S03.E09: The Climb

[foreverevolving]

Other than the Wayne Tech reference, the only indirect indication that Batman might exist is Felicity's humorous sensitivity to Cisco's use of the word "Arrow-cave.": We don't call it that -- ever.    There would be almost no reason for Cisco to blurt "Arrow-cave" unless there was already a Batcave.   Ditto for his question, "Is there an Arrow-mobile?"

He's Cisco the lover of all things gadgets. Also.. Cisco very new to this hero thing stuff, even if batman exists how the hell would he know what batman uses?

I don't think Batman exists in this universe, or if he does there may be a chance that he is retired.

Personally i wouldn't it that way, i love the bat, but i feel like it will be more interesting if he is no longer active hero.

But.. We all know batman will never appear on Arrow/Flash verse cause DC probably thinks the viewers are stupid and will confuse tv bat with movie bat, that's the only explanation i have why they won't bring batman into the arrow verse even just for a proper name drop (the Smallville thing doesn't count).

With that being said, it really doesn't bother me there's no batman on arrow verse.. For me the tv verse is simply another parallel earth, so just like i am absolutely fine with Olicity even though it's not comic book canon, i am okay with going: well maybe in this one batman never came to be.

[millennium]

Olicity.

 

I don't get that.   Am I the only one who saw Oliver's attraction to Felicity come out of left field?    There was no lead-up, no build.   Oliver was in love with Sara and then, what, Cupid struck? (not Carrie Cupid, but  the mythical Cupid)

 

It's like the writers gave the shippers what they wanted, even though it feels fake.   I get no heat from those two.  They seem more like brother and sister.

 

Speaking of catering to the forums ... Laurel's role felt very diminished this season.

 

But getting back to Cisco, sure he's into gadgetry.   But to pop out that exact phrase "Arrow-cave," there had to be a precedent.   Maybe Batman's just a comic book character in that universe and that's why "Arrow-cave" plays as a joke.   I don't know.   I just think it's cheap that they ignore the Batman yet pillage his Rogue's Gallery -- not to mention his Neal Adams covers.   

 

FWIW, Batman and Green Arrow were allies throughout their careers and even in the speculative future.   If I recall, Green Arrow is the only (former) member of the Justice League who helps Batman take down Superman in Frank MIller's Dark Knight series.   Both men are about the same age.

Edited December 18, 2014 by millennium

[dtissagirl]

A whole lot of people call the room where they keep their giant tv and video games and assorted gadgetry their "man-cave", and A LOT of times that is the basement, so I think "Arrow-cave" works as a riff on that, rather than specifically the Batcave.

I mean, it is totally a riff on the Batcave, and also a wink to fandom for calling it the Arrowcave since S1, but I can go with a non-Batman reference here, to something that's even normally mentioned on pretty much every interior design tv show/magazine these days.

[millennium]

I think the comic book cover posted above ably demonstrates that the Arrow creative team has no qualms about blatantly ransacking Bat-lore at whim.

Edited December 18, 2014 by millennium

[statsgirl]

You know what makes it worse?   Batman doesn't seem to exist in the Arrow universe.   I could maybe understand if now and then somebody said, "The League of Assassins?  I know they've made life hell for the Batman over the years."  But not a word.

At Phoenix comic com, David Ramsey said that the two cities they are not allowed to use on the show are Gotham and Metropolis.  He added that every time they want to use a DC comics reference, it comes with a ton of legal paperwork.  Others have said that at the planning meetings for the next season, DC tells them which characters they can use, and others they can't.  There were a number of references to Ted Kord in the first two seasons but when it came time for season 3, they weren't allowed to use the character and switched to Ray Palmer instead.

 

I get the feeling MG and AK would love to talk about Batman and Superman and everything in the DC universe but they're not allowed to.

 

Olicity.

 

I don't get that.   Am I the only one who saw Oliver's attraction to Felicity come out of left field?    There was no lead-up, no build.   Oliver was in love with Sara and then, what, Cupid struck? (not Carrie Cupid, but  the mythical Cupid)

For me, the romantic beats for Oliver and Felicity started in season 1 (e.g. the elevator shaft swing "in a very platonic way").  Sara was a FWB relationship generally thought put in there to stall Olicity.  Sara even told him to get with Felicity, twice.

[apinknightmare]

I think the comic book cover posted above ably demonstrates that the Arrow creative team has no qualms about blatantly ransacking Bat-lore at whim.

 

I think the whole show demonstrates that. And the EPs openly admit it.

[Orion]

Olicity.

 

I don't get that.   Am I the only one who saw Oliver's attraction to Felicity come out of left field?    There was no lead-up, no build.   Oliver was in love with Sara and then, what, Cupid struck? (not Carrie Cupid, but  the mythical Cupid)

 

It's like the writers gave the shippers what they wanted, even though it feels fake.   I get no heat from those two.  They seem more like brother and sister

 

This question and further discussion about it would be better answered in the relationship thread on this forum where this couple has been talked about a lot and you would find how most people feel about them there. However, I would say judging from this site, my real life friends that watch this show, the internet in general and the media yes, you would be in the minority feeling that way.

 

Speaking of catering to the forums ... Laurel's role felt very diminished this season.

