S03.E09: The Climb

[BkWurm1]

I'd like some clarification from Guggenheim or SA on that (preferably SA).  Because it seemed like Oliver hadn't even intended to say goodbye to Felicity if she didn't show up right then.  She basically walked in on him while he was leaving.  And then he told her he knew two things, but it was almost like he was going to walk out the door without saying the ILY if she hadn't asked what the second thing was.  If he was knew he was going off to his death, I think that they should have made a bigger deal out of the goodbyes.

 

I do think that Oliver would have left if she hadn't shown up but mostly because he would have had to with the deadline looming, but the impression I got from the scene was that Felicity had been called or texted to come to the lair but she got hung up which is why she was apologizing.  Obviously she somehow wasn't expecting that she was showing up for he big goodbye but she recognized it for what it was when she saw it. 

 

I do think Oliver believed he would take down Ra's just because he was so sure of his single focus. Yes if he died Thea would be safe from the League but she would still be at risk from Malcolm so he was also fighting to come back and be able to deal with that threat to his sister.  I think Malcolm had him convinced that the only reason that Malcolm had the edge in their fighting was because of his single minded purpose so when Oliver suddenly had it, he thought he had found the key to winning. 

 

But there is always risk even when you think you could win so he tosses out the "take care of Thea" line to someone else he knows loves her.  I think he left feeling really good about his chances of wining but also aware that things could go wrong. If he'd been sure he wasn't coming back, I agree that he would have made a bigger fuss about his goodbyes and would have in some way reached out to Laurel, Quentin, and Barry too.

 

If we later find out that he left them letters, I may rethink my stance. 

[tv echo]

I liked that Oliver's 'last' thoughts were of his parents, his sister and Felicity - that is, the people he loves the most in the world.  However, I wouldn't put too much stock in it.  Last midwinter finale, we had a shot of Felicity when Slade promised to corrupt someone Oliver loved, and that never happened.

 

But not much else in this episode made sense.  Malcolm's manipulative plan to use Thea to get Oliver to kill Ra's made no sense because Malcolm would've known that Oliver had no chance of defeating Ra's.  So what would Malcolm accomplish, except to kill Oliver - someone who, according to JB's interview comments, Malcolm regards like a son.  Oliver's death still wouldn't square Malcolm with the LOA. 

 

Incidentally, I think Oliver went to Ra's not necessarily expecting to win (despite what he said), but, as he said, to protect Thea from LOA retribution, which he would still do even if he died.  But I would also go with what Bkwurm1 said above.  He's also had kind of a death wish since he returned to Starling City, so maybe this "death" will get that out of his system and he can return with a new outlook on life.

 

Forcing the LOA trial by combat challenger to climb that cliff made no sense.  I assume that Ra's had to make the same climb - otherwise it's a cheat to make Oliver climb and then fight while tired from the climb.  But what's the point of the climb?

 

Having Ra's mention that he hasn't been challenged in 67 years made no sense.  Many viewers (like myself) have no comic book background, so that comment just comes across as either curious or a mistake.  Incidentally, I didn't find MN's Ra's frightening at all - no presence or charisma, plus he talked too much and looked a bit flabby.

 

Thea's loyalty to Malcolm made no sense.  He's responsible for the deaths of hundreds of people, including Tommy.  Balancing that against Oliver's lying to protect her, I'd think Oliver would have the edge on her loyalty.  I'd subscribe to the theory that she's been brainwashed by Malcolm.  But most likely not, in this season of inconsistencies and OOC moments.  Maybe Thea finding out what Malcolm has done will be what turns her against him and onto Oliver's side.  I actually found Thea's fighting kinda awkward as well .

 

Having Ray Palmer's ATOM origin story included in this episode made no sense.  It was like watching two different shows roughly edited together.  To be honest, his sad Anna story left me cold - maybe it was BR's acting, but I was not touched.  Ray still comes across like a creepy stalker.

 

Laurel's different explanations of why Sara's death must be kept secret  (first to Thea and then to Dinah) made no sense.  Having Thea come upon Laurel at the cemetery and saying something like "hey, Sara is alive" made no sense.  It just seemed like retconning by the EPs - like when they first killed off Sara and made her death this big secret, they forgot about the welcome home party thrown for Sara last season, and then they remembered, but since they already had the first half of the season plotted out as Laurel's motivational journey, they just retconned why it had to be a big secret.  So you have Thea making the odd "Sara is alive" comment (directed to viewers as a 'yes, we didn't forget that everyone in the city knows Sara was alive last season') and then two lame-ass explanations for keeping the secret - Sara was murdered and it has to be kept secret until we find out what happened, and Sara's dead but it has to be kept secret because of Quentin's health.  Ugh.

 

Incidentally, if I had a secret, I would never tell Laurel in a million years.  She just picks and chooses when and to whom to tell secrets.  She won't tell the secret to someone who should know (Quentin).  But she blabs the secret to people she just met or who shouldn't know (Ted Grant, Thea).  And let's not forget that last season she was ready to tell her father that Oliver was the Arrow before her father indicated that he didn't want to know.  Whatever the EPs' intention, she just comes across as self-centered.  Now she's put the burden on Thea to lie to her brother - even though Laurel knows Oliver already knows about Sara; and she's put the burden on her mother to lie to her father.

 

Another bit that seemed awkward and more a plot device for Laurel's motivation for her journey was that scene with Laurel and her mother at Sara's grave, when Dinah tells Laurel that she must make Sara's killer pay.  Normally, when a child is murdered, isn't the parent the one who wants to exact revenge?  The parent usually doesn't tell another child to do it.  I guess Laurel inherited her crazy/selfish gene from her mother.  Incidentally, we haven't seen Laurel doing anything to look for Sara's killer lately.  She's back at her DA job.  Is she relying on Team Arrow to do the investigating before she sweeps in for the kill?  

