Small Talk: The Prayer Closet

[GEML]

I knew a couple like that too. Not religious at all - in fact, the wife was college educated with a good job - just intensely needy. Some men seem to like it, is the only explanation I can offer, because the couple I know married and had stayed together for years. Baffles me to no end, but it takes all kinds.

[Barb23]

Big sky girl - I liked your stories. I have 2 instances of working with people that were couples, but didn't make it known. Neither one was cuz of company rules about not dating coworkers. I was surprised when I found out. The first couple lived together but drove to work separately cuz her job required her to stay longer. She was in the sales dept & he was the warehouse manager. I don't remember them ever eating lunch together. He ate with the warehouse guys & she ate lunch with the rest of us or would go out. The second couple, at a different company, was the same way. Different departments but really they were just down the hall from one another. He was in accounting & she was the vice-president's Secretary. In both cases it was like we all knew & didn't make a big deal out of it cuz they didn't.

[bigskygirl]

My husband and I use to work at the same group home about nine years ago, but we were not allowed to work the same shift. I was the 2:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m. shift, and he was the 10:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. shift. We went to staff meetings and some training classes together. I joked around about being married to him, and we got teased about it a little.

[Mrsjumbo]

My DH has a home office & for a long time I was a SAHM after having kids. He would get up, go to his office in the basement, come up for lunch, then go downstairs again until dinner time. So even though we were in the same house I tried to keep our space.

[mbutterfly]

I knew a couple like that too. Not religious at all - in fact, the wife was college educated with a good job - just intensely needy. Some men seem to like it, is the only explanation I can offer, because the couple I know married and had stayed together for years. Baffles me to no end, but it takes all kinds.

I've just been pondering these descriptions of wives who monitor their husbands' every move. If it is reversed, we sometimes call it emotional abuse. I don't think that about Jill, but some of the extremes cited here seem close to that. 

[Betweenyouandme]

Going back a little bit, I'm bisexual. However, I've had a hard time finding women to date. By far, I've been told by a woman flirting with me or even hooking up, that they thought it was fun but don't date women. It's always made me feel discouraged and hurt. I'm not trying to make any statements as to what that means on their end...just stating that's what I've been told multiple times.

As far as the testing faith question, I think, personally, it's good to learn about different world views and religions, but I don't think I need to actually test my faith in the sense of being in tempting situations. I think there are enough temptations in the world without purposely seeking them out. Even with the Duggars, they all still have a choice as to their faith and behavior. Any one of them could do all sorts of things considered as a sin by their parents. And, either way, no one could make another person truly believe anything in their heart. I personally believe that temptation comes from the devil. So, I don't want him in my life in any way...certainly not to get involved in my faith. But, I lnow he's tried to tempt me. Sometimes, I've failed; sometimes I've gotten through it. Yes, I think that could have broken my faith or strengthened it, but it's not something I invite into my life. For example, pain may make me stronger, but I don't seek out pain in hopes to grow. I go about my life the best I can and put the faith I have in God to help me get past temptation.

I hope none of this is offensive. I'm not saying anyone agrees or has to agree. Just either my experience or my own personal religious beliefs.

[bigskygirl]

Jill listening to Rick Warren. The man said the husband of Terry Schiavo had a hidden agenda when he had her taken off life support and compared it Nazism. I guess the poor man did not want his wife to wake up because she may say something that would not make him look good. Leave it a Duggar to listen to someone who has no clue about the situation and compares anything he does not agree with to Nazism.

[Sew Sumi]

Godwin's Law. The Duggars are, of course, also guilty in this regard: remember Jessa's posts comparing abortion to the Halocaust? smh

[GEML]

Rick Warren is a deeply flawed human being who has also managed to help a lot of people. I think after the death of his son he's felt some much needed humility on speaking out on matters regarding the complexity of the human body.

[lottiedottie]

So this Onion article made me laugh...and is apropos to the Duggars.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/horribly-awkward-first-sexual-encounter-worth-the,1614/?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=Pic:NA:InFocus

[floridamom]

Thanks lottiedottie for that link.....who the heck would be so stupid as to reveal such a personal and private thing to the public? Are these people kidding or is this a true article? I couldn't help but picture Josh and Anna, and Jill and Derickdillard at that very moment, praying and petrified, confused and sweaty feeling pressured to feel joyful, yet, well, aroused...OMG, I need a vacation guys. This whole group of people is pretty confused with what being an adult is about.

