S03.E03: Mortality Paradox

[AnimeMania]

The Orville crew makes a new discovery.

Original Airdate: June 16, 2022 

[Chicago Redshirt]

The first decent outing of this new season, with actual contributions from just about everyone on cast.

So now we have an Orville equivalent of the Q. I think we could have used a good Picard-style amount of indignation as to running them through the maze that they did. The one line didn't do it justice. I continue to suspect the show would just be fundamentally better if it killed Ed off. 

It's kind of messed up that the aliens didn't just ask to experience mortality. And of course, there's not really a good in-universe reason why the characters would be envisioning life in a 21st Century high school or airplane. 

The humor was back to what I expected, thankfully. 

Every Charly line, and in particular, her sitting in the captain's chair, was cringe.

This episode brought to mind such TNG episodes as The Royale (our heroes are trapped in a 20th century casino based on a pulp novel because aliens recreated it thinking that it was how an Earth person wanted to live), Allegiance (aliens hold Picard and others to test concepts around authority), and Liaisons (aliens play mind games with Picard, Troi and Worf to get a better understanding of love, aggression and desire), which aren't particularly good ones to crib from, and Future Imperfect (Riker thinks he has ended up in the future with amnesia), which was pretty good.

[phalange]

Best of the season so far. It had a very Twilight Zone-y feel to it. The scene on the plane reminded me of that one TZ episode, Nightmare at 30,000 Feet.

I like that they brought back the aliens from the Kelly-worshiping planet (which still doesn't have a name as far as I know). Considering where the planet was technologically when they returned Isaac, their advancement to immortality makes sense, especially if it's been 50,000 years for them. Still a shitty thing to do to someone without their consent, however. If they wanted to experience mortality so badly, they could just ask for volunteers to participate in a simulation. They left on good terms with the Union at the end of "Mad Idolatry" so tricking them is unnecessary. But maybe with immortality comes a lack of morals. 

As for why those particular settings, she said they pulled information from their memories, so for Ed, Kelly, and Gordon, it was probably memories of 20th and 21st century pop culture that they've seen.

[AnimeMania]

If Ed left "Charly in Charge" why was LaMarr the one running the ship. LaMarr seemed really rude to everybody. 

[shapeshifter]

I'm seriously considering quitting this show.

Showing so many near-death experiences was not necessary, and not very interestingly done, IMO.
I've seen shows that took good advantage of Hulu's or other streamers' long leashes for episode duration, with some episodes running over an hour long when the plot needed extra time, while others were barely over half an hour.
Here it just seems like they're filling up time.

I took a couple of notes on other bits that bugged, but I can forgive those.

I've gone from watching the episode when it dropped (midnight here) to watching the next day. 
Next week I'll wait until I have nothing else to do.

I miss The Orville that was seasons 1 and 2. 

[marketdoctor]

I wasn't sure why Ed wasn't madder at the aliens.

I fan-thought Ed's reaction was some combination of:

1.  He was still shocked by everything he'd been through.

2.  He knew on some primal, survival level that the aliens were extremely powerful, and could destroy him if he annoyed them.

3.  Kelly made a mistake that screwed up their history (as the alien reminded them), so this was a little bit of payback.

4.  The alien was, by human standards, very pretty, and Ed is not entirely above his feelings.

5.  "Yeah, we just didn't want to spend time explaining, even though we don't have time limits we used to have."

6.  I overlooked something.

If I had to guess, I'd say it was mostly 1, 2, and 4, but that's a guess.

Fake-Charley not trusting Fake-Isaac was some good detail.

[shapeshifter]

I love your post☝️, @marketdoctor (heh, the ❤️ icon actually does denote "love" now) except:

• 32 minutes ago, marketdoctor said:

  Fake-Charley not trusting Fake-Isaac was some good detail.

Having "Fake" Charley not trusting "Fake" Isaac within the simulation made me think it was not a simulation, and I do think we were supposed to know it was, right? Or was it a triple fake-out? As in:

1. Fake out the characters
2. After the characters were already onto the simulations
3. And, fake out the audience

In other words, it seemed to me that the writers were too clever by half.
I can imagine the writers sitting around a table or on a Zoom enjoying the idea of having a fake-out within a fake-out. But then somebody should have put the kibosh on it because it's just confusing.

IDK.

Maybe it's just grumpy old shapeshifter who's confused and annoyed by it.
Everyone else here seemed to like it.
But, then again, there aren't very many here.👀

[Chicago Redshirt]

10 hours ago, phalange said:

As for why those particular settings, she said they pulled information from their memories, so for Ed, Kelly, and Gordon, it was probably memories of 20th and 21st century pop culture that they've seen.

Right, but how the aliens got to these particular scenarios doesn't really explain why the aliens chose these particular scenarios of all the millions of memories that the crew has from their present and of things that actually happened to them where they were near death, things that just exist in their imaginations from entertainment etc.  

6 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

If Ed left "Charly in Charge" why was LaMarr the one running the ship. LaMarr seemed really rude to everybody. 

Ed left LaMarr in charge. Charly acted as a placeholder for the time it took for LaMarr to make his way from Engineering to the bridge. It makes little sense that there was not someone who outranked her still on the bridge to keep the captain's chair warm for those five minutes, but whatevs.

