S04.E07: The Snow Queen

[FabulousTater]

Emma certainly can't throw stones about giving up a baby and missing out on Mommy and Me classes.

I don't think Emma was casting stones at Snow for that. I think that was Emma's hurt showing that she never got that with Snow not that she was angry at Snow for doing so with Baby Snowflake now. Emma was awkwardly trying to reassure Snow that it was all cool (while Snow also awkwardly tried to reassure Emma), but no matter how much Emma says she's okay with it all, deep down she's really not because she's never really dealt with it. But again, that's not Emma casting stones at Snow (in other words, there's no need to cast stones at Emma either)

 

The Snow Queen was right that just because Emma has all the facts now doesn't change 28 years of loneliness, and the tragedy and pain of it all. And when Snow replies to Emma's comments about baby Snowflake having so much stuff with "we wanted to give him everything", that just hit Emma where it hurt (though not in anyway intentional by Snow). And all that emotional turmoil Emma was feeling (though she was verbally saying it was all fine by her) culminated with Emma magicking the baby bottle.

 

 If you want to get technical she used Henry to break a curse too.

 

Not really. Technically, Emma saved Henry from actually being "dead" by breaking his sleeping/"make like a corpse" curse. Henry was inactive when he got "saved"; he didn't do anything except make an excellent corpse.  OTOH, Snow and Charming used Emma herself to get her to break the curse. (Also, according to the writers Snow and Charming didn't know Regina was trying to kill Emma. Yes, the writers actually said this -- we know Regina was trying to kill Emma, but Snow and Charming don't know. WTFever. Never read/listen to A&E's interviews 'cause they just ruin things. Though. dammit, it does jibe with why Snowing always tell Emma that they sent her through the wardrobe to save her from the curse and so she could save everyone and not specifically to save her from Regina). Snowing just thought Emma would be cursed along with the rest of them and sending her through the wardrobe gave them hope that Emma would break the curse and then be reunited with them. So if anything both Henry and Snowing knowingly used Emma to get her to break curses. 

Edited November 10, 2014 by FabulousTater

[BoPeeps]

Random blurbs:

Shaking my head. "Robin Hood" is pure adulterated spooge. Just foul. A total, shameful puke.

Little Girl Gerta was adorable! Adult Gerta...holy crow, not so adorable.

Always too much story needed to be told but there were moments I felt were the best of the season so far for Rumple. Evil bastard suits him to a total T.

A couple of really good moments actually. The Frozen story was on speed tonight to get told, but there were tidbits that made some very entertaining sense. Parallels abound!! The have to rev it up to wind it down for the half season finale!!

Snow Queen continues to portray the way a "created" villain should "vilify". She is lunatic marvelous.

Snow. Jaysus. Snow. Just cripes. *We?* nah. YOU Toots. Nice (NOT) way to attack Emma even if you did suddenly realize what a total accusatory dipshit you were being.

Don't care about the bumpy baby continuity. A few gaping holes of "Kitsisowitz" style canon forgetfulness.

Hook has Rumple's number which means he will suffer for it very soon. Carlyle and O'Donoghue are splendid emoters for each other.

Clever *furniture polish* Grandpa moment. Heh.

 

The whisper? Hmm, with Rumple's reaction, it could be Hook, but as of yet Hook has no magical power to add to the hat. Rumple could possibly get rid of him just to destroy Emma and send her rushing to Elsa and Snow Queen out of desperation of yet another failed romance... but Snow Queen wants Emma with magic intact and a powerful part of her new family so that's where it gets iffy. (From the Elsa handshake occurring for a nanosecond in the sneak preview, *Hook may get a tad frosty in the leather bits sooner rather than later but for a totally different reason.) Regina on the other hand, is the only other matching powerhouse standing in Rumple's way of complete domination. I think she has a target on her back. (and apparently a shithead slug forest reeking loser on her front. Foul just foul, still shaking my head)

And why, really...WHY does Rumple trust anything Snow Queen would tell him anyway??? She could be soooo playing him.

 

Oh, who the heck knows! But it was a very delicious touch to whisper it and keep us all guessing!

[MedievalGirl]

As for Robin I am intrigued that a character on this show would make a dishonorable choice for the sake of True Love. It is rather a conundrum by the rules we've seen so far. It will be heartbreaking for someone, maybe even someone who isn't an icicle. I want to see where it goes and I totally bought the Harlequin romance cheesiness of the kiss. 

[Bluerang1]

I was upset that they didn't address how Ingrid got her powers in the first place. Looks like they never will.

Agree with BoPeeps, little Gerda stole the show <3 I'm surprised they allowed Gerda to urn Ingrid, basically surprised that Disney was cool with it. Now to get Elsa to wear normal clothes. .. Speaking of which, I love how Aurora isn't used to our world, even though it's been a year lol

Edited November 10, 2014 by Bluerang1

[Leia1979]

As much as I hate what this show has done to the character of Belle, what they've done to Robin Hood is even worse. Even my husband commented that Robin Hood is a jerk. I was guilty of a bit of MST3K-style commentary to get through those scenes.

 

Poor Emma. I really wish Elsa could stick around just so Emma could have a friend who understands her. Snow's scolding of her was just ridiculous. The whole point was that Emma couldn't control what she was doing. I have one other directing peeve from that scene: David shoving Hook out of the way and then staring at the lamp post as it fell on him. Shove and then keep running, dude! Or make that reaction scene way shorter to show he didn't have time to move, because he totally could have jumped 5 feet out of the way instead of staring at a falling object for three whole seconds.

