with Kringle and Nygma. Count me in as hoping she goes evil or something, because I can't figure out why I should care about her scenes if she is destined to be, idk, first casualty? I did enjoy their interactions more this episode, but Nygma had a definite expression that said he was going to do some murdering. If that cop turns up dead in lock up I will know who to blame.

I do agree with those who wish him could be a little less in your face but I enjoyed the hell out of that last scene at the precinct. And count me as dumb because I didn't realize at first that it was penguins guy who was torturing the dirty cops wife.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Shanna

[Kromm]

I'd rather not see Kringle anymore, since that usually leads to Eddie and his riddle boner, which is cringeworthy. Of course, Eddie isn't as bad as Barbara, and thank goodness we didn't see her tonight.

I like that Edward isn't just some out of the blue wacko.  Seeing proof how weird he is, i'm fine with that.  The problem is that we've had it presented to us and they keep repeating the same thing. We get it. He's obsessed with her, almost as much as his stupid riddles, she's creeped out but polite about it, and it's all going to go horribly wrong.  She's a corpse sooner or later--I think we all know that. It's clear it's coming, so if we aren't getting it now, at the very least they need to step back a bit and give us a break until an episode or two before it happens.

[Kromm]

I think that's a foreshadowing of a future Gotham.  Batman heavily uses the fear he puts into the common street criminal to maintain some sort of order in Gotham, though Batman is more of the 'unseen predator' type.  That scene with the dirty cop begging Gordon to spare him is exactly the kind of stuff the thugs do after Batman swoops down out of the shadows and lays the smackdown.  Commissioner Gordon generally doesn't approve, but he's pragmatic enough to understand that he doesn't really have a choice given how intricately Batman and Gotham are linked.

I couldn't disagree more.

 

Batman doesn't threaten people's families.  He threatens THEM--the person them-self and not innocents surrounding them.  This is a line he never even goes anywhere near.  Not within a country mile.  Not within a freaking planet.  It is, in fact, only when Gordon understands this about  Batman that he starts looking the other way (in the comics, and frankly, I think it's pretty safe to assume here...)

[Agent Dark]

I couldn't disagree more.

 

Batman doesn't threaten people's families.  He threatens THEM--the person them-self and not innocents surrounding them.  This is a line he never even goes anywhere near.  Not within a country mile.  Not within a freaking planet.  It is, in fact, only when Gordon understands this about  Batman that he starts looking the other way (in the comics, and frankly, I think it's pretty safe to assume here...)

Yeah I didn't meant to imply that he's going around threatening families of bad guys.  I meant that the shadow he casts over Gotham puts enough fear into criminals that he doesn't even need to actually physically hurt a thug for them to start begging for their life - just like Gordon didn't actually do anything to that crooked cop in this episode, yet he's on his knees begging Gordon to let him go.  Batman doesn't kill, of course, but the street criminals don't *know* that.  They're deathly afraid for their lives when Batman swoops out of the shadows, and Batman doesn't overtly go out of his way to dissuade that notion.  

Please tell me the iceberg lounge is a real comic book name because that is hilarious.

I don't get what's up with Kringle and Nygma. Count me in as hoping she goes evil or something, because I can't figure out why I should care about her scenes if she is destined to be, idk, first casualty? I did enjoy their interactions more this episode, but Nygma had a definite expression that said he was going to do some murdering. If that cop turns up dead in lock up I will know who to blame.

I do agree with those who wish him could be a little less in your face but I enjoyed the hell out of that last scene at the precinct. And count me as dumb because I didn't realize at first that it was penguins guy who was torturing the dirty cops wife.

Yeah, The Iceberg Lounge is the name of the club/restaurant that Penguin is usually running as a legitimate front for his crime organisation in the comics (things change around obviously with various reboots and such)

[Kromm]

Yeah I didn't meant to imply that he's going around threatening families of bad guys.  I meant that the shadow he casts over Gotham puts enough fear into criminals that he doesn't even need to actually physically hurt a thug for them to start begging for their life - just like Gordon didn't actually do anything to that crooked cop in this episode, yet he's on his knees begging Gordon to let him go.  Batman doesn't kill, of course, but the street criminals don't *know* that.  They're deathly afraid for their lives when Batman swoops out of the shadows, and Batman doesn't overtly go out of his way to dissuade that notion.  

