S01.E06: Lift Us Where Suffering Cannot Reach

[GreyBunny]

It was very much like Torchwood: Children of Earth, the film Snowpiercer, and Melisandre’s R’hllorism.

On 6/9/2022 at 10:42 AM, tanita said:

I mean, as gruesome it sounds, I think the Vulcan proverb applies here - The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. Save one child and doom a whole planet. Now if we knew that it's all just a lie, and that the Floating Paradise would not crush down onto the rivers of lava, that is another story.

If a society has to deliberately torture a child to function, that society doesn’t deserve to survive. I hope a giant meteor knocks their floating shithole into the lava pit.

[marinw]

In a way, Pike is simelar to the First Servant: he will ultimately end up imobilized in a machine after scarifeing himself for others. Pike should resign from Starfleet before the thing happens. And also get the best lawyer in Starfleet to file a living will, which Pike won't do because he assumes he dies.

In both the case of Omelas and this planet, have they even tried to see what happens if the don't make the child suffer? I'm reminded of the TNG Epsode Devil's Due where the people of a planet made a deal with Ardra for centuries of Peace. Picard points out that Ardra didn't do anything, it was their own work that saved them. 

Edited June 13, 2022 by marinw

[WildPlum]

A civilization so proud of their technology (and so disdainful of the "primitive" Federation) yet using an ancient tech, built by their ancestors, that they don't understand. It does seem to all come down to convenience - without the machinery that keeps their cloud cities floating, they'd have to live elsewhere, like maybe build their own space stations, which they clearly have the technology to do. Instead they'd rather keep their comfy life and serially torture a single child over whatever the period of time is.

And that "voluntary" thing is BS - obviously the child has been raised in isolation and given his expectations.

It was a fairly good, though heavy handed, stab at the old philosophy "Trolley" exercise - the kind of thing that always drove me nuts because the "givens" for the exercise seemed so unreasonable.

But, for the love of whatever, someone tell Pike that is TOO MUCH hair gel. He looks like an alarmed cockatoo.

[tennisgurl]

This week we get the classic short story "The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas" but now in space! I saw most of this coming, the planet having a dark secret, that the kid was being lined up for some sort of human sacrifice, that the people attacking the ship were trying to save the kid, but I totally thought that Pike would end up being able to save him. Having the Majalans go through with hooking up the cute kid to their computer was a rather dark ending, which is rough but I like that they didn't give us an easy win and left us with a lot to contemplate. Its a classic Trek morality fable, the plot mechanics being less important than the ideas it raised, and in that respect I think it did quite well. 

Alora might have made a few halfway decent points about how every society has to learn to live with the fact that not everyone in their society can be happy, but there is a difference I think in having to deal with the fact that you cant make sure that every child is treated the way that they should be treated, even in the Federation, and everyone willingly making the choice to let this child live a horrible existence after brainwashing him into thinking that he is doing this great thing. That's the whole point of the One's Who Walk Away and I think this episodes morality tale, trying to play this as a "needs of the many" is a false equivalency. These people are warp capable and there is a planet nearby that they could live on, they don't have to live in splendor at the cost of an innocent child, they choose to. The other planet isn't as nice but it is livable, the Ones Who Walk Away From Majalis are surviving there, its not about them being forced to do this, its what they want to do so they can live in their pretty city in the clouds. I also call bullshit on all their talk about how this is a "voluntary sacrifice", this poor kid has clearly been raised in isolation, has been told over and over that this is his entire reason for being, when he saw that body being taken away he looked terrified, I question how much he even knew about what he was actually going to do in that big creepy dungeon room, or at least how much he understood. 

For all of their smugness about how technologically and culturally advanced they are, it seems like this horrible tradition has also led them to stagnate as a society. They relay on technology they don't understand and can only use thanks to a creepy child murder computer who's reason for being they don't understand, they haven't seemed to put too much work into creating their own technology that could allow them to build some form of their civilization elsewhere so they don't have to depend on their computer, and their isolationism is such a massive part of their culture that even their dissidents don't seem to think of just telling Pike what is actually going on. If the people trying to rescue the kid had just answered hails, if his father had just told the crew the truth, if the guard who was working for the colonists had told Pike why he was doing this, this probably would have ended differently. 