 

This would be a better topic in the Laurel Lance thread, however, diminished this season as apposed to last season where she was either a Damsel in Distress or a alcoholic-drug addict for the majority of the episodes? As much as I don't like Laurel's story this season or ever, she is more involved with the A plot now than she ever has been.

 

But getting back to Cisco, sure he's into gadgetry.   But to pop out that exact phrase "Arrow-cave," there had to be a precedent.   Maybe Batman's just a comic book character in that universe and that's why "Arrow-cave" plays as a joke.   I don't know.   I just think it's cheap that they ignore the Batman yet pillage his Rogue's Gallery -- not to mention his Neal Adams covers.

 

 

Since the Green Arrow comics were first written in the 40's he has had an Arrow-car, an Arrow-plane, an Arrow-signal, and yes even an Arrow-cave.  He was created with Batman and Robin Hood influences. The writers in this regards by using the phrase "Arrow-cave" are upholding comic canon.

[apinknightmare]

So, here's what I don't get about Thea as Sara's killer. Why wasn't Sara surprised to see Thea on that rooftop? I mean, she was wearing a hood and pointing arrows at her. If she'd just seen Thea dressed as Thea then I would understand, but Thea in a hood with a weapon warrants some surprise IMO. Unless Malcolm had her out killing other people, too, and Sara knew about it? But if Sara knew about it then surely the League did too, and they would've maybe put 2+2 together to guess that Thea was her killer? 

[millennium]

 However, I would say judging from this site, my real life friends that watch this show, the internet in general and the media yes, you would be in the minority feeling that way.

 

 

I usually am.

This would be a better topic in the Laurel Lance thread, however, diminished this season as apposed to last season where she was either a Damsel in Distress or a alcoholic-drug addict for the majority of the episodes? As much as I don't like Laurel's story this season or ever, she is more involved with the A plot now than she ever has been.

 

 

 

I guess.   But it seems the Damsel and Drug Addict storylines received more emphasis.

I think the whole show demonstrates that. And the EPs openly admit it.

 

They are shameless, then.

So, here's what I don't get about Thea as Sara's killer. Why wasn't Sara surprised to see Thea on that rooftop? I mean, she was wearing a hood and pointing arrows at her. If she'd just seen Thea dressed as Thea then I would understand, but Thea in a hood with a weapon warrants some surprise IMO.

 

Half the characters in this show are running around in hoods and pointing bows.   Maybe it's not surprising to anyone anymore.

Edited December 19, 2014 by millennium

[millennium]

At Phoenix comic com, David Ramsey said that the two cities they are not allowed to use on the show are Gotham and Metropolis.  He added that every time they want to use a DC comics reference, it comes with a ton of legal paperwork.  Others have said that at the planning meetings for the next season, DC tells them which characters they can use, and others they can't.  There were a number of references to Ted Kord in the first two seasons but when it came time for season 3, they weren't allowed to use the character and switched to Ray Palmer instead.

 

 

Thanks for this.   My feeling is, if you can't use Batman, then don't use him or his legend at all.   That means no swiping.   What made the shirtless swordfight scene cringe-worthy is the fact that the creators of this show do have the ability to create original storylines, i.e., the island origin of Arrow, which I enjoyed.   To see them ape somebody else's work (Denny O'Neil, I think) from 40 years ago at this advanced stage of the game feels like a cheat.

Edited December 19, 2014 by millennium

[quarks]

1. Regarding mentioning Batman on the show, I agree with Millennium that it would be the right thing to do, but leaving aside DC's already highly questionable history of crediting writers/creators, legally, they can't. The CW is a joint CBS/WB venture, and CBS does not own the trademarks or television rights to the Batman properties, which are currently leased to FOX.  (And that's just in the U.S.)  The shows can make a few pop culture references under fair use law, like Cisco's joke about Star Wars during the crossover episodes, but that's it, and I expect someone on the show ran even that one past Disney before the episode was broadcast. See, also, why we have Atom on this show and not Blue Beetle.  It's not because the writers are stupid or unaware; it's because these are extremely valuable Time Warner properties. Forbes estimated a couple years ago that Batman brings in about $600 million annually before considering film/television rights. That's the sort of money under discussion here.

 

And to be fair, although Green Arrow was and is very much a Batman ripoff, Batman himself is a Zorro ripoff, who in turn was a Scarlet Pimpernel ripoff, who in turn was inspired by the Count of Monte Cristo, who in turn was inspired by a real life vengeful murderer, at least if we believe Dumas. Pretty much none of these creators except Dumas credited the original inspiration, and in Dumas' case he was mostly doing it to convince his readers that the events in the book really could happen.  So I'm a little leery of giving too much credit to Batman's originality here. And also to be fair, Arrow's writers have credited both the Nolan Batman films and Angel as inspiration at least in interviews, if not in the show.  They also credited Homer's Odyssey. So there's that.

 

2. According to Wikipedia, the original Green Arrow, who was, granted, a total Batman ripoff, had an Arrowcave. So that's probably the precedent the show was using.  That said I actually think it's just a joking nod to fans who have been calling it the Arrowcave. I'm really not reading that much into it.

