Small Talk: The Prayer Closet

[HundFan]

Add my kudos to your boys, HFC!

 

And love and light to you, Suz. I know the time and love you poured into the tribute for your aunt will mean so much to many, not least of which, your beloved aunt herself.

Edited August 25, 2015 by HundFan

[Barb23]

I haven't been around much this past week - just minor health problems (compared to most here) but am feeling back to normal.

Congrats to all (incl relatives) who have gotten new jobs. Prayers to all who are battling not only health concerns but other problems as well.

Wander- I was shocked when I read your post & can't add much else.

There were times when I thought my husband was going to bail ship on me & my son due to my Rheumatoid Arthritis. I don't know this for sure, but think there have been many instances when my MIL has given him the riot act of you don't leave when times get tough & reminded him of the vows he took. And it has helped. She has major back problems & he saw how great his father took care of her when she couldn't. Both his brother & our SIL are cancer survivors & I think that seeing how they are there for each other has helped too. Mr Barb had to realize marriages aren't perfect, esp when health problems make appearances& he has. This was years ago & it never got to the point of him leaving or even saying he wanted to, but I think we were close to that point. Time helped & as we age, he's starting to have his own (minor) health problems & realizes it isn't always easy.

[RedPonyDriver]

Wanderwoman...I've been offline for awhile due to stuff...and man...I want to put my nice boots on (steel toed) and introduce your husband's shins and other parts to them. WHO THE FUCK DOES HE THINK HE IS???? Like really....stress is going to go down for him if he splits...what a putz (thinking other words too). I send you and Maisie some HUGE hugs...and a serious ass-kicking to the mister. I have friends in CO who'd happily take him up into the mountains and have a "chat" with him. 

 

Hugs and love from RPD

[Happyfatchick]

Update: my daughters husband left today for Nicaragua. He's coming back next Monday. (He's preparing for them this week.). They all plan to leave together September 9 then, for their new home.

My stomach is in my throat. This is almost more than I can bear to talk about. The money is not there. They have no funding and are taking my 4 grands and leaving. I'm sorry to drop a load of dung right in the middle of the PC. I don't even know who's holding the bleach, I've lost track.

And you probably need to stay a few car lengths back; I'm experiencing more rage than my head can safely hold. (Actually I'm having 3 alternating reactions. I go (swiftly) from red hot anger, to curled up in a fetal position sucking my thumb, to crying all over the place.

The best hope I have - and I'm being COMPLETELY sincere - is that he gets arrested this week while he's there alone. For what - - - I don't know. Not a clue. It's Nicaragua, it doesn't necessarily have to be a "real" charge. Drugs, drug trafficking, prostution, pimping, acting a fool in public, smiling too much... I don't CARE what the charge is. I just want him to go to jail and fight some ridiculous groundless offense for about 5 years. Just enough to make him think Nicaragua is hell.

Is it wrong to pray for that???

[Julia]

Update: my daughters husband left today for Nicaragua. He's coming back next Monday. (He's preparing for them this week.). They all plan to leave together September 9 then, for their new home.

My stomach is in my throat. This is almost more than I can bear to talk about. The money is not there. They have no funding and are taking my 4 grands and leaving. I'm sorry to drop a load of dung right in the middle of the PC. I don't even know who's holding the bleach, I've lost track.

And you probably need to stay a few car lengths back; I'm experiencing more rage than my head can safely hold. (Actually I'm having 3 alternating reactions. I go (swiftly) from red hot anger, to curled up in a fetal position sucking my thumb, to crying all over the place.

The best hope I have - and I'm being COMPLETELY sincere - is that he gets arrested this week while he's there alone. For what - - - I don't know. Not a clue. It's Nicaragua, it doesn't necessarily have to be a "real" charge. Drugs, drug trafficking, prostution, pimping, acting a fool in public, smiling too much... I don't CARE what the charge is. I just want him to go to jail and fight some ridiculous groundless offense for about 5 years. Just enough to make him think Nicaragua is hell.

