S08.E12: Death In Heaven

[GirlWednesday]

Worst line of the episode:"do as you are told"

My immediate reaction: bitch check yourself, that's the doctor you are speaking to. Your supposed sudden best friend you have been persecuting this whole series.

Glad series 8 is over. Looking forward to new blood for companion. Clara needs to stay gone.

Edited November 9, 2014 by GirlWednesday

[ABay]

As much as I hate the set-up, the Doctor saluting CyberBrig made me tear up a little. This is a first for the Moffat tenure--I actually felt something, in a good way.

[tv-talk]

but what happened to Cyber-Brig? Did he just go blow himself up or what? I thought he shot Missy after Danny had led rest of Cyber-bores to do whatever? Of course I may have missed what exactly happened...but as I recall it Cyber-Brig just flew away, now a robotic version of himself?

[starri]

It's one of those little tics of Moffat's that drives me insane:  Just don't think about it too hard or you'll give yourself an aneurysm.

[Mr. Simpatico]

Probably, along with every other former companion who has died off-screen. Like I said, this episode was horrifically awful. I will never forgive Moffat for doing that to the Brigadier - and after such a lovely tribute a couple of seasons ago. It wasn't respectful. It was horrific....

 

Except that the show has made it clear that Clara has no memory of jumping into the timestream. Maybe she got her hands on the Doctor's collection of 500 year diaries or something.

 

Four wives. That's the original wife who was Susan's grandmother. Then there's River Song, Elizabeth I and didn't the 11th Doctor say something about marrying Marilyn Monroe? So, four wives and three of them come from the Moffat era. Says it all. And people accuse the Davies era of being a soap opera - it's got nothing on Moffat.

 

I had serious problems with the Brig as Cyberman scene. It's not only ghoulish - this is how the Brigadier ends up, turned into a Cyberman after death - but considering NuWho refused to have Nick Courtney on the show while he was alive and very willing - to do this after a proper acknowledgement of Courtney's death by saying the Brig had died was really....tasteless. Just IMHO. 

 

I was upset at Kate's seemingly blink and you miss it death (since she is not a character created by Moffat) but then she was saved so except for some redshirts and Osgood there were no consequences to this invasion either.

 

I have no problems with Osgood being killed (Moffat can kill any of his OWN characters as far as I'm concerned) but with the way it was done - with the Doctor noting basically she was good companion material (so viewers prepare for something that doesn't happen), stupid behavior from Osgood's perspective (she's read the file on The Master and still does what Missy says) and Missy's excuse - "I'm crazy" - just dilutes the Master's menace. Delgado would never have that excuse. Heck, even Ainley Master who was notoriously over the top wouldn't have done so. Just making the Master nuts (first Simm and now Gomez) is not a convincing way of making them the Doctor's arch-nemesis. Though maybe that's Moffat's speciality - his version of Moriarty was insane as well. What does that say about real criminal masterminds? That they are all touched in the head?

 

As for Clara. I'm torn. Jenna Coleman's so pretty (I like pretty actors what can I say) and yet Clara's so obnoxious. And her entire set-up with the Doctor was organized by The Master just because she knew Clara's personality flaws and knew the Doctor (and it would have been 11 and not 12 at the time) couldn't resist her? WTF? So the point of the The Impossible Girl was what again? And how does she know all these facts about the Doctor (including Jenny) if she doesn't remember about the Impossible Girl timelines? Is that a bio of the Doctor on the Tardis? And if she does remember meeting the Doctor across all his lifetimes why did she continually treat 12 like crap especially after his regeneration?

 

I used to think the Doctor marrying Elizabeth I was a joke. But no...and Marilyn Monroe? Is this fanfiction (I mean River Song herself seems like an author-insert OC character right out of fanfiction). And what does that say about the Doctor's first wife? Was she a joke too, Moffat? And he really doesn't know what happened to his children and grandchildren? Even though the 1st Doctor explicitly said he would return and it's canon (from the Sara Jane Adventures) that 10 saw ALL his companions through time (including I guess Susan) before he regenerated. And why wouldn't 12 make it his business to find out about his family since this is a new set of regenerations and according to Moffat both 11 and 12 are obsessed with Gallifrey (although this is the first episode with 12 that particular plot point has been brought up).