 

Frozenbacks were too long. We could have easily gotten the gist of things with one fewer flashback. I thought the sisters were rather old to be living at home and still unmarried for a fairy-tale land. But you also couldn't have a 16 year old be Elizabeth Mitchell's sister, I suppose. I will say that everything I despised about EM's character on Revolution works very well for DQ. I enjoyed all the present-day scenes, from the moment Emma put those magic handcuffs on her, I knew DQ had a plan. I may even have shouted, "It's a trap!"

 

Also, my husband pointed out that Rumple had Thor's hammer in his castle.

[FabulousTater]

I was upset that they didn't address how Ingrid got her powers in the first place. Looks like they never will.

 

My fanwank is that I think we're supposed to assume people have magical powers for the same reasons that some people in the real world are born musical savants or geniuses and some aren't. Magic is a natural part of the world where the Enchanted Forest and Arendelle reside, so it's not uncommon for some to be naturally born with it. 

[KR Vermont]

Take a shot every time someone says monster!

...and how about downing a shot every time Rumple says "dearie". It's gotten out of hand!

[shapeshifter]

As to Emma's powers going wonky all of a sudden, I believe it was tied-in with the candle and spell. All DQ had to do was ensorcell that candle and conveniently leave the book with runes where Belle and Elsa could find said "help". We saw how Ingrid snapped her fingers and the spell shackles broke for her.  Also Emma's eyes were glowing red when she was frustrated/angry with Ingrid.  The trial run with the candle primed Emma, is what I am betting....

I wondered about the candle too, and also, Emma seemed to be bitten by a sibling rivalry bug that was making her boil things.

I wonder if DQ make Emma a volcano so they'd have to be together forever in order to cancel out each other's temperature related power surges.

I missed what Will said to Robin right before Robin decide to go make out with Regina. Anybody have it, or do I have to find it for myself? TIA.

[Blue Plastic]

Hah, it took me a little bit to realize the guy with the glasses was a young Duke of Weasel-town!  I didn't put it together until he started dancing.  That was a cute touch.

 

I thought all the ribbon stuff was cringeworthy.  I guess the sisters lost their bond because they gave their stupid ribbons away to Rumpel.  Whatever.  So they can't truly love each other and be there for each other unless they forever keep the semi-magical symbols of their childhood promise?  Me no likey.

 

I thought they were trying to make Regina seem like a good person by making Robin (continue to) act like a complete and total douche, but then she finally succumbed to his constant wooing.  What a nice pair.

 

The only thing I really liked was when Rumpel handed Henry a bottle of polish!

[El Seed]

...and how about downing a shot every time Rumple says "dearie". It's gotten out of hand!

 

And a drink every time someone says "Magic always comes with a price." So tired of hearing that line.

[Jlina]

I think DQ was the source of Emma's newfound rage/magic (as in, it's not even Emmas, she's still not that strong).  Maybe the candle spell did it, but the manacles were total bs pretend from the get go and I agree with whomever said where in the heck did these powers even come from?!  DQ could have easily blown the hole in the wall, felled the lampost, etc.  She may be a good actress with cleavage that constantly keeps me wondering if it's real but she's an evil beyotch at bottom.

 

Regina's black mirror was a remarkable *mirror* of DQ's white one.  Hope it comes into play.

 

Loved Rumple having bigger plans, but I doubt it's world domination stuff.  He's got something he wants specifically no doubt.

 

And a drink every time someone says "Magic always comes with a price

What I don't get about this is why the hell doesn't anyone ever ask what the price is?!!!! d'uh.

[Camera One]

Why didn't Anna's mom just have the Rock Trolls make the Duke of Weaselton forget instead of the entire freakin' kingdom.  I could totally have imagined the Blue Fairy saying, sorry, can't do that, if Anna's mom asked her to erase everyone's memories.  They could just say Ingrid and Helga went missing while hiking in the snowy mountains or something.  I guess Disney doesn't care that they destroy the integrity of the Rock Trolls? Rock Troll: Magic comes with a price... hmmm, we'll see what that would be later... smart idea, everyone.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Camera One

[myril]

Cringed myself through all of the Robin scenes - and no. Just no. Never like white-knight-true-love-soulmate-love-on-first-sight romance, I find the idea itself is a harmful illusion, it leads to a rather fatalistic view in my opinion and is destructive for honest and serious relationships. Maybe I should thank the show to show that so blatantly with OutlawQueen. It's pretty much all that is wrong about believing in pixie dust and predestined (one) true love. Can wonder, if they do this on purpose or are just illusionary.

 

Felt sympathy for Ingrid early, and thankfully they didn't destroy it for me with some stupid background story. It is mostly what I expected, or thought it should be. The Frozenbacks though were not the best writing, to put it nicely. I enjoyed the kids very much, Brighton Sharbino especially did a fine job capturing the adult Snow Queen as kid, as I enjoyed Elizabeth Mitchell, Sarah Pressman and Pascale Hutton. Not to forget the Duke of Weselton, Jonathan Runyon. The writing was though sometimes clunky. And I can only guess that Ingrid had years of musing, fuming and then likely cooling emotions while in that urn (brutal to think of), to explain how this scared, shocked young woman could have turned into that cold Snow Queen coming out of the urn, now all in control of her powers. Sometimes it's better not to think much in fantasy, is it.