[duggarshow]

Thanks lottiedottie for that link.....who the heck would be so stupid as to reveal such a personal and private thing to the public? Are these people kidding or is this a true article? I couldn't help but picture Josh and Anna, and Jill and Derickdillard at that very moment, praying and petrified, confused and sweaty feeling pressured to feel joyful, yet, well, aroused...OMG, I need a vacation guys. This whole group of people is pretty confused with what being an adult is about.

That article is satirical. 

[Barb23]

Thanks Lottiedottie for sharing that article & yes I can picture any of the newly married Duggar kids writing it. Like we've said, in a course of hours they go from hand holding to kissing to doing the deed. No wonder this couple didn't have a clue. Without giving too much away, my favorite parts were when they showered separately after & if this "union" didn't produce a baby, they "may be forced to repeat this beautiful experience."

Actually I can picture Jessa yelling to Ben "what the hell you doing down there?"

Edited January 13, 2015 by Barb23

[kassygreene]

Yeah, but it's The Onion.  It's satire.  It's fiction.  It didn't happen.  It's like Kid Farm.  It's made up.  It doesn't even pass the truthiness test.

[Wellfleet]

Yeah, but it's The Onion.  It's satire.  It's fiction.  It didn't happen.  It's like Kid Farm.  It's made up.  It doesn't even pass the truthiness test.

 

First clue? This couple was married at "Holy Christ Almighty Lutheran Church." LOL!

[Barb23]

Yeah, but it's The Onion. It's satire. It's fiction. It didn't happen. It's like Kid Farm. It's made up. It doesn't even pass the truthiness test.

Even tho it's not real, I'm still sticking with my opinion that the newly married Duggar/Dillard/Seewald couples experienced some of the "issues" portrayed in the article. Somehow I could picture Jilly more in a high necked long sleeved cotton nightgown rather than a slinky Victoria's Secret number for her wedding night. But then again the Dillards figured things out quickly since she got pregnant right away. I think Benessa's encounter was over pretty quickly, probably as soon as the door closed. No time for candles, rose petals & romance there. As for the Smuggars, they had to read the gifted books & listen to the DVD's. After all, it took them four looong months for Anna to get pregnant.

Oh my, I really didn't mean to go in the direction I ended up with when I started posting. I'm blaming it on my new medication. I'm off to find some brain bleach.....

Edit: sorry, I meant the Smuggars listening to CD's, not DVDs.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Barb23

[3girlsforus]

Commenting on the response that Americans  need for cars is overblown....

 

It's pretty easy to say we are spoiled snobs to think it's necessary to have a car but the US isn't like Europe as far as where people live or access to public transportation. For many, if not most, Americans who do not live directly in the downtown of a major city, getting to work without a car is either extremely difficult or impossible. Where we live, which is quite near to a major city but not directly in the city itself, people commute 20 - 30 miles (some farther) each way to work with really no option for public transportation. Even if biking that kind of distance every day was an option, its' not like the highways have bike routes right on them. I know many people who take subways other option public transportation but the access is far enough away that they have to drive to access them. If you live directly downtown you can get away without a car. Most people in NYC for example don't own a car. But in general getting around in the US requires personal transportation.

[bigskygirl]

In response to Derick, Jill and the second vehicle issue.

 

For a while my husband and I had to depend on having one decent running vehicle. He was working the graveyard shift, and I was working during the day. We also had one decent running vehicle while he was on dialysis. I would sometimes take him to dialysis, drop him off, go home, and then pick him up later in the evening. Sometimes I would stay with him while he had his treatment, or he would go in by himself.

 

I remembered when we first got married. My husband was working seven nights a week. I missed him terribly, and yes at time, we only had his pickup and a motorcycle. I did not feel the need to drive him back and forth to work or try to have a meal with him while he was work. He needed his space, and I needed mine.

 

Imo, Jill needs to stop depending on Derick to make her happy. She is a married woman with a baby on the way. Derick needs his space esp. with all the stress he probably is feeling right now with a baby on the way and a seriously ill mother. In other words, there is a big difference between necessity of having one vehicle and total co-dependency on another person to make your life complete.

