S03.E09: The Climb

[Ceylon5]

I think the word stalker is being used incorrectly here.  For a start, stalkers are, by definition, obsessed with the object of their stalking.  I haven't seen any sign that Ray is single-mindedly obsessed with Felicity (quite the opposite, actually, given that he bailed on their kiss).  Second, stalkers spend a lot of time following their victims around without the victim being aware of it.  We've never seen any indication that Ray sits outside Felicity's house watching her, taking her picture when she's unaware, or anything of that nature.  If they show us a creepy crazy wall with tons of pictures taken of Felicity all over the place, then I'll revise my assessment, but I strongly doubt that Ray has a crazy wall for Felicity or that he's ever followed her without making his presence known to her.  Also, if he had been following her around on a regular basis, he wouldn't have needed to ping her phone to know she was at Verdant, because he'd already know she spends all her time there; he'd also know about Oliver.  (She's lucky he isn't a real stalker.)  It's actually a little surprising that he's made no effort to find out what she does when she's not with him (e.g. by asking her), given that her behaviour around him would make even the most switched-off person wonder what on earth she was getting up to on the side.

 

My diagnosis of Ray is that he's one of those impatient no-filter action-oriented people who acts on things as he thinks of them (like a kid).  Want to talk to Felicity right now?  Ping her phone, go to her, talk to her.  He openly tells her that he pinged her phone; he's not trying to sneak up on her and watch her when she's not aware of him.  He wanted to talk, so he went to talk.  That can be an unattractive trait, sure, but it's not the same as stalking.  Some people are annoying and persistent that way, forcing other people to talk about stuff when they really don't want to (which is not always a bad thing).  Maybe he's putting his own need to explain ahead of her stated desire to drop the subject, but that's just good old-fashioned selfishness.  Bottom line: obnoxious behaviour is not the same thing as stalking.  Stalking is very passive-aggressive (repeatedly calling and hanging up, for instance).  Ray seems quite the opposite of passive-aggressive; he's more full-frontal assault, which is why he showed up at Verdant and only then called Felicity.  Given that a few weeks seem to have gone by since the kiss, the fact that they're only addressing it now, aside from a writing/timeline failure, indicates that Ray is only dealing with it now because of Felicity suddenly being all annoyed with him.  Before that, he didn't really seem too worried about it at all.  Ray is a "see the problem, fix the problem" kind of guy.  Personally, I prefer this to Oliver's passive-aggressive crap, even if they are writing him poorly and should know better than to persist with the phone-pinging and so on.

 

There is a sort of karmic justice to Felicity getting her phone pinged, though.  All those times she's tracked people with her hacking, phone pinging, etc. coming back to haunt her.

 

The plus side of Ray forcing the issue is that Felicity now knows why he pulled away from the kiss.  Given that every guy who kisses her immediately runs away, I'm glad she at least knows why Ray did it.  She must be getting a complex.

[looptab]

I just noticed in the forehead kiss scene she's freaking clinging to his shirt-you don't see their hands but you see his shirt being pulled down. Gahhhhhh stop now please

[thuganomics85]

Fine, maybe Ray isn't a stalker.  But, there is something about this that is rubbing me the wrong way.  I'm not sure if it's the writing or how Brandon Roth is playing the character, but while I'm 100% sure that they want me to find him "amusing" and "charming" when he pulls shit like this, I just want to see someone smack him.  Hard.  And, no lame sappy story about his fiancee dying is going to change my mind.  Even if it's not Felicity, I just want him to, at least one episode, pick the wrong person to push his "boundaries" on, and realize that it behavior can cause things to go south quickly.  But, with these guys, he is probably going to be rewarded by becoming a hero and maybe even getting the gal.

Edited December 11, 2014 by thuganomics85

[BkWurm1]

A minute ago

 

I think the word stalker is being used incorrectly here.  For a start, stalkers are, by definition, obsessed with the object of their stalking.  I haven't seen any sign that Ray is single-mindedly obsessed with Felicity (quite the opposite, actually, given that he bailed on their kiss).  Second, stalkers spend a lot of time following their victims around without the victim being aware of it.  We've never seen any indication that Ray sits outside Felicity's house watching her, taking her picture when she's unaware, or anything of that nature.  If they show us a creepy crazy wall with tons of pictures taken of Felicity all over the place, then I'll revise my assessment, but I strongly doubt that Ray has a crazy wall for Felicity or that he's ever followed her without making his presence known to her.  Also, if he had been following her around on a regular basis, he wouldn't have needed to ping her phone to know she was at Verdant, because he'd already know she spends all her time there; he'd also know about Oliver.  (She's lucky he isn't a real stalker.)  It's actually a little surprising that he's made no effort to find out what she does when she's not with him (e.g. by asking her), given that her behaviour around him would make even the most switched-off person wonder what on earth she was getting up to on the side.

 

I was just going to say something similar. 

Definition:  Stalking is unwanted or obsessive attention by an individual or group toward another person. Stalking behaviors are related to harassment and intimidation and may include following the victim in person or monitoring them. The word stalking is used, with some differing meanings, in psychology and psychiatry and also in some legal jurisdictions as a term for a criminal offense.

 

According to a 2002 report by the National Center for Victims of Crime, "virtually any unwanted contact between two people that directly or indirectly communicates a threat or places the victim in fear can be considered stalking,"[1] although in practice the legal standard is usually somewhat stricter.

 

I think it's important to remember that while stalking can include behavior such as following or tracking it has to come with a threat or intimidation or produce fear.  The first time Felicity's phone was pinged she felt harassed but I've never seen her in fear or act threatened or even intimidated.  Ray can be a pest but he's not a stalker.

 

In the real world, it is important to look for warning signs but Felicity did see the warning signs and she figured out that she didn't have to worry about him becoming a stalker.  The writers could have done a better job proving how not evil or obsessive Palmer actually is, but then the writers are always stingy on character development.  They have given us more non controlling moments in regards to Ray and Felicity than stalkery ones though. 

Fine, maybe Ray isn't a stalker.  But, there is something about this that is rubbing me the wrong way.  I'm not sure if it's the writing or how Brandon Roth is playing the character, but while I'm 100% sure that they want me to find him "amusing" and "charming" when he pulls shit like this, I just want to see someone smack him.  Hard.  And, no lame sappy story about his fiancee dying is going to change my mind.  Even if it's not Felicity, I just want him to, at least one episode, pick the wrong person to push his "boundaries" on, and realize that it behavior can cause things to go south quickly.  But, with these guys, he is probably going to be rewarded by becoming a hero and maybe even getting the gal.