 

It seemed to me that Gerta wasn't ever totally on team Ingrid. She looked to Helga before taking Ingrid's hand when they were kids and seemed slightly less enthused than Helga in the ball scene. With Helga dead Gerta had no one to balance her fears. 

 

Had the same impression. Gerda and Ingrid hadn't the warmest relationship, Helga was the glue in this trio. So I was somewhat surprise that it was Gerda who seemed to be most hesitant to give up the ribbons. Although, now thinking of it, it can make sense, she needed this reminder the most maybe.

 

I watched the episode only for the Snow Queen story, I find it by now difficult to still care even about Emma in the present time, after that 4x05 fiasco, and she was the last character of the main cast I still was interested in. Not feeling it anymore. But still love the little moments Emma and Elsa have.

 

Sarah Bolger was great in the short time she was on, perfect line delivery. I like her and found Aurora interesting from the first time she was on the show (might be one of a few), but think her skills have grown. The whole playgroup had a nice beat even without the Emma - Snow moment.

 

Speaking of. Think for Emma it was not just about feeling a sting, that she and her mother never had these moments together, and she still struggles to really feel family with them all the time, but also that she never actually had these moments with Henry either, only as fake memory. Emma was deprived of the joy of such bonding twice.

 

Has anyone already a gifset of that moment between Gold and Henry, when he gives him the bottle with the potion "that possesses the power to transform something old into something new? That was great.

[2deadcows]

DQ could have easily blown the hole in the wall, felled the lampost, etc.

 

 

I'm almost of the same mind you are.  Mainly because the magic that blew out the brick wall looked a lot like ice magic to me.  It could have just been Emma's ever-CGI-changing white/yellowish magic, but on first watch all I saw was DQ-style magic.  Plus, after busting up that wall, there was a bunch of white stuff on Emma's hands that looked a lot like snow and/or ice.  I don't recall that effect for Emma's magic before.  

 

I would be so pissed if I had to dress in a suit only to sweep a floor and dust furniture.  Not cool.  Regina'd better send the dry cleaning bill to Rumple!

 

ETA:  JMo had the best kicked puppy reaction faces tonight.  Really gut wrenching.  She really comes through when given the chance.  I don't know how the main cast manages to continually create something watchable out of what the writers hand them.  

Edited November 10, 2014 by 2deadcows

[Emma]

It could have been for show but the DQ looked way too pleased by Emma blowing out the wall if she was really just behind it all.

[Camera One]

Was Emma's cut on her neck by icicle significant?  

 

I loved Emma's line delivery when the Elsa says it must be hard when your family looks at you differently, and she said, "They don't."  Though that was the moment I realized they were just going to blow that to Kingdom come.

 

Hearing Regina say "I'm not going to let this book stop me again" again still doesn't give it legitimacy.

 

I liked Belle way more in this episode as she ran around all over the place than I did her centric last week.  It was a bit odd that Rumple described his disdain for the unwelcomed "procession" even though she was in it.

 

So in addition to reuniting the Three Sisters, now the Snow Queen wants to rule Storybrooke as well?  

 

Why would the book last week show Helga looking "exactly like Emma" when she doesn't?  

 

Did Gerda remove her own memories as well?  If so, then how did she know the gloves would help Elsa?

Edited November 10, 2014 by Camera One

[placate]

...and how about downing a shot every time Rumple says "dearie". It's gotten out of hand!

That could put you in a hospital when he's the Dark One, don't do that :o

[Emma]

That guy in the beginning with the kite was such a creeper. I kept yelling at the girls to run.

I know the episode has other issues but that guy really creeped me out.

[KAOS Agent]

This week in things I choose to watch before I decided to finally watch this episode: The Princess Bride, The Rocky Horror Picture Show, D-Day in 3D and Pearl Harbor Declassified.

 

My thoughts:

 

- I drank a ton of rum before & during this episode. Good choice.

 

- I loved the band. They seemed so enthusiastic.

 

- I really liked Emma's black jacket. 

 

- Who the hell would be interested in the weird ass duke who can't dance?

 

- The Snow Queen is absolutely right about Snowing. They did have choices, but once the wardrobe idea was given, they choose not to fight. Their choice was to put their baby in a wardrobe and cross their fingers. Yes, Snow was to go with her, but even that was stupid. Why did she and David not fight to stay together 'til the very end? They may love Emma, but they have never really viewed her as their daughter. She has always been the Saviour to them. Just like Mirror!Belle was telling the truth, the Snow Queen was telling the truth.

 

- When someone tells you to get the hell away and gives a good reason, you listen to her. Idiots! God, it's just like in "White Out" when Emma told David everything was fine and he kept coming charging in and scaring Elsa further. Seriously, do they never listen?

 

- A villain with an actually believable sob story explaining her ways. She's still crazy, but I can see why she'd try to build a family of people just like her, so that everyone understood each other. Very sad. Also, totally understand her anger at her sister and her need to "help" Elsa.

 

- Regina got the "let it go" line tonight. Enough with that, writers.

 

- The rock trolls seriously need to stop with the memories thing. They are becoming Blue Fairy shady at this point.

 

- About Robin, the less said, the better.

