S06.E11: Saturday in the Park

[MissLucas]

The whole babysitter set-up was straight out of Calvin & Hobbes, but not half as funny. And Calvin got into major trouble when he locked Rosalyn out because that was a dangerous stunt.

I was initially okay with Kate not wanting to move to SF. But long-distance relationships are hard and require a lot of commitment and compromises. I think they both underestimated the effort. IMO Kate was less willing to put in the work than Toby was. And if long-distance is not working out something or someone has to give - in this case it's their marriage.

[Ohiopirate02]

24 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

 

Kate goes from happiness for her husband to hearing that he'll be away for 3 days/week in a completely different city that is a plane ride away and he's immediately saying how he wants and needs to take the job (and he's not wrong to be excited and happy after months of nothing), but the way he goes about it, just slipping in that pesky detail about it being in SF for almost half of every week and Kate specifically saying "give me a minute to process" and he can't understand what her problem is. But this is what Toby does. Lays it out there and it's kind of take it or leave it and Kate did take the circumstances as she agreed that he should take the job. Things might have gone better had Toby prepared her for the possibility that it could mean him being in SF from the moment he interviewed, instead of springing it on her. It's another one of those things we'll never know because it did not play out that way on screen.

What really bothered me in this scene is Toby want Kate to be 100% happy for him.  She's not allowed to have mixed emotions.   Kate wants Toby to be happy and working, but finding out he's going to have to be away from her and their two small children for part of the week is going to be tough on her.  Can she not acknowledge this?  Can she not have a moment to process it?

[CountryGirl]

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

What really bothered me in this scene is Toby want Kate to be 100% happy for him.  She's not allowed to have mixed emotions.   Kate wants Toby to be happy and working, but finding out he's going to have to be away from her and their two small children for part of the week is going to be tough on her.  Can she not acknowledge this?  Can she not have a moment to process it?

Of course, she should be allowed to have mixed emotions. She should also be allowed to acknowledge those feelings and all the ramifications taking the job entails and more than a second to process it. But she is not only allowed to not feel obvious feelings when blindsided, she wasn't allowed to be upset about not being told about the LA offer, and she gets zero credit for compromising with him to take the job and she would take care of the heavy lifting with respect to the kids and the home while he is in SF (and still "on the job" during those times when he is in LA). Kate has worked my last nerve at times, but even I can see that there is a clear imbalance where the expectations of her vs Toby are concerned and him making the bigger income isn't a good enough reason for me to say, "Shut up and move Kate." 

I also hope her marriage to Philip works out. Philip and Toby are very, very different men and Kate has grown in her own confidence and self-worth this past few years, the past year especially, and I see them having a better foundation. 

I hope Toby is able to find love and happiness as well with someone who is a better match for him.

 

[Ohmo]

2 hours ago, izabella said:

Kate is a miserable person and has been her entire life. 

Kate's issue is that she rarely puts herself out there for any reason, and then she gets mad when nothing happens for her.

The whole thing at the pool was ridiculous.  "I see nothing." Randall and Kevin's father also died.  Kevin put work into his acting career.  Randall excelled at academics.  Kate could have done something of her choice but she chose dead-end jobs and crappy men.

Now, the show is doing more telling than showing.  We've seen Beth, Randall, Toby, and Kevin all put in work to get where they are.  We've heard that Kate finished college.  Never saw her go.  We've seen her guide a music class (with Philip in the room).  If she has a teaching credential, she needs to be teaching solo to have any shot at Sheila's job.  I was a classroom teacher.  Your principal or your department head doesn't watch you teach every day.

Kate has some Mary Sue qualities.  Everything does not go well for her, but the audience is routinely told how spectacular she is, making it difficult to root for her.

[Rootbeer]

2 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

s Toby's. Likely not, but we do not know that for certain, but the pay doesn't have to be as much or more. It can be a combination of salaries as it often is in most two-working-outside-of-the-home families and that can ensure financial needs are met. 

It's pretty clear that Toby makes well into 6 figures annually.  Meanwhile, Kate works as a teaching assistant at a private school.  She has said as much.  She doesn't have certification to be an actual teacher, she has a non-education degree from a community college.  You can google teaching assistant salary in California.  I did, and, according to Indeed, the number is $16.07 per hour, which is above the national average BTW.  I know this show likes to play with distance and money, but I doubt Kate is going from 16 bucks an hour as a teaching assistant to a full-time position earning 6 figures all in a matter of months without qualifications.

