S05.E05: Self Help

[LexiconDevilOne]

On the other hand, it was mercifully dim during the sex scene. Eugene was watching? With what, night vision goggles?

It could have been completely black, and It'd be too much. I never want to hear or see Abraham and Rosita getting it on again.

[GaT]

Yes... as in the 'slaughtered' part of my post, was it confusing? Sorry about that, if it was. I was making two different points.

My first was she was not armed (or had any way to protect herself and her family during a zombie apocalypse), and her family was attacked (raped, as per Talking Dead) by 'friends,' which is why Abraham killed them.

My second point was, then she ran off, afraid of Abraham, and was slaughtered by walkers.

None of it made any sense to me.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was confused by the "raped by his group" part, I thought you were saying that's how they died. I didn't remember hearing anything about them being raped, but your second post says it's per Talking Dead which I didn't watch. You would think something like that would be worth a mention on the show.

[RedheadZombie]

Seriously, Abraham's wife/kids...were raped by his group, one that he trusted, but they had no gun, or way to protect themselves during a zombie apocalypse...that is the very definition of red shirt. She took herself and her kids away from the one person who fought tooth and nail to protect them, only to get herself/kids slaughtered, makes no sense to me at all.

 

The ignorance is staggering.  Kind of like Michonne's boyfriend and friend being too high to protect Andre.

 

I don't care if they stick with the comics or not; I care that the story makes sense within the TV show, and that we are shown things during the episodes instead of having to get explanations from the Talking Dead or from people who have read the comics. The problem with doing things exactly like the comics, is that doesn't always translate well to TV. We should be able to figure things out without additional material.

 

While there have been a couple of times I learned something from TTD that I missed on the episode, I thought they tried to make several things clear in this episode.  I assumed the woman and children were his family, but Abraham also wears a wedding ring and the son had red hair.  Also, Ellen (his wife) was wearing a very distinctive head band that they showed on the dead woman.  He also called her Ellen, and there were two small bodies nearby.  When he killed the man in the grocery store, the man was loudly breathing and didn't look like any walker we've seen, so he was human.  Also, Abraham made a comment to Glenn about how easy it is now to kill, and it sure didn't sound like he meant killing walkers, which would reinforce that he did kill the five guys in the store.

[kikaha]

The zombies move so slowly, and are so easy to kill, I don't understand:

 

1) How they were able to over-run human society, the world over;

 

2) Why the humans can't defeat them now. 

 

Any insights? 

[Nashville]

The zombies move so slowly, and are so easy to kill, I don't understand:

 

1) How they were able to over-run human society, the world over;

 

2) Why the humans can't defeat them now. 

 

Any insights?

• The zombies did have a pretty decent surprise factor going for them at the initial onset.
• The current level of ease in dispatching walkers came with a LOT of practice.
• Between figuring out #1 and #2, the zipperheads gained a monstrous numerical advantage.

[RedheadZombie]

I found it interesting that Tara actually encouraged Eugene to keep his destruction of the bus a secret.  After she was so proactive in being open and honest about her affiliation with the governor.  

 

Maybe the difference is she's willing to suffer the consequences of her own actions, but is protective enough to warn Eugene.

 

 

I love Tara. I always liked her, but grew to love her when she first imprinted on Glenn.

 

Ahhh, she does follow after him like a baby duckling.

 

I'm wracking my brain, but I can't figure out how Eugene was responsible for Bob's death. 

 

When I saw the title of this episode, I snickered like a teenage boy and thought it was a euphemism for masturbation.  I guess it was.

 

I was making some wild assumptions tonight.  When Abraham and Glenn were at the window, I thought Abraham was going to turn and stab Glenn with the knife.  After catching Eugene spying, I thought Tara was going to offer pity sex, or just strip for him.  The mass of stink - I had the sickening thought that it was going to be a concentration camp whose victims had turned.

[Helena Dax]

Not bad at all. They aren't my favourite characters but the episode was fun. I guess the fact the they could smell the zombie horde means it's a HUGE concentration of zombies and it was crazy to even think about going through it.  And Eugene... Well, most of us see that coming. No wonder Abraham crushed his face. Did they say on TTD if he was still alive? He shouldn't be, I heard a loud, suspicious "crack", but you never know.

 

The biggest surprise to me was Abraham's backstory. I thought he had been doing Army things since the beginning of the zombie apocalypse.

 

I'm starting to really like Tara. 

[GreyBunny]

I guess the fact the they could smell the zombie horde means it's a HUGE concentration of zombies and it was crazy to even think about going through it. 

 

I wish the camera had moved in for a few seconds and made the horde more clear.  The walkers on the road were obvious but I had to look for a bit to figure out if the shapes in the fields were zombies or something else.

[Nashville]

I guess the fact the they could smell the zombie horde means it's a HUGE concentration of zombies and it was crazy to even think about going through it.  

