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S04.E10: Goodbye

chitowngirl

By chitowngirl
in The Bear

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Irlandesa

Irlandesa

3 hours ago, ichbin said:

I have been a fan from the beginning, but I'm just going to say it...this was not a good season overall.  

I thought it was a marked improvement from last season.  Overall, I feel more satisfied by it simply because the season ended with a decision or a plan.  That plan might get upended last season but it was at least purposeful.  Whereas last season I felt like it was completely treading water.

However, even though I liked the season more overall, and loved watching the three-hander for most of this episode, I do feel like Season 3 had more episodes that I considered excellent. There were some decent episodes this season but nothing like Forks or Napkins or even the episode where Sugar gives birth.

  • Like 8
thuganomics85

thuganomics85

I have to say, I did not expect that ending despite the episode title. 

Carmy really is leaving The Bear?  Does he plan on working in another field or is he just going to try to work on himself, if he is financially able to?  I'm assuming he might want to try again with Claire, but I also wonder if he is going to spend more time with Donna going forward.  Or even be a more hands-on uncle with Sophie.  Of course, this is all assuming he'll be back in some form.  I know Jeremy Allen White has been getting a lot more movie roles lately, so I wonder if this was always in the cards or are they phasing him out because of that.  I guess we'll find out: assuming another season is in the cards.

Not surprised that both Sydney and Richie didn't take it well at first, but it clearly ended up being so much more, judging from how much was hashed out in their scene.  Interesting approach to only have those three (and then Natalie at the end) for the entire episode and no one else.  Great work from Jeremy, Ayo Edebiri, and Ebon Moss-Bachrach.

Found it interesting that Natalie didn't even try and argue once she heard of Carmy's decision and just hugged him.  I wonder if she suspected all along or was just going into supporting sister mode no matter what.

The big question is how will they be able to save the restaurant: especially without Uncle Jimmy's help?  Still think the sandwich franchising aspect will play a part.

Overall, still not as good as the first two seasons, but I thought it was a solid improvement over last season, due to it feeling like stuff was actually happening and it wasn't just all filler.  Even the character-centric ones seemed to serve more of a purpose compared to last season.  And while the debates over it being considered a "comedy" will never die, I did find myself laughing more this go around.  Hope this at least gets picked up again, because I do want to see how The Bear will handle being Carmy-less.  But they better find a way to keep Luca and Chef Terry's squad on board!

  • Like 4
FemmyV

FemmyV

11 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Found it interesting that Natalie didn't even try and argue once she heard of Carmy's decision and just hugged him.

I think she rightly saw that he can't be the kind of manager and person he wants to be - ie, functional - in this particular atmosphere. 

FYI, I found a script for the show's pilot and there is a scene cut from the aired show that's a game-changer. What I wrote above, about Richie's need to make Carmy his bitch, every chance he got? In the pilot script, Carmy actually put him and everyone else in their place by pitching a calculated fit. 

And I can see why they cut it, because if Carmy had been willing to be that asshole from the beginning, the Beef staff would have cut half the shit. 

 

 

Jordan61

Jordan61

12 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Found it interesting that Natalie didn't even try and argue once she heard of Carmy's decision and just hugged him.  I wonder if she suspected all along or was just going into supporting sister mode no matter what.

Back in episode 2, she told him he had found something he loved and was great at, but it was okay if he didn't love it anymore. So I think she knew it was coming.

I liked this season a lot more than last season, but the finale left me flat. I don't know how I feel about a show without Carmy.

  • Like 7
maddie965

maddie965

(edited)

Pretty sure Jeremy Allen White will be part of Season 5, if there is one. Carmy said he would do everything to guarantee the restaurant is a success, so it's not like he's leaving right away. At least I hope not! I do expect him to have less scenes, though. More space for Syd and Ritchie, which will be awesome.

I loved the last episode, because finally all the cards were on the table, all the resentments, frustrations, feelings and misunderstandings from the last three seasons.  And the actors nailed every emotion, every sentence, every look and touch. I cried. A lot.