 

I don't know. This whole finale didn't work. It's like all the Burton/Schumacher Batman movies past the one with Jack Nicholson. The studio though all the movies NEEDED two super-villains to make them work even though the first didn't and they all were a mess. So we have The Master/Cybermen invasion, rising the dead, guest appearance by CyberBrig, needless deaths, more love story angst with Cyber!Danny and Clara, the Doctor cracking jokes, Clara pretending to be the Doctor, allusions to previous Doctors, Cyber!Danny saving the world while the Doctor does nothing, the Master maybe-but-not-really dead, the world returning to normal, Dead!Danny somehow bringing the kid he killed back to life and leaving him with Clara, Clara having news for the Doctor (I presume she's pregnant or something so Orson could happen) but the Doctor breaking up with her and oh yeah...Santa Claus.  

 

This is more complicated than the Daleks' Master Plan and that serial lasted hours. It's like Moffat refuses to tell a simple story even though the parameters of Doctor Who storytelling have changed (now just an hour instead of a 3-4 or more part serial).

 

Also - I really thought the Doctor's crack about the U.S. (whatever politics you believe in) was a cheap shot and something the Doctor would not do (even Capaldi's). One of the worst examples of a writer using the Doctor as their own mouthpiece.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Mr. Simpatico

[Endeavour]

I know my interpretations of a scene are almost never what the writers were trying to say, but it occurred to me that the scene in Dark Water where Clara has post-it notes all over could be her way of trying to figure out just when Danny got her pregnant and what she's been exposed to since then. If she knows all about Amy & Rory and the effect of time travel on a human fetus she might be wondering about giving birth to a little Time Lord herself

Please...just...a world of no.

[Lugal]

First off i ususally like Moffatt episodes. I find them thrilling and fun and useually the best in the series. if you do not like Moffatt you will always complain about his episodes regardless of the quality or entertainment value.

Not really.  I still find Girl in the Fireplace and Blink to be some of the best episodes in the series.  Moffat's problem is as a showrunner. He should have someone to reign him in.   I don't like the lack of consistency and constant repeating of Moffat's favorite themes, like the whole Impossible Girl arc was kind of "Girl in the Fireplace" writ large.

[benteen]

but what happened to Cyber-Brig? Did he just go blow himself up or what? I thought he shot Missy after Danny had led rest of Cyber-bores to do whatever? Of course I may have missed what exactly happened...but as I recall it Cyber-Brig just flew away, now a robotic version of himself?

 

Yep.  He shot Missy and pointed the Doctor to wear his daughter was.  He flew away.  Hopefully he gets a mustache and starts kicking ass around the galaxy.

[Ringthane]

He did appear on Sarah Jane Adventures.

 

Yeah, but that's not Doctor Who.  As good as that show was, it's not Doctor Who.  Which is where the Brig started, and which is where he should have made at least one appearance. 

[Ringthane]

if you do not like Moffatt you will always complain about his episodes regardless of the quality or entertainment value.

 

Not true - I love "Blink" and the "Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead" two-parter.  Moffatt really has a gift for taking ordinary things - statues, a library - and creating great stories out of them.  Also, those are two great examples of the series creating amazing new villians that are not only original, but scary as well - something that's fallen by the wayside of late (except for the Mummy and the Boneless).  I also love "Coupling" - I don't know how many times I've watched those.

 

As others have said, Moffatt's problem with DW seems to be that he has all these ideas, and there's nobody either willing to say "Well, OK, but where do we go from there?", or with the power to say so.  Moffatt's reign reminds me of John Nathan-Turner's from the classic series - from what I've read, JNT was much the same way. There's just been too many times in the last few years when people are saying "Oh, come on", or if there had been a little more thought put into the writing, some of these clunkers would have been reworked or abandoned for better things.  I mean, did the Doctor seriously almost ask one of the Merry Men for a urine sample?  Did that really happen?  Did we really have an interesting story about trees taking over the world reduced to a teacher scaring off a tiger with a flashlight and a feel-good story about trees saving mankind?  Did the Moon really turn out to be an egg that hatched and produced a creature that immediately turned around and laid another Moon egg? Did those things really happen on Doctor Who? 

Edited November 10, 2014 by Ringthane

[marceline]

 

Also - I really thought the Doctor's crack about the U.S. (whatever politics you believe in) was a cheap shot and something the Doctor would not do (even Capaldi's). One of the worst examples of a writer using the Doctor as their own mouthpiece.