Is it wrong to pray for that???

 

Yeah, probably?

 

OTOH, it's not wrong to pray for what you're really praying for, that people you love won't be put in danger by trusting someone they shouldn't.

 

I don't even know what to say to you. Except, I wish you peace, and I want something unfortunate to happen to your son in law.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Julia

[bigskygirl]

All I can say is wow! Is there anyone you can talk to since your grandchildren will be in danger if they go with daddy no brains (best nickname I can think of at the time.)

 

RedPonyDriver where were your friends at when my one sister-in-law was being a major pain.

[Love2dance]

Is it wrong to pray for that???

No, Happyfatchick, because all you are really praying for is the safety of your daughter and grandchildren. Wishing for something to keep your family here, and sending hugs to you.

[Satchels of gold]

Happyfatchick, I'm glad you posted, I've been wondering what the situation with her daughter stood. First and foremost make sure she has the embassy location and number and do your best to bite your tongue and be supportive. This is a hair brained scheme that will fall apart on its own accord, in very short order. If your daughter thinks she might get an "I told you so" she might be less likely to ask for help. I'm sure her love for her children is greater then her love for this guy. I really feel for you my ( fundie convert) sisters husband is full of grandiose ideas and has lead her down a path of financial ruin. But he is the head of the household even if she has a master's degree and he barely graduated high school. It amazing the stupid sh.. that God puts on his heart.

[GeeGolly]

Update: my daughters husband left today for Nicaragua. He's coming back next Monday. (He's preparing for them this week.). They all plan to leave together September 9 then, for their new home.

My stomach is in my throat. This is almost more than I can bear to talk about. The money is not there. They have no funding and are taking my 4 grands and leaving. I'm sorry to drop a load of dung right in the middle of the PC. I don't even know who's holding the bleach, I've lost track.

And you probably need to stay a few car lengths back; I'm experiencing more rage than my head can safely hold. (Actually I'm having 3 alternating reactions. I go (swiftly) from red hot anger, to curled up in a fetal position sucking my thumb, to crying all over the place.

The best hope I have - and I'm being COMPLETELY sincere - is that he gets arrested this week while he's there alone. For what - - - I don't know. Not a clue. It's Nicaragua, it doesn't necessarily have to be a "real" charge. Drugs, drug trafficking, prostution, pimping, acting a fool in public, smiling too much... I don't CARE what the charge is. I just want him to go to jail and fight some ridiculous groundless offense for about 5 years. Just enough to make him think Nicaragua is hell.

Is it wrong to pray for that???

Yup WOW! This sucks all around. Maybe, just maybe SIL will go and see the implausibility of it all, and come back and say that he has reassessed the situation, and for this reason & that,  he needs to call the whole thing off.

 

Warm & fuzzies for you HFC.

[lookeyloo]

Oh Happy, of course pray for their safety, and the embassy idea is great, and also see if you can get a copy of their documents, of your daughter and grandkids of course.  Could come in handy.  Hoping what GeeGolly says comes true.

[Happyfatchick]

:(((((((((

[Ownedbydogs]

Coming put of lurk mode to give HFC a big hug.  I also hope that your daughter quickly comes to her senses.  I will keep praying from afar and hoping for the best.

[JenCarroll]

Oh god, HFC. I don't even know what to say. I'm so, so sorry. Sending virtual hugs. And listen, you -- don't ever be sorry about dropping your problems in the Prayer Closet. It's what we're here for.

[questionfear]

HFC, I don't know if you've looked into this yet, but any chance you can sic homeland security on him? If he's traveling out of the country with little money into a volatile area, maybe you can ask them to investigate him further?

[Happyfatchick]

QuestionF, I haven't looked into that - I know the U.S. Is a little more dedicated to the sport, so I'm not sure what lies on the other end. There's so much murky water in THEIR future, it's hard to know what to "say" to HLS. I JUST DONT KNOW. there's SO MUCH uncertainty in this whole CF, I don't know where to go to alert who or for what??? I'm so out of my element!!!