[trimthatfat]

I actually didn't get my license until my twenties because I lived in a major city with a great public transportation system. I took the bus and train everywhere, as did most of my friends.

 

I personally think that if you live in an area without reliable public transportation, are expanding your family, and can afford a second vehicle, you should get one. When Jill is sleep-deprived, she's not going to want to drop off and pick up Derick from work. She might lug the baby to his job for a while, but that will get old, too, when she has laundry she needs to tend to or when she just want to take a nap while the baby is sleeping. And honestly, I bet Derick won't mind having a lunch break where he can run errands and just get a little time to himself.

[MJDai]

It's a bit of a topsy turvy argument though:
We all have to have multiple cars per family unit because there is not alternative transportation available. There is no alternative transportation available because we have multiple cars per family.

To me, that's just odd and yes, is a very USA'ian attitude. I live in a fairly rural area, I had to cycle 7k to get to school from age 8 through 17. My mother(64) still cycles up to 17k to her work. Yes, on back country lanes so no highways involved because there is cycle-friendly infrastructure over here (NL's). But that infrastructure is available because we made it a priority (and kept doing bloody stupid things like cycle alongside densely trafficed roads until the city council got nervous enough to put in bikelanes).

Same goes for public transport. Why isn't it readily available? In rural areas that's kind of understadable but from suburbs there should be, unless there's the expectation that there will be cars. And then we're back to the original point.

 

ETA: That's not to say you should never own one or more cars. Do whatever works for you. But the argument made on the Jill/Derick thread that it was irresponsible or even unsafe not to have transportation at the ready 24/7 seemed a tad odd.

Edited January 14, 2015 by MJDai

[bigskygirl]

I would love to take public transportation for work, errands, etc. etc. I have eye damage which causes problems with driving. I have dry eyes, pain above the eyes, eye pain, blurry vision, and severe light sensitivity. I cannot drive in the dark and driving in any type of weather condition can be hard even with polarized prescription sunglasses on.

[3girlsforus]

Here's its illegal to ride your bike on highways because it's dangerous and stupid. 4 lanes of cars each way going 70 miles an hour is no place for a bike. All the bike lanes in the world don't change that. I don't live in a rural area. We have bike lanes on our more suburban roads but to get to place where the majority of people work require access to the highway system. Feel free to think we are lazy. That's a very European attitude. 

[bigskygirl]

I would not ride a bike where I live in fear of getting run over. I almost got hit by a girl on a bike who had run a red light while I was crossing the street. I usually have to drive around ten miles one way to get to work or five to seven miles to get to the nearest store.

[MJDai]

Sorry to hear that Bigskygirl. Over here the city arranges taxi services for those that can't drive or use public transportation. Not willy nilly and for everything mind you but for getting to/fro work, the weekly shopping, doctor's visits and such...

Uhm.. feeling a little emberassed about tooting the horn of my country. Here's the bad stuff: they just overhauled the entiremental health system without having another one in place so the weakest in my society have no idea what's going to happen to them. Also we're a bunch of racists.

Feel free to think we are lazy. That's a very European attitude. 

I don't think I implied you were lazy. If I did I apologize. I implied that you were without alternative options and that somehow it seems as though a lot of the self-worth in USA'ians seems to be tied up in the having of a car (or more than one) which makes the realizing of alternative options to having cars improbable.

[bigskygirl]

Thank you MJDai  I still can drive, but I try to avoid driving in certain weather conditions.

 

They try to get public transportation out where I live, but the county government does not seem to want it. People were willing to pay a little more in taxes, but no deal.

[Portia]

While living in a small town with no public transit, my husband and I had only one car for a period of about 18 months. I wasn't working at the time, but was home caring for three small children while my husband was at work. Some days I took him to work if I was going to need a car, but most of the time I just--gasp!--stayed home until the car was available.

 

Since they're wasting so much gas and putting so many miles on their car with all the back-and-forth, I still can't figure out why Jill and Derrick don't just buy an old second car. I think it's commendable to avoid car debt--we don't do that in my family, either--but we also aren't too proud to drive the kind of car we can afford. The Dillards should be able to find a driveable hoopty for $3,000 or so. 