That said, I think Season 4 had brilliant moments, but some of the same issues as Season 3. For one simple reason: lack of editing. Season 3 and 4 should have been just one season, 10-12 episodes. No repetitions, no long meaningless dialogues, no Fak insanity, no unnecessary shouting. That would have been a fine Season of television. What a wasted opportunity that was.

Edited by maddie965
  • Like 4
aghst

aghst

(edited)
22 hours ago, JD5166 said:

The "comedy" of this show is absolutely exhausting. I watched every episode in hopes it would get better, it just didn't happen for me. Seasons 1&2 were so good, these last have sort of kept my attention but they weren't good (IMO of course!) 

I guess Jeremy Allen White is onto bigger and better things, I hope his career doesn't flame out. 

Families can get messy and that must apply to extended family, people who aren't related but become members, like  Richie and now Syd.

These characters are intense but that means exhausting at times.

The first season became noticed because of the chaos and the fighting.  Seems like the writers want to keep dipping back into that well.  Truth is, people don't change their personalities, their inclinations to get into confrontations, have loud shouting matches.

Not unless they make some sustained effort to change, through  therapy or whatever.

Richie threatens to "end" Carmy for saying that he went to the funeral.  Why is that such an affront?  Yeah he wasn't there for the rest of the family but is that a reason to fight?

I don't know why the initial reaction to Carmy bowing out is to scream at him, as Syd and Richie do.  Well it could be seen as him bailing on them but the clock was almost expired at that point.  They had fair warning that their time could be finite.

Does Carmy cutting himself out of the partnership means the restaurant will survive because there will be more money left over for the remaining partners and for the operating budget?

Usually, partners share in the profits of the business but if the business is just staying above water, there aren't that much profits to share.

Do partners who work at the restaurant not draw a salary in addition to sharing the profits?

So Carmy no longer being a partner isn't necessarily going to improve the financial prospects, especially since Richie is replacing him as a partner as Syd requested.

BTW, Syd repeatedly taking drags of that cigarette wasn't authentic to her character.  People don't smoke a cigarette because of stress.  Have her go in a grab a bottle of that $45 a glass wine or something.

 

 

 

Edited by aghst
  • Like 1
aghst

aghst

22 hours ago, JD5166 said:

 

I guess Jeremy Allen White is onto bigger and better things, I hope his career doesn't flame out. 

Can't imagine he wouldn't still be under contract if the rest of the cast are signed.

He is the lead and featured prominently in the promotion for the show.

The story was that the show runner wanted to do only 4 seasons but the network made him add a season which turned out to be season 3.

If that's the case, they probably made sure all the cast was under contract.

  • Useful 1
susannot

susannot

(edited)

I can't stand the scene of Syd and Carmy yelling at each other.  Carmy never adequately explains why he is leaving the restaurant, so I find this whole plotline very unconvincing.

So I think that this is all about Jeremy Allen White's career ambitions.

And his subsequent confrontation with Richie is equally unconvincing.  "I didn't realize you lost someone too."  Really, bro?  Then you are an asshole.  But I don't think the show wants us to regard Carmy as an asshole, just a tortured misunderstood artist.  Not buying it.

Edited by susannot
  • Like 6
FemmyV

FemmyV

(edited)
20 hours ago, susannot said:

But I don't think the show wants us to regard Carmy as an asshole, just a tortured misunderstood artist.  Not buying it.

IMO Richie's fight for dominance over Carmy, and Carmy's inability to put Richie in his place is the main conflict. Look at how other viewers talk about loving Syd and Richie's relationship, while I walk us down memory lane:

Long before Carmy told Syd, "you are The Bear" ...

 

Syd: You know, there's something broken in you.

Richie: Alright? You're being mean and it's ugly.

