S01.E09: Look for the Light

[lasu]

If we accept that Ellie is young enough to need a parent, we have to accept that she is young enough to need parenting, which sometimes includes the parent making the choice for the child. And then Joel told his daughter a fairy tale so she can sleep at night. 

I'm an only child who raised by my single father, just the two of us, and as such, I didn't bat an eyelash at Joel murdering everyone. My dad was the biggest pacefist, but he would have done the same damn thing. And it breaks my heart that anyone could watch this show and see anything other than a father/daughter relationship, especially because I grew up seeing that same suspicious eye from strangers. It's a real shame. 

Edited March 14, 2023 by lasu

[Capricasix]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

His shootout through the hospital reminded me of nothing so much as the police station shootout in Terminator. Just mercilessly killing people without anything approaching remorse

Yes, that’s exactly what I thought while I was watching it. Especially the shots of the shotgun shells/cartridges (whatever) falling around his feet as he walked.

[Capricasix]

52 minutes ago, paramitch said:

Oh, bless you. This is the image I needed today after that very grim and sobering finale! Thank you for this. I especially love the fact that even giraffes are visibly helpless against the power of Pedro Pascal. (Let's face it, Pedro could probably cure real-world cordyceps with a smile or a dad joke.)

And that scene reminded me of Jurassic Park, when the kids and Sam Neill are up in the tree feeding the brachiosaurus (and then it sneezed on them 😄).

[paigow]

Ellie clearly expected to walk away from Salt Lake City AFTER donating blood -maybe a kidney- and become a sheep farmer.  

[mcree]

Marlene was Ellie's guardian, and she stashed her in a FEDRA orphanage to keep her safe. And it worked, up until the point Ellie played hooky and got bitten.

She doesn't think she'll make it just outside the wall, so she hands Ellie off to Joel and Tess. By luck and a bunch of dead fellow Fireflies, she miraculously makes it to Salt Lake City ahead of them. Maybe they drove around Kansas City instead of through it, or after Kathleen's group is wiped out.

Unaware of any feelings Joel has developed for Ellie, Marlene consents to surgery. Although Ellie is underage according to current legal standards, she is more of an emancipated minor, but also quite traumatized and probably not in the right mind to make such a decision.

The Fireflies does't ask, because Ellie might say no. Then what? You might consider this more humane.

After doing some tests, the surgery that Joel is warned about and they are caught trying to start is not necessarily fatal brain-removing surgery. Maybe this is exploratory, and that might happen later. But Joel doesn't know, nor does he care. The Fireflies certainly don't want Joel "the smuggler" hanging around. They want him to leave, and this is his one chance to get her out.

[Peace 47]

5 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

And if Marlene was so sure Ellie would consent, why not give her that choice?

I know your question is rhetorical and making the point that Marlene should have asked, but just to draw this out, Marlene saw no point of giving Ellie a choice because (1) no matter what Ellie said, they were going to do the surgery in the name of moral utilitarianism, and if the answer is irrelevant (other than possibly assuaging Marlene’s guilt), no point to asking the question and (2) Marlene convinced herself she was performing a mercy by letting this child go to sleep (forever) with no pain and no fear, a mercy no one gets in this world.  She probably thought that Ellie had nothing to make peace with, assuming that she had no loved ones.  But it was the coward’s way out:  not letting Ellie come to terms with her own imminent mortality only to save Marlene from the emotional damage of having to face that she was murdering a child.  

[theredhead77]

I had to re-watch the episode tonight. I was so stressed during my original watch not knowing if they would kill the baby (hey, it is HBO), and later about the survival of the giraffes. I loved this show and went into it without knowing anything about the source material beyond it being a video game. 

7 hours ago, izabella said:

It makes me wonder if they even woke her up and spoke to her at all.  Maybe they just put her under straight away.  Because that's such a great idea after giving someone a concussion.

That is a good point. Does the concussion even matter? Why bother waking her if the brain surgery will result in her death? I think Ellie would have consented to the surgery / death if she was asked but it would have been out of a sense of obligation. Joel lying to Ellie about there being additional survivors and no cure was the kind thing to do (and selfish, but mostly, kind).

It was hard watching Joel's rampage but I appreciated the scene was done with the look of a video game vs a mass shooting event. Good people sometimes have to do damned distasteful things.

[CooperTV]

5 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Ah, debating over whether Joel did the right thing or not

I don't think there's a debate. The show hoped it's gonna be a controversy, but with lack of the infected since episode 5 Joel's decision was a no-brainer.

[paramitch]

Upon rewatch, I was less conflicted on Joel's actions (although still finding them disturbing) because what Marlene does to Ellie is so heinous. Especially in not even giving her a choice.

When we think back to the pivotal moment in Episode 6, Joel is in the stable with Ellie. She shows up to leave with Tommy. Joel says that he's not sure he's the right option but "you deserve a choice." Ellie, of course, instantly says, "Let's go." And that's it.

Joel offered Ellie a choice. Joel started out treating Ellie like cargo and ends treating her like a person deserving of agency and respect. Marlene starts out viewing Ellie as cargo and ends still treating Ellie like a thing, not a person.

Honestly, Marlene is a pretty shitty person in the entire episode, honestly (so is the other Firefly with her!). She barely takes the baby from Anna, refuses to mercy kill Anna (and is seriously inches away from just leaving that poor woman there to turn), the guy doesn't even cover the baby's ears when she finally DOES shoots Ann, and then she just dumped Ellie at a FEDRA orphanage and didn't really do anything else until Ellie was bitten. 

Marlene's willingness to kill Ellie without even telling her what would happen, asking her permission, or giving her a choice is what makes Joel's decision the right one. Ellie wasn't even given a chance to know she was about to be drugged! She didn't know any of it. They just knocked out a 14 year-old kid, didn't let her say goodbye to her father figure, didn't ask her permission, and that was that.

And okay, sure, the life of a child would be instantly acceptable to many many people to save humanity. However, they could have at least TOLD Ellie (I think they should ASK her, but even just TELLING her would be the respectful minimum here -- instead of the cowardly nothing they actually did). 

But it's Marlene's casual comment that the doctor "thinks it could be a cure" that sends me into rageflames. THINKS? Thinks? Doesn't KNOW? Then maybe don't KILL your golden goose if you're not sure? Now -- granted-- I get that the science is secondary here, so we're just supposed to accept that hours after capturing Ellie, they are instantly going to kill her for a cure. But my question is -- why not give the line "He's sure it's the key to a cure" instead of "he thinks it could be a cure" there? Food for thought.

So -- I have swung around a bit and I don't think Joel is a villain at the end -- I think he's a complicated deeply scary and traumatized anti-hero who Ellie may eventually blame for his actions.