 

3.. Regarding Laurel's diminished role - Her role has definitely been diminished since the first five episodes of the show, where the apparent idea was to have her appear in 15-20 minutes of each episode, something she's only managed in two episodes since then - "Blind Spot" in the second season and "Guilty" this season.  She also had an increased role, in terms of screentime and plot, in "Sara" and the "Magician" this season.  That said, yeah, she was missing entirely from episode 7, was barely in episode 8, and was completely sidelined in episode 9, only interacting with one of the other cast regulars, so although she's actually had more screentime this season than she did in the same episodes last season, I can see how her role might seem diminished at this point, if you are comparing her role in the first season to this season.

 

We've been told that Laurel's character will come into focus in the next three or four episodes, though, so that might change. 

[Lisin]

Hi Gang! It looks as if we've gone a bit off topic in here. Noting is being moved (yet) but please remember what topic you're in when posting and think about if what you want to say is really about this episode or perhaps it belongs in the Relationships topic or the Comics topic etc. Thanks! Remember you can always PM us if you have any questions! 

 

You're friendly neighborhood mods,

 

Lisin, MostlyC, Silverstormm, and Stacey

[millennium]

It occurred to me yesterday that I have another gripe with this episode.   I was outside taking some photos in thirty-degree weather.   There was a stiff breeze and after about 20 minutes I couldn't feel my fingers anymore.   How would it have been humanly possible for Oliver to scale Mt. Swordfight in a blizzard with bare hands?

[foreverevolving]

It occurred to me yesterday that I have another gripe with this episode.   I was outside taking some photos in thirty-degree weather.   There was a stiff breeze and after about 20 minutes I couldn't feel my fingers anymore.   How would it have been humanly possible for Oliver to scale Mt. Swordfight in a blizzard with bare hands?

 

well the guy did spend 2 years on an island and supposedly at least one year in Russia.. and trust me the cold in Russia will make your 30F feel like summer. you build immunity of sorts.

Also he was constantly moving, stretching muscles and so forth… so that kept him warm

[millennium]

I realize it's folly to seek rational explanations in a comic universe; that said, as I understand it, acclimation usually comes after prolonged and continuous exposure to harsh conditions, i.e. repeated immersions in frigid water.   But once removed from that environment, the body will acclimate again to the conditions of the new environment.   You don't just pick up where you left off years earlier. 

 

Do you think Ra's, Nyssa and Maseo Sarab made the climb, too?  

[catrox14]

It's Oliver Fucking Queen, that's why.

[statsgirl]

Do you think Ra's, Nyssa and Maseo Sarab made the climb, too?  

No, the LoA knew the terrain and the easy way to get up.  Yet another reason why it was unfair, because Oliver would have been exhausted from the climb and Ra's was just up there chillin', I mean relaxing.

 

It's the lack of gloves that bothers me.  After climbing up through the snow, Oliver's fingers would have been so cold, it would have made it harder to hold the sword, and that much easier for Ra's to disarm him.

[KirkB]

My guess is only the person who makes the challenge has to make the climb. It's unfair, sure, but nobody ever said assassins had to play fair. 

[millennium]

It's Oliver Fucking Queen, that's why.

 

Ah, the customary reply to "How could Batman have survived a nuclear blast at the end of The Dark Knight Rises?"

 

(minus the Oliver Queen part, of course)

[catrox14]

Ah, the customary reply to "How could Batman have survived a nuclear blast at the end of The Dark Knight Rises?"

 

(minus the Oliver Queen part, of course)

Precisely. And for me, that's enough.

[millennium]

Well, obviously, as this episode has taught us, what's good for Batman is good for Oliver Queen.

[BkWurm1]

Ah, the customary reply to "How could Batman have survived a nuclear blast at the end of The Dark Knight Rises?"

 

(minus the Oliver Queen part, of course)

He hid in a refrigerator? 

[Danny Franks]

I suppose if you're a writer for Arrow and you run out of ideas, you just rifle through your old Batman comic book collection:

 

 

I still remember buying that issue the day it showed up on the rack at my local corner store, and I still have it in my collection, fortysomething years later.

 

I like Arrow, but poaching on Gotham turf really bugs me.

 

Can't wait until they get to this issue:

 

 

It should be an amazing piece of television.

 

He hid in a refrigerator?

 

 

Nah, refrigerators work differently in the comic book world. They're where you store the women you kill to further the men's storylines. Any refrigerator that Bale's Batman found would have a bit of Rachel Dawes in it.

Edited December 20, 2014 by Danny Franks

[millennium]

Can't wait until they get to this issue:

 

 

It should be an amazing piece of television.

 

 

 

LOL.

 

Roy: "Hey waitaminnit ...!"

[formerlyfreedom]

Episode talk? PLLEEEEEAAAASSSSEEEE?

[Oscirus]

OK, I'm still pissed over what happened to Sara, but now I'm laughing at this image that during the entire time Laurel was stupidly dragging Sara to the lair, Malcolm was just watching it the whole time on top of roof-tops, cackling and all "Wow, I can't believe this is happening! My half-assed plan is working!

 

I assume that he was breathing a sigh of relief at the fact that her and Tommy didn't curse him with grandkids.

 

I'm guessing Malcolm's plan was to get rid of the body, and use the tape just in case anybody came after him but once Laurel found the body, he had to improvise.  It was also a good opportunity to separate Oliver from Thea since there's no way that he thought that Oliver stood a chance against Raj.

