S03:E09: La Locker Room Aux Folles

[Kel Varnsen]

I wish they showed more of Roy's press conference. His answers were hilarious and I really wanted to know more reporter nick names.

I did like his scene with Rebecca though. She is right he is full of shit about wanting to be left alone. Because if he did, well he is rich enough to go live in some isolated village out in the country somewhere, where people won't bother him.

The Nate stuff still bugs me though. I liked Jade seeing right through Rupert almost immediately. But if she is that good at reading people, why hasn't she picked up on how Nate is still kind of a jerk.

[debraran]

5 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I wish they showed more of Roy's press conference. His answers were hilarious and I really wanted to know more reporter nick names.

I did like his scene with Rebecca though. She is right he is full of shit about wanting to be left alone. Because if he did, well he is rich enough to go live in some isolated village out in the country somewhere, where people won't bother him.

The Nate stuff still bugs me though. I liked Jade seeing right through Rupert almost immediately. But if she is that good at reading people, why hasn't she picked up on how Nate is still kind of a jerk.

I really loved the press conference too and when he isn't so "one dimensional" the underbelly of Roy is sweet to catch.

I think Jade saw Nate and how he was like, and when he messed up with model trying to be himself, talking about his family and food, instead of being what she wanted, just a date to get some publicity,give him some, she gave in a little.

I think what Rupert did to him with the "dates" at the nite out was just like Rupert, and if Nate's smart, he will tell Jade what he did. I would. They started this whole thing way too late but it is what it is. They had some filler episodes where more progress could have been made with many of the characters.

Just now, debraran said:

I really loved the press conference too and when he isn't so "one dimensional" the underbelly of Roy is sweet to catch.

I think Jade saw Nate and how he was like, and when he messed up with model trying to be himself, talking about his family and food, instead of being what she wanted, just a date to get some publicity,give him some, she gave in a little.

I think what Rupert did to him with the "dates" at the nite out was just like Rupert, and if Nate's smart, he will tell Jade what he did. I would. I think wer are to assume they did after the "you are back?" hug. Unfortunately there are a lot of guys who would have stayed . In life and I lived about 30 plus in workplace I was always surprised who really was the schmuck at times and who wasn't.

They started this whole thing way too late but it is what it is. They had some filler episodes where more progress could have been made with many of the characters. I think things will be tied up but maybe with FF to future and some left to imagination.

I will miss Ted, his character reminds me of a combo of the good men in my life. Not perfect but very good, moral, honest people.

 

[cmfran]

14 hours ago, Athena5217 said:

I think Nate gets more mumbley every episode. I depend on closed captioning to tell me what he says. Anything with Nate is my least-favorite part of wn episode.

My favorite part of this episode was Sam and Jamie silently arguing over who would get to be captain and Sam giving Jamie the finger. Second favorite was Roy’s dismay that no one defended his non-hairy ass. Another reason for Roy and Keely to get back together.

Agreed. I can't understand him most of the time.

[dovegrey]

On 5/11/2023 at 5:51 PM, debraran said:

I found myself wondering last night what you are thinking. It's not lackluster writing because they are lazy etc but Ted is "done". He can't stay there, he wouldn't be a good dad so far away and his heart was never in UK although he made some great friends. Unless he married someone there and it's not looking like it, I think he "fixes" them and moves on. Maybe someone's suggestion Roy and Nate work together or something like that will work now that everyone is working on themselves and Ted teaches forgiveness not only for them, for Nate, but his wife and himself.

I've binged the whole show in the last month or so (just got Apple TV whoo hoo), and this is my read on it, as well. Ted ran away from Kansas, processed through some heavy stuff from his childhood, and now is geographically stuck in a place where he can no longer move forward. The episode where he sought out the US-themed restaurant only to have the drug-free Total Football hallucination hit that home for me, no pun intended; he’s homesick. Most importantly, his kid is in the US - so, why is Ted, a person who is so deeply affected by losing his own father, in the UK coaching a football team? How does he move forward in his life, when his life and deeply-rooted identity is across the Atlantic? It doesn't make sense, especially now that Richmond is cohesive and functional.

I'm fully expecting the stagnation to lead to Ted leaving and going back to Kansas. That's his story arc, unless he gets back with Michelle and she and Henry move to the UK. (I'm curious who will lead Richmond if Ted leaves, because I don't think Roy is quite ready to carry the team as manager. I have a hard time seeing him and Mumblekid Shelley working together but Nate's definitely on a redemption trajectory. I just...ugh. Nate's so awkward to watch, and they've even made Roy a bit creepy this season.)

[sadiegirl1999]

On 5/10/2023 at 12:27 AM, HelloooKitty said:

Completely irrelevant of any plot points, but Hannah’s skin looked absolutely LUMINOUS, especially during her confrontation with Roy.  

She gets more beautiful in each episode which is insane bc she’s already drop dead gorgeous 

[sadiegirl1999]

On 5/10/2023 at 3:14 PM, Penman61 said:

Eyebrow density is almost always a harbinger. His ass is 100% hairy.

I could be misremembering but I swear we’ve seen Roy with his shirt off and he’s definitely hairy! 

[anna0852]

40 minutes ago, sadiegirl1999 said:

I could be misremembering but I swear we’ve seen Roy with his shirt off and he’s definitely hairy! 

He was shirtless in Season One. They used the scene at the Emmy's.

[debraran]

Hairy but not like some where you could comb it. ; )

Edited May 13, 2023 by debraran

[paramitch]

My issues with this very sweet, not good episode:

Where's Ted? WHERE'S TED?!

Why is the title character on this show -- the sparkling, down-home, sweet-natured heart and soul of this show barely a presence this season -- and such a drab, pallid, hangdog caricature of himself? Why is Ted wandering vaguely in and out of scenes, giving embarrassingly bad, interminable speeches when a player comes out as gay, while still demonstrating that he doesn't understand the sport he is coaching and saying things like "You know winning and losing don't matter to me" to Beard?!

Now they are even replacing Ted at the press conferences. This is RIDICULOUS. It's Ted's job. It's so obvious he is on his way out the door -- it feels like Ted (and Sudeikis) have already utterly checked out of the show. I hate that the writing has Ted so joyless and suddenly so re-fixated on his awful ex. I hate feeling like Ted is wasting his time in London (and we don't see him in his neighborhood anymore, barely see the pub, barely see him interact meaningfully with anyone). I miss Ted.

Missed Opportunities

Why is the show missing its biggest story opportunity -- Trent's book? Why did we get Trent joining the team in order to observe and write his book -- Trent, who has been shown to be both hard-hitting, honest, and caring -- as well as a genuinely good reporter -- only to stand around and look vaguely moved by Hallmark moments? It's such a waste of the character, and such a lost opportunity -- it would've been a great sense of some tension. For instance, what if Trent questioned/interacted honestly with Ted about Ted's lack of knowledge about the sport he has now been coaching for three years now? And Ted's lack of interest in becoming a better technical coach?

Trent could have been this season's Dr. Sharon -- the outsider who helped each of them to face or address some aspect of their lives or work with the team. Seeing Trent interview Rebecca could have been fascinating and given Rebecca more chance to address and work through her situation with Rupert! Instead of making this season about some stupid psychic prediction and the insulting subtext that Rebecca wants kids (because she's a woman of a certain age, so she MUST want kids, ugh).

What if the tension about Colin being gay had extended further with Trent, in terms of him struggling even a little with wanting to write about Colin's landmark situation (and communicating that with Colin)?

What if interviews with Trent had revealed that Roy and Keeley ended their relationship without even trying to save it, out of mutual insecurity and fear of a good thing? What if Keeley wasn't in this awful colorless PR firm and that awful relationship with Jack but instead hustling and succeeding in high-glamor PR, making a killing? Etc.

Letting Colin's Story Down

I was glad Colin came out. But personally, I hated that they cut away from Colin's confession that he is gay. It is one of the most important moments in his life, and the cutaway just felt irritating and self-conscious. We have been waiting for this all season, and we don't get to see Colin be brave and speak the words? We don't see the breath of pause and everyone's reactions, which would have been so moving? They truly didn't give actor Billy Harris the moment we've been waiting for?! Ugh.