[msblossom]

When I was first married my husband and I had only one car, but we lived in a major city with decent public transportation, he drove me to work every morning for 3 years and I took the bus home every evening. Even when I was single and had a car I took the bus each day -- no way did I want to pay $10 to park, now it's more like $25. We moved to another major, but smaller city 2800 miles across the country and I continued to get a ride into work from DH and take the bus home each evening until I got a job and went to grad school that was only a 10 minute walk from home -- even with a second car.

Grocery shopping and running errands with only one vehicle was a pain and yet we managed just fine and I look back at my younger self at how I would grocery shop sometimes at 5 am bc I didn't want to be bothered with it after a long day at work and I've always been an early riser/morning type person. Although I wouldn't do that now, lol!

Speaking of bikes, I know a handful of people who regularly commute to work on bikes and they love it! Our city is trying to become more bike friendly to commuters and although that's not something my husband and I plan to do we just had a conversation the other day about wanting to buy a couple hybrid bikes for exercise as we have some really nice smooth surface parks and trails with several miles to ride on within a fairly close distance of our home.

[KAOS Agent]

Public transportation is great, but it's important to remember that it's not a feasible option in many places. I think it's really easy for people in other countries to not understand the size of the US/Canada vs European countries. I've lived in multiple countries in Europe and yes, they have excellent transportation systems, but those places are also very highly concentrated in terms of population density. I will also say that I lived in the outer suburbs of one European capital and while the transport system existed, the bus showed up once every hour or two, took more than an hour to get to the edge of town where I had to connect to another bus/tram for an additional half hour ride into the city and it stopped running around 9 pm. Also, the city's bus stop was not the safest place to stand around waiting alone at night. I desperately wished I had a car while living there because it was really, really difficult to do any day to day stuff outside of basic commuting to school.

 

At present, I live in an extremely rural area (the nearest Walmart is 40 miles away). My state's area is the size of the entire United Kingdom, but its population is just over 600,000 and half the state is covered in mountains. There is just no way that a public transport system would be worthwhile or cost effective in that situation. However, we do have smaller community systems where vans pick up seniors at their homes and drive them to town for shopping. We also have a park and ride system which picks up miners from a couple places in town and shuttles them the 30 miles to the mines. It's not the kind of transport that many people think of when they think public transportation, but these systems do exist. However, most people still need a car to get to the grocery store or church or their child's school. I know that there is a whole thing about Americans and their cars, but there is a significant difference between people who live in NYC and the Mountain West or like the Duggars in semi-rural Arkansas.

[Absolom]

It's two miles from my house to the nearest public transportation.  The nearest grocery store is across the street from the bus stop.  It makes no sense for me to not drive since almost all my trips out are because I need to either buy something or go out of town.  

 

Regarding the US/European difference, I have a good friend who lives in Germany.  She has never learned to drive (never needed to know) and was baffled by the US talk of cars.  I kept asking her to visit and she did.  We toured LA.  One day was using public transit and the second and third with my car.  She laughed and said if nothing else the flight from NY to LA had really already answered her question, but trying to get to more than a few things on the transit system was just not effective or reasonable.  

[msblossom]

I absolutely agree, KAOS Agent. My husband and I lived in a rural community of less than 300 people for 4 years and the nearest small country store was at least 4 miles from our house and a tiny Kroger was 20 miles away. I would have gone bonkers with only one vehicle. Our nearest neighbor was 1/2 mile away in each direction. The closest public transportation was more than 60 miles away.

Public transportation is just not feasible in many parts of our country.

One of the benefits of living in a large city is having public transportation subsidized by your employer by 75%, it was so economical and the buses ran anywhere from every 10-15 minutes to every 30 minutes depending on the area of town you lived in and what time you took the bus or rail system.

[GEML]

I will say that I lived in the ex-urbs of DC and did the one car thing. We had educational debts (and I'm still betting Derick and Jill are paying for his MDiv) and a second car that would likely require small but constant repairs the way a car like that does (assuming you aren't a person who can handle those yourself) simply wasn't in the budget. Gas was cheap then, the way it is right now. Babies generally like to ride in the car.

Not everyone had to do the two car thing. We saved thousands of dollars and were able to get out of debt very quickly by taking this approach.

[BitterApple]

I wonder if the other couples we've seen on these shows only have one car as well. It would definitely explain why Jill, Erin and Alyssa Bates are climbing the walls because they're stuck at home all day.

