S03.E08: Midnight Blue

[AnimeMania]

The Orville crew visits Heveena’s sanctuary world and embarks on a journey that may leave the entire Union more vulnerable. 

Original Airdate: July 21, 2022

Note: The planned next episode for Season 3, "Sympathy for the Devil", was never filmed due to COVID restrictions, so Seth Macfarlane is releasing it as an Ebook and an Audiobook on July 19, 2022.

Edited July 20, 2022 by AnimeMania

[Meushell]

That was an emotional ride. Anyone predict that Topa would walk into the debate all beat up? I mean, I was surprised they actually went there, actually showed it. As soon as they did though, I figured why.

Heveena was wrong, but I can understand why she asked for Topa’s help. So many had to take risks for the sanctuary to happen. Every step a greater risk than the last.

I wonder who the contact was, since they kept it a secret. I considered Klydon, but it sounded like the new network started before he left Orville. He also seemed to have really only turned after Topa was almost killed. Locar? We don’t know what became of him, and it’s possible he was able to deny Klydon’s accusations. 

[phalange]

Dolly Parton! Talk about a cameo! They were like, we have streaming money now, we're going all out. 

I'm glad Topa got to meet Haveena and the other female Moclans, and even though Haveena shouldn't have involved a kid, I get why she asked and why she started up the secret mission again. The right thing and the lawful thing aren't always the same. Topa was incredibly brave throughout, including going to the Union Council meeting and showing everyone her injuries as proof.

Moclus getting kicked out of the Union is going to have huge impacts on the war with the Kaylon. Not just for the Union, but Moclus will also be vulnerable without Union protection if the Kaylon suddenly decide to pay their planet a visit.

Klyden's back! I didn't expect him to have a change of heart so soon, and it shouldn't have taken Topa getting tortured for him to come to his senses, but I'm glad he finally did and apologized to Topa for the way he treated her. Hopefully Klyden will also be getting some therapy to deal with his own unresolved issues. 

[greekmom]

11 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

Note: The planned next episode for Season 3, "Sympathy for the Devil", was never filmed due to COVID restrictions, so Seth Macfarlane is releasing it as an Ebook and an Audiobook on July 19, 2022.

That's sounds interesting. Do you know where it's being released? Kindle? And is it for free?

Will the next episode be shown next week or will they skip a week?

[AnimeMania]

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

That's sounds interesting. Do you know where it's being released? Kindle? And is it for free?

Will the next episode be shown next week or will they skip a week?

That information is in The Orville: Sympathy for the Devil (Ebook/Audiobook) thread. There will be an episode next week.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Pretty good episode, but as usual, some head-scratchers, nitpicks and miscellaneous thoughts for me.

I wish the show did more to establish why/how Moclans got so anti-female. We've had about a half-dozen Moclan focused episodes and we still haven't gotten much insight into how Moclans got to be a mostly single-species race, why they are so disgusted by women, etc. Is it religion? Is it because there were women in Moclan history that were particularly heinous? 

It seems super-foolish to break the agreement in general (at least, by trying to smuggle more female Moclans and their families to Sanctuary Colony-- sorry don't remember the actual name). It's a big galaxy out there. Just set up a second, third or 20th colony where female Moclans can reside together. That way, you can disavow any knowledge of their activities. Or have them integrate in the hundreds of Union worlds where people might actively welcome them, or at least don't give a shit about their gender. Surely there are some people/planets who would be supportive of that cause. Knowing that there are annual inspections, wouldn't a simple census/lifesigns scan show "hey, there are supposed to be 1,502 Moclans and now there are 1,603. Explain." Did the female Moclans manage to mask the lifesigns of the extra colonists somehow, and/or does the male Moclan inspection team just suck at their one job? 

For that matter, do Moclan doctors also suck at their job? It seems like they should be able to determine if a fetal Moclan was potentially female in the egg, or if not, shortly after she was born, and that they would then force the baby to be male. There shouldn't really be a chain of female Moclans and their families to smuggle at this point. I wish they would have addressed this more, maybe by saying that with news of the Sanctuary Colony there was upheaval on Moclus and more doctors refusing to do the surgery or something.

Using Topa as a link in the Underground Railroad seems foolish and backward. Again, there must be literally millions, if not billions, of people who are opposed to Moclan sexism. Putting aside the sheer ruthlessness of not caring about what might happen to either her or Union/Moclan relations if she is caught, there's got to be better spies that they could recruit to the cause than someone who's the equivalent of a 14-year-old with restricted movement/access, who is flying on a ship that could be anywhere in the galaxy (including out of range of Sanctuary Planet) and that is constantly in danger. There's got to be better ways they could have used Topa to advance the cause, like writing a documentary about her. 

I did love the Gordon is clueless about Topa having a crush on him. But did Bortus and Klyden not tell Topa much about the birds and the bees and how Gordon's like, decades too old for her? I thought before they went there that her crush was going to be on one of the more age-appropriate Finns.

It's unclear to me how/why the Moclan Inspection Team came to suspect Topa of being part of the Underground Railroad. Did they have some listening device to spy on Helveena? If so, why not show a recording of Helveena recruiting Topa? Was it just a lucky guess on their part? If so, they went to pretty extreme lengths on a lucky guess. 

I think this was co-written by one of the people associated with 24, and it seems like it imported that show's philosophy that "in the end, torture always works." No it frigging doesn't. Sometimes, people can and will mislead you. Sometimes, people will say anything to just get the pain to stop. Sometimes, people will not say anything before they succumb to their injuries. The notion of the bad guys killing Topa before they can confirm that she was telling the truth doesn't make sense other than to be like "We're the bad guys." It would be far more logical from their perspective to clean up her injuries (which they can do in minutes given future tech) and brainwash her. How are they going to explain the disappearance of Topa? Just bluster that it wasn't them, it was the female Moclans? You don't have to be Sherlock to put the puzzle together that when Topa disappeared, a clue leaving DNA from a male Moclan (who presumably doesn't match the DNA of any of the male Moclans on Sanctuary Colony), someone has sabotaged the communications array and the thrusters of the Union shuttle, to come to the conclusion that the culprits had to be part of the Moclan Inspection Team. The Moclans couldn't expect to just bluster their way through that forever, could they?

Also, Moclan Inspection Team, if you are going to sabotage the shuttle, why not actually disable it so it 100 percent can't fly without repairs that would give you a chance to escape without being traced? 

Do the people on Sanctuary Colony have no normal way of contacting the outside galaxy? The show establishes that they have a double secret probation way of doing so as part of the Underground Railroad, and I can understand why they would not normally want to use that. (Although I hope Helveena did the courtesy of sending a mayday message saying "the male Moclans have kidnapped this girl who I tried to recruit so she could be ratting you out, bug out now!

More thoughts later...

[Colorado David]

good epi, tho i can't agree with using children as a means to an end - I would give Haveena more credit intelligence-wise than to go down this path. BUT then again that's a human belief (and maybe just my own),  so maybe the Moclans think otherwise.

Great epi for Bortus and Klyden, really well done guys.