And Colin saves the game and kicks ass out on the field, and we don't get to see that in the actual gameplay either? WTF? What a missed opportunity! Why not see Colin, filled with joy and confidence, absolutely kick ass in the final seconds, winning the game for them? Why did we just have to get blips and announcer comments?

Lack of Extended Football

See above. I was glad we got some gameplay this episode, but again, it skipped past the real tension of a pretty high-stakes game and again, it really bums me out. This show's games at their best have been amazingly tense and exciting. And it's also where we get most of the meaningful character  moments for the Greyhounds. So here, we did get to see Sam for a few seconds of leadership, we've seen Jamie making some selfless and brilliant plays, but this episode (and season) have still utterly lacked the greater tension and excitement the games gave us last season, and both characters deserve more. And the Isaac stuff just felt over the top and awkward to me (and I never believed for a second that he was being homophobic in his reaction).

Out of Character/Over the Top Characterizations

I just feel like the writing is so bad this season. The confident, badass Keeley from seasons 1 and 2 would never text-bomb Jack (especially not after she slut-shamed and walked out on her). Beard would never scream about a guitarist at a press conference. And Ted would never casually skip press conferences (it's a 15-30 minute window, come on), having jokey teacher-student conferences on his laptop or wandering in to give parody speeches about guys who eat 7-layer dip and destroy their toilets in order to tell Colin they care about him. It feels like he's gone full circle back to being an SNL version of himself. 

The only sub-storylines that have worked for me this season are Roy/Jamie (although we get far too little) and Nate, because we are continuing to see him come back from abuse and bullying and understand that accepting love can be healing. I liked the Rupert stuff because it also provides contrast -- Rupert is a cruel, evil man who attempts to destroy everything around him just because he can. Nate is not evil, just an insecure, immature man recovering from abuse and bullying and discovering he may even turn out to be a confident person. I loved the look on Jade's face when Rupert said "I'd almost say you're out of his league!" Kudos to actress Edyta Budnik, because you see Jade's face freeze in instant dislike and recognition even while poor Nate is just standing there beaming. Jade knows Rupert dislikes and despises Nate even if Nate doesn't. So I liked that moment, and liked Nate leaving Rupert's "guys-night" trap (openly designed to bring down Nate's relationship with Jade). For the first time, it made me think I kind of understand Jade as a person -- that she intensely dislikes people trying to impress her, and is disarmed by honesty and sincerity (which was why she sat down with Nate finally).

Honestly, most of the scenes still feel sort of off to me. Like a really rough draft of "Ted Lasso" that somehow made it to the air.

I still love the show. It still gives me a warm hug feeling. But I can't help but grieve at this season and how what used to make the show lighter than air now sinks like a stone. It feels like everyone hit it big, and then everyone's attention became scattered -- like maybe Brett Goldstein and Bill Lawrence were focusing on "Shrinking," Hunt has a new show in the works, and Sudeikis is either burned out or moving on to other things.

I'm just frustrated. It's such a huge drop in quality. I wish this season were better. Still holding out hope the next three eps end us on a high note (but I'm not holding my breath).

On 5/9/2023 at 7:35 PM, Thalia said:

As for Nate, I know many, including me, have said that his redemption is coming too easy.  But I have to admit that him seeing, for himself, how evil and selfish Rupert is and saying, that is not for me -- it made me happy. 

It's one of the few things I've liked this season. But then again, I'm one of the few people who doesn't want Nate to DIAF.

On 5/9/2023 at 7:50 PM, Girl in a Cardigan said:

Ted during the parent-teacher conference is exactly why he and Michelle got divorced. Like, we all love his folksy charm and his long stories about Denver Bronco fans, but you're a Zoom call with a six-hour time difference for 20 minutes with your kid's teacher and you can't stop cracking Isaac Newton jokes? Michelle has to do all the asking about bringing up Henry's failing science grade and Ted's just doing a bit. C'mon man, for all of your manpain about your kid when he's around or not, step up and ask an intelligent question about your kid's schooling! Stop making your ex-wife be the adult in the room all the time! (It's like Sally Field and Robin Williams in Mrs. Doubtfire - that's so exhausting!)

I hated everything about that scene. And I hated Mrs. Doubtfire -- awful, toxic movie.

On 5/9/2023 at 9:27 PM, HelloooKitty said:

Completely irrelevant of any plot points, but Hannah’s skin looked absolutely LUMINOUS, especially during her confrontation with Roy.  

Hannah is such a stunning woman. Seriously, she is a goddess. I wish they were giving Rebecca more to do this season.

On 5/10/2023 at 3:27 AM, DEL901 said:

She seems a bit flattered when Rupert told Nate she was almost out of his league and he seemed very interested to find out where she worked.    Since the boys’ night didn’t work, I think he is going to show up at the restaurant. And I agree she isn’t to be trusted.  And I wonder how significant the whole accent discussion was….

I definitely saw the actress's reaction differently -- one of frozen disbelief and silent anger. She freezes -- like, her smile instantly becomes fixed -- when Rupert says that, and I thought it was very well acted. I did like learning she's Slavic -- I think that explains her rather inscrutable bluntness.

On 5/10/2023 at 9:59 AM, Blakeston said:

But I think a lot more people understand now that if someone doesn't give a second thought to sexual orientation or gender identity, that means they're very lucky. People who grow up queer don't have that luxury. And if you're not queer, you should care that your friends don't get to take certain rights for granted the way that you do.

Speaking from experience, this is so true. 

On 5/10/2023 at 6:13 PM, angora said:

I appreciate something else they chose to omit: actually hearing that Richmond fan call them "f****ts." I like how they did that, making it very clear from context what was being said but drowning out the word itself with a noise like ringing in the ears as we zoomed in on Colin's reaction.

I was very appreciative that the show implied the slur but we didn't hear it. I found that very thoughtful of the show.

On 5/10/2023 at 8:56 PM, angora said:

It occurs to me that, in a way, Rebecca's conversation with Roy in her office is her returning the favor for, "Don't you dare settle for fine." The two speeches have a different impetus and are tailored to the specific insecurities of the person receiving it, but both have the same theme of "don't miss out on true happiness because you're afraid to try/you think you don't deserve it." Yet another reason to love that scene!

I definitely thought it was a deliberate bookend. I still found it kind of clunky and overdone, and wish it had felt more genuine (and less yelly), since they have had so few interactions this season at all.

On 5/10/2023 at 9:41 PM, Girl in a Cardigan said:

I think he was just "class checking" Jade. When I was going to London a lot (about 5-10 years ago, pre-Brexit), most of my servers in restaurants were Eastern European and a lot were Polish. I figure Rupert talks to a lot of these women as part of his charm offensive, so he's picked up info about the different regions in Poland as a way to figure out which women may be easily impressed or easily identified as "other" for reasons.

He's showing off a "party trick" but letting Jade know that he knows she's an "other" (not British) and not of his class. She's, of course, giving it right back to him, which is excellent. But that's why it annoys me more that Nate's sitting there, smiling like his boss bestie and his girlfriend are hitting off when that is NOT what is happening at all.

This is brilliant, and I agree as far as Rupert/Jade. I felt like it was believable for Nate to be clueless, because he's not terribly socially adept. He does catch on to Rupert sometimes, but not always, and it was really sad to me to see Nate so pleased here at Rupert engaging with Jade, not even aware that Rupert was mocking and insulting him. But Jade knew it, and did not like it at all (which made me really respect her). It was one of the best scenes in the episode for me.

On 5/11/2023 at 5:56 AM, MissLucas said:

I'm always a bit baffled by the expectation that someone who was exposed to years of emotional abuse and bullying would automatically turn into a well rounded, nice and easy going personality once their life took a turn for the better. It can happen but it's not a given like Hollywood would like us to believe. Tons of internalized vitriol does not magically disappear. As much as I loathe the things Nate has done I applaud the show for going this dark (literally with his admittedly snazzy suits which are really a thing of beauty) with his storyline.

