S29.E03: Actions vs. Accusations

[Maverick]

Wow...this season has prompted more bigotry discussion that Survivor: Race Wars.

[FineWashables]

Thank you, Green, for clarifying my post -- I didn't catch that the stuff in parens referred back to the 1999 article.

[Rick Kitchen]

 

I agree, which is why I don't like Josh anymore for calling all Southerners "hicks."

 

When did he do that?  He called Keith a hick, not all Southerners.

[iMonrey]

 

I'm no fan of Rocker, but I do think it is wrong that he got voted out almost entirely for something he said 15 years ago.

 

That's just it - I don't think he did get voted out because of anything he said 15 years ago. I think he got voted out because a.) Josh and Alec realized he'd gone behind their backs WRT Val, making him an untrustworthy alliance partner, and b.) because he revealed he had the HII, which also made him a target, and c.) because the two girls wanted anyone to go but them. I think if the plan to vote Dale out was real, they would have gone for that. But Josh blabbed to Baylor that what John told her and Jaclyn was a ruse and he was really planning to vote out Baylor.

 

Also, note that John's plan was for him, Josh, Dale and Alec to vote out Baylor. He did not include Wes in that plan, and in fact Wes was the one to bring up the idea of voting out John to Josh, not the other way around.

 

I'm sure editing would like us to believe John Rocker's controversial past was a factor in voting him out, because they didn't cast this guy for nothing. But in truth I suspect it had little if anything to do with it.

Edited October 9, 2014 by iMonrey

[peachmangosteen]

I heard it the way you did. When they were still walking off the course and Natalie started yelling at him, he was making that "blah blah" gesture with his hand and then said, "back at you, slut." And I also heard "you look like one" after the "if you were a man" comment.

I'm glad someone else heard it. I went back to watch again and I still hear 'slut.' He also definitely says, "You look like a man," after the 'knock your teeth out' comment.

 

I'm really disliking Dale as well. I can't put my finger on exactly why, but there's something off about him. Didn't he and Kelley (his invisible daughter whose name I had to look up) say that there was a three-year period where they didn't speak to each other? I would say let's hear more about that, but I don't actually care about either one of them that much.

 

I had forgotten about hearing they didn't speak for so long. Even though I don't like Dale and have no feelings for Kelley, I'd like to hear more about that actually. Maybe now that John's gone we can hear more from others. Or maybe they can spend 1/5 of the the time they do on Josh and Jeremy on Kelley.

 

I'm trying to understand how any of what he said 15 years ago or what he is saying today in his blog is at all relevant to the game.  He was definitely an ass back then, he may or may not still be an ass today.  But I have a hard time understanding exactly why it seems so important that they "realize" what he is saying then or in his blog.  It is outside the context of the game.

 

For some people it would be hard to play this game with and/or ultimately have to watch someone win that has said what John said. And that's perfectly valid. There's no right or wrong way to decide who to keep/boot in this game.

 

OF COURSE voting off the strongest person on the team was a bad move.  This isn't Brains/Beauty/Brawn or men vs.women, where the physical challenges are dialed back to make things more equitable.  They ousted the guy who made himself a human ladder and boosted people up that obstacle wall like they were puppies.  Did they think they were improving their chances of winning the next challenge?

And yet they still lost that challenge. Unless there's a challenge that involves nothing but lifting weights or carrying your teammates around, I don't know if John is really that big of an asset. At the very least, they didn't really hurt their chances by booting him, even if they didn't improve them.

 

ETA: I forgot to say I am with those who think there must have been more to the John vs the Blue tribe fight. What he was actually shown saying was pretty awful, but I don't know if I believe it'd inspire the THs that we got from Josh and Baylor.

Edited October 10, 2014 by peachmangosteen

[cooksdelight]

All I could think of was that Probst must have gone back to his hotel room after TC and punched something, put a hole in the wall, or cried.... or all three, because his Golden Boy of Controversy he recruited went out so early. I'm going to watch to see if he comes down hard on whoever he blames for it. Because that's just how he rolls. :)

[peachmangosteen]

The fact that I know it really pissed Probst off that John got voted out is the #1 reason why I was glad he was voted out.

[lunastartron]

How?  If the team was comprised of two gay guys I assume they would be gay by definition.  Did they refer to them as "the deviant gays" or the "going to hell cause they are gays" team?  I don't think so.  It was just a handle like "the jocks" or "the frats" or any other shortcut handle.  Plenty of Amazing Race teams have referred to teams of gays as gays starting with the lawyers talking about Team Guido in season 1.

 

The twins got referred to as "the twins" too.  Race teams over the years called other race teams by these handles as often as by their names..  That wasn't bigoted by them either.  If there is no hatred involved then it can't be bigoted in my book.  I don't see a bigoted bone in "the twins" (either one) and certainly no hatred to any group of people other than bigots.

 

Now if the Beekmans were ashamed of being gay or were still in the closet then that could be a problem.  But they obviously weren't.

 

Both TAR and Survivor cast a certain quota of "types" on their shows.  One type since day one has been gays.  Which is to both shows credit.  The Rich/Rudy storyline from the original Survivor probably had more effect on straight American attitudes then most news stories and protests back in the day.  And from day one on both shows gays (and gay teams on TAR) were referred to as same.  No bigotry in that.

 

I didn't follow The Amazing Race with particular interest until a couple of years ago, but, fortunately, in that time I've never heard teams shorthanded by race or other similar demographic characteristics. The Globetrotters were referred to by their occupation, not as "the blacks," as were the cowboys, the flight attendants, etc. Otherwise the contestants were identified by their relationship to each other within their respective pairs- the newlyweds, etc, of which "twins" is a variant. Some duos were simply called by their names- Ryan and Krista, Margie and Luke. Per this formula, the Beekmans would have been "the goat farmers" or some other designation. Not "the evil gays."