You wanna talk about fսck¡n' ugly, Richie? You are a loser. You're a loser. No, Richie. Yeah. You're the fսck¡n' loser who can't do sh¡t... You're a conceited and condescending ribbon of brine... You can't peel fսck¡ng vegetables. You can't fսck¡ng do sh¡t. You waste space here. You are a fսck¡ng loser. And that is why you hate that I'm here, right? Because I see you for the loser that you fսck¡ng are. And everybody knows it. I know it. Harvey knows it. And your daughter probably knows it. Poor fսck¡ng girl. So how about you go to the register and do the one fսck¡ng thing you know how to do?

Yo, why are being such a fսck¡ng b¡tch right now?

I don't know, Richie, why am I?

Oh, you gonna fսck¡n' stab me?

Yeah, maybe I fսck¡ng will.

 

And she did. This is the kind of ego-whomping Richie will respect, but Carmy is too self-aware of how messed up it is, to bring it.
 

 

 

Edited by FemmyV
TattleTeeny

TattleTeeny

(edited)
Quote

People don't smoke a cigarette because of stress. 

Some people* do. It's pretty much how I and a few people I know started smoking in the first place! I don't anymore, but the few "relapses" I've had over the last 3 years were because of stress. That said, I agree; take the wine

*I assume by "people," you meant nonsmokers, as stress is kind of a big reason for actual smokers to smoke (especially for those smokers who aren't addicted to nicotine).  

Edited by TattleTeeny
  • Like 4
Kel Varnsen

Kel Varnsen

On 6/29/2025 at 3:53 PM, aghst said:

Does Carmy cutting himself out of the partnership means the restaurant will survive because there will be more money left over for the remaining partners and for the operating budget?

Usually, partners share in the profits of the business but if the business is just staying above water, there aren't that much profits to share.

Do partners who work at the restaurant not draw a salary in addition to sharing the profits?

So Carmy no longer being a partner isn't necessarily going to improve the financial prospects, especially since Richie is replacing him as a partner as Syd requested.

Yea Ritchie's line about how they will save Carmy's salary didn't make much sense. Like how much was he paying himself. And as for taking a share of the profits, what profits? I think they just breaking even and that's without considering that they still have less than a year to pay back Jimmy his $800,000.

On 6/27/2025 at 11:07 PM, thuganomics85 said:

 Carmy really is leaving The Bear?  Does he plan on working in another field or is he just going to try to work on himself, if he is financially able to? 

I am curious to see if we will get a season of Carmy trying other jobs. Neal Brennan in his last Netflix special had a great bit about how people who are world class good at one thing generally don't have their brain set up to handle other things. It's why Michael Jordan comes across as a psycho in The Last Dance. So would Carmy be able to be good or handle anything else.

  • Like 5
chaifan

chaifan

I thought this season started slow, and the pace was just sooooo different from the prior 3 seasons, with a lot of no or very low dialog scenes.  I wasn't sure if I was going to stick with it.  But I'm glad I did.  And I did something I've never done - I actually binged this show.  I watched it all over 3 days.  (Yes, that's binging for me.)  I loved the last 5 episodes, and this one works well as both a season finale and as a series finale if Season 5 doesn't happen.  

On 6/29/2025 at 9:38 PM, susannot said:

Carmy never adequately explains why he is leaving the restaurant, so I find this whole plotline very unconvincing.

I'll somewhat disagree on this.  You're right in that Carm didn't really articulate a good reason for Syd in that scene.  But the season has been building up to this, that he's lost his passion, he doesn't write in his notebooks, he's just going through the motions, etc.  So I didn't feel that we needed a big on screen explanation coming from Carm's mouth.  

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I think they just breaking even and that's without considering that they still have less than a year to pay back Jimmy his $800,000.

I really don't understand the economics behind the restaurant, which is a bit sad because that was a major plot point throughout most of the show.  I don't understand how they were able to hire the three people from the other restaurant when they were already underwater.  And is Luca working for free?  It seemed so when he first arrived, but I can't imagine him staying there for all that time for free.  None of these guys are cheap.  Yes, they turned the restaurant around, but I still don't understand how they're making enough to afford those extra salaries AND turn a profit by the end.  And how The Beef is going to be able to buy 3 new locations without another cash infusion from Jimmy is beyond me.  