He might not be a stalker but it's still really dickish behavior.  Someone should smack him, I just don't think Felicity should be afraid of him. 

[Kromm]

Also, if they are using the Lazarus Pit on Oliver, will he come back a bit mental? 

He should (and the show would certainly try to take advantage of that).

 

I see a reversal, with Roy having taken over the role of The Arrow, and Oliver coming back nutty coo-coo.

[bluebonnet]

.

 

The writers don't see what Ray is doing as stalking and honestly, while his actions are something that a stalker might do, that does not automatically make him a stalker.

The writers can be wrong.  The directors can be wrong.  To use an example, TPTB claimed up and down that Jaime did not rape Cersei in a specific scene of Game of Thrones.  Perhaps the original intent was that there was no rape.  What actually showed up was rape.  Perhaps the intent is that Ray is an endearing eccentric dude who has issues with boundaries and such.  What's actually showing up is creepy stalker.  Very slight changes in dialogue would completely remedy this.  

 

And no matter how much one twists the definition, Ray is exhibiting stalking behavior.  He's come to her place of work, he's bought her place of work in an effort to get her to work more closely with him, he's shown up at her home uninvited, he's twice pinged her cell phone in order to track her down.  It doesn't really matter that he's happy go lucky or that he doesn't have a desire to physically harm Felicity.  He's still exhibiting some pretty concerning stalking behavior.  

 

My last thoughts on this subject because I don't want to feel such rage about it, and I can no longer participate in discussions defending of this sort of behavior.  This show - this episode in particular- has become so disappointing in it's treatment of women.  

[Kromm]

If Oliver can survive that, then they can bring Sara back. She can be alive from a couple Arrows if Oliver can survive that attack and fall.

I think the issue is that the Lazarus Pit has to be used soon after death--the cause of the death is less important.  So for one to have been used, the show has to insist there's been no time gap.

[BkWurm1]

And no matter how much one twists the definition, Ray is exhibiting stalking behavior.  He's come to her place of work, he's bought her place of work in an effort to get her to work more closely with him, he's shown up at her home uninvited, he's twice pinged her cell phone in order to track her down.  It doesn't really matter that he's happy go lucky or that he doesn't have a desire to physically harm Felicity.  He's still exhibiting some pretty concerning stalking behavior.

 

But without the threat it isn't stalking behavior.  It's just weird and annoying.   He showed up at her house uninvited but people do that without it being a crime and he did it once because he was super excited about some idea he had and she rolled with it.  Both times that he's tracked her down he's said what he wants (with no threat made toward her) and gone away.  He showed up at her work and then later did all manner of strange over the stop head hunting things but while excessive and extreme, It was confined to a business offer and he has not ever done anything invasive on that scale again and he's never butted his head into her personal private life even at times when most people would have.

 

I'm just trying to make sure the forest is seen rather than just a few rotting trees.     

I think the issue is that the Lazarus Pit has to be used soon after death--the cause of the death is less important.  So for one to have been used, the show has to insist there's been no time gap.

Apparently Batman keeps one in the Batcave.  maybe they should head over to Gotham. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

How was Matt Nable as Ra's?

He is not that overtly menacing. He's a great dueler though. I think he's a silent force.

I must be really tired because I read that as "I think he's a silent fart," so I thought you meant he was one of those SBDs.

[ban1o]

Yeah I don't think Ray is a stalker. I think it's being used incorrectly and he's not a danger to her at all. He's just socially awkward and probably doesn't realize pinging her phone in not a good thing to do. If he was an actual stalker he would know where Felicity was already considering she spends all her time at verdant but it was obviously new info to him so he isn't stalking her. he seems very uncontrolling and just socially awkward. Also Felicity hasn't raised any huge objection to what Ray does so she obviously isn't feeling threatened so I don't really get how it's stalking.

[Ariah]

I think the reason why Felicity didn't say "I love you" back is partly because she was too shocked to do anything - she didn't expect him to say this in such a straightforward manner, so casually, as if it has been the most natural thing in the world to say. She might have hoped for it, but was not expecting it.

 

And then it came and knoecked her out, left her standing there, knowing it may be the last time she hears it from him (because he will die - she knew this at that point. She knew this subconsciously). Yet another thought might have crossed her mind there and then: if she says "i love you" he could stay. Or he could be too unfocused. She can mess things up by telling him she loves him, because she herself can break down and cry, show him her weakness and upset him - and because of her he won't go clear-headed into the duel.

 

Oliver, on the other hand - I don't think he intended to say goodbye to Felicity at all. She happened to walk into him leaving. He wouldn't stay and wait for her. But she arrived just in time, and he wanted to go by casually - just play the macho, say he'll be back soon... Which, naturally, didn't work with her. She took him by surprise with her "kill him" request.

I also don't think he intended to profess his love there, in the foundry. It just sort of happened - and he was happy he said it, as if a weight has been lifted. He didn't expect her to answer - because in his mind, she is with Ray. And he's ok with it. He didn't go for the kiss, because she's taken. But this little selfish streak in him made him confess - to let her know how he feels without the maybes.

 

I'm probably overthinking this...

[Ceylon5]

Taking the phone-pinging out of the equation, because that was dumb and clearly causes some viewers to melt down at the very thought, I actually don't fault Ray's behaviour in this situation.  Felicity was angry and hurt because he walked out in the middle of a kiss with no explanation.  Instead of dealing with the situation head on, she went the passive-aggressive route of being all pissy with him.  That left the ball in his court.  He'd been quite happily pretending there hadn't been a kiss and acting like nothing had changed (which Felicity later professed to want, but her angry behaviour belied her words), but because she was acting the way she was, she forced him to confront the issue head on.  Only, when he did, she still refused to let him explain and walked out on him in the middle of the conversation (and her excuses are getting worse and worse - telling him she had to go and work???).  So, after letting it fester for another day, he decided that enough was enough and that he needed to clear the air and sort things out with her (and her angry little "Hi" when she answered his call indicates that this was still very necessary).  He knows he screwed up and he's trying to make it right.  So he pushes her, gets her to hear him out and eventually (finally!) gets to explain.  And as explanations go for why a guy would run out in the middle of a kiss, his was a perfectly understandable one (side-note to the writers: get some new ideas, please, because we're super bored and fed up with the dead girlfriend/wife/daughter/mother back-story for every other guy on TV).