Upon re-viewing, I'm going back to my initial impression the structure was a slaughterhouse. In which case they may have been smelling hundreds of rotting animal carcasses, not the walkers. Which, of course, means you have to make the standard TeeVeeLand assumption these penned-up animals somehow stayed alive long enough (a year or better) to get killed fairly recently, if they're not already dried-up and still stinky.

[CrashTextDummie]

This wasn't an earth shattering episode, but I liked it well enough. I liked the whole season so far well enough and think the show is markedly improved. The pacing is really strong IMO, compared to the struggles the show used to have in that department. The Carol cliffhangers work for me. The single story episodes all seem to serve a purpose at least (which wasn't true last season, with the Daryl/Beth snoozefest and the insufferable Governor arc). We seem to be stuck with Abraham for a while for better or worse and his character desperately needed to be fleshed out. It doesn't hurt that Rosita and Eugene got some meatier material in the process.

 

I didn't mind the ambiguity of what happened to Abraham's family at all. I thought the gist of it was clear as far as the impact on Abraham was concerned and I didn't need a point by point explanation for why his family left him. The show isn't known for subtlety so I appreciate when stuff is left to the imagination. Suffice it to say the guy is clearly unhinged. Has been for a while, with only his "mission" keeping him from cracking completely. I found it believable that he'd buy into Eugene's BS, and I find it believable that people would follow his leadership in turn.

 

Eugene is a complete douche nozzle (huge surprise there...), but at least he's hilarious. His dialogue had me laughing throughout the episode which is a nice change of pace on a show where everyone is INTENSE. ALL. THE. TIME.

 

Keep rocking, show, I like you better than ever.

[bosawks]

So if you can kill a Walker via hose now I figure by the end of the season you'll be able to dispatch one with a well timed insult.

[queenanne]

I wonder if it's an FCC thing. Like perhaps they could only have so many rape scenes per season or something and they used up their allotment with Carl & Beth.

 

That's my guess too except technically wasn't Carl last year/season?  No big if I'm wrong, I just like to keep this stuff straight in my head.  But yeah, if you only get two "hard F-word" cusses/season, I can imagine a limit to the amount of sexual violence talk. 

 

 

Also, Abraham made a comment to Glenn about how easy it is now to kill, and it sure didn't sound like he meant killing walkers, which would reinforce that he did kill the five guys in the store.

 

I thought that was intended as a bit o'heavy-handed metaphor for the Three Questions.

Edited November 10, 2014 by queenanne

[StatMom]

So if you can kill a Walker via hose now I figure by the end of the season you'll be able to dispatch one with a well timed insult.

And then a withering look. 

[ParadoxLost]

It seems illogical in retrospect, but my initial reaction was that Abraham killed those guys in the grocery store over supplies.

 

I blame it on being from the South and in winter if the news reports a possibility of snow flurries, everyone converges on the grocery stores and buys all the bread, water, and peanut butter like the ZA is coming and you will never have electricity or leave your home again.  So I think I just assumed that in an actual ZA that blood would flow. 

 

In retrospect, the wife looked more disheveled than Abraham so they likely were telegraphing an attack but the show didn't have enough of my attention that I picked up on it.

 

As for episode structure,  I think that this structure works very well when you are building to a pivotal moment; but they need to realize that doesn't necessarily mean every pivotal moment in a every storyline justifies its own episode.  It was the right call not to split focus for the Hunters/Bob by checking in with Beth and Carol/Daryl.  But Beth's story and Abraham/Eugene really had nothing comparable to justify the focus.  It also probably would have worked out a little better if they weren't all in a row.

[feverfew]

I really liked this episode. Sometimes I think Rick is too un-unhinged compared to what has happened to him and his "people", and compared to what he has done to other people. I liked seeing that sort of mental break-down Abraham had; I thought it was way more realistic than Rick's supposed moral superiority.

 

Why didn't they make it more clear what happened in Abraham's flashback? I shouldn't have to watch the Talking Dead and read the spoiler here 

Rewatching closely and it's still not clear what happened to Abe's family. They're all neat and clean, not a hair out of place, no tear-stained faces or ripped clothes to understand.

 

. They're just huddling by a counter. That doesn't tell us much.

I haven't read this far into the comics, but I thought it was pretty clear what had happened: Neither Ellen or the children were "neat and clean, not a hair out of place, no tear-stained faces or ripped clothes" - in fact I thought they looked really banged up. Ellen's blouse is ripped half-way down her stomach, and both she and the girl had big bruises on their faces. Combining this with Abraham's "We're safe now" I didn't need anymore confirmation of what had happened; in fact, I was happy they went with subtle. I don't need to see rape on my screen. 

 

 

But, I really wish we got a better sense with what happened with those guys he killed.  If it was just a regular disagreement and he snapped, it makes sense.  But, if those were some robbers or rapists, and he fought them off, then what his wife did was just dumb.  She would have rather taken her kids and gone out alone, without any protection?  Or was it just a suicide?  Either way, I felt bad for the kids, but no sympathy for the wife.

