S01.E05: Endure and Survive

[Whimsy]

Quote

While attempting to evade the rebels, Joel and Ellie cross paths with the most wanted man in Kansas City. Kathleen continues her hunt.

Original airdate 2/12/23

[AimingforYoko]

Just a heads up, you can stream this starting at 9pm Friday, February 10th on HBO Max. I imagine so you don't have to chose between the show and the Super Bowl.

[Kate47]

Ellie bonding with Sam is the best. I thought Sam and Henry were father and son at first, and then in the daytime you see how young he really is.

The show does a good job of illustrating the shades of grey; Joel's comment in the last episode that he was bait once and has been baited and then Henry's story of collaboration. 

Kathleen scares me tbh.

[AimingforYoko]

Well...fuck. I was hoping Henry and Sam would last at least a couple more eps. That look on Henry's face after he killed Sam just gutted me.

25 minutes ago, Kate47 said:

Kathleen scares me tbh.

Well, not any more.

[Kate47]

I really should watch the whole episode before commenting. I just get excited. 

Edited February 11, 2023 by Kate47

[Constantinople]

It would be ironic if Ellie died from a bacterial or viral infection after cutting her hand in a futile attempt to save Sam with her magic blood.

 

Don't think it will go that way though.

[peridot]

The flashback to when the rebels rose up against FEDRA was awful.  What got to me was the body being dragged behind a tank, and it looked like the body was stabbed with twenty knives.  When it showed the group of collaborators in the cell, I can't remember if there were any kids there.  I knew that Kathleen was damaged, but seeing all those people go into the cell to execute the collaborators was a bit shocking, too.

I'm not sure how Sam's leukemia was cured, especially if they were using old medicine.  I'm glad they showed a bit more of Kathleen.  She knew she wasn't good, but kept pressing forward anyway.  How could her henchman keep following her, especially since Kathleen was wasting limited resources on finding one guy?

I was unfortunately spoiled about the monster coming from underground from a HBO ad on Facebook.  I wasn't expecting for hundreds of zombies to jump out of the sinkhole.  The contortionist infected were creepy.

I hated that Sam was bitten after all they went through to escape.  I was scared that Henry would have let Sam tear into Ellie just so he wouldn't lose his brother.  I'm not surprised that he couldn't live with the choices he made and the loss of his brother.

[wanderingstar]

Kathleen just had to stop Henry, Sam, and Ellie. Her quest for vengeance ultimately did her in.

My heart hurt for Henry and Sam (loved Lamar Johnson's performance as Henry). I gotta stop getting attached to characters on this show not named Joel and Ellie.

[paigow]

That perimeter was CTU quality... One legally blind sniper at the only way out of town. How did all those infected get trapped underground? It cannot be part of the tunnel network.

[snickers]

So I've been watching this show from the beginning, but didn't get a chance to comment on any episodes until today.  I was led to believe that episode 3 was supposed to be the "tear jerk" episode and while it was sad, I thought those two lived a good life together (16 years right?).

To me-this was the tear jerk episode 😭

I had a feeling one of them gotten bitten, when I saw it was Sam, i was like, "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" *think Darth Vader in episode 3*

The kid who played Sam was so cute and a good actor I thought, plus while I haven't really been that wowed by Bella R as Ellie (I don't play the game I just found her to be annoying in this) I thought she was great with Sam, seemed to come out of her shell and it was nice for both of them to have a friend

And of course it got cut short 😡

I just loved their bond, the minute he died you saw her wall of defense go back up-and when she wrote the, "I'm sorry" on his erase pad thing, I JUST LOST IT

man, this show is just TOO GOOD

Edited February 11, 2023 by snickers

[DigitalCount]

During the scene where the boys are under the car, I was briefly worried by what appeared to be an Infected getting to them, but then it seemed like they were both okay. Of course that couldn't be the case. I really loved the rapport that Ellie and Sam had. She could have been such a great big sister to him. Despite ending roughly the same way as Bill and Frank, this hurt a lot more since they were so young.

[MJ Frog]

Jesus wept. THAT was tense. Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.