But yeah, Marlene can fuck right off. I felt bad for everyone who died, but I was also exasperated because it was a great example of "this could have gone an entirely different way if Marlene had treated Ellie and Joel with even a modicum of agency or respect, dammit."

12 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

That being said: I would have had Joel and Ellie stay at the hospital for a year. You can show the passage of time very well with small vigniettes of Ellie getting tested, her and Joel getting even closer as father and daughter, them getting friendly with the Fireflies, maybe playing games of soccer in a big room of the hospital and generally feeling save there. Then you pull the rug out from under them.

Great post. While I don't agree that the writing is actually bad in the episode or the final 15 minutes, I've been thinking a lot about that final 15 minutes of the show, and this scenario is basically what I would have wanted, as well. The episode was shorter than several previous episodes so they would have had that 10-15 minutes to do this.

Letting Joel and Ellie join the "Firefly family" would have added a ton of texture and absolutely raised the stakes. Let Marlene see the real and unshakable bond between Ellie and Joel. Let Ellie and Joel join this family of rebels. Let Ellie choose to sacrifice herself. I feel like that situation would have been a more satisfying exploration of "Who would you sacrifice to save your child?" etc.

9 hours ago, CooperTV said:

Well, maybe monsters that willing to take a child apart for a "vaccine" are the friends we made along the way. 

I wonder why Marlene treated Joel like shit and admitted she wanted Ellie dead for the "cure". Like, what did she expect to happen to her and her makeshift Order 731, even if we set aside Joel's parental bond to Ellie? Plus, the gall of that woman who gave Ellie to orphanage and forgot about her for 14 years to lecture Joel about how she's the only one to understand.

Beautifully said. My take on Marlene is that she thinks she's talking to cold, "dead inside" Joel from the QZ -- not deeply paternal current Joel. But I still feel she should have been quicker on the uptake and tried to be more compassionate with him. And of course, should have talked to Joel AND Ellie. Although I get the absolute fear and gut-wrench that Joel wakes up, Ellie's gone, they're already moving forward, etc.  And oh, man, I second you on Marlene being a total asshole in terms of actually caring for Anna's little girl. Ugh.

9 hours ago, saltylemon said:

I just realized the sound may have been muffled through the hospital shootout to put us more in Joel’s shoes as they had referenced more than once his loss of hearing.

What a beautiful detail! Really great observation -- I also agree with those who found the "muted" gunshots chilling because it is distancing Joel from what he is doing -- it feels like a horrible dream, almost.

8 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

I saw someone post somewhere that there is only one correct answer to:  who would you sacrifice to save the world?  “Yourself.”  Marlene and all her compatriots were morally wrong under that more basic view that throws out the capacity concerns.

Joel was put in an impossible situation by the story, and the incompatibility of the choice he had to make had been there all along.  Tess said “Save who you can save” but also “Set everything right.”   If he saves the one person he can, there is no hope of setting everything right.  I saw someone else post that Bill, Joel’s mirror, imparted one lesson to Joel (find one person worth saving and do it) but not the last lesson Bill learned (Bill painfully agreeing to love Frank the way he wanted to be loved, i.e., letting him go when the end of the road was reached).  That is, Joel saved Ellie but did not respect that she wouldn’t want him to love her so much that he would keep her from her purpose (save the world).  But that type of purpose is incompatible with who Joel is

Eloquent post, and I especially agree that your opening answer is the only right answer to that question. I'm also so happy that you mention Bill's letter, because Joel took that letter VERY much to heart, and part of what he does here is act out his agreement to Bill to be that protector of a loved one (Ellie) and keep that promise. 

The thing is, I think if Marlene had TALKED to Ellie and Joel, together, about what they wanted to do, then the ending could have been much different. Ellie may have been able to talk Joel into accepting that she was willing to die to save the world. (I still have issues with the basic situation -- that the doctor only said that it might work, in which case they had no goddamn business acting so quickly to kill this one person in the world who is so precious scientifically (not to mention underage -- why not try working with her blood and spinal fluid, protecting her, running trials, and allowing her to come of age and give  informed, adult, consent?)

8 hours ago, Starchild said:

I wonder what Tess would have done, if Joel died at the start and she were the one to bring Ellie here.

Part of me thinks that the woman who visibly cared about Ellie even after a day, who said "Save who you can save," would have understood his choices.

7 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

the discrepancy between the plot and what the protagonists gets to do when they are controlled by the player can be massive. Some scholars call it ludonarrative dissonance. This adaptation tried to be more subdued but in the end it's all "bad guys do bad stuff for very stupid reasons, go kill those losers ASAP!"

Yeah, this was a big part of the criticism of games like "Uncharted," where the hero is really funny and charming and seems like a good person -- but is a coldblooded killer through actual gameplay. Etc.

7 hours ago, conquistador said:

Like @paramitch wrote earlier, it is a variant of the Trolley problem. Or maybe it’s a variant of Sophie’s Choice. With a split second decision, Joel had to seal the fate for both humanity and Ellie and weigh their interests against eachother. Even if the odds are not 100%, even a small percentage chance of a successful vaccine becomes an enormous deal when you consider what’s at stake.

I really thought this was a dramatic and effective finale. However, the more I think about it, the more I wish it hadn't felt quite so contrived. Joel does terrible things, but he does them BECAUSE Marlene does terrible things first.

7 hours ago, CooperTV said:

Marlene didn't have any ethical lines, that's the main issue. She was willing to sacrifice a child but was begging for her own life. For some reason, she refused to understand that some people would take an issue with her murdering children. As I said, she's a hypocrite.

I agree. And that's what makes the final 15 minutes less conflicting than they should be for me, on rewatch. 

7 hours ago, Gillian Rosh said:

Perfectly said. I felt sick watching Joel kill everyone in his path at that hospital. But at the same time, I was thinking "He's got to save Ellie!" I've been sitting with that tension since the finale ended. 

Yeah, this. I mean, I'm not gonna lie -- I'm happy Joel saved Ellie. She deserved to live. But it hurt to watch.

6 hours ago, cardigirl said:

Apart from all of your other wonderful observations, this one is what I was thinking at the end of the show. Why didn't Marlene take Ellie instead of sending her with Joel and Tess?

Thank you for the kind words about my posts! Meanwhile, as to why, see below -- I forgot that originally, Joel was just supposed to take her to outside Boston.

5 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

Marlene and her group had just been in a firefight with Robert and his crew. She was suffering from a gut shot and the only survivor of her cell was missing an ear. They weren't sure that they'd make it out the QZ nevermind get to the meet up spot with the other fireflys.