 

I rather enjoy when Doctor Who takes shots at America. My favorite is in The Impossible Astronaut when Eleven is in the Oval Office and begins to tease the Secret Service agents. He says "I don't think you're going to shoot me," then Amy reminds him that they're Americans and he jumps out of the chair with his hands in the air because he remembers how gun happy we are.

[elle]

What a fitting end to Dr Who's relationship with his abuser, Clara.  May she never return.  She was a villain, and it really didn't work for me.  Imagine Captain Kirk having to deal with Khan as his sidekick every episode.

Well, at least there would be some sexual tension. . .

and no budget for special effects.  Imagine the much chewed through scenery! ;0)

[ganesh]

As others have said, Moffatt's problem with DW seems to be that he has all these ideas, and there's nobody either willing to say "Well, OK, but where do we go from there?", or with the power to say so.

 

I think the problem is everything has to be big big Big All The Time. The moon was going to hatch. The whole planet was going to burn. Can they just tell an adventure story? Can they just tell a spooky story?

 

The episode on the train was kind of what I mean, but even then it was Clara's Last Ride.

Edited November 10, 2014 by ganesh

[Jeezaloo]

would Amy and Rory have become Cybermen?

I can't understand why the answer to this question could possibly be "no". What in-story mechanism prevents only these two corpses from being resurrected? In what episode was that mechanism established?

 

Of course they should have become Cybermen - along with every foe and ally of the Doctor who was ever buried on Earth. It's the sort of plot-hole-so-big-you-can-drive-a-truck-through-it that Moffat is giving himself the reputation for writing.

[WatchrTina]

 

I'm kind of pissed that Missy killed Osgood.

I'm not convinced that Missy's gizmo killed people.  I know she told Osgood she was going to kill her but the Doctor lies so why can't Missy?  I've fan-wanked that they were teleported somewhere (and so was Missy at the end.)  Didn't we see that exact plot point in the episode earlier in the season where they robbed the bank?

 

I have to say that I like this episode much more that the rest of the season.  It was exciting and touching and I couldn't foresee how they were going to get out of this predicament.  But I didn't understand the magical bracelet and the whole bit about "one person, one trip" at the end where the kid was sent through to Clara instead of Danny, so the show loses points for plot clarity.  But I still enjoyed it.  I hope that Clara really is gone (I never warmed up to her) and I'm still hopeful that Osgood gets to check "all of time & space" off her bucket list by traveling with the Doctor, even if it is just for one episode (preferably the Christmas Special.)

[Starchild]

Kate Stewart was brilliant in her few small scenes. I'd actually love her to be a new Companion.

I'd like to see a male companion. It's been ages since the main companion has been male.

[Starchild]

I can't understand why the answer to this question could possibly be "no". What in-story mechanism prevents only these two corpses from being resurrected? In what episode was that mechanism established?

 

Of course they should have become Cybermen - along with every foe and ally of the Doctor who was ever buried on Earth. It's the sort of plot-hole-so-big-you-can-drive-a-truck-through-it that Moffat is giving himself the reputation for writing.

 

I'm fairly certain it was said during the UNIT meeting on the plane that while all cemeteries were active, not every dead body was. In other words it was happening all over the world, but only a certain percentage of the dead was coming back. Not everyone.

[Ochan35]

Yeah, but that's not Doctor Who.  As good as that show was, it's not Doctor Who.  Which is where the Brig started, and which is where he should have made at least one appearance. 

 

You're right it's not Doctor Who.

It's the Doctor Who expanded universe which Torchwood is also a part of. But Sarah Jane has the advantage of having both the 10th and 11th Doctor appear in key episodes in that series. Heck, you had closure on Jo Grant's story arc with the Doctor on that show. Just because something is a spin-off doesn't mean it's relevant in the overall fandom much like how Angel managed to enhance the Buffyverse and it's characters. I feel that by watching Torchwood and Sarah Jane it  made me appreciate the Series 4 finale and the finale moments of End of Time even more!

 

Tying this back into the Series 8 discussion while I initially thought the Brigadier reveal was kind off cool the fridge horror set in that they took a respected character and turned him into a Cyberman for no reason. I really do think Moffatt is getting full of himself at this point.

[tarotx]

Amy and Rory have been dead for a while so who knows how much of their organic matter would still be around to be used. They also died in New York so you can imagine them being awake protecting each other as Cybermen. 

 

But my fan wonk is since Cybermen don't kill each other per say, there wouldn't have any one around for a promise of love to conflict with the need to feel no emotion.

