S01.E07: Driftmark

[CountryGirl]

2 hours ago, ursula said:

Two little girls who had just buried their mother just found out that an important connection to her had been taken away. Then the person who did it rubbed their faces into it by reminding them that their mother is dead, and they should fly a pig instead.

I don't know how many adults would have handled that gracefully but you think a 7-year-old and a 9-year-old being upset in this situation means they're "Spoiled Brats"? Yikes. 😬😬😬

Agreed. I am also side-eyeing the thinking that Rhaena, who literally just buried her mother, shouldn't have been allowed half a second to process that before insta-claiming her mother's dragon. Aemond took full advantage of the situation.

[go4luca]

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

The moment that really clinched my love for this show, much as I have felt some storylines have been rushed (hello, Harwin and Rhae's romance) was when Alicent attacked Rhae and the subtle, yet palpable drawing of battles lies between Alicent's side (with her sons and daughter, Criston) and Rhae's side with her children and Daemon. No dialogue but just that little shift in movement. 

Dialogue wise though, one of my favorite moments of this episode was when Rhaenyra said "Now they see you as you are".  Emma's delivery was brilliant.

[Cristofle]

35 minutes ago, ursula said:

Two little girls who had just buried their mother just found out that an important connection to her had been taken away. Then the person who did it rubbed their faces into it by reminding them that their mother is dead, and they should fly a pig instead.

I don't know how many adults would have handled that gracefully but you think a 7-year-old and a 9-year-old being upset in this situation means they're "Spoiled Brats"? Yikes. 😬😬😬

Yeah, I don't see any real indication that Baela and Rhaena are overtly spoiled. They might be, as many highborn children are (Baela is probably more likely to be spoiled as she has her father's favor), but nothing about that fight indicated they were spoiled. They're children. The intricacies of dragon lore are going to go over their heads - poor little Rhaena has been trying to hatch her dragon egg for years. Vhagar was an emotional connection to their mother that was devastating to lose. I see that irrationality as being much more sympathetic than Aemond immediately turning cruel because Rhaena said he stole the dragon. That's not much of an insult. 

Jace and Luce are harder to call. Jace is an heir to the Iron Throne but has had rumors of being a bastard haunt him for some time, so there's that. The rumors seem to have gone over Luce's head until this episode. I think the main way the children differ is that the four had/have mothers who clearly love them and have not raised them to be viciously spiteful and resentful of the other kids, and then there's Alicent. And Viserys hasn't stepped in to help that at all. The fact that Jace/Luce and Baela/Rhaena are close is enough of an indication that Rhaenyra and Laena were doing a better job at least on some front. And Laenor is kind, even if he hasn't been overwhelmingly involved. 

As for claiming Vhagar, I would consider Daemon more to blame than Rhaena herself for not claiming Vhagar, who is...what, seven? Eight? She's mourning a horrific loss of her mother. She's not even capable of thinking particularly strategically yet. It's Daemon who should have known better than to bring Vhagar back to Westeros without having his dragonless daughter work on claiming her. 

[AntFTW]

4 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Here, Alicent even claims that Viserys' favour will forever rest with Rhaenyra after the whole stabbing thing - even though he cut her far more slack than he did for Rhaenyra. And Otto, the supposedly savvy politician, is proud of his daughter's extreme stupidity.

I don't think he's proud of her stabbing specifically, he's proud that she's willing to play the "dirty game" of thrones and determined to win.

[LadyChaos]

I think the relationship dynamic between Daemon and Rhaenrya is complicated.

There is no denying they are kindred spirits...but there is also that Viserys kind of ignored her, or at the least viewed her as less than because she wasn't a boy(when she was a child, later he changed)...and Daemon did not. Even in the first episode, we see there is a very unique dynamic between them already where they are each others true confidents, they are open with each other and honest with each other where they are not with others. Whether its appropriate for a man of 20ish years to have his 14 yr old niece be his best friend is a discussion for another time....but Daemon also treated Rhaenyra like an equal and talked to her and didn't treat her like a child...probably the only person in Rhaenyra's life that didn't tell her to know her place and be a lady. 

Does that mean they loved each other? Yes. Daemon is capable of loving people. I think he also felt guilt for loving Rhaenyra when he knew he couldn't have her, and shouldn't want her. Does that mean they are head of heels, passionately in love with each other? I don't know...maybe? I think its far more likely that their love for each other is born from knowing that the other accepts them as they are and doesn't try to shove them into a box.

Edited October 4, 2022 by LadyChaos

[Roseanna]

7 hours ago, Avabelle said:

I agree with most of your points bar this one. My own opinion having watched Alicent - there is nothing Rhaenyra could have done to keep her on side. Her hatred and anger stems from her father offering her as a babymaker to Vicerys and Vicerys for accepting her as that. Instead of calling either men out she had instead misplaced this anger and blamed everything on Rhaenyra. Using Rhaenyra’s apparent selfishness at doing what she pleases as away to justify the (irrational) anger and hatred. No matter what Rhaenyra had done Alicent was going to end up hating her regardless. 

I don't believe one can presume that Alicent had the same kind of feelings as a modern young woman had in the same situation. She was raised to find it natural that her marriage was decided by her father to promote the interests of her family. Viserys wasn't a bad choice: although he is older, he is kind and he could offer most in the worldly terms that matter also to women.