https://www.indeed.com/career/teaching-assistant/salaries/CA

As far as supplementing their income, presuming Kate works full time as a TA for 52 weeks a year (doubtful); she would probably make around $34,000 a year if you round it up.  Meanwhile, according to what I can find, full-time childcare in California would be around $20,000 for two kids which doesn't account for the fact that one of their children has special needs and will undoubtedly need a unique and more expensive, arrangement.  Jack's care alone will be more than her hourly pay according to sites giving information on special needs child care. That leaves, in the best case, presuming Jack can be in a regular daycare setting, around $14,000 for the family which is going to be eaten up pretty quickly by additional costs for fuel, auto maintenance, lunches, clothing, etc that Kate will need to work full time.  She is not going to be contributing to the family financially in her current situation.  It may be that the job will make her happier and more fulfilled and that is wonderful, but it will not pay the bills.

https://www.topdaycarecenters.com/blog/what-is-the-average-cost-of-childcare-in-california/

Quote

I also hope her marriage to Philip works out. Philip and Toby are very, very different men and Kate has grown in her own confidence and self-worth this past few years, the past year especially, and I see them having a better foundation. 

I am trying to figure out what Phillip, who breaks up with women because they bore him, is going to find so fascinating about Kate.  She's not particularly witty or fun nor does she have a lot of facets to her personality.  Dorothy Parker she is not.

Edited April 9, 2022 by Rootbeer

[Rootbeer]

4 hours ago, Crs97 said:

She was basically telling Kate to shut up, which is rude, but it was also their bedtime.  It was such a terribly contrived setup.  Apparently the boys only know how to step in and “protect” Kate when it is wholly unwarranted.

Calling a kid who is talking over you 'Chatty Cathy' is not the same as telling her to 'shut up'.  Parents tell their kids to pipe down and be quiet all the time, it is not rude.  It was bedtime and the sitter was right to try to enforce the rules she was given by their parents.  

[peeayebee]

14 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

I am trying to figure out what Phillip, who breaks up with women because they bore him, is going to find so fascinating about Kate.  She's not particularly witty or fun nor does she have a lot of facets to her personality.  Dorothy Parker she is not.

I was thinking about this, too. It's sad and disappointing when TV shows create characters we're supposed to think are magnetic or charming, but, to many in the audience, are not. A lot of that has to do with casting. I don't think Chrissy projects much charisma. I have to say, though, in that clip posted above where Toby tells her about the SF job, I enjoyed seeing Kate and Toby have playful banter. Man, I've missed that.

[chocolatine]

24 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

I am trying to figure out what Phillip, who breaks up with women because they bore him, is going to find so fascinating about Kate.  She's not particularly witty or fun nor does she have a lot of facets to her personality.  Dorothy Parker she is not.

I also don't see how his personality will mesh with Kate's. Based on every scene we've seen of him so far, he is very direct and snarky, like when he told Kate that he didn't want to hire her because other applicants were more qualified. Kate immediately deemed him a "mean jerk" for that. We know that Kate gets really upset when she hears a truth that she doesn't like, such as "I love our kids, but I need to work," so how is she going to deal when Philip makes a comment like that? Call Kevin and have him come over to lecture Philip until Philip has learned to never voice a negative thought to Kate?

Unless Kate has a period of huge self-growth in the time between the divorce and remarriage (which the show will apparently wrap up within one episode, so even if it does happen, it won't feel earned), she can't handle being with someone like Philip.

Edited April 9, 2022 by chocolatine

[ams1001]

2 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

I also don't see how his personality will mesh with Kate's. Based on every scene we've seen of him so far, he is very direct and snarky, like when he told Kate that he didn't want to hire her because other applicants were more qualified. Kate immediately deemed him a "mean jerk" for that. We know that Kate gets really upset when she hears a truth that she doesn't like, such as "I love our kids, but I need to work," so how is she going to deal when Philip makes a comment like that? Call Kevin and have him come over to lecture Philip until Philip has learned to never voice a negative thought to Kate?

Unless Kate has a huge period of self-growth in the period between the divorce and remarriage (which the show will apparently wrap up within one episode, so even if it does happen, it won't feel earned), she's not able to handle being with someone like Philip.

She also knows that he's not above dumping his girlfriend, in his office with the door open, by flat-out telling her she bores him. Because that screams "guy I want to marry" (or even work for; how unprofessional).

I still don't know what is so interesting about Kate.

[CountryGirl]

26 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I was thinking about this, too. It's sad and disappointing when TV shows create characters we're supposed to think are magnetic or charming, but, to many in the audience, are not. A lot of that has to do with casting. I don't think Chrissy projects much charisma. I have to say, though, in that clip posted above where Toby tells her about the SF job, I enjoyed seeing Kate and Toby have playful banter. Man, I've missed that.

I loved seeing that clip again and Kate/Chrissy was so cute with her “high stakes” comment. I also loved seeing them at the park with little Jack. 