These are all great points. I also forgot that originally, the "ask" was simply for Joel and Tess to take Ellie to just outside Boston -- a trip of just a few days. Marlene had no idea that Joel would eventually have to try to get her all the way to Denver -- and THEN all the way down to SLC (I think?). So I do get that Marlene would have had no idea that she could have taken Ellie with her.

5 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Ah, debating over whether Joel did the right thing or not... welcome to the world that The Last of Us players have been in for years, now. Is Joel the good guy or the bad guy?... Yes. 

Marlene was a coward. She could kill Ellie, but she couldn't look her in the eyes and ask her to die. That's where she went wrong, because if she'd been able to do that, then Ellie would have chosen and Joel would have had to accept it.

I think Joel was a bit too talkative about Sarah for my liking, but I do like seeing him more as he was before all this, and being able to think of Sarah with a smile on his face. 

I told a good friend that this situation reminds me so much of one of my favorite lines from one of my favorite movies (ZERO EFFECT): 

"There aren't any GOOD guys. You realize that, don't you? I mean, there aren't EVIL guys, and INNOCENT guys. It's just — it's just... It's just a bunch of guys!"

Meanwhile, the scene where they're climbing and Joel is being VERY uncharacteristically chatty I feel is deliberately uncomfortable. It's so well-acted by Pascal that Joel is just chattering compulsively about his daughter. But it works for me because his mind right now is filled with nothing else but Ellie and Sarah and what he did. And because Bella is incredibly talented and subtle, we can see Ellie gamely joining in and pacifying him, but for the first time this is where, to me, it feels like Ellie is older and Joel is younger. Ellie is wise enough to know that he's desperate to hide something here.

4 hours ago, izabella said:

The Jackson community was the only real sign of hope and renewal in this world.  I would have enjoyed more on how they are surviving and working things out among them.  With occasional visits with Florence and Marlon.

I would watch an entire show about Florence and Marlon! I'd be thrilled if we see them back next season even for a brief moment or two? I mean, they're a pretty short ride away from Jackson.

[aghst]

15 minutes ago, CooperTV said:

I don't think there's a debate. The show hoped it's gonna be a controversy, but with lack of the infected since episode 5 Joel's decision was a no-brainer.

Joel could have a valid complaint, that Marlene took the decision out of Ellie's hands -- as well as Joel's.

Marlene was telling him this is just the way it's going to be, get lost.

[Dev F]

8 hours ago, izabella said:

I'm imagining Ellie waking up after being knocked out and not knowing where Joel was - that would be the first and only thing she'd care about in that moment.  It makes me wonder if they even woke her up and spoke to her at all.  Maybe they just put her under straight away.  Because that's such a great idea after giving someone a concussion.

Ellie was never knocked out. She's conscious and shouting for Joel as the Firefly patrolman carries her away.

[conquistador]

2 hours ago, paramitch said:

But it's Marlene's casual comment that the doctor "thinks it could be a cure" that sends me into rageflames. THINKS? Thinks? Doesn't KNOW?

Firefly Doctor: My professional guesstimate is that we need to take the long knife and perform stabby stab against Ellie’s brain-brain

Marlene: Okay, seems legit

[MJ Frog]

On 3/13/2023 at 1:41 AM, Peace 47 said:

Okay, I’ve thought about it for another couple of hours, and I’ll say the same thing I said last week when Joel was “creatively” encouraging those dudes to give him a geography lesson.  Great job, Joel; no notes!  Okay, one note:  he shouldn’t have lied to Ellie about what he did.

Same. Unlike last week, I was totally okay with Joel going full Terminator. If anything made him the bad guy, it was the lie, taking Ellie's choice away from her and poisoning the relationship. Killing the village in order to save it. I desperately wanted him to come clean when Ellie asked him if he could promise he was telling the truth, knowing all the while that he wouldn't, couldn't.

[Constantinople]

The Fireflies, and Marlene in particular, believe that harvesting Ellie's brain will result in a cure, but that doesn't mean the viewers or Joel must be 100% convinced.

Quote

Nicky Santoro (Joe Pesci): The only trouble was, Piscano was a disaster. This guy could fuck up a cup of coffee - Casino

I feel the same way about the Fireflies. They haven't exactly accomplished anything.

Quote

Marlene: You fight for 20 years and you get nowhere, you’re not a rebellion. Just spray paint - Episode 1

Even Kathleen the Soccer Mom, widely derided by many viewers for her leadership, overthrew FEDRA in Kansas City. The Fireflies can't even smuggle someone out of the Boston QZ without screwing it up multiple times. Even Tomny, the patron saint of lost causes, gave up on them.

Which reminds me of another movie quote

Quote

Rhah: Taylor, I remember when you first came in here, telling me how much you admired the bastard.

Chris Taylor: I was wrong.

Rhah: Wrong? You ain't never been right, about nothing! - Platoon

So why should anyone who isn't a Firefly take their claims at face value?

Quote

Joel: We’ve heard this a million times. Vaccines, miracle cures. None of it works. Ever - Episode 2

Particularly since, as others have noted, even if the Fireflies could develop and mass produce a vaccine, the only way they could get people to take it would be by taking over QZs and other non-FEDRA settlements. A task at which the Fireflies have utterly failed.

Another reason for viewer skepticism is Marlene isn't the first person to suggest everything would be fine if they just followed her lead regardless of what that entailed. That didn't work out for Kathleen or David so why is it third time's the charm with Marlene?

This doesn't mean Marlene was wrong, only that Joel and the viewers can't be certain she was right.

And sometimes not knowing is more haunting than knowing.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Constantinople

[BasilSeal]

4 hours ago, paramitch said:

Let Ellie and Joel join this family of rebels. Let Ellie choose to sacrifice herself.

They can't let Ellie make a choice like this because the final scene is very much about  Joel lying to Ellie in order to  save her from the burden of guilt from knowing that she could have saved the entire world through personal sacrifice, but didn't. Joel not only physically saves her from imminent death at the hands of the surgeon, he also saves her from having to carry this mental burden of knowing that because she  is able to live her life, many others will die, like Sam and Riley already have.

on edit: Also, Joel tells her about his suicide attempt, and  also makes it clear that his relationship with her as a surrogate daughter is what has saved him, given him a purpose again, so she'd know that losing her would likely destroy Joel, so in making a choice she'd be choosing between saving the world and saving Joel.

Edited March 14, 2023 by BasilSeal

[BasilSeal]

another factor is the existence of tommy's commune settlement where there is the possibility of having a decent life, not just bare bones survival, like living in the QZ or in David's cannibal cult holiday camp.

The future without a cure is not hopeless at least for Ellie, even though it still will be for many others, she can have the sort of life that  Joel's daughter was denied, he can give that to her but in order to do that he has to lie to her and tell her that being the cure for everyone else wasn't a possibility, so that Ellie can move on with her life free from guilt.