[Zaffy]

I do not like TV or movies showing torturing children. 
There were some interesting things in this episode, some big plot holes...but the whole Interrogation part frakked up everything for me.

We are not in the Middle Ages but in the era of space travelling and I cannot accept that   there are no drugs that work as truth serums or there is no technology to record everything Heveena was saying to Topa.
What was the point of watching a child suffering a torture session?? that Union would only break their alliance with the Moclans after learning they torture kids for info? That Moclans are sadistic monsters? Or to shock the audience a la GOT (which had no issue burning little girls alive)? 

Sorry but this is an episode I will pretend it never existed.

And please, stop talking in the series like if its 2022. For Christ's shake.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Zaffy

[shapeshifter]

This episode gets an A for concept but maybe a D- for execution of the concept.
The episode was miraculously saved by the presence of Dolly Parton and the acting of Chad L. Coleman as Klyden, as well as Peter Macon as Bortus. 

As a successful actor with money to burn who is producing, writing, directing, and starring in an off-network show:
Seth needs 1 or 2 really good-at-what-they-do assistants to say no to people who come at him with stupid ideas for the show——and, perhaps more importantly, to say no to dumb ideas he comes up with.

There were a couple of "interesting" turns of phrase in this episode (more like "say what?" phrases), one of which was:

• [ED TO HAVEENA] I respect your struggle. I really do. But don't advertise tactical opportunism as pious morality, because that's when you lose me.

Can someone here edit this phrase for the viewing audience? It sounds like it was copied from somebody's college Poli Sci notes. 
And then maybe can you get a job writing for the show? Tell 'em shapeshifter sent you.

And another bit that we all seem to agree should have been rewritten:
The torture of a child in this episode was neither an effective interrogation technique nor an effective story-telling technique as a means to convince the audience that the Moclans are the Really Really Bad Guys. 
I suppose the writers thought they could get away with it because we have recently and frequently seen how easily physical injuries are repaired in the 25th century——including the otherwise unnecessary scene in this episode when Kelly injured her shoulder in a failed jump and had her torn ligament diagnosed and repaired in minutes with a portable tricorder.
Nice try, writers, but no. Be more creative.
So in the end poor Topa was "just" psychologically damaged. 
Sheesh.

Edited July 21, 2022 by shapeshifter
starring not staring, although there is some of that too

[thuganomics85]

As soon as I saw the cabin in the simulator, I was like "Wait, they didn't actually get her, did they?!", and then, boom!  Dolly Parton appearance out of nowhere!  Granted, I shouldn't have been that surprised because I feel like at this point Seth has almost everyone in the industry on his rolodex, but that was still a great reveal.  Bonus points for keeping her name out of the initial guest credits too.

Nice seeing Heveena and the conflict with the female Moclans again, even though I've got major mixed feelings with how she acted here.  I get that the rebellion is in a precarious situation and that some lines need to be crossed to truly make change.  But to not only recruit a clearly susceptible teen/child to your cause but be prepared to basically sacrifice her when things go south is just all kinds of morally wrong.  I get the whole idea that many more would be saved by not doing anything, but that takes a willingness to turn off your emotions that is kind of scary.  I understand why and I still think the true villains in all of this are the bigoted male Moclans that refuse to change, but I don't blame Ed's disappointment and anger.  And I won't blame Bortus if he really doesn't ever forgive her.  At least they are now a sovereign nation, so hopefully changes can be made that won't require Heveena to cross more lines like this.

I do think they were a little on the nose with the Moclans having a black-site and flat-out beating and torturing Topa like that.  I know they're suppose to be a more barbaric species (like the Klingons), but I feel like it would have been more in line if they used some kind of drugs or trickery to try and extract that information.  Won't lie though: on a basic level, it was still fist-pump worthy watching Bortus beat the shit out of the interrogator at the end.

The Union officially separating with the Moclans now is interesting and puts all of them in a more precarious situation.  If I had to guess though, if/when the Khylons make their next big move, I can see a temporary alliance reforming once again.  Or, hell, maybe the Krill will somehow be the ones to take their place.

Even if everything worked out and the end and he wasn't wrong, I suspect in real life Gordon would still get in a lot of trouble for chewing out the Moclans like he did.

Surprised Khylen is already back.  His change of heart is a bit rushed, but to be fair, he wouldn't be the first person who suddenly wakes up and see the error of his ways about a certain issue once it effects him on a personal level.  Still think he has a lot to walk back (especially the wishing she was never born line), but it's a solid start at least.  Plus, Chad L. Coleman sold the hell out of it.

Bortus and Kelly do make for a good team, but where they hinting at something more possibly down the line?  Kind of random, but not the most far-fetched idea, I guess.

Pretty light on the majority of the ensemble here.  Almost thought we wouldn't even see Claire this episode until she showed up at the end.

I'm sure there are a few complaints I could have, but this episode mainly worked for me due to the performances: especially Peter Macon, Adrianne Palicki, Coleman, and Rena Owen (Heveena.)  Plus, Dolly Parton!

Edited July 22, 2022 by thuganomics85

[greekmom]

While i enjoyed all the Dolly references and Dolly herself (thank you McFarlane!) I did have some issues with the episode.

Things I found far fetched:

• Helveena trusting a preteen/teenager with the task of being the middle person in the underground railroad because she was on a Union ship. 
• Klyden's 180 about Topa. I dont buy this one AT ALL.  Kyden had some deep issues with being female and not knowing and then the trial to determine Topa's gender, his disgust with the Moclan that liked girls and finally Topa's gender reassignment and you're telling me that he NOW has a change of heart because Topa was tortured? I dont buy it.  I can see him at most coming back and giving a speech how he wants to try and understand.  Not the full "my daughter" and "Join us Commander."
• The Union's attitude towards the whole Topa is missing.
• The Moclan's thinking they will get away with kidnapping Topa on the off chance she knew the person on Moclas who was the contact in the underground railroad for the females.  They could have been discussing Dolly for all anyone knew.

Things I liked:

• Dolly. The music and her cameo!  
• The females dancing to Jolene
• Topa's crush on Gordon was super cute and Gordon's clueless about it
• Kelly and Bortus make a bad ass team
• The torture guy getting his. I was yelling at the tv "KILL HIM BORTUS!!! KILL HIM!!!" and "SHUT UP KELLY!!!"

I was hoping Topa would give the torture guy the following name and code: "Parton, Dolly.  925"  I might have bought Klyden's change of heart if she gave them his name, he was brought there and saw her tortured.  Just maybe bought it.

One more thing. I think that both the Krill and the Moclans are going to come knocking on the Union's door as the Kaylons could try to pick them off first.

[Lugal]

Of all the guest stars on a space opera with a ship flying to different star systems, Dolly Parton was the last person I would expect.  But there she is and she was awesome!  The music just fit the moment so well.

The torture was awful, but I'm grateful they didn't show more than they did.  For all the praise that Peter Macon, Adrianne Palicki, Chad Coleman, and Rena Owen get (and well deserved), Imani Pullum deserves a special shout out again, she was so good.  She even showed how withdrawn Topa seemed at the end.  This girl has a bright future ahead of her.