As for what Philip sees in her, well, he gets to see her more in her element. She’s encouraging, caring, funny and absolutely invested in her students. Philip, for all his prickly exterior, is a committed teacher. I can see some potential there. And remembering that one scene where Chrissy was in front of the class and Philip was observing her with a decidedly non-prickly look on his face, I think he sees potential, too. Clearly, he refused to let her resign to move to SF that’s how much potential he saw in her. As for Kate, I have seen growth from her. Others have written her off as an aimless, complaining, unlovable leech, which is fine, of course. I actually have appreciated seeing Kate evolve from the 17-year-old content to drift along in life to where she is now. I also have to remember that someone who experiences trauma like Kate did with Jack’s death when she was still in her teens can have a small part of them that is frozen and stuck in that point of her life. Trauma affects everyone differently. Some rebound or seem to like Randall and his success. Except his desire to be “perfect” and like his father (who was no saint but that’s the lionization of the dead effect) caused him to have a breakdown. Kevin’s addiction and inability to be in a committed relationship stemmed, in part, from Jack’s death. 

People can grow and become the best versions of themselves. It might come in their 20s, 30s, 40s (like Kate) or perhaps most of their lifetime. I, for one, am curious to see where Kate’s journey takes her next. 
 

 

[ams1001]

2 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

As for what Philip sees in her, well, he gets to see her more in her element. She’s encouraging, caring, funny and absolutely invested in her students.

I guess my problem is that audience has hardly gotten to see that...

[CountryGirl]

2 minutes ago, ams1001 said:

I guess my problem is that audience has hardly gotten to see that...

I can understand that but I don’t know that we need a ton of episodes. I knew there would be a future relationship with Kate and Toby from their very first episode. 

[peeayebee]

My memory is bad. Someone remind me:  Is it certain that it's PMJ who Kate is going to marry? (Using that abbreviation always makes me think of PB&J.)

[Ohiopirate02]

5 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

My memory is bad. Someone remind me:  Is it certain that it's PMJ who Kate is going to marry? (Using that abbreviation always makes me think of PB&J.)

Within the show, it's heavily implied with Philip calling Kevin his future brother-in-law, but nothing is 100% confirmed yet. 

Now you can search for interviews by the showrunners and stills from next week's episode for confirmation. 

[ams1001]

11 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Within the show, it's heavily implied with Philip calling Kevin his future brother-in-law, but nothing is 100% confirmed yet. 

Now you can search for interviews by the showrunners and stills from next week's episode for confirmation. 

Someone posted an article in a prior episode thread (don't remember which but it was within the last few weeks) that pretty much confirms it.

[kili]

Quote

Respectfully, that is not at all the same as saying one values work over family. That is saying that one is not cut out to stay home with the kids, however much one loves them.  Not everyone finds fulfilment staying home with young children - I sure didn’t and it doesn’t mean my family was less important than my work.  

I'm not saying that people who work outside of the home value work over family. It's the context that matters. They had just finished agreeing that they were getting by (just not saving) with Kate's current job (past investments helped?), but he felt compelled to take the job in San Francisco, away from his family, because he needed the validation of work. 

He has proceeded to put the company first by working on weekends and evenings. On the weekend that he is trying to convince his wife to move to SF, he doesn't pick her up from the airport (she is arriving at what should have been after work), he pencils in twenty minutes for sex before taking another work call, he takes work calls while touring her around the city and takes her to a work party. That's four work intrusions into family time in less than 24 hours when he is trying to convince her to throw away everything she has worked for and built in LA and move to another city where she knows nobody. 

It is unlikely he would work less when the family gets up there.

While some jobs do take a lot of effort, unless you are barely making ends meet, you are absolutely choosing work/money over family if your work/life balance is as skewed as Toby's. If it is a short-term thing - fine. If it goes on for months and is part of the position, then Toby is making a choice.  Surely there is a less demanding job that Toby could do that will allow them to make ends meet and Toby could see his kids once and a while. There is. It's in LA.

Toby works long hours, spends hours at the gym, goes for daily 5 km jogs, and has numerous work parties to attend. That doesn't leave a lot of time for Kate or the kids. And until Kate rebuilds a support system in SF, she won't have any downtime (while he gets his gym, jogs, work parties and validation from work - in the past, he lied about working to get the gym/jog free time, so we have no evidence he will cut down on those).

I'm not saying Toby is a bad guy - I'm just saying he's so blinded by getting everything he ever wanted, that he's not noticing he's demanding his wife gives of everything just as she too was finally finding herself.  Both could compromise more, but I think that Toby could find a fulfilling job in LA if he just gives it a bit of time. It's not like she's demanding they live in a one-horse company town.