I dunno if it was the writing for LaMarr, the actor or the director, but yeah, he tried to come off as authoritative but just seemed kind of a jerk. He also seemed to whiplash from going from "we need to see what happened and it's worth risking another rescue party" to "we can't risk any more people" pretty darn quick, especially when there was no apparent threat to the rescue party.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Chicago Redshirt

[cdnalor]

It struck me odd that Gordon described the school as being specifically 21st century rather than 20th, like he would know the difference.  That style of building has existed for at least 100 years and we're only starting the 21st century.  Who knows what schools will look like in 2050 and beyond?  Of course, the writers do it to let us know it's supposed to resemble our present day, but I think it would have been fun to make it a 50's or 80's stereotypical school.

The winding stairs that "Talla" climbs when she first arrives on the ship seemed anachronistic to me.  I would have expected some kind of, oh, I don't know, turbo-lift?  It just seemed out of place on a starship.  Of course when the power goes out, they'll come in handy.

I have to say, I'm not enamored of this series.  I know it's meant to be an homage to ST: NextGen, but it feels more like a rehash with some snarky dialogue sprinkled in and a bad word here and there.  When first announced, I thought this show would be more "Galaxy Quest", but it is what it is.

[Chaos Theory]

"I wish Claire was here. We could both use a brain scan." Said by no captain of Star Trek ever.  Which is by the way one of the reasons I love The Orville.   Ed Mercer knows that sometimes even he needs a good doctor and doesn't have to be dragged there kicking and screaming.  

Good to know even in the simulation Charly is still a dick to Isaac.    Makes it more realistic.   Charly may be new to the ship but she is bridge crew which makes her like fifth or sixth in charge and when Ed takes the top four members of the bridge crew currently on duty she is a good place holder.

Heck I was surprised the two red shirts that accompanied Claire and Isaac to the planet didn't die in the first five minutes after they landed. 

This was a really fun spooky action episode that related back to one of my favorite Kelly episodes and what happens to the planet that evolved thinking Kelly was a god until they grew into science.  I am definitely hoping to see them again.   

I agree with Ed's opinion on living forever.  I want to know what happens.  

This season has gotten a little deeper then the first too but that isn't a bad thing.  This show just seems to improve every season.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Chaos Theory

[shapeshifter]

22 minutes ago, cdnalor said:

The winding stairs that "Talla" climbs when she first arrives on the ship seemed anachronistic to me.  I would have expected some kind of, oh, I don't know, turbo-lift?  It just seemed out of place on a starship. 

Those anachronistic spiral stairs were one of the things I actually made a note about in my short list of things that bugged, so I guess I'm glad I'm not alone. But, good point about:

22 minutes ago, cdnalor said:

Of course when the power goes out, they'll come in handy.

And now I recall a podcast about designing a building so the elevators were hard to find in order to encourage people to use the stairs to be healthier. 

But Talla was fake Talla when she went up the spiral staircase, right? So maybe the anachronism was on purpose? Sort of a Chekhovian ananchronism?
And maybe the same with:

23 minutes ago, cdnalor said:

It struck me odd that Gordon described the school as being specifically 21st century rather than 20th, like he would know the difference.  That style of building has existed for at least 100 years and we're only starting the 21st century.  Who knows what schools will look like in 2050 and beyond?  Of course, the writers do it to let us know it's supposed to resemble our present day, but I think it would have been fun to make it a 50's or 80's stereotypical school.

Edited June 16, 2022 by shapeshifter

[Bort]

Those spiral stairs have been there since the beginning of the show.

I saw Elizabeth Gillies’s name at the beginning guest credits and spent the entire episode waiting for her to show up.

When they were in the high school cafeteria looking for someone “friendly,” I was totally yelling, “No Bortus, that’s the Mean Girl Table!”

[Zaffy]

One VERY LONG near death experience after another... again and again and not very scary enough
So boring... And I wasn't thrilled about the explanation either.
I think the big mistake this year was to make this show from 40mins to 1hour. They simply do not have the material to fill those extra 20mins and each episode feels longer than it should be.
And I keep getting the feeling that everyone except FIn's children actors seem to be bored as well.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Zaffy

[Chaos Theory]

I am whatever the opposite of a nitpicker is.    If an episode entertains me I won't even notice things that other people find insanely distracting.   I only start to nitpick when I get bored and so far this season hasn't bored me in the least.  Maybe because Gordon has acted like an adult and not alike a Bart Simpson on steroids.   I even enjoyed him on this episode because he actually does have a pretty good grasp on history and my guess they picked 21st century schools because the show got access to a 21st century school.   Its a simple as that.    No need to waste you fx budget to turn back the clock 100 years when you don't have to.  Instead use it on Moclan burial pods and that really cool monster whose wanted money from Gordon.    

The Talia thing could be easily explained as the fake Talia acted like real Talia because the exercise needed her to.    As for Ed not being mad I think it came down to a level of shock and survival instinct.  What was he going to do?  Stomp his foot in anger and lecture the alien?  He did make a point about experimentation.  But in the end he did what he needed to do to get his people back to his ship safely even if that meant taking the loss.

[Joimiaroxeu]

References to other Star Trek/Wars entities aside, right off the bat this episode read to me like The Orville meets The Twilight Zone. Or Black Mirror. (Ditto comments upthread, I was definitely waiting for an alien to appear outside the window of the airplane.)

Wait, The Orville meets Dynasty? Oh come on. Fallon Carrington 2.0 showing up to spout a bunch of pseudo-philosophical nonsense took me right out of the show. (But according to reddit, Elizabeth Gillies and Seth are good friends and she's worked with him on several productions.)

Seems to me the Orville's security systems must be lacking if a doppelgänger for one of the crew can walk right on board so easily.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Joimiaroxeu

[chitowngirl]

I felt like I was watching The Twilight Zone or Outer Limits…in the best way!