[mrspidey]

12 hours ago, cardigirl said:

Apart from all of your other wonderful observations, this one is what I was thinking at the end of the show. Why didn't Marlene take Ellie instead of sending her with Joel and Tess?  Did she think she wouldn't make it herself, and Ellie had a better chance with those two? Or was she afraid of accidentally warning Ellie about what the cure would involve?

Joel's mission was to get Ellie to the meeting place outside the Boston QZ, where an armed group if Fireflies would have taken her (the armored truck and the dead guys they found) . That was it. 

It was never the plan for him to get her all the way to SLC. That was improvised.

Marlene was busy being shot in the gut and was in no condition to escort anyone through fungus-infested Boston.

Edit: Nevermind, didn't see that this was already answered.

Anyways, this was the first episode that did not quite click with me. From the arrival at the hospital to the end, the pacing felt way too fast for me. This part might have worked better with 5 to 10 more minutes to flesh everything out.  

 

Edited March 14, 2023 by mrspidey

[Johnny Dollar]

So some fans of the game were upset when 17-18 year Bella Ramsey was cast to play a 14 year old because they didn’t think she could pull off playing a younger teen yet praise 30+ year old Ashley Johnson (who I love) for doing the same thing? It’s funny how acting works. 

[DigitalCount]

7 hours ago, CooperTV said:

I don't think there's a debate. The show hoped it's gonna be a controversy, but with lack of the infected since episode 5 Joel's decision was a no-brainer.

Quite literally hey-o (here all week, try the mushrooms)

[circumvent]

I am still in shock that I enjoyed this show so much. Not my genre, got to it almost by accident and now I think it is probably the best performance by two main characters on TV today. The chemistry of those two is incredible.

The last scene in the previous episode was one of the best things I have ever seen. In this episode, the way Joel's carnage was filmed was pure art. 

I didn't know any of the actors and now I am in awe of them. I cannot even snark about the show. I don't really watch for the plot, for the story itself. I only watch for the moments those two share. 

 

[paramitch]

One quick addition:

One of the big early conversations here is where Ellie quietly tells Joel, "After this, I'll follow you anywhere you go." And we see Joel's quietly moved reaction.

Again, this solidifies that neither of them expected Ellie to DIE for the cure. Neither of them had the faintest clue or even imagined it.

[Capricasix]

Yes! That was such a powerful line, but so quietly spoken - no drama, no nothing. But it showed how far she’s come on their journey together, how far they both have.

I never buy TV seasons on iTunes, but it just came out yesterday and I’m soooo tempted - I watched all the episodes on my computer and I just want to be able to sit on my bed and watch them with my Apple TV 😄

[cardigirl]

Thanks to everyone reminding me why Marlene did not take Ellie west, but instead sent her with Joel and Tess. This is what happens to me when I have to watch a show spread out over nine weeks. 🤪 

 

[tennisgurl]

I guessed where this was going pretty quickly, but not so much in an annoyingly predictable way, but in an inevitably tragic, Shakespearian way. Joel has already lost too much, no way would he let them kill Ellie now, no matter how many people he had to kill or the greater implications for the world at large. He only barely survived losing one daughter, he cant handle losing another. This was a great, ridiculously intense way to end the season, I cant wait another two years! I need to know what is going to happen and where Joel and Ellie go from here right now! The whole show has been great, anchored by the natural chemistry between Pedro Pascal and Bella Ramsey, its been one of the few truly well done video game adaptations. 

The giraffe feeding scene was so sweet, everything looked so peaceful and gorgeous in the overgrown city with the giraffe hanging out there, that and the very real talk between Joel and Ellie about his almost suicide was a well needed calm before the storm. 

I get that the ethical dilemma being set up here is a variation of the needs of the many versus the needs of the few, can you sacrifice one person, a kid who has no idea what is going on, for the possible future of humanity, but I think the bigger issue is that the Fireflies are apparently pretty shitty at figuring out medical testing. Plan one is just cut her brain up? You would think they would try some other things, blood, spinal fluid, other things that are a lot harder to test on a dead person, before they tried to kill her after three seconds. I guess Marlene wanted everything to be quick without her or Joel putting up a fight, but this all could have been better, or at least maybe not ended with everyone dead, if they had been less villainous about this. What is their plan for this cure exactly? How will they distribute it? The group that seems to have the best ability to distribute a cure would be FEDRA, who are not exactly fans of theres, and most people are living scattered in different communities or on their own. Since its a "cure" and not a vaccine, will they have to catch a bunch of infected mold monsters to make them people again? How sure are they that this will even work or that this is how to find it? Like with a lot of things the Fireflies want to do, the intentions are good but they don't seem like they have really thought through how things will actually work. We blow stuff up and destroy FEDRA and...results? We cut Ellie's head open for the possibility of a cure and then...results? 

Come on Marlene, you couldn't think that Joel would take Ellie dying laying down, unless she thought that Joel was so cold to the world that he wouldn't care that the kid he traveled with for ages was going to die. What Joel did was understandable, especially as, like I said, I find their cure plan to be dubious at best and was possibly going to end with a kid being killed for no reason, but still pretty morally grey. Watching him just mow down countless people, especially at least one person who was surrendering, the unarmed doctor, and Marlene, who had already surrendered. Joel loves Ellie so much that he's willing to do anything to protect her, no matter how many people he has to kill for her. 

Cool seeing game Ellie show up as Ellie's mom, she also looks quite a lot like Bella Ramsey, I guessed right away that she was Ellie's mom, they look a lot alike. Like all of the one off characters, she did an amazing job at making a big impression in just a scene. 

Ellie absolutely knows that Joel is lying to her, even if she's letting it go for now. 

[Danny Franks]

6 hours ago, Constantinople said:

The Fireflies, and Marlene in particular, believe that harvesting Ellie's brain will result in a cure, but that doesn't mean the viewers or Joel must be 100% convinced.

Joel didn't doubt Marlene. He never asked if she was sure or scoffed at her claim. He just said "find someone else."

He believed her, he just didn't care. People like to rationalise Joel's reaction by doubting the science (as if we need to have the science nailed down in a show where a fungus can turn people into mindless zombies just because of global warming) or calling the Fireflies hasty or saying that the Infected aren't that big a problem anyway.

Joel isn't a scientist. He was a contractor who then spent twenty years as a murderous smuggler. He doesn't know what the Fireflies can and can't do, and it doesn't matter to him. Because they're not doing it to Ellie.

As viewers we can doubt Marlene's plan and the idea of a cure, but Joel never did.