This, this, this! Abuse and bullying don't always make people their best selves. It has been one of the best aspects of this show's writing for me -- Nate's thin skin, anger issues, insecurity, constant need for validation, etc. His adoration of Ted and his overreaction when he felt Ted had abandoned and betrayed him. 

I like watching Nate heal this season, and don't think he's getting any more disproportionate attention than he did the previous seasons, when we saw his interactions with his family, his struggles and desires for approval, etc. 

On 5/11/2023 at 6:51 AM, Enigma X said:

For me, with Nate, it comes down to if you believe he is an asshole only because of his abuse or if he is an asshole and was abused. I am no specialist, but Nate's trajectory for me seems like the latter.  I am well acquainted on a personal level with how abuse works in the real world and know it is different for everyone.  I just still see Nate as selfish, and his turn away from being a heel will be for selfish reasons only.

I definitely understand this, and empathize, as a survivor of some pretty heavy abuse and bullying that included permanent physical damage myself. But in terms of Nate, I disagree. 

For me, Nate is one of the show's best-written characters. He's a shy, immature, lonely, insecure man  who was so emotionally bullied and disregarded by his father (and then again in his first years with the team before Ted) that he is desperate for love, admiration, validation, and when he started to get those, he didn't know how to handle it. He's a brilliant coach/strategist but he is only now just learning how to be an adult.

Bullying didn't make me a bully (thank goodness), but it did make me desperate for love and approval when I was young. So I still deeply feel for Nate. I was very moved by his final scene with Ted last season, where he was openly weeping while trying to express his anger and hurt to Ted (beautifully acted by Nick Mohammed). I felt like we could see the damaged little boy in that moment, the guy who thought he'd found safety and support and who felt discarded (even though he wasn't). But MMV. :)

On 5/11/2023 at 9:48 AM, DearEvette said:

I wonder about the abuse narrative for Nate.  Yes, we saw him being bullied by Jamie, Isaac and Collin but I am not sure I am comfortable with calling his relationship with his father abusive.  We have seen his father being stern and less than complimentary but I don't know if for me those couple of interactions rise to the level of assuming Nate was abused.

I disagree. I absolutely feel that the show has clearly demonstrated that Nate's father is and was emotionally abusive to Nate. The constant belittling, the cruel comments, the putdowns. The purposefully ignoring him and showing visible contempt toward him. The insults even when Nate did something amazing, like saving a game and getting a huge newspaper headline. The open lack of respect or gratitude when Nate tried to do something nice for him -- and all of it enabled by Nate's weak mother, who excused all of it. To me, the show has demonstrated amply that Nate has spent his life under his father's glare and openly treated like he will always be worthless.

The bullying by the team (and -- heavily implied -- by the former coach of the Greyhounds) then just exacerbated all of that -- amplifying the trauma already existing inside Nate and twisting him further.

One of my wishes before the end of this show is to see Nate respectfully tell his horrible father that his treatment of him as his son was unacceptable and he will no longer allow it in his life.

Edited May 13, 2023 by paramitch
fixed a word

[debraran]

2 hours ago, paramitch said:

My issues with this very sweet, not good episode:

Where's Ted? WHERE'S TED?!

Why is the title character on this show -- the sparkling, down-home, sweet-natured heart and soul of this show barely a presence this season -- and such a drab, pallid, hangdog caricature of himself? Why is Ted wandering vaguely in and out of scenes, giving embarrassingly bad, interminable speeches when a player comes out as gay, while still demonstrating that he doesn't understand the sport he is coaching and saying things like "You know winning and losing don't matter to me" to Beard?!

Now they are even replacing Ted at the press conferences. This is RIDICULOUS. It's Ted's job. It's so obvious he is on his way out the door -- it feels like Ted (and Sudeikis) have already utterly checked out of the show. I hate that the writing has Ted so joyless and suddenly so re-fixated on his awful ex. I hate feeling like Ted is wasting his time in London (and we don't see him in his neighborhood anymore, barely see the pub, barely see him interact meaningfully with anyone). I miss Ted.

Missed Opportunities

Why is the show missing its biggest story opportunity -- Trent's book? Why did we get Trent joining the team in order to observe and write his book -- Trent, who has been shown to be both hard-hitting, honest, and caring -- as well as a genuinely good reporter -- only to stand around and look vaguely moved by Hallmark moments? It's such a waste of the character, and such a lost opportunity -- it would've been a great sense of some tension. For instance, what if Trent questioned/interacted honestly with Ted about Ted's lack of knowledge about the sport he has now been coaching for three years now? And Ted's lack of interest in becoming a better technical coach?

Trent could have been this season's Dr. Sharon -- the outsider who helped each of them to face or address some aspect of their lives or work with the team. Seeing Trent interview Rebecca could have been fascinating and given Rebecca more chance to address and work through her situation with Rupert! Instead of making this season about some stupid psychic prediction and the insulting subtext that Rebecca wants kids (because she's a woman of a certain age, so she MUST want kids, ugh).

What if the tension about Colin being gay had extended further with Trent, in terms of him struggling even a little with wanting to write about Colin's landmark situation (and communicating that with Colin)?

What if interviews with Trent had revealed that Roy and Keeley ended their relationship without even trying to save it, out of mutual insecurity and fear of a good thing? What if Keeley wasn't in this awful colorless PR firm and that awful relationship with Jack but instead hustling and succeeding in high-glamor PR, making a killing? Etc.

Letting Colin's Story Down

I was glad Colin came out. But personally, I hated that they cut away from Colin's confession that he is gay. It is one of the most important moments in his life, and the cutaway just felt irritating and self-conscious. We have been waiting for this all season, and we don't get to see Colin be brave and speak the words? We don't see the breath of pause and everyone's reactions, which would have been so moving? They truly didn't give actor Billy Harris the moment we've been waiting for?! Ugh.

And Colin saves the game and kicks ass out on the field, and we don't get to see that in the actual gameplay either? WTF? What a missed opportunity! Why not see Colin, filled with joy and confidence, absolutely kick ass in the final seconds, winning the game for them? Why did we just have to get blips and announcer comments?

Lack of Extended Football

See above. I was glad we got some gameplay this episode, but again, it skipped past the real tension of a pretty high-stakes game and again, it really bums me out. This show's games at their best have been amazingly tense and exciting. And it's also where we get most of the meaningful character  moments for the Greyhounds. So here, we did get to see Sam for a few seconds of leadership, we've seen Jamie making some selfless and brilliant plays, but this episode (and season) have still utterly lacked the greater tension and excitement the games gave us last season, and both characters deserve more. And the Isaac stuff just felt over the top and awkward to me (and I never believed for a second that he was being homophobic in his reaction).

Out of Character/Over the Top Characterizations

I just feel like the writing is so bad this season. The confident, badass Keeley from seasons 1 and 2 would never text-bomb Jack (especially not after she slut-shamed and walked out on her). Beard would never scream about a guitarist at a press conference. And Ted would never casually skip press conferences (it's a 15-30 minute window, come on), having jokey teacher-student conferences on his laptop or wandering in to give parody speeches about guys who eat 7-layer dip and destroy their toilets in order to tell Colin they care about him. It feels like he's gone full circle back to being an SNL version of himself. 

The only sub-storylines that have worked for me this season are Roy/Jamie (although we get far too little) and Nate, because we are continuing to see him come back from abuse and bullying and understand that accepting love can be healing. I liked the Rupert stuff because it also provides contrast -- Rupert is a cruel, evil man who attempts to destroy everything around him just because he can. Nate is not evil, just an insecure, immature man recovering from abuse and bullying and discovering he may even turn out to be a confident person. I loved the look on Jade's face when Rupert said "I'd almost say you're out of his league!" Kudos to actress Edyta Budnik, because you see Jade's face freeze in instant dislike and recognition even while poor Nate is just standing there beaming. Jade knows Rupert dislikes and despises Nate even if Nate doesn't. So I liked that moment, and liked Nate leaving Rupert's "guys-night" trap (openly designed to bring down Nate's relationship with Jade). For the first time, it made me think I kind of understand Jade as a person -- that she intensely dislikes people trying to impress her, and is disarmed by honesty and sincerity (which was why she sat down with Nate finally).