[Shermie]

12 hours ago, chocolatine said:

For the six years that Toby had known her until a few weeks prior, she had never expressed the desire or made the effort to work full-time, even before they got married or had kids.

Kate was 37 when the show began, and it just occurred to me - did she ever have a job before this teaching job? I mean, at 37 that’s 20 years after high school is done and she hasn’t accomplished anything, career-wise? No aspirations, no attempts at post-secondary, no travelling the world to see what’s what? What exactly did Kate do for those 20 years?

[chocolatine]

16 minutes ago, Shermie said:

Kate was 37 when the show began, and it just occurred to me - did she ever have a job before this teaching job? I mean, at 37 that’s 20 years after high school is done and she hasn’t accomplished anything, career-wise? No aspirations, no attempts at post-secondary, no travelling the world to see what’s what? What exactly did Kate do for those 20 years?

The show began with the Big Three's 36th birthday, and Kate was working as Kevin's assistant at the time. Prior to that, she was living in Pittsburgh and working as a waitress in a diner - she started when she was 18 and was still doing that at 28. Some time between ages 28 and 36 she moved to LA and started working for Kevin. Once Kevin blew up his own career he didn't need an assistant anymore, though he most likely kept subsidizing Kate (since she had no other sources of income that we know of). After the Kevin job she worked as an assistant to a rich lady for literally one day, and that was it. No other job between that and the part-time classroom assistant one. 

[Ohiopirate02]

5 minutes ago, Shermie said:

Kate was 37 when the show began, and it just occurred to me - did she ever have a job before this teaching job? I mean, at 37 that’s 20 years after high school is done and she hasn’t accomplished anything, career-wise? No aspirations, no attempts at post-secondary, no travelling the world to see what’s what? What exactly did Kate do for those 20 years?

She was 36 in season 1 episode 1, and she was Kevin's personal assistant.  Before moving to LA sometime after 2008, she was a waitress in Pittsburgh.  We saw in this season's flashbacks that she started working as a waitress around 1999.  Apparently she did take some college courses sometime between 1999 and 2016, but she never earned enough credits for a degree.   She does go back to school when she is pregnant with Jack and gets some kind of degree.   The show had her complete her education at a community college, but wrote it in a way which I suspect she got a bachelor's degree.   It was a writing fail where the writers mixed up community colleges and their degrees and purposes with universities with departments that help older students go back to school to complete degrees they started decades ago.  The latter is something some universities do, and it has some kind of official title.  My next door neighbor does this for the local university.   They help clean up transcripts and students may only have to take one or two semesters of classes to finally earn their degrees.  

[MissLucas]

She also worked as a singing telegram (or however you call that) - but I can't remember if that was a regular job.

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, kili said:

They had just finished agreeing that they were getting by (just not saving) with Kate's current job (past investments helped?), but he felt compelled to take the job in San Francisco, away from his family, because he needed the validation of work. 

If I'm understanding it correctly, they were getting by as long as Toby was getting unemployment benefits (or whatever they are called) but they were going to run out soon. Toby had applied for jobs in LA but the SF job was the first real offer that he got. He took it because they needed the money.

I think that's an important point because it speaks to whether they have the flexibility to go it Kate's way.

Both Kate and Toby want to get validation from their work. Could they afford to live on Kate's salary alone? At $16/hr, no, not even if she works fulltime, not at the standard they're used to. That's pretty much unarguable.

We can debate whether Toby should give up the job he's happy in and take a lesser job in LA so Kate can stay at the school, or Kate should take the challenge, move to SF, start her career there and get credentials for the teaching she loves.

But when relationships end, it's often because one party has decided that they are not going to try any more, they're done. It feels to me like Kate's made that decision. She's done with this marriage.

[PRgal]

1 hour ago, kili said:

I'm not saying that people who work outside of the home value work over family. It's the context that matters. They had just finished agreeing that they were getting by (just not saving) with Kate's current job (past investments helped?), but he felt compelled to take the job in San Francisco, away from his family, because he needed the validation of work. 

He has proceeded to put the company first by working on weekends and evenings. On the weekend that he is trying to convince his wife to move to SF, he doesn't pick her up from the airport (she is arriving at what should have been after work), he pencils in twenty minutes for sex before taking another work call, he takes work calls while touring her around the city and takes her to a work party. That's four work intrusions into family time in less than 24 hours when he is trying to convince her to throw away everything she has worked for and built in LA and move to another city where she knows nobody. 

It is unlikely he would work less when the family gets up there.