2 hours ago, paramitch said:

One of the big early conversations here is where Ellie quietly tells Joel, "After this, I'll follow you anywhere you go." And we see Joel's quietly moved reaction.

I don't think she says that in the game, but there's a line instead where Joel says, "well I ain't leaving without you," after Ellie says they'll find the Fireflies and finish it.  But in the show he'd been showing her all episode that he was going where she was going, so it was perhaps considered redundant.

Listening to the Official Podcast, Ashley Johnson had a really cool perspective on the final scene:

They asked her if she considered Ellie's "okay" to be 'okay, I believe you' or 'okay, I'm accepting your lie.' She said that, when she shot that scene for the game, her interpretation of it was, 'okay. You lied and we're done. I love you, but now I know I can't trust you.'

Maybe it was a bit of all of those.

[iMonrey]

Quote

One of the first things she said to Joel was that no one else could have gotten Ellie through, referencing that all of the Fireflies were protecting her, Marlene, and she almost got killed.

Except, they did get through. Plus Joel and Tess were only supposed to get Ellie to a nearby location. Why did Marlene go all the way to Colorado? Did she get to wherever Ellie was supposed to be taken outside Boston, realize she wasn't there, and make the same bet as Joel that they needed to go to Wyoming? Did she get to Wyoming, realize that hospital was wrecked, and then make her way to Colorado? Did she run into Tommy and his community first?

It seems like it's too convenient for Marlene to have been at the Colorado location. The story needed her to be there for the emotional punch but it doesn't really make a lot of sense IMO.

[Danny Franks]

42 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Except, they did get through. Plus Joel and Tess were only supposed to get Ellie to a nearby location. Why did Marlene go all the way to Colorado? Did she get to wherever Ellie was supposed to be taken outside Boston, realize she wasn't there, and make the same bet as Joel that they needed to go to Wyoming? Did she get to Wyoming, realize that hospital was wrecked, and then make her way to Colorado? Did she run into Tommy and his community first?

It seems like it's too convenient for Marlene to have been at the Colorado location. The story needed her to be there for the emotional punch but it doesn't really make a lot of sense IMO.

They were supposed to take Ellie to a Firefly base in Boston. They got there and the base was dead. Marlene was, at that point in time, bleeding from a gunshot wound.

Tess and Joel were the ones who decided to go further - on to Bill and Frank's and then to look for Tommy. There was never an understanding from Marlene that Joel would take Ellie to Salt Lake City, but she presumably went there to tell their science people all she knew about Ellie, in the hope it might help their work on a cure. For all Marlene knew, Ellie was gone forever, which is why she was so grateful when Joel suddenly pitched up with her.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Danny Franks

[Dev F]

32 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Joel didn't doubt Marlene. He never asked if she was sure or scoffed at her claim. He just said "find someone else."

He believed her, he just didn't care.

Yep, this. If Joel thought the Fireflies' plan was bullshit, it would make everything so much easier for him. He could throw it back in Marlene's face that her plan was a pipe dream and she was killing a little girl for nothing. He could just tell Ellie that the Firefly doctors turned out to be murderous quacks and he he had to rescue her from them. The fact that he doesn't do either of those things makes it pretty clear that he, at least, thinks their cure was legit.

And ultimately that's all that matters. Whether the cure would actually work is just a property of the made-up scientific rules of a soft sci-fi universe; whether Joel believes it would work speaks to his values and choices as one of the two central characters of the series.

Though I do find it interesting that one of the small but significant changes from the game was to make Marlene's explanation of how the cure would work slightly less handwavy. The backstory about Ellie's mom being infected at the moment of her birth, and the explanation that Ellie has a benign version of cordyceps in her brain are both inventions of the series. It makes it much clearer that the Fireflies understand the mechanism of her immunity and are killing her to extract and replicate that mechanism, whereas in the game it's easier to read as them just planning to dig around in her brain in the hopes of finding something.

A change that's less helpful is the fact that Ellie is conscious when she's brought into the hospital, especially since the final scenes seem to indicate that she didn't even know the doctors were putting her under. ("What drugs?") It raises the question of what they told her when they took her in, how she felt being reunited with Marlene and separated from Joel, and what she might've learned that directly contradicts Joel's They found a bunch of other immune people lie.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Dev F

[cambridgeguy]

55 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

This was a great, ridiculously intense way to end the season, I cant wait another two years! I need to know what is going to happen and where Joel and Ellie go from here right now!

There's an easy way to know, go to youtube and watch a walkthrough of part 2. Yes, they'll likely deviate from the game in places, but it seems unlikely they'll change the major events.

[mledawn]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

Joel didn't doubt Marlene. He never asked if she was sure or scoffed at her claim. He just said "find someone else."

He believed her, he just didn't care. People like to rationalise Joel's reaction by doubting the science (as if we need to have the science nailed down in a show where a fungus can turn people into mindless zombies just because of global warming) or calling the Fireflies hasty or saying that the Infected aren't that big a problem anyway.

Joel isn't a scientist. He was a contractor who then spent twenty years as a murderous smuggler. He doesn't know what the Fireflies can and can't do, and it doesn't matter to him. Because they're not doing it to Ellie.

As viewers we can doubt Marlene's plan and the idea of a cure, but Joel never did.

Yes, this.

[Hanahope]

i'm not sure Joel saying "find someone else" means he completely believed the fireflies' doctor had a surefire cure.  he's already said that there have been numerous prior vaccine and cure attempts and nothing worked.  he has no idea of the circumstances of Ellie's birth, how she truly is unique and Marlene did a terrible job of explaining it to him, or how with only a few hours of tests (if any) the doctor's only recourse is to kill Ellie by removing it from her brain.  

marlene fucked it all up because she thought joel didn't care about ellie and when it was clear he did, she dismissed his concern (both that he didn't want ellie to die, at least not needlessly, and that ellie should have been given the choice), instead of addressing it.

[bethy]

1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

Joel didn't doubt Marlene. He never asked if she was sure or scoffed at her claim. He just said "find someone else."

He believed her, he just didn't care.

I don't think that Joel was in a place to weigh the likelihood of the success of the plan for Ellie one way or another. I don't think he thought that the plan was sure to produce a cure and didn't care; I think he had just regained consciousness from being clubbed in the head, been told that the child he'd been traveling with and come to love like a daughter was - at that moment - about to be killed, and then was given no option but to abandon her.

I would agree that Joel didn't care, but I don't think it was because he came to any rational conclusion about the hope for a cure or the truthfulness of Marlene's assertions. I think he was a trapped animal whose child was in danger and he went berzerk. 

[jrzy]

4 hours ago, paramitch said:

One quick addition:

One of the big early conversations here is where Ellie quietly tells Joel, "After this, I'll follow you anywhere you go." And we see Joel's quietly moved reaction.