Honestly, most of the scenes still feel sort of off to me. Like a really rough draft of "Ted Lasso" that somehow made it to the air.

I still love the show. It still gives me a warm hug feeling. But I can't help but grieve at this season and how what used to make the show lighter than air now sinks like a stone. It feels like everyone hit it big, and then everyone's attention became scattered -- like maybe Brett Goldstein and Bill Lawrence were focusing on "Shrinking," Hunt has a new show in the works, and Sudeikis is either burned out or moving on to other things.

I'm just frustrated. It's such a huge drop in quality. I wish this season were better. Still holding out hope the next three eps end us on a high note (but I'm not holding my breath).

It's one of the few things I've liked this season. But then again, I'm one of the few people who doesn't want Nate to DIAF.

I hated everything about that scene. And I hated Mrs. Doubtfire -- awful, toxic movie.

Hannah is such a stunning woman. Seriously, she is a goddess. I wish they were giving Rebecca more to do this season.

I definitely saw the actress's reaction differently -- one of frozen disbelief and silent anger. She freezes -- like, her smile instantly becomes fixed -- when Rupert says that, and I thought it was very well acted. I did like learning she's Slavic -- I think that explains her rather inscrutable bluntness.

Speaking from experience, this is so true. 

I was very appreciative that the show implied the slur but we didn't hear it. I found that very thoughtful of the show.

I definitely thought it was a deliberate bookend. I still found it kind of clunky and overdone, and wish it had felt more genuine (and less yelly), since they have had so few interactions this season at all.

This is brilliant, and I agree as far as Rupert/Jade. I felt like it was believable for Nate to be clueless, because he's not terribly socially adept. He does catch on to Rupert sometimes, but not always, and it was really sad to me to see Nate so pleased here at Rupert engaging with Jade, not even aware that Rupert was mocking and insulting him. But Jade knew it, and did not like it at all (which made me really respect her). It was one of the best scenes in the episode for me.

This, this, this! Abuse and bullying don't always make people their best selves. It has been one of the best aspects of this show's writing for me -- Nate's thin skin, anger issues, insecurity, constant need for validation, etc. His adoration of Ted and his overreaction when he felt Ted had abandoned and betrayed him. 

I like watching Nate heal this season, and don't think he's getting any more disproportionate attention than he did the previous seasons, when we saw his interactions with his family, his struggles and desires for approval, etc. 

I definitely understand this, and empathize, as a survivor of some pretty heavy abuse and bullying that included permanent physical damage myself. But in terms of Nate, I disagree. 

For me, Nate is one of the show's best-written characters. He's a shy, immature, lonely, insecure man  who was so emotionally bullied and disregarded by his father (and then again in his first years with the team before Ted) that he is desperate for love, admiration, validation, and when he started to get those, he didn't know how to handle it. He's a brilliant coach/strategist but he is only now just learning how to be an adult.

Bullying didn't make me a bully (thank goodness), but it did make me desperate for love and approval when I was young. So I still deeply feel for Nate. I was very moved by his final scene with Ted last season, where he was openly weeping while trying to express his anger and hurt to Ted (beautifully acted by Nick Mohammed). I felt like we could see the damaged little boy in that moment, the guy who thought he'd found safety and support and who felt discarded (even though he wasn't). But MMV. :)

I disagree. I absolutely feel that the show has clearly demonstrated that Nate's father is and was emotionally abusive to Nate. The constant belittling, the cruel comments, the putdowns. The purposefully ignoring him and showing visible contempt toward him. The insults even when Nate did something amazing, like saving a game and getting a huge newspaper headline. The open lack of respect or gratitude when Nate tried to do something nice for him -- and all of it enabled by Nate's weak mother, who excused all of it. To me, the show has demonstrated amply that Nate has spent his life under his father's glare and openly treated like he will always be worthless.

The bullying by the team (and -- heavily implied -- by the former coach of the Greyhounds) then just exacerbated all of that -- amplifying the trauma already existing inside Nate and twisting him further.

One of my wishes before the end of this show is to see Nate respectfully tell his horrible father that his treatment of him as his son was unacceptable and he will no longer allow it in his life.

I hope to see him talk to dad too, I've known fathers like that and they can cause a lot of damage without the overt cruelty of hitting etc. (moms too)

Besides the Lego guy which has been brought up on many forums and called the "easter egg" shows like to put out for eagle eyed fans, many fans bring up the Iphone. I was mystified and maybe too old to get the correlation, but I guess Apple doesn't like "bad guys" to use iphones in a noticeable way and now Nate has one. “Apple, they let you use iPhones in movies, but—and this is very pivotal—if you’re ever watching a mystery movie, bad guys cannot have iPhones on camera,” Johnson said."

This is all in fun but time will tell.

[shapeshifter]

On 5/10/2023 at 3:14 PM, Penman61 said:

Eyebrow density is almost always a harbinger. His ass is 100% hairy.

Not always.
Don't ask how I know.

[tljgator]

I feel like no one is accounting for man-scaping in the hairy ass debate. 

[DearEvette]

16 hours ago, paramitch said:

I disagree. I absolutely feel that the show has clearly demonstrated that Nate's father is and was emotionally abusive to Nate. The constant belittling, the cruel comments, the putdowns. The purposefully ignoring him and showing visible contempt toward him. The insults even when Nate did something amazing, like saving a game and getting a huge newspaper headline. The open lack of respect or gratitude when Nate tried to do something nice for him -- and all of it enabled by Nate's weak mother, who excused all of it. To me, the show has demonstrated amply that Nate has spent his life under his father's glare and openly treated like he will always be worthless.

We've only seen three interactions of his father on the show and they have been rather brief.  Canonically, none of the things shown on screen can definitively point to childhood abuse, imo,  until the show makes it so.

At the restaurant, his father was exasperated and maybe embarrassed by Nate's blathering on in front of Jade.  Frankly, it was rather cringe.  And later he tells Nate he is 'not a dog' when Nate whistles at him.  I feel that we are supposed to see Nate's dad  as this mean, cruel person because the show spent the entire  episode showing us what a sad sack pitiful creature Nate is.  Also it is notably the one where Jade was rude to him.  We are 100% led to feel bad for Nate and want to root for him the entire  episode even before his father makes an appearance. It is human nature to want to figure out a 'why' someone is the way they are.  And of course when we meet his father he is a stern visaged, stand-offish man. Which could mean a lot of things, including that he just has a distant prickly relationship with his son. Could he have been abusive? Sure?  Or he could just be a  taciturn person who has been repeatedly disappointed by this son and he doesn't hide it.

And then there is the Wunderkind episode where his father is reading a paper and is dismissive of Nate's accomplishment. If we have already been pre-disposed to think his father was abusive from the prior episode this one would cement that. But, as I wondered above, his father's dismissiveness here could just as easily come from him not being impressed with Soccer as profession and has nothing to do with being a bad father.  By contrast Nate's sister is a lawyer and seems to have a better relationship with the father. There could be some cultural norms or expectations at play.  But at this point we are seeing an adult man interacting with his adult son and have no idea what led the to the place they are.

Yes his dad is stern and stand-offish. It is not the ideal parenting we like to see, but it doesn't automatically point to abuse.

The show is obviously playing with themes of fatherhood.  Ted's personality is definitely a product of his father's suicide at such a young age.  Jamie's father is canonically abusive, and then there is Sam whose dad does seem to be the loving and wonderful ideal.

[DEL901]

With regard to Nate’s father not being impressed with soccer as a profession, until season 2, Nate was a Kitman, which was very much low man on the totem pole even though he was pushing 40, assuming he is a similar age to the actor.  