On a much, much brighter note: my business has grown so much that I had to add another machine!!! I am astounded at this development! And it's a MONSTER - a beast with two heads. (Literally it's going to double my output, but that only brings me up to "normal" work for most people). Anyway - it's two machines with one computer. Haven't learned all about it yet, but think I'm going to love it!

So what I came to post was this: I always name my equipment (the other machines are Ruby, Pearl and Baby). And now I'm adding THELMA and LOUISE! Haaaaaaaaawww!!!!!

[Itsnotreality]

How embarrassing. Having an awful week and was in line ordering coffee and the cashier says "What can I put in that for you honey?" and I start balling. For some reason that little niceness was more than I could handle.

Anyway. Day by day. Just reminded me that just seeing/feeling the extended support system here is sometimes the most genuine lifeline. Venting, advice, virtual hugs, good and not so good news. It's like there is a 24/7 availability of someone who will call you honey.

Xxoo

[emma675]

Aw, Itsnotreality, I hope things get better for you! Feel free to vent away in here, we're here for you.

 

I'm having a crappy week myself and my new boss has made my job so unpleasant over the last few months that I started job hunting yesterday. I love the people I work with, but my new manager is making everything so awful that I now dread weekdays and I'm super stressed all the time. It's time to move on.

 

HFC, hugs, girl. I don't know what else you can do at this point.

[Love2dance]

I just love this forum and the people sharing so much of their lives here. But like others have said, I sure wish there was an "I support you" button and not just a "like" button. Hugs to all having struggles today.

[MonicaM]

Just this morning my husband and I were saying how we hoped this storm we've been in for the past few months will soon run out of rain.  I have nothing but compassion for everyone who posts here who are also enduring storms.  

[Ilovemylabs]

So...huh? The one girl escaped polygamy but was featured on the Sister Wives? She ran away from polygamy to run INTO polygamy??? And I thought Sister Wives was the one who got axed. Was it the other one - my five wives, maybe? Who was trying to set themselves up on YouTube?

Sorry I haven't posted in a few days.  Let me clear up my post.  The Sister Wives people wanted to meet with women who have escaped polygamy and then let their own kids have a discussion with them.  So Collene (Escaping Polygamy) was one of the girls who met with them.  She did NOT return to polygamy.  She argued very effectively against it.  The 'big difference' was that in Collene's polygamist family, the women and kids were abused and neglected, whereas the Cody Brown kids are supposedly are happy and well taken care of.

[Jenniferbug]

HFC, I'm so sorry. I'm hoping something prevents your daughter and grands from going :-(

Emma, I've heard it said that people don't leave jobs, they leave managers. Good luck with your job search!

Hoping things turn around for the rest of you who are struggling right now.

[amitville]

For the last couple of days, i have read this thread and have come to see   my sweet friends are enduring so many struggles and i have no answers, solutions , words of advise  so i am sending a big ((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))))

Edited August 26, 2015 by amitville

[bigskygirl]

{{{HUGS}}} everyone. I will be so happy when August is over. I have been waiting five weeks for the treadmill stress test, and I hope the heart specialist can find out what the heck is going on. I was diagnosed with severe sleep apnea so here comes the CPAP machine/mask. Feeling like crap on and off for two and a half years because an idiot doctor tells me I am fine after a treatment to zap away my thyroid cells. Well news flash peaches, I have been feeling more crappy and my quality of life has not improved because you said it would. The treatment took, and I finally got a great doctor who knows what he is doing. Too bad, I cannot say the same thing about you moron.

 

Thanks for letting me rant everyone! We have a great group of posters on here.

[Happyfatchick]

Big sky, sleep apnea is a BIG DEAL! It can affect you in so many ways that you would never suspect. Don't fight with that machine - it will make you happy in the long run!!!

[bigskygirl]

I had a mask put on me when I had my sleep study. The sleep technician told me they usually wait at least three hours of sleep apnea signs before putting the mask on a patient. It was a little strange wearing it, but I am willing to give it a try because I cannot remember the last time I had a good night sleep.