 

And for me the only issue I had was the boy's return. There should be no body. If that didn't happen the episode would have been great imo. It went against the whole timelord tech memory database and made it an actual Afterlife with a bracelet that can reconstitute bodies from memories. Not just in a computer world but real life. I guess it's time to reconstitute River from her computer. Though maybe he's an Auton duplicate. Or perhaps the version of himself from an alternate reality. Or perhaps an almost people version of himself. Since we are talking about Robots made from particles and organic material who knows anything goes.  I need to know what happens with the boy to be able to figure out what actually happened. 

 

I enjoyed the episode though. I know if you don't like the relationships the emotions and and power a promise of love can have loses it's value. This story would have been served better with more established characters or new characters who have a established history together. Though quite a few fans of Buffy hated that Xander saved the world with love in their s6 finale. In a lot of ways this Who season felt like their take on what was happening in that Buffy season. 

[ketose]

I think the problem is that Moffat wrote some good one (and two) offs in his time and now he seems to treat each season as a single, plot thin story arc. Star Trek fans loved "The Inner Light" and "The Visitor," but they were isolated stories. "Blink" was a good story, but it kept getting resurrected until the Weeping Angels made no sense. Plus, it was where "timey-wimey" was invented. Then we have Davies atrocities like "Love and Monsters" even though he was more solid as a show runner.

[AudienceofOne]

I could sit here and list everything that was wrong with this episode and the whole season but I've decided to just stick with one that's been bothering me for a long time.

 

Timelords are telephathic and, while they usually need physical contact with other species, when it comes to other Timelords that can't just communicate telepathically over long distances they can also sense the existence of other Timelords and recognise other Timelords on sight, regardless of their physical appearance.

 

So the idea that: Missy has been running around through time and space without the Doctor sensing her; that the Doctor didn't recognise her as the Master on sight but actually fell for her 'bot' routine; and the idea that Gallifrey, with hundred of Timelords, came back into our Universe and he didn't know is just fucking ridiculous.

 

Fact is, Moffatt's period as a showrunner has now gone from bad to offensive.

 

Edited because there was one other thing that really really pissed me off. Brigadier Lethbridge Stewart as a Cyberman. Fuck you, Moffatt. No, really.

Edited November 10, 2014 by AudienceofOne

[companionenvy]

I developed a little more sympathy for at least a certain amount of handwaving of details after I wrote a few of my own Doctor Who fanfics and realized how hard it could be to maintain logistical coherence without slipping into excessive exposition. I can't fully articulate when expecting the audience to fanwank an explanation is OK and when it isn't, and that line is going to be different for different people, but MOST of this finale worked for me. 

 

For me, I think the two essential criteria, in determining whether or not I'm going to accept something a little wonky are a) can I myself come up with a reasonably plausible explanation, even if the show doesn't spell it out and b) is it essential to the story being told, on a narrative and emotional level, and do I like that story? In the case of The Angels Take Manhattan, which I hated, the answer to both was a resounding no. As I have yet to hear any non-bogus reason that the Doctor couldn't have either picked up Amy and Rory a couple of years later or parked the TARDIS elsewhere and gotten to New York by old-fashioned transportation, I can't forgive the plot hole. Beyond that, there wasn't anything particularly satisfying about that end for these two characters. It seemed that the series was heading for the moment when the two would choose to stop traveling, but instead that choice gets taken out of their hands, and as the story had done the "Amy and Rory's love is so strong they will die for each other" thing multiple times in the past, that element wasn't particularly resonant. 

 

On the other hand, I find myself able to pretty easily think of potential explanations for at least some of the plot holes people are raising about Death in Heaven:

 

- The Doctor has been canonically unable to sense the presence of other Timelords before, so that rule never made much sense in the first place, but here I'm okay assuming that either the Master was shielding or that the Doctor himself was just psychologically unable to process what he should have already known.

 

-For the child, maybe one property of the bracelet is the ability to reconstruct the body from trace DNA combined with the person's own psychic projection. It is already essentially a magical object, so I'm okay with it having its own special set of rules. As for what Clara will do with him, well, she could turn him over to UNIT and have them use their resources to find his parents and figure out what to tell them, or else just create false papers that would allow him to be adopted by a willing family. 