I was a bit sad with the last episode because we didn't get to see Tina or Marcus or the others.  I felt a little cheated.  If it gets a 5th season, I'll forgive them for that.  

I also have no idea what was going on with Marcus and his dad.  I'm glad others are confused, too.

 

  • Like 5
TattleTeeny

TattleTeeny

12 hours ago, chaifan said:

I'll somewhat disagree on this.  You're right in that Carm didn't really articulate a good reason for Syd in that scene.  But the season has been building up to this, that he's lost his passion, he doesn't write in his notebooks, he's just going through the motions, etc.  So I didn't feel that we needed a big on screen explanation coming from Carm's mouth.  

Plus, it's well established that he is not a great communicator at all, much less an articulate one. It would be be strange if he suddenly was able to explain his emotions in a comprehensible way.

  • Like 6
Kel Varnsen

Kel Varnsen

12 hours ago, chaifan said:

really don't understand the economics behind the restaurant, which is a bit sad because that was a major plot point throughout most of the show.  I don't understand how they were able to hire the three people from the other restaurant when they were already underwater.  And is Luca working for free?  It seemed so when he first arrived, but I can't imagine him staying there for all that time for free.  None of these guys are cheap.  Yes, they turned the restaurant around, but I still don't understand how they're making enough to afford those extra salaries AND turn a profit by the end.  And how The Beef is going to be able to buy 3 new locations without another cash infusion from Jimmy is beyond me.  

The show has never been good with the financial aspect. As for the three new hires from Ever, I can almost handwave the two servers, since at one point Ritchie said all the servers quit.  But I am not sure how another new chef coming is something they could afford. Especially because in season 3 when they first opened I think  they said they were still losing money even when they were selling out (I think because of the constant menu changes).

I am also wondering, if Carm and Sugar own the land that the restaurant sits on and Jimmy said the property is worth 2 million, could they not just go to the bank and get a loan with the land as collateral? A bank would probably give better terms than Jimmy's pay me back in 18 months deal.

  • Like 1
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peeayebee

peeayebee

Man, I hated the first part of the argument between Syd and Carm. Hated. And I was saying, “SHUT UP, SYD!” Give him a chance to answer. 
Richie elevated the conversation. The actor is just so good. 
can’t say I understand any of the financial stuff. 
All in all I was disappointed in the finale. I liked the rest of the season. I’m sorry it ended like this. 

  • Like 3
Irlandesa

Irlandesa

10 minutes ago, SnarkAttack said:

To me, it felt like everyone was overacting. The whole season felt that way, actually. Also, the dialogue felt very Succession-like, choppy where no one says a complete sentence. 

Too me, I feel like when it feels like there's a lot of achting! going on, it can be because the dialogue is overwritten.  I definitely feel like that happened at times this season.  

  • Like 2
gorgy

gorgy

(edited)

For no specific reason, while I was watching this finale episode, it reminded me of an old stage play called True West that starred Gary Sinise and John Malkovich at Chicago's Steppenwolf Theater, coincidentally. (It became a PBS teledrama back in the 80s, so it's probably on YouTube) There's themes of longstanding sibling resentment, family disfunction, identity crisis, yada yada yada, but the one thing that really struck me was how smoking was used to signal something beneath the surface in both of these productions.

  • For Carmy, he's trying to quit, but can't yet stop completely
  • For Sydney, she's trying her best to fill the shoes of the Carmen by taking it up but not quite pulling it off.
  • For Richie, I guess, he's comfortable smoking which allows him to settle in and finally hash out his feelings with Carmen like brothers (this last one is a bit of a stretch)

All in all, I assumed this was the final season and I was pretty happy with the ending. Will Jeremy Allen White maybe kinda sorta leaving be received like Shelly Long, where Cheers went on to have a successful run afterward or will it be like Rob Morrow leaving Northern Exposure and the series quickly sunk? (I'm guessing the latter...)

