S05.E02: The System

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Prince Philip offers his support to a grieving family member. Keen to snatch a scoop, a tabloid journalist approaches Diana about a tell-all book.

Dropping on Wednesday, November 9, 2022.

[Roseanna]

That was supposed to be a scandal? Can't people of different age and sex be friends?

Edited November 9, 2022 by Roseanna
correcting meaning

[Helena Dax]

I loved Philip in this episode. He was very nice to his godson's wife and I think he honestly tried to help Diana. Personally I never bought the narrative of her as a 100% victim and if it's true that she helped Norton with the book, either she was already looking for revenge or she was unbelievably naive, meaning that book would have never solved anything. 

I wonder what was going on with that bird Philip kept seeing.

[Roseanna]

20 minutes ago, Helena Dax said:

Personally I never bought the narrative of her as a 100% victim and if it's true that she helped Norton with the book, either she was already looking for revenge or she was unbelievably naive, meaning that book would have never solved anything.

You mean Andrew Morton whose book was Diana: Her True Story in Her Own Words.

Generally, memories are untrustworthy. People create a narrative about the past from the present situation (f.ex. after the marriage fails, there never was anything good in it). And of course nobody can't know what the other person thinks and plans.   

[PRgal]

This season is within my living memory but I don’t really remember if there was in fact a scandal regarding Phillip and his godson’s wife.  Was it only within the UK that this was actually talked about?  Of course I may have been too young to really have been paying attention. I do remember the book, however.  Google tells me the book was published in 1990 - I was 10 then.  

[dubbel zout]

The tiara Diana wore at the end (the Cambridge Lover's Knot) was placed terribly. She never wore a tiara that badly.

3 hours ago, PRgal said:

if there was in fact a scandal regarding Phillip and his godson’s wife

I think there was a very strong whisper network about it. Philip always had an eye for pretty women.

[peridot]

It was sad that the curly haired girl from the previous episode died. I wonder if it was true that the husband was never around?  The wife seemed pretty isolated in her grief.  I didn't know carriage racing was a thing.  It seemed like something from centuries ago.

It seemed odd that a Polish journalist was interviewing Philip about it.  I would have that that international reporters only reported on significant news.  I had no idea what the bird symbolized for Philip.

That doctor friend of Diana must have been in good shape!  It seemed like the bike ride to Diana's place was long, and he did it multiple times for the interview questions.  It was pretty creepy to hear that someone was listening/recording Diana's phone conversations.

When they showed that Morton's apartment was vandalized, I thought that meant the thieves stole his novel but I guess it was just a warning from Royal thugs. 

Did Philip really think that Diana would back down after his warnings?

Edited November 10, 2022 by peridot

[Lady Whistleup]

I really loved this episode. It did what the Crown does best: study how there's elements of manipulation and half-truths in every memory. Diana's tapes were Exhibit A of that. Was she sincere? Absolutely. Was she also being manipulative and selective with how she told her story? 100%. The actress nailed Diana's voice and mannerisms and even the super-posh accent. 

I also love Crown episodes that show a softer side to Philip. I feel like he's often portrayed as brusque and frosty. I love the scenes with Penny and his memories of Cecilie. 

I also love his talk with Diana. Again, love the tough-tender Philip. I feel like Jonathan Pryce is already making Philip a rounder character than we've previously seen.

[Straycat80]

We see a softer side of Phillip in this episode but he’s still very much the tough guy when it comes to defending and protecting the queen and the monarchy. 
Diana definitely cooperated with Morton on that book. I remember that time, there was all kinds of scandal going on with Diana/Charles/Camilla. I think this was around time scandal started happening with Andrew and Fergie too but apparently they are not going to touch on any of that.

The actress playing Diana is spot on with the voice and mannerisms, she even had that painfully thin physique Diana had at the time. I also remember seeing her in photos wearing that Harvard sweatshirt which was popular at that time. 
Was the bird suppose to symbolize the spirit of the little  girl who passed away? 