I can actually understand Moclans using torture over other methods of interrogation (it shouldn't need clarifying that I think that torturing a child is disgusting), because the Moclan fundamentalists hate what Haveena's colony represents.  Due to Topa's role in the creation of the colony and recent events regarding her surgery she represents everything they fear, they want to destroy her.  Plus it sends a message to any other collaborators.

I can understand Haveena recruiting Topa, after all, in theory, she was just supposed to send messages from the Orville, keeping her out of the fighting.  I don't agree with recruiting teenagers to fight, but it does happen in conflicts.  But maybe Haveena should read "The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas" (that story keeps coming up in relation to Topa).

I can go with Klyden's come-to-Jesus moment.  Nearly having a loved one killed can put a lot of things in perspective very quickly.

I thought it was a good episode and like Gordon, I thought it was time the Moclans were finally called out on their shit.  As for what the future holds, let's hope Dolly was right and it will sort itself out.

[blueray]

First off, I liked this episode but it defiantly took a turn that I wasn't expecting and the torture scenes were hard to watch :(. Once Topa got kidnapped, I at first thought it would turn out to be Klyden but was glad to be wrong. I liked the parts one the Sanctuary planet and was glad that Kelly & Borus were able to rescue her. Was totally rooting for Borus to kill him. 

The part I wasn't so thrilled about was the whole court thing. Why would Helveena ever come forward. Yes, it sucks that a pre-teen was kidnapped but coming forward undo's everything that they are doing to save thousands of kids. If she really believes in her cause she wouldn't have come forward at all no matter what a hologram of Dolly or Ed say. She would stick to her original opinion and deny everything. Also she probably wouldn't have trusted Topa so quickly. Which makes me wonder if she even told her the truth. Maybe she was just trying to see if she could handle a task, that was important but not in the way that she said (but not the kidnap part, that wasn't planned). Anyhow, while I'm glad the court stuck up for her, it seemed to quick and not beneficial for war efforts.

And a nitpick, but how the hell did Kelly, Borus & Topa get to Earth that quickly? First off they had to walk all the way to the shuttle (which seemed at least a mile through rough terrain) and escape a shuttle fight. The take the half working shuttle all the way to Earth, when they had no reason to think that the Orville was there? Communications were down as well. Yet they of course arrive to the correct location on earth while the case is being heard.

Also lastly Klyden made me cry and I was glad to be wrong. He of course had nothing to do with what happened and really does love her. I liked the family dinner at the end and how they included Kelly.  

Edited July 22, 2022 by blueray

[Chaos Theory]

I really liked this episode.   It answered the Moclan question which it has been asking for awhile now.   The Moclan's have a belief system that pushes against The Union belief system in a very real way.  How much does the Union appease the Moclans to keep the peace even in a time of war when they both need each other?   I really like how Helveena came off kinda bad as well using Topa and was told off by Ed.   And her scene with Dolly Parton was fantastic and was really well done to the song "Try"  That as perfect and worked for me on multiple levels.   Win or lose all you can really do is try.  

The one thing that struck me through the entire series is that Klyden has never really tried to be part of the ship.  There are likely other families on board and he could have joined up with family members who were like him not military themselves but married to someone who was.  But he was obsessed with being pure and because of that caused alot of problems for both Bortus and Topa so the scene where he asked Kelly to have dinner with them was him......trying.   All you can really do is try.

Bortus and Kelly do make an interesting team.  I don't think there is any romance there just a deep friendship.  Bortus is gay and I don't think it would be right to have them change that.  It would send the wrong message about sexuality.  Plus I think Kelly just likes spending time with Topa and views Bortus as a friend.

The court thing was a feel good moment not really based in any reality that is done on alot of shows.  Everyone does the right thing in the last moment.  We chose to be good people in the very last moment even if it costs us.   We stand for something here.  I think Helveena went to the court because she really was touched by meeting Dolly Parton even a computer version of her and really did feel guilt about using a child even if she felt what she was doing was right.   What Ed said hit its mark and then what Dolly said doubled down on her.  She had to do what she could.   

All you can do is try.

Edited July 22, 2022 by Chaos Theory

[jah1986]

Well once again Dolly Parton saves the day! Best part of the episode, and keeping her name out of the opening credits is the way it should be done, I was shocked. I also, loved all the females dancing around the fire to Jolene.

Was the longest episode of the season? It was over 90 minutes.

Everyone has already stated reasons not to love this episode, but it was nice seeing Klydden come around and even invite Kelly to join them for dinner. Maybe he saw the same hint of something between Bortus and Kelly that I saw when she got hurt, gotta nip that in the bud.

Gordon taking forever to get a clue re: Topa's crush, was hilarious, especially since everyone else got it immediately. I'm liking Gordon a lot more this season.

Minimal Charly was another positive for me. But once again, Dolly Parton!!! Thank you Seth!

[chaifan]

13 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

... Just set up a second, third or 20th colony where female Moclans can reside together. That way, you can disavow any knowledge of their activities. Or have them integrate in the hundreds of Union worlds where people might actively welcome them, or at least don't give a shit about their gender.

... For that matter, do Moclan doctors also suck at their job? It seems like they should be able to determine if a fetal Moclan was potentially female in the egg, or if not, shortly after she was born, and that they would then force the baby to be male. There shouldn't really be a chain of female Moclans and their families to smuggle at this point.

@Chicago Redshirt I agree with so much of your post.  I've highlighted the big parts for me. 

I so agree with wondering why female Moclans just can't go to another established world.  I've never understood why they have to have a secret island hideaway.  Does no one else live on that planet?  It seems a pretty nice place to live.  Have no Moclan ever moved off Moclan?  That would just seem weird for a free society.  And, as for the doctors, it's possible that there are female-friendly doctors that are willing to hide the gender, but it's also a stretch. 

Overall, I liked this episode, but damn, it was looonnnnggggg.  Geez, Seth, just because you can make an 80 minute episode doesn't mean you should.   I was really glad they had Gordon be the Greek Chorus and say what we've all been thinking about "oh, here we go again, the Moclan act badly and we have to ignore it to keep them in the Union", and how that is just such BS.  I would love for the Moclan to have to come back begging for Union protection in the future.  And I'd love for the female Moclans to show up and save the day.

I'm glad they brought Klyden back.  Yeah, he seems to have made a full 180 awfully fast, but I suppose if there's anything that will make that happen it's having your child tortured and then almost killed.  But I'm glad to have the character back, and the actor did an amazing job in those scenes.

Kelly should have shot both of the Moclan they found with Topa.  Topa had just revealed the name of the mole and the contact frequencies.  So by leaving them alive she just killed the mole. 

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

Bortus and Kelly do make an interesting team.  I don't think there is any romance there just a deep friendship.  Bortus is gay and I don't think it would be right to have them change that.  It would send the wrong message about sexuality.  Plus I think Kelly just likes spending time with Topa and views Bortus as a friend.