 

I came to this series late. I only binge watched the first three seasons last September or so and I honestly didn't think too much of the first two seasons. Like, I saw the appeal, but it didn't really resonate, personally. (the whole money in the tomato sauce cans thing was ridiculous, however) Anyway, whatever people hated about season 3, I absolutely loved. The meandering, the lack of progression, falling back into old patterns repeating, etc. (the stunt-casting was painful at time. I've hated Matty Matheson forever and his little side stories were a little torturous at times... especially the John Cena shit) There were just parallels in my own life that were happening in the show that spoke to me, but I won't bore you with the details. I will say, I also preferred post-season 3 Weeds better, so maybe I'm just an outlier.

 

 

Edited by gorgy
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  • Useful 1
chaifan

chaifan

6 hours ago, gorgy said:

Will Jeremy Allen White maybe kinda sorta leaving be received like Shelly Long, where Cheers went on to have a successful run afterward or will it be like Rob Morrow leaving Northern Exposure and the series quickly sunk? (I'm guessing the latter...)

My hope is that White is still the central character, and the focus moves to him finding his new passion, or rediscovering the passion of cooking.  And then the restaurant becomes a secondary character, instead of the main character.  I'm sort of done with the "will the restaurant survive?" theme.  I'd love a flash forward of 3-6 months, and for The Bear to have stabilized, The Beef has its franchises/offshoots, and for the show to revolve more around the relationships between all these characters and less on the kitchen.  Oh, and for them to fit in as many shots as possible of Luca holding babies.  Yeah, that works.  😁

  • Like 5
Racj82

Racj82

On 6/26/2025 at 4:02 AM, FemmyV said:

I'm pretty sure it's not a comedy when the protagonist's last scenes are apologizing to and propping up the guy who spent the first three seasons trying to prove he was the biggest dick in the room.

The show literally framed as a comedy because of its general run time. Half hour shows do not get put in the drama category. That is the reason. 

The Emmy's really should make a category for these shows that are like fusion. But, many dramas have comedic elements and vice versa. I never really cared. This show can me laugh or cry on a dime so whatever. As long as it gets nominated.

On 6/27/2025 at 5:07 PM, ichbin said:

I have been a fan from the beginning, but I'm just going to say it...this was not a good season overall.  

Couldn't disagree more. I never felt a slump at all in this show but I was definitely more invested in this season than last.

FemmyV

FemmyV

7 hours ago, Racj82 said:

But, many dramas have comedic elements and vice versa. I never really cared.

Nonetheless ultimately what it comes down to is happy ending or sad ending. I honestly can't see a happy ending where Richie and Carmen can occupy the same space, where Richie can be trusted to not take every opportunity he can get to make digs. Low and behold, there will be a S5.

Racj82

Racj82

1 hour ago, FemmyV said:

Nonetheless ultimately what it comes down to is happy ending or sad ending. I honestly can't see a happy ending where Richie and Carmen can occupy the same space, where Richie can be trusted to not take every opportunity he can get to make digs. Low and behold, there will be a S5.

I honestly think they can now. There has been underlying tension since before Carmy came back that all was just addressed. Not saying everything will be magically healed. But, a lot less digs. 

3 hours ago, Dminches said:

There have been a number of 30 minute "dramas" including Transparent and Kidding.

Transparent. The tv show that won a bunch of awards....in the comedy category. Kidding which got Jim Carrey best actor nods...for comedy. Hence my point. They were not in the drama category at the Emmy's just like The Bear isn't. 

  • Like 3
Dminches

Dminches

2 hours ago, Racj82 said:

I honestly think they can now. There has been underlying tension since before Carmy came back that all was just addressed. Not saying everything will be magically healed. But, a lot less digs. 