 

Felicity, having also watched TV, naturally assumed that a guy who had lost his fiancée would now have some sort of secret grief-driven need for action and demanded to know the specifics of Ray's plan of action.  To his credit, he simply told her.  I got the impression that the way forward for these two now relates to their work, both official and unofficial, and not to anything romantic.  This episode was so poorly written that I could be misinterpreting completely, but I felt like they were putting the whole romantic angle to rest and opening the vigilante angle instead.  Cue Felicity's sigh.  She needs a "Been there, done that" T-shirt.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Ceylon5

[Angel12d]

So, the more I think about the Olicity goodbye scene, the more I like it. It was simple, to the point. Oliver sounded so sincere and sure of his feelings and when he said 'I love you' my heart became all fluttery. Lol. It wasn't a gasp out loud moment like the s2 finale but just this quiet surety in an episode of uncertainty. Yeah. I like it a lot. Sometimes less is more.

 

I also think I'm ok that Felicity didn't say anything back yet because she knew that he was leaving, her words wouldn't change anything, and to get Felicity to say those important words she will need to feel like Oliver isn't going to leave anymore. When he manages to convince her that he loves her and wants to be with her, that he's not going anywhere, then she will feel safe enough to tell him how she feels. I can wait for that. I think! I mean, sure, ideal scenario I would have loved her to say something because he was going off to near-certain death but a) I don't think anyone believed he was going to die and b) nothing is really lining up to let that happen yet. 

 

I also don't hold Oliver's 'I love you' against him. I've seen some grumbles about it on tumblr, that he was dangling another maybe, but I think he just wanted her to know his feelings for certain before he died. I don't want to say there was a spring to his step when he left but there seemed to be a weightlessness to his body language after he told her. Like he wasn't hiding from it anymore. It was one of the only things he was sure of and that probably felt good to him. And if that's what he needed to do before he went up against Ra's then so be it.

 

As for Thea, it's a very difficult situation that I'm split about tbh. I don't like that she seems to have forgotten that her father is a mass murderer who has no remorse for killing 500 people. She hates that everyone has lied to her but is fine with mass murder? No. It doesn't add up. 

 

Also, I know she was brainwashed and had no real idea what she was doing but she did kill Sara and there has to be some repercussions for that. And I mean repercussions in the sense that she should struggle with what she's done, even though she has no knowledge of doing it. That's going to be a big thing to deal with. How do you even begin to get your head around the fact that you're a murderer but you don't remember? That's a complete mind fuck. And I want to see how she deals with that. I want to see how she reacts when she finds out Malcolm drugged and brainwashed her. The one person who said he wouldn't lie to her has really been lying since the start. I'm definitely interested in the fall out here.

[patchwork]

I'll take magic herbs that have been part of the show since season one over introducing the Lazarus Pit. Hinting at it's existence with Ra's age is one thing but using it to bring Oliver back to life is just opening up a can of worms this writing team is in no way up to dealing with.

 

Diggle and Thea's goodbyes were lacking but I liked Roy's and Felicity's. Her whispering "I love you too" would have made it perfect.

 

I've been an advocate of the brainwashed Thea Theory over in the Spoiler thread but I hope they do something better with it in the later half of the season because so far it's all about Oliver's manpain and it's not like he needs more of that. Interesting that The Flash has Joe telling Barry he's suffered more pain than any man he knows and Diggle tells Oliver he's the smartest man Diggle knows, Oliver and Barry need to do swapsies with those titles.

 

Ray...I don't care, please just go away. I might not like Laurel but at least I don't feel like her scenes have been cut from a Black Canary pilot.   

[Gwen-Stacys]

I think...the only part of this episode I liked (outside of Thea, Laurel, Maseo, Malcom (he's EVIL, but he's so f*cking good at it), and Ray/Felicity) was the fact that Oliver got his ass beat after everyon was going around telling him that he could actually beat Ra's.

 

Batman can barely beat Ra's.

 

And Batman is both badass and a disturbed master strategist.

 

It was very heavy handed and very telling the way everyone else seemed so confident in Oliver's abilities. Even Malcom who should know better. They all but telegraphed that Oliver was going to get his ass kicked and be Lazarus Pitted. I think I rolled my eyes so hard I gave myself a headache.

I think it's because us internet users know that Oliver will be back in episode 13 ;) I'm sure people who are none the wiser would be all "WHAT THE FUCKKK" right now. 

 

Also, if they are using the Lazarus Pit on Oliver, will he come back a bit mental? 

 

I feel like most people off of the internet watch Arrow because they're somewhat familiar with the DC universe. Like, they'd know about the Lazurus Pit and they'd know where this story is going because TTB are essentially giving Arrow's Oliver Batman's story lines. Oliver, in the comics, deals with the League, but I don't think he ever dealt with Nyssa or Ra's. There's a reason, I think, we have a Nyssa and not a Talia (which would make more sense) since Talia is Batman's baby momma. DC will only let them do so much. Like how Smallville never had a Batman (even though Batman and Superman are closer than Superman and The Green Arrow). Which is another reason I feel like Felicity may be fridged at some point for more Ollie manpain (somewhere around the series finale). And that's because DC will only let them do/change so much.

[apinknightmare]

This show angers me quite often, and I'm disappointed with the way things have unfolded this season, last night included. But I just keep thinking about Oliver shaking Digg's hand, and giving Roy a hug, and the way he looked at Felicity after he kissed her forehead and the lightness to him after he simply told her he loved her (like it was the only thing he was sure of, as Angel12d wrote above). And I think about his face while he was kneeling on that cliff and how utterly surprised he looked that he lost, and all the faces that flashed through his mind as he was dying and I legit tear up. Oliver Queen makes me feel things, I'm just so invested in him. I'm glad that hasn't changed, and I just hope the rest of it gets better during the back half of the season.

[paigow]

The Flash will catch Oliver - no messy fractures. Oliver's flesh will catch fire, thereby cauterizing his fresh wounds.

[Morrigan2575]

Which is another reason I feel like Felicity may be fridged at some point for more Ollie manpain (somewhere around the series finale). And that's because DC will only let them do/change so much.