[CooperTV]

The entire episode (apart from Kathleen) was great, although its developments weren't surprising for me, as I know the game's plot. The acting from everyone was top notch.

Re: the Kathleen thing: what can I say, vindication! She did go to see the manager after all. Bad thing her Lieutenant also get killed but I guess that's what you get for enabling a complete psycho.

 

[Helena Dax]

I was surprised when no one asked Sam and Henry if they had been bitten when they were under the car. I guess the writers wanted a big (and tragic) reveal. Poor kid.

And wtf was that monster? A particularly huge guy covered in fungus or a new kind of infected? And do we know how the infected are called? It can't be just "infected". Fungies? Wereshrooms? I don't know if I've missed a slang term for them.

[Haleth]

This show is going to kill me.  First Tess, then Bill and Frank (although that was more poignant than devastating), and now Henry and Sam.  Note to self: do not get attached to anyone.

Yikes, the folks in downtown KC have no idea what's coming for them.  That giant monster was scary.

[meira.hand]

2 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

And wtf was that monster? A particularly huge guy covered in fungus or a new kind of infected? And do we know how the infected are called? It can't be just "infected". Fungies? Wereshrooms? I don't know if I've missed a slang term for them.

Try this: https://www.elle.com/culture/movies-tv/a42538495/the-last-of-us-infected-fungus-zombies-explained/

[paramitch]

Oh, my God, this was so hard to watch. Little Sam was so adorable (and I loved that he was Deaf, and played by a Deaf actor). So every time he smiled, or giggled, or played with Ellie, I died a little inside, because this is not a world where people are allowed to be happy for very long. Except our darling Bill and Frank (RIP, sniffle).

Every scene with Henry and Sam was so nuanced and once again, we have a duo who mirrors Ellie and Joel in a new way -- Henry willing (understandably) to do anything to save little Sam. And I mean, who can blame him? So much innocence still there -- he still loves superheroes and dreams and draws in bright colors! And you could see Ellie relaxing into that -- bonding so fast with Sam, remembering her innocence, picking up his ASL so fast, laughing and playing with him. It hurt so much (I was too terrified to enjoy it, fearing total tragedy any second) but I loved every minute of it. And Bella Ramsey and Kievonn Woodward (as Sam) were just lovely to watch together, as was Lamar Johnson as Henry.

But oh, God.

I feel like one of the subtexts for this show has been the quest to live, not just to survive, beautifully encapsulated by Bill and Frank's story (and how it echoed Joel completely shutting down after his daughter's death, etc.). How do we hold onto our humanity after the unthinkable? Which is why I was so moved by Bill and Frank -- because Frank, the survivor, who lost 9 of his companions and everything else before finding Bill -- was the one still willing to make friends, paint pictures, water the flowers, make a life (and, for that matter, lean in to kiss Bill). Frank was -- in this world -- a miracle of humanity and warmth. And he brought Bill (and Tess and even Joel) into that circle of joy and love and "paying attention to things."

But on the sadder side... Another subtext I think we're seeing is that violence is just as infectious as cordyceps, and that in a world where everyone would kill for the one person they love -- what happens when their goals conflict? Is it okay that Henry caused the death of Kathleen's brother to save Sam? It's a tough question. I don't blame him for a MOMENT for saving his sweet little brother (possibly the cutest little boy in the world). But causing the death of someone he describes as a "great man," who maybe could have saved KC and changed the face of every event we saw--? is that forgivable?

It's interesting to consider. By giving up Kathleen's "Great man" brother, Henry can be argued to have doomed the entire city. Were the survivors great people? Eeeurrrgh. What we saw is pretty horrifying.

BUT. What if Kathleen's brother would have been a calmer, more just voice, as Henry and Kathleen implied? A "great man" who could have saved the city and implemented a more compassionate, human world?