Okay, but a key to your post was also the idea that Gordon was compromising himself to work with Batman, and that working with Penguin carved the way (the foreshadowing).  I in fact think it works the opposite way.  Gordon doesn't immediately jump on the Batman bandwagon in most of the more modern interpretations of the early years--he in fact only comes around to that point of view when he learns that Batman ISN'T simply a vigilante version of the criminals.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Kromm

[Agent Dark]

Yeah I didn't think I implied that?  I wasn't talking about Gordon asking Penguin for a favour, I specifically meant the scene in the alleyway with the crooked cop begging Gordon to spare him - substitute Gordon for Batman and that's a scene straight from Gotham 15 years in the future.

 

I mean Gordon has always been the Lawful Good cop as opposed to Batman's more Chaotic Good vigilante.  I think this episode shows that clearly, with Gordon completely unwilling to let things slide even if it's in his own personal best interest.  I doubt we'll see Gordon change much from that position either, or at least I hope we don't because I think that would compromise his character.  Gordon doesn't need to be an anti-hero, especially when Harvey Bullock is right there.

[darkestboy]

Ooh, that was a good episode.

The corruption storyline with Gordon vs. Flass had some decent moments but now his friendship with Oswald has slightly compromised his morality as well, going by Delaware's begging at the end of the episode.

Bullock and Essen (the latter especially) are growing a little more as characters. This is a good thing.

Fish can withstand a fair amount of pain. Glad we finally learned her real name but she's still in desperate need of a bad story. Not surprised that Fish and Bullock have a romantic/sexual history though.

Butch was great in this episode but I get the feeling that Zsasz is going to have a fun time torturing him as well.

Ivy continues to be creepy as anything.

The Bruce/Selina scenes - now there was a friendship ending badly for now, 7/10

[The Kings Foot]

You know there is a really good show lurking somewhere in Gotham but "the show" is still uneven. Gordon's do gooder routine verges on hammy and there's some rushed editing choices. I keep thinking they need to start reducing the cast, because  the actors arent given enough  space so when they do show up they try and compress an episodes worth of action into 5 minutes. 

[Cirien]

Kris Kringle's smiles and polite-ness don't (for me at least) indicate a softening in her feelings towards Nygma. Rather again it's a polite-ness so he doesn't attack her. And considering that his last gift was a live bullet in cupcake she might have reason to think he might *kill* her if she isn't on the surface, at least seeming to be swayed by his weird flirting.

Baring in mind how much Nygma seems to continuously *block her way* (which dude personal space much?). The card was nice and actually quite sweet, so I can imagine she liked, even if she was creeped out by the sender. And yeah, would feel a little sorry for him since I don't think she wanted him humiliated. But the way she backed out of his office, says she'd rather not be around him in  a dark hallway

[Philbert]

 

Commissioner Gordon generally doesn't approve, but he's pragmatic enough to understand that he doesn't really have a choice given how intricately Batman and Gotham are linked.

 

I think what this show is really all about, aside from the city's descent into the Hell that gives birth to Batman, is Gordon's journey from holier than though, White Knight Avenger, to the more pragmatic, go with the flow Sgt Jim Gordon that we see in "Batman Begins." I realize of course that the show does not have to fit in with the Nolan universe but the feel I get from "Gotham" is that they are trying to strike a fine line between those films and Burton's earlier entries into the franchise-while adding their unique take on it. Right now Mackenzie's Gordon doesn't resemble Oldman's much at all but I can see the one turning into the other in 20 years. I think that's where the show is going be cause honestly, the writers are about as subtle as a sledgehammer. They're lucky they have a first rate cast to cover some of it up.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Philbert

[Philbert]

 

I don't get what's up with Kringle and Nygma. Count me in as hoping she goes evil or something, because I can't figure out why I should care about her scenes if she is destined to be, idk, first casualty? I did enjoy their interactions more this episode, but Nygma had a definite expression that said he was going to do some murdering. If that cop turns up dead in lock up I will know who to blame