I get the impression thatNate’s father was distant and demanding.  And also the type to withhold praise, perhaps to “build character”.  In Nate, it just built insecurity.  

[MicheleinPhilly]

Thank goodness for this thread because I thought Rebecca said "the guitarist from Creed" and spent about 10 minutes cackling maniacally. May have to do a re-watch to see what I missed during that explosion. 

[Penman61]

4 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Not always.
Don't ask how I know.

Hoping we don't share the same revelatory data point, but I will note I did qualify with "almost." :)

Edited May 14, 2023 by Penman61

[Abra]

8 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Or he could just be a  taciturn person who has been repeatedly disappointed by this son and he doesn't hide it.

8 hours ago, DearEvette said:

his father is reading a paper and is dismissive of Nate's accomplishment.

The Adverse Childhood Experiences, or “ACEs,” quiz asks a series of 10 questions about common traumatic experiences that occur in early life.

Question 1: Did a parent or other adult in the household often or very often… Swear at you, insult you, put you down, or humiliate you?

 

Nate easily has at least one check mark on this quiz, clearly from a lifetime of this from his father. And then all the team bullying until Ted came along. We don't get to decide if someone's life experiences are "worthy" enough of being traumatic to them (and that goes for ourselves as well); our bodies and our nervous systems decide if something is a trauma and those get reflected outward by our physical responses and our behaviors if we don't process that trauma.

Now, just because Nate is an asshole - and there's no excuse for that behavior, truly fuck him for how he's acted and his "redemption arc" or whatever the hell the show is doing with his plot is not nearly good enough to address/acknowledge his behavior - that also doesn't mean he didn't experience emotional abuse. I'd guess he's got a good amount of emotional neglect from his dad as well, another potential point on scale.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Abra

[mledawn]

On 5/11/2023 at 12:14 PM, tennisgurl said:

I don't love that so much of Nate's growth is being tied to his relationship with Jade, instead of him realizing that Rupert is a garbage person who's using him and that was a total dick to his old friends,

And before he knew it was Jade delivering the "mail", he was snarky with the correction of his name. He is still trying to build himself up by putting down others.

It's also as if the writers have decided Nate wasn't previously an employee of Rupert and treated badly as the kit man. Nate already knows of Rupert's sliminess and shitty behaviours.

 

I did really enjoy this episode but echo what others have said about the show moving away from Ted and/or his lack of progress.

[Enigma X]

21 minutes ago, mledawn said:

It's also as if the writers have decided Nate wasn't previously an employee of Rupert and treated badly as the kit man. Nate already knows of Rupert's sliminess and shitty behaviours.

Honestly, until you said it, I had not put this together either. Exactly!

[Captain Carrot]

7 hours ago, mledawn said:

It's also as if the writers have decided Nate wasn't previously an employee of Rupert and treated badly as the kit man. Nate already knows of Rupert's sliminess and shitty behaviours.

Rupert is probably benefiting from the fact that  he didn't have much interaction with Nate back in the day as Nate wasn't important enough to notice. And we've seen Rupert be 'charming' to people he probably doesn't care for. (Like the bar patrons in S1 and Jade in this episode). Nate probably blamed the people he interacted with and never stopped to consider who allowed that behavior to occur. It should also be pointed out that Nate was surprised by Rupert's fooling around with women despite the stories in the paper about his divorce with Rebecca being caused by that exact behavior. (Jade probably knew about those stories, and she doesn't seem like the type of person to like someone that would do that).

I think this is because Nate has a tendency to see people in black and white terms. People are either great or they're horrible.

Look at his view of Ted at the end of S2. He got mad at Ted over perceived slights. So Ted was a glory hound that wanted all the credit, and only gave credit to others when he was planning on throwing them under the bus when something failed. 🤪

Rupert treats him well (in a condescending and shallow sort of way) so Rupert's a great guy, and he'll ignore any evidence that goes against that view of Rupert. Nate will probably ignore any advise from his parents (definitely from his father). If he spoke to anyone from Richmond, then he would probably ignore anything they said as well. He needs someone that he'll listen to that can get him to stop ignoring the simple fact that Rupert is a shit. And that's where I think Jade is going to come in.

At some point Nate will see Rupert for who he is, and realize in that moment that Nate was equally shitty to Ted, Will, and the rest of Richmond. And he'll have to make a choice on how to fix things. That's when we'll find out if this is a redemption story.

 

[Uncle JUICE]

On 5/13/2023 at 12:46 AM, sadiegirl1999 said:

She gets more beautiful in each episode which is insane bc she’s already drop dead gorgeous 

When she's upbraiding Roy, and rightfully so, she looked incredible. Frankly on the WAY to upbraiding Roy she looked incredible too. How on earth did she not become a big star earlier in life? She's been one of the real beacons of excellence in this series from the first episode, she's drop dead gorgeous, she can do humor, she can do emotion, I guess better late than never, but good grief, when you add her arms and tush game in with her absolutely dominant hair game, she's a titan. How did we miss her for so long?

Far as the episode goes, once again I'm in the minority. The plus side, I was glad to see Rachel give it to Roy, whose act might play with the youngsters but she is HIS BOSS. I kinda wish she reacted a little more firmly at first, though, rather than on second thought, because his first response, 'fuck off', is totally inappropriate regardless of your personal relationship, you are on work grounds. 

I knew exactly how Ted Lasso was going to handle the whole Hughes thing, including the Isaac side of it, but come on Lasso, the way it played out was absolutely stupid. The team is trying to avoid relegation down a goal at home. Their captain just charged into the stands and physically accosted a fan. The halftime talk cannot be fifteen minutes of who's gay or not, I'm sorry. The halftime talk is basically "Thanks to our captain, who we can bet is going to be suspended for the remainder of the season, we are playing down a man, so here's what adjustments we're going to make." THere is no hugging, no goofing around, what happened there was a VERY serious problem. I figured the only reason they had Keely THERE was because she was going to immediately start dealing with the situation. Nope, the team owner, the team GM, they're all just fine, watching the game, when literally the only thing that they'd be worried about from that moment forward was a potential lawsuit, and what they have to do with Isaac. I don't know that Ted Lasso is going to show us the discussions about cutting Isaac, but if Isaac is just on the team and everyone's like aw shucks, that's our guy, come on now. Stop being a sports show, then, Ted Lasso. I'll watch ALL the show you want about Rebecca. But don't be a sports show if you want to ignore the sports-y side of it. Isaac embarassed himself, and the team, despite noble intentions. Yes, you can do damage control (by having Hughes come out to the world, then corroborate Isaac's account, of course) but in the end, that damage control is for the CLUB. Isaac has to do his own, on his own. 

[DearEvette]

51 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

When she's upbraiding Roy, and rightfully so, she looked incredible. Frankly on the WAY to upbraiding Roy she looked incredible too. How on earth did she not become a big star earlier in life? She's been one of the real beacons of excellence in this series from the first episode, she's drop dead gorgeous, she can do humor, she can do emotion, I guess better late than never, but good grief, when you add her arms and tush game in with her absolutely dominant hair game, she's a titan. How did we miss her for so long?

I remember when I first started watching the show back in season one, there is that one scene in her office where Higgins brings Ted to meet her.  And if I am not mistaken she is wearing a very similar outfit in that first ep as she is wearing  here... the silky sleeveless chemise top, pencil skirt, ice-pick heeled pumps... She is standing there getting herself a drink and all I could think was , damn, she has a banging body!  LOL.

But I agree, she has been the biggest revelation (well, her and Brett Goldstein) for me.  This show has made me a fan!

[Uncle JUICE]

19 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

I remember when I first started watching the show back in season one, there is that one scene in her office where Higgins brings Ted to meet her.  And if I am not mistaken she is wearing a very similar outfit in that first ep as she is wearing  here... the silky sleeveless chemise top, pencil skirt, ice-pick heeled pumps... She is standing there getting herself a drink and all I could think was , damn, she has a banging body!  LOL.

But I agree, she has been the biggest revelation (well, her and Brett Goldstein) for me.  This show has made me a fan!