 

Well yeah I mean DC wouldn't want the character they just re-introduced into the Main 52 Continuity which is now totally based on the Arrow version of said DC character instead of the original Firestorm supporting character to in anyway interfere with the comic continuity they just totally wiped out 3 years ago by resetting The Black Canary to Dinah Drake and totally wiping out any history between Green Arrow/Black Canary.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[dtissagirl]

 Which is another reason I feel like Felicity may be fridged at some point for more Ollie manpain (somewhere around the series finale). And that's because DC will only let them do/change so much.

 

This is nitpicking, but DC added Felicity to the Green Arrow comics three months ago, so technically Felicity on Arrow is not at all a change anymore. They changed the comics to fit the TV show.

 

ETA: or what Morrigan said 35 seconds before I posted.

 

 

Upon rewatch, I'll be tinfoiling a bit:

 

1. I think Thea is not just brainwashed to forget she killed Sara, I think she's been brainwashed 100% of the time. The lies she's telling Oliver, even about the bird hitting the window, I don't know, it all sounded to me like there's some deep programming going on there that if anything relates to the stuff she doesn't know, she *really doesn't know it*. Like she's not siding up with Malcolm so much as she's been completely programmed to defend/support him because mind control. They went there, so I'm going further.

 

2. I still really think Oliver was so completely nonchalant about oh yeah, I'm gonna climb a frozen mountain without gloves and go up against a dude who's killed a gajillion people just because he could BECAUSE I HAVE A SECRET PLAN. Because these writers love their gotchas! , and Oliver getting shish kabobed is only half of a gotcha.

Edited December 11, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Morrigan2575]

This is nitpicking, but DC added Felicity to the Green Arrow comics three months ago, so technically Felicity on Arrow is not at all a change anymore. They changed the comics to fit the TV show.

I feel a jinx!  Is required for this one :D

[apinknightmare]

I think...the only part of this episode I liked (outside of Thea, Laurel, Maseo, Malcom (he's EVIL, but he's so f*cking good at it), and Ray/Felicity) was the fact that Oliver got his ass beat after everyon was going around telling him that he could actually beat Ra's.

Batman can barely beat Ra's.

And Batman is both badass and a disturbed master strategist.

It was very heavy handed and very telling the way everyone else seemed so confident in Oliver's abilities. Even Malcom who should know better. They all but telegraphed that Oliver was going to get his ass kicked and be Lazarus Pitted. I think I rolled my eyes so hard I gave myself a headache

I don't know that they thought he was definitely going to beat Ra's necessarily, but what would be the point of making him doubt himself when he was determined to go off and fight? But yeah, it seems like there was some overconfidence at play, although once Oliver comes back from being mostly/completely dead, it's good that he'll have a better idea of what they're dealing with.

Edited December 11, 2014 by apinknightmare

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

I haven't read through all of the posts because I came to a screeching halt when the topic of stalking came up.

It isn't stalking just because someone feels threatened nor does Ray have to be sitting outside her apartment while she sleeps. Stalking doesn't always present physical danger. I was stalked by a guy who I thought was a friend. We hung out in groups and volunteered together. I never felt I was in danger because all he did was stick close to me in social settings. Fast forward three months and I am speeding down a highway to get away from him while he is attempting to follow me home.

Ray 's behavior is not acceptable. Eccentricity doesn't give you a free pass to hack in order to show up where someone is. Even if Ray has no romantic intentions towards Felicity, his behavior is wrong. I wouldn't allow anyone - boss, friend, lover, cashier, cab driver, co-worker, etc - to behave as Ray is. It isn't romantic, endearing, eccentric, or cute. He is crossing lines and I wouldn't accept it if Oliver was doing it either.

ETA. Sexual harassment doesn't have to make the harassed uncomfortable. It only has to make someone witnessing it uncomfortable. I would say the same thought applies here.

Edited December 11, 2014 by AnalyzeAndCritique

[Angel12d]

And I think about his face while he was kneeling on that cliff and how utterly surprised he looked that he lost, and all the faces that flashed through his mind as he was dying and I legit tear up. Oliver Queen makes me feel things, I'm just so invested in him. I'm glad that hasn't changed, and I just hope the rest of it gets better during the back half of the season.

 

Those flashbacks to his parents and Thea and Felicity were incredibly moving, I agree. That was rated a 9 to me. I'm so glad we weren't spoiled for that. I really didn't see it coming. I never thought they'd go there so pointedly with Olicity. 

 

I've never been so invested in Oliver's happiness as I am now. That's one thing this season has done right. I want so much happiness for him even when he makes questionable choices and I want to shake some sense into him. I'm rooting for him here whereas last season I was just like 'Dude, you're annoying me. Get it together.' 

[Primetimer]

The biggest question of the season is finally answered: yes, Arrow will still take his shirt off when he has to. (Also there's a lot of plot-related stuff.)

Read the story

[kayma]

I loved everything with Oliver and was absolutely shocked at the ending. I didn't think he could win but didn't know how he'd get out of it. I'm not a comics reader and kind of wish I hadn't read this thread with all the ideas because I'm so impatiently waiting to see how they keep him alive.

 

I'm intrigued by Thea and her story line. I could do with a little more Diggle and a little less of Felicity's boss.

 

I thought this was a great episode. I just don't think too much when this show is on and fast forward through Laurel, so it all worked for me. I'm still shocked over the duel and Oliver dying.

[Gwen-Stacys]

 

This is nitpicking, but DC added Felicity to the Green Arrow comics three months ago, so technically Felicity on Arrow is not at all a change anymore. They changed the comics to fit the TV show.

 

ETA: or what Morrigan said 35 seconds before I posted.

 

Oh okay. I'll admit that I don't read GA, so my bad. It doesn't surprise me though, comics are trying to manuever themselves to fit the movies 

(a la the whole debaccle about the Maximoff twins changing history so they're

not Magnetos kids anymore...or whatever's going on with that),

why not the tv shows too?

I don't know that they thought he was definitely going to beat Ra's necessarily, but what would be the point of making him doubt himself when he was determined to go off and fight? But yeah, it seems like there was some overconfidence at play, although once Oliver comes back from being mostly/completely dead, it's good that he'll have a better idea of what they're dealing with.

I understand that, but, like you said, Oliver seemed oddly sure of himself. YMMV but yea. I also lol'd at Oliver climbing the mountain with no gloves. His fingers would've been semi-immobile IRL.