As for "calling either men out" - that's hardly possible to do if you are living that kind of society and raised like Alicent was. And it wouldn't helped her in no way. It would also be foolish to do: although Viserys wouldn't probably marry a unwilling bride, her father would have found her a much worse husband or let her rotten unmarried in some remote place until she would come to senses. 

Actually it was Rhaenyra who first became angry towards Alicent when her father announced that he will marry her instead of Laena. Rhaenyra moped years for this although Alicent couldn't but follow her father's orders and (as we saw although Rhaenyra didn't) she didn't do anything else but was nice and emphatic towards the king grieving for the loss of his wife. She didn't seduce him, Viserys could have married (after a few years) Laena which would have been politically a better match. 

During her first years of marriage Alicent who felt loneliness as Queen tried to win Rhaenyra's friendship again but she refused.

 It's partly because Rhaenyra gave up Alicent for years why her father had so easy to convince her against Rhaenyra. 

Whatever her motives were in the beginning, the situation has now escalated so much that they are sworn enemies.  

[DigitalCount]

I feel like Aemond and Baela are intentionally contrasted in this episode. Baela, seeing Jace obviously sad about his dead bio-dad, chose to show empathy and comfort, because she knows how losing a parent feels. She reached out to her cousins to help them all grieve together.

Aemond knows how it feels to be without a dragon and he knew Rhaena felt bad about it. He had the same opportunity as Baela to be kind and to bond with Rhaena and to show empathy. Likewise, Baela had the same opportunity to be cruel to Jace for being illegitimate. Aemond chose to cause pain in the same way that Aegon hurt him, to someone who had never done him wrong. He could never confront Aegon, because Aegon is too strong, so he turned his cruelty on people he believed couldn't touch him. Just like a bully.

[proserpina65]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

Two little girls who had just buried their mother just found out that an important connection to her had been taken away. Then the person who did it rubbed their faces into it by reminding them that their mother is dead, and they should fly a pig instead.

I don't know how many adults would have handled that gracefully but you think a 7-year-old and a 9-year-old being upset in this situation means they're "Spoiled Brats"? Yikes. 😬😬😬

Sorry, but my sympathy for them was limited at the point where they accused Aemon of stealing a dragon which belonged to no one at that point.  So yes, they were spoiled brats.  Less so than the others, but not innocent victims either.  None of those kids came out of that situation looking good, in my opinion.

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

Aemond took full advantage of the situation.

And good for him.  Westeros is a "you snooze, you lose" kind of place.

To clarify: I don't think that Aemon's behavior afterwards was good in any way.  Just his claiming Vhagar.

Edited October 4, 2022 by proserpina65

[Cristofle]

8 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Sorry, but my sympathy for them was limited at the point where they accused Aemon of stealing a dragon which belonged to no one at that point.  So yes, they were spoiled brats

Again, they are children whose understanding of dragon behavior is kind of limited, especially Rhaena who doesn't have one. "Stole" was an emotional term based on Vhagar's connection to their mother. It wasn't a gigantic insult, nor a sign they were spoiled. Rhaena has obviously suffered for years not having a dragon and she feels it's the reason her father ignores her. Her emotional reaction is more from grief and frustration than spoiled. 

I don't blame Aemond for claiming Vhagar, incidentally. I blame him for his behavior in the cave. He did not need to react to "You stole our (recently dead) mother's dragon!!" which is a weak insult at BEST, with the amount of spite that he did. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Cristofle

[proserpina65]

Just now, Cristofle said:

I don't blame Aemond for claiming Vhagar, incidentally. I blame him for his behavior in the cave. He did not need to react to "You stole our (recently dead) mother's dragon!!" which is a lame insult at BEST, with the amount of spite that he did. 

I blame them ALL for their behavior in the cave, Aemon included.  He was not angel there.

But I'm not going to belabor the point.  People feel how they feel about the various children and that's fine.  At least it's something interesting to talk about.

[UnoAgain]

9 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Sorry, but my sympathy for them was limited at the point where they accused Aemon of stealing a dragon which belonged to no one at that point.  So yes, they were spoiled brats.  Less so than the others, but not innocent victims either.  None of those kids came out of that situation looking good, in my opinion.

And good for him.  Westeros is a "you snooze, you lose" kind of place.

To clarify: I don't think that Aemon's behavior afterwards was good in any way.  Just his claiming Vhagar.

If what he was doing wasn't shady or something.... Why the sneaking about... He knew what he was doing.. It was shady.. Risky.. Ballsy... He knows the pain of not having a dragon... Purposely went after his just buried cousin's dragon in the dead of night ...its also the last vestige the girls had of their mother.. If he wanted to be a man... Wait till morning say let's go see who vhagar chooses

[FnkyChkn34]

1 hour ago, Cristofle said:

As for claiming Vhagar, I would consider Daemon more to blame than Rhaena herself for not claiming Vhagar, who is...what, seven? Eight? She's mourning a horrific loss of her mother. She's not even capable of thinking particularly strategically yet. It's Daemon who should have known better than to bring Vhagar back to Westeros without having his dragonless daughter work on claiming her. 

I agree with you to a certain extent, but as people (bookreaders?) are pointing out to me in response to one of my earlier comments, dragons aren't property. So Daemon couldn't have brought Vhagar back, or made Vhagar do anything she didn't want to do... right?  But maybe he - or the team of dragon trainers that they all employ - actually could have. Who knows. 