Edited November 11, 2022 by Straycat80

[anniebird]

I don’t like anything about this actor’s Diana. The only thing the show got right was the haircut. As someone else said, she’s too tall and really overdoes the mannerisms particularly the tilted head and downcast eyes. Maybe that’s not a fair criticism though because I really disliked that in the real Diana too.

Edited November 11, 2022 by anniebird

[Blakeston]

Diana really was extremely selfish here. Did she ever stop to think how her tween son would react to finding out that she threw herself down the stairs when she was pregnant with him?

She was completely caught up in her own victimization.

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Diana really was extremely selfish here. Did she ever stop to think how her tween son would react to finding out that she threw herself down the stairs when she was pregnant with him?

She was completely caught up in her own victimization.

Selfish, yes, but probably she couldn't help herself because of her mental problems. Just as she  could help to use methods as her " cries for help"  that could only alienate Charles and his family more. One must remember that there was no such knowledge of f.ex. bulimia as today. Besides, Elizabeth and Philip were prodicts of the age where people were supposed "to keep calm and carry on" (because of that they couldn't stand Charles's constant self-pity, either).

[PeterPirate]

Phillip was a mostly-positive figure in this episode, although "To the grave" was unnecessary and somewhat ghoulish.  

I think the bird represented He who knows everything about everybody (according to Elizabeth).  This show has hinted at Phillip having dalliances but has never shown it outright, and the bird was a subtle reminder from On High to stay true to his wedding vows.  I think the larger message was that people grow apart over time.  It's not like Elizabeth made the effort to go on those carriage rides.  

The interactions between Elizabeth and Phillip seemed more cordial during the Coleman years.  The real-life couple seemed to be genuinely comfortable with each other.  

Edited November 12, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Spartan Girl]

I too liked the softer side of Phillip.

Look, Diana did a lot of questionable things. But I get why she did the book: her friend told her that sources “close to the prince” were already trying to make her look bad, and she was already paranoid. You can accuse her of posting the victim all you want, but she was speaking her truth.

And her friend asking “why didn’t you tell us?” Well, gee, people aren’t exactly forthcoming when it comes to suicide attempts and eating disorder. It’s not like complaining about your crappy marriage

Edited November 11, 2022 by Spartan Girl

[Snazzy Daisy]

I didn't catch any romantic vibe between PP and Penny, maybe the show opted to be subtle on this.

The deepest truths are best read between the lines...

Quote

"Just be creative. You can break as many rules as you like. You can do whatever you want. You can make whatever arrangements you need to find your own happiness. As long as you remember the one condition. The one rule. You remain loyal to your husband and loyal to this family in public. Don’t rock the boat. Ever. To the grave.”

- Prince Phillip's advice to Diana

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Selfish, yes, but probably she couldn't help herself because of her mental problems. Just as she  could help to use methods as her " cries for help"  that could only alienate Charles and his family more. One must remember that there was no such knowledge of f.ex. bulimia as today. Besides, Elizabeth and Philip were prodicts of the age where people were supposed "to keep calm and carry on" (because of that they couldn't stand Charles's constant self-pity, either).

Was there really so much less knowledge about bulimia then? It was a pretty big topic for teenagers in the 80s. I feel like when that came out the general reaction was that yeah, seemed like something Diana could easily have.

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Look, Diana did a lot of questionable things. But I get why she did the book: her friend told her that sources “close to the prince” were already trying to make her look bad, and she was already paranoid. You can accuse her of posting the victim all you want, but she was speaking her truth.

Yeah, it's all too easy to imagine her thinking she was just striking a preemptive blow in the world she was living in. She and Charles seemed so ill-suited they were incapable of just working out an arrangment to make their lives more pleasant.

[ahpny]

On 11/9/2022 at 8:43 PM, dubbel zout said:

Philip always had an eye for pretty women

He expressly admitted this to Diana, and confessed that that was at least partly why he liked her. His admission was surprisingly complementary, gracious and honest. But why didn't Diana ask Philip if he'd given the same "we have to preserve the system" talk to Charles, who, at least according to Andrew Morton, was also indirectly feeding dirt, through his friends, to an author to publish his "side" of the story? Loyalty only works best when it's reciprocated. 