I'll disagree with you on this.  I think there was definitely a "moment" when Bortus was repairing Kelly's shoulder.  And I think it went both ways.  I don't think Bortus, or any of the Moclan, necessarily fit our definition of gay.  Their species has evolved so that 2 men can procreate.  Only males (supposedly) exist, so they are effectively a one sex species.  They have established that there are Moclan males who are attracted to females.  It is possible Bortus is the Moclan equivalent of bi, and just hasn't realized until recently he can also be attracted to women.  Whatever the explanation is, I definitely think there was something there between Bortus and Kelly, and I think we'll see it again. 

[Yeah No]

Hulu totally gave away that Dolly was in the episode on the episode banner page by putting her face on it.  When I saw that I knew we were in for a surprise somewhere and started theorizing about when and where she'd appear.  I figured it would be in the "simulator", but the hilarious juxtaposition of the very serious ideologue and crusader idolizing the sweet, simple wisdom of Dolly was a pure delight!  I had just seen Dolly in the finale of "Grace and Frankie" with her former costars from "9 to 5" - I guess she still gets around!

I knew Klyden would wake up and come back but this was much sooner than anyone could have anticipated.  I suppose I could buy it happening after this situation but a little more lead up to it would have had greater impact from a dramatic POV and more believability.  We didn't get to see the internal change in Klyden that would make it believable.  But OK, I'm going with it anyway since the situation was so compelling it's possible it might have woken him up but I still think it would have taken more time.  I'm still holding to my prediction that he may eventually consider having the same operation as Topa did to reverse his sex change back to female.  We'll see.

Bortus and Kelly do make a good team, but was I the only one that thought the show was teasing us with a possible romance between them?  I don't know how I'd feel about that.  Plus with Klyden coming back it's fraught with complication.  Not loving that idea.  I'm sure Bortus and Klyden still have a lot to work out and there's no guarantee they will be able to do that, even now.

Topa's crush on Gordon was another bit of subtle humor.  It's not uncommon for females in her age bracket to form crushes on older men like teachers (hah I did).  Kelly's well meaning advice about just telling the guy is rarely if ever the best thing to do.  So without proper guidance on what's appropriate and inappropriate she just waltzes right up to Gordon in front of a group of others and lays it all out on the table.  Ouch, tone deaf much?  And Gordon, who to his credit probably would never even want to imagine that a girl her age would be interested in him "that way" has to be hit over the head with the proverbial 2x4 as to what she's doing!  Priceless!

Bortus going after the torturer made me root for him to kill him, but I'm not so sure he did.  The guy was still alive when they left, although gravely injured.  He knows the name of the smuggler.  Not good.  And now Topa might always be down on herself for caving in.  Not good either.

One good thing is that Seth is finding his gravitas in his portrayal of the captain.

I did feel the episode was a little long this time.  Not sure why, because it certainly didn't drag, but I just think it had SO MUCH in it for one episode, I felt worn out by the end of it.  It was a lot at once and a lot to process.  

[Zaffy]

how old Topa is supposed to be? in human years? 
The actress has started going to College last year after finished filming Orville,  so I guess she was 18 when they shot this episode?

[paulvdb]

4 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I did feel the episode was a little long this time.  Not sure why, because it certainly didn't drag, but I just think it had SO MUCH in it for one episode, I felt worn out by the end of it.  It was a lot at once and a lot to process. 

It was by far the longest episode of the season and more than 10 minutes longer than the previous longest episodes. So it's not surprising that it would feel long because it actually was.

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, Zaffy said:

how old Topa is supposed to be? in human years? 
The actress has started going to College last year after finished filming Orville,  so I guess she was 18 when they shot this episode?

Unless someone can chime in here with info from the podcasts regarding Topa's age in season 3. . .?
The Orville Wiki at orville.fandom.com/wiki/Topa#cite_ref-:1_1-1 states:

• "Topa hatched from an egg to Bortus and Klyden in late October 2419 . . .
  "By June, the now eight-month-old Topa had matured to the equivalent of a seven-year-old human. . . .
  "By August, Topa reached the development of an eight-year-old human."

The Orville Wiki Timeline page also indicates that Topa transitioned from male to female in 2422.

My math suggests Topa is 15 or 16 in this episode.
But the directing and acting, and the crush-on-Malloy plot seem to indicate an age closer to 12-14. 
So we could split the difference and go with Topa being 13-15 years old for this episode, but probably older by the next time we see her
——unless we get a line in the next episode including Topa that states that the events of this episode happened in the last day or 2.
🤷‍♀️🙃
But actor Imani Pullum is so adept at changing voices, that I'm confident we will sense when Topa is an adult before we are told or see her having an alcoholic beverage with Kelly.  

Edited July 22, 2022 by shapeshifter

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, paulvdb said:

It was by far the longest episode of the season and more than 10 minutes longer than the previous longest episodes. So it's not surprising that it would feel long because it actually was.

Around the half-way point, I paused it and got in my swimsuit and sunscreen. Then I paused it with 10 minutes left to swim laps for 30 minutes in the condo pool while that was still an option.   

[Jynnan tonnix]

50 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Around the half-way point, I paused it and got in my swimsuit and sunscreen. Then I paused it with 10 minutes left to swim laps for 30 minutes in the condo pool while that was still an option.   

I was watching it last night before bed, and started nodding off (not because I was bored, just getting really sleepy). I figured there was probably not that much more to go, but when I looked at the time line it was barely halfway though, so I just paused it and finished this morning. Otherwise I would have definitely fallen asleep and missed most of the second half.

I thought it was a good episode, though, as many have mentioned, not lacking in the head-scratching department.  One that I found almost laughable was the interminable labyrinthine quality of the Moclan base which was practically deserted, and enabled Kelly and Bortus to double back and take out the Moclan security more than once. I don't know whether that was meant as a joke, but it did make me actually chuckle. 

And speaking of Kelly and Bortus, yes, that "moment" between them wasn't even that subtle to my eyes - I'm surprised at seeing so many "was it just me, or..." comments about it, honestly. I mean, the whole failed jump/injury situation had no other function than to set that up. So I do think we will see it crop up to complicate things somewhere down the line. I'm not sure how I feel about the soap-opera-ness of some of the B-plot lines. Although I do enjoy romantic plots, it seems like a bit of overkill when so many major characters end up falling for each other. Even if it might be inevitable in some ways in a setting like a starship, I would think that it would still be discouraged. 

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

speaking of Kelly and Bortus, yes, that "moment" between them wasn't even that subtle to my eyes - I'm surprised at seeing so many "was it just me, or..." comments

I was almost sure they were going to kiss, and even wondered if it might turn out that Moclans don't kiss and it might turn comedic. But WRT:

2 hours ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

. . . I mean, the whole failed jump/injury situation had no other function than to set that up. So I do think we will see it crop up to complicate things somewhere down the line. I'm not sure how I feel about the soap-opera-ness of some of the B-plot lines. Although I do enjoy romantic plots, it seems like a bit of overkill when so many major characters end up falling for each other. Even if it might be inevitable in some ways in a setting like a starship, I would think that it would still be discouraged. 

——as I suggested upthread, it's possible the almost-kiss was a red herring and the real reason for Kelly's injury was:

19 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

The torture of a child in this episode was neither an effective interrogation technique nor an effective story-telling technique . . .
I suppose the writers thought they could get away with it because . . . including the otherwise unnecessary scene in this episode when Kelly injured her shoulder in a failed jump and had her torn ligament diagnosed and repaired in minutes with a portable tricorder.