I think it was suicide. I think it makes the best sense in the context of Abraham trying to commit suicide too. (Otherwise you're right, and it would make her dumber than dumb).

Edited November 10, 2014 by feverfew

[kikismom]

I am reading a number of comments that people enjoyed AF's backstory. or that some would enjoy Rosita's backstory.

 

I would agree...if we had a series of volumes we could get deep into as we wished.

But this is a TV program that has only 16 episodes.

 

We still don't have a backstory for Sasha do we? Or Tyreese? And I have opinions and feelings for those characters based on what I do know.

We got the backstory on Terminus--Gareth, Mary, Albert, everybody--in 2 minutes at the open, and 2 minutes at the end.

We got enough backstory on the fruitpeople in 1 minute that we cared and still think they would have been good characters to keep.

We got very little on Bob---and still don't know what was in the freakin' box!--yet it was enough to care.

Speaking only for myself, I did not need last night's "revelations" to take up an entire episode. Not with this short a season.

[Ellaria]

As for episode structure,  I think that this structure works very well when you are building to a pivotal moment; but they need to realize that doesn't necessarily mean every pivotal moment in a every storyline justifies its own episode.  It was the right call not to split focus for the Hunters/Bob by checking in with Beth and Carol/Daryl.  But Beth's story and Abraham/Eugene really had nothing comparable to justify the focus.  It also probably would have worked out a little better if they weren't all in a row.

 

Agree. For whatever reason, these writers have a difficult time maintaining interest in the episodes that are more character-centric. The "split group tactic" didn't work for me last season and isn't working for me now. I understand that writing for a large cast presents certain issues but not every character can stand on their own. Abraham's story could have been told in a different way at a different time.

 

I can only imagine that the writers thought that the shocking (!) reveal of Eugene's deception warranted an entire episode devoted to Abraham and how/why he decided protect Eugene. Since it was suspected (known) that Eugene was a liar, the whole narrative structure of the episode was problematic. Couple that with the missing bits of information about Abraham's family and their deaths and I am left wondering why this was made a stand-alone episode.

 

Maybe I don't care enough about Abraham but this episode didn't give me reasons to care. He seems to have lost his tank top so there is that. Maybe Rosita can give him her cap so we don't have to look at his orange hair.

 

And yes to those complaining that we shouldn't have to watch TD for plot points.

 

 

I wish the camera had moved in for a few seconds and made the horde more clear.  The walkers on the road were obvious but I had to look for a bit to figure out if the shapes in the fields were zombies or something else.

 

I had no idea what they were seeing in the field. It looked like trees to me not a field of zombies. I agree with others that saying that many scenes are too dark to detect what is happening.

[feverfew]

Speaking only for myself, I did not need last night's "revelations" to take up an entire episode. Not with this short a season.

It's not that I don't agree somewhat, I just think it depend on what sort of character Abraham is going to be on the show. If he's going to be a lead character going forward, I think it's a very good idea to have this sort of revelatory episode. I still miss that with Tyrese and Sasha. I would have prefered the group not to split up, especially because I think there's some good stuff to be mined from the difference between him and Rick, but I understand why it happened, and I'm happy we got to know something more on Rosita and Tara; I don't think that would have happened if they had stayed with the main group. 

 

Frankly I thought last week's episode was far worse in terms of waste of precious time.

[Pestilentia]

 

I am left wondering a few things, one of which, what is the significance of Abraham's cut that keeps bleeding?

Maybe he has something like Von Willebrand's and they'll just let him slowly bleed to death to show us that tiny wounds can still kill under the right conditions.

 

Although this:

 

Pure metaphor.  Moobraham has wounds he has not let allowed to heal.

Is a lot more likely.

[The Mighty Peanut]

I am REALLY hoping this is not a spoiler as it happened on the show, albeit so vaguely it had to be confirmed on TTD.

But, yeah, TTD confirmed that Abraham and his neighbors and friends were living together in the early ZA. Abraham was on a run and in that time they raped his wife and little girl. I'm not sure about the son. So, in retaliation he killed them right to death. I get that they wouldn't want to/couldn't show child rape and am glad they didn't, but could he have at least said something like "What you did to my wife...my little girl" while he was canning the guy?

I hope he reveals it to Rick later and gets some closure when he learns this exact situation almost happened to him when the marauders were going to rape his girlfriend (it's my 'ship and I'm sticking to it) and son. Luckily he was able to rip out the guy's jugular with his teeth and pretty much gut the pedophile alive and Carl and Michonne had the sense to STAY with the guy who goes froot loops at rapists instead of joining them.

Abe and Rick can have a cute bonding moment -- "OMG, I lost my fucking mind TOO!!! I stabbed this guy like 400 times lol #sorrynotsorry".