[jeansheridan]

I think Elizabeth as Diana is very good. Her charm at the hospital, the drama of the clandestine tapes, the tension with Philip. Love it.

Carriage driving is a big thing, even in the US. And I appreciated a lesson in how the reins work! Imagine controlling four horses with two hands! Amazing.

[tennisgurl]

I really liked seeing this softer side of Philip, I think that Jonathan Pryce is doing a great job with him. He can so often be so frosty and harsh so its nice to see him having fun and being empathetic. Even his scene with Diana, while a reprimand, was obviously out of a place of caring and tough love. Philip has always related to Diana more than the rest of the royals, probably due to his own turbulent childhood and issues finding a place in royal life when he was young, so I do think he meant well, even if its not what Diana wanted to hear. 

Its too bad they don't want to touch Andrew, the scandals with Fergie were just starting around this time I believe and that was a very big deal and yet another massive headache for the crown. 

The actress playing Diana did a great job during the interview, she really felt like Diana, especially in her inflections. I can understand why she did the interview, she was worried that Charles was going to drag her all over the press, which he already does in their regular life, and she wanted to tell her side of the story. Obviously some of that was manipulation based on making herself look good, and Diana was certainly an expert at using the press to make herself look like the victim and like the hero, but nothing she said was untrue. 

[ProudMary]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Was there really so much less knowledge about bulimia then? It was a pretty big topic for teenagers in the 80s. I feel like when that came out the general reaction was that yeah, seemed like something Diana could easily have.

Agreed. Karen Carpenter died in 1983. Her death put a pretty big spotlight on eating disorders years before Diana's battle.

I appear to be in the minority here, but I think Imelda Staunton is knocking it out of the park with her portrayal of the Queen. What I noticed in the conversation between Elizabeth and Philip toward the end of the episode, was just a slight nuance toward Claire Foy's portrayal of the young Elizabeth. Brilliant. 

[Ellaria]

25 minutes ago, ProudMary said:

Agreed. Karen Carpenter died in 1983. Her death put a pretty big spotlight on eating disorders years before Diana's battle.

I appear to be in the minority here, but I think Imelda Staunton is knocking it out of the park with her portrayal of the Queen. What I noticed in the conversation between Elizabeth and Philip toward the end of the episode, was just a slight nuance toward Claire Foy's portrayal of the young Elizabeth. Brilliant. 

There was knowledge of eating disorders in the late ‘70s. I was in college and a young woman in my dorm suffered.

I also love Imelda Staunton in this role. She is perfect. I’ve seen her in many other roles so I don’t make an immediate connection to to Dolores Umbridge.

[Conotocarious]

I like Imelda as the Queen too. When she made the “stinky minke” remark I was like oh I could totally see that family finding that  funny as opposed to cringeworthy.

[RedElf]

Considering that Penny's daughter Alexandra was Diana's goddaughter, would Penny  have been narcing on Diana like that?

Also, the show didn't make it clear that Penny and Norton were family.  Philip's uncle's grandson and his wife, the Mountbattens.

So was it Charles or his people who broke and entered and attempted murder and bugged Diana's phones?

Edited November 12, 2022 by RedElf

[Roseanna]

19 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

I think the bird represented He who knows everything about everybody (according to Elizabeth).  This show has hinted at Phillip having dalliances but has never shown it outright, and the bird was a subtle reminder from On High to stay true o his wedding vows.  I think the larger message was that people grow apart over time.  It's not like Elizabeth made the effort to go on those carriage rides. 

Theirs was the marriage of old-fashioned sort: the sexual fidelity wasn't even expected (especially from the husband, but among the aristicracy not even from the wife after the "heir and spare" were born), but there was loyalty of another sort which Philip has showed to Elizabeth many times.    

[PRgal]

17 hours ago, ProudMary said:

Agreed. Karen Carpenter died in 1983. Her death put a pretty big spotlight on eating disorders years before Diana's battle.