Nice to see a Librarians reunion between Rebecca Romijn and Lindy Booth.

Edited June 13, 2022 by tennisgurl

[WildPlum]

The funny thing is that I'd never read the Omelas story, but a year or two back I watched a Great Courses/Wondrium series called Science Fiction as Philosophy - enjoyed the (long) series quite a bit, although I spent a fair amount of time arguing with the TV. The lecturer discussed the short story at length (and I think he even mentioned other sci fi TV versions of the story).

Edited June 13, 2022 by WildPlum

[starri]

Visually, Marjalis reminded me a lot of Ardana from "The Cloud Minders."

[rtms77]

On 6/9/2022 at 8:42 PM, Dani said:

As was mentioned they have warp drive so the Prime Directive wouldn’t apply. The Enterprise only got involved by answering a distress call. Plus making the adult trying to stop it the boy’s father was a good call from that standpoint. It wasn’t just Pike’s sensibilities objecting. When he tried to stop it he was siding with the kid’s father. 

I don’t think that really applies when we are talking about an advanced society with warp. They could leave. They just decided they would rather sacrifice a child instead. 

The Prime Directive in the future would include this even with warp power. The Feds/Starfleet are not allowed to interfere in another society’s culture, no matter how gruesome it may be to their sensibilities. But I think this rule change only happens in Kirks time. Only if they wanted to join the Federation would The Feds insist on general rules to join, and this world would have to change. But then as we’ve seen the Prime Directive is treated more like a gentleman agreement than rigid rules by various Captains in the future.

[marinw]

2 hours ago, starri said:

Visually, Marjalis reminded me a lot of Ardana from "The Cloud Minders."

I do love a good cloud city.

Edited June 13, 2022 by marinw

[LittleIggy]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I question how much he even knew about what he was actually going to do in that big creepy dungeon room, or at leats how much he understood. 

I wondered about that too. Was he told the truth about his fate, especially the suffering? What if he, at the last minute, had said he didn’t want to “ascend”? I bet they would have forced him. BTW, in the Omelas short story, one of the most wrenching parts for me is: The people at the door never say anything, but the child, who has not always lived in the tool room, and can remember sunlight and its mother's voice, sometimes speaks. "I will be good, " it says. "Please let me out. I will be good!" They never answer.   😢

3 hours ago, WildPlum said:

But, for the love of whatever, someone tell Pike that is TOO MUCH hair gel. He looks like an alarmed cockatoo.

For real! I think Pike’s pompadour gets higher each week! 😆

Edited June 13, 2022 by LittleIggy

[MissLucas]

The way I remember the scene the First Servant did hesitate when he saw the mummy of his predecessor and was then pushed into the machine by the guards. And he was clearly terrified when the clamps closed around him. Noble sacrifice my ass.

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Alora might have made a few halfway decent points about how every society has to learn to live with the fact that not everyone in their society can be happy, but there is a difference I think in having to deal with the fact that you cant make sure that every child is treated the way that they should be treated, even in the Federation, and everyone willingly making the choice to let this child live a horrible existence after brainwashing him into thinking that he is doing this great thing. That's the whole point of the One's Who Walk Away and I think this episodes morality tale, trying to play this as a "needs of the many" is a false equivalency. These people are warp capable and there is a planet nearby that they could live on, they don't have to live in splendor at the cost of an innocent child, they choose to. The other planet isn't as nice but it is livable, the Ones Who Walk Away From Majalis are surviving there, its not about them being forced to do this, its what they want to do so they can live in their pretty city in the clouds. I also call bullshit on all their talk about how this is a "voluntary sacrifice", this poor kid has clearly been raised in isolation, has been told over and over that this is his entire reason for being, when he saw that body being taken away he looked terrified, I question how much he even knew about what he was actually going to do in that big creepy dungeon room, or at leats how much he understood. 

For all of their smugness about how technologically and culturally advanced they are, it seems like this horrible tradition has also led them to stagnate as a society. They relay on technology they don't understand and can only use thanks to a creepy child murder computer who's reason for being they don't understand, they haven't seemed to put too much work into creating their own technology that could allow them to build some form of their civilization elsewhere so they don't have to depend on their computer, and their isolationism is such a massive part of their culture that even their dissidents don't seem to think of just telling Pike what is actually going on. If the people trying to rescue the kid had just answered hails, if his father had just told the crew the truth, if the guard who was working for the colonists had told Pike why he was doing this, this probably would have ended differently. 

