Small Talk: The Prayer Closet

[Arwen Evenstar]

3 hours ago, emma675 said:

Arwen, did you get snow? Once again, Dallas got nothing! 

Nothing but a light dusting.  Freezing rain and sleet are falling.  City of Houston and burbs have turned into a skating rink. It’s an ice event largely for us.  Conditions are deteriorating and it’s expected to freeze over tonight. Schools will likely be closed tomorrow.

[bigskygirl]

The interesting part is a lot of the low vitamin D level symptoms are the same for thyroid problems. I read on the internet a person with hypothyroidism can have a hard time absorbing vitamins, plus have possible digestive issues and can be related to sleep apnea. Maybe all the running around in my dreams are the reason why I wake up tired and with a bad headache. Ha!

[Arwen Evenstar]

5 hours ago, bigskygirl said:

The interesting part is a lot of the low vitamin D level symptoms are the same for thyroid problems. I read on the internet a person with hypothyroidism can have a hard time absorbing vitamins, plus have possible digestive issues and can be related to sleep apnea. Maybe all the running around in my dreams are the reason why I wake up tired and with a bad headache. Ha!

 Vitamin D deficiency is linked to a lot of medical problems. Poor sleep is linked to headaches, obesity and host of other problems. It takes several practitioners interested in a holistic approach to help anyone connect the dots. 

Edited January 16, 2018 by Arwen Evenstar

[bigskygirl]

19 minutes ago, Arwen Evenstar said:

 Vitamin D deficiency is linked to a lot of medical problems. Poor sleep is linked to headaches, obesity and host of other problems. 

Bad headaches after waking up is also a sign of sleep apnea especially when you have a bad not breathing episode during the night. I remembered waking up during the night trying to catch my breath, coughing, and it seem my heart stopped beating for a few seconds before it starting racing. I thought it was a panic attack, but it was a nasty non-breathing episode. I would wake up extremely tired, with a bad headache, and a sore throat from coughing while trying to catch my breath again.

I will be taking something to help me sleep for the next two weeks. If it does not help, I will be going back in for a follow up visit. I cannot remember the last time I had a good night sleep without being tired the next day or not having a bad headache.

[lookeyloo]

Well my mind finally snapped from reading so much on here.  I had a dream about the Duggars.  And I was in it. Oy. woe is me.  Anyway, I was in some house with Dillweed and Iz and Sam and Bin and two children that were not spurgie and henry.  Dillweed was lying on the floor playing with the boys, and in the dream it was all very nice and the boys were adorable.  Bin was sitting on a couch and unknown children were playing.  In the dream I was thinking "wow Bin is a hunk" because the Bin in the dreams was really a hunk.  He does work out in real life, so that isn't too far off.  I could never see his face or hear him sniffle.  In walks Michelle.  She talked in a quiet voice but didn't sound looney.  I said "HI Michelle" and she said "Oh No" and I said "What?" and she said "Now there will be pictures of everything on social media". and I said, "Look me in the eye and I will promise you not to take pictures so there will be nothing to post".  She and I had a staring contest while I assured her.  Then I watched a little more and woke up.  I'm already in the Prayer Closet.  Is there an asylum annex?

[Love2dance]

@lookeyloo, that is the most sane Michelle will ever be. 

Thanks for sharing your crazy dream. 

[Arwen Evenstar]

Latest news on the horror story that is the Turpin family:

• kids only allowed one bath a year
• parents left out food and refused to allow their kids to eat it
• kids weren’t allowed to use toilet more than once a day
• tney were tied up for remainder of the day
• kids were punished for “playing in water” if they tried to wash above their wrists
•  most of the children suffered from neuropathy due to being confined
• they were all malnourished 
• most had cognitive impairment 
• doubtful the adult children can function on their own

The parents have pleaded not guilty.  Offers have poured in from around th world to adopt these kids. 

[bigskygirl]

I say the same thing should be done to the parents. Makes me sick and angry.

[Arwen Evenstar]

Just cannot believe that this all made me wonder whether not even the menstruating females were allowed to wash. Perhaps it’s a blessing that their periods were likely stopped by their malnutrition. 