[Lugal]

This one makes me think of the more mindfuck-style Star Trek episodes like TOS "Spectre of the Gun" or TNG "The Royale" and "Frame of Mind" but I can definitely see the Twilight Zone comparisons.  I thought it was a pretty well done and I especially like the visual of the time frozen Kaelon ship as it collides with the Orville.  This felt more like the Orville I enjoyed before.  My quibble was at the end when Ed talks authoritatively about death meaning oblivion, when any honest person would admit we just don't know what happens.  This one clocked in at around an hour so it didn't feel as draggy as the previous two.

5 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I dunno if it was the writing for LaMarr, the actor or the director, but yeah, he tried to come off as authoritative but just seemed kind of a jerk. He also seemed to whiplash from going from "we need to see what happened and it's worth risking another rescue party" to "we can't risk any more people" pretty darn quick, especially when there was no apparent threat to the rescue party.

That didn't bother me as much as it felt like he realized they weren't learning anything new down there, and no point in risking the second landing party any longer.

44 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Seems to me the Orville's security systems must be lacking if a doppelgänger for one of the crew can walk right on board so easily.

When the aliens are a good 50000 years ahead of us and have the ability to make people see whatever they want them to see, it makes more sense to me.

5 hours ago, kariyaki said:

When they were in the high school cafeteria looking for someone “friendly,” I was totally yelling, “No Bortus, that’s the Mean Girl Table!”

So was I!  I also expected the other kids to get up and leave when they found out Malloy was the one that owed Randall money.  Although my favorite exchange was: "Are you High?"  "That's what I'm trying to figure out!"

[shapeshifter]

2 minutes ago, Lugal said:

my favorite exchange was: "Are you High?"  "That's what I'm trying to figure out!"

If there was a bit more dialog like this:

• [VIRTUAL HS STUDENT TO GORDON] "What are you, high?"
• [GORDON] "Possibly, that's what I'm trying to find out."

I wouldn't be so whiny.

But even the wry deadpan lines spoken by Scott Grimes as Gordon Malloy were a little too Dead. I noticed the director has mostly done somber dramas, so maybe that's it?

[dbklmt]

5 hours ago, kariyaki said:

I saw Elizabeth Gillies’s name at the beginning guest credits and spent the entire episode waiting for her to show up.

That Kelly worshiping episode was so long ago that I don't remember anything about it.  The Q like alien who I'm presuming is Elizabeth Gilles, did she or the aliens have a name? 

[Chicago Redshirt]

6 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

"I wish Claire was here. We could both use a brain scan." Said by no captain of Star Trek ever.  Which is by the way one of the reasons I love The Orville.   Ed Mercer knows that sometimes even he needs a good doctor and doesn't have to be dragged there kicking and screaming.  

Good to know even in the simulation Charly is still a dick to Isaac.    Makes it more realistic.   Charly may be new to the ship but she is bridge crew which makes her like fifth or sixth in charge and when Ed takes the top four members of the bridge crew currently on duty she is a good place holder.

Heck I was surprised the two red shirts that accompanied Claire and Isaac to the planet didn't die in the first five minutes after they landed. 

This was a really fun spooky action episode that related back to one of my favorite Kelly episodes and what happens to the planet that evolved thinking Kelly was a god until they grew into science.  I am definitely hoping to see them again.   

I agree with Ed's opinion on living forever.  I want to know what happens.  

This season has gotten a little deeper then the first too but that isn't a bad thing.  This show just seems to improve every season.

Star Trek captains don't have that adversarial a relationship with their doctors. Yes, there's a running thing with several of them blowing off annual physicals and the like or pushing themselves further than their respective doctors would deem healthy. But I don't think it would be noteworthy if one of them said something like I wish Dr. X were here to check us out if they were experiencing something as trippy as the Orville crew here.

As for Ed, I dunno. It's easy to say "I wanna live forever to see what happens" when you live in a 25th Century utopia and get to enjoy pretty much boundless privilege. But not everybody gets those upbeat experiences. And we're just once episode past Isaac's attempted suicide, so even when your material needs might be taken care of, there's the aspect of your mental and emotional ones. And as the unnamed aliens in this episode showed, there's a real danger of you friggin' losing touch with morality, common sense and basic humanity if you live too long. There could have been I think an interesting back-and-forth philosophically about stuff along those lines, but The Orville doesn't seem interested in attempting to go deep.

5 hours ago, kariyaki said:

When they were in the high school cafeteria looking for someone “friendly,” I was totally yelling, “No Bortus, that’s the Mean Girl Table!”

I love Bortus' comeback "You have a fivehead" enough that I'm not going to even care how he would have picked up that insult. (And the mean girl totally did!)

5 hours ago, Zaffy said:

And I keep getting the feeling that everyone except FIn's children actors seem to be bored as well.

It must be weird between Seth and the Charly actress dating and the Kelly and Gordon actors having been married, and possibly getting divorced at some point (I have no idea when it happened in relation to filming the season). Anyway, it seems like it would just make for a lot of potential awkward.

The only ones of the main cast that I might get a bored read from is the LaMarr actor. But then, I don't think he was particularly good to start with and I think they stopped playing to his strengths when they took him from being more comic relief with Gordon and put him into a serious role as the ship's engineer.

5 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

As for Ed not being mad I think it came down to a level of shock and survival instinct.  What was he going to do?  Stomp his foot in anger and lecture the alien?  He did make a point about experimentation.  But in the end he did what he needed to do to get his people back to his ship safely even if that meant taking the loss.