Thanks for pointing this out so succinctly!

[LittleIggy]

24 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

The way I remember the scene the First Servant did hesitate when he saw the mummy of his predecessor and was then pushed into the machine by the guards.

As I recall it, the First Servant faltered in reciting the crap he was supposed to say when he saw the corpse being carried out then he recovered. I don’t remember him being forced into the machine.

[MissLucas]

1 hour ago, LittleIggy said:

As I recall it, the First Servant faltered in reciting the crap he was supposed to say when he saw the corpse being carried out then he recovered. I don’t remember him being forced into the machine.

My bad, he wasn't manhandled just emotionally manipulated - Pike got the manhandling (and some attempted emotional manipulation).

[Pallas]

9 hours ago, marinw said:

And also get the best lawyer in Starfleet to file a living will, which Pike won't do because he assumes he dies.

No, he knows he survives, encarcassed: what he considers a worse fate. 

[marinw]

If Pike knows he survives the training mission all the more reason to make his wishes clear. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

In case people are curious, The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas is 4 pages and can be found here. 

[paigow]

40 minutes ago, marinw said:

If Pike knows he survives the training mission all the more reason to make his wishes clear. 

Maybe putting Talos IV explicitly in a legal, registered document would get Spock / Number One [as executors / trustees] brig time.

[LittleIggy]

4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

In case people are curious, The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas is 4 pages and can be found here. 

Just be prepared to have your gut wrenched.

[Colorado David]

Have we seen future Pike in his robotic chair? I remember seeing him trapped behind a clear wall and appearing severely burned, but do we see him after that? Do we know he gets 'encased'?

[Llywela]

3 minutes ago, Colorado David said:

Have we seen future Pike in his robotic chair? I remember seeing him trapped behind a clear wall and appearing severely burned, but do we see him after that? Do we know he gets 'encased'?

Yes, Pike was shown his future self encased in Discovery, and we've seen that image a few times this season in SNW when he's flashed back to that vision.

[Colorado David]

huh i will have to go back and rewatch, i missed it. i bailed on Discovery so obviously missed that.

[dwmarch]

On 6/13/2022 at 9:34 AM, WildPlum said:

But, for the love of whatever, someone tell Pike that is TOO MUCH hair gel. He looks like an alarmed cockatoo.

I think I may have found the source of this issue...

[paigow]

26 minutes ago, dwmarch said:

I think I may have found the source of this issue...

Pike should sue for abuse by Starfleet Medical staff,,,

[LittleIggy]

Love that Anson Mount has a sense of humor! 

[PurpleTentacle]

On 6/10/2022 at 5:05 AM, paigow said:

The Prime Directive can be applied to advanced civilizations.

No it can't. I'm sure there are other Starfleet regulations that forbid interference in other cultures, as long as those cultures don't wish to be interfered with. That's just diplomacy 101, if you are not a warmonger. But the prime directive specifically applies to the natural development of a species until they reach warp capability.

On 6/10/2022 at 6:47 AM, Dani said:

I just realized why I didn’t buy a word of Alora’s speech about how much more honest their practice is. The first servant is chosen at birth by lottery, forswore his own family, and is raised in a retreat on a moon. If it’s so noble why deny him any kind of life before the sacrifice? Why choose at birth? The only explanation I can think of is so he won’t change is mind, can be indoctrinated and so other people aren’t uncomfortable. That doesn’t seem very honest to me. 

I mean yeah. It's still a lot more honest than what we are doing today.

[PurpleTentacle]

On 6/10/2022 at 6:47 AM, Dani said:

That wasn’t their ship. The colony may have been an offshoot of their planet but it would make sense for them to be less technologically advanced. Based on the weapons the guards had they seemed to have advanced weapon technology. 

But that ship took out the ship the first servent was on. So it stands to reason, it's more powerfull than the ships these people use to transport the one person who is needed to keep their planet alive. And still it couldn't make a dent in the enterprise.