 

I get Laurel's natural instinct to protect her father by not revealing that Sara's dead, but what's her end game in all this.  "Dad I got good news and bad news. The bad news Is Sara has been dead for a while, but the good news is we caught her killer :)."

 

Thea's storyline is getting weirder and weirder, the girl who was mad at her brother for keeping unnecessary secrets, kept three from her brother: her closeness to her dad, which was probably the most understandable one, the Arrow attacking her, and Sara's death. Were the writers trying to turn her into a hypocrite, or did they have a bet on how fast they could turn into an unsympathetic character?

 

Ray's transformation into a super hero would be interesting if they'd take the cute rom com crap out of his story. If you want to tell his story on the Arrow, Felicity's a fine conduit to do it through, just cut out the meet cute crap.

 

So Roy killed a cop. Are we going to do something about that storyline or is it already forgotten?

 

I agree that the goodbyes fit his relationship with the people. Strangely, both Arrow and Flash admitted that they loved their women in their lives in the same week for the opposite reasons.

 

Nice death scene I actually want to see how the writers bring Oliver back. Hopefully, they surprise me.

[tv echo]

Ringing out 2014, here's the image of Oliver from "The Climb" that I want to remember going into 2015 (and not the one of him being skewered) --- return soon!

 

Edited December 31, 2014 by tv echo

[driedfruit]

Phew, I finally caught up with the season and eh, colour me underwhelmed for most of it though it definitely did pick up over the last two episodes.

 

After a whole season of Mirakuru we're now doing mind control? Ugh. For a show so against including in special powers they're overdoing with these magic drugs. It's no fun when characters lose their agency. They could've constructed a reason for Thea to attack Sara (couldn't have been too hard given Sara's background as an assassin).

 

The guy playing Ra was awful. So flat. But overall the ending was beautifully shot.

 

I sure hope CW isn't planning on giving Ray his own spinoff. The actor is as bland as they come.  

 

And to be fair, although Green Arrow was and is very much a Batman ripoff, Batman himself is a Zorro ripoff, who in turn was a Scarlet Pimpernel ripoff, who in turn was inspired by the Count of Monte Cristo, who in turn was inspired by a real life vengeful murderer, at least if we believe Dumas.

 

 

There is no truly original story left to tell. Not since cave people. ;) 

[Nanrad]

Apparently the snow in BC is softer than it is in Ontario or Quebec so.... ;)

 

 

Except that Team Arrow couldn't find truths with the foursquare app. How anybody can look at Thea like she's such a terrible person for lying to Oliver when him and people he met 3 years ago have been lying to his family (whom he's known his whole life) is beyond me. They can't have one set of rules for themselves and another entirely for other people. They are still vigilantes, they have no orders under law or god they are doing it of their own volition and they're not somehow more justified than Thea, or Ray or The Huntress or even Laurel in secret keeping. They are all guilty of lies and they can't expect Thea to blindly trust her brother when it takes her absconding for 6months with no contact to get a tiny bit truth out of his lying, manipulative, coddling ass.

It's not the fact that Thea is lying, it's what she is lying about and the significance of her keeping it a secret. She left with Malcom because she was tired of all of the lies, which followed on the heels of her mother dying, Roy not keeping his promise, and finding out that her dad wasn't her real dad. Let's also not forget that Thea wouldn't even talk to/look at her mother because of what happened to those in the Glades. With all of that being said (and some other stuff I forgot), Thea willingly leaves with Malcom because "he's the only person who hasn't lied to her", but he is also the same person responsible for the Reckoning (or whatever) happening--you know the same thing she gave her mother hell for, and then she constantly lies to Oliver to protect Malcolm. The irony.

 

Oliver and co don't have one set of rules, Thea lying about not being in contact with Malcolm has literally put lives in danger. Thea's blind defense of Malcolm has led to Oliver going out of his way to prevent from properly handling him, which Malcom takes advantage of to advance his own agenda. Thea's not terrible, but she is misguided.

 

In almost every superhero story, the hero's and their teams keep their identities a secret to PROTECT their family and friends as well as themselves. Thea is doing neither. Now, what they are doing may not be legal, but they are doing it for the greater good. Also, family and friends knowing their secret identity, sometimes, makes it harder to moonlight as heroes.

 

I cringed so hard when Thea went after Arrow. I thought it looked so awkward. Than I laughed at her Peace Out with the MC Hammer pants. I feel so bad for Willa Holland. This is the storyline she was saddled with? A pawn in Malcolm's game. I hate it. 

 

Really disappointed Laurel didn't tell both her parents. Honestly, I decided to FF the Laurel scenes after I watched her tell Thea, stumble over why its a secret and then ask Thea not to tell Oliver. It didn't sound like it got much better either. t don't understand the writers. I feel bad for KC and PB. 

Thea and Arrow were so forced and bad, but YES!!! the Peace Out with the hammer pants. lol. And how tall is that building, what floor is she on, and where did she land? 