It's all a gray area as to "are dragons property," IMO.  The dragon and the dragon rider seem to belong to each other. Vhagar was Laena's even after death, as evidenced by Vhagar "attending" the funeral.  She would be Laena's until she decided that she wasn't anymore. And sure, it was Aemond who approached her first, but that doesn't mean he isn't still an asshole. In an ideal world, the dragon trainers would have lined up every person/kid who needed/wanted a dragon, at the same time so no one had an unfair advantage by being sneaky at night. But of course, that wouldn't have made for as interesting of an episode. Apparently we needed to see children fight over a direwolf, I mean, dragon.  

And as someone else already made this comparison too - the wand chooses the wizard. The dragon chooses the rider. But the wizard now owns that wand. So the rider doesn't also "own" that dragon? Hmm... there are ways for others to win the loyalty of both, I guess...

But it's all shades of gray on purpose, methinks. 

[paigow]

Law & Order: Westeros VU 

Ben Stone, personally outraged at the Driftmark Rumble, butts heads with his boss Adam Schiff while attempting to get Everyone tried as an adult.

Edited October 4, 2022 by paigow

[Cristofle]

23 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

So Daemon couldn't have brought Vhagar back, or made Vhagar do anything she didn't want to do... right?

He definitely couldn't have made her accept Rhaena as a rider. Humans are the dragon's pets more than dragons are the human's pets. Vhagar chooses who she allows to ride her. It seems there may be SOME heightened connection between dragons who are hatched after sharing a crib (it seems that Rhaenyra, Baela, and possibly Jace got their dragons that way, unclear about the others, at least from the show), but there is probably never a guarantee a dragon will allow that rider. 

I'm just not sure he even tried, lol. He looked so resigned when he saw Vhagar flying, like "Shoulda seen that one coming."

[tennisgurl]

Things do certainly escalate quickly around here! The kids were pretty damn quick to start throwing around rocks and knives, although as to who is most at fault, my finger is pointed at Aemond, who's the one who almost bashed his cousins head in with a rock before Jace ever pulled a knife. Plus, he was just being a smug little shit in general, I hate that he's going to get to ride Vhagar, especially so soon after Laena's passing. I guess I cant fully blame him for wanting to bond with his dragon considering how much crap he's taken over not having bonded with a dragon yet, but that kid with a dragon is not going to end well. 

I am really glad that Laenor actually survived, although I am not sure exactly what went on with the "fake his death" plan. Was that always the plan, or did Rhaenyra and Daemon mean to have him killed and his boyfriend went off script? I am going to guess that faking his death was always the plan, that ruthlessness seems to be a pretty big escalation for Rhaenyra and while they dont love each other, Rhae and Laenor do seem to care about each other. I am just glad that Laenor is alive, he's a decent person and one of the last decent people still around at this point, everyone else is dying or slipping further into darker actions. I am glad that he and his boyfriend can get the hell out of here and live their best lives elsewhere, its probably the best ending anyone is going to get in this whole mess. 

Holy shit Alicent, how does that seem reasonable? I have felt sympathy for Alicent previously and I can understand her anger and bitterness, but its hard to root for a person who wants to hack a kids eye out, even Ser Criston was not looking thrilled about the idea of cutting out a kids eye, despite his buring hatred for all things Rhaenyra. 

Wasn't Helaena last episode muttering about Aemond "having to close an eye" if he wanted a dragon in the last episode? Instead of rolling their eyes at her, her family should really be listening to what she has to say. 

I felt so bad for all of the kids at the end, Baela, Rhaena, Jace, and Luke have all lost so much in such a short period of time, Laenor, Laena, Harwin, and now their parents are getting married about three seconds after their fathers/mother died? I also feel bad for Viserys, he's falling to pieces mentally and physically and while he has accidently caused a lot of these problems, his intentions were good and he really is trying to fix his fractured family, but now its too late. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by tennisgurl

[sistermagpie]

42 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I am really glad that Laenor actually survived, although I am not sure exactly what went on with the "fake his death" plan. Was that always the plan, or did Rhaenyra and Daemon mean to have him killed and his boyfriend went off script? I am going to guess that faking his death was always the plan, that ruthlessness seems to be a pretty big escalation for Rhaenyra and while they dont love each other, Rhae and Laenor do seem to care about each other. I am just glad that Laenor is alive, he's a decent person and one of the last decent people still around at this point, everyone else is dying or slipping further into darker actions. I am glad that he and his boyfriend can get the hell out of here and live their best lives elsewhere, its probably the best ending anyone is going to get in this whole mess. 

It seems like they definitely were all in on it based on their conversation, and that Daemon killed the guy they burnt up as a stand-in.

[sd dude]

On 10/2/2022 at 8:10 PM, Cristofle said:

Given that Daemon has two children and has now been seen onscreen having sex with Rhaenyra, what was the point of the impotence implications of the first few episodes?

I'm not one who subscribes to the theory that the implication of the sexual scenes involving Daemon is that he has chronic erectile dysfunction.  I had read in this forum regarding prior episodes that there may have been some comments made by cast or crew in post-episode production material that it was the intention for the viewer to infer that about Daemon, but honestly, that is only one interpretation for a viewer to take away and IMO something of a stretch based on what was actually portrayed.