On 6/10/2022 at 4:22 AM, Starchild said:

I think it was literal, but c'mon they're warp-capable, just freakin' leave the lava planet FFS

Well if it was literal then it was dumb af.

Edited June 15, 2022 by PurpleTentacle

[Affogato]

On 6/13/2022 at 3:48 AM, GreyBunny said:

If a society has to deliberately torture a child to function, that society doesn’t deserve to survive. I hope a giant meteor knocks their floating shithole into the lava pit.

One of the problems with enslavement. It being a child is a distraction. Deliberately torturing an adult really isn’t better. Yes, we have  an ‘instinct’(?) to protect children but we should have a social contract for adults as well. 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Affogato

[sugarbaker design]

On 6/13/2022 at 3:48 AM, GreyBunny said:

If a society has to deliberately torture a child to function, that society doesn’t deserve to survive. I hope a giant meteor knocks their floating shithole into the lava pit.

Child slavery exists today, right here on planet Earth.  Bring on the meteor!  

[ketchuplover]

It looked to me like that guard swung a sharp spear at Pike but didn't draw blood. hmmmmmmm

[Guest]

13 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

But that ship took out the ship the first servent was on. So it stands to reason, it's more powerfull than the ships these people use to transport the one person who is needed to keep their planet alive. And still it couldn't make a dent in the enterprise.

Two things, first, the first servant was on a shuttle and you can’t judge tech in Star Trek by shuttles. Second, the attackers had multiple people at the highest levels including one on the shuttle. Both make it impossible to judge the planets actual weapons technology. The weapons that the guards had and the fact that Alora said they had been sacrificing children for centuries makes it very unlikely they aren’t at least on par with the federation. 

[jcin617]

If the Elder was trying to save his child, why didn’t he just request asylum from the Federation?  Maybe because the First Servent believed in his duty it wouldn’t have worked.

Also, all I could think about with the floating cities was it looked like Columbia from the game Bioshock: Infinite.

Edited June 16, 2022 by jcin617

[millennium]

This one tried to make a statement and an emotional impact but clearly missed the mark, IMHO.   I don't know if it was lack of character development, poor pacing, or actors that weren't terribly engaging but it was all very meh.  I perceived no emotional connection between Alora and Pike so his dismay at learning his girlfriend from the past was part of the travesty barely registered.   Meanwhile, the kid wasn't onscreen enough or didn't have enough chance to connect with other characters, to a degree that his sudden loss wasn't much of a jolt.   The fact that he would meet a bad end was telegraphed early on when they said he was chosen by "lottery."  Shout out to Shirley Jackson.

Alora's argument that the kid's sacrifice was given willingly was absurd.   No matter how intelligent, he was brainwashed from birth and not permitted to reach maturity.   He couldn't have made an informed decision to sacrifice himself.

On 6/14/2022 at 3:43 PM, LittleIggy said:

Love that Anson Mount has a sense of humor! 

Even better, that he can laugh at himself.

[LittleIggy]

I thought the child actor was adorable and his character’s fate impactful.

[millennium]

He earns sympathy by dint of being a child, yes.   But he formed no real connection to the main cast.  In TNG, for example, he might have established a bond with Data.   Here, he might have affected Spock.   And we, as an audience, would have formed a bond with the child ourselves through those characters.  But in this story he seemed to spend just a little time with everyone, never making one special impression.   At least to me.

[MissLucas]

The scene where he had set up play time for girl in the buffer and then explained to the Doc that he had used nothing toxic or dangerous for her entertainment really got to me. 

[Llywela]

On 6/17/2022 at 12:30 AM, millennium said:

Alora's argument that the kid's sacrifice was given willingly was absurd.   No matter how intelligent, he was brainwashed from birth and not permitted to reach maturity.   He couldn't have made an informed decision to sacrifice himself.

I'm pretty sure that was the point. Alora could make that statement, but we as viewers were trusted to understand that it was hollow, that of course it wasn't true, precisely because it was a child brainwashed from birth, a child whose fear we were clearly shown when it came to the fateful moment of accepting his final fate.

[aemom]

I still kind of feel that there is a lot of hand waving with the transporters that you couldn't already re-materialize someone without an injury, disease, or just make them younger, so this whole thing with M'Benga's daughter kind of bugs.