 

Laurel's keeping Sara's murder a secret in general IS disappointing. It would've been better if she went to the law first and saw that there wasn't anything that they could do, which would then help along her vigilante arc.I've read in another forum that Laurel is keeping it a secret because she's afraid of what her father may do, but that doesn't ring true to me. Laurel was about to tell him before he took his pills, and then stopped because of his condition. Whether or not the killer (Thea) is caught, Sara's death is still going to be devastating. Maybe even more because she was dead for so long and just about everyone, including those who never knew Sara, know about it EXCEPT FOR HIM. He's been calling his dead daughter for months while Laurel makes up lies and pretends she is alive. No matter how you spin it, Laurel looks like a shitty person in this scenario. Det. Lance deserves to know his youngest daughter died and was thrown into her original grave.

 

Ray: even if we argue that he's not a stalker, his behavior is still troublesome. I suppose I should go and read Wonderwall's post, but I'll say this first and read it later on in the day. We can argue that that Ray doesn't understand social cues, is easily excited and gets carried away, that Felicity is open to his advances, but that still doesn't erase some of his problematic behavior. 

 

1. Ray offered Felicity a job, she said no, so he bought the company and forced her to work for him. Some people compare this to Oliver, but there is a clear difference here: Felicity and Oliver knew one another and he only moved her because of their vigilante work. Yes, he should've asked her, but he wasn't trying to manipulate her into anything, but it made more sense than her going back and forth between floors whenever they needed to talk. Now, compare that to Ray: Felicity didn't know him, he then took over her boss/friend's company, and then when she turned down his job offer, bought the company that she worked at so she'd have to work for him--it may have even be implied or could be implied that he'd do that if she found a new job. Some see it as cute, I see it as off putting.

 

2. He randomly showed up to her house early in the morning. All of my bosses have/had my address, but none of them ever showed up to my place, especially without calling first. If you do not know your boss (that well), him or her randomly showing up can go from weird to straight up creepy. Ray may have been excited, but why couldn't it have waited or why didn't he call her to see if it was okay to come over? And didn't he start looking around her place too? 

 

3. Manipulation through expensive gifts. 

 

4. Pinging her cellphone. WE can excuse the first time, but the second? No. It doesn't matter if a day passed, he shouldn't be tracking her down on her phone, especially since he's trying to have a private conversation. It's one thing to do a background check on someone, to ping them to try to locate them for safety, and crime fighting, etc, but for your own personal dating life??? No. NO. NO! He didn't just ping her, he then texted her to ask her where she was since he couldn't find her at the club he tracked her down in.

 

Personally, and this is where some others and I disagree, threatening my life or not, behavior like that, IMO, is a stalker. A person following you/tracking you because it does something for them personally whether it be bringing happiness or some hate filled thing--I don't know, but if someone is following me (tracking me), even if they are't threatening me, I'd call them a stalker. Ray is simply a stalker who uses technology and his money/position to manipulate her reaction.

[Trini]

 

Thea and Arrow were so forced and bad, but YES!!! the Peace Out with the hammer pants. lol. And how tall is that building, what floor is she on, and where did she land?

Ha! I keep coming back to that scene... girl, where did you jump to??

[BkWurm1]

Personally, and this is where some others and I disagree, threatening my life or not, behavior like that, IMO, is a stalker. A person following you/tracking you because it does something for them personally whether it be bringing happiness or some hate filled thing--I don't know, but if someone is following me (tracking me), even if they are't threatening me, I'd call them a stalker. Ray is simply a stalker who uses technology and his money/position to manipulate her reaction.

 

He's not fixated on her though nor is he normally following her.  He has a couple tricks up his sleeve that leap across normal boundaries, but he isn't trying to keep a regular account of her locations or control what she does or care about who she sees.  He's not brainwashing her or manipulating her thoughts or playing on her self esteem.  He grants her an enormous amount of independence and freedom at work and never presses for an explanation even when any normal boss would demand them.  He is not a stalker because he doesn't stalk her.  She's not prey he is chasing.  He and a stalker use a few of the same tools but the stalker is using them to control and intimidate while Ray mostly goes with convenience and a dash of non threatening arrogance.   

 

I'm not advocating he should be any kind of role model, but to call this guy a stalker IMO sucks the teeth out of the word and isn't fair to those who have to deal with it in the truest sense of the word. It's an easy label to throw around but by every specific definition - Webster and legal, Ray is not a stalker. 

 

The problem IMO is that there isn't a concise word that sums Ray up and since his behavior on a few occasions has been reminiscent of the behavior of a stalker, I think people want to make it easy and just call him one. Just the act of occasionally tracking someone down does not make them a stalker.  It can still be a big personality flaw or a violation of privacy but that doesn't automatically equal stalker.  

Edited January 15, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Nanrad]

Wonder, I've heard people call him a stalker, but never used it myself. But, with this recent behavior of his, the accumulation of his behavior makes him a stalker in my eyes. And I don't think that undermines the significance of the word because he does track her, manipulates her reaction through gifts (intimidation is a form of manipulation), forcing her to work for him, etc. He isn't the worst stalker out there (I guess, we'll call him the benevolent stalker), but his behavior is problematic either way, especially if Felicity hadn't been given him the passes for his behavior like she has. Like I said, I'll go back and read your other post, but if someone pinged me to track me down for a personal conversation I said I didn't want to have, and then texted me in the club because they couldn't find me, it would be a gross violation of my privacy. 

[tv echo]

309 (The Climb) – No Oliver Queen voiceover intro.