[Mrsjumbo]

Thank you KAOS. It gets annoying when people assume Americans are lazy because we don't walk to work or school. Just the state of Texas is over 2 times the size of the UK.

[Jynnan tonnix]

Good point about a second, used car often needing constant repairs. We bought a beat-up pickup truck when we first bought our latest house two years ago as the house was a bit of a fixer-upper and between all the projects we anticipated in the house and yard (about an acre and a half and very sparse in landscaping of any kind or even actual grass...mostly weeds), we figured we needed something for the Home Depot/Lowe's runs. We paid $2500 for the truck, but have put a good $4000 in repairs into it over the past couple of years.

 

It's actually a third vehicle for us as it's not something you'd want to rely on for any sort of consistent transportation. Our house is quite convenient to several major highways, but it's also about 3 miles uphill on a winding, rural road from any direction. There are no sidewalks and very little visibility. You really don't see someone out walking their dog or whatever until you are practically on top of them and I'd be scared to death to have to navigate that hill on foot. There is actually a bus route once you get down to the main road, and a couple of supermarkets about a mile away at that point, but, again, it's really not feasible to do any shopping without a car and walk (or bike) the 4 miles to the store then trudge the 4 miles back uphill with a load of groceries. My husband needs his car at work as he has to drive here and there on a fairly regular basis, and even if we worked out a schedule for me to drive him in and have the car on certain days, it wouldn't help much for emergencies or even days where I might realize I forgot to buy a couple of things I needed.

[floridamom]

These young married girls are bored to death and climbing the walls because their only family experience was being one in a crowd of people all the time; an overly noisy house, chaos sorry, I don't think any of these homes operate as smoothly as they would like us to believe; and they are alone for the very first time in their lives; similar to someone constantly being alone at home, then suddenly moving into a fraternity dorm; and NEVER having any privacy to be alone; that also would be quite an adjustment; they also have their household completely set up an bought already, by friends and family wedding gifts; as I see their homes, they are modern, upscale, completely furnished and decorated..there is nothing for them to do at home, just keep it dusted. Another factor is they don't have a television either; nothing to keep them company and to listen to while they dust that furniture. These people have NO goals to work towards in their lives and households, holdings just how quickly they can conceive those kids and keep them coming. A see their lives as anti-climactic with nothing to look forward to ; just babies. This is just my opinion and I thank you for allowing me to post it. What do you think?

[Almost 3000]

and they don't read or have hobbies.

[trimthatfat]

If I were in my early twenties and had the luxury of being a stay at home wife, I'd take advantage of that free time. At the very least, I'd go volunteer somewhere so I'm not sitting around the house all day, staring at the wall. Alyssa Bates is 19 and already a stay at home wife/mother - I couldn't imagine being either of those so young. There's nothing wrong with that lifestyle, obviously, but at 19, I wouldn't be resigned to doing that if I had a choice. That's just me.

Edited January 15, 2015 by trimthatfat

[allonsyalice]

If I were in my early twenties and had the luxury of being a stay at home wife, I'd take advantage of that free time. At the very least, I'd go volunteer somewhere so I'm not sitting around the house all day, staring at the wall. Alyssa Bates is 19 and already a stay at home wife/mother - I couldn't imagine being either of those so young. There's nothing wrong with that lifestyle, obviously, but at 19, I wouldn't be resigned to doing that if I had a choice. That's just me.

 

I very much agree. I'd work on my novel, I'd get a cat probably. But also since I just turned 20 less than a month ago, I also literally cannot imagine being a stay at home wife and mother so soon?? like my mom had my brother at 18 and I'm still trying to wrap my head around that one. Nothing wrong with the lifestyle, but I already know that motherhood, and possibly marriage, isn't my route, and I am so so glad that I had a choice. 

[Barb23]

I will say that I lived in the ex-urbs of DC and did the one car thing. We had educational debts (and I'm still betting Derick and Jill are paying for his MDiv) and a second car that would likely require small but constant repairs the way a car like that does (assuming you aren't a person who can handle those yourself) simply wasn't in the budget. Gas was cheap then, the way it is right now. Babies generally like to ride in the car.