 

When you appoint yourself as a spokesman for social justice in a capacity that involves condemnation of others based on zero direct experience, you better be ready to answer for past actions that don't align with your sanctimony. I don't believe Nadiya and Natalie did anything that constituted rabid homophobia, but that doesn't mean their words and behavior haven't been completely unproblematic and both relied on and perpetuated tiresome stereotypes. From zeroing in on sexual orientation as the defining characteristic of their competitors to Nadiya classifying Josh as a "girl" and breaking out the limp wrist and upturned pinky to explain that presumption, they have unabashedly and repeatedly embraced prejudices. They might not have harbored malicious intent, but casual bigotry is perhaps even more corrosive than its more zealous variants because it is more insidious.

 

Stumbling ass-backwards into a perspective that is correct does not necessarily legitimize the manner in which one got there. Statistically, out of all the white neighborhood watchmen who call the police to report the suspicious black men out on the street, I'm sure more than one has been right about the progress of a crime. Doesn't automatically validate the reasoning the caller picked up the phone. Likewise, when groups affiliated with Atwater ran the Willie Horton ads against Dukakis, they were correct that Horton was a violent criminal who committed multiple murders and rapes. Doesn't mean the ad didn't leverage the "scary black man" mythology.

 

I'm not here for the argument that it's unfair to judge John based upon the SI article because it was published 15 years ago. He made his comments to a journalist when he was an adult. He introduced his views into the public discourse and he has to deal with the opprobrium. He also appears to revel in espousing prejudiced screeds as his rants have continued into the present day. However, I don't think it's helpful to reduce the personalities on these shows to good or bad - just because Nadiya and Natalie are opinionated minority women doesn't mean they don't say inane and offensive stuff about LGBT men or have a good handle on concepts of heteronormativity and sexual identity.

 

Likewise, Rocker clearly holds racist, xenophobic, and similarly prejudiced views. People, even those affiliated with objectionable ideas, are not just one thing. As was demonstrated by the footage, John is not a mouth-foaming bigot propelled by racial animus. He very much seems to be a person who, like more Americans than most would imagine imo, harbors prejudice toward communities in the aggregate and has no problem interacting with diversity on an individual level. Because he's not George Wallace bellowing in the schoolhouse door, I wonder if a lot of viewers don't understand why he's being called a racist.

 

 

 

I heard it the way you did. When they were still walking off the course and Natalie started yelling at him, he was making that "blah blah" gesture with his hand and then said, "back at you, slut." And I also heard "you look like one" after the "if you were a man" comment. This is really the first time I've ever enjoyed watching Natalie, but it's partly because every time the camera cut back to her, all I could see was

 

 

As someone noted upthread, it seems that a lot was edited out of the argument. At one point, Probst asks Julie why her tribe as a group has so much animosity towards John and then everyone starts chattering about "John's a poor sport," "John's a trash talker." So it clearly wasn't just Natalie vs. John, although I don't doubt that she was the primary mouth from their tribe. Similarly, Josh in a talking head said he was appalled by what John said during the fight and Baylor said that she was frightened by it -- they could have been reacting to "slut" and "you look like a man," but rude as those things are, I wouldn't call them horrifying or frightening. So I suspect that what we didn't see was much worse than what they showed us. I wish they'd put the whole thing up as a secret scene.

 

I'm really disliking Dale as well. I can't put my finger on exactly why, but there's something off about him. Didn't he and Kelley (his invisible daughter whose name I had to look up) say that there was a three-year period where they didn't speak to each other? I would say let's hear more about that, but I don't actually care about either one of them that much.

 

More superficially, Wes's head is shaped like an anvil.

 

I don't see why it's not just as likely that Josh and Baylor's characterization of John's remarks as "horrifying" and "frightening" didn't just amount to them being drama queens. CBS certainly has a history of editing out relevant transgressions from their reality shows (Big Brother 15), but their reality show contestants also have a propensity to be unreliable narrators. If you depended on contestant confessionals for an idea of what actually happened during that Kafkaesque season of BB, for instance, you would have heard that Candice and Elissa - the only two cast members to vocally oppose the rampant bigotry of the house - were aloof, hateful instigators and generally terrible people. I'd say it's probably even odds that John said anything beyond what was broadcast.

[seacliffsal]

I agree with others that John was voted out primarily due to his seeming to have an alliance with Jeremy on the opposing tribe and that Josh and others felt they couldn't trust him.  However, I hate the idea that Natalie will think he was voted out due to her actions.  I think that she may feel encouraged to continue to call out others and insist that they be voted out.  It may feel like a long season if that is the case.

[BC Mama]

I still can't stand Jeremy.  Sour grapes, party of one.  As soon as he realized that the million dollars was down to just him, he again exhibited the caged beast of aggression and rage.  He's gonna crack at some point, and it's gonna be nasty.

 

If he was a smarter player, he'd realize that Val being voted out increases his chances of lasting in the game. He needs all the help he can get after John outed their alliance. 

[meep.meep]

 

Earth to Natalie and all of those self-righteous contestants.  There have been plenty of contestants on Survivor.  I absolutely guarantee that some of these past contestants have been, in fact, racist and/or homophobic.  Did they get called out on this on national TV?  Did they get voted out for these beliefs of theirs?  No.  Because if they had these feelings, they didn't bring them into the game.

Some of them did get called out on national TV.  Some of them did get voted out.  But many of them got brought along to the end game as the goat who no one would vote for because of their views.  Josh, in one of his many THs, said that he had changed his mind about keeping John as his goat, because of the sketchy way he was dealing with alliances.