309 (The Climb) – Laurel tells Thea that Sara is dead:
(Laurel is visiting Sara’s grave.)
Laurel: “Working too much. Sorry. I never really know what to say when I come here. I just - I wanted to wish you a merry Christmas. And tell you how much I miss you.”
Thea (approaching): “Laurel?”
Laurel: “Thea. What are you doing here?”
Thea: “I was just leaving flowers for my mom. Who were you talking to?”
Laurel: “Nobody. I just come here… sometimes.”
Thea: “Even though Sara's still alive? Laurel, what - what's wrong? Everything's fine. Sara's okay.”
Laurel: “No, Thea. Sara's dead.”
Thea: “What? What are you talking about?”
Laurel: “While you were gone… she was murdered.”
Thea: “By who?”
Laurel: “I don't know. I buried her here.”
Thea: “Why didn't you tell anybody… like at least your father, the police?”
Laurel: “No, no. Thea, no one can ever know.”
Thea: “But why?”
Laurel: “Sara, she was – uh, she was complicated. And if my father found out, it would kill him. You have to promise me that you won't tell Oliver.”
Thea: “Of course, I - I promise. I'm so sorry.”

309 (The Climb) – Felicity and Ray talk about their kiss:
Ray: "Hey! Did you know there was a cafeteria in the building? There's a cold press juice bar, organic salad station.”
Felicity: “I know. I eat there every day, along with 800 of your other employees. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm late for a meeting.”
Ray: “Wait, Felicity! Are we okay?”
Felicity: “If by ‘we,’ you mean you and me as individual entities, then yes, we are fantastic.”
Ray: “This is about the kiss.”
Felicity: “This is not about the kiss.”
Ray: “You sure? Cause it really feels like it's about the kiss. Unless it's about how I left after the kiss. I can explain.”
Felicity: “No. I can explain. It was a moment and you regret it. It's over. Now can we please pretend like it never happened and go back to being professionals? (Cell phone beeps) I have to go. Work.”
Ray: “But you're at… work.”

309 (The Climb) – Oliver tells Felicity about the League’s ultimatum:
Felicity: "What happened?"
Oliver: "Nyssa paid me a visit. The League wants Sara's killer handed over in the next 48 hours.” 
Felicity: “Why do I sense there's an ‘or else’ at the end of that sentence?” 
Diggle: “Or else they'll start killing innocent civilians.” 
Felicity: “Oh my God, two days? Caitlin has the DNA that we pulled off of the arrows that killed Sara, but the STR markers are degraded, so it's taking a little bit longer.” 
Oliver: “Felicity… It can't take any longer.” 
Diggle: “If we can't find Sara's killer in time, we're going to need a contingency plan.” 
Oliver: “I know. I don't have one.”

309 (The Climb) – Team Arrow is stunned when the DNA results indicate that Sara’s killer is Oliver:
Felicity (on phone): "But you're alright? Okay. Yes, it is coming through now. No, I'm fine. Things are just tense here. Thank you, Caitlin. Happy Holidays to you too!" (Hangs up)
Oliver (entering): "Are those the DNA results?"
Felicity: “It's the reassembled genome S.T.A.R. Labs was able to get off of the arrow that killed Sara. I need to run it against potential suspects.”
Diggle: “What database are you using?”
Felicity: “S.C.P.D. maintains a genetic markers database. Anyone's who committed a felony in the past three years. (Computer beeps) No, that - that can't be right.”
Oliver: “Who is it?”
Felicity: “It must be a mistake.”
Oliver: “Felicity! Who killed Sara?”
Felicity: “You did.”
*  *  *
Diggle: "This must be a mistake."
Felicity: “I took perspiration off the arrows that killed Sara. Two years ago when the police arrested Oliver because they thought, accurately, that he was the vigilante, they took a DNA sample. That sample is a match for 12 out of the 13 STRs. The odds of that - they're impossible.”
Oliver: “Okay, so somehow my DNA is on the arrows.”
Diggle: “Someone's setting you up, Oliver.”
Oliver: “Well, somebody with a vested interest in pitting me against the League of Assassins. It's Malcolm Merlyn.”
Diggle: “Merlyn was in Corto Maltese with Thea when this was going down."
Oliver: “Unless he wasn't. I mean, Merlyn hid successfully for two years from the police and the League. He's good at covering his tracks.”
Felicity: “So we uncover them. But it might take some time.” 
Oliver: “In less than 48 hours, the League is going to murder 50 people. We don't have time.”

309 (The Climb) – Team Arrow discover that Malcolm and Thea arrived in Starling City the night before Sara was murdered:
Felicity: "I found something. A.R.G.U.S. monitors air traffic in and out of countries of interest."
Diggle: "Corto Maltese is on that list."
Felicity: “This is a list of every commercial airliner, private jet, sea plane, and, I'm not kidding, hot air balloon that took off from Corto Maltese this past year. Look at this flight path. Private charter from Corto Maltese to Caracas, then to Cartagena, only to fly back to Caracas, and then to Tijuana.” 
Diggle: “Whoever was on that plane was working pretty hard to hide where it was going.”
Oliver: “The route ends at a private landing strip just outside Starling City. When did it land?” 
Felicity: “The night before Sara was murdered.”
(Cut to Oliver and Roy standing over a pilot, who’s on the ground.)
Unidentified Pilot: “Please! All I do is fly the plane!” 
Oliver: “Quiet! The man in this photo - did you fly him from Corto Maltese to Starling City?”
Unidentified Pilot: “No.” 
Oliver: “This time, look at the photo!”
Unidentified Pilot: “He'll kill me.” 
Oliver: “He's not here. We are.”
Unidentified Pilot: “All right, okay, yes, I flew him here. I've got security footage, you want to see?”
(Cut back to Arrowcave, where Roy hands something to Felicity.)
Felicity: “Hanukkah present?” 
Roy: “Security footage from the airfield where Merlyn landed.” 
Oliver: “Check for October seventh.”
(Oliver, Felicity, Diggle and Roy watch recorded security footage of Malcolm and Thea deplaning in Starling City.)