🤷‍♀️ But even if the writers did set up the insta-healing of Kelly to make Topa's torture injuries seem less horrible, I do not think that worked at all. 

Edited July 22, 2022 by shapeshifter

[Welshman in Ca]

Okay I'm going to go out on a limb here & will probably get a lot of push back on here but there we go, I'm a big boy now.

I had no problem with Topa being shown being tortured for 2 reasons with the first being we don't know her exact age & in the Moclan society she may well be an adult. Just because she is someones child doesn't make her an actual child, I am my parents child and I'm knocking on the door of 60.

The second reason is probably more controversial and more difficult to explain so will probably get me in trouble and that is that it happens & just not showing it & ignoring it doesn't make it go away and not happen in real life. That's not saying that the actual act isn't 100% wrong and put me in a room with someone who has done  such a thing to a child & only one of use would be walking out.

Okay fire away people.

[shapeshifter]

2 minutes ago, Welshman in Ca said:

Okay I'm going to go out on a limb here & will probably get a lot of push back on here but there we go, I'm a big boy now.

I had no problem with Topa being shown being tortured for 2 reasons with the first being we don't know her exact age & in the Moclan society she may well be an adult. Just because she is someones child doesn't make her an actual child, I am my parents child and I'm knocking on the door of 60.

The second reason is probably more controversial and more difficult to explain so will probably get me in trouble and that is that it happens & just not showing it & ignoring it doesn't make it go away and not happen in real life. That's not saying that the actual act isn't 100% wrong and put me in a room with someone who has done  such a thing to a child & only one of use would be walking out.

Okay fire away people.

No fire from me.
But then I am a real featherweight with any violence on TV, so I'm used to most viewers not minding stuff that bothers me.
If it's not just gratuitous, I squint my eyes so I can't really see it until it's over. 
If it is just gratuitous, I turn off the show.
These torture-of-childlike-character scenes seemed to lean a bit into gratuitous territory, but not entirely:

1. Was it necessary to the story
   and/or did it
2. Draw attention to a larger social issue that the viewers might not otherwise think about trying to change?

I don't think the torture scenes met either of those justifications sufficiently, but I can see how some might think differently.
As I mentioned either upthread or in an earlier thread:
I think Seth's long time of working with animation probably conditions him to almost seeing such violence as an elemental part of a show. 

[tennisgurl]

I should have guessed she would show up, but I still gasped when Dolly herself appeared! I love that her music and her sweet simple mountain girl wisdom has led to sweeping social change on an alien world, I am sure Dolly (the non hologram one) would be proud. The episodes are getting longer and longer, this one especially was a real rollercoaster, so much happened. The Moclans getting kicked out of the Union has seemed somewhat inevitable for awhile now, but it really leaves both the Union and the Moclans in a bad position with the Kaylon's continued attacks. Now the Union, the Moclans, and the Krill are all on their own, although in sheer numbers it seems like the Union still has the edge, I wouldn't be surprised if the Moclans show up asking for help if they start attacking their home world. 

I can understand Heveena feeling like she had to cross some lines for the greater good, but enlisting Topa was not only very morally questionable, it also seems like a pretty poor strategy. Are they never allowed off their planet or to have any contact with the outside world other than the Orville and the Moclans? I would think that there would be plenty of adults out there who would have been happy to help, adults who are way more qualified to handle spy missions than a kid. At least she came around, and her people have joined the Union and can dance by the fire to Jolene in peace. Kids, if an adult pulls you aside and says they want to tell you something or want you to do something but not to tell your parents or other trusted adults, nine times out of ten, you leave right away. 

I can buy Klyden coming around, having your kid being tortured and almost murdered by your government does certainly put things into perspective. Hopefully he talks to a therapist too to deal with his stuff, I can imagine he, Bortus, and Topa still have some major things to talk about, but him inviting Kelly to stay for dinner is a nice step in the right direction. I am glad that he finally came around, even if it took something really extreme for him to realize how wrong he was.

Edited July 22, 2022 by tennisgurl

[DoctorAtomic]

I replayed 'There you go, Sherlock,' three times. Excellent line reading. Also cool that Sherlock Holmes is still known in 2422. 
It's interesting how they kind of have Kelly woven into the Moclan storylines. 

'You didn't fail me, it just took a little longer' was a brilliant line too. 

Heveena was way manipulative with Topa to take advantage of a child that's gone through so much. 'Don't tell your father' is always a red flag in any year. That's unfair to put on a child and a huge risk to the entire colony if she's making this decision unilaterally. I commend the show for tarnishing the 'hero' Heveena. Again, it's very Babylon 5 and Farscape to me more than Trek. I liked that Gordon ripped into her. 'Bending over backwards to accommodate their bullshit'. 

When Heveena walked into the simulator, I said, 'don't even tell me Dolly Parton is going to walk in'. 

Also great to see Bruce again, and I really liked seeing the Union as a whole body. 

I liked how they went for the Top Gun move in the fire fight. 

I totally lost it when Klyden showed up and said 'her'. 

On 7/21/2022 at 1:53 AM, phalange said:

Moclus getting kicked out of the Union is going to have huge impacts on the war with the Kaylon. Not just for the Union, but Moclus will also be vulnerable without Union protection if the Kaylon suddenly decide to pay their planet a visit.

I was really surprised they expelled them from the Union. Again, I've said that the Union is fairly new in comparison to the Federation on Star Trek. iirc, and I don't know for sure because the prior seasons were like 50 years ago, but Moclus was providing critical raw materials to the Union. On the other hand, there is more of an impetus for the Union to boldly go out and find more allies. 

I lost it when Klyden said 'may I see her'. On the Sens8 movie when the FBI came into the wedding and it was 'That's the first time my father called me his daughter'. I was out. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

OK, time for part two of my ranting:

I know the show is "The Orville" and everything, but really, the Union picked the absolute worst ship to assign to this mission and Ed picked the absolute worst two members of his crew. It was Topa's court case on Moclus that brought Helveena out of the closet, thanks to the Orville. It was the Orville's intervention that allowed the colony to grow and IIRC Kelly and Bortus literally fought Moclans who were trying to make the female Moclans surrender. Just recently, it was Bortus's child and the not-very-plausible-denial situation of Isaac allowing Topa to have her gender restoration surgery that caused another diplomatic blowup with the Moclans. Assigning someone who literally fought Moclan soldiers when they're trying to pretend they're one big happy Union family and the father of such a controversial figure is basically a big middle finger to Moclus. And Ed saying Topa can go on the mission when she literally had just been the subject of controversy and when he and Kelly just got dressed down for allowing the gender restoration surgery shows spectacularly poor judgment on his part when he knows how at a minimum her presence would be aggravating. Yes, it would be nice for Topa to spend time with other Moclan females at some point. Maybe wait until after the inspection with the notoriously thin-skinned, pissed off guys, though? Or set up a pen-pal relationship.