In episode one, he seems to be in flagrante with his paramour, at which point she asks if he is troubled.  I took that to mean he is not performing as he usually does with her, and perhaps is having difficulty reaching a climax.  He also may have lost his erection, but I saw no reason to conclude that he hadn't had one immediately prior to that scene, nor that he hadn't performed adequately with that partner previously.  In terms of the latter, the partner's expression of concern implies to me exactly the opposite, unless this was meant to be the very first time the two had coupled together, which I did not infer.

The next time this seems to be a focus of attention is when he is in the brothel with young Rhaenyra, and starts something that he doesn't finish.  Is this solely because he is physically unable to achieve an erection or is it rather about him thinking better of the situation of him seducing and deflowering his teenage niece in a Fleabottom brothel, whom he has true affection for?  Obviously, his second thoughts may manifest themselves in the form of a physical (non)-reaction, but that doesn't mean he is incapable, simply that he suddenly finds himself unwilling.  Furthermore, was it ever his intention in that particular situation to have intercourse with her, or was that something she pushed the envelope on?  Maybe his intention was to tease, play, arouse, etc. and not to take her virginity that evening in that setting.  The scene does not provide us enough information to know, so my interpretation is as valid as yours.

Then there is the (final) meeting with his first wife, which many are taking as just more evidence of Daemon's sexual dysfunctions, but I really think that is an overreach.  All we know is that they  never consummated their marriage, but I think it is strongly implied that they have never tried, not that they have tried and (he) failed.  He despises her and holds her incomplete disdain.  At the very least, he has so little regard for her that he thinks nothing of leaving her to die from the elements until she manages to goad him into euthanasia.  He may accept that they are betrothed by law, but in his heart and mind she is not his wife and they are not partners in any way, shape or form.

Fortunately, the fact that he has produced 2 daughters with his second wife and the fact that there appears to be no hesitation with grown-up Rhaenyra on the rebound should put to rest the idea that he can't perform when he wants to and when he is inspired and when not vexed by shit going on at the office.

If I'm going to stretch my own speculation, I am willing to theorize that he does have a sexual fetish for phenotypes reminiscent of Old Valaria, most notably white-haired persons, regardless of skin tone.  Perhaps he performs much more enthusiastically with partners of that type, but I don't think that means chronic ED has been his issue.

[Lady S.]

18 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I don't think Rhaenyra fights against "misogynist ideas" but that, as a Princess, she feels entitled to eat her cake and have it. And so far, the show has let us imagine it's possible by making Viserys to not act, unlike any father or king in this situation should.

But there isn't a world where one's deeds has no consequences. Ultimately, the fight between Aemond and others was due Rhaenyra's betrayal of honor (a value that holds this kind of society together) by presenting her bastards as legitimate.     

It's not an either/or situation. The double standards Rhaenyra's chafing against are misogynistic. A male monarch could father as many bastards as wanted, and could legitimize one of them as heir in absence of any legitimate heirs. You keep comparing her to a queen consort or a princess meant only to wed a prince, never inherit. Rhaenyra is an heiress meant to be a Queen regnant. Her children's claim to the Iron Throne comes solely through her, not their father. (Granted, Laenor does have a claim through his own mother but no one recognizes that claim. Least of all Otto and Alicent.) Luke is not a Velaryon, but all of them are still Targs as much as Alicent's kids. Why is it treason if her sons still have the needed royal blood? Only because women are never allowed to have extramarital sex, regardless of bloodline. That's misogyny. 

As I understand it, there are two practical reasons bastards aren't born with inheritance rights: 1. children born of mistresses are thought to have less certain paternity than those born to a moral wife and 2. wives to noblemen and royalty are part of dynastic alliances where the maternal family expects future heirs out of the deal. The second part applies to Driftmark and would only apply to the Iron Throne if Laenor and Corlys cared about their bloodline. The first reason doesn't matter so much because it's the the boys' maternal line which gives them a claim to the throne, and that cannot be doubted.

Words still have meanings and this is not a historical docudrama or even historical fiction. It's a fantasy story created by a modern (American) man and brought to screen by other modern people for a modern audience. Punishing children for the sins of their parents is still cruel, and saying a woman should lose all rights for sluttiness is still sexism. The standards of this society are important for understanding the characters, but that doesn't mean we have to agree with them. Moral relativism has to have its limits, and it's kind of absurd to say that a society that has sexism and classism baked into its laws with no concepts of marital rape or child abuse means those isms don't exist and that we shouldn't criticize Westerosi mores.

And how does Viserys's weakness give Alicent the right to countermand his orders to the Kingsguard, steal his weapon, and threaten his daughter? That is a treason even higher than adultery. Pretty sure real queen consorts have been put under house arrest for less.

If Alicent was truly concerned only with duty and morality, she would not be blaming only Rhaenyra when Laenor's part is obvious. (She mocks him but is not actually calling him out for his failures in conjugal duty.) If Alicent was truly concerned only with duty and morality, she would not be protecting a murderer in the Kingsguard. If Alicent was truly concerned only with duty and morality, she would not tell kinslayer Larys she would one day have further need of his services. If Alicent was truly concerned only with duty and morality, she would not be further weakening Viserys all she could for her own ends. (There's also her years ago acting grossed out by the Targs' "queer customs" and now betrothing her daughter to her eldest son. Which I just realized is a direct response to Rhaenyra offering for Helaena to be Jace's future Queen. "Oh, Viserys wouldn't it be better if she married someone closer in age, and isn't marrying closest kin the Targaryen way?")  She's getting away with just as much, if not more, from the king. Hell, she re-appointed her father as Hand after Viserys pretty resolutely fired him!