309 (The Climb) – Diggle suggest that the DNA results might be pointing to Thea, as Oliver’s sibling:
Diggle: "I thought you said Merlyn was keeping his distance from Thea - that he hadn't had any contact?"
Oliver: "He lied. So did she.”
Diggle: “Maybe there's something we should consider here. Maybe it wasn't your DNA, Oliver, maybe it was Thea's.”
Oliver: “What?”
Diggle: “You two are siblings. There would be overlap, maybe even enough to –“
Oliver: “Diggle, are you listening to yourself? You're suggesting that Thea killed Sara. Even if - even if she would, even if she could… Why?” 
Roy: “Well, Malcolm Merlyn is her father.” 
Felicity: “I hate to even say this.” 
Oliver: “Then don't.” 
Felicity: “Oliver. I know how much you love your sister, but we have to look at the facts. The virtual autopsy I did on Sara - I thought Roy might have stabbed her because the trajectory wasn't consistent with that of an archer of average height.” 
Diggle: “You weren't considering a killer of Thea's size.” 
Oliver: “Enough, both of you! My sister did not kill Sara. The DNA on the arrows is mine because Malcolm Merlyn put it there.” 
(Felicity’s cell phone beeps. It’s Ray calling her.)

309 (The Climb) – Ray tells Felicity about his dead fiancée:
Ray (on phone): “Hey, uh, we need to talk, so I came here.”
Felicity: “Here where?”
Ray (on phone): “Where you are. I might have pinged your phone… again.”
(Felicity sees Ray in Verdant surveillance footage. Cut to Verdant main floor.) 
Felicity: "I thought I was pretty clear when I said I didn't want to talk about this."
Ray: “You were. But you were also pretty wrong when you said I regretted kissing you. I can't imagine there's a man on the planet who would ever regret kissing you.”
Felicity: “Well, I can think of one.” 
Ray: “But I am sorry about the way I reacted. When I kissed you, I felt guilty.”
Felicity: “Oh, my God, you're cheating on someone.” 
Ray: “No. Her name is Anna, and we were engaged. Last spring, the night those men took over the city, we ran into a few. We tried to escape, but we couldn't. I tried to fight them, but I couldn't. I wasn't strong enough. I - they broke my leg and went after her, but I couldn't save her. And I watched them… as they broke her neck.” 
Felicity: “Ray, I am so sorry.” 
Ray: “Anna was supposed to be the last woman I ever kissed. And she was, until suddenly I was kissing you.”

309 (The Climb) - Laurel tells her mother Dinah that Sara is dead:
Laurel: "I'm great. Work's great. I've just been really busy."
Dinah: "Something's happened."
Laurel: "What? No. Nothing's happened.”
Dinah: “It's Sara, isn’t it? When I mentioned her earlier, you seemed so… broken.”
Laurel: “Mom, Sara's fine. She's just being Sara.”
Dinah: “There are few things as powerful as a mother's intuition. You are hiding something. I know it. Just like I was the only one who knew that Sara didn't die on that boat. I had this feeling that I would see her again. And right now, that feeling is gone. She's dead, isn’t she?”
Laurel: “Mom, listen to me. Sara, she was involved with some very, very dangerous people. This has to remain a secret, At least until we figure out exactly what happened.”
Dinah: “I don't understand. Doesn't your father know?”
Laurel: “If he knew about Sara, he couldn't take it. And I can't lose anyone else.”

309 (The Climb) – Oliver doesn’t believe that Thea killed Sara:
Diggle: "Where you been?"
Oliver: "I went to see Thea. She lied to me… again, but she didn't kill Sara.”
Felicity: “Oliver.”
Oliver: “I looked her in the eyes, Felicity. These are eyes that I have known my entire life. She could lie to me about Merlyn and spending time with him, but she could never do this.” 
Diggle: “Oliver, you are one of the smartest men I have ever known, but you have a blind spot when it comes to your family.” 
Oliver: “Not this time –“
Diggle: “First your mother, then your father, and now Thea.” 
Oliver: “That's enough, Diggle!” 
Diggle: “You know she lied to you, Oliver!” 
Felicity: “Both of you, stop! Oliver, I can't imagine how difficult this must be for you, but John is right. Thea lied.” 
Oliver: “She lied about Merlyn! But Sara… I don't want to believe that she can do something like this.” 
Felicity: “Which is why you shouldn't be the one asking the questions.”