Yes, he's powerless in the face of the not-Q, but that shouldn't stop him from reacting more than he did. He didn't need to necessarily have the indignation that a typical ST captain would have had. But even to be more like, "Man, not cool, not cool." or to explain that they could have just asked for their help in understanding.

When you think about it, it falls apart even further. Literally there are millions of people dying every day in this universe. To experience what mortality means/is like, the not-Q could have gone anywhere, mind-melded with anyone. Instead, they specifically followed the Orville and subjected them to these experiments.

1 hour ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Seems to me the Orville's security systems must be lacking if a doppelgänger for one of the crew can walk right on board so easily.

In fairness, the not-Q seemingly could warp reality at will. Fooling a bunch of sensors and meatbags should be NBD.

16 minutes ago, dbklmt said:

That Kelly worshiping episode was so long ago that I don't remember anything about it.  The Q like alien who I'm presuming is Elizabeth Gilles, did she or the aliens have a name? 

She gave her name as Dinal, according to IMDB. She didn't name her race. 

[Bort]

23 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I love Bortus' comeback "You have a fivehead" enough that I'm not going to even care how he would have picked up that insult. (And the mean girl totally did!)

Gordon whispered it to him.

[Racj82]

3 hours ago, kariyaki said:

Gordon whispered it to him.

Yeah, they spent enough time on that to make it clear.

For me, Orville season 2 picked things up for me a notch in storytelling. Season 3 is feeling more like season 1 in that its just a show I enjoy watching. But, I'm not mad at that.

I don't really give a damn about Star Trek one way or the other so I bring none of that baggage in here. 

I enjoy Seth in the role. He's just playing it straight. That's all I want from him.

[thuganomics85]

For a second I thought that the hallucinations were about these particular characters fears and whatnot, but then I realized that it wouldn't make sense for one of them to be afraid of being bullied in a 20th/21st century high school or crashing in an "old-school" airplane, so they at least had me guessing over that.  It being due to an alien race that are now immortal and are worried that it will hamper their growth was a decent twist.  Bonus points to it being the same species that worshiped Kelly at one point due to some classic Orville-style screw ups.

Good to know Hallucination Charly is just as annoying as real Charly, heh.

I'm indifferent to LaMarr mainly, but the issue I have with him being in charge is the same issue I have with some of the other Treks at time: they really shouldn't have both the captain and first officer going on away missions together.  Structure wise, it would make sense for either one of the two to stay behind while the other one goes out, just in case crazy stuff does go down (which, naturally, always tends to happen on this show.)  Hell, all it can take is a freak shuttle accident and suddenly the majority of the leadership is done for.  Maybe a minor nitpick in the grand scheme of things, but that is something that always bugged me.

Glad to get more Bortus this time!  Especially Bortus dealing with mean girls.  I could watch an entire episode of just that!

Show is continuing to go all out with the visual effects.  Seth is making sure Hulu gives him the big budgets!

Not my favorite episode, but another one that reminded me a lot of classic Next Generation episodes, so I continue to be impress over how they can nail down that tone and style and yet mainly update it in a way that doesn't feel dated or out of place during this time period.

[Jynnan tonnix]

4 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

For a second I thought that the hallucinations were about these particular characters fears and whatnot, but then I realized that it wouldn't make sense for one of them to be afraid of being bullied in a 20th/21st century high school or crashing in an "old-school" airplane, so they at least had me guessing over that.  It being due to an alien race that are now immortal and are worried that it will hamper their growth was a decent twist.  Bonus points to it being the same species that worshiped Kelly at one point due to some classic Orville-style screw ups.

For me, the hallucinations seemed like spin-offs of common dreams, even if they took each scenario further. Dreams of being back in high school seem really common, even if they usually consist of realizing you have a final in a class you never went to, and all your books are in your locker but you can't remember the combination. The transition from one to another was done in a very effective way - dreamlike in that it sort of makes sense at the time while totally not, like going from the high school to the airplane. And I swear that long staircase held up by nothing is a common fixture of my more confusing dreams. Sea monsters and/or drowning also seem to be pretty common dreams, though I can't recall ever experiencing that one myself. It did all get a bit long-winded, but on the other hand, that was probably necessary to really set up the frustration of the crew before they finally decided not to fall for the bait again.

It was kind of weird that it all went back to that episode, though, because halfway through, when Ed has the head wound and Kelly is worried about it, I thought to myself that back then she had the equipment to cure a very similar wound on the little girl's head, which started the planet's whole trajectory, and I wondered why she didn't just fix Ed the same way. I wonder whether that detail was somehow purposeful?

In any case, I mostly really enjoyed the episode, which makes me happy since the first one of the season left me with such a bad taste in my mouth. The past couple have begun moving in the right direction, though, I think. I hope. 

I liked the little conversation at the end, too. I'm not much scared of dying, though it used to be something that terrified me no end. The older I get, though, and especially after having had a couple of surgeries, I just figure it will be very much like going under anasthesia. There one minute, and not there the next. But, of course, as Ed said, there is always part of you that just wants to be able to go on forever just to see what happens next. That I can identify with! And I just loved the twinkle in Seth's eye at that line.

[Quickbeam]

This episode felt weak and derivative to me. However it did look expensive. 

[tennisgurl]

I was watching this thinking "if this isn't the work of some silly looking aliens messing with people for shits and giggles, I'll be disappointed" and low and behold! That's some classic Trek right there, although I was surprised that it was those aliens that worshiped Kelly. This was a pretty good episode, I think they could have leaned into the surreal/creepy more, but I enjoyed the mindscrew and they are sure finding new ways to show off that bigger budget. 