And because Henry turned in Kathleen's brother, Kathleen turns into a monster, and encourages everyone AROUND her to be monsters. Maybe those "celebrations" would not have been so grotesque and cruel after the defeat of FEDRA if the brother had lived. Maybe there would not have been the mass executions, the mutilations, the disregard for humanity. Maybe her brother would have tried to implement some order and healing and logic, hopefully catching that horrifying "moving" patch of infected below that building, and (for instance) working with his people to clear the area, bring down that building, and then watch and manage the tunnels, etc.

But that didn't happen. Kathleen's brother died, Kathleen survived and became a monster, and her insistence on revenge doomed her entire city.

And killed Sam (and Henry) anyway.

But all of that is macro -- the big picture. In the small picture, it is unthinkable to me that Henry doesn't try to save Sam. Who wouldn't??

So it feels to me like the show is really trying to put us into feeling these awful scenarios, feeling all sides. And for me this ties into our glimpses of Ellie's potential sadism or toughness (experimenting on the trapped Infected before killing him, playing with the gun in the mirror, idolizing Joel because of the moment he beat the guard to death in front of her).

To me, the potential tragedy of TLOU is that the world is turning Ellie and Joel into very specific people -- people they were not necessarily meant to be. They are having to make the hard choices. It's notable that Henry could not live with himself after doing that exact thing (and it broke my fricking heart even worse than Sam's death).

This is why I felt a slight relief when Joel genuinely tried to spare Kathleen's guard in the high sniper/watcher point, telling him to just not make the move and wait it out. It showed that there is still some humanity left in Joel (probably more than he wants). But of course the guard refused. Sigh.

As a gamer, I loved the final big action sequence -- so tense, with Joel and Ellie separated -- and Joel having to try to save her, one gunshot at a time! It beautifully, weirdly managed to feel very "gamelike" while also being tense and terrifying in a superbly cinematic action-horror sequence way as well. And the Infected, the Clickers, and that fricking huge thing were fantastic and so scary and unreal (the Clicker in the car with Ellie was so creepy!).

But then -- little Sam. I was not okay in the final 5 minutes, especially after little Sam's "IF YOU TURN INTO A MONSTER ARE YOU STILL YOU INSIDE?" And then Ellie trying to naively save him with her blood (and FALLING ASLEEP!). I knew the next morning would be bad, and it was, but poor Henry shooting Sam, then himself, was worse.

It helps a little that Ellie and Joel are a team now, undeniably (His "Do you trust me?" and her absolute trust. And the way Ellie could feel Joel protecting her from afar as she ran through those streets). But they are also wounded and hurt and grieving. Again. Ellie's "I'M SORRY" at their graves (and I loved the detail the Joel cared enough to bury them) broke me.

I am not okay. But what another beautifully done episode of TV.

20 hours ago, peridot said:

The flashback to when the rebels rose up against FEDRA was awful.  What got to me was the body being dragged behind a tank, and it looked like the body was stabbed with twenty knives.  When it showed the group of collaborators in the cell, I can't remember if there were any kids there.  I knew that Kathleen was damaged, but seeing all those people go into the cell to execute the collaborators was a bit shocking, too.

The most depressing thing about that whole sequence was how much it made me think of our current world, and how yes, I could actually very easily envision that kind of thing even in today's non-apocalypse. As the show is pointing out frequently, many many people are just one slight twist of the wheel away from driving right off the cliff of empathy and humanity.

19 hours ago, snickers said:

I just loved their bond, the minute he died you saw her wall of defense go back up-and when she wrote the, "I'm sorry" on his erase pad thing, I JUST LOST IT

Yeah, that was the second moment that broke me. Ellie was so close to some kind of healing, but this really wounded and damaged her so much all over again.

18 hours ago, DigitalCount said:

During the scene where the boys are under the car, I was briefly worried by what appeared to be an Infected getting to them, but then it seemed like they were both okay. Of course that couldn't be the case.

I admit that when we saw the Infected biting at them under the car I was skeptical that they had not been bitten. 

16 hours ago, MJ Frog said:

Jesus wept. THAT was tense. Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue.

I love this quote so much (AIRPLANE!). Also, I swear to God I thought of it so often watching Season 1 of "White Lotus" lately. (Those of you who know, you know.)