Edited October 5, 2022 by Lady S.

[Jack Shaftoe]

4 hours ago, AntFTW said:

I don't think he's proud of her stabbing specifically, he's proud that she's willing to play the "dirty game" of thrones and determined to win.

Trying to murder someone in full view of the entire court is playing to lose, if you ask me. The "dirty game" would be to send an assassin or try to smear or enemy's reputation (not there is much need in this case).  Even Cersei managed to come up with stratagems more complicated and less suicidal than "steal a dagger and try to stab your rival in public".

Edited October 4, 2022 by Jack Shaftoe

[Constantinople]

Rhaenyra, Daemon, Laenor and Qarl conspire to kill an innocent person to serve as Laenor's body double.

Their wants are of no consequence - Rhaenyra in Episode 4

Checks out.

[AntFTW]

5 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Trying to murder someone in full view of the entire court is playing to lose, if you ask me. The "dirty game" would be to send an assassin or try to smear or enemy's reputation (not there is much need in this case).  Even Cersei managed to come up with stratagems more complicated and less suicidal than "steal and dagger and try to stab your rival in public".

The “game” never ends. Alicent tried to stab Rhaenyra. Alicent lost her composure. It’s a loss, for now. There will be other chances. 

Cersei was winning consistently until she wasn’t.

[Affogato]

12 hours ago, Roseanna said:

It's true that Alicent should have acted only in private, not in public. 

However, the crux of the matter is that Rhaenyra's bastards have no right to the crown that, after her reign, should belong to her step-brothers, the king's sons by Alicent. No mother worth is salt could accept that her children's inheritance is stolen.    

If laenor claims yhem are they not legitimate?

[cambridgeguy]

12 minutes ago, Affogato said:

If laenor claims yhem are they not legitimate?

If no one believes it then they'd always have to be looking over their shoulder because a legitimate relative could use it as justification for rebellion.  Joffrey was legally a Baratheon, but that didn't stop Stannis or Renly - sure, they may have known he was a little shit, but they wouldn't have been able to raise an army so quickly if he was trueborn.

[paigow]

Are there only 5 combat ready dragons?

Team Alicent has only 2?

[Meredith Quill]

24 minutes ago, paigow said:

Are there only 5 combat ready dragons?

Team Alicent has only 2?

The Greens currently have 3 dragons; Aegon's, Helena's and now Aemond's.

The Blacks currently have 5-6 dragons; Rhaenyra's, Daemon's, Jace's, Luke's, Baela's and possibly Rhaenys' if they align with their grandkids side. However, only 3 are currently battle-ready re size as of episode 7.

[Lady S.]

5 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Sorry, but my sympathy for them was limited at the point where they accused Aemon of stealing a dragon which belonged to no one at that point

People keep saying this, but no one called Aemond a thief or used the word stolen to his face. That was only what they said when waking the boys. In the cave they just say it was their mother's dragon and Rhaena says she was hers to claim. A pedantic distinction, perhaps, but I think it matters when speaking of personal insults and how much they hurt Aemond with words. He could have stopped at "you should've claimed her" or tried to explain further in a sympathetic manner. Instead he told her she was only fit to ride a pig. That is in no way a response to the girls' words, it was him taking his anger for Aegon out on them for a prank they had nothing to do with and probably never even knew about. I don't think it's too much to say they had some reason to be confused and hurt in their grief or that he owed them some sympathy for that grief, not only because it was the very night of their mother's funeral but because they're his cousins as much as they are Jace and Luke's.

The other major point worth considering is that they did not know it was Aemond they were going after until they found him. The girls saw Vhagar flying from a window but there's no way they could identify the rider. For all they knew it was a grown man and not even a Targ, hence getting back-up from boys they'd just met and Jace bringing a knife to protect them. Which is not to say Aemond deserved to be mutilated or that either boy should have brandished a weapon toward the others, but that no one went there with the intent of murder, maiming, or ambush. Or a 4-on-1 pile-on either since that only happened after Aemond beat each of them 1v1. If grabbing a rock and saying "you will die screaming" is a valid response to that and before that threatening to feed the grieving girls to their own recently dead mother's former dragon a valid response to being hit once, then I think the others' responses to his provacations should be viewed the same way. I don't think he actually meant to kill them either but that doesn't mean Jace and Luke weren't scared for themselves and the girls too.

Oh, and finally, the other relevant point is that while Aemond had bonded with Vhagar, that doesn't mean he had every right to claim her that very night. If so, he wouldn't be sneaking around while every single one of those kids was meant to be in bed (under watch by the incompetant Kingsguard). I think a good deal of his hostility was defensiveness because he knew the manner in which he won the dragon was not strictly kosher.

There's that moment earlier at the wake where Aemond looks like he wants to reach out to someone but he can't. Because Mommy wouldn't want him to. That's the glaring reason this can't be reduced to Rhaenyra's bastards fight with Aemond and it's her fault for being a slut. Those boys jumped into it only to defend the girls. (And if we're judging by Westorosi mores, is it not their duty as knights-in-training to defend all maidens, especially their kin?) The initial disagreement was between Aemond and the girls and he threw out a hurtful insult to them with almost no provocation. Girls who are not bastards and not rivals for Aegon's claim to the throne either. Is that not proof that Alicent has taught her sons Cersei's philosophy that "everyone who isn't us is an enemy"? (While Rhaenyra very unwisely allowed her sons to admire Aegon despite him being a future political threat to them.)