There should be a special place in hell for people who do this to their children. 

[StaceyNotStacie]

http://www.intouchweekly.com/posts/turpin-family-duggars-quiverfull-151742.amp

 

This showed up on the front of Google before. They’re starting to compare the Turpins lifestyle to the Duggars. 

[SMama]

It could not have happened to a nicer pair of abusers couple. The Volderjosh scandals are never going to go away.

[bigskygirl]

Wish me luck! I am going to file a complaint against the one doctor in Great Falls and against Great Falls Clinic. No idea if any action will be taken, but at least I get it out in the open because I do not want another patient to suffer emotionally and physically because of lack of good, quality medical care and dealing with a billing department who cares more about getting their payments even if one of their doctors makes mistakes with a patient's health care.

Edited January 19, 2018 by bigskygirl

[Marshmallow Mollie]

I heard on the radio today that the 29 yr old Turbin daughter weighed 89 pounds. 

[Arwen Evenstar]

27 minutes ago, Marshmallow Mollie said:

I heard on the radio today that the 29 yr old Turbin daughter weighed 89 pounds. 

Heartbreaking 

[Mollie]

38 minutes ago, Marshmallow Mollie said:

I heard on the radio today that the 29 yr old Turbin daughter weighed 89 pounds. 

The Daily Mail reports that the 29-year-old daughter weighed just 82 pounds.  Also found in the house were two well-fed, one-year-old Maltese puppies.  None of the starving 13 children had ever been to a dentist.  The kids were only allowed to shower once or twice a year.  When found, the children were all covered in feces and urine.  All of the children are hospitalized and, because of severe malnutrition, can only be fed through IVs at the present time.

The parents have been charged with torture, false imprisonment, 7 charges of abusing a dependent adult and six counts of child abuse.  The father has also been charged with one count of a lewd act against a daughter under the age of 14.

If convicted of all charges, they face a minimum of 94 years in jail each, but prosecutors are seeking life sentences.  Both Turpins were shackled for the 20-minute court appearance, with the father also wearing ankle restraints.  The parents pleaded not guilty to all charges.  Their bail was set at $13 million each − $1million for every child they are accused of torturing. 

The trial is expected to last more than a year.

The hospital has established a fund to accept donations to help the children with long-term health and educational needs.  You may donate here: http://www.ruhealth.org/en-us/foundation/donate/Pages/PerrisSiblingSupportFund.aspx

[bigskygirl]

I say throw them into the general prison population, tell the guards to walk away, and let their fellow inmates take care of them. I do remember when I took a tour of the local county detention center, and the sheriff department captain who oversees the jail telling me the females inmates were worse than the male inmates, so may the mother get the special attention she deserves.

[Jynnan tonnix]

Even though this is such a horrible situation, I hope some good comes out of it as far as regulating home-schooling in this country. And even, possibly, taking a look at just what individual religious beliefs might entail. 

As much as freedom of religion is a cornerstone of our constitution, there has to be some way of identifying the truly toxic beliefs before children are irreparably damaged. And while the Turpin case clearly has actual mental illness at its base along with the religious angle, I see too much similarity between them and the Rodriguii, if not quite the Duggars, to at least take a closer look at some of these families.

I'm no lawyer, so I don't know where individual rights would fall on this sort of spectrum, but would investigation be permissible as long as there were some sort of parameters where it could be ascertained that the children were not suffering actual, measurable harm through the parents' religious beliefs? I know there are probably innumerable grey areas, but still....

[Mollie]

24 minutes ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

Even though this is such a horrible situation, I hope some good comes out of it as far as regulating home-schooling in this country. And even, possibly, taking a look at just what individual religious beliefs might entail. 

As much as freedom of religion is a cornerstone of our constitution, there has to be some way of identifying the truly toxic beliefs before children are irreparably damaged. And while the Turpin case clearly has actual mental illness at its base along with the religious angle, I see too much similarity between them and the Rodriguii, if not quite the Duggars, to at least take a closer look at some of these families.