There are a couple of ways to go here. A lot of people seem to be assuming that Kristen is going to be Ed's first victim that sends him round the bend to The Riddler but it's just as likely that they go with the whole, "Girl falls in love with socially awkward guy-is tragically killed-sending him over the edge" motif. Personally (and yes, I realize I'm in the minority here) I don't find him that creepy. He's essentially a good guy-just with little to no interpersonal skills. I've known people like that in real life. Most of them are the most decent people you ever want to meet. It's the ones that ooze charm and confidence you have to watch out for. I can see Ed going bad not out of a desire to do evil but as a reaction to a personal tragedy-say, having Kristen fall in love with him and getting brutally murdered later. BTVS Season 6 Evil Willow anyone?

[Philbert]

 

You know there is a really good show lurking somewhere in Gotham but "the show" is still uneven. Gordon's do gooder routine verges on hammy and there's some rushed editing choices. I keep thinking they need to start reducing the cast, because  the actors arent given enough  space so when they do show up they try and compress an episodes worth of action into 5 minutes.

 

I agree with this, although I think it's already stumbling (maybe unwittingly) into 'good' territory-certainly by Network Television standards anyway, and heading into greatness. We won't know just how good it is until season three, IMHO. That's usually the pinnacle of any tv series. They struggle to find their voice in S1, hit the stride somewhere in the middle of S2, and pretty much hit perfection by the end of season three. I point to Buffy the vampire Slayer, Angel and Farscape as my examples. On the other hand, they often start to go downhill at that point. Angel had a brilliant S4 (IMHO) and only starting sliding after the howling blue monkeys at the WB started meddling with it. BTVS on the other hand struggled with quality after S3 and even though it produced some truly excellent episodes after that, never achieved the same level of storytelling as a whole until the disastrous S7 run.when it completely fell apart.

[Primetimer]

Gordon goes to battle with some of the bad guys at GCPD but ends up committing a few war crimes himself.

Read the story

[Ubiquitous]

Awwww, poor baby Bruce. I think Selena was feeling guilty and that's why she confessed (that is if she wasn't lying, in which case she got upset that their friendship was based in Bruce wanting something from her). Maybe a little of both. But still, aw.

Are we to assume she said that to protect herself from caring too much about someone, or to protect Bruce?

I thought she said all that to retaliate for Bruce inviting her to live at Wayne manner b/c it's better than the way she lives now. Kids tend to do that kind of thing. Edited January 27, 2015 by Ubiquitous

[missbonnie]

Gordon realizes to his horror that the guy is terrified that Gordon is going to have his wife and kids killed...because Penguin's man was interrogating them by holding the wife underwater in the tub. Gordon is figuring out exactly what the cost of 'cleaning up' Gotham is going to be-a whole lot of collateral damage.

This! And the utter horror he must have felt when he figured out what that favor cost. He's walking a very thin line and I agree that he definitely needs to pick his battles, he can't save everyone.

[benteen]

This! And the utter horror he must have felt when he figured out what that favor cost. He's walking a very thin line and I agree that he definitely needs to pick his battles, he can't save everyone.

 

Yeah, I think Gordon will back off from asking favors again from the likes of Oswald, unless absolutely necessary.  As pointed out, he doesn't need to be an anti-hero.

[shrewd.buddha]

This show really didn't grab me in the beginning, but lately I'm enjoying it at lot more.

What really helped was letting go of the Batman connection - the show works better on its own. The cinematography, the atmospherics, the clothing, the not-quite-sure time period (they have cell phones, but dress like the 50's).

All of that makes it fun to watch - much like the episode of Bones that was done as a 1960's Hitchcock movie.

...but I don't drive myself crazy trying to catch all the names and places that are related to Batman comics. That stuff goes back for almost 80 years..

[Delphi]

Poor Bruce. That's got to be rough. Lately I find my first thoughts after an episode to be "Poor (insert character)", so I suppose that's something the show is doing right.

I really wished something more happened with Fish and her torture. It really feels like the writers have no idea what to do with her character perhaps because Penguin became such an immediate fan favourite.