 

- I don't see any contradiction in the Master nearly killing the Doctor while also wanting his friendship back. Except for certain very specific circumstances, the Doctor regenerates. Missy has no particular investment in Twelve, so why should she have compunction over forcing a regeneration? She's done it before.

 

- I don't assume that Danny and the Brig were the only people to retain some sense of self during the conversion; they're just the only ones who were relevant in this episode. In any case, there are also reasons that those two particular characters may have been less susceptible than others; Danny had just died and had also had the experience of talking to Clara post-death to connect him to his human life, while the Brigadier is familiar with the cybermen and more likely than most to figure out what was happening to him and resist. The very fact that Seb was asking for consent seems to suggest that there is some reason willing victims would be better than unwilling ones, perhaps precisely because some level of rejection is possible, as we've seen in a couple of previous stories. 

 

Again, though, what is more important for me is that these things were all essential to the telling of what I considered an effective and moving story. That story really wouldn't have packed the same punch if Danny hadn't, for instance, saved the child over himself, and so I'm willing to fill in the logical gaps. It isn't like Forest of the Night, which would have functioned perfectly well without the nonsense about Maebh's sister.

Edited November 10, 2014 by companionenvy

[Llywela]

I developed a little more sympathy for at least a certain amount of handwaving of details after I wrote a few of my own Doctor Who fanfics and realized how hard it could be to maintain logistical coherence without slipping into excessive exposition. I can't fully articulate when expecting the audience to fanwank an explanation is OK and when it isn't, and that line is going to be different for different people, but MOST of this finale worked for me.

I've written a fair bit of fanfic as well. No, it isn't easy to maintain a balance between keeping things moving and providing the exposition necessary to explain what's going on, and it can be harder to make a story do what you want it to do when you have to obey the rules of the show's internal logic, but you have to do that anyway because that's what gives your story credibility and integrity. Take that away and all you are left with is a god-awful mess. As a writer, sometimes you have to accept that the thing you wanted to do simply doesn't work. So you mourn the idea, save the concept for a rainy day, and find a new direction, a way to make the story work. Being able to get it right is what professional writers are paid for, so it is reasonable to expect a showrunner to at least try. But I think the trouble with Moffat is that if he has a choice between maintaining internal integrity or achieving the 'cool' set-piece he's set his heart on, he'll go with the cool set-piece every time, logic and credibility be damned.

 

Yes, we can fanwank explanations for some of the holes in this plot, but we shouldn't have to - and we can't fanwank all of them. And it still leaves the awful contrivances and inappropriateness.

 

No, this was just a really bad episode, for me.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Llywela

[futurechemist]

Having finally seen the episode, I agree with some people here that there were some interesting ideas, but the execution was kind of a mess.  The whole Cybermen + dead people thing was kind of done in the S2 finale.  And there was too much head-scratching over the logistics.  They clearly showed cybermen coming out of graves from the 18th century, when all that would be left are bones with no organic matter.  Not to mention what would happen to minds when the body was cremated (from the early scenes last week, they were clearly prepared for that possibility).  Also, why wouldn't the cyber-pollen-rain convert living people and animals into cybermen, shouldn't that be even easier to accomplish?

 

I was sad to see Missy "killed".  She was a good enough character to leave her around.  Maybe they could have ended it with Missy pleading for her life, and offering to tell the Doctor Gallifrey's coordinates in exchange for her freedom.  He makes the trade and she teleports out, next scene is the Doctor flipping out because Gallifrey isn't there.  But that's just my idea.

 

I thought the Brigadier "cameo" was sweet without thinking about it too much.  And this was a suitably dysfunctional way for Clara to leave.  I hope they bring on 1 of the guest stars from this year as a new companion.  Or maybe Psi + Sabra as 2 new companions.

Edited November 10, 2014 by futurechemist

[starri]

 

Then we have Davies atrocities like "Love and Monsters" even though he was more solid as a show runner.

But Davies as showrunner also wrote "Boomtown," "Partners in Crime," "Turn Left," and "The Stolen Earth" while he was calling all the shots.

 

As much as I love "Blink" and while "Silence in the Library" might be my second-favorite RTD-era episode depending on my mood, I just can't think of an episode that Moffat wrote in his tenure that approached that level of quality except maybe, MAYBE "The Impossible Astronaut" and "Let's Kill Hitler" and even those hang more on some clever moments than the plot as whole.

 

I'm not entirely sure my fondness for "Blink" isn't just due to the incredibly perfect casting of Carey Mulligan, for that matter.