Transparent. The tv show that won a bunch of awards....in the comedy category. Kidding which got Jim Carrey best actor nods...for comedy. Hence my point. They were not in the drama category at the Emmy's just like The Bear isn't. 

I didn't remember when the change was made (clearly after those 2 shows), but they don't just call any 30 minute show a comedy.

https://ew.com/awards/emmys/emmys-comedy-drama-runtime/

Black Knight

Black Knight

On 7/6/2025 at 2:44 PM, Dminches said:

I didn't remember when the change was made (clearly after those 2 shows), but they don't just call any 30 minute show a comedy.

The article you linked to was written in December 2021, and The Bear began in 2022.

So we can see that the rule change hasn't had any effect in practice. There's clearly still an inertia effect happening where the thinking still defaults to "30 minutes means comedy" even though the rule now allows otherwise.

  • Like 1
debraran

debraran

(edited)
On 6/27/2025 at 8:58 PM, Irlandesa said:

I thought it was a marked improvement from last season.  Overall, I feel more satisfied by it simply because the season ended with a decision or a plan.  That plan might get upended last season but it was at least purposeful.  Whereas last season I felt like it was completely treading water.

However, even though I liked the season more overall, and loved watching the three-hander for most of this episode, I do feel like Season 3 had more episodes that I considered excellent. There were some decent episodes this season but nothing like Forks or Napkins or even the episode where Sugar gives birth.

Forks will always be my favorite, the Xmas Eve was one was too frantic for me and being Italian it wasn't my home but enough to set off PTSD ; p

I felt this wasn't a comedy but fleshing out the characters was interesting to me. Seeing Syd talk to Carm's mom and tell her about spending too much money to eat at his restaurant. Seeing her with her dad and knowing how much that relationship means to her and her real conflict with leaving or staying.  I'm glad Marcus got recognized and honored and I love the camaraderie of the group. Nothing is perfect but it was the flip side of other episodes, a balance. 

Will Carm want to go back after a rest, can you ever get that completely out of your system? 

Is The Bear coming back for another season? 

Edited by debraran
debraran

debraran

(edited)
On 7/3/2025 at 1:19 PM, FemmyV said:

i think it would be pretty funny if Carmy wound up running one of the Beefs and left the Bear to Richie and Syd to manage. Win - less stress for Carmy, he gets credit for founding the Bear, and Richie is out of his hair and playing Big Boss elsewhere.  

Yes when it's not fun anymore, when you lose the heart, it's hard to care and people notice. It happens with restaurants, the love, the "this is my baby, my life" is gone. The stress, the way it takes you away from everyone else. I remember one guy telling me, everyone thinks you work the hours you are open, that's laughable of course, so much goes on 24 hours a day but if you don't love it, it eats your soul. 

Will they have Claire and Carm get married....I like the franchise idea.  Claire I forgot what year she is in and then there is where she'll work later, but he wont have to worry about the electric bill. She obviously loves him and vice versa, if he works on himself more, which he can't do now, they have a good chance to have a good marriage....a more realistic one than TV usually shows

Edited by debraran
tennisgurl

tennisgurl

Damn, I didn't see this coming, but I also kind of did. A big theme this season is that Carm had lost his passion for cooking, that he doesn't know who he is outside of the kitchen, that he's been crashing out for basically the entire show, I can see why him stepping away would be the healthiest thing for him to do. I don't at all think that Jeremy Allen White is leaving the show, I suspect that we'll follow Carm go on a sort of cooking sabbatical to see what else he's capable of doing, figure himself out, and then might get his groove back and return. Not as a shareholder or someone in charge of the business stuff* but just as a chef. 

I would put this season as my third favorite, with season two being my favorite while season three is my least. I think we got some forward movement in the restaurant and we saw a lot of character growth from pretty much everyone, especially Carm. It didn't have all of the huge highlights that other season had, it didn't have a big upper like Forks or anything as emotionally draining as Fishes, but it was overall an improvement for me. Plus, we have Luca, Jess, and a lot of other returning characters who have spiced a lot of things up.