Again, this solidifies that neither of them expected Ellie to DIE for the cure. Neither of them had the faintest clue or even imagined it.

Exactly right,  and that scene was so beautifully done. 

[MJ Frog]

12 hours ago, paramitch said:

Meanwhile, the scene where they're climbing and Joel is being VERY uncharacteristically chatty I feel is deliberately uncomfortable. It's so well-acted by Pascal that Joel is just chattering compulsively about his daughter. But it works for me because his mind right now is filled with nothing else but Ellie and Sarah and what he did. And because Bella is incredibly talented and subtle, we can see Ellie gamely joining in and pacifying him, but for the first time this is where, to me, it feels like Ellie is older and Joel is younger. Ellie is wise enough to know that he's desperate to hide something here.

Great observation. And just like that, the dynamic changes, as so often happens in relationships of all kinds. The love is still there, but it's different, because the people are now different, at least in the way they relate to each other. An interesting phenomenon, and often a little sad.

Particularly here, where I felt a real sense of loss. They will never again be those two who had come to trust each other so completely while crossing the country together. That's now reduced to just being the opening phase of their relationship, which will move on to whatever comes next.

[Peace 47]

17 hours ago, lasu said:

 

If we accept that Ellie is young enough to need a parent, we have to accept that she is young enough to need parenting, which sometimes includes the parent making the choice for the child. And then Joel told his daughter a fairy tale so she can sleep at night.

 

I posted earlier that I think Joel should have told her the truth about what he did, although your point here is the very good reason why he shouldn’t have.  At that moment, he has to chose between (1) setting up the dominoes to break her trust and (2) deciding that the truth will only cause her more pain concerning a situation that now can’t be changed.  Like all his choices in the episode, it is one with no good answer, so I can’t fault choosing between 2 bad choices, but this is why I think he should have told her.

Trust between them has been a theme throughout the season.  Ellie calls him “too honest” when he tells her that what they are about to see on the way to Bill and Frank’s (the mass grave) won’t physically hurt her.  When she asks about Outbreak Day, he fills her, and she thanks him for his honesty after her school covered up what happened.  He asks her if she trusts him when he is trying to formulate a path to get her to safety in KC, and she nods yes.  She tells him in Wyoming that he could have told her anything (about the dam, I think?) and she would have believed him (because she trusts him).  Maria warns Ellie to be careful about in whom she places her trust.

Ellie has suffered unimaginable trauma and is seriously depressed, so I would question her ability to take on the additional burden, but honesty between them has been such a sustaining force in their relationship, and if Joel had told her that Marlene was going to kill her without Ellie’s consent or knowledge, that regardless of what he suspects Ellie would have wanted, Joel couldn’t let that happen to her after how hard she fought to keep him and herself alive when they were just making plans together for when this was all over, that this is his human failing, that he would do anything in his power to protect her, I think Ellie would have been furious, but as it is, the dishonesty will fester.

 

[mcree]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

It seems like it's too convenient for Marlene to have been at the Colorado location. The story needed her to be there for the emotional punch but it doesn't really make a lot of sense IMO.

Marlene knows the lab/hospital is in SLC. As an active Firefly leader, she has up-to-date info, whereas ex-Firefly Tommy’s location in Colorado is old. Joel and Tess were supposed to meet in Boston (outside the walled Quarantine Zone) with the group that would take Ellie to SLC, or at least start the journey with actual Fireflies.

Once Marlene was able to regroup and leave Boston, they went directly to SLC. They need just slightly better luck to get there before Joel and Ellie. There’s not much point in trying to actually follow them. She would want to get there as soon as possible in any case; they’re not sightseeing.

It is convenient, but not contrived in any way.

[Nashville]

 

22 hours ago, Dev F said:

But it's similar to the other examples in that the issues with it are matters of scientific accuracy external to the story. Within the story—which, again, is already centered around the scientifically preposterous notion of an insect pathogen evolving in a single step to create a race of human fungus zombies with echolocation abilities and interconnected self-propelling mycelia—there's nothing to suggest that the cure is anything but the real deal.

Actually, the reverse is true: absent any kind of diagnostic analysis/testing,  there’s zero evidentiary support to suggest their “cure” is anything but wishful thinking.

 

[shelley1234]

The way this story was being told, I knew that the season would end with Joel doing whatever was necessary to save Ellie....like he was unable to do with Sarah.  Joel was a cold blooded killer to get to her and keep her safe and if he could go back and be that guy with Sarah, he would without a doubt.  

The idea that they were going to kill Ellie and not even tell her.  Not cool.  Joel telling her lies about what really happened and what he did.  Also not cool.  Ellie is a child but she's lived the life of an adult for a long time now and deserves to know the truth and make that choice...or at least know the choice Joel made.  Joel just can't lose her even if it would be what she would want.  

The angle I didn't see coming was that Joel's hearing loss was due to a failed suicide attempt.  It doesn't surprise me since going on without Sarah had to be unbearable, I just didn't see it coming. 

This episode flew by.  I was surprised when the credits rolled by.   I didn't expect to like and be as invested in the show as I am.   I hope Bella and Pedro win all the awards....it would be well deserved.  And now I will just sulk until there is more show to watch.  

Edited March 14, 2023 by shelley1234
Grammar

[CooperTV]

2 hours ago, Dev F said:

If Joel thought the Fireflies' plan was bullshit, it would make everything so much easier for him.

I do think that was very easy for him, after the point of the Fireflies attacked them in the middle of the street, knocked them out, and immediately after declared, "Guess what, our doctor likes to experiment on people without their consent, and he thinks he will be able to cut Ellie open and grow a substance from her brain! And if you disagree, you're dead, how 'bout that?".

I mean, I doubt a random person with conscience would agree to such a proposal, but at least Joel has the skills to prevent crimes against humanity from happening.

Of course we cannot forget that it is deeply personal for Joel, that he loves Ellie as his daughter, that some bad people tried to take her away several times at this point, so his paternal reaction to known terrorists trying to kill her is also quite understandable.

I still can't figure out why Marlene was so confrontational to Joel this episode, and why would she told him the truth about Ellie being prepared for death, yet promised he would be shot if he tried to take Ellie away. How those threats were supposed to go in her head?

[Cornhusker12]

Just popping in here to say that all of these posts about how "Marlene had no plan for anything" or "I have no idea what Marlene was thinking" are giving me flashbacks to one of my OG previously.tv forum shows, Pretty Little Liars. Anyone else who read/posted about that wacky show knows what I'm talking about. Haha

[Dev F]

2 hours ago, CooperTV said:

I do think that was very easy for him, after the point of the Fireflies attacked them in the middle of the street, knocked them out, and immediately after declared, "Guess what, our doctor likes to experiment on people without their consent, and he thinks he will be able to cut Ellie open and grow a substance from her brain! And if you disagree, you're dead, how 'bout that?".