 

ETA:  Also, I should include "The Snowmen" on Moffat's credit list, and lament again that it wasn't that incarnation of Clara that became his companion.

Edited November 10, 2014 by starri

[John Potts]

Overall, I would say this  episode was... OK. Sure there were plotholes and discontinuities, wonky science and handwaves, but overall it rattled along and kept my interest, with only a couple of moments when I was tempted to fast forward (basically, the Danny/Clara scenes). I really enjoyed Michelle Gomez as the Master/Mistress (and loved the little in joke of having the Master have a degree from Glasgow University - her and Peter Capaldi's hometown) and I didn't need Word of God to tell me that he/she will be back (I hope it's this incarnation, who I thought was great - crazy but fun).

 

Llywela Except that the show has made it clear that Clara has no memory of jumping into the timestream.

Well, "made it clear" except when it appears she does remember.

 

benteen Those two guards however...how the hell didn't they notice Missy slipping her cuffs and Osgood holding her handcuffs?

If there's one multiversal constant - it's that guards are completey useless!

 

Jamoche You say "Ha! I knew Turn Undead would come in handy someday!"

 

Ha! Please accept my award of 1000 Nerd XP.

[jelaine]

My question after watching this season is: does Moffat even like the Doctor?

[ganesh]

I think he likes him fine. I think he was trying to do something different with the Doctor. Ten and Eleven were basically versions of Two, no? The Doctor has been kind of unlikeable before. And that's fine, but the whole whining by Clara all the time really took away from it. The whole part-time companion concept mucked it up.

 

I think Twelve might have been better served with one or two completely solo episodes.

[OakGoblinFly]

I'm kind of pissed that Missy killed Osgood.  What the hell ?

 

 

 

I know!

 

And what does it say about this series that I was more upset at Osgood's demise than I was about anything that Happened to Danny and Clara?

 

And I fear what the "I'm the Doctor" bit that Clara pulled (twice this season) means for the future.

 

I got so tired of people ordering the Doctor around this season - 

[OakGoblinFly]

I was thinking the same thing, does that mean we will be seeing more of Clara so we find that out though? I really feel like Clara walking away is a trick and at Christmas (or next season) she'll be there and Moffatt will be saying "Surprise! I tricked you, she's back!"

 

 

What's the return policy on that gift?

[tv-talk]

I'm not one to get too caught up in the straight science of Doctor Who (just sound remotely plausible, please) or inconsistencies in the plot (the show has been on for decades afterall!) but the more I think about Iron Brigadier back from the dead just for the salute scene the more I accept how terrible Moffat so often gets. I mean there is surely footage of the Brig saluting in Classic Who that could be cgi'd with Capaldi to create a super brief scene where the Doctor salutes...that wouldnt have been great but at least it wouldnt be borderline offensive to so many fans. Remember Danny thought being a Cyberman was so awful all he wanted was to die. That's it, he wanted to be fully dead and done with a 2nd chance at life (albeit life as a cyborg). So that's what the beloved Brig gets from Moffat, a fate worse than death. Terrific. Could have done much better with Capaldi just being very regretful he never did salute his old friend.

[LoneHaranguer]

 

She was zapped by CyberBrig but I'm sure it'll be established later on that she transported away.

Or that she had the magical Gallifreyan technology programmed to bring her back if anything happened. Maybe even into a clone of the same body if they want to use the same actress again.

 

JMHO, but the Doctor's reaction when he went to Gallifrey's coordinates seemed more consistent with finding a destroyed Gallifrey than no Gallifrey.

[Linderhill]

 

- Bringing back the Master as an OTT Mary Poppins.  I cringed at the overacting.  Despite her killing Osgood, I found Missy more silly than frightening.

Ugh, me too.  All I could think at the end when the Doctor and Clara were debating who would kill her was that they needed to shut up and do it once and for all.  The Master has completely worn out his/her welcome for me and is just tiresome.  Each time John Sim would pop up before was a groan worthy moment for me. (again with the crazy? face it Doctor, the guy is irredeemable).  

 

I didn't mind Clara as a companion and actually liked her in this episode.  But then I liked Martha too and was thoroughly sick of Donna and Amy and Rory by the time they got rid of them.  I'm kind of used to these unpopular opinions.  

 

As for the episode I wasn't particularly impressed.  Missy's character was one of those that just couldn't wait until someone offed her, she was just that awful.  