[emma675]

bigskygirl, make sure the new doc tests Free T3, Free T4 and doesn't go by TSH. You're an autoimmune gal like me (I had Graves and Hashi's), so those Frees are the critical ones to look at when dosing thyroid meds. I had to go through 4 endos who all said I was "fine" because my numbers looked "good" before I found one who knows what she's doing. Oh, also, have them regularly test your Graves antibody levels to make sure things aren't kicking back into gear again. A lot of people have to have several rounds of RAI to totally kill off their thyroid (those little buggers can grow back).

Edited August 26, 2015 by emma675d

[Ilovemylabs]

I had a mask put on me when I had my sleep study. The sleep technician told me they usually wait at least three hours of sleep apnea signs before putting the mask on a patient. It was a little strange wearing it, but I am willing to give it a try because I cannot remember the last time I had a good night sleep.

My hubby has sleep apnea and at first (years ago) I thought it was like sleeping with Darth Vedar because the machine made so much noise (but LESS noise than his snoring!).  But the new machines are quiet and he sleeps well and so do I.  Sleep apnea can be dangerous so get that machine if your MD says so!

[wanderwoman]

A year ago, I was eagerly awaiting the birth of my twins. Hubby had been away on a pretty big fire and we had a reunion of sorts when he got home. It was always that way- one of us being gone always had an air of excitement because we couldn't wait to be back together again. It was a feeling I always considered to be good.

What I didn't know, one year ago, was that in just 365 days, I would exoerience: the death of a child during the second trimester, a hospitalization to maintain the second twin, a premature birth with months of worry and stress, watching my daughter almost die twice, finding out my child was deaf, finding out I had a cancer related to my pregnancy, and then, that my dear husband, the rock of my life, would decide it was all too much.

In some ways, I feel a commiserate spirit with Anna Duggar. She didn't do anything, despite what her faith and family might tell her: and, yet, her husband is now gone and she is left behind. That's a disgusting feeling. As I sit here in reflection, I keep thinking, "what if it weren't just Maisie and me? What if I had four children?" I can't imagine. I'm finding it hard to remember to eat and take care of my own child. Every *thing* in my home is a Pandora's Box of memories. Does Anna have that same sick feeling? The feeling that the men we married weren't who we thought we were and, if that can be true, what else are we wrong about? That scary, dark feeling that we should've noticed and should've done something? Then, I look at my beautiful baby girl - the real hero in our family. She handled it all. Ignorance is bliss and I desperately hope she remembers none of this; but, pain is pain and she is here. She reminds me that I have a job to do and unlike some men (not all), I don't have the option of quitting this child and her future. So, as countless women have done before, I will suck it up and be the mom I promised her I'd be when I was sitting at the side of her isollette. I begged for the chance to raise her and now I have it. This is where the rubber meets the road. Am I ready?

I speak to Anna: let's show our girls how women handle this and let's show the boys what women can do. It's not the time to be shrinking violets. It's time to hold our heads up for ourselves and, if we need to, hold our child's hand like a life raft. One moment. One minute. One hour. One day at a time. I can do that. You can do that.

To Anna's parents: I don't have family. I'm not as lucky as some. You have a daughter who desperately needs you to lift some if the burden and allow her to feel how she feels. Put your religion and your pride on the back burner and focus on making as many moments as possible easier on your daughter. You had her faith and trust in choosing her partner- now it's time to earn it. Put her and your grandchildren first. Allow them their feelings without shame or judgement. In fact, saying nothing is sometimes better. Listen. Love. Live.

To the Duggars: Josh needs to learn what it is like to lose everything so he can appreciate getting it back. Despite what you thought were your best efforts, your son failed. What you did or didn't do is sort of irrelevant now. It's done. Do better next time and pour your love into the four babies who didn't have any choices in this. Tell Anna she's worth your devotion and do not waver from her. Your son is allegedly in safe hands and has some tough choices to make. My husband does, too. But, we can't concern ourselves with their choices because there are children who need more than their fathers can give for now. Love. Listen. Live.