 

As long as he still can't beat him (still bitter they showed him holding his own with Nyssa a few episodes back, then she's randomly able to fend off both him and Malcom at the same time, but whatever), I'm cool with it. And he better come back mildly unhinged.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Gwen-Stacys

[Password]

Allow me to hug this entire post, especially the capslocked part.

Those flashbacks to his parents and Thea and Felicity were incredibly moving, I agree. That was rated a 9 to me. I'm so glad we weren't spoiled for that. I really didn't see it coming. I NEVER THOUGHT THEY'D GO THERE SO POINTEDLY WITH OLICITY.

I've never been so invested in Oliver's happiness as I am now. That's one thing this season has done right. I want so much happiness for him even when he makes questionable choices and I want to shake some sense into him. I'm rooting for him here whereas last season I was just like 'Dude, you're annoying me. Get it together.'

[apinknightmare]

 

This is nitpicking, but DC added Felicity to the Green Arrow comics three months ago, so technically Felicity on Arrow is not at all a change anymore. They changed the comics to fit the TV show.

 

ETA: or what Morrigan said 35 seconds before I posted.

 

 

Upon rewatch, I'll be tinfoiling a bit:

 

1. I think Thea is not just brainwashed to forget she killed Sara, I think she's been brainwashed 100% of the time. The lies she's telling Oliver, even about the bird hitting the window, I don't know, it all sounded to me like there's some deep programming going on there that if anything relates to the stuff she doesn't know, she *really doesn't know it*. Like she's not siding up with Malcolm so much as she's been completely programmed to defend/support him because mind control. They went there, so I'm going further.

 

2. I still really think Oliver was so completely nonchalant about oh yeah, I'm gonna climb a frozen mountain without gloves and go up against a dude who's killed a gajillion people just because he could BECAUSE I HAVE A SECRET PLAN. Because these writers love their gotchas! , and Oliver getting shish kabobed is only half of a gotcha.

 

Regarding 2: I would actually enjoy another gotcha where we find out that Nyssa and Oliver or Maseo and Oliver (or all three) had a meeting and worked out some kind of contingency in case he got skewered and fell off a cliff. I want this so badly, and I usually hate gotchas, too.

[KirkB]

The fact Malcolm drugged Thea to get her to kill Sara puts a whole new spin on his relationship with her. If he was so willing to do that, there's a good chance he has been drugging her this whole time to make her compliant. Thea's unwavering loyalty to Malcolm and ability to so coldly lie to Oliver seems a little weird and maybe even out of character until you taken into account the possibility he's been drugging/brainwashing her all along. Which, given the fact he is her father, is creepy on a level it's kind of hard to comprehend.

[patchwork]

The fact Malcolm drugged Thea to get her to kill Sara puts a whole new spin on his relationship with her. If he was so willing to do that, there's a good chance he has been drugging her this whole time to make her compliant. Thea's unwavering loyalty to Malcolm and ability to so coldly lie to Oliver seems a little weird and maybe even out of character until you taken into account the possibility he's been drugging/brainwashing her all along. Which, given the fact he is her father, is creepy on a level it's kind of hard to comprehend.

 

I hope this is where the storyline is going but I fear if it does it'll be about how much it hurts Oliver to see his little sister used like that rather than Thea reacting to being brainwashed. 

[Enero]

The fact Malcolm drugged Thea to get her to kill Sara puts a whole new spin on his relationship with her. If he was so willing to do that, there's a good chance he has been drugging her this whole time to make her compliant. Thea's unwavering loyalty to Malcolm and ability to so coldly lie to Oliver seems a little weird and maybe even out of character until you taken into account the possibility he's been drugging/brainwashing her all along. Which, given the fact he is her father, is creepy on a level it's kind of hard to comprehend.

 

Yep! This is just what I was coming here to say. I know that Thea has been through a lot and has had to deal with a lot of lies and betrayals, but it make absolutely no sense that her response to these lies is to embrace her murdering dad. I could totally buy that she's been virtually brainwashed this entire time, and I too am eager to see how the story plays out when she learns that her father has used and abused her the worst. Hope the writers don't screw up the story too bad.

 

Regarding this episode, I guess I'm very easy, because I thought it was really good. The only parts that dragged was the stuff with Lances, specifically when Sara was discussed and Ray. The latter just creeps me the hell out, not only with his behavior but his crazy eyes. I don't know what's up with BR's eyes. Perhaps he has allegeries or something because they always seem red and wider that normal. Whatever it is they just look off, and makes him look off which is very creepy.

 

Anyway, I enjoyed the Oliver and Thea scenes. The goodbye scenes between Roy and Diggle was a little odd and left a lot to be desired, I'd think he'd hug Diggle before he'd hug Roy goodbbye, but oh well. It was still a fairly descent scene. I really enjoyed all of the Team Arrow scenes, them working together, challenging each other and trying to figure out how to deal with this latest crisis.

 

I absolutely loved all of the Oliver/Felicity scenes. I'm probably the only person that thought both the goodbye and death scenes were 9s but they were to me. LOL. And that's mainly due (the former at least) to the amazing chemistry between SA and EBR. I could really feel the love and emotion coming off of both of them in that goodbye scene. And even though Felicity didn't say ILY, I'm okay with that and even better Oliver was okay with that. He just needed her to know for certain that he loved her. Now what Felicity does with that upon learning of his death and when he inevitably returns should prove interesting because we all know she loves him too.

 

The fight was awesome! SA was great in those scenes, but he looked colder than cold, while the guy that's playing Ra's looked to have barely broke a chill, which I guess was intentional considering they were fighting on Ra's turf.

 

The death scene was so sad. The montage broke me. :(  I know that Oliver will be back of course, but I just hope he's the Oliver we know and love. I do not want to see crazy/wrong or amnesiac Oliver. Hope the writers can resist those tropes when he comes back.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Enero

[Xantar]

Shallow note first: does Thea own any shirts that cover her belly?

 

Most of what I have to say about the show's treatment of women, Ray's inappropriate behavior, and Oliver's relationship with Felicity has been said. So I'll just throw out another theory. I think Oliver and Ra's secretly made a deal to fake Oliver's death so that he can come back and go after Merlyn. Ra's is too smart to fall for Oliver's story about being the one who killed Sara. Maseo certainly didn't fall for it, and I don't think Nyssa did either. And Ra's is also so experienced at killing that he could easily make sure that the wound he dealt was fatal. He missed Oliver's heart and didn't do anything else to make sure he was well and truly dead. I have to think that if Oliver survived, it's because Ra's let him.