I appear to be in the minority here, but I think Imelda Staunton is knocking it out of the park with her portrayal of the Queen. What I noticed in the conversation between Elizabeth and Philip toward the end of the episode, was just a slight nuance toward Claire Foy's portrayal of the young Elizabeth. Brilliant. 

I’m not sure if people were as familiar with bulimia/binge eating as they were of anorexia.  I knew because I read a book about a girl with an eating disorder in Grade 6.  And also because it was mentioned in The Baby-Sitters Club (this was early on in the series when the girls didn’t know Stacey well and thought her avoidance of Claudia’s junk stash was because of that and not because she’s diabetic)!  

[Lady Whistleup]

I think the major gap in understanding by Diana's time was how marriage works. The older generation (like Philip and Elizabeth) just believed in 'making it work'. If you couldn't stand each other, sucks to be you. By the 1970's and 80s we had more women saying enough is enough. You can see that with Anne -- Anne is not a rebel, but when her marriage is failing she also doesn't feel obligated to stay.

Philip's "grin and bear it" talk was probably meant well, but it was out of touch. 

[Magnumfangirl]

I don't like Jonathan Pryce as Phillip.  He looks too old and frail compared to what the real deal looked like in the early 1990s.

[OlderThanDirt]

I thought the soaring bird represented the freedom Philip had given up in his choice to pursue his relationship with Elizabeth. He was an impoverished Greek minor royal who was mentored by his uncle Mountbatten into the Royal Navy by WW2 and into the Royal Family. I think his marriage to Elizabeth was in the model set by Albert and Victoria, where there's real affection but a definition of roles. But in his monologs to Penny and Diana he acknowledged that he knew and accepted his role.  But still, there was the freedom of that bird that drew his eye. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

12 minutes ago, OlderThanDirt said:

But in his monologs to Penny and Diana he acknowledged that he knew and accepted his role

Except for his incessant whining that he does to Queen Elizabeth.

[Roseanna]

6 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I think the major gap in understanding by Diana's time was how marriage works. The older generation (like Philip and Elizabeth) just believed in 'making it work'. If you couldn't stand each other, sucks to be you. By the 1970's and 80s we had more women saying enough is enough. You can see that with Anne -- Anne is not a rebel, but when her marriage is failing she also doesn't feel obligated to stay.

Formely, it was much harder to get divorce. And if an ordinary wife had no job, how could she get along, especially if she had kids? 

[qtpye]

It felt very odd seeing Diana tower over Prince Phillip.

[paramitch]

On 11/9/2022 at 6:18 PM, Lady Whistleup said:

I really loved this episode. It did what the Crown does best: study how there's elements of manipulation and half-truths in every memory. Diana's tapes were Exhibit A of that. Was she sincere? Absolutely. Was she also being manipulative and selective with how she told her story? 100%. The actress nailed Diana's voice and mannerisms and even the super-posh accent. 

I also love Crown episodes that show a softer side to Philip. I feel like he's often portrayed as brusque and frosty. I love the scenes with Penny and his memories of Cecilie. 

I also love his talk with Diana. Again, love the tough-tender Philip. I feel like Jonathan Pryce is already making Philip a rounder character than we've previously seen.

I felt that way about Tobias Menzies, who I felt brought a real warmth and charm to Philip. I love Pryce as Philip so far, but I don't feel like he's a particularly warm Philip -- he still feels very chilly to me. I hate that I kept waiting tensely for this to turn romantic (and was glad when it evidently did not?). 

On a shallow note, I've always thought Natasha McElhone was so beautiful, and it was nice to see her again here.

On 11/11/2022 at 11:17 AM, jeansheridan said:

Carriage driving is a big thing, even in the US. And I appreciated a lesson in how the reins work! Imagine controlling four horses with two hands! Amazing.

I really loved what this taught about carriage-driving, which I've read a lot about but have never seen like this onscreen -- it was fascinating and beautiful to watch.

On 11/11/2022 at 11:39 AM, tennisgurl said:

The actress playing Diana did a great job during the interview, she really felt like Diana, especially in her inflections. I can understand why she did the interview, she was worried that Charles was going to drag her all over the press, which he already does in their regular life, and she wanted to tell her side of the story. Obviously some of that was manipulation based on making herself look good, and Diana was certainly an expert at using the press to make herself look like the victim and like the hero, but nothing she said was untrue. 