Speaking of the absolute worst, Charly had basically one line and she still couldn't deliver it at all convincingly. I really think pulling a random person off the street could have done a better job of being shocked that Ed was ordering a treaty violation.

I can buy that the Moclans didn't detect the shuttle because it was cloaked. I can suspend disbelief that the Moclans did not detect Bortus and Kelly on the ground traversing what had to have been some distance from the facility (presumably at least a mile) despite them having tech to see biosigns because....reasons. Getting the drop on a single sentry and gaining access to the facility, sure (even though again, they probably should have higher-tech defenses than a single sentry and maybe a keycard). But once they were inside the facility and there's phaser fire, nobody sets off an alarm? They don't surround Bortus and Kelly with their superior numbers? Kelly shoots the one main bad guy but not the torturer? The only reason she did that was so it could be justified when Bortus kicked the shit out of him, not out of any in-story reason. Torturer guy was still a threat to grab a weapon or otherwise impede their escape and needed to be taken out. (I'm assuming all these people are being hit with heavy stun rather than actual kill shots).

I know that the show is trying to make a point about how killing should be avoided, but I at least think that isn't always true. Also, in terms of orders, it seems to me that Bortus and Kelly are way beyond their Union authority in carrying out their rescue mission. They have invaded the territory of a Union member then-in-good-standing, attacked a half-dozen (at that point) of its personnel. I too wish that Bortus pulled a Worf-killing-Duras moment and just was like "You're not the boss of me, Kelly." I imagine if the show gets a fourth season, Torture Guy will be back with an artificial eye. Which I guess raises the question: how did he lose his other eye and why given the state of medical science in this universe hasn't it been restored? (I know, the same could be said of, say Geordi or Martok in TNG/DS9, and the fact is there is no in-universe reason why Geordi would have a VISOR rather than cloned eyes other than the TNG people wanted to make a statement about people who were differently abled.)

Bortus and Kelly manage to traverse the distance between the base and the ship with an injured Topa without anyone from the base catching them? The three Moclan pilots who eventually engage in a dogfight don't get airborne before Bortus and Kelly get in their ship? Bortus and Kelly don't turn on their ship's cloak so that they can escape undetected? Good thing Gordon put on Top Gun that one movie night. 

Again, I know that we love face-to-face drama, but the notion that Bortus, Kelly and Topa could have gotten from wherever they were to Earth in person at just the nick of time is a pretty big stretch. 

And maybe I'm just too cynical, but there is no way the Union would vote to expel Moclus based on this incidents and the ones leading up to this. Punish them, maybe. Force them to throw up some scapegoats. Let them save face by pretending the people who did this were rogue agents acting without the knowledge of the main Moclan government. 

WRT the Kelly/Bortus ship tease, I have mixed feelings. They are probably my two favorite Orville characters, but on the other hand, I could see the writers botching things. I also think that love triangles can get old, and this would potentially introduce a Ed/Kelly/Bortus and a Kelly/Bortus/Klyden triangle. I am cynical enough that I tend to doubt that there will be a S4 of the show to explore things.

[ottoDbusdriver]

On 7/22/2022 at 4:00 AM, paulvdb said:

It was by far the longest episode of the season and more than 10 minutes longer than the previous longest episodes. So it's not surprising that it would feel long because it actually was.

They should have tightened up this episode in the editing bay, it did drag in spots.  While of course leaving the Dolly Parton portion completely intact.  :)

[Racj82]

On 7/21/2022 at 11:38 AM, Zaffy said:

I do not like TV or movies showing torturing children. 
There were some interesting things in this episode, some big plot holes...but the whole Interrogation part frakked up everything for me.

We are not in the Middle Ages but in the era of space travelling and I cannot accept that   there are no drugs that work as truth serums or there is no technology to record everything Heveena was saying to Topa.
What was the point of watching a child suffering a torture session?? that Union would only break their alliance with the Moclans after learning they torture kids for info? That Moclans are sadistic monsters? Or to shock the audience a la GOT (which had no issue burning little girls alive)? 

Sorry but this is an episode I will pretend it never existed.

And please, stop talking in the series like if its 2022. For Christ's shake.

Respectfully, I must say this didn't bother me. Not to your degree. For me, it was successful in their showing just how low they will go. The problem that some people will let a lt of shitty things slide for the "greater good" . Everyone has their breaking point. We saw multiple people continually losing patience with this deal that was made. After that meeting, people couldn't put their heads in the sand anymore.

[Commando Cody]

I unfollowed the Orville. I usually keep current on episodes and watch them when they are released. I was a couple of days late this time around and their tweets spoiled the Dolly Parton reveal.  Now I wonder if I would have figured it out or if it would have been a surprise. I'm leaning toward surprise. 

I didn't recognize the song at first but then I realized the women were dancing to 'Joline'. Interesting interpretation of the music. 

Topa was an outsider. She should not have been approached with this task. Whenever someone says "Don't tell your parents", that's exactly the time to go tell your parents. Heveena should not have said anything to her.  I also think the Moclans figured it out way too fast. They already were suspicious that Heveena told her who the contact was. I was already sure the Moclans were going to take her, but I didn't know the reason.  

I like Bortus and Kelly, but not Bortus with Kelly.  I didn't see the chemistry. I've never seen any chemistry other than a friendship.  

[legaleagle53]

Ninety minutes? The time flew by for me!

A fantastic episode -- and yes, it was so satisfying to see the male Moclans finally get called out for their hypocritical bullcrap and kicked out of the Union once it had been irrefutably demonstrated that they had finally gone too far. I seriously hope they get their asses kicked by the Kaylons at some point as the penalty for their hubris!

[legaleagle53]

On 7/21/2022 at 8:48 PM, Yeah No said:

Bortus going after the torturer made me root for him to kill him, but I'm not so sure he did.  The guy was still alive when they left, although gravely injured.  He knows the name of the smuggler.  Not good.

And Bortus deliberately fried his brain. I'd be surprised if Torture Moclan even remembers his OWN name now, much less that of the mole.

[Mr. R0b0t]

The Moclans are analogues for Saudi Arabia in this world.  How many human rights violations are you willing to put up with to maintain a particular world order?  It was nice to see the Union sever ties.  I will co-sign some of the head-scratching moments.  How did they know Topa was brought into the smuggling operation? Was the blue luminite actually a spy drone? If you are in a cloaked ship, why park 2000 meters away?  Why knock out a guard and leave him laying at the door?  Why does your CIA Moclan black site have so many hallways and so few rooms?  Still love the show, just have to turn off the brain.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Am not a fan of using "female" as a noun, even in science fiction. I understand why the Moclans spoke that way because they considered it an insult. However, the crew of the Orville are a different story, IMO.

Bortus told Topa to stay on the ship but she got off. He said she knew better than to wander around in a strange place alone. Yet she did and got kidnapped. IMO they should not have taken a child on a potentially dangerous mission no matter how much she wanted to go.

Dolly Parton!

Ditto comments upthread, how does an adult use an innocent child as a political pawn, or torture an innocent child? After they rescue Topa, the Orville should nuke that planet from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. (But transport the sanctuary to another safe planet first.) 😉

Bortus was like, "And for torturing my daughter, let me wreck your other eyeball too!" (BTW, the actor who portrayed the torturer showed up on reddit's episode thread. He was well-received.)