[Turtle]

I am sure that there are parts of the country who would disagree that New York Gay man is in any way a positive. My point, though, is that Josh was discussing how the general expectation is that two people who fit a very specific stereotype are not expected to get along because they are seen as being so different and yet they were out there eating snails and enjoying each others company.

 

 

That's exactly how I took it.  And I thought Keith was doing the same thing, noting that, based on stereotypes and expectations, people would not expect them to get along.  And I think his comment about spooning and the weird laughter were indicators of his own surprise at and lack of experience with the situation.  Yes, he felt the need to point out that he is not gay, but he was really good-natured about it; I saw that segment as coming more out of nervousness (cameras, talking about gay people, whatever questions the cameraman was asking him) than anything else.

 

Both Keith and Josh made some verbal gaffes when talking about each other, but I think each in his own way was trying to be open-minded about the other.

 

 

Or, what Gummo said.  :-)

 

I don't feel bad for Rocker at all.  He, and everyone involved with this show, had to know that at some point his racial/ homophobic/ xenophobic statements were going to come out and it was going to cause some drama.  It happened earlier than they expected, I think, but it can't have been a surprise.  Plus, he's an asshole.  I don't like the twins at all, but I was fine with her screaming at him.  She got what she wanted out of it, after all. 

 

surely they could have found something that Dale or Jacqueline or Kelly or Reed said that was somewhat intelligent.

 

 

You have more confidence in these contestants than I do.

[mojoween]

Putting aside what Jon was or is, I imagine it's probably a relief for the orange tribe to lose a drain on their resources. I'm sure someone else will be able to figure out the fishing equipment and they won't have to worry about feeding his bulk.

I saw a tidbit from the Survivor Live he did with Malcolm that he lost weight in the time he was out there (I can't remember if it was 10 or 19 pounds).

I mean, I forgot every time how huge he was unless he was next to someone. When Jeff snuffed John's torch, they couldn't even get John's whole head in the frame because they had to block for Jeff. It was like Jeff was standing in a hole.

[allthatglitters]

After reading the excerpts from even what he has said just a few months ago, I am baffled why Survivor would even consider John Rocker. Its one thing to put on a Russel Hanz who no one even knew before that, but to put someone in your show that has a proven racist, bigoted, sexist attitude? And it is print for anyone to see? My gawd, imagine if he had somehow won!  Shame on Mark Burnett and Jeff Probst.

 

Is there anyone likeable cast on this show?

Edited October 10, 2014 by allthatglitters

[Nearly Dead Ed]

Has anyone brought up another rationale, which is a common one in Survivor, for dumping Rocker?

He%u2019s famous so probably also wealthy, therefore he can%u2019t possibly be allowed to win.

[Pollock]

After reading the excerpts from even what he has said just a few months ago, I am baffled why Survivor would even consider John Rocker. Its one thing to put on a Russel Hanz who no one even knew before that, but to put someone in your show that has a proven racist, bigoted, sexist attitude? And it is print for anyone to see? My gawd, imagine if he had somehow won!  Shame on Mark Burnett and Jeff Probst.

I'm resentful of production for allowing such a douchebag to have a plateform just for publicity. Because that's what it is : a plateform for him to be talked about when he should be forgotten and left crawling in the river of mud him and his alikes live.  

 

I was fuming and it threw me out of the season and really couldn't focus on the game, I was so pissed off each time he was on screen.

So, for whatever reason his team chose to send him home, game or personal, today I'm happy. I don't care about the gameplay, I don't care if Nathalie is a shrew, I just don't. He's out. He shouldn't have been in so :

- Thank you hysterical twinnie for telling the truth, even if the method sucked. He deserves to be shamed and called out. His true self showed once again.

- Thank you Team for giving me the opportunity to watch Survivor and hate people because they are poor and lazy players, not because they are racists and homophobes. Now I can bother to learn your names and the name of the teams. 

 

The only thing I'm still furious about is that you just have to know that even if during the Reunion show he should have the exact 20 seconds Jeff's devoting for pre-merged eliminations, it will be this Asshole's show all over again and will have more screen time than any other, winner included. So as soon as winner's announced, I will be out. Fucking Probst. 

Edited October 10, 2014 by Pollock

[GaT]

After reading the excerpts from even what he has said just a few months ago, I am baffled why Survivor would even consider John Rocker. Its one thing to put on a Russel Hanz who no one even knew before that, but to put someone in your show that has a proven racist, bigoted, sexist attitude? And it is print for anyone to see? My gawd, imagine if he had somehow won!  Shame on Mark Burnett and Jeff Probst.

 

 

But they brought Russell Hantz back 2 more times after that, and they knew what he was like by then. They want people like that on the show, it gets people talking & watching the show.

 

Edited for clarity

Edited October 10, 2014 by GaT

[NutMeg]

Once again we see that tribes often have no idea of the dynamics in place in the other tribe. Jeremy probably never considered that the real power so far in Orange is Josh, or that it could be Dale, or Baylor, or the other invisible girl. I think seeing himself as in charge of his tribe (which still remains to be proven), he just assume that on the other tribe it must also be a big, buff guy who's in charge.

 

I reminds me of the time when JT was so sure Russell was dead man walking in his tribe because all the big, buff dudes had been voted off. JT was so afraid of Parvati and her potential coven that he never for a minute assume that Russell might have a completely different view.

 

Maybe Natalie will find an idol and secretly pass it to Josh with a sweet note, so that he can save himself once all the girls have been voted off... :-) 

[SVNBob]

 

Josh is getting a lot of airtime because a) Coyopa are losing consistently, and therefore the greater narrative and strategy concerns are on his tribe, and b) the rest of his tribe are barely doing anything, with the exception perhaps of Baylor. They are not a particularly bright or charismatic bunch, and Josh is the one that communicates best. Doesn't mean he wins - this isn't necessarily a winners edit. He's just the go-to speaker because he is playing with relative awareness, and is interesting, articulate and can communicate in soundbites. The rest (again, with the exception of Baylor) not so much.