What's interesting is that, to me, there is this naivete to it when Diana does it, like she really thinks it's just another way to make herself heard, when it is seriously the worst handling of the situation imaginable.

On 11/11/2022 at 1:39 PM, ProudMary said:

I appear to be in the minority here, but I think Imelda Staunton is knocking it out of the park with her portrayal of the Queen. What I noticed in the conversation between Elizabeth and Philip toward the end of the episode, was just a slight nuance toward Claire Foy's portrayal of the young Elizabeth. Brilliant. 

I think she is too. For me she is the first actress who actually makes me believe she IS the Queen, effortlessly.

[qtpye]

2 minutes ago, paramitch said:

On a shallow note, I've always thought Natasha McElhone was so beautiful, and it was nice to see her again here.

She really is quite pretty.

https://tomandlorenzo.com/2022/11/the-crown-queen-victoria-syndrome-and-the-system/

An interesting read on the first two episodes.

[Ohiopirate02]

8 hours ago, paramitch said:

What's interesting is that, to me, there is this naivete to it when Diana does it, like she really thinks it's just another way to make herself heard, when it is seriously the worst handling of the situation imaginable.

MMV on this being the worst handling of the situation imaginable.  Diana was fighting the System.  One where her husband was to be protected at all cost.  Both Elizabeth and Charles had reporters on speed dial to create their own narrative. Diana gave them ammunition with her bulimia, suicide attempts, and affairs.  All things that could be used by Charles to prove her an unfit mother to the future king of England.  That is what her father did to her mother. (Side note, I wish the show had devoted part of an episode to the hell that was the marriage of Diana's parents.  A passing mention really does not cut it.)  Diana was trying to get ahead of Charles here and tell her side to gain popular support that would make it impossible for The System to separate her from her boys.  What other options did she have?

[foxfreakinmulder]

On 11/11/2022 at 1:39 PM, ProudMary said:

I appear to be in the minority here, but I think Imelda Staunton is knocking it out of the park with her portrayal of the Queen. What I noticed in the conversation between Elizabeth and Philip toward the end of the episode, was just a slight nuance toward Claire Foy's portrayal of the young Elizabeth. Brilliant. 

I like her portrayal as Queen too. But as I said last season I wished they would've kept Clair Foy as Queen and kept the story in that era instead of advancing with time jumps. I don't need to see the Diana story I would rather see a story I'm not familiar with. But I think the actress playing Diana is doing a great job. I don't care for the actors playing Charles, or Philip I think they look too old for this time period, and the actor playing Charles looks nothing like him. I am happy the show is back. Is this the last season?

[ProudMary]

1 minute ago, foxfreakinmulder said:

I like her portrayal as Queen too. But as I said last season I wished they would've kept Clair Foy as Queen and kept the story in that era instead of advancing with time jumps. I don't need to see the Diana story I would rather see a story I'm not familiar with.

This times ten!

More than anything, I enjoy the episodes of The Crown that cover the history that was happening across the Commonwealth and the rest of the world and things like the Queen's interactions with her Prime Ministers. The Diana story has been told ad nauseum and while I'm still apt to watch documentaries that cover her as actual history, I really don't see the need for yet another fictionalized version. Just my opinion; I understand that others enjoy it.

[paramitch]

8 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

MMV on this being the worst handling of the situation imaginable.  Diana was fighting the System.  One where her husband was to be protected at all cost.  Both Elizabeth and Charles had reporters on speed dial to create their own narrative. Diana gave them ammunition with her bulimia, suicide attempts, and affairs.  All things that could be used by Charles to prove her an unfit mother to the future king of England.  That is what her father did to her mother. (Side note, I wish the show had devoted part of an episode to the hell that was the marriage of Diana's parents.  A passing mention really does not cut it.)  Diana was trying to get ahead of Charles here and tell her side to gain popular support that would make it impossible for The System to separate her from her boys.  What other options did she have?