[RachelKM]

 

- Bringing back the Master as an OTT Mary Poppins.  I cringed at the overacting.  Despite her killing Osgood, I found Missy more silly than frightening.

Ditto, if by "silly" you mean FUCKING ANNOYING.

[Snorfbat]

Credits of a certain TV show, 2014.

 

Credits of a certain TV show, 1968.

[starri]

 

One thing that I couldn't quite parse:  how did the Clockwork Robot from "Deep Breath" end up in the Nethersphere?  He wasn't human.  For that matter, how did the redshirt in "Into the Dalek?"

[Llywela]

 

One thing that I couldn't quite parse:  how did the Clockwork Robot from "Deep Breath" end up in the Nethersphere?  He wasn't human.  For that matter, how did the redshirt in "Into the Dalek?"

Well, the redshirt was explained (sort of) by Missy saying she'd been 'up and down the Doctor's timeline', by which she presumably meant his last few adventures only, because otherwise it makes as little logistical sense as anything else in this story. The clockwork robot I can't explain - it didn't have a living consciousness to harvest. It was just a scene devised to build anticipation for the seasonal plot, or whatever. Whoever said those needed to make sense? *sigh*

[ABay]

Oh, yeah! All of those beings culled early in the season should've shown up. There was no pay-off.

[roomtorome]

I thought the WWI references were fairly obvious - I didn't mind though it was clumsy and not particularly creative.

 

I don't mind him (PC) as the Doctor.  I'm not bowled over by him - he's just okay for me but it is Clara who is just not at all making it for me.  I can't say what it is - maybe it is the lack of chemistry between the two or it is the direction of the actress, I don't know but she's ruining it for me.  I expect she will be back - I can't recall anyone leaving so quickly from the series.

[Cruella]

I can't believe how naive you guys are (( Patting show on the back for killing off Danny... But Clara must be happy, it's the most important thing in the universe, and Santa Clause said that it must be fixed... They'll "fix" Danny, it's Moffat, nobody dies, at least not if they are annoying. I sure hope I am wrong.

 

So, most of humanity spent their afterlife in some super server i.e. "cloud" of Gallifreyan technology, then had to awaken as zombies, and kill themselves again in form of cyborgs? It is so ridiculous and depressing my mind refuses to consider it a canon. As was asked before, who did turn off THEIR feelings?

 

Can someone clarify it for me? So, Dr. Who has an afterlife, it's established, right? You can take metal bracelets into afterlife and push out flesh and blood children out of it? I mean, Danny gets bracelet, blows up in the sky, goes to afterlife (with a bracelet??) and somehow pushes out the kid? Ok, that can't be right. So did he push the kid out before being reborn as a cyberman? Sort of projected him into... uh... something?

[Eozostrodon]

My question after watching this season is: does Moffat even like the Doctor?

Funnily enough there's one RTD-era episode commentary where Moffat goes into a little speech about what makes the Doctor the Doctor, and it boiled down to, "He's completely ordindary and not special in any way, he just has the give of the gab." I can't remember the full thing but I was slightly shocked and dismayed when I heard it because his perception of the Doctor seemed so negative. So I think he really does see the Doctor differently from most fans, i.e. not a hero or special at all. The polar opposite to RTD's Doctor-worship. For God's sake can't we have a showrunner who's in the middle?

[cambridgeguy]

 

I expect she will be back - I can't recall anyone leaving so quickly from the series.

She's been in the role for about 1.5 seasons (or series if you prefer the UK term).  That's about the same as Martha and longer than Donna. 

 

She'll no doubt get a Christmas miracle of some sort thanks to Santa but that may be it until some big reunion special.  The tenth anniversary of the new series is coming up, after all, and Moffat may want everyone back like Davies when he steps down.

[elle]

So, most of humanity spent their afterlife in some super server i.e. "cloud" of Gallifreyan technology, then had to awaken as zombies, and kill themselves again in form of cyborgs? It is so ridiculous and depressing my mind refuses to consider it a canon. As was asked before, who did turn off THEIR feelings?

This was the reason why I said "no" to the question of Amy and Rory becoming Cybermen.  They would fight to the bitter end of whatever-sphere to keep the feelings they have for one another.

[Cruella]

But they'd still be cyberman, just not fully integrated, like Danny. There is probably a couple of malfunctional cybermen too busy trying to pork to sacrifice themselves out there somewhere.