Gotta give those a-hole Moclans points for boldness. They'd just lie and brazen their way out of anything, until they were finally caught. I'm surprised they didn't try to claim Topa's bruises were self-inflicted, or done by the Union.

Aw, Klyden is a good, loving parent after all. Too bad it took Topa going through such horror for him to see the light.

Quote

Note: The planned next episode for Season 3, "Sympathy for the Devil", was never filmed due to COVID restrictions, so Seth Macfarlane is releasing it as an Ebook and an Audiobook on July 19, 2022.

I have it cued up to download from my digital library. (Not loving the title though. Every time I come across that song on the radio or in a TV show I immediately change the channel. I get the irony of the song but its title creeps me out.)

[DoctorAtomic]

I did like Ed calling out Heveena "don't mistake advantageous opportunism for morality."

I'm paraphrasing but they had some really killer lines in this episode. 

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I did like Ed calling out Heveena "don't mistake advantageous opportunism for morality."
I'm paraphrasing but they had some really killer lines in this episode. 

Heh:

On 7/21/2022 at 2:53 PM, shapeshifter said:

There were a couple of "interesting" turns of phrase in this episode (more like "say what?" phrases), one of which was:

• [ED TO HAVEENA] I respect your struggle. I really do. But don't advertise tactical opportunism as pious morality, because that's when you lose me.

Can someone here edit this phrase for the viewing audience? It sounds like it was copied from somebody's college Poli Sci notes. 
And then maybe can you get a job writing for the show? Tell 'em shapeshifter sent you.

[RedHawk]

I was telling Bortus and Kelly to close the door and lock the shuttle craft! They just left the door open. I hoped after the tense meetup with the Mocclans Bortus would reach and "click" it shut with some sort of remote, and stare right in their faces. Season 1 and 2 Orville would have had him do that.

Of course Kelly fell trying to jump the ravine. She didn't get a run-and-go! She backed up like only a foot and a half and then jumped for it.

I'm glad Klyden is back but still waiting for him to finally tell his daughter he was also born female. There's hope to see his character evolve more now that he's accepted her. Here for it.

Topa is a "child" but she seems more mature (and apparently ages faster) than a typical Earth child, so she seems more like an older teenager. I would have preferred to see her return to the Orville and become part of the female Mocclan "underground railroad" for an episode or two.

Gordon could have stopped by the sick bay and visited Topa as she was recovering, to round out that little plotline. Will she ever know that he stood up against the male Mocclans?

On 7/21/2022 at 11:48 PM, Yeah No said:

I knew Klyden would wake up and come back but this was much sooner than anyone could have anticipated.  I suppose I could buy it happening after this situation but a little more lead up to it would have had greater impact from a dramatic POV and more believability.  We didn't get to see the internal change in Klyden that would make it believable.  But OK, I'm going with it anyway since the situation was so compelling it's possible it might have woken him up but I still think it would have taken more time.  I'm still holding to my prediction that he may eventually consider having the same operation as Topa did to reverse his sex change back to female.  We'll see.

Yes, while it's too soon for him to believably choose to reverse his sex change, I also feel like might happen eventually. In earlier seasons he was at times portrayed as the more "feminine" of the two, so maybe we can see him explore what "male" and "female" truly mean to him. I want the show to continue with this family's story. I also won't be surprised if Bortus finds himself attracted to Kelly, and she to him.

Edited July 27, 2022 by RedHawk
Changed wording regarding Topa's age vs maturity level

[shapeshifter]

27 minutes ago, RedHawk said:

Topa is a "child" but she seems more mature (and apparently ages faster) than a typical Earth child, so even if she's only 12 or so she's more like an older teenager. I would have preferred to see her return to the Orville and become part of the female Mocclan "underground railroad" for an episode or two.

Gordon could have stopped by the sick bay and visited Topa as she was recovering, to round out that little plotline. Will she ever know that he stood up against the male Mocclans?

As much as I detest the Rapidly Aging Star Child Syndrome, since we've clearly got Topa in that mode, is that where the whole Topa-has-a-crush-on-Gordon and Gordon-stood-up-for-Topa thing is going??? Is she going to be recast as a Gordon's age-appropriate Moclan?
If so, too bad, because I really like (I think 20-year-old) Imani Pullman as Topa. But Scott Grimes, who plays Gordon, is 51, and that just doesn't work for me on screen with Imani Pullman as Topa if they were to become a couple after she rapidly ages, even with Moclan makeup.

Edited July 27, 2022 by shapeshifter

[Chicago Redshirt]

9 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

As much as I detest the Rapidly Aging Star Child Syndrome, since we've clearly got Topa in that mode, is that where the whole Topa-has-a-crush-on-Gordon and Gordon-stood-up-for-Topa thing is going??? Is she going to be recast as a Gordon's age-appropriate Moclan?
If so, too bad, because I really like (I think 20-year-old) Imani Pullman as Topa. But Scott Grimes, who plays Gordon, is 51, and that just doesn't work for me on screen with Imani Pullman as Topa if they were to become a couple after she rapidly ages, even with Moclan makeup.

I think we are suppose to think of Topa as about three chronologically but the equivalent of a 14-year-old human or so in terms of maturity. Does that mean that in another year chronologically, she will be considered mature enough to date in some quarters because she will have the intellectual and physical development of at least an 18-year-old by then? It seems squicky to me that a true adult might date someone who is chronologically 4 (as it did in Voyager with Kes/Neelix).

Given that Seth has an apparent propensity for dating women 20-30 years younger than him IRL, I don't think he would have a problem pairing a 20-something with a 50-something.

I would have enjoyed a "Gordon, what are your intentions to my daughter" type line like Data's in TNG's "The Offspring."

[RedHawk]

22 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

As much as I detest the Rapidly Aging Star Child Syndrome, since we've clearly got Topa in that mode, is that where the whole Topa-has-a-crush-on-Gordon and Gordon-stood-up-for-Topa thing is going??? Is she going to be recast as a Gordon's age-appropriate Moclan?
If so, too bad, because I really like (I think 20-year-old) Imani Pullman as Topa. But Scott Grimes, who plays Gordon, is 51, and that just doesn't work for me on screen with Imani Pullman as Topa if they were to become a couple after she rapidly ages, even with Moclan makeup.

When I mentioned that Gordon could have stopped by sickbay to visit Topa, I wasn't suggesting the beginning of a romantic relationship but that Gordon would show her he cares about her (in a brotherly way) and ease her embarrassment at being "turned down" when she made her feelings for him known. 

Edited July 28, 2022 by RedHawk
Corrected word order

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, RedHawk said:

When I mentioned that Gordon could have stopped by sickbay to visit Topa, I wasn't suggesting the beginning of a romantic relationship but that Gordon would show her he cares about her (in a brotherly way) and ease her embarrassment at being "turned down" when she made her for him feelings known. 