While some jobs do take a lot of effort, unless you are barely making ends meet, you are absolutely choosing work/money over family if your work/life balance is as skewed as Toby's. If it is a short-term thing - fine. If it goes on for months and is part of the position, then Toby is making a choice.  Surely there is a less demanding job that Toby could do that will allow them to make ends meet and Toby could see his kids once and a while. There is. It's in LA.

Toby works long hours, spends hours at the gym, goes for daily 5 km jogs, and has numerous work parties to attend. That doesn't leave a lot of time for Kate or the kids. And until Kate rebuilds a support system in SF, she won't have any downtime (while he gets his gym, jogs, work parties and validation from work - in the past, he lied about working to get the gym/jog free time, so we have no evidence he will cut down on those).

I'm not saying Toby is a bad guy - I'm just saying he's so blinded by getting everything he ever wanted, that he's not noticing he's demanding his wife gives of everything just as she too was finally finding herself.  Both could compromise more, but I think that Toby could find a fulfilling job in LA if he just gives it a bit of time. It's not like she's demanding they live in a one-horse company town.

If Kate gets a job in SF, and there are plenty of jobs at schools with special needs (though she probably doesn't have the qualifications), then she could have a life in SF outside of caring for Jack and Hailey.  But it seems she doesn't want to.  Both Kate and Toby are self-centred.  

[Crs97]

There is only so much hand waving I can do for a show, and pretending a part time teacher’s aide in a private school is making enough to pay for the family’s mortgage, food, clothing, insurance, and other necessities is a bridge too far.

[kili]

Quote

If Kate gets a job in SF, and there are plenty of jobs at schools with special needs (though she probably doesn't have the qualifications), then she could have a life in SF outside of caring for Jack and Hailey. 

If it is a miracle that she got the teaching job with no credentials in LA why will there be plenty of jobs at special needs schools in San Francisco? Sometimes one gets lucky and somebody gets to know you and takes a chance on you like what happened with her current job. She might not be able to count on that luck twice. Maybe if she gets Sheila's job and gets a few years of experience she can transfer those credentials to SF schools.

If we are being real, she's not going to get the same kind of job she loves in SF. Toby isn't going to cut back to normal work hours and stop being the Work Hero so that he can be more at home and she can go to school to get the credentials.  

So, moving to SF means Kate giving up her career dreams until the kids are out of the house while Toby is more married to his job than her.

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, kili said:

So moving to SF means Kate giving up her career dreams until the kids are out of the house while Toby is more married to his job than her.

Or, since Toby's SF job pays enough that they can afford childcare, she could go back to school for a year or two so that she can get the accreditation to do the job she loves so she's not dependent on charity for the job. (As Philip said, she doesn't have the cred other applicants had.)

Learning how to be a teacher and student teaching can be rewarding and gives her more options in the future (like private tutoring so she's not dependent on other people giving her a job) even before the kids are out of the house. In a couple of years she'll have a better career than if she stayed at this school.

ETA it seems that one of Kate's problems is that she has limited herself during her life. I understand if she wants to stay at this school because it is safe and enjoyable but if the argument is that she has at last found a career that she loves and she should keep it, she needs to expand her wings, not stay safe in this bubble.

Edited April 10, 2022 by statsgirl

[kili]

Quote

Or, since Toby's SF job pays enough that they can afford childcare, she could go back to school for a year or two so that she can get the accreditation to do the job she loves so she's not dependent on charity for the job. (As Philip said, she doesn't have the cred other applicants had.)

And Toby will cut down working extra hours so that she can do her homework? 

When the SF job first came up, I was all in favour of Kate moving. Now that Toby has made it clear that his job comes first before anybody, I'm not in favour of Kate uprooting her life.  The scraps of time he's willing to dole out to his family means he's moved on. If he can't put down the phone for one Saturday when he's trying to convince her to move, how much worse will he be when Kate is stuck in SF? 

[chocolatine]

19 minutes ago, kili said:

And Toby will cut down working extra hours so that she can do her homework? 

She can do her homework when the kids are in bed, like millions of other people who earn degrees while raising young children. People have earned degrees and achieved other big goals under much less fortunate circumstances. If Kate wants more from her life than what she currently has, she has to work hard and make sacrifices, just like everyone else. 

But that's really a moot point since Kate has never even mentioned getting a four-year degree. IIRC, she only finished the two-year degree because of Toby's encouragement. In her entire life, even before Jack died, Kate has done almost nothing of her own initiative. There was Jack, then Rebecca, then Kevin, then Toby to prop her up. The only way her character can be redeemed is if she doesn't get remarried after the divorce and learns to stand on her own two feet, without handouts from Kevin or alimony from Toby (Toby should only be responsible for supporting their children, not her). Otherwise she'll always be someone who takes more than she gives.