11 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

I was surprised when no one asked Sam and Henry if they had been bitten when they were under the car. 

I can kind of forgive Joel for thinking they would've told him if they'd been bitten. My logical side did wonder why they don't do at least a cursory check of everyone's bodies (at least exposed extremities) after every big encounter like this. I mean, wouldn't you? The worst part is, due to adrenaline, many of us might not always know right away if we'd been bitten (I mean, imagine -- one fungusy tooth-graze, and we're toast).

Another terrific episode. The show is killing it, and I absolutely believe it's due to Craig Mazin ("Chernobyl") who is elevating Druckmann to a whole other level here.

Edited February 12, 2023 by paramitch
fixed Sam's actor's name! (ack)

[Capricasix]

Another fantastic episode. I’m enjoying seeing Joel open up a little bit. While he’s probably never going to wear his heart on his sleeve, it’s good to see that he’s a little more understanding of people’s different motivations, eg. why Henry did what he did for Sam. 
 

I was holding my breath while they were walking through the tunnels, just waiting for something to burst through the walls or up out of the floor! And when the armored vehicle fell into the hole that opened up in the ground, and then the Clickers/bloaty dude all came swarming out, that was proper terrifying 😬😬😬 I’m really glad I didn’t watch it last night before I went to bed 😄

I don’t know why, but I didn’t realize that the resisters had only taken over the city such a short time ago. I thought they’d been in control for a long time.

Ellie telling Sam that she was scared of ending up alone…her tough-kid veneer was slipping a little. And then Henry and Sam at the end - heartbreaking 😢

I had to laugh at the scene when they were in the conference room - the way Joel was standing with his hands on his hips reminded me of a certain bounty hunter 😄 (I tried to add a screenshot but the file was too big)

[Capricasix]

1 hour ago, paramitch said:

The most depressing thing about that whole sequence was how much it made me think of our current world, and how yes, I could actually very easily envision that kind of thing even in today's non-apocalypse. As the show is pointing out frequently, many many people are just one slight twist of the wheel away from driving right off the cliff of empathy and humanity.

Yes, yes, exactly! When the resisters were torturing and executing the FEDRA members, I couldn’t help thinking that this is what some people in certain segments of our society say they want to do to doctors, scientists, journalists, politicians because of their imagined complicity, and even conspiracy, in the real-life pandemic (which those parts of society still call a hoax). And when we saw the one resister vehicle that had “We The People” spray-painted on the side, some Canadian viewers might recognize that also as the motto of a certain QAnon-adjacent “Queen of Canada”. Probably just a coincidence, but unsettling nonetheless.

[go4luca]

30 minutes ago, Capricasix said:

I was holding my breath while they were walking through the tunnels, just waiting for something to burst through the walls or up out of the floor! And when the armored vehicle fell into the hole that opened up in the ground, and then the Clickers/bloaty dude all came swarming out, that was proper terrifying 😬😬😬 I’m really glad I didn’t watch it last night before I went to bed 😄

I did watch last night.  That was intense.  I'm still recovering.

Made me look at my cordyceps coffee powder a wee bit differently this morning. 😬

[Lady Whistleup]

Whoa. Was not prepared emotionally for this episode. 

I am also one of the people who did not cry during episode 3. In the end, Frank and Bill had a happy life together. They went out the way they wanted to go out.

However, Sam dying and Henry then shooting himself ... awful. Also, the way Ellie wrote all those messages to Sam was heartbreaking. When I saw she wrote "I'm sorry" as her last message to Sam, I lost it. 

[shelley1234]

This show.   Man.  It keeps introducing amazing characters and then they don't make it out of the episode.   RIP Henry and Sam.  

I loved that Ellie had a friend in Sam and vice versa.  And so sad that she lost him.  And poor Henry not being able to handle what he had to do.  Killed me.  Just brutal. 

Can't say I am sad to see how Kathleen went.  Karma ya know?  

I think it is also clear that Joel will now do anything to protect Ellie.  Him perched up with his rifle and his main focus was making sure she was okay and made it through the zombie attack. She's not cargo.  She's family.  