[ChocolateAddict]

Beautifully written, wanderwoman.  

[Honeycocoa]

Oh WanderWoman, I hope you have help. I am really hoping that you have lots of friends to be with you and Maisie through all this.  I so hope that you are not alone.  And honestly, I hope your husband isn't either. That he visits some old friends and family who tell him that this isn't who he is, that walking out on a  cancer stricken wife and newborn is pathetic. And if that doesn't work, well, I wish you reliable child support payments.  I wish you good friends and good health. hugs!

 

And you're right, I wish Anna good friends too.

 

HappyFatChick, with any luck at all your son in law will realize he's in over his head pretty quick.  And I second the suggestion for keeping copies of the family passports and contact information for the embassy close at hand. If they actually all go there, you can contact the embassy yourself, just to give them a heads up on the situation.  Do your grandchildren know how to reach you, if they have to ? Your full legal name, address, phone number and  email?  They should memorize that  - have them sing it.  Any child who has memorized a 26 letter alphabet can learn a ten digit phone number.

 

A while back someone was looking for finding a new job advice. The website Ask a Manager is fantastic for that. Highly recommended.

[Love2dance]

.

What I didn't know, one year ago, was that in just 365 days,..........

____________________________________________________________________________________

WANDERWOMAN, that was one of the most poignant posts I have ever read. And with all you are going through, that you still have time for compassion for others like Anna is amazing. I sense a new strength in you, and just know you are absolutely going to be the mommy Maisie needs and deserves. I join Honeycocoa (and I know other fellow Small Talk posters) in hoping so much that since you don't have family, you have some support system to help you. Wish I could be there to help.

Meanwhile sending you healing thoughts, love and hugs.

ETA...so frustrating..sometimes the quote feature works on my iPad and sometimes it doesn't. This time it didn't. Ugh.

Edited August 27, 2015 by Love2dance

[Micks Picks]

Wanderwoman, so good to hear from you.  I think you are geographically isolated as well as having no family, so this is so tough.   Too bad those of us in need of family, for as little as to be checked up on once in awhile, don't all live nearby.  I don't need too much too often but a little can make a big difference.  And I can offer things too.  Nonsense with the man.  No one should have to tell him what a shit he is.  He has to know it and be forever blighted by it.   His problem not yours.

[Wellfleet]

Update: my daughters husband left today for Nicaragua. He's coming back next Monday. (He's preparing for them this week.). They all plan to leave together September 9 then, for their new home.

My stomach is in my throat. This is almost more than I can bear to talk about. The money is not there. They have no funding and are taking my 4 grands and leaving. I'm sorry to drop a load of dung right in the middle of the PC. I don't even know who's holding the bleach, I've lost track.

And you probably need to stay a few car lengths back; I'm experiencing more rage than my head can safely hold. (Actually I'm having 3 alternating reactions. I go (swiftly) from red hot anger, to curled up in a fetal position sucking my thumb, to crying all over the place.

The best hope I have - and I'm being COMPLETELY sincere - is that he gets arrested this week while he's there alone. For what - - - I don't know. Not a clue. It's Nicaragua, it doesn't necessarily have to be a "real" charge. Drugs, drug trafficking, prostution, pimping, acting a fool in public, smiling too much... I don't CARE what the charge is. I just want him to go to jail and fight some ridiculous groundless offense for about 5 years. Just enough to make him think Nicaragua is hell.

Is it wrong to pray for that???

 

No, because in the best of situations, you wouldn't really want that. But this is not the best of situations. And your SIL is not the brightest of individuals either. Getting arrested or having some other thoroughly-disagreeable deal happen is the only thing that might stop him now. All you want to do is protect your daughter and the grands. Completely understandable. 

[NextIteration]

Beautiful sentiments WanderWoman, you sound better and like you're ready to fight and carry on.   Hugs.

 

HFC, take the sound advice about the documents and embassy stuff, I hope some sense hits your silly SIL when he sees what he's in for and how unprepared he actually is.