I agree with this.  Last season, Spencer had most of the Brains' confessionals since he had the most animated personality of them all, and he didn't win, either.

 

Exactly.

At the tribal stage(s) of the game, at least one person on each tribe gets what I call the Narrator edit.  It can look very similar to, and thus be mistaken for, the Winner edit.  And they are often one and the same, but not always.  Indeed, last season Spencer was a Narrator, as was Tony (which was a case of Narrator = Winner).  In the first BvW season, Vytas (Aras's brother) also got a Narrator edit, as did Tyson (another winning Narrator).  However, Hantz, the man that can't win Survivor, was the Narrator both his first two attempts; against Shambo in Samoa, and JT and Rupert in HvV. 

Boston Rob is a quintessential Narrator. He'd gotten a version of that edit in all 4 of his games.  It's part of why he was on the first All Star season.

 

Right now, the two primary Narrators are Josh and Jeremy.  Rocker had a secondary Narrator edit going, and Keith is the most likely secondary on Blue.

[KimberStormer]

John Rocker is an ass but to me he had a reasonable Survivor mind, as I said before.  Assuming he's really never seen the show, or only seen Cagayan.  The thing with apologizing to Jeremy, before he even told his tribe mates about his promise, was unorthodox but interesting.  But also, I guess, why he ended up gone.

 

Josh is getting focus because he's kind of running the show, but frankly I think he's overplaying.  Not every vote has to be some new plan, Josh.

 

I cannot for the life of me understand the hatred some people feel for Baylor.  She's playing, at least.  Maybe she couldn't convince the boys, but she was scrambling as she should.  And of course she's going to grab a life preserver thrown by Josh, no matter how much trust she has in him.  She's gotten a little bit of editing attention, and it seems to have weirdly brought some hate at her for playing regular, average Survivor.  To me it's like Natalie yelling at her that they're voting out the women--it's not like Baylor doesn't know that, it's just she can't really do anything about it.  She already tried to get on the other side of those numbers.  She's scrambling.  She's doing her best.

 

Weird, weird focus on Dale during the challenge.  Dude was sitting out.  I do not care about him yelling stuff.  But there was so much of him.  It makes me suspect he's a bigger deal this season than it appears.  I can't think of any reason why else for that.

 

I agree the casting of this season seems to be a bit of a miss.  I can't stand this Blood vs Water glurge.  I want a Parvati, or at least a Malcolm :(  But I'm willing to wait and see a bit longer.

[Turtle]

NutMeg, great points about the perception of power, especially between tribes.  Folks on one tribe really don't have any idea about the dynamics on the other tribe.  Side note: are you related to the poster NutmegsMom?  

[Nashville]

Josh is getting focus because he's kind of running the show, but frankly I think he's overplaying.  Not every vote has to be some new plan, Josh.

 

ITA. Josh is playing WAY too hard WAY too early. Wonder who will replace him as Narrator when he's gone? :)

I cannot for the life of me understand the hatred some people feel for Baylor.  She's playing, at least.  Maybe she couldn't convince the boys, but she was scrambling as she should.  And of course she's going to grab a life preserver thrown by Josh, no matter how much trust she has in him.  She's gotten a little bit of editing attention, and it seems to have weirdly brought some hate at her for playing regular, average Survivor.  To me it's like Natalie yelling at her that they're voting out the women--it's not like Baylor doesn't know that, it's just she can't really do anything about it.  She already tried to get on the other side of those numbers.  She's scrambling.  She's doing her best.

 

I think some folks are upset over her supposedly killing a fledgling "women's alliance" before it even had a chance to get out of the nest. Honestly, though - would ANYBODY choose to be in an alliance with Val? Or Nadiya? I sure as hell wouldn't, and it has nothing to do with their gender.

[NutMeg]

Thanks Turtle. And no, no relation :-)

 

I cannot for the life of me understand the hatred some people feel for Baylor.

 

For me, it's a side effect of not liking the mother-daughter dynamic in the BvW format. I think it automatically penalizes the mom and doesn't cast a very positive light on the daughter. Last week challenge was a good example of that. Same dynamic with Laura/Ciera last time we had this format.

[cooksdelight]

I mean, I forgot every time how huge he was unless he was next to someone. When Jeff snuffed John's torch, they couldn't even get John's whole head in the frame because they had to block for Jeff. It was like Jeff was standing in a hole.

Probst is a little man. About 5' 7", maybe.

[Wings]

Probst is 5' 10" and Rocker is 6' 4"

 

Thank you Natalie for your big mouth and personality!   She is over the top and contributing to my viewing pleasure. :>) 

 

I like this season, so far, and it is refreshing that there are no spoilers.  I have to read them if they exist.  I think Josh may rise to be the one to watch.  We have seen so little of the blue team so it is too early to call who will be the stand out strategist.  

 

John's failure to understand the game brought me back to season 1, my favorite.  I started watching it again last night. 

 

Good bye John and please no more famous athletes!    

 

Baylor being on the bottom of the heap is still a mystery.  I hope an interviewer will ask someone why.  

[sharkfina]

i hate you twinnie.

 

and stupid stupid orange tribe. you've given the other tribe what they wanted. you could have at least waited a week. stupid stupid.

[cooksdelight]

I like this season, so far, and it is refreshing that there are no spoilers. I have to read them if they exist.

wings707, there's an interesting TV Guide interview with John Rocker that came out, which you can Google to find online. He talks about the twins. And he gives a whole lot of insight into the argument with Natalie, and what we didn't see and hear. Apparently, she's a bigger trash talker than he is.