Edited November 11, 2014 by The Mighty Peanut

[molshoop]

We've only seen Morgan in two episodes and a brief appearance at the end of episode 1 this season.

Yet, I am far more invested in him than I am, or ever will be in E.A.R.

I feel this was  90% a wasted episode.  E.A.R. aren't believable as real people and need to shuffle back into the pages of the comic books.

[JBody]

Well we do have backstory on everyone, when you consider the show's idea of backstory is answering the question "what were you doing when all hell broke loose?" We know Ty and Sascha were holed up in their neighbour's bunker. It's just that the degree to which they go into detail is uneven from season to season and character to character. Believe me, I agree with you in that the season is too short and the breaks between are interminably long, and so every minute of airtime counts, and sometimes I question their use of it.

Onto YSB and the yahoos. I liked this ep, and this is without the benefit of beer goggles. I dig that Abraham is one second away from losing his shit completely but he is essentially a good person. Eugene is too even though he's a cowardly weasel. I even thought Tara was tolerable tonight, which is saying something. Liked how Rosita stood up Abraham in the end. She's been his lieutenant through thick and thin so it was surprising. Appreciated funny Glenn making a brief reappearance. And then there was....Maggie. She is acting straight up coocoobananasville. Someone mentioned the half smile she's always wearing like she's a valium away from lying down in the street for a nap. No mention of you-know-who. Just does not add up. Some of my other issues were the same as a few of you here: thought they were stymied by factory farms and not a refugee camp; wondered why they didn't close the damned firehouse door; questioned the use of the fire hose (waste of water). I kinda laughed when the short bus crashed within the first five minutes. I know Maggie and Glenn are on that bus so we will care about what happens to the noobs (Sgt McBoobs!) but you know what, really not necessary. I would've cared as much without them and at the beginning it would've been very little but I am starting to give a shit about them. Oh yes, I got what happened to Abraham's wife in that she and the daughter looked messed up but I questioned her willingness to opt out and force their children to as well. What a horrible decision to have to make.

[tv echo]

Well, that was a waste of one hour of my time.  For me, that was the most boring and least enjoyable episode to date.  I could've read a recap today and gotten more satisfaction. 

 

'Shocking' reveal that Eugene was lying about the cure.... yawn.  The surprise wasn't that he lied, but that everyone believed his lie.   Abraham's back story... double yawn.  Turns out Eugene is a creepy, passive-aggressive coward, Abraham is a mentally unhinged bully, and Rosita is still a nonentity.  After Eugene disclosed his big lie, I kept waiting for Abraham to pull out his gun and shoot Eugene, Rosita, Tara, Glenn and Maggie (a la the Governor).

 

So what if Eugene is not physically gifted or strong.  He's still stronger and bigger than Rosita, Tara or Beth ... and yet they managed to show some courage and fight walkers.  Stop making excuses for your cowardice.  I can't stand Eugene and can't wait for him - or Rosita or Abraham -  to be eaten by walkers.

 

The gratuitous sex scene and the 'new' way to kill walkers (fire hose) just felt like attempts to wake up this episode.

 

Glenn and Maggie's involvement seemed pointless.  Glenn was just too willing to follow Abraham, and Maggie basically just let Glenn make the decisions.  They were both like lemmings.  Considering their previous harrowing experience with the Governor and their own proven badassness, their blind follower status was just out of character for them.  It was like the producers didn't trust the episode to be entirely devoid of any of our familiar cast members, so they thought 'let's throw Glenn and Maggie in there'.

 

My takeaway from this episode?  Abraham is no Rick - and just because it was in the comics doesn't mean it has to be in the TV show.  If the producers were testing the waters to see if they could kill off all of the original characters, including Rick, and replace them with new characters, then my response is "hell, no".  If Season 1 of TWD had featured Abraham, Eugene and Rosita as the main cast members, then I would've quit watching after the first episode.

 

Now I'll just wait with renewed appreciation to see Rick, Darryl, Michonne, Tyrese, Carl and Judith again on my screen.

Edited November 10, 2014 by tv echo

[Macbeth]

I think they're using Koolaid after AMC warned them to stay under budget.

That's also why they fired half of their lighting staff. it's getting so the show is like twenty minutes of television mixed with twenty minutes of radio play.

 

 

Great the number one drama on television and AMC is going to be cheap.  It has to make up the money it lost on its prestige shows, but never made real money, "Mad Men" and "Breaking Bad."

 

Screw them.  If I can't see what is going on- I won't watch.

[ghoulina]

Okay, how about Eugene mumbling, "The preacher, he didn't see another way out" after the bus wreck? Add that to my list of 'what was that about?'