[Marley]

The show is just going to force Kate and  Phillip together. There is no way a superficial jackass like Philip would ever fall for Kate. The show will make him fall in love with her tho because she’s just such an irresistible Pearson. Puke. I like Chrissy Metz she seems nice but Kate is a miserable person.

[Rootbeer]

4 hours ago, MissLucas said:

She also worked as a singing telegram (or however you call that) - but I can't remember if that was a regular job.

Yes, after her gig as Kevin's assistant ended, Kate spent an episode or two as a professional singer despite not having had any training or experience in the field in at least 20 years.  She also auditioned to sing lead for a band and didn't get the gig and immediately decided that it was because of her weight and got snotty with the band's manager.  Then she heard the voice of the woman who did get the job and sang 1000x better than Kate, as even she realized.   After that, rather than get more training or experience, Kate gave up and went back to sitting at home waiting for something to happen.

I'm sure she never had a regular gig or salary as a singer, but Kate did probably earn a small amount of money during her ridiculous professional career.

[ams1001]

37 minutes ago, Marley said:

There is no way a superficial jackass like Philip would ever fall for Kate.

He's not superficial! He dumped his beautiful girlfriend because she wasn't interesting enough!

[Diana Berry]

On 4/6/2022 at 1:30 AM, UsernameFatigue said:

#FreeToby 

That is all. 

Hoping your wish will come true add to that he doesn’t give up his job.

[CrystalBlue]

13 minutes ago, Diana Berry said:

Hoping your wish will come true add to that he doesn’t give up his job.

Yes to this!  Since Kate has already emotionally checked out of her marriage, Toby will need that job to support his two children and be a weekend Dad every other weekend by flying to LA to see his kids.  Kate might get short-term spousal support, but only half of however long their marriage is from the date of separation, which will probably be right around the five-year forward when she conveniently marries Philip.

[desertflower]

On 4/5/2022 at 10:28 PM, Crs97 said:

What struck me was that when Kate told Toby she left the door unlocked, his reaction was to reassure her that it would be okay.  She went for the jugular against him, completely and conveniently forgetting she had any part in Jack’s injury.  I can’t believe the writers think she is a person we could root for.

This!! Up until now I’ve mostly been on team Toby but could still see some of Kate’s points in previous episodes. But when she went after him as though he was the only one at fault I lost all sympathy for her. He clearly was upset about the whole incident too and she couldn’t give him a little grace for a few freaking minutes before she started berating him again. 
Agree that little Jack is so adorable. Sweet little guy. 

[statsgirl]

3 hours ago, kili said:

And Toby will cut down working extra hours so that she can do her homework?

Toby's SF salary gives her options.  She could do her courses part-time so there's less pressure. She can hire help to clean and cook, that saves a lot of time.

Or like I did, after the kid's bedtime and the kitchen was cleaned (although I did have daytime childcare). The only time my husband would babysit is if I had a work deadline on my part-time job because his job was important.

It would be hard to move from LA to SF and leave behind her friends and everything comfortable but if teaching music to children is Kate's calling, this could be a very good opportunity for her. And accreditation could help her get a similar job if the current school closes or lays off.

Kate has skills but she's the one limiting herself (with herself from her brothers). It's like the swimming pool flashback, Kate wants to stay where she is safe (while Kevin tries beyond his current abilities).

Edited April 10, 2022 by statsgirl

[izabella]

2 hours ago, statsgirl said:

It would be hard to move from LA to SF and leave behind her friends and everything comfortable but if teaching music to children is Kate's calling, this could be a very good opportunity for her. And accreditation could help her get a similar job if the current school closes or lays off.

Kate has skills but she's the one limiting herself (with herself from her brothers). It's like the swimming pool flashback, Kate wants to stay where she is safe (while Kevin tries beyond his current abilities).

What are these skills she has?  Where did they come from?   Being an average singer does not make for a skilled music teacher.  Has Kate herself ever taken a single music lesson in her life?  Does she play an instrument of any kind?  I am mystified why she thinks she can teach music. 

[Jersey409]

17 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

It will seem quite rushed from an episode perspective even if it’s 5 years in the future til Kate’s wedding.

speaking of rushed- anyone think madison getting engaged to Elijah after 6 months is rushed and  stupid.  6 months is fast when you’re single and childless- I’d be even more cautious to marry if I had young children /babies.    

[Diana Berry]

1 hour ago, Jersey409 said:

speaking of rushed- anyone think madison getting engaged to Elijah after 6 months is rushed and  stupid.  6 months is fast when you’re single and childless- I’d be even more cautious to marry if I had young children /babies.    