Real or imagined, Charley is a pain.

I cant blame Ed for not calling the aliens out on their bullshit more, there really wasn't much more he could do. He presumably didn't want to piss off these super powerful aliens who could do anything to him and the crew, let alone if they decided to make enemies of the Union, all he could really do was tell the aliens that messing with people's minds for fun is probably not nice, and then head home while they still can. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

Several comments upthread mentioned this episode's similarity to the Twilight Zone. I had been thinking of this TZ episode:

but on another TV show forum someone mentioned this one:

Either way, pretty good inspiration IMO. I'd say most of the original TZ series still holds up 60 or so years later, and it is good fodder for more contemporary envisionings.

[Ottis]

On 6/16/2022 at 12:41 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

So now we have an Orville equivalent of the Q

I thought this, with disappointment, as soon as we saw the high school (also: Cat's Paw ep of TOS), followed quickly by noting we now know how the show will save some money after the special effects extravaganza of the first episode - it pulled a Picard, shooting basically IRL. Both thoughts saddened me.

And then there are the continuing juvenile anti-Kaylon antics of Charley, which play out like an after-school special.

Orville is bizarre. It is perfectly set up for Star Trek parody - and in season three, it insists on playing it straight. It is like watching cutting room floor episodes of ST:TNG from the 80s. Or Galaxy Quest, without the humor and inside jokes. Though the acting on GQ was much better than Orville. 

10 hours ago, Quickbeam said:

However it did look expensive.

I'm not sure why - most of it was shot in current IRL settings. The CGI creature wasn't great. 

It took me 4 tries to finish the first episode of this season. I quit watching episode 2 about halfway through and didn't go back. And this one I made it to the "plane crash" and lost interest. When Orville debuted I enjoyed it, but that has really waned. 

Edited June 17, 2022 by Ottis

[ketose]

Worst. Orville. Ever.

New horror. Nothing happens. The whole thing ends with an exposition by future Fallon Carrington. Luckily, bad is relative with The Orville, but I'd like to see actual plots to go along with the characters.

[DoctorAtomic]

On 6/16/2022 at 9:50 AM, marketdoctor said:

Kelly made a mistake that screwed up their history (as the alien reminded them), so this was a little bit of payback.

She was well intentioned though, no?. Healing the little girl was an act of compassion. She wasn't trying to create a religion. They took that and ran with it. I mean, as far as we know, no aliens came down to make our religions, and no one had a problem killing in the name of their own gods. That was one of my favorite episodes because when the advanced people came back and Ed asked if Isaac helped, they were all, "Issac's our boy; yeah we just outgrew religion". 

I didn't see the twist coming at the end, and I thoroughly enjoyed all the mind shananigans. It's a fair cheat that if it is all a simulation then why they would have been actually injured. When they were back on 'the ship' Ed's head was clean; no scar or cut. Everyone was well in-character. None of the away team really had anything to tip them off. I suppose why a high school or airplane, but they were being thrown around so much, there wasn't time to take stock until they got in the cave. I thought Ed might have been a little more ticked, but again, it was said, he probably was worn out, and there was a lot to process. Let's just get back to the ship and worry about it later. 

I thought they 'leaped' into people from the time period. In the bathroom, I was yelling at Gordon to look in the mirror, and I thought he would see another person. 

Bortus - fivehead. Brilliant. It totally landed. 

Edited June 18, 2022 by DoctorAtomic

[Yeah No]

On 6/16/2022 at 8:41 AM, shapeshifter said:

I'm seriously considering quitting this show.

Showing so many near-death experiences was not necessary, and not very interestingly done, IMO.
I've seen shows that took good advantage of Hulu's or other streamers' long leashes for episode duration, with some episodes running over an hour long when the plot needed extra time, while others were barely over half an hour.
Here it just seems like they're filling up time.

I took a couple of notes on other bits that bugged, but I can forgive those.

I've gone from watching the episode when it dropped (midnight here) to watching the next day. 
Next week I'll wait until I have nothing else to do.

I miss The Orville that was seasons 1 and 2. 

You pretty much speak for me here.  I only just watched the episode having to psych myself up for it and found myself freezing the frame to see how much was left after about 40 minutes.  

And I don't agree with the opinion that any of this episode was as good or comparable to classic Trek.  I'm not even a stickler for that or a purist either.  I felt that last season did more justice to classic Trek.  This just slapped horror on top of it gratuitously and OTT to the point of cringe.  It had too much action and not enough reflection or focus on the characters as any more than action figures.  Trek managed to combine both elements well.  While there were several elements in the episode that ran deep, there wasn't enough time to appreciate it all because there was just too much going on and not the best summation to tie it all up.

I knew some entity was messing with them pretty early on.  You mean to tell me that they couldn't realize that after the first few times?  Falling for the bait until it was beyond ridiculous, oh please.  They weren't even that stupid on TNG, LOL.  

And all those senior officers going together on an away mission was dumb too.  And then they sent another one after them when they got lost.  D'Oh!  Not too bright.

On 6/16/2022 at 12:32 PM, shapeshifter said:

Having "Fake" Charley not trusting "Fake" Isaac within the simulation made me think it was not a simulation, and I do think we were supposed to know it was, right? Or was it a triple fake-out? As in:

1. Fake out the characters
2. After the characters were already onto the simulations
3. And, fake out the audience

In other words, it seemed to me that the writers were too clever by half.
I can imagine the writers sitting around a table or on a Zoom enjoying the idea of having a fake-out within a fake-out. But then somebody should have put the kibosh on it because it's just confusing.