I'm no lawyer, so I don't know where individual rights would fall on this sort of spectrum, but would investigation be permissible as long as there were some sort of parameters where it could be ascertained that the children were not suffering actual, measurable harm through the parents' religious beliefs? I know there are probably innumerable grey areas, but still....

From the Los Angeles Times: "Particularly severe abuse cases that involve school-age children also tend to involve homeschooling. In a 2014 study of child torture, Barbara Knox, a pediatrician at the University of Wisconsin, found that 47% of school-age victims had been withdrawn from school for homeschooling and an additional 29% had never been enrolled."

Read the entire article: http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-coleman-brightbill-turpin-homeschool-abuse-20180117-story.html

[Jynnan tonnix]

50 minutes ago, Mollie said:

From the Los Angeles Times: "Particularly severe abuse cases that involve school-age children also tend to involve homeschooling. In a 2014 study of child torture, Barbara Knox, a pediatrician at the University of Wisconsin, found that 47% of school-age victims had been withdrawn from school for homeschooling and an additional 29% had never been enrolled."

Read the entire article: http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-coleman-brightbill-turpin-homeschool-abuse-20180117-story.html

Yup, I did read it...along with a couple of others. And I hate that it casts such shadow on the many parents who home-school for very good reasons and do an exemplary job, but at the end of the  day, those parents should not mind some background checks being done on their methods and their children if it helps rout out scum like the Turbins.

[DangerousMinds]

The trial is supposed to last over a year? Lots of $$$. I highly doubt any changes will be made to homeschooling laws. Call me cynical.

[Mollie]

17 minutes ago, DangerousMinds said:

The trial is supposed to last over a year? Lots of $$$. I highly doubt any changes will be made to homeschooling laws. Call me cynical.

The Turpins will probably come to some kind of plea bargain arrangement to avoid a trial.  They really have no defense.  You can't plead insanity for 27 years of child abuse and torture.  They both had the good sense to keep the puppies well-fed and the two-year-old and themselves. The father was an educated engineer so he was obviously not stupid.

I think this case will result in more supervision of homeschooling.  People all over the country are outraged at what happened to these children and are going to demand changes.  

[Celia Rubenstein]

Is cracking down on homeschooling really the answer to situations like this? Because it seems to me that it would be easy enough to evade such monitoring by simply staying off the educational grid, so to speak.  Just don't make it known to authorities that you have children that you are purporting to school at home. That way authorities can't stick their nose into how you treat them. Isn't that really what happened here? This family was only tied to homeschooling through some sort of dubious status that was never formally recognized. So it's not like the homeschool monitoring system in place failed to catch them. They were never really a part of it. So how improved homeschool monitoring would have helped these kids is unclear to me.

 I think the answer lies in more general community awareness and involvement in what we see going on around us .. essentially if you see something say something. That is far more likely to result in situations like this one being discovered than relying upon an overburden educational system to monitor and catch people like this. Neighbors were in a better position to see what was going on than any school system was. 

Edited January 20, 2018 by Celia Rubenstein

[lookeyloo]

Remember the days before air conditioning and tv. Windows open. Hard to have those kinds of secrets when more people were out and about. It isn't unusual now for both parents to work leaving home early and returning late. Kids in school/daycare.  We live in a subdivision of about 300 houses. There are lots of kids. We rarely see them especially in winter. We rarely see anybody during the day or evenings except cars coming or going. Some of them go to the subdivision pool in the summer.  So it is hard to know what a family is about. And there is so much made of not butting into someone else's lives. Things are different and am guessing people kept to themselves. Look at Jaycee Duggard and how she was hidden almost in plain sight for years despite authorities getting into the compound. Complicated issues. 

[Catfin]

Very complicated issues, indeed. While people cry for change, they push back when it comes to greater monitoring by "the government."  Ultimately, it is very difficult to have children removed from the parents. The truly unstable and devious know how to stay under the radar. 

A young person in the family is now heavily enmeshed in the system due to flagrant child endangerment. Extremely fortunate that the children were unharmed, but even this incident was not enough to have her children removed. 