I'm a longtime publicist and journalist, so I sort of can't help but see Diana's entire situation as disaster management gone terribly wrong.

Diana's choices to air her grievances publicly went far beyond what anyone else had done at that point with the book. Charles and several others gave interviews as well, but Diana changed the entire landscape with what she was willing to reveal, and at what level of detail.

What it comes down to for me is, did doing these things actually help Diana? Or her children? Or her situation with the royals? I don't see how. Yes, I think they gave her the chance to share her story, and she was a lonely young woman who needed to feel like she was not alone.

However, I also think they reveal her profound misunderstanding of the "The System" to begin with -- and of situation she was in, the naivete she still had. The dangerous thing is, her choice to treat it like a war (and to arguably fire the first shots) set her up in exactly the situation she didn't want -- where it wasn't just her against Charles, but her against the Queen, against the entire royal family, etc. Which she was absolutely not prepared to handle -- and ironically, they absolutely had no desire for it either.

You mention her bulimia, suicide attempts, and affairs being used against her -- but she revealed all of those herself first, via Morton. That's what I mean when I say I don't think her handling of the situation was smart or helpful to her. If anything, her presenting herself with a narrative many considered to have done her more harm than good, revealing herself as angry, vengeful, vulnerable, and neither physically or mentally healthy -- simply gave the palace MORE ammunition to separate her from her kids, not less. Luckily, it doesn't appear that that was ever seriously on the table on Elizabeth's side, to her credit.

In the end, I am 90% on Diana's side in this (I feel slightly bad for Charles, in a miniscule way, who absolutely had no desire to marry her and was already in love, etc.). But I think her repeated impulses to "tell-all" harmed her more than helped her.

Edited November 13, 2022 by paramitch
removed potential spoilers

[katha]

Yes, I think Philip as an outsider who also emerged from a traumatic childhood emphasized to some degree with Diana and tried to help her understand, IMO they showed that well last season and this season. But he had a functioning marriage with Elizabeth and also had developed industrial strength coping mechanisms to deal with any kind of emotional turmoil. So there was only so much they had in common. Agree that she never quite got the hang of how the system worked and did things that ended up hurting her more than helping, it's been reported that Diana actually didn't want to divorce but basically created a situation where that became inevitable, for example. And for all the mismanagement of the Wales trainwreck, I do think for the most part the BRF and Charles didn't take the nuclear option because that would have been terrible for the sons. But Diana gave them much more ammunition than was advantageous for her IMO. 

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, katha said:

Yes, I think Philip as an outsider who also emerged from a traumatic childhood emphasized to some degree with Diana and tried to help her understand, IMO they showed that well last season and this season. But he had a functioning marriage with Elizabeth and also had developed industrial strength coping mechanisms to deal with any kind of emotional turmoil. So there was only so much they had in common. Agree that she never quite got the hang of how the system worked and did things that ended up hurting her more than helping, it's been reported that Diana actually didn't want to divorce but basically created a situation where that became inevitable, for example. And for all the mismanagement of the Wales trainwreck, I do think for the most part the BRF and Charles didn't take the nuclear option because that would have been terrible for the sons. But Diana gave them much more ammunition than was advantageous for her IMO. 

Yes, Diana in a functioning marriage with Charles would be completely different. But Charles can't or won't do that. He's in love with someone else. There's no overcoming that.

[CrowTRobot]

On 11/11/2022 at 4:09 AM, Roseanna said:

One must remember that there was no such knowledge of f.ex. bulimia as today. 

Nah, like others have mentioned it was pretty well known about even then.  Actually, not long after this there was a whole bulimia storyline with the character Sami on Days of Our Lives.  

Regarding the bird imagery in this ep, it's interesting to see so many different interpretations!  I saw it as a bird of prey constantly circling Philip/The Royal Family as an ominous sign that it was going to attack at any moment and everything will go to hell in a handbasket.