 

There's supposed to be an "emotional" scene between Laurel and Diggle coming up.  It's probably Diggle telling her about Oliver's death, and Laurel crying about how "everyone leaves me".

 But enough about Laurel.

 

Finally - and I know that this has already been debated - but Felicity not saying "I love you" back to Oliver made no sense to me.  Despite the bravado of everyone on Team Arrow saying that he'll beat Ra's and return (what else are they going to say?), they all know - including Felicity - that there's a very strong possibility that he'll die.  Although I like that Felicity knows Oliver well enough to know there'd be point in arguing with him about going, if she loves him and there's even a chance that he won't return, she should've said "I love you" back to him and not just stand there silently while he leaves.  In any event, they better not show Felicity getting romantically involved with Ray Palmer out of grief (because they each lost someone they loved).  I just don't like Ray.

 

Maseo's presence as a LOA member made no sense.  I thought Oliver met Maseo through ARGUS in the Hong Kong flashbacks.  Did I miss something?  It's possible, since I zoned out during some of those interminable flashbacks.  Or is it just that easy to leave ARGUS and join the LOA?  Maybe he's working undercover.

 

It's hard to be too upset about Oliver's 'death' since we know he's not dead - the show is called Arrow after all.  I don't think Oliver will be revived by the Lazarus Pit or at least not the comic book version of the Lazarus Pit (as I understand it).  He was skewered by Ra's, but not skewered through the heart (as someone else noted above).  Plus the freezing cold will have slowed the bleeding.  And in the preview shot, they showed the word "SURVIVE" and then someone coming toward Oliver's body.  It could be Maseo or someone else coming to rescue and revive Oliver.  Then he'll spend a month healing with the help of more magical herbs.

 

Kudos to SA's acting - he was the standout of this episode.  Him, and the visual look of the episode.

 

Damn... I might have to watch Episode 10 in January just to see Team Arrow's reactions to the news of Oliver's 'death'.

Edited December 11, 2014 by tv echo

[Ariah]

So people are sure that Oliver packed those herbs, right?  I rewatched, and I could not see them for the life of me, but if others say that they saw them, I trust you guys :)

 

There you go, because I've learned from Malcolm that a video proof is better than words (gif not mine) :

 

[BkWurm1]

So people are sure that Oliver packed those herbs, right?  I rewatched, and I could not see them for the life of me, but if others say that they saw them, I trust you guys :)

He has a faded green back pack and next to it were a multi tool knife, binoculars and his little leather bag with the herb inside. 

[Pyramid]

Finally watched it. I liked it, not the best, not the worst.

Fight at the end was excellent. There may have been a single man tear at his final thought.

The writers continue to assassinate Laurel's character. While she's saying she'll do whatever it takes to avenge Sara, Oliver is off sacrificing himself for his sister. It just highlighted the fact the laurel has done the square root of fuck all in her revenge crusade.

About Ray stalking: whether he is our not, the very fact the conversation is being had tells me the writers have dropped the ball.

Thea's story was something I was looking forward to this year, but it's just not working for me now. I mean brainwashing? Really?

Oh and laurel? Tell your father his daughter is dead you utter throbber

[calliope1975]

So if Oliver knew or was resigned to dying, is he just okay letting Malcolm control Thea for the rest of her life? He saved her life physically, but she's still in the control of a madman. Did he set up some type of contingency plan in case he didn't return? (Roy is not a good enough plan.)

Edited December 11, 2014 by calliope1975

[Actionmage]

Or is it just that easy to leave ARGUS and join the LOA?  Maybe he's working undercover.

 

Thank you for this thought, tv echo. In "Corto Maltese", the guy who turned on ARGUS meaningfully glowered at Dig and told him something along the lines of 'You can never leave ARGUS" or some such thought, implying that it's damn near impossible to leave Amanda Waller's employ alive. 

 

I doubt Maseo is undercover. Ra's would have decades of tests in play, at various levels, to catch folks who would do such a thing. If Ra's is willing to kill innocents due to one of his assassins being killed by an unknown, I doubt he's reasonable about undercover agents.

 

Also, show, pick a group that one can never leave and mean it, or quit trying to trumpet one over the rest. Waller and ARGUS is still supposed to be funded by the US government, so some eventual oversight/ mention of dealing with oversight folks might be appreciated. Maybe even a bean-counter asking about a North China Sea base. 

 

Xantar, thank you so much for your ability to clarify. Also, thank you, BkWurm1,for giving me more to think on in my dismay over the presentation of Ray Palmer, a fictional person, as well as RL acceptance. Reading both of your posts, one after the other, is helping me clarify how I look at this going forward.

[BkWurm1]

About the question of if Malcolm is using the herb to brainwash Thea into accepting him as #1 Dad in her life.  Probably not since that comes with memory loss but there are other forms of brainwashing and I'd say she most likely was conditioned by Malcolm into thinking of him in a certain wholly unreasonable way.  Chances are she's been programmed and trained to fight at the same time. 

[wonderwall]

I liked that Oliver's 'last' thoughts were of his parents, his sister and Felicity - that is, the people he loves the most in the world.  However, I wouldn't put too much stock in it.  Last midwinter finale, we had a shot of Felicity when Slade promised to corrupt someone Oliver loved, and that never happened.

I guess this is where you and I would differ because this is the ending montage before Oliver died. This is SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT than Slade's speech. This is Oliver's thoughts, this isn't some editing gag that could easily be changed. So I am putting a lot of stock to this moment. Because after Oliver told Felicity he loved her, it made sense why she was there. It made sense why she was put last. Because she gave him hope, and Oliver needed that hope before he essentially 'died'. 