[DangerousMinds]

14 hours ago, Mollie said:

The Turpins will probably come to some kind of plea bargain arrangement to avoid a trial.  They really have no defense.  You can't plead insanity for 27 years of child abuse and torture.  They both had the good sense to keep the puppies well-fed and the two-year-old and themselves. The father was an educated engineer so he was obviously not stupid.

I think this case will result in more supervision of homeschooling.  People all over the country are outraged at what happened to these children and are going to demand changes.  

Not to make this political, but given the thousands of children killed in this country each year (even beyond the mass shootings) with no change in laws or regulations, I have no hope for home school regulations to come out of this tragedy.

[BitterApple]

2 hours ago, lookeyloo said:

Remember the days before air conditioning and tv. Windows open. Hard to have those kinds of secrets when more people were out and about. It isn't unusual now for both parents to work leaving home early and returning late. Kids in school/daycare.  We live in a subdivision of about 300 houses. There are lots of kids. We rarely see them especially in winter. We rarely see anybody during the day or evenings except cars coming or going. Some of them go to the subdivision pool in the summer.  So it is hard to know what a family is about. And there is so much made of not butting into someone else's lives. Things are different and am guessing people kept to themselves. Look at Jaycee Duggard and how she was hidden almost in plain sight for years despite authorities getting into the compound. Complicated issues. 

This^^^. I lived in my last subdivision for six years and only met ONE neighbor in that entire time.  I could've been surrounded by sociopaths, serial killers and bank robbers and I would've had no clue. I live in Vegas where the streets are pretty much deserted June-October because of the heat. so kids not being out and about wouldn't really raise red flags out here. I can see how an awful situation like what was going on in the Turpin home would be overlooked by those living in the area. 

Edited January 20, 2018 by BitterApple

[Celia Rubenstein]

Everything being said about how isolated we are from our neighbors is true. We almost never know each other and rarely do we have any idea about what is going on behind closed doors. This fact is one of the greatest contributors to situations like the one in the Turpin house going on for so long, that and the tendency of families to be so spread out that they don't know what is going on in one another's homes any more than neighbors do.

Unfortunately, cranking up homeschool regulations will do little to prevent behavior like that of the Turpin parents. They are dedicated psychos who likely would have simply ignored any requirements their kids be monitored or observed in any way.  They probably would have simply never registered as homeschoolers at all if such monitoring was a requirement. And who would have been the wiser? As we've seen, the neighbors would have had no clue. The local superintendent admitted that since they homeschooled from the beginning, they were never on anyone's radar.

The temptations to throw some regulations at the situation is powerful, I get that. Someone has to do something, sure. But a false sense of security is the more likely result of such action, rather than real child abuse prevention.

[bigskygirl]

Where were the grandparents of the children at? Where were the other family members at? This must have cut themselves off from other family which can be a major red flag. I know my grandmother (dad's mother) was not happy when my dad left my mom and his three children especially when she saw how sad and upset I was. She did not like my step-mother at all. If something like this was going on believe me my grandma and my dad's two sisters would have been going in and trying to save us from the abuse and neglect. It would have been war world three, four and five before it all ended. Like Julia Sugarbaker said on Designing Women "We would be going to the woodshed and one of us would not be coming out alive." In my case, there was abuse, and I know my grandparents and aunts and uncles knew something was wrong, but I think they did not want to rock the boat. Like I said my aunts and grandmother told my dad to get his act together, but sadly he never did.

[doodlebug]

2 hours ago, BitterApple said:

This^^^. I lived in my last subdivision for six years and only met ONE neighbor in that entire time.  I could've been surrounded by sociopaths, serial killers and bank robbers and I would've had no clue. I live in Vegas where the streets are pretty much deserted June-October because of the heat. so kids not being out and about wouldn't really raise red flags out here. I can see how an awful situation like what was going on in the Turpin home would be overlooked by those living in the area. 