David has a fantastic talent for being so young and his chemistry with Alfred is phenomenal. However his scene with Selina felt kind of forced for both actors, but their kids so I give them a pass.

I liked Essen as well, she was kinda bad ass at the end there.

Finally, this is from the observer.com review, and I love it to pieces: "Because after Selina Kyle comes and snaps his heart in half like she’s Bane with a spinal cord, Alfred finds him crying and staring at a fire. Then, in this week’s episode, Alfred tells him, in so many words, STOP CRYING YOU ARE EVENTUALLY GOING TO BE BATMAN. I love tough-love yet borderline-abusive Alfred so much. He’s the character that says all the lines that I’m screaming at my television screen. No, I don’t want to watch Batman crying over Catwoman, I don’t care if he hasn’t exactly reached puberty yet. Grab a broom, clean up that snow globe you bought in Switzerland for your homeless girlfriend, then use that broom to smack a criminal in the face with it."

Edited January 27, 2015 by Delphi

[Chicago Redshirt]

I am a little sad that they didn't give Ed something more to do than be creepy and humiliated and ignored. I was hoping that after Flass made fun of his Valentine, Ed would use his super-smarts to help Gordon bring Flass down without resort to Penguin favors.

As for Gordon being lawfully good, just in this episode alone he conducted a blatantly illegal search, consorted with a person he knows to be a criminal to get dirt on Flass where he had to know some form of threat was involved, and even if he didn't, he's an accessory after the fact.

For all his high-minded ideals that he spouts, I think that Gordon wants to win as much as if not more than actually obtaining justice by the book.

[Dobian]

Penguin's mother picking up Liza's scarf was creepy, kind of like Mrs. Cobblepot herself.  Ozzy, Ozzy - this is why you don't celebrate until it's really over.  Also, kind of creepy.

 

I keep expecting Latka to walk through the door in her scenes.  I expect Latka to show up in any scene Carol Kane is in.

 

Glad we didn't have to revisit Barbara and her parents, Mr. and Mrs. Thurston Howell III.

[Traveller519]

If that's the show's initial 13 episode order, hopefully they settle in a little more in the second half. they need to start drawing out the arcs in the stories a little bit more, because it's been comically rushed so far. Osawld is forced to leave town! He's back in full force two episodes later. Jim is assigned to Arkham, Badge is reinstated in two shows. Fish has been captured and is about to pay for crossing Falcone! She's escaped within the first half our of the next week. Liza was an interesting sub plot because the relationship grew over multiple episodes from recruitment, to training, to execution, to developing feelings, to reveal, to death.

 

I'm okay if Bruce only pops up once every couple of weeks at this point. He's simply not central enough to what's going on among the big hitters. And the seens between to two kids are just awkward. Bruce interacts best with Alfred, and Selina interacts best with Jim. They can't carry a scene together in my opinion.

 

I was hoping for a bit more taste of succesfull Oswald. Though, I've got to think Maroni's closing in on him at this stage. News that he's taking over Fish's shouldn't take too long to spread. I can almost feel the eye rolls of the other cops as Jim starts yelling in the precinct... Again! But it was a great learning point to see him face the consequences of working with Oswald.

 

As for the Kringle and Ed. If all we get is the allusion of torture with Fish, I'm not holding out much hope for seeing her attempting to escape a Riddler Death Trap.

[beedub]

Between the ice pick murder, the implied torture of Fish, the near-drowning of a wife and mother, the various shootings and the usual face-punching, I once more feel compelled to say: EIGHT-OH-CLOCK? Get those kids to bed!

 

Moving along, Selena was initially charmed by the invitation and the gift, but it seems Bruce's offer of charity was what ultimately pushed her away. As Ubiquitous says:

   

I thought she said all that to retaliate for Bruce inviting her to live at Wayne manner b/c it's better than the way she lives now. Kids tend to do that kind of thing.

 

Yeah, she isn't a big fan of condescending, even if he didn't intend it that way (the boy can't help being rich). If only he knew she was currently livin' large with Ivy at Barbara's penthouse. If that's still happening. In any case, this would be a good point for her to exit Bruce's life and thereby be nothing but a distant memory by the time an adult Catwoman re-enters Batman's. But the young actress is too good, so you know that's not going to happen.