[apinknightmare]

Finally - and I know that this has already been debated - but Felicity not saying "I love you" back to Oliver made no sense to me.  Despite the bravado of everyone on Team Arrow saying that he'll beat Ra's and return (what else are they going to say?), they all know - including Felicity - that there's a very strong possibility that he'll die.  Although I like that Felicity knows Oliver well enough to know there'd be point in arguing with him about going, if she loves him and there's even a chance that he won't return, she should've said "I love you" back to him and not just stand there silently while he leaves. 

 

She should've said it, and I understand why she didn't. But I think it will be a source of great regret for her once she finds out that he's "dead." 

 

 

 

Damn... I might have to watch Episode 10 in January just to see Team Arrow's reactions to the news of Oliver's 'death'.

 

Same. I'm not at all interested in Laurel's storyline, and I'm not as invested knowing Oliver's not around, but I am interested if they'll give us a hint about what actually happened to him (I want to see what happens when whoever that person is approaches his body), and I'm invested in what'll happen to Team Arrow once they find out. 

[Jediknight]

Thank you for this thought, tv echo. In "Corto Maltese", the guy who turned on ARGUS meaningfully glowered at Dig and told him something along the lines of 'You can never leave ARGUS" or some such thought, implying that it's damn near impossible to leave Amanda Waller's employ alive.

 

ARGUS agent: "It's just like you thought, Maseo has went to work for someone else."

Waller: "We're hitting Maseo and his team, you don't leave ARGUS alive and you don't take one of our agents.  Tell me about this group he's working for."

Agent: "I think they're called The League of Assassins."

Waller: "Stop right there.  The League of Assassins, the group led by Ra's al Ghul?"

Agent: "I guess so."

Waller: "Everyone the mission's off.  Maseo is not to be touched."

Agent: "Why not?  Who's this Ra's al Ghul guy?"

Waller: "Trust me you don't want to be on his bad side.  Remember the nut in Gotham?"

Agent: "Yeah, Frank still has some broken ribs, and James refuses to go anywhere dark."

Waller: "Well, our intelligence tells us that when he fights Ra's it's pretty much a tie.  And that's only because Ra's goes easy on him sometimes, due to Talia being in love with him, and Ra's wants him to take over."

Agent: "Oh so I shouldn't have kicked one of them in the groin?"

Waller: "Get him out of here now!"

[Danny Franks]

So if Oliver knew or was resigned to dying, is he just okay letting Malcolm control Thea for the rest of her life? He saved her life physically, but she's still in the control of a madman. Did he set up some type of contingency plan in case he didn't return? (Roy is not a good enough plan.)

 

Sshh! Stop asking questions that poke holes in the idiot logic behind Oliver's 'noble sacrifice'! It's all empty bluster from the writers, that won't ever amount to anything. Oliver didn't need to think about Thea being controlled by Merlyn, because he'll be back in a few episodes to save her. If the writers had to actually start thinking about the logical consequences of their choices, the season would probably be turning out very differently.

[SmallScreenDiva]

I liked that Oliver's 'last' thoughts were of his parents, his sister and Felicity - that is, the people he loves the most in the world.  However, I wouldn't put too much stock in it.  Last midwinter finale, we had a shot of Felicity when Slade promised to corrupt someone Oliver loved, and that never happened.

 

Yeah, that was one of the biggest WTFs from last season. The whole Slade corruption thing that never was. Still waiting for the EPs to explain what happened. Maybe in 25 years when they're doing the convention circuit they'll let fans know what changed. It could be as simple as "we decided to slow Olicity the heck down and that's why we ignored that ep and later threw Sara at Oliver."

 

But I think the "montage" during Oliver's death scene is a bit different. In the Slade scene, it was supposed to be his "plan." So we had people who appeared to be the targets. Of the people shown in the montage, only Roy was actually affected. Quentin was in montage and, well, he didn't really have a storyline in the second half either. In Oliver's scene, it's really just him remembering the people he loves the most. His parents, sister and, not surprising after his foundry statement, Felicity. Anyway, that's why I'm not going to equate the death scene with Slade's. Different purposes, methinks.

 

It took a while to settle my emotions regarding this ep. It was too packed, too rushed, too many storylines. I wish this was made into a two-parter.

Oliver's death shocked me, even though a part of me was expecting it (because it's Ra's! The Demon!). Stephen sold it and his last moments were heartbreaking. I thought that mountaintop duel totally rocked. The fight choreography put even some movies to shame. I wasn't impressed with Ra's when we first saw him, but with every scene in this ep, the sense of benevolent menace I got from him grew. His prayer over Oliver was chilling. As well as the very casual push off the mountain.

 

I continue to shake my head over the way the show keeps presenting Ray. I'm with some of the folks on this board who don't think his actions quite fall under "stalker," but at the same time I totally get why viewers would see him that way. I want to shake the writers and go "STOOOPPP IT." I actually like Ray, and I want to continue liking Ray, that's why I'm frustrated that they keep making him do things like ping Felicity's cellphone. It's not cute or charming!

 

Speaking of Ray, Felicity's response to his "never regret kissing you" statement gave me another insight into how she feels about being rejected by Oliver. The girl is still hurting from that -- very much. A guy stepping back from her she could blame on said guy. Two guys stepping back? She's probably wondering what's wrong with her -- and if Oliver is right in stepping back. Why didn't she say "I love you" back? (Because the show is saving it for Februrary sweeps! :P ) Well, I don't think she can yet. I think she does love him. But there's too much hurt still.

 

OTHER THINGS I LIKED:

Arrow/Thea and Oliver's WTF reaction to her ninja skills (do we know what floor Thea's apartment is on?)

Felicity yelling at Digg and Oliver

Roy's response to Oliver's "Why would Thea kill Sara" -- "Malcolm Merlyn is her dad?" Then shrugs and kind of grimaces. Turns out he was spot on.

China White/Tatsu katana duel -- I wanted this to go a little longer

Oliver casually throwing a pilot out of a window. Barry would still probably not approve, but hey, baby steps.

Speaking of windows, that's still a pretty good business to be in in Starling City.