 

- Please tell me that this means Baby Snowflake is not also some super special magical Snowflake 

[InsertWordHere]

Has anyone already a gifset of that moment between Gold and Henry, when he gives him the bottle with the potion "that possesses the power to transform something old into something new? That was great.

Here you go. It was indeed a funny moment!

 

Why would the book last week show Helga looking "exactly like Emma" when she doesn't?

And yet neither of her parents commented on her actual resemblance to Glinda last season. Ah, I'll just have to handwave it. They can't strike gold every time in the casting department, and I think they used all of it up on young Ingrid this week.

 

Please tell me that this means Baby Snowflake is not also some super special magical Snowflake

I think it just means that he hasn't had a reason to demonstrate his powers yet. Just wait until he's old enough to figure out who he's named after. Just kidding.

 

DQ would assume he has no magic because she is special amongst her sisters and so is Elsa.

[2deadcows]

It could have been for show but the DQ looked way too pleased by Emma blowing out the wall if she was really just behind it all.

 

 

She was also pretty pleased when everyone was turning against Elsa after DQ framed Elsa for icing Marian.  Plus, we did get this exchange:

 

Emma: What did you do to me?

DQ:  All I did was show you who you really are.

Emma:  Make it stop!

DQ:  I can't.  It's you, Emma, and it's beautiful.  

 

Can she really not help Emma?  She didn't seem to want to help Elsa either and played similar word games with Elsa before owning up to her villainy.  

 

I guess the above exchange in the sheriff's office could be read as vague enough to imply that DQ somehow tinkered with Emma's magic to super charge it, but I don't really think they'll go there and that, in the end, all of this will be on Emma and her magic and her emotions.  HOWEVER, combine that "all I did was show you who you really are" with the wonky effects...and I don't think the speculation of DQ's meddling is out of left field.

Edited November 10, 2014 by 2deadcows

[Blue Plastic]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Will's whole story arc here is a giant rehash of his one on OUATIW. Him, Anastasia and their love story was THE most well-received part of that show, so it's obvious that ABC wanted it put on the main show and give it to a wider audience, it was the main success to a big failure.

I hope they don't expect viewers to automatically understand Will.  I didn't watch OUATIW and have no idea who Will and Anastasia are.  So far he seems crammed into Storybrooke and I'm not going to like him any better if they don't explain who he is and what he's doing there for those of us who didn't watch.

[twoods]

The casting crew always seem to do an amazing job casting young versions of the fairy tale versions- little Ingrid was the spitting image of Elizabeth Mitchell.

Poor Emma. I'm really loving the snow queen- she has been a great villain who is one step ahead of everyone else.

Interested to see Rumpel's plan- I guess he's not going to be good for Bae.

Not enough Captain Swan! And Snow was stupid but I can see why she doesn't like magic. Bravo to the Snow Queen to play on Emma's insecurities.

[kitticup]

Generally I liked it. The only thing I didn't like was the OQ scenes. Those scenes are repetitive, add nothing to the overall show and take away from other story lines I am more interested in, like the hat or other relationships, like Emma Elsa, CS or charming family.

I liked the story of the three sisters. I have a very close bond with my sister, so I like seeing close sisters on TV. I actually feel like Ingrid created a self fulfilling prophecy. She distanced herself from everyone and life for so long and did give others a chance to understand her. She saw herself as a monster and was quick to believe that others would as well. I think the ribbon became embued with their love and acted as protective charm. Had helge still worn it, it would have protected her from the ice blast.

I liked the mommy and me class. It was fun to see the babies and their fairy tale moms. I felt bad for Snow. She didn't want Emma to feel left out. I think it made sense to be reluctant to give Snowflake to Emma. Emma has every right and reason to feel upset about all she missed in her childhood and little Neal would bring that up. I was not cool with the way Snow reprimanded Emma.

Gold is a world class jerk. He has always been about his power. He could go to the outside world but doesn't want to lose his magic.

[myril]

I liked the story of the three sisters. I have a very close bond with my sister, so I like seeing close sisters on TV. I actually feel like Ingrid created a self fulfilling prophecy. She distanced herself from everyone and life for so long and did give others a chance to understand her. She saw herself as a monster and was quick to believe that others would as well. I think the ribbon became embued with their love and acted as protective charm. Had helge still worn it, it would have protected her from the ice blast.

 

If the ribbons had been charged with bonding love, then they better send for a Warehouse 13 agent (it still would be 13, right, if present Storybrooke is somewhere 2013, as was suggested by the show runners). Such magical, power charged objects have a tendency to become dangerous tools.

Edited November 10, 2014 by katusch

[Minneapple]

My poor Emma, my heart ached for her in this episode. You could see her trying to tell herself that she didn't believe in what the DQ was saying, but there was a part of her that already believed it to be true--and there was truth in it, since FUCKING SNOW WHITE had just looked at her with fear and, like, cringed away from her with the baby.

Hell, I'd be fine if Emma, Elsa and Ingrid actually decided to be sisters. Charming and Hook (ohmigod Charming saved Hook from the lamppost) can come for the spinoff too. Emma, Elsa, Hook and Charming can run the magical detective agency and Ingrid can dispense ice cream and advice.

The DQ flashbacks were amazing. Just terrific casting all around. I loved the three sisters. I just wish we'd gotten more of their father and his reaction to Ingrid's magic.