[MSterling]

4 hours ago, paramitch said:

Another terrific episode. The show is killing it, and I absolutely believe it's due to Craig Mazin ("Chernobyl") who is elevating Druckmann to a whole other level here.

In the podcasts when they talk about changes like making Sam deaf and the mycelium network, Druckmann says he wishes he'd known or thought about those things for the games. Mazin and Druckmann seem to be enthusiastic making the story work and expand for the translation to tv so it's really enjoyable to listen to the podcasts.

[Capricasix]

Yes, in the “Inside the Episode” feature, Neil Druckmann says that making Sam deaf was such a good idea that he was upset he himself didn’t think of it 😄

I really like the podcast too. I could listen to Troy Baker read Wikipedia (since phone books aren’t a thing any more!) 😄

Edited February 11, 2023 by Capricasix
forgot an important word

[conquistador]

This episode hit hard. It’s tough to have to see violence against a child. The psychological impact on Henry was equally devastating. As far as I can remember, we haven’t seen any infected children, making it all the more gruesome when Sam turned.

I hadn’t really warmed up to Ellie’s actress prior to this episode, but I think she shone here. Very nice acting.

One thing I have really enjoyed from this series from the very first episode, are the environments and set-pieces. Especially with how worn dirty and worn down everything has become. The conference room (with proper 2003 aestethic) really felt like people had worked there at one point. Same with the underground make-shift Kindergarten - it was a locale that told a story.

[paigow]

4 minutes ago, conquistador said:

One thing I have really enjoyed from this series from the very first episode, are the environments and set-pieces. Especially with how worn dirty and worn down everything has become. 

That motel was too clean...

[conquistador]

14 minutes ago, paigow said:

That motel was too clean...

Haha, that might be true. I was probably too engrossed by the acting to notice. Speaking of which, Lamar Johnson as Henry did an incredible job.

[Capricasix]

I thought I recognized him from somewhere, but I couldn’t think where, so I looked him up on Wikipedia. Found out that he’s Canadian, born in Toronto, and that he’s also a dancer. That twigged something in my brain, and after a google, I realized that I remembered him as a young teen on a hip-hop dancing show that aired on the public television channel in Ontario in the late 2000s!

[Dev F]

The most interesting moment to me was when Ellie, Henry, and Sam are running in a panic away the infected, and suddenly Ellie notices the open car window. She immediately hones in on it and starts reenacting Joel's advice to her when they were under fire in the previous episode: "You see that hole? . . . When I say go, you crawl to that wall, and you squeeze through, and you don't come out until I say, okay? . . . You stay down, you stay low, you stay quiet."

Not only that, but Joel notices what she's doing and starts clearing the way for her with his sniper rifle. I thought that was such a great, subtle way to illustrate the strengthening bond between them.

[Lady Whistleup]

One thing that got me: when Ellie wrote to Sam that she was afraid of dying alone. Sam did not die alone -- he had Ellie and Henry with him. 

[Capricasix]

19 minutes ago, Dev F said:

The most interesting moment to me was when Ellie, Henry, and Sam are running in a panic away the infected, and suddenly Ellie notices the open car window. She immediately hones in on it and starts reenacting Joel's advice to her when they were under fire in the previous episode: "You see that hole? . . . When I say go, you crawl to that wall, and you squeeze through, and you don't come out until I say, okay? . . . You stay down, you stay low, you stay quiet."

Not only that, but Joel notices what she's doing and starts clearing the way for her with his sniper rifle. I thought that was such a great, subtle way to illustrate the strengthening bond between them.

For a 56-year-old guy, he’s got great aim 😄

[thuganomics85]

I knew going in that we were going to be getting our first glimpse of a Bloater, which was cool and all, but it's going to be Creepy Child Clicker that will probably haunt my dreams.  Thanks, show!

The opening scene was brutal to watch.  As I figured, it really sounds like FEDRA were monsters and committed many, many atrocities, but the rebellion really did just stoop to their level once they won and I sadly suspect that would probably happen in real life too.  They didn't want to win in order to make the world a better place for those who followed: they just wanted their pound of flesh and make them suffer back.  Understandable on a basic level, but it really doesn't help anything in the long run and I suspect everyone is still going to end up dead or worse years from now.