 

I think maybe Eugene was saying he could relate to Father Pee Pants, because they're both cowards who can't handle themselves in this world. Gabriel locked his parishioners out, Eugene concocted a lie for protection. They've both done something to save their lives, that caused others to lose theirs. I think Eugene has felt guilty about his lie for a long time, and has been looking for a moment to confess. Perhaps it wasn't just Tara's support that made him feel he could, but also having met Gabriel - and knowing he's not the only scaredy-cat who had to use others to survive. 

 

Beating a man to death with your bare hands is very brutal, but I'd like to think that if my children and I were being brutalized, my partner would step in and handle things if I couldn't.  And I sure as hell wouldn't sail out into the middle of the ZA with my children and no means to protect us.  If she was trying to kill herself she should have considered that death by walker wouldn't be the best death form her children.  So I'm sorry she's dead but Abraham's wife seemed to damn stupid to live

 

I agree with you on this. I appreciated the comic info from TTD, but I didn't need it. I assumed the guys Abraham had killed had done something bad, that he was protecting his family and/or their shelter. But I couldn't wrap my mind around the mom leaving with her kids. Yes, I'm sure it's unsettling to see your husband in a rage, but he was in a rage over you and the kids! He wanted to protect you. Why would you leave him, and his protection, and fend for yourself with the walkers??? I just kept shaking my head, because I couldn't wrap my mind around it. 

 

Do we really know that Maggie's ot concerned, just because we've never seen her ask anyone if they know what happened? After all, we've never seen any of them go to the bathroom either, but I don't hear anyone talking about how unrealistic THAT is.

We see a fraction of the lives of these characters, spread out in 45-minute (or so) chunks 16 times per year, so I'm OK with knowing that we're not seeing everything they do, or hearing every conversation they have. Especially when the answer to this particular question is always going to be "I have no idea what did or did not happen to Beth."

 

This is true. But if TPTB take the time to give us a few minutes of Maggie feeling guilty for leaving the group behind, they couldn't throw in another line about her feeling guilty for leaving the area without knowing where her sister is? 

[Trek]

I liked this episode.

 

- I thought the campsite montage was good. That everyone just went about their work, going directly to where water is likely to be found in an abandoned building, Maggie ripping up a the hardback binder to salvage a serviceable stitching thread to pass to Rosita etc. - all without a word having to be said between any of them - conveyed more powerfully for me a sense of how veteran they all were by this stage; more so than conveying it with yet another stabity-stab scene which we get at least 3 times per episode anyway.

 

- Like others who have not read the comics, I was not aware of what had happened to Abe’s family prior, but I believe they were correct to not state what if anything happened to cause Abe to kill those three people.  If they’d followed the comics, the main reaction would be “he protects them from rapists and they run away? If I was the kid I’d be right there stomping the guy’s ribs in while Abe was bashing with the can. What idiots, they deserved to die within 50 yards.” Instead, implying that it was his display of violence that had driven them to their deaths, kept the focus on Abe’s trauma/guilt when he discovered the bodies.

 

As I posted in the previous thread, the one backstory I wanted to see was how Abe and Eugene first met and they delivered.  Starting from the lead up in the supermarket, all the flashbacks combined couldn’t have been more than 5 mins and in that short time managed to confirm what many on this forum thought. Regardless of whether Eugene was BSing or not, Abe wanted and needed to believe the story.

 

Maggie’s conversation with Glenn also described, rather well IMO, why others – and the list of people that died on this quest is a long one – might also join the journey even if “the cure” was not that believable. It represents a step forward. Symbolically the church massacre represents a dead end.  Whether by walker or governor or hunters or claimers or whatever, mucking around in circles is just inevitably stumbling from one massacre to another. (BTW, yes we are all aware of her "Beth amnesia" but we can't keep bashing her with the same hammer over and over whenever she delivers a line without mentioning Beth.)

 

The source of the episode title; Eugene peering at the couple from under the “Self Help” section and Tara sneaking a peak at Rosita after admonishing Eugene was also pretty funny.

 

All-in-all far superior than last week’s episode IMO.

 

ETA: As the numerous posts ala "his wife leaving makes no sense" after the comic events were revealed demonstrate, the showrunners were right not to put in on screen.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Trek

[ghoulina]

The mass of stink - I had the sickening thought that it was going to be a concentration camp whose victims had turned.

 

See, that was kind of where I went with it. I couldn't really make out what was on the screen, but it almost looked to me like a lot of small buildings and fences. So I was thinking detention center of some sorts - like the government was rounding people up for their own "safety", but they were abandoned and all starved to death or something. But it was just some random herd. 

[Morrigan2575]

See, that was kind of where I went with it. I couldn't really make out what was on the screen, but it almost looked to me like a lot of small buildings and fences. So I was thinking detention center of some sorts - like the government was rounding people up for their own "safety", but they were abandoned and all starved to death or something. But it was just some random herd.

I figured it was probably a safe zone or something that went bad but since they were trapped behind fences no where for the walkers to go.