I am beyond confounded that the writers of this show can create a great, layered villain like the DQ with a sympathetic story -- and then there's Regina, who is like the most epically failed not-redeemed villain of all time. You're not going to let the book stop you from WHAT, Regina? Killing people? Enacting curses on kingdoms? Being a homewrecker? And speaking of, Robin Hood's wife is nearly frozen to death and his son is...somewhere. But let's hop on over to Regina's lair for a booty call! GOD WHAT A DOUCHE.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Minneapple

[AudienceofOne]

Judging from the events of this episode, I think the DQ edited the family tree to make one of her sisters look like Emma. That way, when she manipulates Emma to join her "family" she can pretend she's really her "sister". Which fits nicely with the fact that she's a crazy person.

 

Probably the most interesting thing about this season is the parallel this has with what I still believe is Rumpie cursing Hook's hand.

 

I'm not going to comment on the ongoing train wreck that is the other storylines because I'll start ranting.

 

I will say that I found Emma's emotional reaction in this episode to be a little out of character and after everything they've been through I find it hard to believe she wouldn't confide in Hook. He's neither her family nor has he been judgemental about her magic.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Loved the Princess Bride reference in tonight's episode!

 

Robin can STFU and have a seat. You chose your wife, so stay away from your girlfriend. It's crappy to keep skulking around Regina telling her that you love her but you can't be with her.

 

But beyond that, he really annoyed me when he said not once, but twice, that he has ALWAYS lived by a code and he has spend his WHOLE LIFE stealing from the rich and giving to the poor, despite the fact that he just told Will Scarlett for the 31st time that he was a petty thief when he met Marian and stole her father's horse. So are we supposed to believe he was a horse thief when he was one day old and immediately reformed? I'm all for change and becoming a better person, but don't exaggerate and say that you have been doing something for your entire life when that's clearly not true. Even if Marian's father's horse was the first thing he stole, he still hasn't lived by a code about being noble for hie entire life. Gawd. No matter how good he thinks he is now, that doesn't change his past.

 

While part of me understands Emma feeling jealous that Mary Margaret is treating Neal as her first baby, you'd think that Emma, of all people, would understand what it's like to give up your child to give him a better life and miss his childhood. If she ends up having another kid (please, I can't live through another OUAT pregnancy and baby storyline so I'd rather this be part of the happily ever after when the show ends), she will be in the same position. She is a mother to adolescent Henry but all of the baby stuff will be a new experience with her second child.

 

I can't blame Snow White for wanting to experience all of those things with Neal since she missed everything about Emma's childhood - first word, first steps, first haircut, first tooth, etc. It doesn't mean she loves Emma any less than she did before or that she loves Neal more than she loves Emma. Again, I totally understand Emma's resentment but since she is an adult who has had a similar experience (not a five year child who doesn't want a stupidhead little brother), I just thought she would be a lot more understanding.

 

But damn, Snow, maybe it's a good thing that Emma didn't grow up with you if you're going to be such an accusing harpy over what was clearly an accident. She didn't mean to hurt anyone and her magic was not directed at actual people. The fact that something fell over and hit someone is not something she should be blamed for. That would be like blaming me for tripping over a curb and dropping a banana peel which someone else then slipped on (yes, I live in a cartoon).

Edited November 10, 2014 by ElectricBoogaloo

[maryle]

OQ are a epic laugh story. 

It is the only way to listen the Honorable Robin Hood talk about how his frozen wife helped him turn around his life to 5 min later kissed Regina.

They cannot ask me to take this crap serously!

I'm  sorry but S.M acting was weak in his first scene with L. P.

The flashback was good.

I'm happy that they touched the conflict between the charming clan.

I'm really not sure where Cs are going now.

I'm afraid they will just froze any signficant evolution until the season final (like last year). Great way to drag a sl until nobody care.

The duke was good.

[Worsel]

I've been thinking about the scene in Gold's shop when they come to him for help with Emma. I think his love for Belle was compromised after she tried to control him with the (fake) dagger.  He said, "how can I turn down the pleas of my beloved wife?"  The way he said it sounded sarcastic to me.  I think the mutual lies and betrayals are definitely going to end their marriage - an example that true love does not guarantee a happy ending.

[buffynut]

I hope they don't expect viewers to automatically understand Will.  I didn't watch OUATIW and have no idea who Will and Anastasia are.  So far he seems crammed into Storybrooke and I'm not going to like him any better if they don't explain who he is and what he's doing there for those of us who didn't watch.

My thoughts exactly.  I don't really know the Robin Hood story and did not watch OUATIW, so I know basically nothing about Will and Anastasia.  And I wouldn't even know the name Anastasia if I hadn't seen references to her on this forum.

[YaddaYadda]

So, sat on it and I agree and I've been saying that DQ probably messed with Emma's magic somehow to push her agenda along.  She blocked Elsa's magic when she trapped Hook under the icicles.  She planted Emma's file in the truck knowing they would find it.  She very likely planted the family tree of Arendelle as well to put them on the "right" track.  She left the prophecy knowing that Elsa can read it.

 

She knows Belle has her nose in her books all the time.  It wouldn't be hard for her to plant the book that said how to trap DQ.  She could have tinkered with the candle to rev up the powers and all she had to do was get her riled up and angry.  When Emma asks her what she did to her, she tells her she showed her who she really was.