[smartymarty]

On 11/14/2022 at 9:15 AM, CrowTRobot said:

Nah, like others have mentioned it was pretty well known about even then.  Actually, not long after this there was a whole bulimia storyline with the character Sami on Days of Our Lives.  

Regarding the bird imagery in this ep, it's interesting to see so many different interpretations!  I saw it as a bird of prey constantly circling Philip/The Royal Family as an ominous sign that it was going to attack at any moment and everything will go to hell in a handbasket.

I learned about bulimia in a Psych 101 class in high school in 1980.

The bird looked like a hawk to me, so I also saw it as a bird of prey. But we only saw it in scenes with Phillip, so I wasn't sure what the directors wanted it to symbolize.

[Camera One]

It was interesting to focus an episode on the spouses - Philip and Diana. 

Philip was fairly likeable in this episode and seems to capture the spirit of the previous Philips.  I'm glad they didn't show anything romantic with his godson's wife, though maybe they were implying it with his speech to Diana about being creative to enjoy life in other ways and the slightly cold conversation we saw later between Philip and the Queen.  I'd rather see Philip as being genuine in trying to help the woman get over her grief.

The way it was portrayed, I felt Andrew Morton was opportunistic, and it was a mistake for Diana to trust him.  Though both in this episode and the last episode, the show is acting like Diana wanted to complain to anyone with a pulse about how difficult her life was.  Heck, they had her saying this to her friend while touring the hospital with people and reporters all around, which seems a little ridiculous.

Overall, I think this was a slightly better episode than the season premiere, but was only mildly engaging.

I'm not sure what the hawk was trying to symbolize either, except it overstayed its welcome.

[chediavolo]

On 11/11/2022 at 2:17 PM, jeansheridan said:

I think Elizabeth as Diana is very good. Her charm at the hospital, the drama of the clandestine tapes, the tension with Philip. Love it.

Carriage driving is a big thing, even in the US. And I appreciated a lesson in how the reins work! Imagine controlling four horses with two hands! Amazing.

Yes that was pretty cool! My husband said if we were filthy rich and idle that’s a sport he would love to get into! 
As some others have said, I really enjoyed the past seasons better when the stories were told about things I have no knowledge of. I’m really sick of the Diana story. She was certainly not an innocent in all of this. there was a lot of bad shit going on between everyone involved. I believed that she was pretty much groomed to become Charles‘s wife is that not true? And why would the royal family go along with having someone with mental issues from such a horrible family life become the future princess? It was well known the  Charles was always in love with Camilla. If Diana had been healthier in her mind not to mention her body she could have made this a life of luxury and something that some of us can only dream of. She and Charles could’ve been amiable enough to raise their children together while having their separate real actual loves & liveson the side. No it’s not the conventional family situation but neither is anything about the Royals. it’s unfortunate that no one pushed her to get some psychiatric help. 

Edited November 18, 2022 by chediavolo

[Ohiopirate02]

3 hours ago, chediavolo said:

Yes that was pretty cool! My husband said if we were filthy rich and idle that’s a sport he would love to get into! 
As some others have said, I really enjoyed the past seasons better when the stories were told about things I have no knowledge of. I’m really sick of the Diana story. She was certainly not an innocent in all of this. there was a lot of bad shit going on between everyone involved. I believed that she was pretty much groomed to become Charles‘s wife is that not true? And why would the royal family go along with having someone with mental issues from such a horrible family life become the future princess? It was well known the  Charles was always in love with Camilla. If Diana had been healthier in her mind not to mention her body she could have made this a life of luxury and something that some of us can only dream of. She and Charles could’ve been amiable enough to raise their children together while having their separate real actual loves & liveson the side. No it’s not the conventional family situation but neither is anything about the Royals. it’s unfortunate that no one pushed her to get some psychiatric help. 

Taking my reply over to History Talk.

[CeeBeeGee]

I have never heard a congregation sing as well as that. As lovely as it was, it took me out of the moment a bit. This is something a lot of movies/TV do, make group sing-a-longs unrealistically on pitch. I work birthday parties--trust me, there are a loooooot of tonedeaf people out there.