I think it would make more sense re Elijah If they had said he’s always wanted to be a dad and a ready made family is perfect.  But in reality , he’s going to have a second person in their marriage for 18 years from the get go. 

[JKL845]

2 hours ago, Jersey409 said:

speaking of rushed- anyone think madison getting engaged to Elijah after 6 months is rushed and  stupid.  6 months is fast when you’re single and childless- I’d be even more cautious to marry if I had young children /babies.    

Not really. They're in their 40's. When you know, you know. They seem perfect for each other and I liked how happy she was at the idea. It's just an engagement at this point maybe it will be months until a wedding for them. 

[debraran]

1 hour ago, JKL845 said:

Not really. They're in their 40's. When you know, you know. They seem perfect for each other and I liked how happy she was at the idea. It's just an engagement at this point maybe it will be months until a wedding for them. 

Engaged doesn't mean they are getting married soon either. They way TIU FF time frames, they can be together a year in 2 weeks. My sister who got married twice said the second time they were more mature, knew and discussed things early on and didn't think waiting was needed. They were a 6 month, going on 10 years now wedding.

Having kids, I would hope they show or insinuate, they get along with Elijah but we already know they spend Thanksgiving together and I assume everyday we don't see her and Kevin in passing.

 

[debraran]

2 hours ago, Diana Berry said:

I think it would make more sense re Elijah If they had said he’s always wanted to be a dad and a ready made family is perfect.  But in reality , he’s going to have a second person in their marriage for 18 years from the get go. 

Yes, unrealistic for many men but he also has to have a Pearson in the family all that time. That is something to really consider. ; )

If TIU does have Madison marry, (they just say she's happy) I hope they have a court make sure some order in taking kids is there. The more full his life is the more that will be easier for him.

[Jersey409]

14 minutes ago, debraran said:

Engaged doesn't mean they are getting married soon either. They way TIU FF time frames, they can be together a year in 2 weeks. My sister who got married twice said the second time they were more mature, knew and discussed things early on and didn't think waiting was needed. They were a 6 month, going on 10 years now wedding.

Having kids, I would hope they show or insinuate, they get along with Elijah but we already know they spend Thanksgiving together and I assume everyday we don't see her and Kevin in passing.

 

I am happy for your sister. Like someone else mentioned, sometimes when you know, you just know.  I tend to err on the side of caution to get serious too quickly. When I think back on past relationships I’ve had, some stuff didn’t come out until at least a year later- debt, lies, and just overall tendencies and personalities that I didn’t like about the person.  
 

The character Elijah seems like a nice, chill guy and I guess they’ve known each other even longer from being in book club together. Small kids can change the whole dynamic of everything- even bring on jealousy/competition for attention from mom/girlfriend or dad/boyfriend. But then there are some people who treat their girlfriend/boyfriend’s kids better than the biological parent, so I guess it’s a gamble.

Can’t help but feel TIU  inserted this possible engagement for superficial  ***** and giggles just to keep us guessing. I still wouldn’t be surprised if Kevin ends up with Madison- they might make Elijah get sick or turn out to be a jerk.

It doesn’t help either that she is best friends with Kevin’s sister. If I were Elijah, the constant connection to Kevin and his family would annoy me.

[Jersey409]

3 hours ago, Diana Berry said:

I think it would make more sense re Elijah If they had said he’s always wanted to be a dad and a ready made family is perfect.  But in reality , he’s going to have a second person in their marriage for 18 years from the get go. 

Yeah, It doesn’t help either that she is best friends with Kevin’s sister. If I were Elijah, the constant connection to Kevin and his family would annoy me

[debraran]

20 minutes ago, Jersey409 said:

I am happy for your sister. Like someone else mentioned, sometimes when you know, you just know.  I tend to err on the side of caution to get serious too quickly. When I think back on past relationships I’ve had, some stuff didn’t come out until at least a year later- debt, lies, and just overall tendencies and personalities that I didn’t like about the person.  
 

The character Elijah seems like a nice, chill guy and I guess they’ve known each other even longer from being in book club together. Small kids can change the whole dynamic of everything- even bring on jealousy/competition for attention from mom/girlfriend or dad/boyfriend. But then there are some people who treat their girlfriend/boyfriend’s kids better than the biological parent, so I guess it’s a gamble.

Can’t help but feel TIU  inserted this possible engagement for superficial  ***** and giggles just to keep us guessing. I still wouldn’t be surprised if Kevin ends up with Madison- they might make Elijah get sick or turn out to be a jerk.

It doesn’t help either that she is best friends with Kevin’s sister. If I were Elijah, the constant connection to Kevin and his family would annoy me.