Whoever is dressing Rebecca as a character is on like a 88 match unbeaten streak, they deserve all the Emmies for her wardrobe. It's like if the word "chic" could walk around. 

[mledawn]

13 hours ago, Captain Carrot said:

I think this is because Nate has a tendency to see people in black and white terms. People are either great or they're horrible.

Great point. It’s a function of him lacking emotional intelligence.

[MicheleinPhilly]

1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

I remember when I first started watching the show back in season one, there is that one scene in her office where Higgins brings Ted to meet her.  And if I am not mistaken she is wearing a very similar outfit in that first ep as she is wearing  here... the silky sleeveless chemise top, pencil skirt, ice-pick heeled pumps... She is standing there getting herself a drink and all I could think was , damn, she has a banging body!  LOL.

I'm not proud of this because it is very gross and disrespectful, but when we first started watching the show, I literally sent a text to my friend: "OMG, the woman that plays Rebecca is sex on legs! 😍"

She is absolutely stunning. 

[AncientNewbie]

Eric Dier only got four games and a 40k quid fine for going into the stands in 2020, so with enough handwavium I can see Isaac getting back on the pitch before too long. 

[Capricasix]

4 hours ago, mledawn said:

Great point. It’s a function of him lacking emotional intelligence.

I keep remembering the episode when they promoted him to assistant coach - he came into the locker room and found Will there, assumed that he’d been fired, and then when Ted and Beard and Rebecca came along and were just about to give him the good news, he turned on Rebecca and said something like “oh, so you did this, you bitch!!” In most situations, that would have gotten his ass canned immediately.

[meep.meep]

7 hours ago, DearEvette said:

I remember when I first started watching the show back in season one, there is that one scene in her office where Higgins brings Ted to meet her.  And if I am not mistaken she is wearing a very similar outfit in that first ep as she is wearing  here... the silky sleeveless chemise top, pencil skirt, ice-pick heeled pumps... She is standing there getting herself a drink and all I could think was , damn, she has a banging body!  LOL.

Maybe it's because for some of us our only other point of reference for Hannah Waddington is a nun in an immense brown habit, ringing a bell.  I think she does a lot of theater.

For the person wondering why they didn't show Colin getting the two goals, it's because they are all actors and don't look very good in an actual game.  If you see an action shot it's usually Danny Rojas because he was an actual player.  They can all fake it for the practices, but it's really obvious otherwise.

[DEL901]

13 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

Maybe it's because for some of us our only other point of reference for Hannah Waddington is a nun in an immense brown habit, ringing a bell.  I think she does a lot of theater.

For the person wondering why they didn't show Colin getting the two goals, it's because they are all actors and don't look very good in an actual game.  If you see an action shot it's usually Danny Rojas because he was an actual player.  They can all fake it for the practices, but it's really obvious otherwise.

And I don’t think Colin scored the goals.  I thought the announcer said Colin set them both up.  

[Athena]

On 5/15/2023 at 8:49 AM, Uncle JUICE said:

When she's upbraiding Roy, and rightfully so, she looked incredible. Frankly on the WAY to upbraiding Roy she looked incredible too. How on earth did she not become a big star earlier in life? She's been one of the real beacons of excellence in this series from the first episode, she's drop dead gorgeous, she can do humor, she can do emotion, I guess better late than never, but good grief, when you add her arms and tush game in with her absolutely dominant hair game, she's a titan. How did we miss her for so long?

Adding onto some things about Hannah Waddingham's life. She is a single mother and her daughter has an auto immune disease. Hannah made the decision a few years ago to only shoot and work locally in London to be near her daughter. She use to do a lot of theatre work both plays and musicals but I think she was struggling before she got cast here.

She took on this role because they filmed it locally. We wouldn't be able to see her otherwise!

[Insert Username]

On 5/14/2023 at 10:57 AM, DearEvette said:

We've only seen three interactions of his father on the show and they have been rather brief.  Canonically, none of the things shown on screen can definitively point to childhood abuse, imo,  until the show makes it so.

At the restaurant, his father was exasperated and maybe embarrassed by Nate's blathering on in front of Jade.  Frankly, it was rather cringe.  And later he tells Nate he is 'not a dog' when Nate whistles at him.  I feel that we are supposed to see Nate's dad  as this mean, cruel person because the show spent the entire  episode showing us what a sad sack pitiful creature Nate is.  Also it is notably the one where Jade was rude to him.  We are 100% led to feel bad for Nate and want to root for him the entire  episode even before his father makes an appearance. It is human nature to want to figure out a 'why' someone is the way they are.  And of course when we meet his father he is a stern visaged, stand-offish man. Which could mean a lot of things, including that he just has a distant prickly relationship with his son. Could he have been abusive? Sure?  Or he could just be a  taciturn person who has been repeatedly disappointed by this son and he doesn't hide it.

And then there is the Wunderkind episode where his father is reading a paper and is dismissive of Nate's accomplishment. If we have already been pre-disposed to think his father was abusive from the prior episode this one would cement that. But, as I wondered above, his father's dismissiveness here could just as easily come from him not being impressed with Soccer as profession and has nothing to do with being a bad father.  By contrast Nate's sister is a lawyer and seems to have a better relationship with the father. There could be some cultural norms or expectations at play.  But at this point we are seeing an adult man interacting with his adult son and have no idea what led the to the place they are.

Yes his dad is stern and stand-offish. It is not the ideal parenting we like to see, but it doesn't automatically point to abuse.

The show is obviously playing with themes of fatherhood.  Ted's personality is definitely a product of his father's suicide at such a young age.  Jamie's father is canonically abusive, and then there is Sam whose dad does seem to be the loving and wonderful ideal.

Also, Nate's mom shares some sweet stories about her and his father, so he is definitely not abusive.  Other than that, pretty much everything we know about the father is filtered through Nate's very, very needy lens

[mledawn]

56 minutes ago, Insert Username said:

Also, Nate's mom shares some sweet stories about her and his father, so he is definitely not abusive.

Unfortunately, this is absolutely not an indication of the lack of abuse.

[Insert Username]

1 hour ago, mledawn said:

Unfortunately, this is absolutely not an indication of the lack of abuse.

Well, in the context of a show like this, it probably is. Besides, we have seen no indication that his father is physically abusive, just that he is distant and dismissive of Nate and his career. Nate was what - a 30 year old kit man - I could see his father being less than impressed by his choices, especially being from a culture that puts high priority on education and professional success.

[shapeshifter]

On 5/14/2023 at 9:59 PM, Captain Carrot said:

At some point Nate will see Rupert for who he is, and realize in that moment that Nate was equally shitty to Ted, Will, and the rest of Richmond. And he'll have to make a choice on how to fix things. That's when we'll find out if this is a redemption story.

If this is to happen, it better be next episode. 🕑🕒🕓⏰

On 5/15/2023 at 11:31 AM, mledawn said:

It’s a function of him lacking emotional intelligence.

Good point/descriptor: Nate lacks emotional intelligence. 
Is there enough time left in the series for Nate's emotional intelligence heart to grow 2 sizes?  . 🕔🕕🕖⏰
 💓💓

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by shapeshifter

[Enigma X]

Honestly, I am not saying that Nate wasn’t abused. It is totally possible. I am just saying two things can be true of someone, and the show does want the viewers to believe his behavior is only due to his abuse. I don’t feel like they have shown me that he is not an asshole who, unfortunately, was also abused. Furthermore, the redemption arc seems as if it won’t be to be reflective of how he hurt innocent bystanders but rather of what someone else has done to him. I mean the latter could also be because of both, and I would find that acceptable. There is not a lot of time to show that properly, though. I just think everything about Nate was not well planned.

[mledawn]

1 hour ago, Insert Username said:

Besides, we have seen no indication that his father is physically abusive, just that he is distant and dismissive of Nate and his career.

There are many forms of abuse, and you’re describing something that could be construed as emotional abuse. I agree that I don’t think Nate’s dad is physically abusive.