Felicity's outfits and coats. Major clothes envy tonight. She was also wearing those red strappy shoes with bows.

Felicity slightly slamming her bag down when she was telling Oliver she knew there was no point in asking him not to go.

Felicity rubbing her fingers (just like Oliver when he's tense) after the ILY, touching his back in an earlier scene, pulling his shirt down when he kissed her forehead (or that could just have been from his bag, who knows?)

 

DIDN'T LIKE:

The ep grinds to a halt when Laurel comes on screen. Not even having the magnificent Alex Kingston helps. In fact, she gets dragged down, too. I get that laurel needs to be in this ep to set up the not-trilogy and "Canaries" but even when the main story is about her sister's murder, she's still not a vital part of the episode. In fact, if they took out her scenes and added more Team Arrow stuff, I'd be happier.

Magical plant -- COPOUT! I hate it with the fire of a thousands suns.

Removal of Thea's agency.

The continued fridging of women (possibly Tatsu and Ray's fiancee)

Sorry this is long-winded. I actually liked the episode overall even though you can go through plot holes with a truck. And now I want to see what Diggle and Felicity are going to do next. I'm looking forward to Thea and Felicity scenes; I hope they bond. And if Felicity and Ray do bond, I hope it's platonically.

Edited December 12, 2014 by SmallScreenDiva

[transgojobot]

How was Matt Nable as Ra's?

 

Matt Nable was serviceable. I mean, he did what he could, but, no, I'm sorry it just wasn't quite working for me. I cannot UN-see this man as anyone but Jeremy Renner's eldest cousin. No. Don't bother googling it. Matt's really not Jeremy's cousin. I'm just being cheeky. Still, it's one of the things that keeps me from completely embracing him as Ra's. But I'm willing to give him another chance, so we'll see.

[thuganomics85]

 

Matt Nable was serviceable. I mean, he did what he could, but, no, I'm sorry it just wasn't quite working for me. I cannot UN-see this man as anyone but Jeremy Renner's eldest cousin.

Heh.  Actually, on another thread, someone said he kind of looks like an Aussie version of Charles Bronson, which I can kind of see that.  Maybe that's what they were going for.  I do want to give him a chance, but I still feel like he lacked whatever it was Manu Bennett, John Barrowman, or even Nick Tarabay had, that automatically made me take notice with their baddies debuted.  But, I guess it could happen.  It did take me a few episodes to warm up to Michael Rowe as Deadshot.

 

But I still think Nyssa is the cooler (and hotter) Al Ghul!

[TVHappy9463]

How I love this show. I care about all the characters, and the writers keep them moving forward. The Olicity scene was awesome, big squee. They are dropping just enough breadcrumbs to keep me interested in Ray Palmer. So are they going to resurrect Oliver right away or will we have a few episodes where everyone thinks he is dead and Black Canary and Roy will take over. January is a long ways off.  UGH!  

[slayer2]

So people are sure that Oliver packed those herbs, right? I rewatched, and I could not see them for the life of me, but if others say that they saw them, I trust you guys :)

I'm pretty sure they're pulling a Chloe Sullivan here (not like they haven't before) a la Lazarus where Chloe took the anti-cyanide pill first. Of course Oliver couldn't be certain where Ra's would stab him. He must be straight-up grateful he didn't lop off his head, well I mean he will be I guess, when he wakes up.

[Orion]

MG tweeted that the song being sung after Oliver has been stabbed was an original composition by Blake Neely (Arrow composer) and the words are Arabic for "A hero has fallen".   https://twitter.com/mguggenheim/status/542913564361510913

[benteen]

I think I said it best earlier...Thea and Sara were sacrificed as part of the pissing contest between Oliver and Malcolm.  I was excited for Thea's storyline this year but between the hypnosis, the inexcusable devotion to her father (which might be part of that), and stuff like letting the slimy DJ kissed her, it's turning into a massive disappointment.

[wonderwall]

I actually really liked this episode! And I know I must be in the minority on this. Here are some of my main thoughts (this will get long):

 

Positives:

• When John said “I'd rather die then let you go it alone” to Oliver. This is so much more meaningful to  me than a measly hug and a "keep Thea safe". This quote shows brotherhood, camaraderie, and friendship. I think this is why it didn't bother me that they didn't hug before Oliver left. They know where they stand with each other. John's the only one who has Oliver's back in the field no matter what. The implications of this is insane and touching. John is a father now, he just got engaged, yet he can't not help Oliver because that's how much they mean to each other. This was the perfect Diggle/Oliver moment. 
• Felicity/Diggle having Oliver's back as a team. While Roy just stood there on the side, Felicity and Diggle calmed Oliver down, they talked him through all the crappy things he was going through throughout the episode. It just goes to show just how much they understand Oliver more than Roy. It shows that their bond is not easily broken and why original team arrow is considered to be the heart of the show. 
• Oliver's love for Thea made me fall in love with the character all over again. I love how this episode highlights that when Oliver allows himself to love, he loves intensely and he would do anything for his loved ones no matter what. Their moments were sweet, and I loved how he flat out denied that Thea was actually the killer. While they may keep secrets, and while Thea screws up constantly, this would never change how he feels about her. 
• Oliver and Felicity were the highlight of the episode for me. I blame my bias for this, but I also blame Stephen Amell and Emily Bett for their fantastic acting. While I don't think that their 'goodbye' scene was a 9, I thought it was moving. I didn't mind that Felicity didn't say 'I love you' back, because I honestly don't feel like it was the right time for her considering mere hours ago, she felt like Oliver regretted kissing her. It was one of the sweetest, understated, most heartbreaking moments on the show for me. Usually the romance is so overdone, that I'm glad this subtlety is back. 
• However, the Olicity moment that took the cake for me was the ending montage. Oliver's last kiss was with Felicity, his last I love you was to Felicity, and his last thought was of Felicity. If that doesn't show you the depth of his feelings then I really don't know what to tell you. When that kiss was on my screen that's when the floodgates broke. What made it so heartbreaking was to see Oliver resign to never being with her, I even saw a flicker of regret and sadness in that last scene, not specifically for Felicity but for Thea as well. 
• Ra's sold me. I loved how he wasn't so overtly menacing. I think he's a great counterpart to Merlyn who's over the top and whose evil is so 'in your face'. I love his subtlety. I love how he essentially treated Oliver like a little boy, because, let's be real, Oliver is. While I think he could've been played by a better actor, I like him. And I find him to be a silent force to be reckoned with. 
• The fight at the end, while some people found it to be underwhelming, I found it to be fantastic. The fight is MEANT to be underwhelming. I mean this is RA'S freaking AL GHUL against Oliver. I was surprised Oliver even lasted that long. It was totally appropriate. But what I loved the most was how the fight scene was done in complete silence. No soundtrack, no nonsense. It made the moment more chilling. 
• Stephen Amell did a fantastic job. That's it. 
• Thea's lame ass "I want to be stronger so I'll train with Merlyn" arc is now most probably over. Or at least i hope it is. Now that she's trained with him and has some skill, I hope she learns of Malcolm's true intentions and of Oliver's sacrifice. This I think will be the tipping point for Thea and will make her want to exact revenge upon Malcolm for using her and making her into a killer. I can't wait for this to happen! 
• The fight scenes between Katana and China White were fantastic. And I'm really starting to like Maseo! You could really tell how worried he was for Oliver. 
• Arrow/Quentin bonding time?! I NEED MORE. It saddened me to see how lonely Quentin was though. He needs some lovin'
• Overlooking the bad acting, I'm glad we saw Laurel not be angry for once and grieve for her sister. But that ended quickly smh. 
• Stephen shirtless. Nuff said. 

 

Questionable:

• Roy's non reaction to Thea being the killer
• "Don't make me choose between my father and my brother" quote made me confused. She can be so naive. But I understand why she'd want a relationship to Malcolm. He's the closest thing to a father she has at the moment. 
• Alex Kingston's accent
• Thea's MC Hammer pants
• Thea jumped out of the balcony and landed where without going splat?!

 

Negatives:

• The plot hole where Ra's suddenly cared for who killed Sara? That was kind of stupid. BUT I can totally see Nyssa goading him into action little by little. 
• The dues ex machina of the entire 'who killed Sara' plot. Lazy writing at its best. Kind of like magically introducing the mirakuru cure in the middle of season 2. Such a waste of a beautiful character. Thea being brainwashed was such a cop out. 
• I felt the Ray Palmer scenes didn't belong in this episode. Not a fan of him pinging Felicity's phone again. He needs to learn boundaries and not be rewarded for his actions. 
• QUENTIN STILL DOESN'T KNOW AND IT MAKES ME HATE LAUREL SO MUCH. 
• Most of the Laurel scenes. KC overacted all her scenes and they were kind of painful to watch for me. I'm pretty sure it's difficult to work off of KCs acting because Thea's scene with Laurel was kind of cringe worthy as well, but all of her scenes with Oliver were fantastic. It's quite baffling. 
• I didn't buy that Dinah would keep something like this from Quentin. And her telling Laurel to make the person who killed Sara suffer? That was a big WTF moment for me. NO MOTHER WOULD LET HER CHILD DO THAT NO MATTER WHAT. That was just so unbelievable and stupid. Waste of Alex Kingston's talent.

 

Overall I thought it was a solid episode. All my gripes were minor. I feel as though the major bits of the episode were handled better. 

Edited December 12, 2014 by wonderwall

[WaitandHope]

I watched it again and on second viewing, it's much better. Perhaps I was expecting too much the first time around. I love these characters so much that the whole thing just felt rushed and clipped last night and I wanted to spend more time with everyone. In the second viewing, I understood that was probably part of the point and it added to the feeling of dread.

I still don't understand why Laurel's inability to keep a secret was shoehorned in and the flashbacks just made me impatient (though they at least seemed to have a point), but all else flowed better on a repeat view. Even the Ray/Felicity scenes, while unrelated to the main action, served to build to the heartbreak of the climax with the feeling that Felicity could possibly move on without Oliver.

I think the scenes as conceived were better than the executed dialogue. The climbing of the mountain really did have a lyrical feel. I read a couple of reviews that praised the script, but I think while the script lacked, the epic nature of the story itself still achieved. And the "I do know two things" was a lovely callback.

Finally, my biggest question is whether Oliver was certain he was going to die or actually thought he could win. I've seen it interpreted both ways and I wonder if the EPs would answer this on twitter. I interpreted it as him being fairly certain he would die and just trying to keep a brave face for his loved ones. He seemed almost emotionally healthy running off to face the Demon, so methinks that means he knew he would lose. But then Oliver talked such bravado to Ra's and seemed pretty stunned when it happened, so I remain unsure.

And there's an even more tragic element to it if he actually thought he could win. So he tells Felicity he loves her and he thinks he's coming back? That is REALLY heartbreaking.

Edited December 12, 2014 by WaitandHope

[SmallScreenDiva]

Deleted

Edited December 12, 2014 by SmallScreenDiva

[pigs-in-space]

This is pretty random, but I'm 99.9% sure that the criminal at the beginning of the episode also plays Little John on Once Upon a Time.  I was wondering if Robin Hood was going to randomly pop up too.  Hey, now we've got meta humans and possible resurrected dead people.  Why not have a crossover with fairy tales?

 

(I kid, of course, but the possibilities are hilarious.)

[catrox14]

Okay. So I just rewatched it. As long as I totally ignore Laurel and the stupidity of her arc...and let go of my irritation about Thea, I have come to the conclusion that because of everything Oliver related with his family, both blood and otherwise, the fight with Ra's and the unexpectedly moving death scene...that this is in my top 5 episodes of the series.