If furhter proof is needed, let us not forget that Alicent made her war declaration via green dress at Rhaenyra/Laenor's wedding, before they failed to produce true Velaryon kids. Or that her lecture to Aegon last ep did not mention the boys' legitmancy, only that they and Rhaenyra were his rivals and that he would be King. So, no, she does not want him to follow Rhaenyra, and I see no reason she'd be content to have her kids passed over so long as Rhaenyra's sons were Laenor's blood. She and Otto are on exactly the same page now about wanting her sons to be the king's only heirs, period. 

Rhaenyra's adultery matters to her because it's a way to get her disinherited, which would have been her goal anyway. And of couse because she's deeply jealous of Rhaenyra and still obsessed with her long after their friendship died. Now the only way she can force Rhaenyra to still pay attention to her is by constantly antagonizing her. 

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Are there only 5 combat ready dragons?

Team Alicent has only 2?

There were three following her ship, so Aemond's, Aegon's, and Helaena's. I am annoyed we didn't get a close-up of the latter two. 

Team Rhaenyra has Syrax and Caraxes. Seasmoke's status now unclear, and we don't know where Rhaenys and her dragon will come in. She doesn't like Daemon or Rhaenyra but her granddaughters are pretty firmly tied to their cause now.

Also, open civil war hasn't actually started yet, even with the bloodshed in this ep. And Viserys is rotting away piece-by-piece, but somehow still ticking. So Rhaenyra's boys and Daemon's dragonrider daughter still have time for their dragons to grow big enough to ride.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Lady S.

[Cristofle]

1 hour ago, Lady S. said:

There were three following her ship, so Aemond's, Aegon's, and Helaena's. I am annoyed we didn't get a close-up of the latter two. 

Aegon's is Sunfyre; he mentioned it last week. I'm not sure the show has yet made clear the status of Dreamfyre, but she is an adult dragon who laid the egg Daemon stole per the second episode. So the adult dragons we've seen thus far on the show are Vhagar, Caraxes, Syrax, Meleys, Sea Smoke, probably Sunfyre, maybe Dreamfyre. Baela, Jace, and Luce all have young dragons, but Syrax was certainly big enough by the time Rhaenyra was 15, so the implication is they grow quickly and I imagine they will at least be rider-ready within a few years. They haven't made clear yet whether Baby Joffrey's egg will hatch, I don't think. 

Of course, Vhagar is obviously the most formidable and probably worth at least three of the other grown dragons. She's significantly bigger than Drogon at his biggest. 

[FnkyChkn34]

2 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

The Greens currently have 3 dragons; Aegon's, Helena's and now Aemond's.

The Blacks currently have 5-6 dragons; Rhaenyra's, Daemon's, Jace's, Luke's, Baela's and possibly Rhaenys' if they align with their grandkids side. However, only 3 are currently battle-ready re size as of episode 7.

Helena is not right in the head, so she could be a wild card.  Her dragon would have to be well-trained, fully independent, and not rely on her to give it directions at all.

[paigow]

Aemond might not get the Iron Throne but he could still be powerful like this guy...

[magdalene]

My two cents on why Daemon wasn't more proactive about getting Rhaena to be chosen by Vhagar - he looked traumatized and in shock when he witnessed his wife's death by dragon fire. So maybe not ready to put his daughter in front of the same dragon right away?

It doesn't matter now as the baby has fallen into the bath water.

[ShannaB]

On 10/3/2022 at 1:08 PM, MrsR said:

Well, I think if more people were familiar with the Plantagenets, the real dynasty who the Targaryans are based on, there would be a lot less pearl clutching. This family lasted for 350 years during the wild wild west of medieval times. You don't last that long by following rules or other peoples mores or coloring within the lines.

Thank you for this!  So true and not just England's history.

Some observations-

• At the funeral gathering, there were 'watchers'...Rhaenyra, Otto, Daemon, Larys...and young Aemond.  All 5 were observing everyone and everything.
• Aemond did not seek out Vhagar until after he heard her mournful cries.  I give this kid props for walking up to this magnificent and deadly creature and taking the reins and actually holding on.  He walked up to that other dragon in the  pit at Kings Landing and he ran before he almost got torasted, so Aemond faced his fear and stood his ground with Vhagar.  She chose to accept him as her new rider.
• No one was as shaken as Leanor at the funeral.  He didn't even acknowledge his parents when he passed them at the gathering, so there are obvious issues and resentments.  The loss of his sister and his feelings about his parents may have made his decision to 'die' an easy one.
• Aemond did look to Jace for possible inclusion in the cousin mourning group at the gathering but Jace averted his eyes.  I think Aemond did attempt to be friendly with his cousin but was shunned.
• I would have preferred that Rhaena had bonded with Vhagar but Daemon AND the grandparents were lax IMO.  Granted they didn't know there was a 'wld card' out there called Aemond but when your family strength and power is based on dragons, you take steps immediately to keep your assets safe and at home.  You snooze, you lose.
• The cousin fight has been discussed extensively in this thread, so I will side step and just say that the fight was necessary  because lines are now drawn between the children.  Their feelings after this fight will be their own and not just the feelings of hate they absorb from their parents and others around them.
• I  worry about the fate of the dragons
• Showrunners!!  you have Graham McTavish and you keep him standing around?  I am baffled! Here's hoping his part gets bigger and better in future episodes.