 

bigskygirl, thinking of you and it sounds like you too have gotten some good advice.

 

♥♥♥ For all.

[GeeGolly]

Wow Wander, I could feel heartache, betrayal, strength and hope in each word I read. I wish we could all descend on you with our love, kindness and help.

 

Your advice to Anna, her parents, and JB & M are priceless and I hope they somehow read it and feel the genuineness it reveals.

Edited August 27, 2015 by GeeGolly

[GeeGolly]

Today would have been my Dad's 85th birthday, and in 10 days it will be the 2nd anniversary of his death. It's weird, this year his birthday feels harder than a year ago.

[frenchtoast]

{{Hugs}} GeeGolly. 

 

Wanderwoman, I am so very sorry that you've been so profoundly disappointed by someone you loved and trusted. It's not you, it's him. I fervently hope you have a few good friends nearby you can call on to help get some meals ready and simple chores. Ask them. Ask them to come over and delight in Maisie. Ask them to come and watch a movie with you. You are a warm, kind, thoughtful, strong woman and you deserve the best.

 

_________

Rancide posted this in the Josh and Anna topic:

 

Honestly, most rehabs in this country are a scam.  I get that AA/12-step have helped many people, and I don't begrudge those people their success or think it shouldn't be one treatment option, but the relentless focus on AA-type models in this country is facilitated by an outdated puritanical outlook towards addiction (you're a bad person!  It's your fault you can't stay clean!  You just don't want it badly enough!), an ignorant court system (tons and tons of people at AA/NA/etc are there on court order sent by judges who have bought in to the idea that addiction is the addict's "fault"), a failing health care system (doctors and drugs too expensive for you!  AA is CHEAP), and inertia (what other field of physical/mental/behavioral health is still using a model largely unchanged from the 1930s?).

Bottom line:  addiction treatment in this country is a mess.  I agree with you that the place Josh is going isn't too far off from the norm.  And that's a really, really sad thing.

As the sister of an addict, YES! Though I wouldn't call rehab a sham so much as an emergency patch measure. So little is understood because no one wants to study or learn because it's easy to make addiction something shameful. And it enrages me. Ignorant courts? Yes, but also easier for the justice system to say, "You are a lesser human being and don't deserve any better." Criminalizing addiction is shameful, not addiction. Jails are not a place to get well, and not just from addiction, but mental illness too. There's plenty of things I get angry about, but the mental health/addiction situation makes me angry to tears. 

 

I've been watching Elementary since the first season, and Sherlock is certainly a unique person and the way he deals with his addiction is different than others. But it's been fascinating watching something like addiction discussed and presented in a mature and thoughtful way. But man, this season finale broke my heart.

Sherlock relapses, which only goes to show it's not how smart you are, or how strong you are, or the size of your support system, or how many meetings you attend.

Addiction is cruel and relentless to not only those that suffer from it, but for the loved ones, too.

[lookeyloo]

Wanderwoman - healing takes time in all areas.  Be patient with yourself and take help that is offered.  Thanks for catching us up.

[emma675]

Wanderwoman, you are a kickass lady and Maisie is going to grow up to be an awesome kiddo because she has you as a role model. One day at a time, and some days may be harder than you think you can stand, but you're going to be fine. We're all rooting for you.

 

GeeGolly, hugs.

[Itsnotreality]

I know it's been said on here before, but Wanderwoman I hope you are journaling, not just for your own benefit, but because you are a great writer and I am sure at some point, whether blog/articles/book, others would appreciate your words as much as we do.

[Love2dance]

Today would have been my Dad's 85th birthday, and in 10 days it will be the 2nd anniversary of his death. It's weird, this year his birthday feels harder than a year ago.

Hugs to you GeeGolly. May his memory comfort you, even as you miss him.