[kikaha]

My reactions to this episode:

 

We saw mob rule in action.  Jeremy charged Rocker with racism, and the rest of his tribe immediately leaped on the bandwagon.  No talking with John.  No asking for his side of the story.  Condemn him, urge the other tribe to boot him, without hearing a word in his defense.   

 

Jeremy was wrong about a key fact.  John DID try to protect Val.  But Val lied to John.  She gave him false information about a nonexistent idol.  I think Val's own actions sealed her fate in the tribe.  But Jeremy did not want to hear that.  He wanted to blame it on someone else.   

 

John dug his own grave.  All he had to do was keep his mouth shut, while the other tribe was taunting him.  His own tribe would have booted Baylor, not him.  He has some huge shortcomings in Survivor. 

 

Josh is sneaky, and not in a positive way. 

 

I don't ever recall members from a tribe lobbying the other tribe on who to boot.  Tied in with the madness of mobs, pretty scary reflection on how the world can work. 

[ghoulina]

Jeremy was wrong about a key fact.  John DID try to protect Val.  But Val lied to John.  She gave him false information about a nonexistent idol.  I think Val's own actions sealed her fate in the tribe.  But Jeremy did not want to hear that.  He wanted to blame it on someone else.

 

I just don't get why he thought ONE person could keep his wife safe. Didn't he realize the entire team had to be on board? Did he think Rocker was running the entire show? I just think his reaction was so ridiculous and short sighted. 

[Sarahendipity]

For all the comments claiming that the blue tribe was only going by what Jeremy remembered, don't forget they had someone that would know a whole lot about Rocker: Julie.

[ProfCrash]

Julie walked away from the group and was not there to challenge anything that Jeremy said. Also, I don't think they were dating when John made the comments he did. Finally, Julie might look bad if she tried to defend him in any way. Seriously, would you try and discuss the semantics and John's version of events with Jeremy and Natalie?

[truthaboutluv]

To me it's like Natalie yelling at her that they're voting out the women--it's not like Baylor doesn't know that, it's just she can't really do anything about it.  She already tried to get on the other side of those numbers.

 

 

Well to be fair one can argue that she could have done something about it before she chose to align with the guys and vote Nadiya out. Now in fairness, Josh was the key there and if they didn't have him, the guys would still have enough votes to get Nadiya out but with Josh's random vote for Baylor herself, had she stuck with the girls they would have had a tie and re-vote and who knows where Josh would have voted at that point.

 

So she did have an option with the girls but that being said it is interesting that while she was the one who flipped to vote with the guys, she's the one who's been most targeted since. It really makes me wonder if there was a lot more to Josh's initial vote for her and what he said to the other guys about that vote, that the editors are not showing. 

 

As for Josh playing so hard, I don't think he's that bad just yet. His vote for Baylor in the first tribal was a little random but it didn't affect the majority and they still got rid of Nadiya so I doubt the other tribemates cared too much. His voting for Val to ensure a tie with her and Baylor helped prove that Val did not have an immunity idol and with the re-vote going all to Val, I do not believe for one minute that hadn't been discussed and planned with the guys. That is, what to do in the event Val doesn't have an idol. So with that vote, he was still playing with his majority.

 

And with the John vote, Wes seemed on the same wavelength with him particularly with the fact that Rocker all but admitted he made some side deal with Jeremy and then admitted he had an idol. His problem may come if someone wises up to his being too much of a mastermind and orchestrates his boot but again, with how much editing does not show, there's no telling how close Josh is with everyone else in the tribe individually. 

 

We saw mob rule in action.  Jeremy charged Rocker with racism, and the rest of his tribe immediately leaped on the bandwagon.  No talking with John.  No asking for his side of the story.  Condemn him, urge the other tribe to boot him, without hearing a word in his defense.

 

 

I really don't think that's why John was eliminated because we saw Dale defend him and Alec telling him to just ignore Natalie when she was going at him after the IC. I think the real reasoning behind John's ouster was Josh deciding he couldn't really trust him, first because he found out about John's making a deal with Jeremy to protect Val and then his later admitting to having an idol and all but threatening them against voting him.

 

Josh engineered his boot because of those things and it was easy to get the two women who were just happy to vote anyone but them and Wes, who also didn't seem to trust Rocker because of the idol and deal with Jeremy. And still, it looked like Alec needed some convincing because he understandably didn't think voting out their strongest player was wise. So I really don't think that vote had anything really to do with Natalie's rantings even though I'm sure the show would like to make it seem that way.

Edited October 10, 2014 by truthaboutluv

[cooksdelight]

It really makes me wonder if there was a lot more to Josh's initial vote for her and what he said to the other guys about that vote, that the editors are not showing.

I agree. I'm thinking there's more going on behind the scenes. Baylor may be irritating the hell out of people, but so far she's getting the good edit.

[Way Wes Jr]

Congratulations to the editors.  As I was watching Tribal Council, I was getting very irritated with Jaclyn, as I was convinced she was persuading John to play his Idol.  Thanks to posters above for pointing out that she was - from John’s point of view - confirming the smokescreen he had set up regarding Dale.  (And if his looks of disbelief were real time, it would be that he couldn’t believe she was so stupid as to give a hint to Dale that he was in trouble.)  Well played, well played.

 

Hunahpu (Blue Tribe)

 

1. Jeremy (1)  Now that Keith has an even more detailed HII clue, perhaps we’ll see you looking for and finding the idol over by your tribes water supply.  You also now have the first “million dollar quote,” (that I can recall,) of the season.  These rankings are currently for making it to the merge, but you’re also in the running for Narrator/Winner edit now.