53 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

Honestly, I am not saying that Nate wasn’t abused. It is totally possible. I am just saying two things can be true of someone, and the show does want the viewers to believe his behavior is only due to his abuse. I don’t feel like they have shown me that he is not an asshole who, unfortunately, was also abused. Furthermore, the redemption arc seems as if it won’t be to be reflective of how he hurt innocent bystanders but rather of what someone else has done to him. I mean the latter could also be because of both, and I would find that acceptable. There is not a lot of time to show that properly, though. I just think everything about Nate was not well planned.

Agreed. 

[Thalia]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Is there enough time left in the series for Nate's emotional intelligence heart to grow 2 sizes?  

Maybe if Henry-Lou Who returns from Whoville Kansas and asks him why he took the "Believe" sign away.   

 

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by Thalia

[Zaffy]

I know parents that never beat their kids, but were emotionally abusive and  traumatized them for life. Abuse cannot necessarily be obvious, like coming from drunk or angry parents, it can just be parents that fill their kids with guilts and complexes or/and manipulate them and  gaslight them.  In most cases parents just think they are doing their kids a favor...

[AncientNewbie]

Whether his father was merely stern or actually abusive, I don't think there's a question that Nate was traumatized by his poor relationship with his father. The best intentioned parenting in the world can still be ham handed or land poorly on a child that needs something else. There seems to be a running theme of fathers not available to their children, be it by death, Man City obsession, stern parenting, etc., and I think one of our takeaways as this plays out is going to be how the adult children react and shape themselves. 

But Nate is a little wanker and we are running out of time for resolution of his issues in any meaningful way short of Deus Ex Lasso. 

[paramitch]

As far as whether Nate was abused by his father (I say emphatically yes), I will point out two things:

1. Common Parameters for emotional abuse applicable to Nate's father (out of a longer list): 

• Behavior that is controlling, jealous, or possessive
• Saying or doing things to humiliate the other person or make them feel stupid 
• Isolating the other person and/or discouraging or restricting them from spending time with friends or family
• Making the other person feel as though they are always wrong or that their feelings are invalid or unimportant

2. Concrete examples of what we have seen on the show:

• Earlier Episodes (S2) - Nate's father is simply silent, glaring, and seems to ignore Nate.
   
• S02E05 - in the restaurant, where Nate has brought his parents to celebrate their annivesary, every single response from Nate's father to Nate is negative and dismissive. The entire restaurant scene, even when Nate gets them the window table, his father just glares at him and rolls his eyes.
   
• S02E06 - Nate relays a story about his father's treatment of him with his first girlfriend:
  
  NATE: I try to be outwardly supportive of all relationships due to my dad sabotaging one of my first loves. 
  In year four, he sat me and my classmate, Nadia Shookums, down in the living room and said he thought we could both do better. Well, she listened to him.
   
• S02E7 - Nate shows Dad the paper that he is the main story, with a big headline and picture on the sports page.
  
  NATE: Hey Dad
  DAD (coldly): Nathan.
  NATE: Would you look at that? They'll let anyone in the newspapers now, won't they?
  (Dad looks coldly at it, frowns.)
  DAD (disapprovingly): They say humility is not thinking less of yourself, but thinking about yourself less.
  (Nate is visibly sad and deflated)
  (Dad shuts the paper back to the other section and goes on reading.)
  Mom: My little boy wonder.
  Nate: Actually, it's wonder kid. Or wonderkind...

That same episode, Nate goes on to cruelly ignore then insult Colin (who was, remember, one of Nate's original bullies with Isaac under Jamie). It's direct cause and effect. Then Beard calls him out on it, and Nate apologizes to Colin in front of the team (apparently sincerely) and Colin very sweetly accepts.

Season 2 was specifically, very pointedly, about fathers and sons. And I would absolutely argue that based on what we were shown, Nate's father is emotionally abusive, and (as we must assume this is how he has always been) and always was. And that created what I feel the show has very deliberately presented to us -- a painfully insecure, shy, somewhat stunted man who is still a little boy inside (a side of himself encouraged by his mother, harmful in a different way, even while she enabled his father), who nurses grudges and yearns for the approval he never got from his father.

For me, Nate's character and his flaws is some of the best writing on the show. Obviously, YMMV. 

On 5/14/2023 at 7:57 AM, DearEvette said:

We've only seen three interactions of his father on the show and they have been rather brief.  Canonically, none of the things shown on screen can definitively point to childhood abuse, imo,  until the show makes it so.

The show showed us the scenes it did for a reason, and on a season pointedly about fathers and sons, chose those scenes to represent Nate's childhood. Brief or not, I would argue that all of them clearly demonstrate emotional abuse by all common parameters for judgment.

The idea that Nate's father has done this to Nate for years, over and over again, reminding him at every single moment that he is unworthy, unlovable, inept, and beneath contempt,  is incredibly sad to me.

On 5/14/2023 at 8:27 AM, DEL901 said:

With regard to Nate’s father not being impressed with soccer as a profession, until season 2, Nate was a Kitman, which was very much low man on the totem pole even though he was pushing 40, assuming he is a similar age to the actor.  

He wasn't exactly working fast food. Nate was a passionate and brilliant football fan who was a kitman for a major, famous national team. I definitely think this deserved his father's approval (or anyone's). I certainly don't think it is grounds for disapproval, especially given that we want our families to be proud of what we achieve, even just rooting us on. It's still an opportunity for Nate to move forward in some way.

On 5/14/2023 at 10:27 AM, Abra said:

The Adverse Childhood Experiences, or “ACEs,” quiz asks a series of 10 questions about common traumatic experiences that occur in early life.

Question 1: Did a parent or other adult in the household often or very often… Swear at you, insult you, put you down, or humiliate you?

Nate easily has at least one check mark on this quiz, clearly from a lifetime of this from his father. And then all the team bullying until Ted came along. We don't get to decide if someone's life experiences are "worthy" enough of being traumatic to them (and that goes for ourselves as well); our bodies and our nervous systems decide if something is a trauma and those get reflected outward by our physical responses and our behaviors if we don't process that trauma.

Now, just because Nate is an asshole - and there's no excuse for that behavior, truly fuck him for how he's acted and his "redemption arc" or whatever the hell the show is doing with his plot is not nearly good enough to address/acknowledge his behavior - that also doesn't mean he didn't experience emotional abuse. I'd guess he's got a good amount of emotional neglect from his dad as well, another potential point on scale.

Thank you for this!

Although -- I would argue that abuse IS an excuse for "asshole" behavior. Does it mean that behavior is excusable? No, of course not. But it makes that behavior believable and understandable. 

Nate has always been a mixed bag. Even in Season 1, he had some really lovely, moving moments -- as well as some rude or cruel ones. Same with Season 2. I was very disappointed in Nate's actions last season but the idea that he is beyond redemption to so many (and the vast majority here) is such a bummer to me. He did a cruel and childish thing by telling Trent about Ted's panic attacks, and Ted reacted with kindness and patience, because I feel like Ted had already known about Nate's capacity for childish lashing out.

On 5/14/2023 at 10:33 AM, mledawn said:

It's also as if the writers have decided Nate wasn't previously an employee of Rupert and treated badly as the kit man. Nate already knows of Rupert's sliminess and shitty behaviours.

I don't find this to be a contradiction at all. Rupert would not even have registered Nate on his radar when he was a kitman, and the odds are very good that he and Nate never interacted at all. The odds are also good that the most Nate knew at that point was that Rupert was a standard rich douchebag who was widely known to be messing around on his wife. Then once he was on the coaching staff, sure, he heard that Rupert was an asshole, but Rupert was also someone who visibly complimented Nate (and that's the kind of thing Nate craves more than anything in order to make him feel worthy).

On 5/14/2023 at 6:59 PM, Captain Carrot said:

Rupert is probably benefiting from the fact that  he didn't have much interaction with Nate back in the day as Nate wasn't important enough to notice. And we've seen Rupert be 'charming' to people he probably doesn't care for. (Like the bar patrons in S1 and Jade in this episode). Nate probably blamed the people he interacted with and never stopped to consider who allowed that behavior to occur. It should also be pointed out that Nate was surprised by Rupert's fooling around with women despite the stories in the paper about his divorce with Rebecca being caused by that exact behavior. (Jade probably knew about those stories, and she doesn't seem like the type of person to like someone that would do that).