[Rancide]

I have strongly negative feelings about missionary work that I won't get into here because they're sort of beside the point, but if it's any consolation at all, I--as a single woman with no male companion--lived in Nicaragua for about 6 months and did a lot of charity work while I was there.  It's really not that bad.  Is it more dangerous than the US?  Yes.  Is there a high likelihood of death or dismemberment?  No.  It's a "don't be dumb" rule.  Don't walk around alone after dark if you're a woman, don't wear jewelry, don't turn down deserted streets you don't know anything about, don't talk to strange me on buses.  

 

I had 0 problems.  The only person I knew who did have one was someone who made the bad decision to walk the same way to work through a poor neighborhood every day and then the doubly bad decision to stop and chat with someone for 15 minutes one day before heading on his way.  And all that happened to him is that he got his iPod (which he shouldn't have been carrying), passport (which he shouldn't have been carrying) and wallet stolen.  They actually recovered the passport once he told the police he was American.  (He's Asian-American, and the police didn't immediately realize he was a US citizen and were less motivated to help him before they found out).

 

Further to this point, while I realize this is not super-reassuring, most people intent on doing serious harm would REALLY rather not fuck with Americans because the American consulate WILL come down on your government to come get you.  Killing Americans is a pretty good way to get your nice little commercial enterprise that had been operating freely with only occasional payoffs to the local police shut down with the full wrath of the armed military.

 

I'm sorry your family is leaving, and I'm not trying to minimize that or question your questioning of it.  I don't know them (or you).  Just saying I really wouldn't spend nights up all night thinking they're going to get killed.  

 

You're much more likely to get kidnapped and taken to the ATM to empty your account than you are to be raped or murdered.  Not that being robbed is pleasant or okay.  But it's better than being raped or murdered.

[Liz Tudor]

I'm responding to the several posts about addiction treatment. Atlantic magazine had a great article this spring, found here.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-irrationality-of-alcoholics-anonymous/386255/

What was even more interesting were reader comments in the issue after the article was published. Just sharing, because I thought some of y'all might find it interesting. AA (and other 12 step programs modeled after it) is hardly a "one size fits all" program. It was a very insightful read.

[JenCarroll]

{{{{{Wanderwoman}}}}}

[HundFan]

wanderwoman you've gotta change the "wander" to "wonder." Your post brought tears to my eyes, not just for the pain and sadness that have so unfairly been your constant companions for so long -- but for the amazing strength and courage and grit that is you. I know you're just struggling to get through each day, but you are a genuine inspiration to me. If you were here, I'd throw you a parade with fireworks. Lucky, lucky girl, your Maisie. 

[galax-arena]

Just bringing this over from the Josh and Anna thread:

I'm not lesbian, but my older daughter - whom my husband and I have always loved and adored - is, and if the suggestion is that women become lesbians simply as an "option" because they can't access men,  I strongly disagree. This notion ventures perilously close to labelling being LGBTQ as "lifestyle choices," not the genetically-driven and immutable sexual orientations most educated professionals now correctly consider them to be. I believe there's certainly a spectrum of sexual orientation, running from strongly straight to gloriously gay. And I'm not discounting that some people - regardless of era - might experiment with a quick dip outside their usual pond. But I will never buy that people decide, simply as a concession to opportunity and convenience, to become genuinely lesbian (or gay, etc.); rather, they opt out of living in a manner that betrays their true selves and instead come to feel safe enough to be the authentic people nature (or God) built them to be.

While the other person's wording might not have been the best, I don't think that's what they meant. There's the whole distinction between sexual orientation and sexual behavior to take into consideration. Anti-gay Christians like to conflate the two, but they're very, very different. I don't think that having a lack of access to men would "turn" girls gay, but it could conceivably lead to more same-sex behavior. It's why we might see increased same-sex activity in single-sex prisons or schools. Ben Carson used situational same-sex behavior in prisons and said how it proves that homosexuality is a choice. But Ben Carson is an idiot. 