 

2. Kelley (2)
3. Reed (4)
4. Natalie (3)  With Coyopa going to tribal, again, we still aren’t getting much on Hunahpu’s tribal dynamics.  Natalie drops a spot for the trash talking, and for literally poking Drew with a stick.  If her tribe finds her abrasive, she becomes expendable.

 

5. Jon (6) Invisible Man
6. Missy (7) Invisible Woman

 

7. Drew (5)  You think you’re hot stuff, and yet you’re the recipient of this year’s “lazy person” edit.  This is really bad for a “young, strong dude.”  I think this is bad for you, but with the Ulonging of the other tribe, I’m just throwing darts here.

 

8. Keith (8)
9. Julie (9) Too little info to move these folk up: Keith has been to exile twice - and since I think Jeremy’s already gone Idol hunting, the lack of tribal time has got to be a negative; and Julie wandered off on her own to sulk just because John was yelled at; imagine what she’ll do when she sees he’s been booted...

 

Coyopa (Orange tribe)

 

1. Wes (4)  Not only does he have a great name, I’m beginning to think he’s brighter than his edit has been leading me to believe.  With three other players on his tribe being more charismatic, giving them Narrator edits (John, Josh, and Baylor,) he’s been fairly invisible; but in the strategy related scenes he has been in, he’s actually coming across as a shepherd, not a sheep.

 

2. Alec (2) On the other hand, I’m still thinking you’re as dim as I’ve perceived.  Until (if,) a tribe swap occurs, you’re too valuable for challenges to be booted before the merge - especially now that John is gone.

 

3. Baylor (3) I’d drop her, but I think Josh’s negatives have increased, so she stays.
4. Josh (5) But they haven’t dropped enough to move the others up.  As noted by posters above Josh is playing hard, and I have to think that if John was viewed as “too sketchy,” that some have that has to move on to Josh considering: in episode one he switched his vote to Baylor without telling his alliance, in episode two he switched his vote to Val (he was supposed to be a Baylor vote in the 3-3 split plan,) and in this, the third episode, he was involved in the blindside of an alliance-mate.  Death of a thousand cuts, perhaps?

 

5. Jaclyn (7) Wasn’t on the wrong side of a 5-2 vote.
6. Dale (6) Was on the wrong side of the 5-2 vote.

 

BYE  John (1)  John made some “never really watched the show,” mistakes that managed to negate the advantages he had.  (Idol, strong for challenges, and producer’s wet dream.)  He admitted to having tried saving Val, (by giving her information,) making him look untrustworthy, and he admitted to having the HII, which to a smart player (see my comment on Wes, above,) made him a viable target.  I do have to commend him for a classy exit.

[Alapaki]

Jeremy was wrong about a key fact.  John DID try to protect Val.  But Val lied to John.  She gave him false information about a nonexistent idol.  I think Val's own actions sealed her fate in the tribe.  But Jeremy did not want to hear that.  He wanted to blame it on someone else.

 

 

Ultimately I think what John did that killed Val was telling Wes about Val's "Idols".  However, in a twisted way, I think that John may have thought he was protecting Val by doing that.

 

It seems that going into and coming out of TC1 that Tribe was clearly split along gender lines.  Going into TC2 the split favored the men 4-3, so there were 3 potential female "targets" for elimination.  The guys no longer needed Baylor's vote, but her flip at TC1 to vote out Nadiya may have at least bumped her to the back of the line of targets.  

 

So it was a question of Jacquelyn or Val.  Maybe John thought that by telling Wes about Val's "Idols", the target would go off of her and onto Jackie.  But, never having seen the show before, John had no clue about the concept of vote-splitting to flush HIIs.  (there were certainly other arguments in favor of booting Jackie over Val, but those would've taken Thought, something with which I believe John has only a passing acquaintance).

 

When Wes brought up that idea John did the only thing he could, which was to try to make sure Val played "one" of her "Idols" and thus save herself.  

 

And from the footage we saw this week, it seems like Val still would've been safe on a 5-3 vote except for Josh who was apparently supposed to vote for Jackie but decided to flip. (although I still don't know which way everyone else was supposed to vote).

 

Ultimately, though, by tipping his hand about "trying to protect Val" and about having a HII this week, John basically eliminated himself.  So, regardless of how bad he sucks as a person, he really sucks as a Survivor.

[cooksdelight]

Ultimately I think what John did that killed Val was telling Wes about Val's "Idols"

She was telling people, too, I was told. She thought she'd be safe for a couple of weeks or more if people thought she held the idols and no one would be looking for them. John didn't understand that there's only one idol at a time. Again, his never watching the show killed him.

[Guest]

The tv guide interview was interesting.  I think less of him now, actually.  He claimed he was the best athlete on his team, that no celebrity would ever get far in Survivor (I would say see Lisa Whelchel), that he was glad to get voted off because he wanted food and alcohol, that he was nice and helpful and is too honest for Survivor, and "women can be catty" and other vaguely misogynist statements.  Eh, good riddance.  

 

I wonder why if Natalie is so full of cuss-words and bird-flipping like he claims, she keeps getting invited back onto reality tv?  You'd think that would be something they'd not want to bother editing around all the time and would discourage.  

[green]

wings707, there's an interesting TV Guide interview with John Rocker that came out, which you can Google to find online. He talks about the twins. And he gives a whole lot of insight into the argument with Natalie, and what we didn't see and hear. Apparently, she's a bigger trash talker than he is.

 

That's according to Rocker spinning it.  Period.  What do you expect him to say?  Yeah I'm a jerk.  He didn't back in 1999.  Still not doing it today.

 

I don't believe this bigot one tiny bit.  Guy likes to "charm" people when not endless losing it and sticking his foot in his big mouth every other day.  I saw his blazing scary eyes in that shouting match.  Guy is really bad news.