 

Total parallel with Hook, the hand and what Rumple told him over the hand fiasco, how he told him he should be glad that he reminded him of who he was, the whole you can't love someone if you don't understand them that DQ said to Emma...there was a lot of material in this show in terms of anvils at least.

 

So now, I've been wondering about something.  Rumple needed the tear of someone who is good and fights their basest instincts of being "bad" doing something that's wrong to open the hat box.  What if he now needs someone who used to be a villain and has now crossed to the other side in order to do what it is he needs to get rid of the dagger completely?

 

Belle has to beg Rumple to help because Emma is seemingly trapped inside the station. meanwhile, Henry, you know Emma's son is in the back of the store.  Oh Rumple!  You vile, vile little man!  Can't say I'm not getting a kick out of him. 

[Dani-Ellie]

And when Snow replies to Emma's comments about baby Snowflake having so much stuff with "we wanted to give him everything", that just hit Emma where it hurt (though not in anyway intentional by Snow).

 

That was it! I knew there was something Snow had said before the bottle incident that irritated me and just compounded the flinching away thing. That was it. No, she wasn't intentionally trying to be mean or hurtful, but the comment was thoughtless and insensitive. Like, gee, Snow, how about you think before you speak so you don't say things like that to your other child who grew up with only a baby blanket?

Edited November 10, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[shapeshifter]

And when Snow replies to Emma's comments about baby Snowflake having so much stuff with "we wanted to give him everything", that just hit Emma where it hurt (though not in anyway intentional by Snow).

That was it! I knew there was something Snow had said before the bottle incident that irritated me and just compounded the flinching away thing. That was it. No, she wasn't intentionally trying to be mean or hurtful, but the comment was thoughtless and insensitive. Like, gee, Snow, how about you think before you speak so you don't say things like that to your other child who grew up with only a baby blanket?

And yet, it was totally and consistently in character with Snow. This is the same Snow who spilled the beans about Regina, starting the whole Evil Queen character development. I'm just surprised a vindictive elf hasn't already struck Snow with a Mute Curse.

[Randomosity]

Again, I totally understand Emma's resentment but since she is an adult who has had a similar experience (not a five year child who doesn't want a stupidhead little brother), I just thought she would be a lot more understanding.

She is understanding, rationally. Which is why she was trying to convince Snow it was okay, etc. But what you know with the logical part off your brain doesn't necessarily mesh with what you're going to feel emotionally. To my mind, Emma gets the do-over kid from a logical standpoint, but that doesn't mean that little reminders like the baby class aren't still going to be an emotional punch to the gut.

I mean, think about a break up or something. You may rationally know splitting up is best for both of you, but it can still hurt like hell.

Emma needs a hug (from Hook), a big bowl of ice cream (not DQ's), and a heart-to-heart with her mama (Charming can come too).

ETA: Oh, also, since I mentioned Ingrid as DQ... Anyone else think the D aspect of DQ was even more appropriate last night given that, as she sort of dissolved, she looked like a gallon of skim milk being poured into the urn?

Edited November 10, 2014 by Randomosity

[kili]

Let me get this straight - We had to listen to Robin wax on about how his wife inspired him to go from a ne'er-do-well to a man of honor living a life with meaning. Then, Will informed Robin (and us) that Robin's wife hated  living in the woods and living a transient life, but she did it because she loved Robin so much. The take away Robin gets from this conversation is that he should go snog his wife's executioner while his wife lies dying. The writers want us to see this a great romance and wants us to cheer the snogging?

 

Because I do not and I did not. I get that the writers are going for some "epic love that cannot be denied" angle, but I'm just getting "giant douche" and "run, Marian, run".  What an absolutely snivelling jack-a-lope. When Woegina does a better job of doing the right thing and moving on than you do, you seriously need to rethink yourself. Meanwhile, the more I hear about Marian, the more I like her. She is the one that deserves a happy ending and I  no longer think that is with useless, whiny, feckless Robin.

 

In other news, Snow must have been using the royal "we" when she was talking about how "we" had let Emma down because Snow was the only one in the room that had done anything wrong. The snapping at Emma for Charming getting hurt was unreal.

 

Princess Aurora's son sure has some awesome neck muscles for a baby that was born 3 days ago (after she stopped being a flying monkey and the few days they've spent on the Elsa/Snow Queen mystery since).

 

I think his love for Belle was compromised after she tried to control him with the (fake) dagger.  He said, "how can I turn down the pleas of my beloved wife?"  The way he said it sounded sarcastic to me.

 

Yes, there was definitely some passive-aggressiveness going on there.

 

Helga was all kinds of awesome. I loved the telling off of Weaselton. Too bad her stepping in front of him wasn't considered an act of true love towards Ingrid since she was obviously doing it to protect Ingrid from herself. Helga is true love.

 

I did find it amusing that the princesses killed the kidnapper and happily doled out the ribbons from his kidnap kite while his crushed corpse lay nearby.

[YaddaYadda]

Helga was all kinds of awesome. I loved the telling off of Weaselton. Too bad her stepping in front of him wasn't considered an act of true love towards Ingrid since she was obviously doing it to protect Ingrid from herself. Helga is true love.

 

Helga was all kinds of awesome and sweet and understanding and incredibly kind, but Weasleton hid behind her, he sort of pulled her in front of him. 

 

Princess Aurora's son sure has some awesome neck muscles for a baby that was born 3 days ago (after she stopped being a flying monkey and the few days they've spent on the Elsa/Snow Queen mystery since).