 

And honestly, there is some question as to how fixed people's sexual orientations can be. There is still a lot of research going on when it comes to the idea of sexual fluidity. I think a lot of people in the LGBT community are resistant to this because we think it gives ammo to anti-gay bigots who insist that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice. But, I mean, regardless, it's obviously not something that people deliberately, voluntarily choose, so in that sense it's still not a choice. But I can see how people would use it to try and "pray the gay away." I know a lot of Southern Baptist leaders who have grudgingly accepted that it's not a choice in the true sense of the word but insist that they still think God can change a person's orientation. So yes, to that end, it's unfortunate.

[kokapetl]

As a man, I don't think men are flexible. I like men and only men, and there's not a thing that I or anyone else could do to change that.

[kathe5133]

I'm responding to the several posts about addiction treatment. Atlantic magazine had a great article this spring, found here.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-irrationality-of-alcoholics-anonymous/386255/

What was even more interesting were reader comments in the issue after the article was published. Just sharing, because I thought some of y'all might find it interesting. AA (and other 12 step programs modeled after it) is hardly a "one size fits all" program. It was a very insightful read.

Very interesting and things that I believe and have actually said.  This article put it in to words better than I could.  The comments by the AA proponents reminded me of the comments that the Duggar lovers post to anyone who disagrees with them!  I couldn't get through them, they made my head hurt.  Magical thinking.  It makes me want to scream.  But in the case of alcholol addiction people are dieing and yet the addiction specialists shake their heads and blame the "disease" as if it were a living, breathing organism capable of being convincing and/or forcing people to the liquor store. 

Edited August 27, 2015 by kathe5133

[Jellybeans]

Wanderwoman, I was relieved to hear from you. For some reason I feel I know you. I lost my daughter, my husband, have no family, pffft.... and it is a dark and lonely place to be.

But you do have family. Maisie. The bond between a mother and daughter is unique, tight and full of unmeasureable joy. Perhaps it is why I am having such a hard time with the loss of my daughter. I can't get over it but I got over "the love of my life" rather quickly. :-) In time, you will too.

I wish I could help you.

[galax-arena]

As a man, I don't think men are flexible. I like men and only men, and there's not a thing that I or anyone else could do to change that.

Well, not everyone is fluid. But I don't think we need to fit everyone into the same neat one-size-fits-all package and say that that means that no one is. I mean, I get the wariness that people - especially a lot of gay women - have with the idea of sexual fluidity, because there is a history of not taking women's sexuality very seriously. People are very, very invested in the idea that the dick reigns supreme, so the thought that some women might not want the D (and that they never ever wanted the D) is anathema. Sexual fluidity could be used as ammo against that, and that sucks.

 

For me, personally, I'm not sure if my sexual preferences changed over time or if they were always there and simply latent/repressed. Honestly, usually I go with the latter because it's simpler. People find it easier to wrap their minds around the thought that I was just repressing myself all these years. But if I'm to be perfectly honest with myself, I'm not sure if that's true. Or at least, it's not 100% true. My romantic orientation, I think, was always geared towards women, so I was definitely repressing that much, at least. But I'm not entirely sure about my sexual orientation. And it took me a while to broach the possibility of being gay because I just didn't relate to the predominant narrative in the media, which is that LGBT people have always known that they were different. So in one way, it's a bit ironic: the "born this way" rhetoric that we've so successfully incorporated into modern western culture in an attempt to allow LGBT people to be true to themselves is in a way responsible for my feeling like I can't be true to myself and my sense of history/identity. Don't get me wrong, I understand why that type of rhetoric was/is necessary, considering the history of homophobia in this country, and it's a button that I still push myself; I'm not going to get into the subtleties and nuances of potential sexual fluidity with a homophobe, y'know? But it's my fervent hope that at some point we'll be able to move beyond that.

 

My (bi) friend and I were talking about what we think our lives would have been like if we lived in a previous era where people just didn't talk about this sort of thing out in the open. Neither of us realized that we were into women until relatively late. My friend said that she probably would have just married a guy and never have come to terms with her sexuality. I said that I probably wouldn't have married at all, because even though I used to find guys physically/sexually attractive, even then I never wanted to be in an actual relationship with them.

Edited August 27, 2015 by galax-arena