 

He wants people to believe his side and think better of him.  No surprise.  Been his m.o. from the very beginning back in 1999.  But he will show his real stripes in the end.  He always does.  Still blogging the hate to this very day and I'm suppose to take his word for anything?  Hah, no way no how.

 

Also poor old John didn't know there were not tons of idols cause he didn't ever watch the show?!?!  The absolute nerve to use that as an excuse.  And the total combination of ignorance and arrogance implied that he couldn't be bothered to take at least a few days to Netflix some Survivor seasons.  Unacceptable.  If he hadn't gone over hitter's charts prior to a game when he played for the Braves he would have been booted from baseball before he was booted from baseball for being a bigoted jackass.

 

Bigots don't sit around all day telling everyone under the sun all their hates.  They are often pleasant and nice people around people they like.  Bigots seem like normal people until the monster inside them comes out because of some circumstance or incident.

Edited October 10, 2014 by green

[panthergirl13]

And right out of today's headlines we have someone (I think it was Keith?) claiming he'd have "whooped" the lazy non-weaver were it his son "because we still spank/whoop in The South." Yes, we are aware of that thanks. Ya watch any football??

Agreed, and it was just as disgusting as the comments from Rocker towards Natalie. I'm so glad Rocker is gone, and I wish they'd go after this abusive and ignorant jerk next.

[Whimsy]

Hi. As a reminder, there are threads for each player. If your posts is solely about only 1 person, then please take your comments to that specific thread.

Also, let's agree to disagree when it comes to John Rocker and please move on to other topics. This is turning into an argument and I don't want to have to start handing out warnings.

Thanks and happy posting!

[alegtostandon]

I had never heard of "John" or "Jon" before this game...I really did not care if he stayed or was voted off. 

 

I have seen 'Twinsies' before though, 3 times now, which, IMO, is 3 times too many.  I could not stand them on TAR and almost decided not to watch this season of Survivor when I heard their irritating screaming on a commercial for this season.  I was relieved when they were the 1st team to be eliminated from TAR the last time they were on.

 

I am horrible with names, but I don't feel that Jon did anything wrong by assuring Val's husband that he would watch out for her.  He was just putting a husband's mind at rest, a husband who did not seem to have any concern about a 'bigot' watching over his wife.  It was only when she was eliminated, due to her own actions, nothing that John did to cause it, that he felt the need to make John's past history known to his team.  "Twinsie', decided it was up to her to make sure John's team knew of his past and demand that he be voted off due to lack of morals.

 

My first thought was 'how would Twinsie feel if someone from the other team who watched them on TAR and felt very passionate about stealing, decided to scream from across the field that she is a thief & should be voted off for having no morals...that if she was willing to steal from a competitor on TAR, what would she do on Survivor?

[millennium]

When people started talking about the controversy surrounding Rocker, they discussed how he'd shot off his mouth 15 years ago.  No one seemed to realize that it's still ongoing on his blog.  More importantly to this episode, no one seemed aware of the Bleacher Report article in April of 2014 in which Jeff Pearlman, the author of the original article from 1999, details how Rocker's behavior and comments now have gotten even worse.  When Julie said, Oh so they've read the article, this was no doubt what she was referring to.  I was amazed that none of the Survivors asked what article she meant.

 

I don't get why I should care about any of this.   Rocker exhibited no racist or homophobic behavior while on the island.   I don't care what any of the other Survivors do back in their real lives.   He gets the same pass, IMHO.   Way I see it, that kind of baggage becomes relevant only after a Survivor introduces it by either an admission or bad behavior.   Otherwise, I think it's bullshit to crucify Survivors for stuff they have said/done outside the game.

[Nashville]

I think the real reasoning behind John's ouster was Josh deciding he couldn't really trust him, first because he found out about John's making a deal with Jeremy to protect Val and then his later admitting to having an idol and all but threatening them against voting him.

 

Josh engineered his boot because of those things and it was easy to get the two women who were just happy to vote anyone but them and Wes, who also didn't seem to trust Rocker because of the idol and deal with Jeremy. And still, it looked like Alec needed some convincing because he understandably didn't think voting out their strongest player was wise. So I really don't think that vote had anything really to do with Natalie's rantings even though I'm sure the show would like to make it seem that way.

 

ITA  - In reality, Natalie's ranting didn't have any real impact on why Rocker was voted out.  Here's the thing that bothers me the most, though; next time the Tribes face-to-face and she sees Rocker is no more, she's going to think she had an impact.  And then she'll be even more insufferable than she already is - and her current level is pretty damn bad.

 

I don't follow TAR, so I had no preconceptions towards the "Twinnies" - but three weeks of them already has me (a) thanking my lucky stars I'd missed out on them before, and (b) hoping to god Thing 2 gets reunited with Thing 1 ASAP.

[Mocking Bird]

 

Keith also threw the whole South under the bus by saying there were no gays in Louisiana and that everyone "whupped" their kids, not to mention all his uncomfortable "jokes," about sleeping on opposite sides of the fire.

 

 

I am from the South--born in Louisiana and raised in Mississippi--and as far as I'm concerned, Keith is a "hick".   Thanks for perpetuating the stereotype, bud.

 

I can't stand Natalie(?) and as far as John being rough in the IC, she threw both a hip and a leg at both of the opposing team members in that scramble.

 

Sorry to see John voted out if for nothing more than the entertainment factor.  These people are boring.

[Nashville]

I am from the South--born in Louisiana and raised in Mississippi--and as far as I'm concerned, Keith is a "hick".   Thanks for perpetuating the stereotype, bud.

Hate it, but I have to agree with you on that'un.