Oh, yes. That is what I thought you meant.
But then I was imagining --given Moclans fast aging-- that when Gordon poked his head in the door he'd be surprised to see a much taller, very hot looking, seemingly 30-something-year-old Topa.
IDK.
I wonder how old Bortus and Klyden are in Earth years?

[Jynnan tonnix]

On 7/26/2022 at 10:43 PM, RedHawk said:

I was telling Bortus and Kelly to close the door and lock the shuttle craft! They just left the door open. I hoped after the tense meetup with the Mocclans Bortus would reach and "click" it shut with some sort of remote, and stare right in their faces. Season 1 and 2 Orville would have had him do that.

Of course Kelly fell trying to jump the ravine. She didn't get a run-and-go! She backed up like only a foot and a half and then jumped for it.

I'm glad Klyden is back but still waiting for him to finally tell his daughter he was also born female. There's hope to see his character evolve more now that he's accepted her. Here for it.

Topa is a "child" but she seems more mature (and apparently ages faster) than a typical Earth child, so she seems more like an older teenager. I would have preferred to see her return to the Orville and become part of the female Mocclan "underground railroad" for an episode or two.

Gordon could have stopped by the sick bay and visited Topa as she was recovering, to round out that little plotline. Will she ever know that he stood up against the male Mocclans?

Yes, while it's too soon for him to believably choose to reverse his sex change, I also feel like might happen eventually. In earlier seasons he was at times portrayed as the more "feminine" of the two, so maybe we can see him explore what "male" and "female" truly mean to him. I want the show to continue with this family's story. I also won't be surprised if Bortus finds himself attracted to Kelly, and she to him.

I'm not sure exactly why, but in those earlier seasons, when Klyden had his more nurturing moments, he kept reminding me, in some weird way, of Nathan Lane in The Birdcage. I don't even think it was specifically in or after the episode where we learn he was born female, but just something about his build, mannerisms, and even his face.

[DoctorAtomic]

It can be both. Moclan does supply critical raw materials to the Union, and Gordon correctly pointed out that they're always bending over backwards for them. 

[Affogato]

I just watched this, so the show isn't required watching for me at this point, but I will watch it all eventually.

You would think the writer would lay out an outline and then go over it the next day, looking for inconsistencies and stupid plotholes. Mind you, I don't think this matters in terms of what the show is doing, but it would make it a better show and it wouldn't hurt the message if it made more sense.

As others have mentioned I was annoyed they would send Topa and Bortus and the Orville on this mission. I get Topa would want to see another female of her species, but if they were trying to keep the peace, why push the Moclan buttons?

Was the blue luminary a robot bug?

In fairness to the torturers, Topa was guilty. I don't think they had to torture her to get information, I think they just hate females that much.  I'm glad Klyden wasn't one of them.

I would guess their arrangement would be broken if they were found to be moving girls to another location. I would guess the Moclan prejudice would lead groups to seek out peaceful colonies of women and wipe them out, which is why the current one needs protections and treaties. I have no idea why they don't close the door of their shuttle, which (if nothing else) is now full of native insects.

I think  this show is pretty much a your-mileage-may-vary soapbox for Seth McFarlane, like his other shows, and to expect it to be anything else is to set yourself up for disappointment.  I'm enjoying it a lot more than I thought I would.

[RedHawk]

My first thought was that the secret site would be another colony established by Moclan men who found themselves attracted to Moclan women, and in a type of bride stealing, were fulfilling their desire to have Moclan wives. And some of the wives would be happy with their men. (There’s a Star Trek: The Next Generation story similar to that.) I didn’t mind the way this story unfolded though, and the torture of Topa showed us the intensity of the Moclan anti-female prejudice. Klyden really did have to overcome a lifetime of cultural conditioning as well as an induced self-hatred and shame that Bortus would not feel nor easily understand. I really hope we see more of Klyden’s evolving feelings and connection to his daughter. 

Edited July 31, 2022 by RedHawk

[Affogato]

6 hours ago, RedHawk said:

My first thought was that the secret site would be another colony established by Moclan men who found themselves attracted to Moclan women, and in a type of bride stealing, were fulfilling their desire to have Moclan wives. And some of the wives would be happy with their men. (There’s a Star Trek: The Next Generation story similar to that.) I didn’t mind the way this story unfolded though, and the torture of Topa showed us the intensity of the Moclan anti-female prejudice. Klyden really did have to overcome a lifetime of cultural conditioning as well as an induced self-hatred and shame that Bortus would not feel nor easily understand. I really hope we see more of Klyden’s evolving feelings and connection to his daughter. 

Your thought is a good one, although not quite in line with the main message, I think.  It could be a story on its own, though.

[Dobian]

Dolly Parton was a kick.  Still looks great, still sings as great as ever.

I liked the medieval instrumental version of Jolene at the village dinner.

The cattle prod to the eye socket was dope.

I never liked Klyden, and I hated the way he left things.  But it was great seeing him return and make amends with Topa.  A very touching scene.  Nice to see him turn a corner, also inviting Kelly to stay for dinner.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Dobian

[Ottis]

On 7/21/2022 at 8:14 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Pretty good episode, but as usual, some head-scratchers, nitpicks and miscellaneous thoughts for me.

Very few comments for this ep vs. others. I am just catching up to Orville, so interesting to see what garnered attention and what didn't.

This felt like "cause episode" to me. I walked in and out of the room and missed bits of dialogue, but it was all pretty predictable because it started from a POV, and it ended at the same POV.

It was bizarre that Topa was mature enough to be aware of the Moclan issue of male/female, and aware enough to thank the colony's founder for supporting her, could withstand torture for a long while - and yet not realize she is a bit young for a human male of Gordon's age, or even think about that or other factors (i.e. rank, diplomacy, etc.).

Also, Mr. Stick-in-the-eye will be back.

The most interesting part of the ep was that Bortus and Klyden renounced their citizenship. A little surprised Bortus welcomed back Klyden so quickly, especially after almost having a moment with Kelly. Personally, I'd choose Kelly.

Clearly Orville falls on the side of '"what is right is right," even if it costs the Union the war. It's a great sentiment, and I'm sure the writers will make it work out, but really, at this point the Union should be toast.

On 7/30/2022 at 5:16 PM, Affogato said:

You would think the writer would lay out an outline and then go over it the next day, looking for inconsistencies and stupid plotholes.

On 7/30/2022 at 5:16 PM, Affogato said:

I think  this show is pretty much a your-mileage-may-vary soapbox for Seth McFarlane,

You answered your own question.

Edited August 8, 2022 by Ottis

[Jynnan tonnix]

22 hours ago, Ottis said:

The most interesting part of the ep was that Bortus and Klyden renounced their citizenship. A little surprised Bortus welcomed back Klyden so quickly, especially after almost having a moment with Kelly. Personally, I'd choose Kelly.

This part of your post made me wonder whether Klyden's reverting to female might be in the cards, since an attraction to females doesn't seem to be off the table for Bortus. I know that thus far, Klyden not been shown as having any resentment toward having been altered to fit in with his society (at least that I remember), but now that his mind is opening up, who knows? It might bring about a smoother dynamic between the two of them if everyone can find their authentic selves.