In particular, Kathleen clearly was someone who let her grief drive her to a point of no return, but part of me also wonders if that darkness was always there.  I could understand her anger and lust for revenge, but they way she coldly told Henry that kids die all the time makes me wonder if she always harbored sociopathic tendencies.  If anything, maybe it was Michael/her brother what was keeping her in check.  Melanie Lynskey did great work here.

At least Jeffery Pierce got to get a cool (if very brutal) death here!

Both of the actors playing Henry and Sam did an excellent job here and played both both Pedro Pascal and Bella Ramsey extremely well.  Had a feeling they weren't going to be around long term, but part of me hoped they'd at least stick around for a few episodes.  But, alas, The Last of Us takes no prisoners.  Sam gets bitten and turned, Henry is forced to kill him, and then Henry turns the gun on himself.  A tragic end for both of these young men and I imagine it will haunt Joel and Ellie going forward.

Only issue I did have was that I question if someone like Joel wouldn't make damn sure no one got bitten as soon as they made it to safety, but I can roll with it being a case of him letting his guard down thanks to his bond with all of them and picking the wrong time to not cautious.  As for Ellie, I think she always knew deep down that what she was doing was reckless, but I can totally buy that she wanted to honor her promise to Sam and dared to hope that her blood actually could cure him.  Again, I suspect this will just harden both of the characters going forward.

Didn't realize until the Inside the Episode bit that Terry Notary is doing the choreography for this show and the stunt team, which explains so much.  This guy is good! (along with Plant of the Apes, he also did the likes of Kong: Skull Island, the Avenger Films, and the Hobbit trilogy.)  Of course, finding this out makes me think that if they ever introduce an infected that can speak, he is so going to be played by Andy Serkis!

Another excellent episode!  Glad to catch it early but it now means the wait for the next one will be longer, dammit!

[cardigirl]

I don't want to say I loved this episode, because it made me so sad, but I LOVED THIS EPISODE.  The acting, the scene setting, all of it was excellent. I was on the edge of my seat the entire episode. Loved this episode more than episode three, so much more tragic! 
The world building that is going on in this show is so great. I'm old and didn't play any video games other than Mario, so I'm surprised that the source material for this show is a video game. Amazing.

Big round of applause! 

(Also glad that Kathleen met her end at the hands of a clicker. Very satisfying.)
 

Edited February 12, 2023 by cardigirl

[Quickbeam]

Great episode. I’m an old ASL interpreter and was glad they used a Deaf actor and decent sign language. Too many shows think they can have people wave their hands around as “good enough”. I really wanted Henry and Sam to hang around so…sad. 
 

[conquistador]

9 hours ago, paramitch said:

I can kind of forgive Joel for thinking they would've told him if they'd been bitten. My logical side did wonder why they don't do at least a cursory check of everyone's bodies (at least exposed extremities) after every big encounter like this. I mean, wouldn't you?

 

50 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

Only issue I did have was that I question if someone like Joel wouldn't make damn sure no one got bitten as soon as they made it to safety, but I can roll with it being a case of him letting his guard down thanks to his bond with all of them and picking the wrong time to not cautious. 

Yes - the hallmark of somebody who survives more than two decades in their post-apocalyptic society ought to be never letting the guard down. Sam knew he had been bitten - I think we have to assume that for whatever reason he was afraid of telling the grown-ups.

[Demian]

8 hours ago, Capricasix said:

I don’t know why, but I didn’t realize that the resisters had only taken over the city such a short time ago. I thought they’d been in control for a long time.

Just finished watching this episode, and the fact that the civilian takeover of Kansas City leads almost instantly to Kansas City's destruction has me wondering what this show is saying (or trying to say).

[Constantinople]

15 minutes ago, Demian said:

Just finished watching this episode, and the fact that the civilian takeover of Kansas City leads almost instantly to Kansas City's destruction has me wondering what this show is saying (or trying to say).