IDK.

Maybe it's just grumpy old shapeshifter who's confused and annoyed by it.
Everyone else here seemed to like it.
But, then again, there aren't very many here.👀

Haha, maybe it is just grumpy ol' shapeshifter because this part seemed directly lifted out of the TNG episode "Ship in a Bottle".  And that I appreciated because it was very clever although confusing.  It was confusing on TNG too.  And even some of the characters were faked out on that episode if you remember.  Data had to explain to them who was real and who was part of the holodeck simulation and that they were still on the fake Enterprise even after Picard ended the simulation.  And that explained it to me too.  But that Trek episode was so genius that I remember pondering it for weeks afterward when it first aired 30 years ago because there were so many layers and implications.  It just happened that I saw that episode last night before watching this or I may not have remembered how many parallels to this Orville episode are in it.  If they could have dispensed with some of the unnecessary distracting elements in this episode I probably could have appreciated this aspect more.  It just seemed to get buried or something that made it lose its oomph for me.  Maybe the episode was over-ambitious in some respects.  Again, too much focus on action, not enough on the storyline or the characters.

And I still miss the comedy and parody aspects.  I felt there was a better balance last season between the focus on the personal lives of the characters, the humor and the action.

[Meushell]

“We don’t throw people away.”

Is the show trying to make me hate Charly? I am trying to give her a chance, but her speech was unprofessional and just plain dumb.

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

knew some entity was messing with them pretty early on.  You mean to tell me that they couldn't realize that after the first few times?  Falling for the bait until it was beyond ridiculous, oh please.  They weren't even that stupid on TNG, LOL.  

In what way did they fall for the bait multiple times? From high to plane, it came unexpected. From plane to morgue, the plane was on the verge of falling. From morgue to stairs, they are in a room with potential zombies. From stairs to lake, they were over an abyss. If they had stayed, the “Kellians” would have just shook the stairs anyway. In following the light, they acknowledge what it might be. When that didn’t work, and when they finally weren’t being forced into another situation, they headed their own way. 

[Yeah No]

7 hours ago, Meushell said:

In what way did they fall for the bait multiple times? From high to plane, it came unexpected. From plane to morgue, the plane was on the verge of falling. From morgue to stairs, they are in a room with potential zombies. From stairs to lake, they were over an abyss. If they had stayed, the “Kellians” would have just shook the stairs anyway. In following the light, they acknowledge what it might be. When that didn’t work, and when they finally weren’t being forced into another situation, they headed their own way. 

I'm not talking about the situations that were forced upon them, although even there there was some opportunity to "just say no", like not proceed to the obvious next step if they're not being attacked by monsters.  That's arguable, but at least by the time they were standing at the edge of that lake with a flashing beacon right across it, and a raft that "just happened" to be there they had a choice, and it should have been more than obvious that it was a setup and that going along with it would only likely put them in more danger and give the entity responsible for it more opportunity to manipulate them.  At that point even Riker would have been yelling at the sky to whoever was behind all they had endured to just "knock it off".   But no, they didn't get to that point until later.  Maybe the show had to pad itself out to fill up the extra time, but I thought it made them look a little too stupid and at the very least if not stupid then not brave enough.  I'd expect more from them.  YMMV.

Also, by the time they reached that shoreline they should have realized that if whatever was behind this meant for them to die it probably would have killed them already.  Them assuming that they had any control over the outcome in the final analysis seemed naive to me.  Anything or anyone that powerful would probably not give them any power in that regard.  At that time they should have engaged in some introspection and figured that out.  At least that's how I feel it would have been better handled in a classic, more evolved future take on Trek, but what do I know.  🤷‍♀️

Edited June 18, 2022 by Yeah No

[blueray]

Definitely an interesting episode. I spoiled myself (by accident) on the twist as I realized that there was still 13 minutes left, which meant the ship wasn't the ship. Though the whole Talia thing I didn't call at all. But hindsight it make sense as she didn't elaborate on her parents, which seems like you would when someone asks you about your trip.

There were two "plot holes" that were bothering me throughout it which are related. One, where did their bodies go? When Isaac, Claire & redshirts look for them, they didn't find their bodies. Which should still be there as they never left the planet?

Two, they told them that they were investigating the "forest" and the school. I'm not sure why they seemed not to know this, when it was pretty obvious they left the shuttle? The only explanation I thought off, was maybe the alien messed with the sensors and comns. But why would she do that, as this would just lead to the Orville crew still searching for them? And didn't impact anything. 

Anyhow, as for the visions at first I thought they were for each person, but then I realized it doesn't quite fit. The high school would be Ed, but for some reason Gordon is attacked the plane should be Gordon, the morgue obvious is Boris, but there wasn't one for Kelly, unless it was the lake? Maybe I'm just seeing things that aren't there, but it would have been cool. 

Anyhow, I enjoyed the episode, even if I did call some stuff like the ship not being the ship. That trope is done in all of these type episodes. 

Edited June 18, 2022 by blueray

[blueray]

On 6/16/2022 at 3:04 PM, Chaos Theory said:

Heck I was surprised the two red shirts that accompanied Claire and Isaac to the planet didn't die in the first five minutes after they landed. 

I too thought they were goners lol.

[blueray]

Opps hit quote, but I was trying to fix Bortus not Boris lol.

Edited June 18, 2022 by blueray

[Yeah No]

1 hour ago, blueray said:

Anyhow, as for the visions at first I thought they were for each person, but then I realized it doesn't quite fit. The high school would be Ed, but for some reason Gordon is attacked the plane should be Gordon, the morgue obvious is Boris, but there wasn't one for Kelly, unless it was the lake? Maybe I'm just seeing things that aren't there, but it would have been cool. 