If that's the case, then why would Joel lie to Ellie about it? That lie now dangles like a sword over the most important relationship in his life, and if he thought his choice was self-evidently correct, he wouldn't have needed to hang it there. That's the main thing I'm referring to when I say disbelieving Marlene would've made his choice so much easier.

Quote

Of course we cannot forget that it is deeply personal for Joel, that he loves Ellie as his daughter, that some bad people tried to take her away several times at this point, so his paternal reaction to known terrorists trying to kill her is also quite understandable.

But if we already know that, what does it add to the story to see it dramatized again? Like I said back at the beginning of the discussion, if the Fireflies are just murdering a young girl for no good reason because they're blinded by misplaced faith, it turns the finale into just a rehash of the previous episode.

To me the fact that Joel makes a deliberate choice—to save Ellie even if it dooms the world—is what gives this episode something new to say and makes it interesting and worthwhile. I'm pretty much always going to privilege a reading that tells us something new about the main characters and/or takes them to a new place over a reading that places the weight somewhere else. Why should the climax of Joel and Ellie's entire story for the season be primarily a referendum on, say, whether Marlene has bad communication skills?

Edited March 14, 2023 by Dev F

[cambridgeguy]

13 minutes ago, Dev F said:

To me the fact that Joel makes a deliberate choice—to save Ellie even if it dooms to world—is what gives this episode something new to say and makes it interesting and worthwhile. I'm pretty much always going to privilege a reading that tells us something new about the main characters and/or takes them to a new place over a reading that places the weight somewhere else. Why should the climax of Joel and Ellie's entire story for the season be primarily a referendum on, say, whether Marlene has bad communication skills?

Exactly - his reaction to Marlene telling him her plans wasn't to point out how nonsensical it would be to kill Ellie, or rant about giving her a choice, or the impossibility of manufacturing/distributing the cure, or anything like that.  Instead he said find someone else, which strongly implies he'd be OK with someone who wasn't his surrogate daughter being chopped up for the good of humanity. 

Maybe there's a scientist living in Jackson who can explain all of the reasons why their plan was crap, but in Joel's mind he massacred the Fireflies and doomed humanity because he couldn't bear to lose Ellie.  A part of him also knows Ellie would not be OK with that choice, hence the lie about it.  It would be kind of anticlimatic if he told her and she ended up giving him a big hug.

[Peace 47]

24 minutes ago, CooperTV said:

I still can't figure out why Marlene was so confrontational to Joel this episode, and why would she told him the truth about Ellie being prepared for death, yet promised he would be shot if he tried to take Ellie away. How those threats were supposed to go in her head?

She told him the truth at first because it never remotely occurred to her that Joel would care that Ellie had to die.  She only knows post-apocalypse Joel, who was a hardened smuggler and who hated her for roping Tommy into her cause, but was someone with whom she could do cold, brutal business.  When she then saw him getting agitated about Ellie’s whereabouts and condition, she had to change tactics.  I think she wanted to show him out instead of kill him right there because she did (as she said) feel indebted to him for getting Ellie there, but she started in with the threats just to get his compliance and make him go.

6 minutes ago, Dev F said:

To me the fact that Joel makes a deliberate choice—to save Ellie even if it dooms to world—is what gives this episode something new to say and makes it interesting and worthwhile.

From my vantage point, there are two paths to critique the ending, each equally interesting:  how well the creators established the clarity of the scenario that you wrote (save Ellie even though it seemingly forever forecloses a 100% certain cure), and then, what was the right choice in-story for Joel to have made in light of the setup the creators actually established.  If the creators aren’t ironclad on the first part, people will bleed those points into their analysis of the second point.

It’s probably easier for a moral utilitarian to condemn Joel’s choice if the cure were 100% certain to work, but maybe harder if the odds were less than … pick a number:  50%, 20%, 5%?). Marlene used the word “could” be a cure; the nurses worried about sufficient power so how good were their facilities; infected can still kill you via swarm and dismemberment before you are cured of a bite; people are the real threat in the show, etc., etc. But I get that Joel was not making any of those calculations, and to him, it was irrelevant (although I have to think concussion + extreme duress + ticking bomb to Ellie’s imminent murder = Joel’s only possible decision under the circumstances).
 

43 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

in Joel's mind he massacred the Fireflies and doomed humanity because he couldn't bear to lose Ellie. 

I don’t know why a small part of me emotionally recoils from it being phrased in that way or Joel’s choice being phrased as the selfish one.  Maybe it is because I think in some ways, it is irrelevant to Joel whether he lives or dies so long as Ellie is safe and protected, so he’s not doing it for himself, he’s doing it for the life he thinks she deserves to live?  This tenacious little girl who saved his live multiple times?  But I get it, he definitely cannot live without her being alive, so that is selfish.

[Starchild]

6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Except, they did get through. Plus Joel and Tess were only supposed to get Ellie to a nearby location. Why did Marlene go all the way to Colorado? Did she get to wherever Ellie was supposed to be taken outside Boston, realize she wasn't there, and make the same bet as Joel that they needed to go to Wyoming? Did she get to Wyoming, realize that hospital was wrecked, and then make her way to Colorado? Did she run into Tommy and his community first?

It seems like it's too convenient for Marlene to have been at the Colorado location. The story needed her to be there for the emotional punch but it doesn't really make a lot of sense IMO.

She may have always been planning to go on to the hospital; this was the Fireflies' most important mission after all.

It's also possible that she wasn't, but when she found out that things went bad in Boston, and that Joel didn't come back with Ellie, she realized he would be trying to take up the mission that the dead Fireflies couldn't, and figured she'd meet him at the end of the journey.

And I figure she had access to vehicles when Joel didn't. Even if she didn't, she knew exactly where she was going, would plan the most direct route, and didn't have side quests, I mean unintentional deadly encounters, every few miles to slow her down. Not surprised she'd get there ahead of them.

[Constantinople]

6 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Joel didn't doubt Marlene. He never asked if she was sure or scoffed at her claim. He just said "find someone else."

He believed her, he just didn't care. People like to rationalise Joel's reaction by doubting the science (as if we need to have the science nailed down in a show where a fungus can turn people into mindless zombies just because of global warming) or calling the Fireflies hasty or saying that the Infected aren't that big a problem anyway.

Joel isn't a scientist.

And I don't recall seeing Marlene's university qualifications in any relevant scientific field.