 

I watched it this time without the ads and the pacing is vastly different and better. It flowed better. So good on you, show.  And again..Stephen was just perfect throughout this episode.

Edited December 12, 2014 by catrox14

[wonderwall]

I think that maybe this episode would be better after rewatching it? I think that seems like the trend :p 

[Starfish35]

I almost got the feeling that Ra's knew why Oliver was doing this. There was something in his speech about protecting family. I don't remember the exact words, but it made me think he knew somehow.

[Ariah]

I almost got the feeling that Ra's knew why Oliver was doing this. There was something in his speech about protecting family. I don't remember the exact words, but it made me think he knew somehow.

 

I'm pretty sure Ra's knew - first he aluded to Oliver thinking him a fool, then mentioned his own experience of fighting for a family. So yes, he knew.

He probbaly went along, because if Ra's can have a soft spot it's a soft spot for boys from rich families who happen to be vigilanties with psychological problems and an affinity for wearing strange costumes.

[Starfish35]

It occurs to me that trying to interrogate Queen women as the Arrow never goes well for Oliver. At least Thea didn't shoot him like Moira did. ;)

But on a serious note, I know the show won't actually do it, but I would really like to think that Oliver somehow made arrangements for Thea to find out the truth about Malcolm if he didn't come back. :( I don't know - of all the things wrong with this episode, I don't know why that bugs me the most, the idea that Oliver left knowing that he could die and leave Thea even more tightly under Malcolm's control.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Starfish35

[olicityfan25]

Stephen Amell was a beast in that last scene. So heartbreaking and way too many tears over that on my part.

 

Emily Bett Rickards was ace again. She is always one of the highlights for me. Diggle (David) was also amazing.

 

The fight was excruciating to watch because I had that sinking filming for Oliver. The whole episode was somber on his part 

and the ending fight scene put it all together in that moment for me. I think Oliver knew.

 

The Oliver and Felicity scene that I choose to see as the 9 is Oliver's flashbacks to his family and kissing Felicity. But, their goodbye scene was appropriate

and made sense to me.

 

Everyone probably know what the bad aspects of the show are from me so I'll just end it here. lol

[Pyramid]

I don't read the comics, so I don't really know how R'as will react to Oliver being alive. Will he decide that honour was satisfied with the duel, or will he starting gunning for the citizens of Starling again?

[tv echo]

I guess this is where you and I would differ because this is the ending montage before Oliver died. This is SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT than Slade's speech. This is Oliver's thoughts, this isn't some editing gag that could easily be changed. So I am putting a lot of stock to this moment. Because after Oliver told Felicity he loved her, it made sense why she was there. It made sense why she was put last. Because she gave him hope, and Oliver needed that hope before he essentially 'died'. 

I agree with what you say.  It does make sense.  My comment was more a reflection of my immense distrust of the EPs right now - that I don't trust them to follow through or make sense or not to change horses midstream.  Editing gag or not, it's what viewers saw on screen and what misled them.

 

Regarding Oliver leaving Thea in Malcolm's control - I just  think Oliver was prioritizing.  He can't do everything.  First priority was dealing with Ra's al Ghul's 48-hour ultimatum and saving Thea's life, as well as the lives of 50 citizens of Starling City.  He didn't have time or any plan other than to sacrifice himself.  Yes, Thea is still in Malcolm's control but at least she's alive.  If he survives Ra's, then he'll return and deal with Malcolm.  Hopefully, he did leave a letter or instructions or something - or he'll just trust Team Arrow to protect Thea and deal with Malcolm.

 

It seems a lot of what has happened this season is just an EP plot contrivance - Sara's death, Oliver's absence, Felicity not saying ILY back, etc.  Even Maseo's presence with the LOA is probably just a plot device to save Oliver.

Edited December 12, 2014 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

I just somehow managed to make myself watch the ending of The Climb again, and it doesn't seem like Oliver fell that far - there's the sickening thud of beautiful body hitting cliff shortly after he fell, so, maybe not completely unsurvivable with a metric shit ton of island herbs, a little luck, and some TLC?

[dtissagirl]

I just somehow managed to make myself watch the ending of The Climb again, and it doesn't seem like Oliver fell that far - there's the sickening thud of beautiful body hitting cliff shortly after he fell, so, maybe not completely unsurvivable with a metric shit ton of island herbs, a little luck, and some TLC?

 

Yeah, I got the feeling that the fall was short as well. The shirtlessness is for saving his life reasons. So the hypothermia can save him from bleeding out.

 

RIGHT?  

[NumberCruncher]

Yeah, I got the feeling that the fall was short as well. The shirtlessness is for saving his life reasons. So the hypothermia can save him from bleeding out.

RIGHT?

Someone on Tumblr with a medical background did a really interesting analysis about slowed metabolism and extreme cold preventing blood loss that I thought had real story potential...until I realized who was running the show and then promptly dismissed the idea. ;) Edited December 12, 2014 by NumberCruncher

[Shanna]

I wouldn't feel remorse. She hasn't done much to feel guilty about IMO. I would feel sad and angry and betrayed but she's not guilty of anything. She was tricked, mind-controlled and manipulated, par for the course with that character I guess.

She did choose to go be trained by a known mass murderet. I mean, I like Thea but she's not blameless here.

I can't say if I liked the episode or not but I am interested in what happens with Oliver and Mateo, who has turned into my favorite random character this season. I was so excited to see him in present day and I see him nursing Oliver back to life.

I think there is an outside chance ray was lying in that scene. I didn't find Brandon believable so I am choosing to believe that is lies. It's clear this whole thing was actually about recruiting feleciity to his crusade, not romance. I really hope they keep it professional.