 

Or maybe Ray Palmer will shrink down and perform micro-surgery on Oliver after Barry grabs his body and brings it back to Starling City.

[calliope1975]

So I'll just throw out another theory. I think Oliver and Ra's secretly made a deal to fake Oliver's death so that he can come back and go after Merlyn. Ra's is too smart to fall for Oliver's story about being the one who killed Sara. Maseo certainly didn't fall for it, and I don't think Nyssa did either. And Ra's is also so experienced at killing that he could easily make sure that the wound he dealt was fatal. He missed Oliver's heart and didn't do anything else to make sure he was well and truly dead. I have to think that if Oliver survived, it's because Ra's let him.

 

I love this theory. I wouldn't even be surprised if Merlyn was creeping on that mountain somewhere and saw the whole thing. It's shaping up that Malcolm is the real Big Bad this season, and I'd love some secret team up to take him down.

[ottoDbusdriver]

Based on that air travel plot on Felicity's computer, it looks like Starling City is supposed to be on the edge of Lake Michigan -- but I was under the impression that Starling City was supposed to be on the West Coast (a la Seattle).

[JenMD]

EBR looked banging in that red dress. I'm glad it made it's way over from The Flash.

 

The lovely red dress she wore on The Flash, isn't the same lovely red dress she was wearing last night.  We have seen The Flash dress (it has a keyhole opening, last night's didn't) before though, she wore it in Corto Maltese.  Turns out last night's red dress we've seen in purple in both Suicide Squad and Draw Back Your Bow.  Full credit to WornOnTv for the purple dress info, I hadn't realized it was the same.  By my count, this is at least her fourth dress in the red spectrum.  I would love to see her closet someday. Preferably arranged by color...

 

Also, I know she was brainwashed and had no real idea what she was doing but she did kill Sara and there has to be some repercussions for that. And I mean repercussions in the sense that she should struggle with what she's done, even though she has no knowledge of doing it. That's going to be a big thing to deal with. How do you even begin to get your head around the fact that you're a murderer but you don't remember?

 

She can sit and have a chat with Roy.  Maybe he'll break out the candles.

[Actionmage]

He'd been quite happily pretending there hadn't been a kiss and acting like nothing had changed (which Felicity later professed to want, but her angry behaviour belied her words),

 

 Felicity hasn't earned the right to be taken at her word? She said she wanted to pretend it never happened. Yet, Ray tracking her down- as opposed to trying to speak to her at work at a later time, or asking to meet her in a neutral spot, or just letting Felicity initiate any talking after her clear wording to him- is supposed to be considered okay because he doesn't seem to want to kill her?  

 

 I hope this is where the storyline is going but I fear if it does it'll be about how much it hurts Oliver to see his little sister used like that rather than Thea reacting to being brainwashed.

 

Sing it.

[paigow]

Based on that air travel plot on Felicity's computer, it looks like Starling City is supposed to be on the edge of Lake Michigan -- but I was under the impression that Starling City was supposed to be on the West Coast (a la Seattle).

SInce trains seem to be the preferred mode of transit between Central City & Starling City, how far apart are they? Although flying to secret Asian prisons would be easier from the Pacific North West rather than the Mid West.

[paigow]

Oliver Queen - The Winter Soldier

[foreverevolving]

The fact Malcolm drugged Thea to get her to kill Sara puts a whole new spin on his relationship with her. If he was so willing to do that, there's a good chance he has been drugging her this whole time to make her compliant. Thea's unwavering loyalty to Malcolm and ability to so coldly lie to Oliver seems a little weird and maybe even out of character until you taken into account the possibility he's been drugging/brainwashing her all along. Which, given the fact he is her father, is creepy on a level it's kind of hard to comprehend.

Malcolm doesn't love Thea. To Malcolm human beings are but mere pawns to get what he wants in the game of chess called life. He uses them to do what he needs them to and then discards them, Thea being related to him by blood is both a plus and, I'm sure, a nuisance. He will not think twice about severing ties the day she will no longer be valuable to his plans.

[statsgirl]

You know there is going to be a 'gotcha' somewhere in there.

 

I liked the good-byes scene. Diggle offered to go with him but Oliver refused so they shook hands as equals and Roy got a "take care of Thea" and a hug because he's become kind of a little brother to Oliver.  I don't know if he was expecting Felicity to show up, she said that she had been delayed at work, but when she said that she wouldn't try to talk him out of going because he wasn't going to listen to her anyway, he said "I appreciate that".  I really love that these two know each other so well, same with Diggle and Oliver.

 

I think Diggle and Felicity both knew that there was a very good chance Oliver was going to end up dying, in spite of what they said to him.

 

Team Arrow isn't off the hook. Oliver was killing people in the name of justice and Diggle was all about the vengeance kill until recently, there's blood on all of their hands, what's good for the goose is good for the damn gander. At the end of the day it wouldn't have happened if Oliver had just been honest with her, yeah she threw her lot in with a great big murderer, but Oliver is a murderer too does it count less because he has a significantly lower body count? 

Except for when he worked for Waller, Oliver only killed bad guys who were hurting others.  Diggle was a soldier.  Malcolm gleefully killed innocent people just because he could.  I see a difference.

 

The other difference is that Thea doesn't know that Oliver has killed anyone, only that he's kept secrets from her. She knows Malcolm has killed hundreds of people, including the father who raised her, and hurt the man who was her stepfather.  So aside from it being a stupid decision on her part, I see no reason why Diggle or Felicity would trust her with their secrets.

 

If it turns out that Malcolm was brainwashing Thea all along, taking away more of Thea's agency and JB's comments on how Malcolm loves her, I will be so disappointed.

 

He is an idiot. Which is why I cackled when Diggle told him he was one of the smartest men he ever knew. I was like...how many men do you know, John?

I think that would be Oliver, Deadshot and Roy..so, yeah, he is one of the 2 smartest men he knows :D

Don't forget Ben Browder's character from season 1.  That list would put Oliver in the genius category.

 

. That I love you as he trotted off without giving Felicity a chance to form a cohesive thought was something new from him.  It made me think that maybe he was starting to accept that his feelings for her didn't have to be a distraction.  He was no longer fighting them but going off to fight the Head of Demon was the wrong time for that major discussion. 