I had the same thoughts although why a high school from the 21st century if it was for Ed?  He didn't live in the 21st century.  I thought the lake was on Talla's planet.  Didn't she mention that?  And then either Ed or Gordon said something about how it couldn't be for real because if they were they'd all be dead from the increased gravity.  To which I thought, "You mean that was your first clue???"  LOL

Edited June 18, 2022 by Yeah No

[shapeshifter]

34 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

I had the same thoughts although why a high school from the 21st century if it was for Ed?  He didn't live in the 21st century. 

Silly question:
What is the date/time setting of the show?

[legaleagle53]

31 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Silly question:
What is the date/time setting of the show?

2422 or thereabouts.

[Commando Cody]

I thought this episode was pretty good.  However, I found the ending very disappointing.  When we last saw the people of the planet, they had become enlightened. This seemed now out of character for these enlightened people to use other people for their own personal gain.  Especially in that way. It was cruel. 

Every time Charly opens her mouth, she is a raving bitch-wad.  The first episode was almost steering towards making her the Orville's Wesley Crusher.  They have done nothing to make her character more likeable. She just bitches at/about Isaac all the time.  Even in the imaginary world. 

The doctor and Isaac were once again put together on a mission down on the planet. It made me wonder if they were going to be guided back together. 

I was glad to see a lighter episode. 

Oddly enough, I was thinking about the original Kelly is God episode during this episode.  

[SmithW6079]

23 hours ago, Ottis said:

Orville is bizarre. It is perfectly set up for Star Trek parody - and in season three, it insists on playing it straight. It is like watching cutting room floor episodes of ST:TNG from the 80s. Or Galaxy Quest, without the humor and inside jokes. Though the acting on GQ was much better than Orville. 

I think Fox marketed it as a Star Trek parody, because they only showed the funny bits in trailers during season 1, but it's never been a straight-up comedy or even a parody. I believe it was always intended to be an homage to Star Trek because Seth Macfarlane is a fan of Trek.

8 hours ago, blueray said:

Anyhow, as for the visions at first I thought they were for each person, but then I realized it doesn't quite fit. The high school would be Ed, but for some reason Gordon is attacked the plane should be Gordon, the morgue obvious is Boris, but there wasn't one for Kelly, unless it was the lake? Maybe I'm just seeing things that aren't there, but it would have been cool. 

I agree. Gordon's fear should have been the plane, and Ed probably high school. Since Talla was fake, it didn't really matter whether the last scenario was on her home planet or not. (I had thought it was odd that Talla didn't know what kind of creature lived in it if the lake was supposed to be on Xelaya,) In the episode where Alara programs the holodeck (or the Orville equivalent) with fears from the crew to test herself, wasn't Kelly's fear falling or darkness or something like that? Being pulled into a deep lake would qualify.

As a side note, I much prefer Talla to Alara as security chief. I like the actress better and she fits the role as security chief much better than Halston Sage ever did. 

I figured out pretty early that it was probably some advanced alien species controlling the events, but the TOS episode "Shore Leave" sprung to mind first: that it was a pleasure planet but the alien race didn't understand humans enough to differentiate fear and pleasure. That it was the Kelly-worshipping interphasing planet was a nice touch, but when the representative started talking about their past, I thought for sure she was going to say that they were doing this to get back at Kelly and the Orville for interfering with their planet's development and putting them through centuries of religious oppression because of her stupidity.

6 minutes ago, Commando Cody said:

Every time Charly opens her mouth, she is a raving bitch-wad.  The first episode was almost steering towards making her the Orville's Wesley Crusher.  They have done nothing to make her character more likeable. She just bitches at/about Isaac all the time.  Even in the imaginary world. 

Agreed. Seth needs to stop giving major roles to his girlfriend du jure. She's a bad actress and the character is unpleasant. She's mouthed off to her captain several times, and in this episode, she talked back to the officer in temporary command. She should be busted down to janitor on a garbage scow, not be navigator on an exploration ship like Orville. When John made the decision not to send another search party, she didn't whine again about not leaving crew behind. Her prejudice makes her a bad crew member and interferes with her work. Break up with her already, Seth, and write her off.

I think my definition of barren must be different from the Union's. To me, a barren rocky planet is totally devoid of everything, including an atmosphere.

[chaifan]

11 hours ago, blueray said:

Anyhow, I enjoyed the episode, even if I did call some stuff like the ship not being the ship. That trope is done in all of these type episodes. 

Yeah, it seemed pretty obvious to me that the getting rescued by Dr. Finn and gang was a big fake out, because that's what always happens when someone in sci-fi land is caught in a weird situation and then gets out - they're never really out the first time.

I'll admit I was a little bored by the sea monster part - ok, we get it - they're trapped in some sort of simulation projecting their biggest fears coming true.  OK, maybe not their specific fears, but fears in general.  I also thought the old-timey settings were weird - the school, the airplane.  But, I do understand the crew's taking it all seriously, since they saw early on that they could get injured, so I think they legit felt they could die in these scenarios.

Here's my quibble...  when they were fake-rescued, Gordon and Ed still had bruises and cuts.  But somehow, Kelly and Talla had perfect hair and makeup, even though they were dragged by a sea monster.  When they encountered the alien for real, everyone looked ok, and that made sense.  But why would Ed & Gordon be simulated hurt, and Kelly and Talla not be simulated wet and messy? 