I've lived in my house 26 years.  Granted, I'm single and work full-time; but I only know the neighbors on both sides of me by first and last names.  The people across the street, I wave but have no idea.  I know the first and last names of two families down the street; one because I delivered their now adult daughter, the other because the wife's maternal aunt is married to my paternal uncle.  My next door neighbors, a lovely young couple, very friendly, have lived there about 3 years.  We nod and say hi over the back fence and I end up talking briefly with the hubby several times a year when he is out mowing his lawn (I don't mow mine, I hire someone).  Anyway, during the past year; I've seen them literally dozens of times, we've acknowledged one another in friendly fashion, talked about the weather, the garden, the usual stuff.  This past Halloween, they come to my door holding their 8 month (!!!!) old daughter, dressed as an adorable strawberry.  I nearly had a stroke.  I had no idea she was pregnant, let alone had given birth!  In retrospect, I guess I never got a good look at her belly over the fence.  Considering my line of work, as well as the fact I was home every day for 3 months this summer while recovering from a knee replacement; I felt like a dope.  

I don't have any problem believing that the Turpins' neighbors were perfectly nice people who simply didn't notice anything amiss, especially in light of the fact that the kids apparently never went outside.

As far as homeschooling regulations, I think they need to be strengthened to make sure all the kids are getting a decent education, however, I don't think it is going to do much to prevent a situation like that in California.  Either the parents will coerce the kids into behaving during any inspection or they will be under the radar by not registering.  There is also the very real problem that our Congress is currenly in thrall to a bunch of right wing religious zealots who will scream about the separation of church and state should anyone try to suggest that maybe all kids should know about evolution and how the earth came about which will put the kibosh on any meaningful legislation on homeschooling.

Edited January 20, 2018 by doodlebug

[Catfin]

We've been in our house twenty years this January. Our situation is unique in that  our place was the first built in the cul de sac and we got to welcome everyone as their places were finished. Everyone moved in within a few months and were mostly at the same point in life, youngish marrieds starting families.  There has been turnover at five of the ten houses on the road and cul de sac. 

My daughter's friend was over the day after my Dad died, and the parade of neighbors with lasagnas and pound cakes was happening. This 17-year-old kid was not sure why they were doing that as they did not know their neighbors at all. I found that sad but the more typical experience these days. 

 

We're planning to move in about three years as our youngest heads off to college.  Our development and immediate area are still lovely, but the city as a whole has some challenges. We also want a smaller house laid out for aging. I'm terrified to move though, as it is such a gamble with neighbors. Guess you have to make it what you want. 

[Mollie]

4 hours ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

Everything being said about how isolated we are from our neighbors is true. We almost never know each other and rarely do we have any idea about what is going on behind closed doors. This fact is one of the greatest contributors to situations like the one in the Turpin house going on for so long, that and the tendency of families to be so spread out that they don't know what is going on in one another's homes any more than neighbors do.

Unfortunately, cranking up homeschool regulations will do little to prevent behavior like that of the Turpin parents. They are dedicated psychos who likely would have simply ignored any requirements their kids be monitored or observed in any way.  They probably would have simply never registered as homeschoolers at all if such monitoring was a requirement. And who would have been the wiser? As we've seen, the neighbors would have had no clue. The local superintendent admitted that since they homeschooled from the beginning, they were never on anyone's radar.

The temptations to throw some regulations at the situation is powerful, I get that. Someone has to do something, sure. But a false sense of security is the more likely result of such action, rather than real child abuse prevention.

Every state in America has compulsory education laws which require children to attend school or face truancy charges.  In California, school attendance is required between the ages of 6 to 18.  Under state law, a pupil who, without a valid excuse, is absent from school for three full days in one school year, or is tardy or absent for more than 30 minutes during the school day on three occasions in one school year, is considered truant.  At that point, authorities intervene and the parents can be fined or imprisoned.

California does, however, allow kids to be enrolled in private schools without any supervision.  This is what the Turpins did.  Mr. Turpin registered his home as a private school called Sandcastle Day School.  Private schools are only subject to an annual inspection by the state or local fire marshal.  There is no evidence yet that a fire inspection ever occurred at the home.

These are the laws that I think must be changed.  Private schools must be supervised for their curriculum, student progress, attendance, qualifications of teachers and staff, and the wellbeing of the minor children.  The state has a responsibility to care about the education of all children, not just some of them.  