Not everyone had to do the two car thing. We saved thousands of dollars and were able to get out of debt very quickly by taking this approach.

I understand where you are coming from, but there is no reason THEY can't afford a second car (even if they are paying Derick's schooling). They have paychecks coming in from Wal-Mart, TLC, People magazine & wherever else. Do they even pay rent to Boob? For most of us, our mortgage payment or apartment rent is our biggest expenditure. Besides heating/cooling the Mcmansion, other utilities & food, what else do they pay for? Certainly not designer clothing for Jilly. Don't forget the tons of wedding & Dilly registry gifts as well as cash wedding gifts. Oh they definitely can afford a second car & I'm talking about a new loaded mini van, not the second hand car the rest of us can afford.

Florida mom - you nailed it!

[msblossom]

A new fully loaded mini-van for Jill? Yeah, that's not gonna happen. They very well may have $25k saved up, I don't know, but I would be surprised at them laying out more than $10k for a used one, which I think will happen shortly after the baby arrives.

[Barb23]

What makes me mad about this family is they still portray themselves as being the thrifty family when they have $$$$coming out the wahzoo. (Buying a plane for John Doofus comes to mind)

[Georgia]

One thing that people forget is that you need to be able to park your bike. You can put in all the bike lanes in the world, but if there's no bike rack, people are going to take their cars. I could and would love to use my bike for errands, but there's no bike rack at the market and I can't just lean my very expensive road bike (I do triathlons) against wall and go shop. 

 

Being a first-time mom can be isolating and is always exhausting. I would have hated to be housebound in a rural area, even though it's how I grew up. I was very happy to be in my suburban starter townhouse for my first, though I was also glad to move once our second set of twins arrived. We got my husband a commuter car when we had the first baby and didn't size up until we absolutely had to.

 

I wish the Duggars made better choices all around. I'm also a young, religious mom of a large family (different faith and fewer kids, though) and I'm sick of the comparisons. I went to college and my kids are in public schools and I don't perm my hair. Seriously, if I hear, "OMG, y'all are just like the Duggars!" one more time... 

[bigskygirl]

Jill will not be alone since her family will be near by.  Will she have share Jana, Joy Anna, and Jinger for babysitting duties with Michelle and Anna.

[GEML]

It also doesn't matter if Jim Bob has oodles of money if he's never passed it along to his children as he should. They could still be living off of their own salaries. We have Derick saying he has no student loan debt, but we honestly don't know if this is true. They are most likely paying for his MDiv, and perhaps some credits for Jill to get up to speed. I'd like to think the PEOPLE money went directly to them, but the family is so weird, no one could say for sure.

[msblossom]

Obtaining an MDiv in seminary can be done without loans where Derick is doing his online classes through. My husband and I were able to with careful budgeting and we managed to pay off our credit cards and car loan to boot.

Derick strikes me as being wise with his finances and I would be surprised if he and Jill didn't have a decent savings account. I doubt Derick will reach the point of being fanatical about finances to the tune of JB/Michelle though.

[bigskygirl]

Jim Boob would probably try to convince Derick to handle his money over to him so he can take care of his finances. He has to control his own children even after they get married.

[Absolom]

Derick's MDiv may be heavily subsidized since he was a Baptist missionary and says he's planning to do further mission work.  

[msblossom]

Well being that Derick's degree is in accounting and he's employed in that field, I would very much doubt Derick falling for that.

Does anyone think JB charges rent to Jill/Derick and Jessa/Ben? My guess is no.

[bigskygirl]

 They can pretend to be independent until the cows come home, but Jim Bob still has some control over Derick and Jill. Right now, these two are bringing in more money and ratings for TLC and the Duggar clan. They cannot afford to lose these two.

[GEML]

MsBlossom - I agree it can be done. My husband and I did something similar, but we did it by doing things like only having one car, not buying lunches (ie, Jill eating lunch with him every day, which IS excessive, but probably does save some money) etc.

I just think that there is this assumption that because JB and Michelle are well off that they are passing that down to their children. Yes, if this were remotely an ordinary family with any sense of fairness, Jill would easily be able to afford a second car IN ADDITION to living rent free in a house her father owned for several years while they got on their feet. But this family isn't remotely in the bounds of " normal" when it comes to boundaries and control, so who knows who has what, or how much?