[LadyIrony]

On 11/10/2022 at 5:41 AM, Helena Dax said:

I loved Philip in this episode. He was very nice to his godson's wife and I think he honestly tried to help Diana. Personally I never bought the narrative of her as a 100% victim and if it's true that she helped Norton with the book, either she was already looking for revenge or she was unbelievably naive, meaning that book would have never solved anything. 

I wonder what was going on with that bird Philip kept seeing.

I think Phillip possibly had some kind of innocent romance going with her, not in a sexual sense but just common interests. Philip seemed very different to the Queen who comes off as more simple. Philip has curiosities about things like the old wagon and enjoys talking about a variety of topics. 

I think Philip would have made a better Monarch than his wife who is more or less just ticking boxes without a lot of interest. 

I never believed the innocent Diana thing either and I think she played and was played by the media. She seems very naïve and was easily manipulated. Philip tried to warn her even in the previous season. But she seemed to be one of those people who always think they know better and have it under control. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, LadyIrony said:

I think Philip would have made a better Monarch than his wife who is more or less just ticking boxes without a lot of interest. 

Seems like ticking boxes is the better option, especially compared to a guy so often worrying about his manhood, craving adventure and probaby having affairs. As Philip himself pointed out, the more boring Windsors are the ones you want on the throne. (Also the real Philip is known for being stunningly racist even compared to other family members so that could have been much worse.)

Edited November 19, 2022 by sistermagpie

[LadyIrony]

14 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Seems like ticking boxes is the better option, especially compared to a guy so often worrying about his manhood, craving adventure and probaby having affairs. As Philip himself pointed out, the more boring Windsors are the ones you want on the throne. (Also the real Philip is known for being stunningly racist even compared to other family members so that could have been much worse.)

I do wonder about that. Was he really racist or just a straight shooter who was brought up around similar types of men and just had a rough sense of humour?  I am sure he was rather official and dignified when the situation called for it. 

The Queen may have had affairs as well. Despite this program being about her we don't really see much about her private life and I can only assume she did a great job in hiding most of it from public view. 

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, LadyIrony said:

I do wonder about that. Was he really racist or just a straight shooter who was brought up around similar types of men and just had a rough sense of humour?  I am sure he was rather official and dignified when the situation called for it. 

“If you stay here much longer you’ll all be slitty-eyed” during a royal visit to China. Seems like he had a history of public statements like that that yes, were laughed off as straight shooting or cheekily funny by some and considered racist by others. 

[Milburn Stone]

On 11/13/2022 at 5:09 PM, paramitch said:

In the end, I am 90% on Diana's side in this (I feel slightly bad for Charles, in a miniscule way, who absolutely had no desire to marry her and was already in love, etc.). But I think her repeated impulses to "tell-all" harmed her more than helped her.

@paramitch, I thought your whole post was an excellent analysis. The only place we part company is in that 90%. I was 90% unsympathetic to Diana in this episode. 

For one thing, "the other side is about to get their side of the story out, I want to get your side" is the oldest journalistic trick in the book. A journalist never has the interest of the source at heart, only his own need for a scoop. I'd think she'd have had some basic training in this--well before things went south in her marriage--or at the very least have had the intelligence to see through the sham.

As for the show's depiction of her, this is one of those cases in which I have that uncomfortable feeling that a show wants me to see something other than what I'm seeing. Is Peter Morgan trying to make me sympathetic to Diana? I have this queasy feeling that he is. And it's not working, which makes me quite irritable.

On 11/19/2022 at 5:15 PM, LadyIrony said:

The Queen may have had affairs as well. Despite this program being about her we don't really see much about her private life and I can only assume she did a great job in hiding most of it from public view. 

I don't believe The Crown has ever been about The Queen. It's always been about The System, and Philip's speech about that was the essence of the entire series in a nutshell--and the one part of the episode that, for me, rose to excellence. (With great credit due Jonathan Pryce). 

I share the view that Imelda Staunton is terrific as Elizabeth. Had the privilege of seeing her on the stage once, as Mrs. Lovett in a revival of Sweeney Todd in London. One of Britain's greatest actresses.