 

I am personally more interested to understand where was Danny Pink supposed to return from (and a kid did return from).

[mac123x]

That was fucking awful.  The allegedly dramatic rainfall and water ominously rising... oh noes!  I was rolling my eyes.  Puddles of water are not in the same ballpark as shadows or statues that move when you don't look at them, as far as menace-factor goes.

 

I started taking notes during the episode because I was so bored.  Most of them have been covered already. but one question I had: Why did Cyber!Danny drop Clara off in a fucking graveyard?  He'd just rescued her from some other Cybermen, and he sets her down in what was basically a Cyber-hatchery.  Dumb dumb dumb.

 

When she basically ordered the doctor to come solve her problem despite the fact that, you know, the whole world was in danger,  I wanted to punch Clara in the mouth.  Seriously, lady?  Death and destruction and the end of the human race is at hand, but no, the Doctor has to help you push some buttons.

 

 

I'd like to see a male companion. It's been ages since the main companion has been male.

 

I can't remember when the last time was the Doctor had a solo-male companion.  I guess Turlough technically was solo between the time they dropped off Tegan and picked up Peri, which was the next serial.  Before that, Jamie and Two?

[AudienceofOne]

The allegedly dramatic rainfall and water ominously rising

 

 

It reminded of this terrible film I once saw about people who were supposed to die in a plane crash but didn't so "fate" came for all of them. Was that Final Destination? Anyway, "fate" kept coming in the form of water and, as well as not being scary, by the end of the film I was yelling "Oh noes, the EVIL WATER. It's the EVIL WATER. Run from the EVIL trickle, people. RUN".

 

I had the same reaction to this.

[elle]

It reminded of this terrible film I once saw about people who were supposed to die in a plane crash but didn't so "fate" came for all of them. Was that Final Destination? Anyway, "fate" kept coming in the form of water and, as well as not being scary, by the end of the film I was yelling "Oh noes, the EVIL WATER. It's the EVIL WATER. Run from the EVIL trickle, people. RUN".

 

I had the same reaction to this.

Heh.  I saw a similar movie, but it was the wind blowing that would single the approach of doom.  Might have been one of the sequels.

 

You know last time it rained odd rain, the only thing that happened was a hospital wound up on the moon with a platoon of Jadoon.

 

Dumb dumb dumb.

 

 

An excellent summary!

 

I can't remember when the last time was the Doctor had a solo-male companion.  I guess Turlough technically was solo between the time they dropped off Tegan and picked up Peri, which was the next serial.  Before that, Jamie and Two?

What about the trio from UNIT,  Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart, Captain Mike Yates and Sergeant Benton?  Or didn't they travel with the Doctor?

[ketose]

That was Final Destination 1. I think they made about 200 sequels.

 

I have no doubt Capaldi has the chops for this. I only have to think back to Torchwood Series 3 (which was generally bad) and how much emotion he brought to his character and what he was faced with. Sadly, I can't see it very often with 12.

 

Watching his "I'm not a good man" bit with Misty, I notice he's developing awful catch phrases like "Shut up!" and "Idiot." Now we get another Christmas special, even though there is supposedly no Heaven or afterlife. I can only think of 2 good Christmas specials, the first and maybe "The Next Doctor."

[elle]

That was Final Destination 1. I think they made about 200 sequels.

 

As much as I hate horror movies, those Final Destination movies have a circular logic that ties them all together.  Made a lot more sense that this past season too.

 

maybe "The Next Doctor."

I wish he had been and brought along his companion!

[benteen]

Heh.  I saw a similar movie, but it was the wind blowing that would single the approach of doom.  Might have been one of the sequels.

 

You know last time it rained odd rain, the only thing that happened was a hospital wound up on the moon with a platoon of Jadoon.

 

An excellent summary!

 

 

 

What about the trio from UNIT,  Brigadier Lethbridge-Stewart, Captain Mike Yates and Sergeant Benton?  Or didn't they travel with the Doctor?

 

The UNIT team weren't technically companions but they were pretty close.  But even during that time, the Doctor had a female companion who was his main companion.

 

Jamie was the Second Doctor's main companion and was with him in every serial except one but there was always a female companion.  Though in the beginning of the Troughton years, there were two male companions and one female.

 

The Fourth Doctor and Adric did share one serial together, as did The First Doctor and Steven.

 

A male companion with the Doctor would probably be a good change of pace but I doubt we'll see that.