[ghoulina]

Was I the only one who got nervous that the fire truck was going to be the Dale-a-bago 2.0? Breaking down every 5 miles on the way to DC? *shudder* 

[The Mighty Peanut]

I think maybe Eugene was saying he could relate to Father Pee Pants, because they're both cowards who can't handle themselves in this world. Gabriel locked his parishioners out, Eugene concocted a lie for protection. They've both done something to save their lives, that caused others to lose theirs. I think Eugene has felt guilty about his lie for a long time, and has been looking for a moment to confess. Perhaps it wasn't just Tara's support that made him feel he could, but also having met Gabriel - and knowing he's not the only scaredy-cat who had to use others to survive.

Yes, and I like the dichotomy of Eugene and F.P.P. struggling to come to terms with surviving through cowardice while Rick, Ty, and Abraham struggle to come to terms with their brutality, be it physical violence or not always stopping to save a person's life. Though, it seems like Rick is pretty much reconciled. Which leads me to...maybe Abraham the former sergeant will thrive working under General Grimes. I don't really buy so much that he's an alpha male; IMO he's dedicated to the cause first and he just happened to be the leader of project liarface so he made it the first priority. I can see him actually enjoying being Rick's left hand (Daryl stays on the right or I riot).

Edited November 11, 2014 by The Mighty Peanut

[Puffaroo]

And the theme for this week's episode is:  "Utter Despair."

I'm not sure it was just the herd on the road wasn't all they smelled. It looked like there was a fuckton of walkers behind some fences of whatever that large building was in the background. Going forward even in a vehicle probably would have been suicide.

 

I'm not sure what it was, either.  Evidently you have to have a 60" HD TV to see any detail in that scene.

 

The night scenes aren't much better, though they improved with I messed with the picture and brightness on my ancient analog TV.

[ElTVaddict]

I sure someone else may have mentioned this, but Eugene was still in survival mode that is why he told his secret.

 

Abe, was ready to drag him down the road to certain doom to complete the mission, he himself set him on and he doesn't want to die.

 

Eugene also believes he can come up with another reasons for the group to protect him.

[ghoulina]

Which leads me to...maybe Abraham the former sergeant will thrive working under General Grimes. I don't really buy so much that he's an alpha male; IMO he's dedicated to the cause first and he just happened to be the leader of project liarface so he made it the first priority. I can see him actually enjoying being Rick's left hand (Daryl stays on the right or I riot).

 

I am starting to lean that way myself. At first I just thought Abraham WAS too Alpha and hot-headed to be anything but the leader. But after seeing his backstory, I think he just needed a cause, any cause, to keep him going and from dwelling on the past. If they go back to the group and Rick gives him a clearly defined role, I actually think he might do just fine. 

[aprilgirl]

 

Seriously, Abraham's wife/kids...were raped by his group, one that he trusted, but they had no gun, or way to protect themselves during a zombie apocalypse...that is the very definition of red shirt. She took herself and her kids away from the one person who fought tooth and nail to protect them, only to get herself/kids slaughtered, makes no sense to me at all.

I took this a bit differently. If she and her children had been raped and then just witnessed her husband, whom we should assume was a kind and good man in the regular world, reduced to a killing machine, then I sort of understand her choice. I'm not sure I would see much point in living in such a violent world, or in subjecting my children to it. I took it as less that she was scared of Abe and more that she was broken by how much he has had to change to live in the ZA. I think she gave up, as opposed to running from him, and I kind of can't blame her.

Edited November 10, 2014 by aprilgirl

[Primetimer]

The least surprising revelation of the season still manages to pack an emotional punch, thanks to Abraham.

Read the story

[TV Anonymous]

How does the water cannon get the pressure if the engine is not running?

[Ottis]

Wait - why was Abraham's family afraid of him? He killed some walkers in a grocery store, and his family hid and then later ran off? I don't get it. If those weren't walkers, then where was everyone else in the store? If they were walkers, why did his wife feel the need to run away? That threw me the whole episode.

 

It was very boring.

[Wouldofshouldof]

I'm going with Eugene being dead at this point so I'll just say he was semi-funny plot point.

 

And if he's dead, then it just proves he was right to lie to save himself.  The second he told the truth . . . lights out.

[mandolin]

I agree with you on this. I appreciated the comic info from TTD, but I didn't need it. I assumed the guys Abraham had killed had done something bad, that he was protecting his family and/or their shelter. But I couldn't wrap my mind around the mom leaving with her kids. Yes, I'm sure it's unsettling to see your husband in a rage, but he was in a rage over you and the kids! He wanted to protect you. Why would you leave him, and his protection, and fend for yourself with the walkers??? I just kept shaking my head, because I couldn't wrap my mind around it. 

All I could figure is that they'd been in the grocery store since near the beginning, and maybe the wife didn't understand how truly bad things were outside. 