I think this is because Nate has a tendency to see people in black and white terms. People are either great or they're horrible.

At some point Nate will see Rupert for who he is, and realize in that moment that Nate was equally shitty to Ted, Will, and the rest of Richmond. And he'll have to make a choice on how to fix things. That's when we'll find out if this is a redemption story.

I agree completely -- really well put.

On 5/15/2023 at 5:49 AM, Uncle JUICE said:

I knew exactly how Ted Lasso was going to handle the whole Hughes thing, including the Isaac side of it, but come on Lasso, the way it played out was absolutely stupid. The team is trying to avoid relegation down a goal at home. Their captain just charged into the stands and physically accosted a fan. The halftime talk cannot be fifteen minutes of who's gay or not, I'm sorry. The halftime talk is basically "Thanks to our captain, who we can bet is going to be suspended for the remainder of the season, we are playing down a man, so here's what adjustments we're going to make." THere is no hugging, no goofing around, what happened there was a VERY serious problem. I figured the only reason they had Keely THERE was because she was going to immediately start dealing with the situation. Nope, the team owner, the team GM, they're all just fine, watching the game, when literally the only thing that they'd be worried about from that moment forward was a potential lawsuit, and what they have to do with Isaac. I don't know that Ted Lasso is going to show us the discussions about cutting Isaac, but if Isaac is just on the team and everyone's like aw shucks, that's our guy, come on now. Stop being a sports show, then, Ted Lasso. I'll watch ALL the show you want about Rebecca. But don't be a sports show if you want to ignore the sports-y side of it. Isaac embarassed himself, and the team, despite noble intentions.

Fantastically put.

On 5/15/2023 at 7:09 AM, Uncle JUICE said:

Whoever is dressing Rebecca as a character is on like a 88 match unbeaten streak, they deserve all the Emmies for her wardrobe. It's like if the word "chic" could walk around. 

One of the many things I love about Hannah Waddingham is that she has been very involved in Rebecca's costumes, and she has tended toward them being very tight sheath-like because they represented Rebecca's armor. Then as she has softened and blossomed, her outfits have softened and now frequently include transparent or slightly sheer blouses and items (always in a classy way) -- indicated that Rebecca is now approachable and more open to the world.

On 5/15/2023 at 8:31 AM, mledawn said:

Great point. It’s a function of him lacking emotional intelligence.

I absolutely agree that Nate lacks emotional intelligence. I would say that emotionally, Nate is a child.

On 5/15/2023 at 1:20 PM, Capricasix said:

I keep remembering the episode when they promoted him to assistant coach - he came into the locker room and found Will there, assumed that he’d been fired, and then when Ted and Beard and Rebecca came along and were just about to give him the good news, he turned on Rebecca and said something like “oh, so you did this, you bitch!!” In most situations, that would have gotten his ass canned immediately.

This is a good example of Nate's yin-yang as far back as season 1. His impulse the moment he perceives hurt or a slight is to lash out. It's a sad and ugly thing but I think it's very believable and not that uncommon in someone who has been abused as he has.

On 5/15/2023 at 2:19 PM, meep.meep said:

For the person wondering why they didn't show Colin getting the two goals, it's because they are all actors and don't look very good in an actual game.  If you see an action shot it's usually Danny Rojas because he was an actual player.  They can all fake it for the practices, but it's really obvious otherwise.

I might find this easier to believe if the show hadn't already deftly demonstrated many, many fantastic football moments in the field that were believable and exciting even using non-professional actors as players.

On 5/15/2023 at 3:10 PM, Athena said:

Adding onto some things about Hannah Waddingham's life. She is a single mother and her daughter has an auto immune disease. Hannah made the decision a few years ago to only shoot and work locally in London to be near her daughter. She use to do a lot of theatre work both plays and musicals but I think she was struggling before she got cast here.

She took on this role because they filmed it locally. We wouldn't be able to see her otherwise!

This is so moving to learn about her! I am so happy for all of her success -- she deserves it so very much.

On 5/16/2023 at 6:37 AM, Insert Username said:

Also, Nate's mom shares some sweet stories about her and his father, so he is definitely not abusive.  Other than that, pretty much everything we know about the father is filtered through Nate's very, very needy lens

Like many men, Nate's father could very well have been kind to his wife and even to Nate's sister, while absolutely still being abusive to Nate.

On 5/16/2023 at 7:35 AM, mledawn said:

Unfortunately, this is absolutely not an indication of the lack of abuse.

Thank you. This.

On 5/16/2023 at 4:42 PM, Zaffy said:

I know parents that never beat their kids, but were emotionally abusive and  traumatized them for life. Abuse cannot necessarily be obvious, like coming from drunk or angry parents, it can just be parents that fill their kids with guilts and complexes or/and manipulate them and  gaslight them.  In most cases parents just think they are doing their kids a favor...

For me, the show's portrait of Nate is believable and incredibly sad. What I appreciate about it is that it doesn't go the standard route of "abused person becomes heroic and selfless."

Abuse doesn't always make people into their best selves. I truly think there is a good person in Nate, and there always was a sweet guy in there, but the abuse has turned him into an immature and spiteful black hole of need, someone desperate for approval he never got.

I still think Nate will get redemption and will do so by saving the team or helping Ted against Rupert in some way. We'll see.

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by paramitch
fixed typo

[angora]

Well said, @paramitch. For me, even if Nate’s dad *thinks* he’s just offering tough love/expects better from his son, Nate has been ground down by a lifetime of these glares and cutting remarks. I also find it telling how his dad comes up in Nate’s texts from his mom. (Paraphrased): “We saw you on telly…. Your father didn’t like that you swore.” “Excited to see you for dinner tonight! …Please don’t be late. You know your father likes people to be on time.” Even in the private interactions between the two of them, Nate’s dad looms over them in an intimidating way.

And I appreciate your point that emotional abuse is an excuse for Nate’s “asshole behavior” but doesn’t make it excusable. In story situations like this, I like to say, “It’s an explanation, not an excuse.”

[ahisma]

On 5/11/2023 at 2:03 AM, debraran said:

Look at Jack and Keeley as unseemly as text bombing someone is after they ghost you and use you. She didn't do that with others, is it the money?

I don’t think it’s the money at all. Keeley was still in the limerence phase of her relationship with Jack where there was a ton of communication and contact of the giddy-making variety. All of a sudden, Jack tells her she should should basically apologize to the world for being publicly slutty so that Jack doesn’t get embarrassed, then walks out saying “maybe” she’ll be back.

It’s an abusive and controlling tactic to love-bomb someone and then withdrawing “because it’s the target’s fault” so that the target wonders what happened and how they can get the abuser back to the good times. (Hopefully, since Keeley isn’t going to apologize for getting hacked, Jack won’t swoop in with the love-bombing again.)

Keeley knew Jamie and Roy and what was going on in their relationships a lot better, and wasn’t left hanging/wondering so much with them.

[ahisma]

On 5/18/2023 at 11:17 PM, paramitch said:

Like many men, Nate's father could very well have been kind to his wife and even to Nate's sister, while absolutely still being abusive to Nate.

Even if Nate’s mother was loving and kind to her son, the fact that she thinks his father is kind and sweet, and enables his controlling behavior, tells a little boy that “Dad is right, even Mum thinks so.” So Nate got no messages that Dad’s coldness to and dismissiveness of him has wrong. Definitely emotionally abusive. (As mentioned, an explanation of Nate’s behavior, not an excuse.)

[Ottis]

So Isaac acted like a prick for days, maybe weeks, and then goes after a fan and gets a red card and disadvantages his team because… Colin didn’t trust him? Colin hadn’t told anyone, not just Isaac. Just… no. Also, is this 2004?