We can already use them to reflavor gum for crying out loud! ;)

[Guest]

17 hours ago, aemom said:

I still kind of feel that there is a lot of hand waving with the transporters that you couldn't already re-materialize someone without an injury, disease, or just make them younger, so this whole thing with M'Benga's daughter kind of bugs.

Based on how transporters have always been described you would need a pattern from before the injury or disease for that to work. I think that would be one of those tricky ethical issues the show usually says is prohibited like with the eugenics ban. Where can it be done and should it be done are two entirely different questions. 

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Dani said:

Based on how transporters have always been described you would need a pattern from before the injury or disease for that to work. I think that would be one of those tricky ethical issues the show usually says is prohibited like with the eugenics ban. Where can it be done and should it be done are two entirely different questions. 

TNG!Pulaski got infected with a rapid aging virus. A live hair follicle ( pre infection) was enough DNA for the transporter bio filter to eliminate the virus.

[Lady Jane]

On 6/12/2022 at 6:42 AM, Joimiaroxeu said:

ICAM. Whenever I've seen this complaint about SNW's Uhura, the subtext seems to be about her hair. Before now I think Uhura wore wigs or weaves or had naturally long(er) hair. But it's hard for me to imagine how the varieties of Black women's hairstyles is still a puzzlement in 2022.

The actress has said that it was really important for her to be able to play Uhura with her natural hair. I think it is a great choice.

[Guest]

On 6/20/2022 at 1:52 AM, paigow said:

TNG!Pulaski got infected with a rapid aging virus. A live hair follicle ( pre infection) was enough DNA for the transporter bio filter to eliminate the virus.

I know but that makes very little sense with what has established outside of that episode. Whenever they need a transporter miracle they throw out their own logic. Generally they can’t be used like that and if they could I doubt it would be allowed because it would be dicey ethically. 

[Catfi9ht]

I know this episode has been out for a while. I'm just now catching up and am late to the party.

I know tv shows never show jobs realistically, but I wanted to mention it anyway. Security people like La'an burn out really quickly. They either can't sustain the energy for hypervigilance or one mistake happens, they're unable to reconcile with it, and engage in self-destructive behavior. Establishing a good, healthy rapport with your colleagues is key to the foundation of good security. When security people try to rule with fear like La'an does, it leads to your coworkers being afraid to report things to you which then leads to security incidents. The fact that she's a woman also riles up the feminist in me. I really hate it when TV can't show women in powerful positions without them eschewing female characteristics. I realize #notallwomen on this show, but the fact that there's even one tropey example bugs me. 😄 

This one was easy to guess for me. As soon as Alora stepped off the transporter and started flirting with Pike, I knew she'd be evil and not to be trusted. Then when I saw the kid, I knew it was a child sacrifice story, and Alora would be the one to ensure it happened.

My one gripe would be the episode name was really on the nose and gives away the plot if you think about it for a short time. The episode names in this show continue to annoy me. 

Child sacrifice to maintain a utopia is a pretty common trope, and it makes sense that it would be in this Star Trek iteration. I liked that it was subtle. You only saw the cloud city hovering over the lava planet once, and Alora mentioned something about the cloud city falling into the planet when she thought the kid was dead.

The kid was pretty likable fairly quickly. He was smart but he wasn't a dick. Even though he was doing really technologically advanced things, he still had a cute, childlike way of talking about how "I just wanted to", "I didn't do anything mean", etc.

I like that this show is casting people with varying shades of color to play the same planetary inhabitants. I'm glad space shows seem to be migrating away from one planet = one race = one skin tone for casting and storytelling choices.

I continue to really enjoy the costuming in this show. It's really excellent and sometimes quite beautiful.

[marinw]

4 hours ago, Catfi9ht said:

I continue to really enjoy the costuming in this show. It's really excellent and sometimes quite beautiful.

Agreed. A good interpretation on the TOS uniforms. They look both future-y and practical.

Edited July 1, 2022 by marinw

[QuantumMechanic]

6 hours ago, Catfi9ht said:

Child sacrifice to maintain a utopia is a pretty common trope, and it makes sense that it would be in this Star Trek iteration. I liked that it was subtle. You only saw the cloud city hovering over the lava planet once, and Alora mentioned something about the cloud city falling into the planet when she thought the kid was dead.