All we know is Marlene is the failed leader of a failed group whose 20 years of effort amounted in her own words to nothing more than spray paint. Now she sees an opportunity to be something more than spray paint.

People in those circumstances have been known to be overoptimistic.

This doesn't mean Joel thinks the prospective cure is bullshit, just that he doesn't think it's a guarantee.

Even the surgeon who was going to remove Ellie's brain doesn't think it's a guarantee.

Quote

He thinks it could be a cure, Joel - Marlene talking about the surgeon

"Could be", not "will be".

So the best assurance Marlene and Dr. Mengele can give is that it "could" work, which means it could also be for nothing.

Also, and it's most likely that the setting of the episode is just a coincidence, but Joel may have a vague memory of the last time there was a revolutionary scientific breakthrough reported from Salt Lake City that would change everything about how we would live.

Quote

University of Utah N-Fusion Press Release

'SIMPLE EXPERIMENT' RESULTS IN SUSTAINED N-FUSION AT ROOM TEMPERATURE FOR FIRST TIME

Breakthrough process has potential to provide inexhaustible source of energy

SALT LAKE CITY - Two scientists have successfully created a sustained nuclear fusion reaction at room temperature in a chemistry laboratory at the University of Utah. The breakthrough means the world may someday rely on fusion for a clean virtually inexhaustible source of energy.
...
This document was embargoed for release on Thursday, March 23, 1989 at 1:00 p.m. Mountain Standard Time.

https://newenergytimes.com/v2/reports/UniversityOfUtahPressRelease.shtml

It turned out to be nothing.

[paramitch]

I guess my main POV at this point is, that while I get what the showrunners were trying to present, to me the final 10 minutes here are slightly flawed because I feel that there is -- on their part -- a false equivalency embedded in what we got.

To me, Mazin & Druckmann want to present this "hero becomes the villain" aspect of showing us the potential toxicity of love, in which Joel makes this incredibly brutal decision to save the child he loves, even if it dooms humanity.

I just don't think they've made the case that this is true. The idea that Ellie and Joel were captured, Ellie was tested, and the science was so complete that they are willing to kill her and remove her brain within a few hours and before Joel even wakes up does seem a little silly and unbelievable to me. I mean, if they'd been there a WEEK, the science would have felt rushed (I've already talked about my agreement with others that we should have had a "one year passes" montage).

The fact that Joel has to deal with this so suddenly, instantly, and post-concussion? (Really?) I can handwave the sloppy science, sure, but then we also have Marlene behaving in this unnecessarily brutal way to Joel -- again -- to make sure Joel makes this choice. Some of those manipulations from a writing standpoint feel a bit clumsy and obvious to me -- they don't even tell Ellie what is about to happen? Don't let her say goodbye to Joel or vice versa? Etc.? Don't give her a choice?

So in the end I still end up on Joel's side. The bad science plus the insanity of killing the one immune person within hours of meeting her? I just don't see it. Then add in the fact that they do not even give Ellie a choice -- when we know from her own words here that she would have agreed.

Joel has every right to save Ellie. I remain horrified at his ruthlessness, but at the same time -- those people know about her now. They would never stop coming after her. I understand why he does what he does. One of my friends -- an incredibly kind, humanistic person in real life -- calmly noted that Joel was wrong not to kill the nurses. (But of course he couldn't, because there needs to be a witness to this to set up season 2.)

I think another slight flaw here is that Marlene just comes across as a consistently cruel, tone-deaf asshole here. In the opening scene, she is pretty callous to her dying friend, barely seems to want to touch the baby, and I know it's supposed to seem like she's too upset to mercy-kill Anna, but to me she just seems like kind of a jerk about it. No kind last word to Anna? Nothing? And then she just shoves Ellie into a FEDRA orphanage. Then we get the end scenes and Marlene is just seriously openly cruel to Joel about "We are killing Ellie even as we speak" and to me every scene with Marlene just reinforces that she is the Worst, and that she has ALWAYS let Ellie down.

So in retrospect and upon reflection now it feels a little manufactured and heavy-handed to me. Just a bit.

I love the show, was knocked out by this episode, and it's led to some terrific conversations both here and with other friends and family. I think they accomplished what they wanted. I just think they were so focused on the end point that they missed out on the opportunity to add a more complex layer of believability to the outcome. It's a little clumsily done.

Edited March 14, 2023 by paramitch
oops

[Starchild]

57 minutes ago, paramitch said:

Then add in the fact that they do not even give Ellie a choice -- when we know from her own words here that she would have agreed.

Would she, though, if it was presented to her the way it was presented to Joel?

Because Ellie told Joel this couldn't all be for nothing.

But:

58 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Even the surgeon who was going to remove Ellie's brain doesn't think it's a guarantee.

"Could be", not "will be".

So the best assurance Marlene and Dr. Mengele can give is that it "could" work, which means it could also be for nothing.

This might be something else that was going through Joel's mind when he decided to scorch the earth.

[shelley1234]

8 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

Joel didn't doubt Marlene. He never asked if she was sure or scoffed at her claim. He just said "find someone else."

He believed her, he just didn't care. 

I agree that Joel didn't care, but I also don't think that means he accepted and believed the science.  

All he heard is that Ellie is on a surgical table and they are about to kill her.  The "find someone else" is that she is not going to die for the cause under his watch.  

Edited March 14, 2023 by shelley1234

[Peace 47]

48 minutes ago, paramitch said:

I love the show, was knocked out by this episode, and it's led to some terrific conversations both here and with other friends and family. I think they accomplished what they wanted. I just think they were so focused on the end point that they missed out on the opportunity to add a more complex layer of believability to the outcome. It's a little clumsily done.

I agree with all of this.   Where I find myself pushing back against the narrative a bit is the implication that Joel is the villain of the story for everyone he faces off against (Alec the Impaler in episode 6, Marlene and all the dead Fireflies here).   Like the story is really wanting me to be shocked and appalled at what love specifically makes Joel do to other people who aren’t family.  But every single one of these people were the aggressors against Joel and/or Ellie (including the doctor who brought a knife to a gun fight, as someone noted upthread), and he didn’t kill the two nurses who weren’t.

Henry’s choice back in episode 5 to get another man killed to obtain medication for Sam is the more monstrous lapse of ethics, in my opinion.  There, I can be shocked and appalled by what Henry did (sacrificing an entirely innocent life with no quarrel or aggression against Henry or his brother), even if I’m similar to Joel and can ultimately understand why he did it.

[slowpoked]

I have mixed feelings about the finale. I probably need to watch it again.

I guess my pressing concern is, did Ellie ever get the swiss knife that her mother had left for her? Last I remember, it was with Joel. I was expecting Joel would hand it over to her in the last few scenes.