Edited October 5, 2022 by ShannaB

[aghst]

4 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

The Greens currently have 3 dragons; Aegon's, Helena's and now Aemond's.

The Blacks currently have 5-6 dragons; Rhaenyra's, Daemon's, Jace's, Luke's, Baela's and possibly Rhaenys' if they align with their grandkids side. However, only 3 are currently battle-ready re size as of episode 7.

Will the dragons fight each other?

No bros over hos?

[LanceM]

5 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

If no one believes it then they'd always have to be looking over their shoulder because a legitimate relative could use it as justification for rebellion.  Joffrey was legally a Baratheon, but that didn't stop Stannis or Renly - sure, they may have known he was a little shit, but they wouldn't have been able to raise an army so quickly if he was trueborn.

Actually Renly raised his army before he found out Joffrey was a bastard. He just wanted the throne because he thought Joffrey was a little shit. 

[jeansheridan]

On 10/3/2022 at 10:02 AM, Cristofle said:

Sure, Aegon is rude and careless, but in a way that sort of makes sense

I agree. He seems okay. He would be a weak leader however. I think he would prefer to be the second son.

[nilyank]

15 minutes ago, LanceM said:

Actually Renly raised his army before he found out Joffrey was a bastard. He just wanted the throne because he thought Joffrey was a little shit. 

Well he is not wrong about that.

[Oscirus]

Another thing that stuck out to me this week is after the fight when aemon of all people is calming his mother down, that o shit look that popped up on Rhaes face after he said the dragon line.

Also I was with Alicent for everything b4 the eye for an eye thing. My sons eye is slashed out and you're talking about slander?  Screw you Viserys

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Words still have meanings and this is not a historical docudrama or even historical fiction. It's a fantasy story created by a modern (American) man and brought to screen by other modern people for a modern audience. 

If so, why didn't the writers create a maternalistic society? 

It seems that this show tried to it both ways: it is full of senseless violence (and nobody protests against it) but in one point it tries to please the audience (if Rhaenyra can have modern ideals out of nowhere, why other characters don't get pacifist and equalitarian ideas?).   

[RobertDeSneero]

16 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Alicent isn't angry because she really cares about blood, but because Rhaenyra's getting away with something AGAIN.

Maybe my view is overly colored by modern politics, but why shouldn't someone who colors within the lines and does what duty requires be angry at the person who never gets punished for doing wrong things and always gets away with perpetuating some big lie that affects how the realm is to be ruled.  Alicent is completely justified in being mad.

Edited October 5, 2022 by RobertDeSneero

[RobertDeSneero]

10 hours ago, sd dude said:

Then there is the (final) meeting with his first wife, which many are taking as just more evidence of Daemon's sexual dysfunctions, but I really think that is an overreach.  All we know is that they  never consummated their marriage, but I think it is strongly implied that they have never tried, not that they have tried and (he) failed.  He despises her and holds her incomplete disdain.  At the very least, he has so little regard for her that he thinks nothing of leaving her to die from the elements until she manages to goad him into euthanasia.  He may accept that they are betrothed by law, but in his heart and mind she is not his wife and they are not partners in any way, shape or form.

She taunted him by saying "I knew you couldn't finish".  I think there's a clear implication that he had failed to finish in the bedroom.

[Roseanna]

14 hours ago, DigitalCount said:

I feel like Aemond and Baela are intentionally contrasted in this episode. Baela, seeing Jace obviously sad about his dead bio-dad, chose to show empathy and comfort, because she knows how losing a parent feels. She reached out to her cousins to help them all grieve together.

Aemond knows how it feels to be without a dragon and he knew Rhaena felt bad about it. He had the same opportunity as Baela to be kind and to bond with Rhaena and to show empathy. Likewise, Baela had the same opportunity to be cruel to Jace for being illegitimate. Aemond chose to cause pain in the same way that Aegon hurt him, to someone who had never done him wrong. He could never confront Aegon, because Aegon is too strong, so he turned his cruelty on people he believed couldn't touch him. Just like a bully.

A fine analysis if it concerned our world.

However, I haven't seen that empathy has value in this universe. Instead, bullying, coercing and violence seems to widely done without any consequences. Christon wasn't punished for the killing and Rhaenyra evidently loves Daemon whose first wife's death's circumstances she must be suspect if she has any sense. 

Thus, instead of concentrating on who did "right" or was "likeable", the crux of matter seems to be: who has most abilities to win in the power game? 

Machiavelli says that the ruler must *seem* benevolent to his people but underneath he must be capable to be ruthless if it's necessary. Daemon and Rhaenyra agreed that she must seem to be capable to do evil deeds in order to make her opponents to fear her. Although the deed wasn't done, we know that at least Daemon is capable to do it.

[Meredith Quill]

6 hours ago, aghst said:

Will the dragons fight each other?

No bros over hos?

 

This gif though, if you know you know 😉

[Cristofle]

4 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

Maybe my view is overly colored by modern politics, but why shouldn't someone who colors within the lines and does what duty requires be angry at the person who never gets punished for doing wrong things and always gets away with perpetuating some big lie that affects how the realm is to be ruled.  Alicent is completely justified in being mad.