I did think people were oddly blasé about Oliver heading off to his death but I think everyone on team arrow was trying to believe Oliver would be fine. If Mateo doesn't save Oliver, I would love to see that Diggle had followed him or something

Edited December 12, 2014 by Shanna

[Starfish35]

I know the "Sara's death is a SECRET!" thing has very little in the way of logic holding it up anyway, but....can someone explain to me why Laurel told Thea not to tell Oliver? Oliver knows! Laurel knows that Oliver knows! Thea's assumption would be that Oliver knows because he was a friend of Sara's and/or that Laurel told him, not "Oliver knows because he's the Arrow", which is the only dim shred of a reason I can think of that she might have said that. So I'm baffled. Anyone have any ideas what was up with that?

[KenyaJ]

I think that maybe this episode would be better after rewatching it? I think that seems like the trend :p 

 

I liked it the first time, but I definitely enjoyed it more the second time I watched. Mostly, I was just happy that I wanted to rewatch the episode. I've only felt that way 3 or 4 times this season.

[tv echo]

I know the "Sara's death is a SECRET!" thing has very little in the way of logic holding it up anyway, but....can someone explain to me why Laurel told Thea not to tell Oliver? Oliver knows! Laurel knows that Oliver knows! Thea's assumption would be that Oliver knows because he was a friend of Sara's and/or that Laurel told him, not "Oliver knows because he's the Arrow", which is the only dim shred of a reason I can think of that she might have said that. So I'm baffled. Anyone have any ideas what was up with that?

The only thing I can think of is that Laurel blurted out the secret to Thea in a moment of weakness and then immediately regretted it.  She didn't want Oliver to know that she told Thea because she knew he wouldn't be happy about it, so she told Thea not to tell Oliver the secret.

[bethy]

When Laurel tells the secret she seems to want to leave people with the impression that she's the only one who knows.  She told Ted (is that his name? the boxing guy?) that no one else knew that her sister had been killed.  Did asking Thea not to tell Oliver leave the same impression?  Did her telling her mother not to tell Quentin do the same thing? I honestly don't know. It just hit me so I wasn't paying close enough attention to Laurel's conversations to remember that exactly.

 

Maybe she is trying to protect Team Arrow.  I guess she can't very well say, "I know and a bunch of other people know.  Who have agreed with me to keep Sara's death secret.  For reasons."

 

Oh dear. Does that mean I'm not going to be able to ff through her scenes on rewatch?

Edited December 12, 2014 by bethy

[catrox14]

I agree with what you say. It does make sense. My comment was more a reflection of my immense distrust of the EPs right now - that I don't trust them to follow through or make sense or not to change horses midstream. Editing gag or not, it's what viewers saw on screen and what misled

As squirrelly as these shows runners can be and in spite of the stupidity of Laurel, they would seriously damage what little cache they may have left if they made that I montage a fake out.

It would completely undo Oliver's powerful death scene which was written to lull the casual audience into being really truly worried that Oliver is really most sincerely dead and at least mostly dead for the obsessed spoiler crowd. You can't do that convincingly without showing Oliver legit last thoughts. So no, I don't believe it was anything but what we saw me t to let us know that this is what Oliver thought about as he was dying.

Edited December 12, 2014 by catrox14

[GirlWednesday]

Ok! I liked it and HATED it!

Psst writers! What the hell are you smoking! I called Thea as the killer because angst and common link among multiple characters. What a waste because we did not see Roy suddenly overcome with regret that he managed to protect Thea from nothing despite all his lies and Oliver too on that point!

Laurel .. Who was all ragey and murdery. Suddenly conflicted because one pseudo sister killed her sister. Where is the line in forgiveness. There was a well of bitterness to tap and strengthen the character and making the character learn that sometimes the bad guys are not always bad guys. Whether I want to see the journey. Meh but what a waste of opportunity.

R's al Ghul and Oliver's battle! What a dumb ass ending. After the greatness (ymmv) of the crossovers, they wasted it. If 'Oliver' killed Nysaa's beloved, then the league's swift and brutal justice should have been taking Oliver's beloved. That would have explained why we are suddenly seeing olicity at this level.

Oliver going to the mountain and seeing Nysaa and her telling him THAT, having a brutal fight and with no winner. Going back to the lair and finding Felicity gone. That's a great cliffhanger!

And what a setup! All the characters have a common goal. What a fucking waste. I love this show but what a waste. Yeah writers! Oliver is dead and is going to stay dead.

Yawn!

[Starfish35]

It might have been a good cliffhanger, but it would require Ra's and Nyssa to actually believe that Oliver killed Sara, and I don't think they do. Particularly Ra's.

[wonderwall]

There are two ways to take this cliffhanger. 

 

1. As a casual viewer you'd probably be freaking shocked that they killed the Arrow
2. Us internet viewers who have more knowledge are probably wondering how Oliver will get back. It the lazarus pit will come into play? Is Oliver actually dead? Or is he barely alive and someone will save him? If so, who is that someone? How will team Arrow take the news? Who will tell Thea? Will they keep Oliver's death a secret from her (ugh I hope not)? What circumstances will prompt Oliver's return? 

 

So yeah. I kind of liked the cliffhangers because there are so many questions that need to be answered which is what a cliffhanger is supposed to do. 

[MsSchadenfreude]

 

 

Oliver going to the mountain and seeing Nysaa and her telling him THAT, having a brutal fight and with no winner. Going back to the lair and finding Felicity gone. That's a great cliffhanger!

And what a setup! All the characters have a common goal. What a fucking waste. I love this show but what a waste. Yeah writers! Oliver is dead and is going to stay dead.

Yawn!

 

Hmm, not sure how yet another "woman in peril" storyline would be a great cliffhanger especially since it would pretty much be a retread of Slade's revenge for his lost "love" story from last season.  Sure, Oliver is probably not dead.  But personally I would rather watch his team figuring out how they continue with the mission when they think he is dead (or do they think he's dead?), rather than Oliver/team needs to save Felicity because she's been taken.  