Yes she was more Kevin's age and her hubby was a widower with older children and a plumbing business so she knew he was "set" and didn't have debt etc. I am always skeptical by nature. My friend had a spouse with undisclosed debt which is why it's a good idea to keep money separate you had before. Being ashamed of debt is one thing but hiding it is a character flaw.

I hope Elijah is a good guy, having him not be is pretty crappy writing, very predictable and boring. I think the fact Kevin made a mistake and now has 2 kids is enough and having him take years to fall in love with the kids mother seems like filler to me and not something to tell your kids later. "I waited and waited for daddy to love me after we had a roll in the hay and one year passed, 2 years, then  behold when you were going to kindergarten he saw a flash of light and realized he did". Please enough of this "Kevin will see her that way" nonsense after years of not. His family knows it, he knows it, I agree with Justin who said not every situation is made perfect.

Edited April 10, 2022 by debraran

[Irate Panda]

If I were Toby, I’d also want to move to get away from Kate’s first “husband”, Kevin.  I really don’t see how Kate’s and Toby’s marriage is supposed to work because Kate rarely seems to understand how her codependency with Kevin is an issue.

I don’t particularly care for Toby, but I really don’t see why he’d be willing to stay in LA when the “best” reasons Kate gives is Jack knows where the park is and she has a part-time job.  She may stick with this job, but her history on the show is to give up on things rather easily or just do nothing to achieve her actual goals.  As many already mentioned, she’s not even qualified for the job she even wants.

 I think Kate wants “fat, depressed” Toby and Toby can’t realistically be that way anymore and survive. The actress Chrissy seems like a very likable person, but her character is miserable.  I hope that her leaving Toby will let the character blossom, maybe Rebecca’s speech inspires her to do so, but between the lashing out about the mattress and blaming Toby, when she was just as much at fault for Jack missing just shows she has some sort of built up resentment or anger against Toby and I feel like she’s already left him in her mind.  

There’s nothing wrong with growing apart and moving on, but it feels like the show wants to paint Toby as the “bad guy” and I just don’t see it and I don’t even really like Toby. I feel like we barely know the Kate character, but we are supposed to somehow rooting for her against all odds.  YMMV. 

Edited April 10, 2022 by Irate Panda

[peeayebee]

1 hour ago, Jersey409 said:

Yeah, It doesn’t help either that she is best friends with Kevin’s sister. If I were Elijah, the constant connection to Kevin and his family would annoy me

The twins are the constant connection to Kevin and his family.

Elijah and Madison are less than filler to me. She can marry Philip for all I care.

[nilyank]

17 hours ago, kili said:

Toby works long hours, spends hours at the gym, goes for daily 5 km jogs, and has numerous work parties to attend. That doesn't leave a lot of time for Kate or the kids.

Maybe in order to do the job remotely on the days that he is not in San Francisco, he has to spend those hours actually working those 2 days remote and some odd and end calls on the weekend. And maybe when he has to be in San Francisco, he fills his non-work hours going to the gym, jogs, work parties because his family are living hundred of miles away in Los Angeles.

If Kate and the kids move to San Francisco, he would no longer need to work remotely, doesn't need to spend all those hours flying back and forth between SF and LA, and have his family with him so he can spend his non-work time with them. I also think that Toby went to all those work party events for his career but alsp because it gave someplace where he could make social connections rather than staying in his lonely apartment or making new friends,

Edited April 10, 2022 by nilyank

[Guest]

I think overall the episode showed that neither one of them is right and neither one totally wrong- but they are at such an impasse they keep blaming each other. 

Toby didn’t latch the gate but Kate didn’t lock the door. Toby seemingly forgot about the plumbing issue once it had a temporary fix and Kate never commented on the growing water stain. 
Both of these things could easily happen even in overall healthy relationships. 
But letting your brothers disrespect your spouse by interfering in an argument? That crosses so many lines.

[Trillian]

9 hours ago, izabella said:

What are these skills she has?  Where did they come from?   Being an average singer does not make for a skilled music teacher.  Has Kate herself ever taken a single music lesson in her life?  Does she play an instrument of any kind?  I am mystified why she thinks she can teach music. 

I was about to write:. She has skills. She sings adequately enough to teach music to young children. My SIL is a teacher, specializing in music, for primary grades (K-3) and can’t sing nearly as well as Kate. 

And then I remembered:. SIL reads music, plays the piano beautifully, has a bachelor’s degree in music and another bachelor’s degree in education. 

So, never mind….

[Marley]

Elijah and Madison are a complete waste of time. The only reason they keep pushing Madison is because she’s married to Dan Fogelman. I don’t give a fuck what happens to her. Elijah is gross and weird too.

[mishap]

Well i just watched this episode.    

Is it their goal for us to hate the Big 3?