Rhaenyra didn't make her live her life the way she does. She's not the reason Alicent is miserable "within her lines". Otto is probably more responsible than anyone. Also, Alicent's right to be mad about getting away with an insane amount has officially run out as of that scene, because she stole the king's dagger FROM HIS PERSON and attacked his heir after repeatedly and publicly refusing his commands. If Viserys were not the kind of personality he is, she would never have made it out of that room unscathed and she may not have stayed alive much longer. Really, she probably never would have been able to keep Criston alive. She has benefitted from Viserys' weak personality as well, but she can't see that because she views her life as miserable and Rhaenrya doing things she probably wishes she could do but feels she can't. 

[Glama]

On 10/3/2022 at 7:23 AM, FnkyChkn34 said:

I just watched this 15 seconds before I type this... 

Aemond comes in talking shit, being a pompous little asshole. They have the conversation where she says the dragon was hers to claim, then he says her mother is dead and a pig would suit her. She then runs at him and he violently throws her to the ground. The older sister then punches him in defense of him throwing her sister. 

My take is that Aemond started it in more ways than one. 

Doesn't anyone remember how all the other kids were bullying Aemond in an earlier episode, giving him a pig as a dragon? I think he was only getting back at them for bullying him.

[FormerMod-a1]

The girls were not part of that.  

[UnoAgain]

5 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

Maybe my view is overly colored by modern politics, but why shouldn't someone who colors within the lines and does what duty requires be angry at the person who never gets punished for doing wrong things and always gets away with perpetuating some big lie that affects how the realm is to be ruled.  Alicent is completely justified in being mad.

I guess.. But how exactly has Rhae doing whatever she wants actually hurt Alicent?... If she's all about duty.. Alicent did hers.. And became Queen... And gave birth to two princes and a princess... Her family is stronger... Nothing Rhae has done has stopped that... And sure Rhae has skirted some conventions.. But her actions are not that different from any other Heir... She married into a powerful family ..which helped stabilize the realm.. And she gave birth to 3 targaryen princes of the blood... So what is the issue? 

[Meredith Quill]

36 minutes ago, Glama said:

Doesn't anyone remember how all the other kids were bullying Aemond in an earlier episode, giving him a pig as a dragon? I think he was only getting back at them for bullying him.

Funny how he chose the younger, smaller boys, and two girls completely unrelated to that incident in any way, vs his older, larger brother, aka the instigator, to 'get back at'... 🤔 very funny that.

26 minutes ago, aquarian1 said:

The girls were not part of that.  

This.

[FnkyChkn34]

30 minutes ago, Glama said:

Doesn't anyone remember how all the other kids were bullying Aemond in an earlier episode, giving him a pig as a dragon? I think he was only getting back at them for bullying him.

The girls and one of Rhaenyra's sons (Luce? the younger one) had nothing to do with that though!  In the earlier episode, it was Aegon and the older one (Jace?) who bullied him; I'm pretty sure they showed the younger one walk away before they brought out the pig.  

So Aemond decided that he needed to get revenge on... the people who did not bully him in the first place?  He bullies the girls first, and then finally Jace and Luce.  Aegon wasn't even there.

That's not a defense of Aemond.  That's just further proof that he's ALSO a bully who won't get true revenge (on his brother), but he'll only pick on kids who are smaller than him.  Classy.    

[Avabelle]

4 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

So Aemond decided that he needed to get revenge on... the people who did not bully him in the first place?  He bullies the girls first, and then finally Jace and Luce.  Aegon wasn't even there.

It’s sort of in line with Alicent deciding she needs to hate Rhaenyra and taint her role as heir to the throne because… her dad married her off and now she hates her life?

[FnkyChkn34]

Actually, upon further reflection, didn't Aemond get the Kingsguard to discover drunk Aegon and put him to bed?  Maybe this is Aemond planning ahead to get his brother out of his way.  Some people also defend Aemond by saying that he didn't approach the dragon until he heard her cry in anguish - but it seems to me like there are clues to show it was premeditated.  And there are also clues to show that he knew what he was doing was wrong, if he didn't want Aegon in his way to stop him.

Just another thought.

[LadyChaos]

Can someone actually explain to me what they feel that Rhaenyra does that is 'OMG THE END IS NYE IF SHE SITS THE THRONE!?!'

I mean comparatively? Yes her children are not her husbands....but she is married to a man who has no interest in bedding her and therefore she took having children into her own hands. And her husband is okay with it and claims the children as his own. He himself has his own lover....and given that this world is a 'medieval fantasy' it actually wasn't that unheard of for women to have very discreet affairs after they produced an heir...even in GOT, everyone knew that Cersei's children were not Roberts children, but bore his name and without concrete proof they couldn't really do anything about it....and at the end of the day, the royal line flows through Rhaenyra's veins, not her husbands, so all her children legitimate or not, have claim to the throne over Alicent's sons' because they are not the next heirs to the throne. After that...what? She has the audacity to enjoy sex? OMG! The horror!

At least Rhaenyra is actively trying to be a good person, raise her children to be good people, and wants to be a good leader.

Whereas Alicent has actively spent the past 10 years working with people behind the scenes to sow dissent and chaos to undermine Rhaenyra....and has actively raised her children to hate and dispise their sister and her children. Raised her kids to believe they have a right to something their father has no intention of ever giving them.