You can't spell "A friend" without FEDRA

[paigow]

5 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

You can't spell "A friend" without FEDRA

24 minutes ago, Demian said:

Just finished watching this episode, and the fact that the civilian takeover of Kansas City leads almost instantly to Kansas City's destruction has me wondering what this show is saying (or trying to say).

HYDRA defeated SHIELD by convincing society to exchange Freedom for Security... K.C. regained its freedom...

[braziliangirl]

34 minutes ago, Demian said:

Just finished watching this episode, and the fact that the civilian takeover of Kansas City leads almost instantly to Kansas City's destruction has me wondering what this show is saying (or trying to say).

I took it as "vengeance doesn't pay off". They've forgotten about the infected because in KC the civilians enemy was FEDRA/informants. Kathleen goal was killng Henry.  She and Perry did see signs of infected people on the ground and she said her priority wasn't that. If she wasn't so blinded by revenge things could've been different (or not). In the end she wasn't worried about the rest of her community. Her speech to Henry was hypocritical. 

I was wondering why would Kathleen was allowed to visit her brother in prison. Seemed weird to me. 

Edited February 12, 2023 by braziliangirl

[Capricasix]

11 minutes ago, paigow said:

HYDRA defeated SHIELD by convincing society to exchange Freedom for Security... K.C. regained its freedom...

Reminds me of a line in The Mandalorian’s second season episode The Believer - Valin Hess says to Mando and Mayfeld, “Everybody thinks they want freedom, but what they really want is order.”

[Wicked]

Episode 3 was a sweet love story, this episode was an emotional gut punch from start to finish

[kay1864]

Damn, those 2003 soccer balls were really well-made. Still usable after 20 years!

Edited February 12, 2023 by kay1864

[CooperTV]

1 hour ago, braziliangirl said:

I was wondering why would Kathleen was allowed to visit her brother in prison. Seemed weird to me. 

FEDRA, apparently, cared enough about a child's life (in a practical and cynical sense of the word, of course), they provided his brother with really rare cancer medicine in exchange for his "work". Unlike grief-stricken Kathleen, who didn't care about children, as long as her petty revenge plot was in motion. I mean, children, especially in this types of societies, are literal future of their citizens. It's kind of symbolic, really, that Kathleen first kills an obstetrician, starts to use all her men-power to find unarmed man and his little brother with a disability, and then say "whatever, kids die". Truly, karma is a harsh mistress.

[Glade]

Wow, this was riveting and powerful.  Humanity, in every sense of the word is dying out, with dire consequences.  That monster emerging was horrifically symbolic.  I really wanted Sam and Henry to make it. 

[Anela]

Damn it, I've been extremely depressed, and this just gutted me. I started crying when the kids were talking, and sobbing when Sam turned, and Henry had to shoot him, then couldn't believe he'd done that. I can't stop crying. 

I wasn't sad to see Kathleen go, or those who shot the prisoners. 

[aghst]

Not sure that I buy people behaving this way.

First who are FEDRA suppose to be, former military?  US soldiers are not pristine, there have been cases of them brutalizing or massacring civilians but those cases are relatively few — at least the ones which are general knowledge.

But soldiers generally are taught discipline and following the military code.  Now if they’re former police, it might be different.

KC FEDRA apparently committed all kinds of crimes to stir up so much hate that they’d desecrate their corpses.

Kathleen may have led the rebellion but people motivated to defeat oppression must surely see that she’s just as much a bloodthirsty criminal as FEDRA was.  Ordering the summary execution of those people and they carry it out without question?

Did mostly sociopaths survive the fungus apocalypse?

As far as the episode, they set up some scenes of rare serenity just to undermine them with carnage and then ultimately heartbreak.

It’s an unrelentingly bleak world.  Joel may have done bad things but this world is full of monsters, both living and dead.  You would hope they’re going through all this for something, not just be the last survivors.