Edited December 12, 2014 by MsSchadenfreude

[Password]

Why would Felicity be gone?

You know the danger of Oliver seeing his loved ones have moved on (and are perhaps OK and happy) could make a person of his self martyrdom ways retreat. I mean we've had good growth thus far from him concerning Thea and Roy and ignoring Laurel's "please train mes", but I do wonder if he would fight for his slice of happiness on return.

I mostly wonder how his "death" will affect his views on his life and identity. What will he learn whilst recovering? Will he once again hide behind his hood or step out of the darkness? What I loved about that ILY scene was Oliver said "I don't know who I am" but he knew those two facts. He knew he'd protect Thea at all costs and he loved Felicity. It meant he had things worth FIGHTING for and he finally acknowledged it. Instead of his dour "this is how I'll die eventually" attitude.

I can't waaaaaait.

[statsgirl]

GirlWednesday, Laurel doesn't know that Thea killed Sara.  Wisely I think, Team Arrow didn't tell her because at this point, she's a loose canon right now and the only person who she will listen to is Oliver and he can't deal with that right now.

 

Finally, my biggest question is whether Oliver was certain he was going to die or actually thought he could win. I've seen it interpreted both ways and I wonder if the EPs would answer this on twitter. I interpreted it as him being fairly certain he would die and just trying to keep a brave face for his loved ones. He seemed almost emotionally healthy running off to face the Demon, so methinks that means he knew he would lose. But then Oliver talked such bravado to Ra's and seemed pretty stunned when it happened, so I remain unsure.

And there's an even more tragic element to it if he actually thought he could win. So he tells Felicity he loves her and he thinks he's coming back? That is REALLY heartbreaking.

I really liked seeing this episode in contrast to last season's City of Blood where Oliver had given up and was willing to sacrifice himself just to make it stop.  This time he's not willing to do that, he's going to go down fighting as hard as he can.  But realistically, he's going up against Ra's al Ghul and the odds are not great that he will make it back.

 

So hoping desperately that he will come back, to Thea, to Felicity, to his crusade, he also prepares for the fact that he very well may not, refusing to let Diggle risk  his life for him, telling Roy to take care of Thea, and finally being completely honest with Felicity again.

 

I know the "Sara's death is a SECRET!" thing has very little in the way of logic holding it up anyway, but....can someone explain to me why Laurel told Thea not to tell Oliver? Oliver knows! Laurel knows that Oliver knows! Thea's assumption would be that Oliver knows because he was a friend of Sara's and/or that Laurel told him, not "Oliver knows because he's the Arrow", which is the only dim shred of a reason I can think of that she might have said that. So I'm baffled. Anyone have any ideas what was up with that?

I think it's a power thing.  Right now, Laurel is telling everyone the secret with the addendum "I can't tell anyone else...Don't tell anyone".  She even told Ted Grant that her sister was murdered and she's the only one who knows, which is a big fat lie.

 

As long as Laurel tells everyone "my sister died; don't tell anyone", the people who know don't talk amongst themselves and she controls the secret.  Once Thea talks to Oliver, or Dinah to Nyssa or Oliver or Thea, the power is out of her hands.

 

I think Oliver is a control freak but that's from his time on the islands where if you don't control everything, don't look at all the escape plans, you die.  Laurel is controlling, I think even in the flashbacks Laurel is someone who likes controlling others and it's consistent to present day (e.g. last episode telling Quentin she wants to police to spend more time looking into the burglaries).

[paigow]

Or maybe Ray Palmer will shrink down and perform micro-surgery on Oliver after Barry grabs his body and brings it back to Starling City.

Guaranteed that Oliver will stay dead - Ray will be busy trying to "operate" on Felicity...

[MarquisDeCarabas]

My takeaway right now is the LoA probably has some form of 'natural' Mirakuru which they call Lazarus.

 

I have to figure that Nyssa knows something else is up, like for example who told Ollie he had the right to trial by combat?

[Genki]

Everyone has mostly said what I think/*sniff*feel*sniff*, but just some additional thoughts:

 

This is the first time that I felt and urgency  about Sara's death and the need to solve it, it has been lacking so far this season

 

When Sara died it impacted me because I was upset/angry more for what this meant to the story, and to the show, than for seeing Sara die (even though I like her a lot). Whereas Oliver's "death" impacted me more emotionally for Oliver and the other characters, so well done show. Even though I know it's not permanent, (and we may have BC reasons that it occurs) it hurt and made me sad, and was beautifully shot, acted and edited, the gifs of it make my allergies act up. 

 

I love the 1-sided telephone conversation between Caitlin and Felicity "Are you alright?" "No I'm fine...". I haven't watched the Flash yet so I'm not sure what happened, but I love the thought of these ladies become confidants for each other.

 

Even though Felicity touched Oliver in the x-over (slight elbow nudge during the farewell/lecture at Star Labs), I love the reaction, by Oliver, to her touch and that she rubbed his back during the whole exchange. 

 

I can't say how much I resented Ray scenes when there is a clock on Oliver getting his affairs in order, I don't want to spend time with Palmer at all. 

[insubordination]

Magic mind control drugs and Ra's Al Retcon who suddenly loves Sara. They really make me feel stupid for watching. 

 

I did pay attention to that ending fight and maybe have teared up a little because SA nailed the 'death' scene. However, if Oliver's wounds aren't fatal, then Ra's seems less powerful.  Oh well,  this magic pit will probably fix Oliver or maybe the magic herbs he packed or magic mirikuru can make him strong again. All fantastic, magical solutions.  The fan from 'Misery' would not put up with this shit.

 

I would have liked to have seen Nyssa's reaction to Oliver's death.  Just curious.

 

Such a downer of an episode with far too much happening and Diggle (and Quentin) sidelined again. I preferred last week's episode.

Edited December 13, 2014 by insubordination