 

This episode was better than last week's for me, but so little happened. As people have already mentioned, there are only 3 episodes left this year. THREE. I don't care for the splitting up the group, then showing each story separately, then getting them all back together with only one or two days having passed. In half a season. 

 

TheMightyPeanut, I don't know how you feel about comic talk, regarding things that have already happened, but regarding your post upthread 

In the comics, Rick and Abraham DO have that conversation, right after Rick rips out the guy's throat out. It was Abe with him versus Daryl as in the show.

 

Hey, Rick? Remember me? Call me! I miss you!

[Milaxx]

I found it interesting that Tara actually encouraged Eugene to keep his destruction of the bus a secret.  After she was so proactive in being open and honest about her affiliation with the governor.

 

I think she was thinking this was the only bad thing Eugene had done and that he had done it because he didn't want to leave the main group. Since she too had made a mistake in trusting the Governor and was forgiven, I think she was trying to cut Eugene some slack. I doubt she would have been as forgiven if  she had known all of Eugene's secrets.

 

That's my guess too except technically wasn't Carl last year/season?  No big if I'm wrong, I just like to keep this stuff straight in my head.  But yeah, if you only get two "hard F-word" cusses/season, I can imagine a limit to the amount of sexual violence talk. 

 

 

I thought that was intended as a bit o'heavy-handed metaphor for the Three Questions.

Technically it's this season. AMC did that split season thing. The first 8 episodes shown 6 months ago was when the biker gang guy tried to rape Carl.

 

The mass of stink - I had the sickening thought that it was going to be a concentration camp whose victims had turned.

A concentration camp in the middle of Georgia in the USA?  That doesn't make sense. Things are bad, but the ZA didn't allow time for folks to set up concentrations camps. I couldn't see well either. I just assumed a slaughterhouse because of the size of what we were supposed to be looking at.

[JackONeill]

Boring.  Check, please.

 

You know, maybe it's me (though many of you have commented on it):  It takes me right of the story to see Abraham's hair (and moustache).  Seriously, it does.

 

And maybe the producers were patting themselves on the back with the "shredding of walkers via water cannon," but I thought it was deliberately contrived to make us all go, "Gee, how cool!"  I hate being manipulated.

 

And why didn't they zoom in on what they smelled and sort of kinda saw?

 

I do like Rosita more.  And Tara.  Abraham much less.  (I think it was insulting to the audience to have to watch TTD to get the full backstory on carrot-top.)  Always thought Mullet-Head was a joke and a liar.  And is this Glenn/Maggie some poor imitation of the Glenn/Maggie we all used to like?

 

Do you think Glenn's thinking: "You know, compared to Abraham, Rick's a right sane fellow!"

 

So, are they going to keep going to Washington?  Why?  (And do I -- do I really -- care?)   I'm sorry, I'd be headed back to the church.

Edited November 10, 2014 by JackONeill

[SoSueMe]

Do we really know that Maggie's ot concerned, just because we've never seen her ask anyone if they know what happened? After all, we've never seen any of them go to the bathroom either, but I don't hear anyone talking about how unrealistic THAT is.

 

We see a fraction of the lives of these characters, spread out in 45-minute (or so) chunks 16 times per year, so I'm OK with knowing that we're not seeing everything they do, or hearing every conversation they have. Especially when the answer to this particular question is always going to be "I have no idea what did or did not happen to Beth." The only person who could possibly have a different answer is Darryl; maybe he and Maggie had the conversation off-camera, or maybe Darryl avoided the subject because he figured Maggie had been through enough already. The day she last saw Beth is also the day she saw her Dad get beheaded, probably not a day she likes re-living.

You make a good point, as the viewers we can't possibly know their thoughts or actions 24/7. But it does seem to me that if they are giving Beth an entire episode her character should carry enough weight to allow Maggie to say something about her. 

[Milaxx]

Wait - why was Abraham's family afraid of him? He killed some walkers in a grocery store, and his family hid and then later ran off? I don't get it. If those weren't walkers, then where was everyone else in the store? If they were walkers, why did his wife feel the need to run away? That threw me the whole episode.

 

It was very boring.

They were people, not walkers. Honestly I saw the can in his hand and assumed he was fighting off other looters for the last remnants of food. I did understand the look of horror on his family's faces when they saw him beat that man to a bloody pulp and the maniacal look in his face. That said, I also think it was stupid to run away from him because of that. Especially know there were worse things like walkers outside.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Milaxx

[Rosiejuliemom]

Was I the only one who got nervous that the fire truck was going to be the Dale-a-bago 2.0? Breaking down every 5 miles on the way to DC? *shudder*

 

 

Nope. When the truck broke down the first time, all I could think of was the RV. I was waiting for Glenn to take out a pair of pliers, pop the hood, and get to work.

[mandolin]

I forgot to mention something in my last post that JackONeill just brought up. I really felt the zombies and this episode were pointless.