And his name is Philip which doesn't bode well for Philip Sr since this show names children after dead people.

[tv echo]

It just seemed out of character for Emma to be so easily swayed by the Snow Queen's manipulation.  She should be smarter than that.  She starts off her interrogation of the Snow Queen with an attitude like 'you won't manipulate me' - but then she's totally manipulated.

 

Elizabeth Mitchell looked way too old to be playing the younger Ingrid with her two sisters.  But at least she showed more emotion than in all her previous TV roles combined.

 

I don't know if we really needed to see the Frozen plot reenacted with the previous generation - the deceptive lying suitor from Weaselton, the sisterly relationship, the loss of control, etc.  In the movie, Elsa was able to control her power and unfreeze Anna and her whole kingdom by using the reverse power of love.  So why doesn't she just impart that little bit of important info to the Snow Queen?

 

The Robin Hood & Regina scenes were just awkward.  I think the writers were going for something ike 'you have to fight for true love' or the overwhelming compulsion of true love, but it just came across as tawdry.  Also, it's like they had to hide Regina away so that we wouldn't ask the obvious questions -- Regina has magic so why isn't the Snow Queen interested in her?  And why can't Regina help Emma control her power, or why doesn't Emma go to Regina for help?

 

Snow's reactions to Emma's power just seemed contrived to serve the plot of having a poor, feared Emma.  Snow grew up in the Enchanted Forest, a land filled with magic.  She should be used to it.  That her daughter has magic shouldn't make Snow afraid of Emma.  In contrast to Arendelle, where the people there were unaware of (or, thanks to the rock troll, had forgotten about) magic and therefore feared it because it was unknown.

 

I may be in the minority, but I'm sick of Rumple/Gold being in everyone's back story and knowing everything and everyone.

[Primetimer]

Ingrid's backstory is moving, if familiar, as Once Upon A Time plows ahead.

Read the story

[RandomWatcher]

In the scene with the three sisters and Rumple, was that Mjolnir in the background?

[PepperMonkey]

Snow has always been a terrible mother to Emma, in my estimation. Charming's fatherly love towards her has been a bright spot in the show for me, even when many make fun of it. I love how they're the same age, but he still treats her like his daughter.

 

Snow Queen is still made of awesome. I, too, am going to hate to see this storyline end.

 

I'm betting Rumple has to kill Regina... because OMG, why don't we devote the whole back half of the season to SAVING REGINA???? That's why they've kind of kept her on the back burner for a few episodes and everyone is buying into her shit. She'll be the evil queen they must save to stop the worse evil of Rumplestiltskin. Team Rumple.

[Jean]

 

Regina has magic so why isn't the Snow Queen interested in her? 

 

Ingrid may be crazy but she values her hearing and can't tolerate the nonstop whining? She never learned how to swim so she's afraid that bringing that crybaby into the fold will flood her fabulous ice cave? And Woegina can use magic, but she's not inherently magical. Outside of Storybrook or anywhere without magic in the environment, she won't have powers. Ingrid, Elsa and Emma aren't just magical users, they're magical beings.

 

 

And why can't Regina help Emma control her power, or why doesn't Emma go to Regina for help?

Right because the thing Emma needs right now is to get yelled at for ruining lives. That'll help for sure. One of the best things about this story is that Victim Sue Woegina and her grubby hands are nowhere near it to suck the life out of the story. Thank you Disney.

 

Ingrid's line about baby Snowflake being born normal just means he'll be magical too, right? Maybe if he warms his own milk bottle, it'll bring Emma back from the ledge. I also hope at one point, Ingrid is holding Emma and Elsa at icicle point and forces them to put on her sisters' regency era dresses.

[stealinghome]

That was it! I knew there was something Snow had said before the bottle incident that irritated me and just compounded the flinching away thing. That was it. No, she wasn't intentionally trying to be mean or hurtful, but the comment was thoughtless and insensitive. Like, gee, Snow, how about you think before you speak so you don't say things like that to your other child who grew up with only a baby blanket?

I don't think that's fair. Snow can't spend the rest of her life having to be oh-so-careful about what she says, and tiptoeing around the fact that she loves Baby Snowflake, in case it hurts Emma's feelings. imo there's nothing wrong with saying "we just want to give our child everything." I understand why it made Emma flinch, but Snow wasn't at all out of line to say it. What's next, she's supposed to stop saying she loves Snowflake in case it freaks Emma out?

 

1. The monster line when they arrived to see the destruction was cruel. You know that one had to hurt. Snow needs to think before speaking. She didn't know who had done it or even what happened. Maybe someone drove into it? Maybe there was a bomb? Maybe your daughter is hurt? Check on it before you pass judgment.

I'm pretty sure Hook said that line, not Snow.

[angelwoody]

Did anyone else feel like Robin Hood's conversation with Wil is precisely what motivated him to go snog Regina in her creepy lair?  

 

When Wil was saying all of that stuff about True Love, I could see Robin really focusing on what he's saying.  Unfortunately, I don't think the person he was thinking of during Wil's speech was Marian.  I think it is what sent him flying into Regina's arms like a loser.  Especially the part about how true love makes you willing to ruin your life or whatever.  Instead of that heartfelt speech reminding him of what he and Marian had and the love they shared, it served as an epiphany and convinced him to throw his entire life away for Regina.  It's just so romantic!!!!  Blech.  