 

As for the notion that the more G rated interaction is intended to keep Felicity pure for fans, lol.  I can't speak for everyone but I'm kind of expecting TPTB to have Felicity jump into bed with Ray in some kind of mutual grief/rage/rebound thing so the notion of trying to keep her pure hasn't been telegraphed to me by anything that's happened on the show.     

Maybe but I don't think she'd jump into bed with Ray. For one thing, he's further along in his grieving process so it wouldn't be a "keep the demons at bay" thing for him and he's been shown to be considerate of her so I think he would be considerate of not taking advantage of her grieving too.  For Felicity, if Ray actually knew Oliver she'd be more likely to do it but he didn't and I think she would want to get closer to the people who mourned with her like Diggle and Roy.

 

In the goodbye scene with Team Arrow, Oliver seemed strangely at peace with his decisions. Maybe because he really though he could defeat Ra's, or maybe because he thought if he didn't the world would finally stop tormenting him.  There were a number of almost-smiles for Felicity, as if he had finally accepted his feelings for her and was dealing with them.  (That's not to say I wouldn't have preferred a serious goodbye kiss but as an alternative this still worked.)

 

Based on that air travel plot on Felicity's computer, it looks like Starling City is supposed to be on the edge of Lake Michigan -- but I was under the impression that Starling City was supposed to be on the West Coast (a la Seattle).

Maybe it has to be near Gotham City and Metropolis.

 

This show angers me quite often, and I'm disappointed with the way things have unfolded this season, last night included. But I just keep thinking about Oliver shaking Digg's hand, and giving Roy a hug, and the way he looked at Felicity after he kissed her forehead and the lightness to him after he simply told her he loved her (like it was the only thing he was sure of, as Angel12d wrote above). And I think about his face while he was kneeling on that cliff and how utterly surprised he looked that he lost, and all the faces that flashed through his mind as he was dying and I legit tear up. Oliver Queen makes me feel things, I'm just so invested in him.

That's the thing about this show. Even though The Flash has better plotting and is more fun to watch right now, it disappears from my memory like candy floss as soon as it's done.  Stephen Amell in playing Oliver's interactions with the people close to him grabs me, pulls me in and doesn't let me go.

 

Which is why Oliver can't die.

Edited December 11, 2014 by statsgirl

[SonofaBiscuit]

I was reading a review of this episode, and the reviewer mentioned that it was clear that Oliver knew he was going off to die.  I didn't get the impression at all.  To me, it seemed like he had every intention of coming back.  How did other people read that goodbye scene?

[slayer2]

I think the word stalker is being used incorrectly here.  For a start, stalkers are, by definition, obsessed with the object of their stalking.  I haven't seen any sign that Ray is single-mindedly obsessed with Felicity (quite the opposite, actually, given that he bailed on their kiss).  Second, stalkers spend a lot of time following their victims around without the victim being aware of it.  We've never seen any indication that Ray sits outside Felicity's house watching her, taking her picture when she's unaware, or anything of that nature.  If they show us a creepy crazy wall with tons of pictures taken of Felicity all over the place, then I'll revise my assessment, but I strongly doubt that Ray has a crazy wall for Felicity or that he's ever followed her without making his presence known to her.  Also, if he had been following her around on a regular basis, he wouldn't have needed to ping her phone to know she was at Verdant, because he'd already know she spends all her time there; he'd also know about Oliver.  (She's lucky he isn't a real stalker.)  It's actually a little surprising that he's made no effort to find out what she does when she's not with him (e.g. by asking her), given that her behaviour around him would make even the most switched-off person wonder what on earth she was getting up to on the side.

 

My diagnosis of Ray is that he's one of those impatient no-filter action-oriented people who acts on things as he thinks of them (like a kid).  Want to talk to Felicity right now?  Ping her phone, go to her, talk to her.  He openly tells her that he pinged her phone; he's not trying to sneak up on her and watch her when she's not aware of him.  He wanted to talk, so he went to talk.  That can be an unattractive trait, sure, but it's not the same as stalking.  Some people are annoying and persistent that way, forcing other people to talk about stuff when they really don't want to (which is not always a bad thing).  Maybe he's putting his own need to explain ahead of her stated desire to drop the subject, but that's just good old-fashioned selfishness.  Bottom line: obnoxious behaviour is not the same thing as stalking.  Stalking is very passive-aggressive (repeatedly calling and hanging up, for instance).  Ray seems quite the opposite of passive-aggressive; he's more full-frontal assault, which is why he showed up at Verdant and only then called Felicity.  Given that a few weeks seem to have gone by since the kiss, the fact that they're only addressing it now, aside from a writing/timeline failure, indicates that Ray is only dealing with it now because of Felicity suddenly being all annoyed with him.  Before that, he didn't really seem too worried about it at all.  Ray is a "see the problem, fix the problem" kind of guy.  Personally, I prefer this to Oliver's passive-aggressive crap, even if they are writing him poorly and should know better than to persist with the phone-pinging and so on.

 

There is a sort of karmic justice to Felicity getting her phone pinged, though.  All those times she's tracked people with her hacking, phone pinging, etc. coming back to haunt her.

 

The plus side of Ray forcing the issue is that Felicity now knows why he pulled away from the kiss.  Given that every guy who kisses her immediately runs away, I'm glad she at least knows why Ray did it.  She must be getting a complex.

Guh! Okay, I'm proposing to this post. Nothing fancy, just a small diamond and some Sally action. Sooooo much WORD that I'm practically choking on it.

Edited December 11, 2014 by slayer2

[calliope1975]

I was reading a review of this episode, and the reviewer mentioned that it was clear that Oliver knew he was going off to die.  I didn't get the impression at all.  To me, it seemed like he had every intention of coming back.  How did other people read that goodbye scene?

 

I could read it both ways. I thought he seemed way too calm, almost resigned, about fighting Ra's, but that could have been focus for what he was going up against. I think his goodbyes would have been a bit more poignant though if he had no intention of returning. 

 

ETA: Ariah's post below has swayed me to thinking Oliver was resigned to death. So, in January, I'm going to need him to fight to live.

Edited December 11, 2014 by calliope1975

[Ariah]

Actually, I got the impression that Oliver knew he wouldn't win.

 

Let me try to put that in words. Oliver uses his bravado persona in front of his friends - he assures Diggle and Roy (and Felicity) that he'll be back and everything's going to be fine. That he's fighting for Thea and he has to win.