Many times now, when they kill walkers, it's like they are doing it just because they have Nicotero there to make cool things happen. It wasn't necessary. It didn't move the story. It was just a cool special effect. Meanwhile where are the people we care about?

[panthergirl13]

The zombies move so slowly, and are so easy to kill, I don't understand:

 

1) How they were able to over-run human society, the world over;

 

2) Why the humans can't defeat them now. 

 

Any insights? 

The show is often sponsored by Sprint, and I'm thinking these people need to take the hint.

 

And seriously, doesn't the whole world stink by this time? "What's that smell?" Um, gee... I don't know... rotting flesh, maybe? I was expecting "Who farted?" next.

Edited November 10, 2014 by panthergirl13

[melanie]

What was the point of that Sampson story that Maggie was telling Eugene?  

[RustbeltWriter]

The Good: Lots of characterization, we get to see Abraham's back story and how he met Eugene. Also, It turns out Eugene may be a liar but he's not a bad guy. Like everyone elese he is just looking to survive and if civilization is going to be rebuilt, you'll need smart guys. It was also nice to see Tara and Rosita making good contributions.

 

The Bad: Writers, Maggie's only family is missing. Show us something. Either she's grieveing because she thinks she's dead or she should be concerned because she thinks she's alive. Right now it's like they aren't related. This is becomeing a serious distraction.

 

The Ugly: AMC, I do not watch this show with night vision gear. When you do dark scenes I can't see anything and it's annoying. But here's the thing, last week during the Talking Dead, when they showed that week's walker deaths, they lightened the scene. During broadcast it was utterly incomprehensible. Let's pretend people actually want to see the characters. I also couldn't see what everyone was squinting at in the middle of the road. I assume it was a big herd behind fences but I'm guessing. Let's get it together.

 

Finally, the show runners hit a comic/ TV paradox. They wanted Abraham, Eugene and Rosita from the comics and their storyline but they couldn't figure out how to mesh it well with the TV only visit to the CDC.  They need to watch out for these pitfalls in the future because it's inconceivable that no one in Rick's group brought up the CDC visit when Eugene was spinning his tale.

[poppy-]

The zombies are much easier to kill now that they're rotting.  I think that's canon, right?

 

I almost wish we didn't have The Talking Dead. I kind of preferred way the show did it - not all questions answered but the emotions were clear as a bell.

[islandgal140]

Ok, I do think Eugene is smart. I'm guessing they decide to still take him to DC on the chance he might be able to do something, that last thin thread of hope.

Did anyone get what Abe's family was so horrified about with the blood on his hands that they ran away and left a note not to follow? I can't believe they'd be that shocked by him killing walkers...

I don't watch Talking Dead on a regular basis. Sundays are a televisual feast for me and I just can't add one more program to the long list of things I want to watch. Needless to say, I wasn't aware until I read this thread that Ab had killed men and not walkers and that there was a story behind that. I suspected that they were men given that dude seem to be still kicking even after Ab struck him the head multiple times with a can of pinto beans but it seemed like he didn't die until Ab stepped on his neck. Ab's wife was just too stupid to live though. I know it wasn't meant to be funny but I couldn't help but chortle at the juxtaposition of leaving a 'Don't try to find us' note followed by Ab running outside and not 10 foot to the right of the front door, both the wife and his kids laying there with their bones damn near picked clean. I mean damn, they didn't get bit and become walkers themselves they just got friggin' eaten. Speaking of which, these walkers must not have been as hunger. That one walker at the prison, seemingly swallowed Lori whole, hair, clothes and all. 

 

All in all, this wasn't a bad episode but I have to admit it had some of the most nonsensical dialogue I think I have ever heard on this show. I had to rewind a few times just to make sense of what they were trying to say. They really beat the biblical Samson references into the ground all over a fucking mullet! No haircut or style has been less deserving of such over analysis.  Seriously could have cut Maggie talking about that shit to express concern over Beth. At this point, I'm not even mad at Maggie vis a vis Beth anymore. It is the writers that are fucking up.  I don't see why they would give her dialogue positively thinking that Rick's group was driving a couple of miles behind them or that Samson Sunday school mess and not voice any concern on where Beth is or even if she is dead/alive.

 

Eugene's dead falling face plant onto the asphalt was amazing. No words can express the joy at the whole Eugene has the cure BS is over. The only regret is that I would have liked someone to make it outside of GA. The one problem I have with this show is the lack of world building outside this little group. I like to see how others are doing/making in other areas, which is probably why I enjoyed the Beth episode more than I thought I would even with all the flaws (running electric to the point the doctor could sit in his office with the lights on and play records) and water.

 

I did like Ab's speechifying to Glenn while he was on watch at the front of the store, although I can't say I completely agreed with him when he said that at this point only the strong remain and have survived so long. Not so. A coward hiding under a rock (or more aptly in a church) and a coward smarter than Ab that knows things have made it this far too. So exceptions to the rule abound.