[Anela]

On 2/10/2023 at 10:39 PM, peridot said:

The flashback to when the rebels rose up against FEDRA was awful.  What got to me was the body being dragged behind a tank, and it looked like the body was stabbed with twenty knives.  When it showed the group of collaborators in the cell, I can't remember if there were any kids there.  I knew that Kathleen was damaged, but seeing all those people go into the cell to execute the collaborators was a bit shocking, too.

I'm not sure how Sam's leukemia was cured, especially if they were using old medicine.  I'm glad they showed a bit more of Kathleen.  She knew she wasn't good, but kept pressing forward anyway.  How could her henchman keep following her, especially since Kathleen was wasting limited resources on finding one guy?

I was unfortunately spoiled about the monster coming from underground from a HBO ad on Facebook.  I wasn't expecting for hundreds of zombies to jump out of the sinkhole.  The contortionist infected were creepy.

I hated that Sam was bitten after all they went through to escape.  I was scared that Henry would have let Sam tear into Ellie just so he wouldn't lose his brother.  I'm not surprised that he couldn't live with the choices he made and the loss of his brother.

I was spoiled on the massive monster, too, but not on the rest. That was a nightmare through and through. I was wondering if that was the monster that Tess and Joel said didn't exist, but I can't remember what that was. 

[Anela]

8 hours ago, conquistador said:

This episode hit hard. It’s tough to have to see violence against a child. The psychological impact on Henry was equally devastating. As far as I can remember, we haven’t seen any infected children, making it all the more gruesome when Sam turned.

I hadn’t really warmed up to Ellie’s actress prior to this episode, but I think she shone here. Very nice acting.

One thing I have really enjoyed from this series from the very first episode, are the environments and set-pieces. Especially with how worn dirty and worn down everything has become. The conference room (with proper 2003 aestethic) really felt like people had worked there at one point. Same with the underground make-shift Kindergarten - it was a locale that told a story.

One thing I liked in the last episode, was Joel pointing out that the gas didn't last long, because it was so old. So, he had to keep siphoning more, to put into their car.

I figured the uprising in that city, was new, but a lot sooner than ten days, because they were still looking for collaborators. 

Kathleen and her "children die all the time". What a horrific thing to say, and tell others. Adults are supposed to go before the kids, and her brother knew what he was getting into. 

Okay, time for me to put on Gilmore Girls. I'm glad I didn't watch this in the morning. Sobbing is out of the way, I can sleep it off, but I need something lighter first. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, aghst said:

Not sure that I buy people behaving this way.

First who are FEDRA suppose to be, former military?  US soldiers are not pristine, there have been cases of them brutalizing or massacring civilians but those cases are relatively few — at least the ones which are general knowledge.

But soldiers generally are taught discipline and following the military code.  Now if they’re former police, it might be different.

KC FEDRA apparently committed all kinds of crimes to stir up so much hate that they’d desecrate their corpses.

Kathleen may have led the rebellion but people motivated to defeat oppression must surely see that she’s just as much a bloodthirsty criminal as FEDRA was.  Ordering the summary execution of those people and they carry it out without question?

Did mostly sociopaths survive the fungus apocalypse?

i don't see why it is tough to envision people acting the way FEDRA is said to have been acting. We know military people in the real world have committed all manner of atrocities since time began -- raping, enslaving, torturing, murdering of civilians, etc. And that was always when humans were at the top of the food chain and never faced an existential threat. I have no problem imagining that with resources scarce and humans having their backs to the wall, a fascist regime would take advantage and and impose order at a great cost to personal liberty.

Similarly, has there ever been a revolution in history where none of the revolutionaries adopted the tactics of the oppressors or rationalize their acts of violence/hypocrisy?

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 hours ago, CooperTV said:

FEDRA, apparently, cared enough about a child's life (in a practical and cynical sense of the word, of course), they provided his brother with really rare cancer medicine in exchange for his "work". 

My guess is  FEDRA could not have given two shits about Sam's life. It was just hot for Kathleen's brother and would have dangled anything to get him. I guess it 's possible that FEDRA has a ton of the drug in stock, or that it doesn't really consider it that valuable even if it has just a small amount -- how many people are going to be dying of leukemia post apocalypse, and why would FEDRA maintain resources to save those people?