I've been rewatching seasons 1 and 2 in between season 3 episodes.  I just watched Mad Idolatry last week, and I didn't see that race returning as the aliens who were doing all this.  But I do remember Alara running up/down the spiral staircase, so I can confirm that's been around since season 1.  And I just watched the episode when Talla comes on, and I really do like her so much more than Alara.  (I didn't dislike Alara, I just find Talla a much better character and actress.)

[Ottis]

3 hours ago, SmithW6079 said:

I believe it was always intended to be an homage to Star Trek because Seth Macfarlane is a fan of Trek.

And there is the problem. It's not a very good homage to Star Trek when it plays it straight. Really, it reminds me of some of the live action Sat morning shows from the 80s ... wasn't there one called Ark or some such? {Note: Holy smokes, it was the 70s and was called Ark II).

Orville tries way too hard to be thoughtful, and it comes off as simplistic. And Seth is not a very good actor..

In the first season, the humor added cleverness and made the straight stuff less important. It had a niche. Since then, we have had Discovery evolve, Picard and now Strange New Worlds. We don't need a poor imitation when we have actual Trek (which varies in quality, but all are more well done that Orville).

Has anyone seen ratings? Maybe I'll look in the media thread.

39 minutes ago, chaifan said:

I'll admit I was a little bored by the sea monster part - ok, we get it - they're trapped in some sort of simulation projecting their biggest fears coming true.

Exhibit A of my comment above ... *those* were their biggest fears? Getting beat up in high school? Poor piloting and a plane going down? Mundane stuff, fit for a sitcom. A sci-fi TV show should do much better.

3 hours ago, Commando Cody said:

I was glad to see a lighter episode. 

Exhibit B. This was meant as a lighter episode? Gordon getting beat up wasn't played for laughs. Kicking him while he was already pummeled to the ground? Playing for laughs would have been a swirly in the toilet. I saw pretty much no humor from the characters in those fake situations.

3 hours ago, SmithW6079 said:

Seth needs to stop giving major roles to his girlfriend du jure. She's a bad actress and the character is unpleasant. She's mouthed off to her captain several times, and in this episode, she talked back to the officer in temporary command. She should be busted down to janitor on a garbage scow, not be navigator on an exploration ship like Orville.

Exhibit C. This is a vanity project for McFarland, from casting himself as captain to repeatedly hiring his girlfriends. Alara is OK. Charley is awful. If this show is an homage, it is an homage to Seth. Another reason it is difficult to watch.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Ottis

[rtms77]

On 6/17/2022 at 12:25 AM, thuganomics85 said:

they really shouldn't have both the captain and first officer going on away missions together.  Structure wise, it would make sense for either one of the two to stay behind while the other one goes out, just in case crazy stuff does go down (which, naturally, always tends to happen on this show.)  Hell, all it can take is a freak shuttle accident and suddenly the majority of the leadership is done for.  Maybe a minor nitpick in the grand scheme of things, but that is something that always bugged me.

This has been bugging me since the beginning! Having both the Captain and First Officer always on the  away team is just maddening . I like the Picard idea, let the first officer take a team down. Its the same with the current Trek, they do the same thing. Ed is either vain and prideful or very untrusting of his officers.

[shapeshifter]

14 minutes ago, rtms77 said:

This has been bugging me since the beginning! Having both the Captain and First Officer always on the  away team is just maddening . I like the Picard idea, let the first officer take a team down. Its the same with the current Trek, they do the same thing. Ed is either vain and prideful or very untrusting of his officers.

IRL it would be absurd for the captain to leave the ship in those situations, but that’s the one thing that doesn’t bug me, because I accept that it’s Seth playing Kirk.

[rtms77]

23 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

IRL it would be absurd for the captain to leave the ship in those situations, but that’s the one thing that doesn’t bug me, because I accept that it’s Seth playing Kirk.

LOL, Well the whole premise of the show is a love song to Trek.

As for the ep itself, man I would have been way more pissed off at the alien for all that occured. Even Trek treats its Q with contempt and anger.

[Colorado David]

12 hours ago, Ottis said:

Exhibit C. This is a vanity project for McFarland, from casting himself as captain to repeatedly hiring his girlfriends. Alara is OK. Charley is awful. If this show is an homage, it is an homage to Seth. Another reason it is difficult to watch.

A little Seth goes a long way - for me he acts a little overboard, and it comes across as smirky. Smirky doesn't equal funny in my book unless you've got really good dialogue to back it up. (IE Kahn in Wrath of Kahn. OOT performance by Montalban, but man he does pull it off well.)

Edited June 19, 2022 by Colorado David
kahn

[SmithW6079]

I'm with Ed: I would want to live forever because I want to see what happens.

Human lifespans are so short when compared to cosmic time. I want to explore the sands of Mars, soar in the clouds of Jupiter, watch the suns rise on Alpha Centauri, see how humankind develops.

My own mortality is on my mind these days the older I get, and it makes me melancholy to think of all I'll never see and learn.

[DoctorAtomic]

16 minutes ago, SmithW6079 said:

I'm with Ed: I would want to live forever because I want to see what happens.

That line was great. I even shouted out loud at the end. Just a great point of view.

[shapeshifter]

18 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

That line was great. I even shouted out loud at the end. Just a great point of view.

36 minutes ago, SmithW6079 said:

I'm with Ed: I would want to live forever because I want to see what happens

It was a great line
——almost made me forget about my painfully failing body or my aunt whose mind no longer exists in her body. 
Have we seen Claire whip out a tricorder to heal broken bones or anything?