The comedy/drama debate lives on, the Emmy's really need to figure out what to do with these comedy/drama shows that don't really fit into either category. I will say that this season did seem finnier than the last few, and a bit less constantly dramatic. 

*Especially because Carm is terrible at math

  • Like 3
Danny Franks

Danny Franks

Almost fifteen minutes of Carmy and Sydney failing to communicate by shouting the same things at each other (that was infuriating), so we could get to the actual meat of the episode - finally acknowledging what's been blazingly obvious since the show began.

Richie blames himself for Michael's death, and thinks Carmy blames him too. And Carmy resents Richie for being so close to Michael, when it seemed like Michael was pushing Carmy away. They've both been emotionally constipated for the entire run of the show, and it's always been very evident.

Do I believe Richie missed Carmy when he was gone? Not really. We saw them interacting in Fishes, and it seemed like Richie enjoyed teasing him, along with Michael, but didn't know him that well.

I definitely believe that Richie was jealous of him, though. Because Richie clearly has self-worth issues, and probably has for most of his life, and had to see the "weird little dude" grow up to become a superstar chef, travelling the world, while Richie couldn't even keep a job as a building manager for Jimmy.

I guess the clock didn't matter after all, because Nat decided that they're doing well enough to stay in business, and Carmy has made it his mission to set them up for success before he leaves. So the fact it was set up as a big macguffin in the season opener then ignored for the entire season feels appropriate.

Racj82

Racj82

29 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

I guess the clock didn't matter after all, because Nat decided that they're doing well enough to stay in business, and Carmy has made it his mission to set them up for success before he leaves. So the fact it was set up as a big macguffin in the season opener then ignored for the entire season feels appropriate.

You are ignoring the actual reason why they wouldn't close yet. The computer now knows about the possibility of franchising that has been worked on in the background. That changes the numbers and stability. Uncle controls the money, not Nat. She can't decide to keep going. But, he can if he sees another vision.

15 hours ago, debraran said:

Is The Bear coming back for another season? 

That's not even a question. Will next season be the last is the question. I'm leaning towards yes. Especially with the lost of Jeremy looming. You have Ebon in the MCU now even if he doesn't have to be on screen that much. Jeremy and Ayo are rising stars. I listened to a podcast where they asserted that this show could go on and on. I don't believe that to be true at all. I don't think you can keep it going that much longer storyline wise. 

I feel like 5 seasons is the sweet spot for most shows. A lot of shows start dragging soon after that.

aghst

aghst

15 minutes ago, Racj82 said:

You are ignoring the actual reason why they wouldn't close yet. The computer now knows about the possibility of franchising that has been worked on in the background. That changes the numbers and stability. Uncle controls the money, not Nat. She can't decide to keep going. But, he can if he sees another vision.

If the sandwich place makes so much money that they could franchise it, why not close down The Bear which may not be profitable or not hugely profitable?

Though they made it appear like it's Ebra's decision whether they franchise it.  They might have given him some equity but can't imagine he owns all of it.

 

FemmyV

FemmyV

(edited)
22 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Richie blames himself for Michael's death, and thinks Carmy blames him too.

There is nothing in the four seasons we've seen that suggested Richie blamed himself. Ever. Likewise, nothing has ever shown us even the slightest suggestion Carmen blames him.

So either, like Claire, this is a made-up device Storer is using to account for Richie's hostility or we're going to get a S5 flashback showing us Richie undermining Mike as much as he has, trying to be Top Dog over Carmy.

 

Edited by FemmyV
sistermagpie

sistermagpie

18 hours ago, FemmyV said:

There is nothing in the four seasons we've seen that suggested Richie blamed himself. Ever. Likewise, nothing has ever shown us even the slightest suggestion Carmen blames him.