I was originally thinking "oh well, you have to make some allowances for the older generations" - until I saw his age.

Which, if CBS is correct, makes him one year older than me.

And I don't think like that. Or talk like that, unless a Northerner is pissing me off.

 

I can't stand Natalie(?) and as far as John being rough in the IC, she threw both a hip and a leg at both of the opposing team members in that scramble.

Wasn't John, like, third on the list for body checks in the central part of the competition? Seemed to me like once Julie got slammed, it became a regular thing in each of the following matches. John's actions weren't unique.

 

Sorry to see John voted out if for nothing more than the entertainment factor.  These people are boring.

Well, Rocker was sort of an overwhelming personality.  Maybe some of these folks will blossom a little, since they're no longer under his shadow (figuratively AND literally).

[Turtle]

I wonder why if Natalie is so full of cuss-words and bird-flipping like he claims, she keeps getting invited back onto reality tv?  You'd think that would be something they'd not want to bother editing around all the time and would discourage.​

 

 

I'm beginning to think that Natalie and Nadiya are much savvier about this TV stuff than I thought previously.  Nadiya was on Rob Has a Podcast, and she was dropping F-bombs (and every other cuss word) like nobody's business.  I tend to do the same, so I'm not judging, but I was pretty surprised by it because there's never been hint of it on the Amazing Race (not that I remember anyway).  So, totally speculating here, but they may very well be full of cuss words and bird flipping, but just usually manage it in front of the cameras.  

[cooksdelight]

No, they cuss and bird flip in front of cameras, but it gets edited out. Just like ALL people do on reality shows. We'd all be dumbfounded if we saw what was left on the cutting room floor, trust me. Rudy, season one, was one helluva salty dog. :)

[EC Amber]

Maybe I'm cynical, but I tend to think that for whatever degree you think the editors have manipulated what we see - it's still a fraction of what they really are doing. 

 

That being said, I agree that there was more to the trash talking than what we saw. Squeakiest wheel and her target got the camera time, but it seemed like the body language from most of the blue team were taking issue with Rocker. That being said, i don't think any of that had anything to do with Rocker's blindside. Until Josh caught wind of Rocker having the HII and his ease with side alliances, his position wasn't in jeopardy. No amount of screaming from Twinie #2 and no amount of cajoling from Baylor and Sidekick was changing that.

 

As to the whole scandal - it seems like this is really a matter of "any publicity is good publicity" as far as the producers are concerned. The energy/uproar his presence has caused is really superficial and not game-driven. That disappoints me because I want to invest in the game... if I wanted exposure to bigotry I would attend TeaParty conventions. But what I want is to be entertained, rather mindlessly, for an hour. Rocker's presence simply didn't add to any entertainment value. Here's the twist - not because he's a bigot, but because his bigotry is famous. At the end of the day though, if he was one of the millions of anonymous bigots - I think he still would have been voted out. His game play lacked self-awareness. He simply didn't realize that maybe alliances should be reserved for, you know, actual people in your alliance. He was a dim bulb and it bit him on the ass. 

 

Now that he's gone (and let's hope his shade moves on with him)... I'm really hoping to see some crafty game play start up. Apologies, but someone above mentioned Wes is a little more savvy than first impressions would lead one to believe. I think they are onto something there. Right now he's a tentative black horse. 

 

After looking over the cast... bland, bleh, yuck. I like Wes, but that's mostly gut on brief appearances. Not a huge fan of Keith or Dan. Both of the dads who are here with their kids strike me as being damaged, or at least their relationship with their kid is a little damaged. None of the female seems particularly unique. 

 

I'm looking forward to the merge - that's when things can get very interesting. 

[Guest]

I don't get why I should care about any of this.   Rocker exhibited no racist or homophobic behavior while on the island.   I don't care what any of the other Survivors do back in their real lives.   He gets the same pass, IMHO.   Way I see it, that kind of baggage becomes relevant only after a Survivor introduces it by either an admission or bad behavior.   Otherwise, I think it's bullshit to crucify Survivors for stuff they have said/done outside the game.

He wasn't crucified for 1999.  He did display bad behavior during the game.  All of it that we saw was him calling Natalie a slut and threatening violence so I'm sure there was more, given his team's overall reaction to him and booting him out.  We see a tiny fraction of what happens.  

 

Besides they can boot someone for whatever reason they want, or none at all.  This isn't a court case, it's a game.  People get voted out all the time for being too old, too loud, too nice, too young, too female, too strategic, and all other reasons.  They had a hundred reasons to boot him.  If him being a bigot was their main reason, they probably would've done it sooner because they knew.  

 

I don't think they cared about his bigotry.  I think they voted him out for his being an asshole who didn't know the first thing about the game.  

[millennium]

He wasn't crucified for 1999.  He did display bad behavior during the game.  All of it that we saw was him calling Natalie a slut and threatening violence so I'm sure there was more, given his team's overall reaction to him and booting him out.  We see a tiny fraction of what happens.  

 

Meh.  Natalie got as good as she gave.   She obviously has a problem with Rockers.   She stole the Rockers' money in the Amazing Race (real upstanding).   In Survivor, she ran her big mouth trying to eliminate a Rocker.

 

FWIW, I didn't hear John Rocker call her a slut.  I have googled but have yet to find reports of that word being attributed to him anywhere but in this thread.

 

Natalie was not threatened with violence.   He said "If you were a man I'd knock your teeth out."   Natalie is not a man (although Rocker opined that she looks like one), hence she was in never in danger.  

 

Hardly a gentleman that John Rocker.  But after a heated competition, after the third immunity loss in a row, it's hard to say who might not lose their cool when being catcalled by an obnoxious, loud-mouthed know-nothing like Natalie.

 

When I said crucified, I meant both on the island and in the forums.