309 (The Climb) – After discovering that Malcolm drugged Thea into killing Sara, Oliver decides to fight Ra’s al Ghul in order to save Thea from the League’s vengeance:
Oliver: "Thea was always so kind - the kindest person I've ever known. My sister wasn't born a killer. Malcolm Merlyn made her one, and I let it happen."
Felicity: "No, you didn't. When it comes to your family, you always place the blame on yourself, and this is not your fault."
Diggle: "She's right, Oliver. Throw Malcolm in front of Ra's. Let the League sort this out."
Oliver: "Merlyn has a video. He made contingencies."
Roy: “Oliver, if you fight Ra's al Ghul, he'll kill you.” 
Oliver: “No, he won't. During the Undertaking, Merlyn told me that I couldn't win, because I didn't know what I was fighting for. Now I do. I'm fighting for Thea.”

309 (The Climb) - Laurel promises her mother Dinah that she will make Sara's killer pay:
Dinah: "You remember when the two of you were little? You'd play dress-up. One day I overheard you and Sara. You were pretending to be grown-up versions of yourselves. That day, you and your sister, you had your own families. Careers.”
Laurel: “I was a cop, just like Dad. And Sara –“
Dinah: “Was a doctor. She wanted to heal people. She deserves more than this.”
Laurel: “Mom, can I tell you something? Whoever did this to Sara, I am going to find them no matter what it takes. And I am going to make them pay.”
Dinah: “Then you make them pay. And you make them suffer.”

309 (The Climb) – Ray shows Felicity his A.T.O.M. exosuit design and asks her to help him protect the people of Starling City:
Ray: "Guess who just designed a microprocessor with a SPECint score just north of 9,000?"
Felicity: “Ray… what are you doing with Queen Consolidated? Why did you buy it?”
Ray: “Because it was for sale.” 
Felicity: “My life is a little more complicated than I let on. Suffice it to say, I have gotten very good at keeping secrets, particularly the kind of secrets someone like you keeps. Someone in pain.” 
Ray: “Wasn't easy for me to tell you about Anna.” 
Felicity: “You told me about Anna, but you didn't tell me the truth about what it is you're doing. So tell me, or I walk.” 
Ray: “I can't tell you. I have to show you. The dawn of the computer age, developers thought the only way a machine could process information as fast as a human brain was to build a mainframe the size of Texas. But one developer realized that the only way to reduce heat and power consumption was to bring the components closer together. Which meant making them smaller. But why stop at computers? What if it could take other things, like, say, all of the military-grade technology in Applied Sciences, and make it smaller, too? So small that it can fit in the palm of my hand. I can help a lot of people that way.” 
Felicity: “I don't understand.”
Ray: “This will help.” (Pulls up blue schematic of A.T.O.M. exosuit.)
Felicity: “Whoa. What is it?” 
Ray: “O-M-A-C is a Queen Consolidated designation. But I'm kinda partial to A.T.O.M. Advanced Technology Operating Mechanism. A.T.O.M.”
Felicity: “What are you going to use it for?” 
Ray: “To protect the people of this city. And I want you to help me.” 
Felicity: “Why does this keep happening to me?” 

309 (The Climb) – Oliver tells Felicity he loves her for the first time (for real and not as part of a scheme to fool Slade Wison) right before he leaves to duel Ra’s al Ghul to the death:
Diggle: "Oliver."
Oliver: "John, I have to do this."
Diggle: “I know. I'd just rather die than let you go it alone.”
Oliver: “Not this time. (To Roy) Take care of Thea.”
Roy: “Absolutely.”
Felicity (entering): “I'm sorry. Something came up… Oh.”
Diggle: “Let's give them a minute.” (He and Roy leave) 
Felicity: “So you're going?” 
Oliver: “Mm-hmm.” 
Felicity: “To Nanda Parbat?” 
Oliver: “No, it's a neutral site. It'll be fine. I'll come back. Thea will be okay.”
Felicity: “I wish that sounded more convincing.  And I wish you wouldn't go, but I know you better, so I'm not going to ask you to stay.”
Oliver: “I appreciate that.”
Felicity: “But there is one thing I need to ask you to do. And you're not going to want to.” 
Oliver: “Well, if it's you asking, I'll do it.” 
Felicity: “Kill him. You have to kill Ra's al Ghul. This is a duel, Oliver, with one of the most dangerous men that has ever walked the earth.” 
Oliver: “I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't think I can win.” 
Felicity: “I don't doubt that. I don't doubt that you can beat him. I am terrified that you won't kill him. Because that's not who you are anymore. And I am so afraid that Ra's al Ghul is going to use your humanity against you.” 
Oliver: “Felicity, I honestly don't know if I'm a killer anymore. But I do know two things - the first is that whoever I am, I am someone that will do whatever – whatever - it takes to save my sister.” 
(Oliver kisses Felicity on the forehead and starts to walk away.)
Felicity: “And the second thing?” 
Oliver: “I love you.” 

309 (The Climb) – Oliver duels Ra’s al Ghul and loses:
Ra’s al Ghul: “You should take pride. You survived longer than most. Don't be afraid, my son. Death comes for us all. We can only evade it so long. Consider this an honorable exit.” (Stabs Oliver through the chest) [Speaks Arabic]
(After Ra’s stabs Oliver, Oliver’s last thoughts before falling off the cliff are of his parents first, then Thea, and finally Felicity.)

Edited February 20, 2020 by tv echo