 

To me it always seemed like the issue was that Ritchie felt pushed aside because he's not the actual brother. He'd been working at The Beef the whole time, and then Mikey left it to his brilliant, distant brother. I thought that was pretty explicit, that both Ritchie and Carmy were insecure about their place in the family taken by the other for really logical reasons.

Which is why it seemed like Carmy was falling into the same pattern here--he had a big part in creating the restaurant family that brought so much to everyone else, but now he felt outside of it.

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meep.meep

meep.meep

I found the thread throughout this season was people finding/showing compassion for others, and Carmy is just taking baby steps towards doing that.  He was able to talk to his mother and apologize to Claire, but he really doesn't have any meaningful connection with others.  As he said here - he doesn't know who he really is.

He has no life outside the restaurant.  And that's his parallel with his brother who also didn't have a life outside The Beef.  You become desperate when every waking moment is tied up with perpetuating your business.  Mikey tried to escape by trying to burn down the restaurant, and taking drugs, and eventually killing himself.  That's what Carmy wants to get away from.

sistermagpie

sistermagpie

This thread got me thinking more about this, and I realized that it seemed like the show was saying okay, in the first season the characters had to deal with the practical situation of Mikey leaving The Beef to Carmy etc., so there was all that conflict, but now they're trying to get into some deeper, darker issues beneath that, even beneath the ones that were obviously there in S1.

But the idea of blame for Mikey's death didn't ring true for me. It seems like something I expect from a drama about suicide more than something that seemed than an a-ha moment for these characters and their histories.

Because it feels like the real darker issue neither would want to address is blame of Mikey, not each other. Not just for killing himself--though that would naturally bring up a lot of conflicted feelings--but it seems like both these guys adored him (and he does seem like a great guy in many ways) but he hurt them (through each other) and they didn't understand why.

Practically every flashback we see with Carmy and his brother has him begging him to work and cook together with Mikey putting him off. Presumably he thought he was doing the right thing by pushing Carmy to greener pasteurs because he thought he was special and was proud of him, but Carmy himself admitted it just felt like rejection that drove him to excellence out of spite (which would explain him not feeling welcome at the funeral). Learning that Mikey was proud of him and so did think he was good enough just kind of reinforces the idea that what's good about him is his talent as a chef.

Ritchie, whatever he said here about keeping an eye on MIkey, I thought considered himself a screw up whose job at The Beef was charity from his BFF, an impression that was also confirmed when he didn't leave the restaurant to him. In his mind Carmy was the brilliant person Ritchie was just a screw up, a role he leaned into.

So it's an ironic twist that it's Carmy who saw talent in Ritchie and believed he could be more. As true as Carmy's words were about none of this happening without Syd, he was the one who sent Tina and Ebrahim to school (and so inspired the Beef franchise), sent Ritchie to Ever and sent Marcus to Luca. They don't value him because he's a great chef, but because of how he elevated their lives in a ways that are a bit like Micheal but also unique to himself.

So I guess I feel like that's the subject that would provide actual catharsis here. Carmy not just seeing how he's been bad, but how he's been good and maybe him and Ritchie admitting some things about Michael. At least that's what I think I was feeling in this ep.

Haleth

Haleth

Carmy said he wouldn’t leave until the Bear was out of debt. How many seasons could that take? I don’t think the show will be Carmy -less until maybe the absolute finale.

I liked this season. It was so much less shouty until the last episode which made the yelling more impactful. From Bears to the end were great episodes IMO: Marcus gets his award. T beats the clock. Ebra comes up with a plan. Syd makes her decision. Carmy begins to repair things with Claire. Richie is still terribly conflicted but begins to find some peace in being the sand. Even Donna was less manic. Carmy’s decision will upset everyone and everything but will take time and maybe without the stress of making the Bear a success he can find his passion again. Maybe he can go work for Adam Shapiro. (Kidding)

The arguments between Carmy and Syd and then with Richie were painful but a lot of truths came out. They needed to exorcise the ghost of Mikey and the guilt both men felt. 

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