[Celia Rubenstein]

Additional regulations may improve homeschooling academic standards but it won't do much to prevent the type of thing that happened in California.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Celia Rubenstein

[Catfin]

Isn't there an issue with some of the home birthing movement as well? Some don't register the birth so there is no official record of the person at all? How can one be checked up on if there is no record of their existence?

[FakeJoshDuggar]

I saw where the father was charged with a lewd act on a child. I wish I was surprised but I’m not. 

[Arwen Evenstar]

5 hours ago, FakeJoshDuggar said:

I saw where the father was charged with a lewd act on a child. I wish I was surprised but I’m not. 

As if his Captain Kangaroo haircut wasn’t creepy enough..I have no words.

[zoomama]

he has had that haircut since his teens!  did anyone see the 20/20 show last night? it was very interesting. the wife was abused as a child herself.  

[Arwen Evenstar]

2 hours ago, zoomama said:

he has had that haircut since his teens!  did anyone see the 20/20 show last night? it was very interesting. the wife was abused as a child herself.  

I find it odd that they’re Pentecostal, yet she wears makeup, he’s got long hair, they get vow renewals from Elvis impersonators.  They’ve also been accused of being Quiverful, which would frown on all of that as well.

As messed up as Ma and Pa Turpin are, Elvis impersonators and the Roo do seem the most normal things about them. 

[Rabbittron]

Why did the weather man have to be right? They said it will start snowing @11pm and that is the time it started. 

[Arwen Evenstar]

6 hours ago, Rabbittron said:

Why did the weather man have to be right? They said it will start snowing @11pm and that is the time it started. 

These days they’re usually right on. More sophisticated radars and satellite imaging and modeling. 

[Jynnan tonnix]

3 minutes ago, Arwen Evenstar said:

These days they’re usually right on. More sophisticated radars and satellite imaging and modeling. 

I still find they are pretty hit and miss - at least, they seem to change their minds pretty much every day (sometimes more) until the time that they can look out of the window and see which of the scenarios they predicted is the one actually happening. Maybe the weather in Connecticut is a little more unpredictable than Texas, though.

[Arwen Evenstar]

Texas weather is pretty unpredictable, but since Connecticut is by the coast and gets lake effects to some degree, I’d believe that makes for very unpredictable weather.

[Temperance]

Mark Twain once said "If you don't like the weather in New England now, just wait five minutes." 

[Arwen Evenstar]

13 hours ago, Temperance said:

Mark Twain once said "If you don't like the weather in New England now, just wait five minutes." 

We say that about Texas, too.

[Westiepeach]

1 hour ago, Arwen Evenstar said:

We say that about Texas, too.

... and here in NE Ohio ...

[louannems]

We always say that here in Seattle!

[emma675]

Except in Texas we say "wait a minute", not 5 minutes, Arwen! Lol!

[jennblevins]

38 minutes ago, louannems said:

We always say that here in Seattle!

In Seattle, though, you can also just go to the other side of the building, if you don’t want to wait even five minutes. 

[latetotheparty]

Minnesota you suck. That is all. 

[zoomama]

turpin family update:  they are sending in cadaver dogs to EACH of the 4 homes that this family lived in to see if there any dead children buried on the site.  they are also doing dna testing on the kids to prove parentage ---i guess there is some question as to if all 13 belong to the family.  i said from the eginning that i bet the baby belongs to one of the girls and they are raising her as theirs.  also read that the mother said she wanted  kids to be able to have a family reality show like the duggers and kate+8.    GAH!!!!!!    it just gets more and more awful.  

 

i made ham and pink bean soup for dinner tonight and i am about ready to eat it. mmm....yummy.

[Mojitogirl]

I only understand this brand of fundamentalism from the very patient explanations wonderful posters here share but it seems to me that the Turpins must have adhered to the “evilness of a child’s heart” philosophy. They tempted them with food, toys, WATER AND CLEANLIESS, and unmercifully “punished” them for probably imagined infractions. To my untrained and ignorant eye, the tying up and punishing are an extreme and criminal blanket training        using the excuse of “bad” children to justify their actions.