[Dani-Ellie]

Snow Queen has really played a number on her, but one would think those thoughts/doubts were probably in Emma already.

 

This is why I don't see Emma's blowup as out of nowhere. I personally think it's been building since the Echo Cave. (I fully admit that this may just be me wanting to tie some cohesiveness into the narrative, however.) That's why what the Snow Queen said affected her so deeply ... because she was afraid it was true. If she really believed the Snow Queen was just trying to blow smoke at her, she wouldn't have gotten so upset in the first place.

 

 

 

I understand why it made Emma flinch, but Snow wasn't at all out of line to say it. What's next, she's supposed to stop saying she loves Snowflake in case it freaks Emma out?

 

No, of course not, and I'm not arguing that. I was just arguing for a little sensitivity. Snow is clearly having a hard time with Neal vis a vis what she missed out on with Emma and she's not telling Emma about it; it's not outside the realm of possibilty that Emma would be having a hard time with it as well and wouldn't be telling her. It's the same problem I had with Snow after the Echo Cave, where she was hurt and angry over David's secret but never seemed to stop and think that Emma might be hurt and angry over hers.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[InsertWordHere]

Hook did say that line and while it had to hurt Emma, it was just an ill-timed comment. If he had said it last week about the Snow Queen, Emma would not have thought anything about it at all. Perhaps it's an indicator that people should think twice before calling others monsters (someone tell Grumpy), but there was no malicious intent.

[FurryFury]

So, Ingrid, welcome to the Storybrooke Misunderstood Villains society! We don't have cookies, but there are apple turnovers, bright makeup and flashy low-cut dresses. Well, I suppose you have one of those already, but whatever.

 

I feel like this episode is just yet another one in a long line of character-assassinating stories, but FWIW, I did enjoy the Snow Queen's flashback story. It was much more moving and made much more sense than either Regina or Zelena (Rumple's was still the best in retrospect). And Gerda urn-ing her sister at the moment she needed her help was really very cold (BTW, I think I've missed something - where did the damn urn come from?) I could understand it, but still, cold.

 

The other stuff:

 

That opening flashback had really horrible child actors. And some very clunky dialogue, too.

 

Am I the only one who feels that Regina/Robin scenes are basically the same every episode? I've FF'd through both and only read the dialogue to spare me the pain of watching them, anyway.

 

I was spoiled about the Princesses' baby club, but this was a really nice scene (until Snow fucked up - ugh, so contrived!) I miss this stuff, and the show needs. Also, great to see Cinderella and Aurora again. Although... wasn't Cindy's baby a girl?

 

Wow, Arendelle sure doesn't give a damn about standard marrying age. Weird to see three unmarried princesses in their late 20s to mid 30s.

 

"Family isn't about blood" - too bad Adam and Eddy disagree. Except when it comes to Regina, because she's that awesome.

 

Still hate Robin. Can't help it, he's disgusting. And does the show really want to parallel him stealing horses with Regina's mass murders and rape? Seriously? I won't even touch the kiss because at this point I was trying my damnedest to avoid vomiting all over my laptop.

 

And Emma. Emma and her parents and Hook and everything... Ugh. It's just. So. Stupid. Contrived. Lazy. All in service of the plot, without any regard for characterization. I don't believe that Snow would be afraid of Emma, ever. I don't believe Emma would be THAT easy to manipulate.

 

Overall, I have mixed impression of this episode, but, I guess, mostly negative.

Edited November 10, 2014 by FurryFury

[thuganomics85]

 

(BTW, I think I've missed something - where did the damn urn come from?)

Apparently, Rumple threw it in there with the gloves as part of the deal.  Basically, he said it was a "fail safe", in case things really went south.  Only reason I remember that, because I started wondering if Rumple does bundles like that for everyone.  Hell, maybe on good days, he does 50% off magical merchandise during the holidays, and Buy Two Spells, Get The Third One Free! deals on Black Friday.  Got to keep the customers coming back!

[Jean]

 

So, sat on it and I agree and I've been saying that DQ probably messed with Emma's magic somehow to push her agenda along.

I think she was successful in emotionally manipulating Emma but I do think the exploding wall was all Emma. Ingrid was too much of a "proud parent" for it to be her magic making it look like it was Emma's. It was the same look she had when Elsa broke free of her chains. She genuinely wants them to be as powerful as they can be. She'd be the type that if E&E brought her down by their magic, she'd tell them how proud she was with her dying breath. Speaking of which, they're going to totally go for the Velveeta and have Ingrid reunited with her sisters in the afterlife aren't they?

 

As for Emma's doubts, I think Elsa started the ball rolling. Not that it was Elsa's fault in any way but Emma is generally oblivious and Elsa pointed out the family looking at her differntly thing. That primed Emma to specifically look for stuff that she wouldn't have noticed before. I think the one thing they were trying to do but failed is that Ingrid was successful because she was Emma's foster mom and knows her best out of everyone. It just doesn't track because we haven't gotten that flashback of them when they were together as mom and kid. Maybe they should've done that flashback first before Ingrid's. Or maybe they should've let Emma regain her memories of Ingrid first which would make her more vulnerable to Ingrid.

[KingOfHearts]

Did I hear it right that Aurura named her baby Phillip? I hope her husband didn't die or anything.

(I know the actor is busy on another show.)