 

The problem is - he's no longer fighting for Thea. He officially took Thea's sin onto himself. He absconded her. She's off the hook. Oliver is the official murderer in the LoA's ledger. He doesn't need to win for Thea to live. He just needs to put up a good fight.

 

(If he wins and kills Ra's, Malcolm's ledger is cleared.)

 

To me it seemed that Oliver knew he has little chance against Ra's. He might have a flicker of hope there, especially when he scored that one hit - but it was quickly diminished. But even before, when he was "setting affairs in order" - he was calm and composed, his goodbyes had a touch of death to them. "Take care of Thea". Why would Roy had to take care of her, if Oliver comes back the next day? "I love you". Why confes something so profound if you can do it on return, triumphant?

 

To me, Oliver climbed that mountain knowing he is very likely to die. I didn't read his expresion on the brink of death as a surprise that he lost - it was more of a sadness, exhaustion and revelation: "So this is how it feels." And maybe "I don't want to go, yet."

 

I think Ra's saw that all and somehow paid his respect to that - in a weird, Ra's way.

 

I also think Felicity felt that Oliver thinks he'll die. But that's another story.

[Atony]

I was reading a review of this episode, and the reviewer mentioned that it was clear that Oliver knew he was going off to die.  I didn't get the impression at all.  To me, it seemed like he had every intention of coming back.  How did other people read that goodbye scene?

 

I think so.  Sure Felicity/Diggle/Roy have faith in Oliver and think he is the ultimate badass, but I have to imagine Oliver was familiar enough with the league and Ras to know he stood little chance of winning.  He was willing to die to protect Thea.

 

And yes, I hope there will be a arc of a mentally unbalanced Oliver after being brought back to life by the Lazarus pits.  I think that would be an interesting way to mix up the dynamic of the show for a couple episodes.

[dtissagirl]

I was reading a review of this episode, and the reviewer mentioned that it was clear that Oliver knew he was going off to die.  I didn't get the impression at all.  To me, it seemed like he had every intention of coming back.  How did other people read that goodbye scene?

 

I think he knew there was no possible way to win against Ra's, but the fact that he packed the magic herbs tells me he was planning on NOT dying. Even if he ended up dead. Does that make sense? :)

[SonofaBiscuit]

I'd like some clarification from Guggenheim or SA on that (preferably SA).  Because it seemed like Oliver hadn't even intended to say goodbye to Felicity if she didn't show up right then.  She basically walked in on him while he was leaving.  And then he told her he knew two things, but it was almost like he was going to walk out the door without saying the ILY if she hadn't asked what the second thing was.  If he was knew he was going off to his death, I think that they should have made a bigger deal out of the goodbyes. 

[BkWurm1]

Ray 's behavior is not acceptable. Eccentricity doesn't give you a free pass to hack in order to show up where someone is. Even if Ray has no romantic intentions towards Felicity, his behavior is wrong. I wouldn't allow anyone - boss, friend, lover, cashier, cab driver, co-worker, etc - to behave as Ray is. It isn't romantic, endearing, eccentric, or cute. He is crossing lines and I wouldn't accept it if Oliver was doing it either.

 

But Felicity IS accepting it and that is her choice and she's not being forced or coerced into making that choice and  I guess that is kind of what I'm argue for, letting Felicity choose what she is willing to find acceptable.  People make those kind of choices about every relationship because everybody has problematic behavior.  Some people are always late, or there's the friend that is always borrowing money, or the one that calls you at work and wants to chat for a half hour, or the one that never borrows one Advil but takes ten or twenty just in case she needs it, or the person that comes to visit for a weekend and then stays a month or goes through your photos on their own, or stops by to play with your dog even when you are not home, or breaks into your house to fix a window, or calls every time you don't show up for Sunday morning worship wanting to know where you are and why you weren't there, or the friend who lies to your face about having ended an abusive relationship that you know (and later confirm) went on for another year.

 

None of it is acceptable behavior, but we choose what we will accept in the people around us maybe because their flaws are worth putting up with for the rest of their good personality, maybe it's a cultural difference or an age difference or there is an extenuated circumstance or maybe their wrong behavior isn't that big of a deal to us.  We all make choices about what we are willing to allow into our lives.  I'm not talking about someone basically brainwashed into thinking they have no choice but to accept it, that isn't the position Felicity is in or the one most of are in when it comes to dealing with fiends and relatives and everyone in between.  

 

   Stalking is a real problem and people shouldn't be blind to warning signs but Felicity wasn't blind to them and then she got to know Ray to the point where she has chosen to tolerate some of his unacceptable behavior.  If she was stuck and forced to tolerate his actions, that's a different kind of tolerate, that's an abuse, but that's not what we are seeing on the show.  Maybe I am overly sensitive because I've seen what real stalking looks like or maybe it's my dislike of generalizations that won't let this go without clarification.

 

I really don't have a problem with anyone finding Ray's behavior unacceptable to them, that comes down to each of us deciding what is or isn't acceptable in our lives but as long as someone isn't being brainwashed or mentally abused or financially coerced into accepting the unacceptable (I'm not talking about crimes - just behavior), then I'm not sure it is fair to say they are wrong.  In the real world everything is much more murky and filled with grey, but this is a comic book show with a comic book hero who isn't one of the dark damaged souls.  We know Felicity isn't foolishly letting her guard down around a potential monster.  What she's doing is ok. 

Edited December 11, 2014 by BkWurm1

[SonofaBiscuit]

So people are sure that Oliver packed those herbs, right?  I rewatched, and I could not see them for the life of me, but if others say that they saw them, I trust you guys :)

[Xantar]

I think we can separate the Ray Palmer issue out into two things. One is whether we think Felicity should be putting up with his behavior. I personally wouldn't, but if she wants to let him invade her boundaries all the time, I guess she's a big girl and can make those decisions.

 

But the other issue is that the writers seem to think we should find him endearing or quirky in a way that makes him a good match for Felicity. And for me it's just not working. It's way too much and he goes way over the line. Yes, Felicity also hacks computers and illegally breaks into places, but she doesn't use it to get the drop on people she works with and cares about. She notably has never used any of her hacking skills on Oliver or Diggle (I suppose she pings their phones, but they're probably aware of it). She's still charming and awkward and the most inappropriate thing she does is blurt out what she's really thinking. That's how they should have characterized Ray Palmer.