 

There are a couple of ways to go here. A lot of people seem to be assuming that Kristen is going to be Ed's first victim that sends him round the bend to The Riddler but it's just as likely that they go with the whole, "Girl falls in love with socially awkward guy-is tragically killed-sending him over the edge" motif.

 

Or a third variation, that Miss Kristen Kringle starts to get close then gets spooked and rejects him callously (and I'm going to go out on a limb and say it happens on Christmas), causing him to go all dark side. I agree, though, that her role is to be some sort of catalyst for his eventual life of crime. Just being the precinct whipping-boy isn't enough, there has to be a dame involved.

 

Random comment, I had to look up why Penguin's mom was being called "Mrs. K" (for Kapelput), meaning Oswald anglicized it to Cobblepot.

 

And yes Jim, you now have become what you despise the most, just like the criminals and their methods you're crusading against. As mentioned above, we know it isn't destined to go a lot further than this (being a prequel to a known quantity does take a little of the fun out of things), but it's a welcome development to hopefully tone down some of the righteousness and bring out a bit of the old Harvey Bullock pragmatism.

Edited January 27, 2015 by beedub

[maczero]

For all his high-minded ideals that he spouts, I think that Gordon wants to win as much as if not more than actually obtaining justice by the book.

 

Gruber (Electrocutioner) said the same thing to Jim last week and Jim confirmed it. 

[Shanna]

There are a couple of ways to go here. A lot of people seem to be assuming that Kristen is going to be Ed's first victim that sends him round the bend to The Riddler but it's just as likely that they go with the whole, "Girl falls in love with socially awkward guy-is tragically killed-sending him over the edge" motif. Personally (and yes, I realize I'm in the minority here) I don't find him that creepy. He's essentially a good guy-just with little to no interpersonal skills. I've known people like that in real life. Most of them are the most decent people you ever want to meet. It's the ones that ooze charm and confidence you have to watch out for. I can see Ed going bad not out of a desire to do evil but as a reaction to a personal tragedy-say, having Kristen fall in love with him and getting brutally murdered later. BTVS Season 6 Evil Willow anyone?

Interesting take! I don't find him creepy so much as awkward earlier in the show (I didn't find the bullet/cupcake thing menacing for instance) but this episode I think he was definitely showing some surpressed rage in that last scene when Kringle came to see him. Yes, he calmed down some when she talked to him but I think it was there.

But you're right, her dying tragically could set him off I suppose I am just tired of women dying randomly to upset men as a storytelling technique. (This is possibly arrows fault) If we are going to get to know miss Kringle of the stupid name, I want her to have a bit more purpose on the show.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Shanna

[Bandolero]

Jim is so sexy. Who knew integrity and standing up for your principles could be so hot. Love it when he doesn't back down. Penguin entertaining... Fish, kinda wish she would just die already.

[MaryMitch]

I'm glad to see others worrying about Butch! I think in the opening credits he (Drew Powell)  was listed as a "guest star" where in previous weeks he was in the regular cast credits.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I thought she said all that to retaliate for Bruce inviting her to live at Wayne manner b/c it's better than the way she lives now. Kids tend to do that kind of thing.

I think it was partly teenage pride/spite but that there were other factors:

(1) She realized how much he likes her now. Despite all of her earlier flirting, I think she knew that he didn't like her as more than a friend while she was staying with him so there was no harm in it. She mostly treated him as a little brother. But now she can see that he has gone from hero worship to crush and she doesn't feel want that. Although she is capable of caring (like when she tried to help Ivy), she never wants to feel obligated to be nice to someone. But seeing that he likes her as more than a friend makes her see that she has to put an end to things because she can't be with a rich younger boy.

(2) She saw that staying at his house inadvertently put him in danger and she doesn't want to be responsible for him getting hurt because of her.

(3) She sees nothing wrong with the way she lives and doesn't like Bruce judging her for it and thinking that his way of living is better. If anything, she sees him as being weak and pampered like the people she steals from and staying with him might make her become soft.