Heck, any TOS fan should have immediately suspected the floating cloud city depended on some oppression!  Mine that zenite! :)

[Ceindreadh]

On 6/13/2022 at 6:58 AM, wrlord said:

It has nothing to do with her hair. I have no issue with her hair. She simply isn't the radiant beauty that Nichols is.  Neither was the girl in the recent movies.  It doesn't help that they've made the character so goofy and lacking in confidence, despite being The Most Competent Person In The Room At All Times, And Don't You Forget It.  It's just a totally different character, sharing nothing in common with the original but her name, her race and her (in the case of TOS mostly presumed by the fans) skill set.  I get that it's a different take on the character; so is Chapel (to an even greater degree).  But yes, looks are part of it, and this is not the drop-dead gorgeous character that TOS featured.

Why would it have to do with her hair? I said nothing about her hair. Her hair is not a problem.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and not everybody has the same definition of 'drop dead gorgeous'.  Your preference is for TOS Uhuru over SNW Uhura?  Good for you.  Not everybody will share your opinion.

As for 'lacking in confidence'?  SNW Uhura is a Cadet who is surrounded by Officers and Starfleet graduates.  She's on her first assignment, hell yeah, she's likely to be less confident than Lieutenant Uhura who has another 10+ years experience on her. 

[LydiaMoon1]

20 hours ago, Ceindreadh said:

As for 'lacking in confidence'?  SNW Uhura is a Cadet who is surrounded by Officers and Starfleet graduates.  She's on her first assignment, hell yeah, she's likely to be less confident than Lieutenant Uhura who has another 10+ years experience on her. 

Can you imagine the wailing and whining and rending of garments that would have resulted if they'd have brought SNW Uhura on and had her be as "confident" as the older, more experienced TOS Uhura?  Whew! These same folks would be tossing around "Mary Sue" accusations with every other breath.

[ML89]

So...they have the floating cities and they figured out that having a kid plugged in runs the whole thing...how? Did I miss how they made that logic jump? Or why all of them don't go find, in the immortal words of Buffy (or was it Cordelia?), an elsewhere to be?

Of course, if the kid was that smart, it begs the question of why he didn't figure out a way to not have to do this. All of them figure out a way not to do this.

It seems like this was one of those "appointed times" instead of "other kid wore out, time to replace" so how did they know? Or was it "other kid is wearing out, start lining up the next Slayer First Servant"?

[ouinason]

the fuel gage probably pinged right before this kid was born

[wanderingstar]

Liked seeing Ian Ho, who played Xan on the last season of The Expanse, as First Servant. Was surprised they didn't save First Servant. 

Uhura and La'an together is a treat. 

[Prevailing Wind]

I read somewhere, probably on imdb, that this was actually a slightly re-worked Roddenberry script, written years before LeGuin's
"Omelas" but the suits deemed it unsuitable for network TV & it got stuck in a drawer. So it's NOT a rip-off of LeGuin and it DOES feel like TOS because, y'know, Roddenberry.

[Raja]

On 6/12/2022 at 10:58 PM, wrlord said:

It has nothing to do with her hair. I have no issue with her hair. She simply isn't the radiant beauty that Nichols is.  Neither was the girl in the recent movies.  It doesn't help that they've made the character so goofy and lacking in confidence, despite being The Most Competent Person In The Room At All Times, And Don't You Forget It.  It's just a totally different character, sharing nothing in common with the original but her name, her race and her (in the case of TOS mostly presumed by the fans) skill set.  I get that it's a different take on the character; so is Chapel (to an even greater degree).  But yes, looks are part of it, and this is not the drop-dead gorgeous character that TOS featured.

Keep in mind that cadets and midshipman, as naval service cadets on earth are called are mostly teenagers and can't even buy a drink in the countries they serve. They are different from long service professional who have risen to the head of a starship's department. Even if in a catastrophe the cadet over the senior Non Commissioned Officers  will take command should all of the commissioned officers be unable to fulfill their duties, Chief O'Brien deferred to Cadet Nog on Deep Space Nine.. And while Starfleet also has military duties they rarely been  portrayed as "sir, yes sir" types, even with Nog being a wartime Cadet

Edited June 28, 2023 by Raja